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You are at an amusement park, and you become seperated from your family. All you have with you is a cell phone and $10 with you. You pull out your phone, and notice that the batteries are almost dead. You try to make a call, but before you can tell your (friend, mom, dad, uncle, whoever you're with)
where you are, suddenly the phone is dead. you have enough money to buy a pack of AAA batteries, but you cant put them in your phone!
Thats where my idea comes in.
Imagine a cell phone that uses AAA batteries. Why would you not want it? and dont say "coz I dont want to spend more money on regular batteries all the time". What if the phone included a set of *RECHARGEABLE triple-A batteries? (and a charger, of course:) As an added bonus, maybe the phone could still have a traditional phone charge-cord, and have the ability to charge the AAA batteries while they are still in the phone. Then you've got the best of both worlds. Besides, a 4-pack of RECHARGEABLE AAA batteries often only costs $10!
The only potential problem would be that the phone would have to have either some sort of protection to prevent applying a charge current to non rechargeable batteries, because this has a tendancy to cause them to blow up. I dont know if rechargeable batteries have a slightly different electrical resistance to a "charge current" than disposables, but if they do, maybe the phone could some how detect it? Or maybe put a big red warning label on the back or something so that no one could sue the company!
Another advantage is that you could simply carry an extra set of batteries with you, of course. the back of the phone would be easily "openable" and would not require a screwdriver. most phones allow you to simply pop the back off allready, but I have never seen one that takes AAA's.
One possible reason is that since the batteries that many phones use are custom made by manufacturer, the batteries can be made to seamlessly fit any number of phone designs. However, many phones are thick enough to make this idea workable. I know that there are external packs that accept AAA or AA batteries and plug in to the charger port, but the idea here is to have the phone be made to accept AAA batteries WITHOUT accessories! My phone requires 3 volts to operate. If it ran on AAA batteries, it would only need 2. Some of the more ambitious phones may need 3 or 4 batteries.
EDIT: I believe that the phone would be better if
1. it still could accept AAAs
BUT
2. it came with a special phone battery that could be used in lieu of AAA batteries-somehow it would fit into the same compartment. somehow.
3. to satisfy Custardguts, the phone would have a "rubber membrane" keypad (think a sheet with raised bumps as the keys that you press on) to make it more water-resistant and
4. the phone would be built out of the same type of plastic that is used to build portable CD players, Gameboys, etc.
There you have it- a phone that accepts EITHER AAA batteries OR special phone batteries, still fits into an average pocket (dont believe me? hold 3 AAA batteries next to your phone. Even the RAZR is only too thin for AAAs by a small amount)
AND has longer battery life than a slimmer phone with the same features (if you're using the special phone batteries that were included, that is) AND is more rugged than most cell phones have been.
Emergency Cell Phone Charger
http://www.portable...om/products_new.php
...uses AA batteries, not AAA, but same difference. And no special phone needed. [DrCurry, Apr 28 2008]
Cellboost
http://www.cellboos...duct_cellphones.htm
Ok, not exactly a 'battery' but it plugs directly into the phone's charging port w/o wire and provides 60 minutes of power. [21 Quest, Apr 29 2008]
Voltage curves
http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm
[Texticle, Apr 29 2008]
Climbers call for help on cell phone
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/
Searchers were attempting to triangulate ping before cell phone died. [Klaatu, Apr 30 2008]
1000 MAH AAA batteries
http://www.staples....10944&ci_sku=632622
OOPS! I meant 1000 MAH. My mistake. Please disreguard all my claims about 2000 MAH AAA batteries (unless you come across any, in which case, please link) [Dickcheney6, May 25 2008]
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maybe just a small cylinder that one
battery slides into for emergency
calls. it could multiply the voltage to what
it needed and the call could be 10
minutes, tops. |
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[crazyrog17], I know of at least one phone that does just that. |
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//you could simply carry an extra set of batteries with you, of course//
That was my first reaction to the idea. But not AAAs. I have three extra off-brand batteries that fit my phone. They're so small, I can carry a spare. |
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It's a guess, but maybe the phone manufacturers don't need the liability of people trying to recharge or operate with just any old battery (alkaline? NiMH? NiCad?) or combination of them. |
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No, the problem is size and power density. New phones use Li-Ion batteries that are thin and flat. This works well with an audience who want thin flat phones. Phones are made of one circuit board with all the brains, then maybe one more which is the keyboard and then that thin flat battery on the back. AAA batteries are Ni-Mh and don't hold nearly the power of Li-Ion. The reason they don't sell Li-Ion AA or AAA batteries over the counter is because of the special way they need to be charged or they explode.
So to make your phone, you'd have to build the phone around the battery. So now instead of one circuit board, you'd need two stacked placed next to the battery. Then a circuit that detects the voltage of the battery used and then up it to what the phone needs. Batteries are made up of individual cells whose chemistry decides the voltage. Alkaline batteries are 1.5V, Ni-Mh are 1.2V. Li-ion are something else. The battery in this phone is 3.7V. |
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So I'd say do what I do, buy an extra battery and keep it in your pocket. They are thin and easy to carry around. |
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This was Baked on a range of Motorola handsets in the early '00s, but has now fallen out of favour for the reasons [MisterQED} so concisely states. |
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I have an emergency charger that thats 1 AA battery. Its universal, but my phone takes mini-USB 5v. Has enough juice for a few calls. |
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Im bunning this because there is probably a market for your phone. Its practical. |
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I have seen external packs that use AA or AAA batteries to power your phone. If it's posible to do that externally, then it could surely be done internally. The idea here is to have the phone use AAA batteries that are already available, not use a new type of AAA battery that is equivalent to LI-ION batteries. Who says the phone cant take 2 or 3 AAA batteries? it doesnt have to be just one! duuuh! besides, even the special rechargeable batteries that my phone uses are 3V. that means that 2 AAA batteries could easily power it. 1 AAA battery puts out 1.5 volts. that means that 2 batteries put out 3 volts. that would be enough to power the phone. I know that usually the phone's batteries are actually 3.7 volts, but my phone works perfectly until the batteries are totally discharged. (by "my phone" I dont mean the hypothetical design, I mean my RAZR phone) by the time it reaches the status where the phone gives a low battery warning, i would guess its less than 1/4 the normal voltage output by that point. Of course this wouldnt work for super slim phones (like the razer)! But what about the phones that ARENT super slim? I think it could still fit in your pocket! who says it has to be so dang small anyway! AAA batteries arent even that thick. Can't you fit an AAA-powered PDA in your pocket??? If not you must have pretty small pockets. If, on the other hand, you already have,say, your wallet in your pocket and cant squeeze in anything else, you could always buy a belt clip! or the phone could simply include a belt clip! :) |
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9V batteries are attachable by small clips which nicely attach to the end of the battery. I therefore suggest that in the battery compartment (behind the back cover) there is one of these 9V battery connectors, either directly attached below the existing battery (so the 9V would be perpendicular to the phone) or on a short flexible wire. This would allow the purchase of a 9V battery and its attachment, not for general use but merely for emergency use. |
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The advantage of the 9V battery is the attachment size as it does not need to attach to both 'ends' of the AA or AAA type. |
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I see your point on the 9v battery idea, vince, and I understand the advantage. However, the phone would be rather bulky, even more so than if it used AAA batteries. Also, a 9v battery would potentially fry your average cell phone. I have never seen a cell phone whose operating voltage is 9v. I also really hate 9v battery "snap" connecters, they are a pain in the *ss to insert/remove, and I think that "snap" connecters, particularly the ones that are on wires, are less durable than a traditional "spring" connector that would be on an AAA-powered device. Thats only my personal opinion. |
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/I know that usually the phone's batteries are actually 3.7 volts, but my phone works perfectly until the batteries are totally discharged. (by "my phone" I dont mean the hypothetical design, I mean my RAZR phone) by the time it reaches the status where the phone gives a low battery warning, i would guess its less than 1/4 the normal voltage output by that point./ |
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Not really. Check out the voltage curves for various battery chemistries. |
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//However, the phone would be rather bulky//
Dickcheney6 - the point with the 9v is that it is for emergency use - remove the flat flat battery and click in a 9v. The phone will (now) be bulky and have a battery sticking out the back; but this is an emergency and I doubt you care about that right now. |
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You are right about the voltage; it would to be knocked down - nothing which can't be done easily enough. |
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Nevertheless, I still like your idea. |
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I never understood the "thinner and smaller is better" mindset. As long as it fits in my pocket (the size of my largish wallet) I'm happy. Whats the point? "The new nanophone! You can't find it, but thats okay because its only three molecules wide! I, for one, want to pay a whole lot less for a bigger phone that just makes calls. Well, maybe a phone book, but thats it. Phone book and calls. |
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If this idea were to include a connector for putting a 9V connector on the bottom of phones under a little cover that would then serve to hold the battery in place, I would be all for it. |
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It would cost little or nothing to implement, (9V connector and zenor diode to drop voltage), it wouldn't make the basic phone any bigger, or only a sliver longer. Then when the battery went dead, you pop off the bottom cover, click on the battery and the 9V would recharge your original battery and give you lots of time out of a single store bought emergency battery. |
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But sadly, I believe [Voice] is in the minority. People want TINY phones. I handle phones for my company and I can't even get people in the warehouse to like the rough service phones (Verizon G'z One). They are too big and they still aren't big enough to fit a pair of AAA batteries. People think belt pouches are for Batman. |
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The thing with AAA batteries is that you can get rechargeable ones. My idea is not for the phone to have special phone batteries and accept AAA batteries in a seperate slot, but for the phone to use AAA batteries as it's primary power source. Then you would have no issues with trying to locate replacement rehcargeable phone batteries when they stop holding a charge. Even rechargeable AAA batteries are much easier to find than special phone batteries, even if not as widely available as disposables. Also, RECHARGEABLE AAA batteries are cheaper than the special kinds of batteries that are used in current cell phones. once again most phone batteries put out 3.7 volts when fully charged. 2 AAA batteries total up to 3 volts. 3 volts would still be enough- most phones function normally until they are totally discharged, even if there is a sudden downturn for the worst like that other guy mentioned. AAA batteries dont do that, anyway. As they die, they steadily decline rather than slowly declining, then at a certain point suddenly dropping to zero. Rechargeable triple A batteries dont do that, nor do throwaway ones. i dont think it would be too difficult for the phone to be able to charge rechargeable triple a batteries when plugged in. If it really was that hard to implement, the manufacturer of the phone could always throw in an AAA battery charger. They're not that expensive. |
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Sadly, cell phone (and camera) manufacturers make a large chunk of change from selling things like batteries. Which is why they're all different, model to model. |
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What about this- THe phone still uses some sort of battery pack that attaches via some sort of plug, and sits in the middle of the battery compartment. But, there are also contacts for AAA batteries in the same- all you have to do is remove the battery pack (and unplug it). Then you have the benefit of being able to charge the phone by simply plugging it in, but still able to use AAA batteries, so you can carry an extra set, or use your own rechargeables if you dont want to buy a $30 phone battery pack. Then you've got the best of both worlds. |
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I'm afraid I must bone this idea for 4 reasons, three of which have already been stated and one which I decline to say because it might make me look bad. |
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Just kidding! That would be cowardly of me (although 3 have been stated already). The 3 reasons are as follows: |
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1) phone would draw complaints and criticism (sp?) for being too bulky. |
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2) phone would draw complaints for having too short battery life. |
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3) this is already baked in the form of a pocket-size charger that holds triple-A's. All you gotta do is plug it into your phone. Also baked by Cellboost (tm) batteries, which are simply pre-charged spare cellphone batteries that hold a charge that's good for one hour. |
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4) I really hate Dick Cheney. |
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(note: this last is merely meant as a poke in the ribs, and did not influence my voting decision in any way, although it is an accurate statement.) |
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(note 2: I've added a link to the Cellboost website.) |
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Oh, BTW, my RAZR has a sort of "chin" right below where the screen closes. What if that part was just a smidge longer? then the side of that part could just slide open, allowing you to put 2 AAA batteries in there. The result? the phone would still be "thin and flat" but now able to take AAA batteries. There would now actually be more space for circuits, without having to have that large battery pack. (the phone would include NIMH AAA batteries, then be able to charge them when the phone is plugged in) Remember, 2 AAA batteries = 3 volts. Enough to still power the phone, even though phone battery packs are often 3.7 volts. As I mentioned before, most phones continue to funtion until its totally discharged. Mine, for example, shows no sign of malfunction until theres only like 3 minutes of life left in the batteries, at which point the screen is somewhat dark. The only problem is that when its running out of batteries, it has this really annoying alarm that cant be muted without turning off the phone. |
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By the way, welcome to the HB, Dc6! My first idea drew a lot more harsh criticism than yours has so far, so good for you, and keep it up! |
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//2) phone would draw complaints for having too short battery life.// |
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I dis agree. I have a PSP and got one of those external things that you tape to the back and put 2 AA batteries in it, then it powers your PSP. The screen is actually brigter than when its running on the PSP's internal batteries. this means that "normal" batteries actually put out more power than that. Also, MAH ratings tell you how long the batteries will last. I have seen AA rechargeable batteries that are over 2000 MAH. A set of RAZR batteries is only 700 MAH! (this is motorola's OEM batteries, I dont know about 3rd party ones) I know what MAH means. The higher the MAH, the longer it lasts. AAA batteries are only 1000 MAH but still thats more than 700, so slightly better battery life. |
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mAh, or milliamp-hours does not take into account cell voltage. Yes, you can get NiMH AA's that are 2000mAh, or 2.4 Watt-hours at the nominal 1.2V. Your phone uses a Lithium cell, which has a higher nominal voltage, say 3.7V. So 900mAh from your phone's battery is 3.33Watt-hours. |
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So 2x 2000mAh AA's will give more energy than your phone's battery, however the voltage characteristics (again I hint that you study the dsicharge curves) won't be the same, and it would be a lot more bulky. |
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Why would it be so much more bulky? it would simply be a matter of having a place to insert AAA batteries. You say it would be "alot more bulky" first of all it would not be THAT much bigger, and second of all, whats wrong with it being slightly thicker or longer! WHen I say the piece below where the screen folds down, I assumed you knew how a razr was built. The "chin" piece or bottom piece is thick enough, just not long enough. if it were just a tad longer, it would not be that much bigger and it would be big enough to have the slots for 2 AAA batteries in that area. the side part of the bottom piece would simply come open, exposing the battery compartment. Or, there could be a back plate that came off. The circuits that would be displaced by having the slot there, could now be moved to the empty space which, in the "real" razr, would have been occupied by the phone's special batteries. Just put a smaller trapdoor for the sim-card. 2 AAA batteries = 3 volts. Need I say it again? I am getting tired of expaining battery voltage. its simple. each AAA battery puts out 1.5 volts. put 2 together in the same device and you get 3 volts. That's only 0.7 volts below your average phone batteries. 0.7 volts would not cause a phone to totally stop functioning. If that were true, your phone would not even be able to gauge the battery remaining because as soon as the voltage dropped even slighly the phone would die. But it's not like that. Also I dont understand what Texticle means by "voltage curves". |
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Maybe you shouldn’t be so emphatic in your assertions. Take the time to investigate counterclaims and objections. Enough fatherly advice. |
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Link added re: voltage curves. |
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Note that 3.0V for a Li cell means she is totally flat. Your phone therefore will not work down to 3.0V, and in fact it probably has a low voltage shutdown (i.e. the phone turns itself off) well in excess of that, to prevent battery damage due to excessive discharge. |
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Your phone might determine remaining battery by measuring voltage, and fitting this data to the curve. The flattish nature of the curve makes super-accurate estimation difficult, but it’s probably good enough for the purpose in question. |
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More accurate measures require more accurate methods, but I won’t go into those here. |
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AAA Batteries are too big to fit inside mobile phones. Unless you make the phone huge like they used to be in the early 90s. Also, NiMH has a lower power density than Li-ion. |
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I don't see the point of this idea. Modern phones can go for a week without recharging. How often do they run out of juice these days? Almost never. Is this worth the inconvenience of carrying around brick that doesn't fit in your pocket? No. Just carry a spare battery if this is such a problem. [-] |
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Wouldn't it be easier to create a cradle on the back of the phone for a second Li+ battery? It could shield the battery terminals and provide storage. Since Li+ batteries only lose 5-10% of stored power per month, it seems that this would provide adequate power in an emergency. You could even have the cradle so that you could switch charging between the primary, and the spare. Less bulky and longer battery life in an emergency. Sure would have helped the climbers who died on Mt. Hood in 2006. |
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[Dickcheney6], you need to decide whether you want to learn something here or just yell at people, telling them that they are stupid because they aren't getting it. |
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People may choose not to indulge you in both. |
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//AAA Batteries are too big to fit inside mobile phones. Unless you make the phone huge like they used to be in the early 90s.// |
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Manicdictator, aaa batteries would not increase the size of the phone by that much. Sure it would end up being thicker, but It wouldnt be a huge-*ss brick of a phone like the really old phones were. If you don't believe me, hold 3 AAA batteries near your phone. Unless you have a samsung juke, the phone isnt that much skinnier. Also, even if this idea ever actually got baked, there would still be phones made that had special rechargeable batteries to allow them to be skinnier. That would satisfy people who want really thin phones. For people who would be willing to trade off the small size for triple-a battery operation, this will be OK for them. Also, what stops the manufacturer from including rechargeable triple-a batteries with their phone. Then it would be rehcargeable like cell phones are now and always have been, but would still be able to use any old batteries that you find laying around. Rechargeable triple A batteries (yes rechargeable ones) only cost $10 for a 4-pack. |
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Rechargable NiMH AAAs are only 700mAh which is 2.5Wh (at 3.6V for 3 cells). This is 75% of your phone’s capacity (3.33Wh from earlier). Now consider that 3 AAAs will require an enclosure at least 1mm thick, which will be a cuboid of 46.5x33.5x12.5mm size (1.8x1.3x0.5 inch). It’s a cuboid because the gaps in between cylindrical cells are generally not useful for anything, i.e. there is a form factor inefficiency inherent with cylindrical cells. |
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Now consider removing the no-doubt slim line battery pack from your current phone, and replacing it with the cuboid described. Pretty bulky, no? Now consider convincing the head honchos at Nokiarollason that this behemoth is acceptable as their new model, given that: |
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1. Like it or not, their customer base want small phones. As you have a RAZR it is clear that you are somewhat swayed by fashion, and whipping out an AAA-powered brick at the mall, discotechnic, or wherever youths hang out is unlikely to win admiration from your peers. |
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2. Nokiarollason want to be viewed as technically advanced and at the forefront of fashion. Does a bigger phone with only 75% the capacity of the previous model fit this requirement? |
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Manufactures of cell phones and now many personal music listening devices (ie, I-pods, famous brand mp-3 players, and the like) design with specially configured batteries in mind, to increase income as batteries require replacement usually 18 months or so after purchase. Its part of the after-sale business plan of many companies. In fact, many of the specially configured batteries are patented to prevent competition forcing the phone owner to buy the (expensive) replacement battery only from the manufacture again…and again. Of course, manufactures of cell phones and personal listening devices could design their products with off-the-shelf or standard batteries, but they would loose the after-sales income. That is bad for their bottom line. As their design engineer designing for a standard battery, you would be booted out of work. |
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You, as the consumer could select a product that uses standard configured batteries where there is competition among vendors to force the price downward for your battery replacement. The manufactures still exit if you carefully select your product. But then, you would most likely have to buy a not too famous brand cell-phone or portable listening device. Then, how would you be able to impress your friends? |
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The reason newer phones have long runtime on batteries is because the manufacturer is able to build the phone "around" the batteries that they are planning to use. Also, special rechargeable batteries can be made in several different shapes. This allows them to use every possible area in the phone for the batteries. In essence, they are "molding" the batteries into the battery compartment. I understand the disadvantage with the space between standard AAA batteries, but they are skinny enough so that it would not make much difference. |
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Let's agree to disagree on this one. |
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//Let's agree to disagree on this one.// |
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You're saying AAA batteries, despite their lower capacity and increased physical bulk, would be acceptable in a cellular phone. I, on the other hand, disagree. |
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As long as it fits in your pocket the market would exist for such a phone. Maybe it would not be as popular as the phones that are small, but it would still be somewhat "pocketable". There are many things that use AAA batteries that fit into your pocket- PDA's, anyone? What about MP3 players? (yes I know lots of mp3 players are rechargeable, but that's not what we're covering) |
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//Rechargable NiMH AAAs are only 700mAh//
??????? You need to get out more. They are way better than they used to be. You can get rechargeable AAA batteries that are 1000 MAH. In fact, that is actually MORE MAH than most cell phone batteries! 3 AAA batteries will put out 3.6 volts. that's roughly the average cell phone voltage. Even though it is not exactly the same, it's only lower by .1 volts (do the math) I think it's highly unlikely that the circuits of a cell phone designed for 3.7 would be unable to function because of .1 volt LOWER, and it certainly would NOT damage the phone- it's a LOWER voltage! |
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Oh, one more thing- AAA batteries do not suddenly "drop off" (i.e. sutain a certain "final voltage" then suddenly collapse) like cell phone batteries do. Think about it- when LI batteries get to a certain point (I think it's 3.5 volts of total out put) , they will sustain that voltage then suddenly go dead. At this "final point before drop off" is the level at which your phone will say "low battery" and in some cases beep every 30 seconds (which is really annoying) but your phone will in most cases continue to funtion, then suddenly go dead. AAA batteries don't do that. That means the phone will still be able to work below 3 volts. That would increase the amount of time that the phone would be able to function. |
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Yes, normal ones may not have enough power for a phone after they altogether only are putting out 2V for example, but they dont suddenly "drop off" like LI batteries do. I think it's actually kind of hard on the phone to be merrily chugging along then suddenly losing power altogether with no warning. |
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Sure, if your cell phone used rechargeable AAA batteries, it may not last a week between charges like it would if it used LI batteries, but as long as you plug it in at night it should be no problem. If you forget to plug it in one night, then you could simply swap out the batteries. (which is the whole point of this idea in the first place:) |
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Oh god, someone just bash this seal, will you? The point's moot, get over it. |
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Energy density is better with Li-Po or Li-Ion batteries. If you make a phone with a 3-AAA battery compartment, someone will make a 3-AAA sized Li-Po or Li-Ion battery that will outperform your puny AAA's. |
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I think that from your feedback here, there will be limited market for your phone. Obviously you have a bee in your bonnet - take a breath and quit digging before you hit the bedrock. |
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My $0.02 is that you'd have a better market making a tough, shock/water/chemical/scratch proof phone with a large capacity battery, for industrial use. I go through a phone every two months or so, just by general attrition. We, as a business seem unable to get ahold of anything remotely durable in the way of phones. Nokia used to make a line of reasonably tough ones <even the 3000-series bricks were pretty tough> but now, one drop from waist height and shebang. Dead phone. We need one with rubber armour, o-ring seals and a scratchproof tempered pyrex screen. Boof-o. |
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Get me one like that and you will be showered with pastry. |
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1) write down your friends phone numbers in a little book. |
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2) next time your phone runs out find a payphone. |
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It is true that you might not be able to find a payphone, but it is also true that you might not be able to find AAA batteries. |
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If you are really paranoid you can always carry spare batteries. |
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//if you are really paranoid you can always carry extra batteries// which is the whole point of this idea. You said at the beginning of your comment "better idea" or whatever. |
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/You can get rechargeable AAA batteries that are 2000 MAH/ |
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After looking around I found that you can get AA batteries around 2500 MAH but not AAA batteries. The highest I saw was 1000 MAH. But, that's more than 700 MAH. I don't intend to sound like a broken record, but Higher MAH = longer battery life. Yes, the voltage of each AAA battery is only 1.2 volts, but 3 together = 3.6 volts. Ta-da. you can now power a cell phone. So what if it doesnt last almost a week between charges. just remember to plug it in over night. If you forget, you can just swap the batteries out, which is pretty much the point of this idea in the first place. |
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You're determined, I'll give you that. |
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I respectfully refer you to every one of my previous annotations. Replace 700mAh with 1000 if you must. |
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