h a l f b a k e r y
Renovating the wheel
idea:
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, best, random
meta:
news, help, about, links, report a problem
account:
Browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
Login
Create account.
|
|
| Please log in.
If you're not logged in,
you can see what this page
looks like, but you will
not be able to add anything.
Take a cone, nip the end off and stick a windmill generator at the small end. Place the cone inside a cylinder and fill the gap between cone and cylinder with helium. Attach a rope and let it loft itself up to a decent altitude for catching/concentrating the wind and producing electricity.
The
cone funnels and concentrates the wind, producing more power.
Also note that most of the helium has been placed where it's needed the most (in the area where the windmill is).
Airborne wind turbine
http://en.wikipedia...rborne_wind_turbine
[xaviergisz, Apr 29 2008]
The Beauty of Kite/Sail Windpower
http://www.youtube....watch?v=FHkAL1jTojY
new understanding of how Ancient Egyptians harness the forces of nature to accomplish their magnificent monuments [rotary, May 01 2008]
Sky Sail
http://www.youtube....?v=a8qeKslrqeY&NR=1
Reduce fuel consumption [rotary, May 01 2008]
Airship Wind Turbine Tested
http://images.googl...%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
Link includes several companies working on the idea [Pellepeloton, May 29 2008]
Magenn Air Rotor System
http://www.magenn.com/
Baloon power generation in prototype phase [clamwich, May 29 2008]
Innovative Idea Integration
Wind_20Turbine
more innovation introduced in [Trodden]'s Wind Turbine [rotary, May 29 2008]
Short name, e.g., Bob's Coffee
Destination URL.
E.g., http://www.coffee.com/
Description (displayed with the short name and URL.)
|
| |
I'm not at all sure you can make a lighter-than-air wind turbine, even with the aid of helium. But if you can, then I would imagine that you could simply use a kite structure to achieve the same end, no helium required. |
|
| |
I guess the advantage would be that this would stay aloft when the wind died down. |
|
| |
//simply use a kite structure// |
|
| |
The point is the cone-inside-a-cylinder design is that the cone funnels the wind, speeding it up, and, being inside a cylinder, most of the (helium's) lifting power is where it's need the most (in the same vertical plane as the generator). I don't see any reason not to make the dirigible large enough to carry the windmill |
|
| |
The cone really does not help you in this instance, you need to be moving fast enough that the incoming air exceeds the normal back pressure of the turbine(normally this involves a speed of at least 140mph this is the same principle as is erroneously applied to "ram Air" intakes on street cars most of which could never go fast enough to actually see a net increase in intake pressure), in this application what you really want is high Volume/low pressure. You want Cubic feet so that you can maintain a steady rotation rate on the rotor and produce even, stable power in a variety of wind conditions. |
|
| |
[jh] I don't get you. On the ground, windmills are situated where the air is concentrated by the landscape so there's a greater velocity... what's the difference between that and making an artificial concentrator ? |
|
| |
Wind turbines are not placed at concentrators as you say it but rather they are placed at locations where there is regular and steady wind. This normally means ridge lines or on valley floors depending on the region and the terrain. These terrain features may direct the wind to some degree but they do not focus the wind to a tight area or increase its speed. The concept of air injectors or collectors(Ram Air induction) is well understood. If you have two funnels one that is 3 feet wide and one that is 1 foot wide and both narrow to an identical throat then the volume of flow is dependent only on the dept of the water in the funnels, the area of the opening has no bearing on the discharge pressure. |
|
| |
The same situation occurs with an air intake in that case the dependent variable is the velocity at the discharge and the pressure(mass) of the air being discharged, once the volume of air exceeds the capacity of the throat of the funnel any excess air will spill out of the funnel and create a constant pressure zone inside the funnel that at any normal windspeed might be a fraction of a PSI. As long as the wind pressure is below the point where it exceeds the back pressure on the funnel air will spill out and the flow in the funnel will remain effectively static, once wind pressure exceeds back pressure you then begin to compress the air in the funnel to higher pressures which results in an increase in the mass of the air being discharged through the throat. |
|
| |
While all of this would seem to imply that the bigger the cone the higher the pressure in reality the net effective change in velocity is really very very small at normal wind speeds this might only be 1% increase. Thus the cone does not help you in any real way unless wind speed exceeds 150+ miles per hour. |
|
| |
If we could somehow solve the problem of unassisted relaunch, I'm with DrCurry in thinking the kite option is still worth investigating.
After all, if the wind dies down, the wind turbine itself won't be all that useful either. |
|
| |
This is just a minor detail though ("how does it lift itself?") and doesn't have to affect the rest of the construction. |
|
| |
Is there enough helium to scale this up? The price of helium has doubled over the past year, in track with natural gas. |
|
| |
Something seems amiss, jh. |
|
| |
Say if you were to put two identical wind turbines on a large wing, for example, one on the top and one at the bottom, and then compare their radial speed, which one would win? Isn't this what FlyingToaster is after by putting windmills on a hill? |
|
| |
A Balloon Assisted Wind-power deployed in the jetstream as a recharge base of future electrically powered flying crafts? |
|
| |
[jh] The basic concept is a windmill held up by a balloon (baked alot I imagine); the funnel thing, even if it doesn't produce substantially more power is still a fit because it provides for a good windvane effect in all 3 dimensions. |
|
| |
[django] I think we'll be seeing a move back to Hydrogen from Helium, for unmanned devices at least. |
|
| |
[RS] neither, I imagine: the wind on top is faster but at lower pressure. |
|
| |
Wind gets funneled all the time. Think of the wind paterns in cities.If the wind "fills" the cone it will over flow but if the wind is slow it would increase the speed at the turbine. They are starting to design sails for windmills that will funnel more wind to the turbines for just this reason. |
|
| |
Search 'funnel-augmented wind turbine' for a short list of failures, a succinct explanation as to why (physics, she be a harsh mistress) and a long list of crackpot ideas to persist with it. "If only we could get the funding..." |
|
| |
I would like this idea to progress somehow. [FlyingToaster], would you mind if I suggest your balloon should be modified so it would double as a kite to keep the line tighter and more vertical when the wind is strong? One unique advantage is that you could device a wave generator with the flapping of the kite/sail. |
|
| |
//wave generator with the flapping of the kite/sail//
Um, no, if you go to the trouble of adding a lifting surface, it won't be flapping; if it is, that's an inefficiency that is not generating lift, which defeats the purpose. |
|
| |
Oh, [neutrinos_shadow], you missed my point. For more information about kite power, see link. |
|
| |
[rotary] - you sort of made 2 points:
1: Kite to help keep balloon up
2: Generating extra power from kite-sail flapping
Point 1 is good - kytoons are an old idea, an easilty applicable to this idea.
Point 2 is not good - a flapping sail is inefficient, not to mention damaging to itself.
Don't worry, I know all about kite power, the Sky Sail, etc. I've been a power kite flier for many years (mostly kite jumping and buggying).
PS: Good to see you're getting the hang of how things work around here (ie. it's not all about rotary engines...). |
|
| |
oh, [neutrinos_shadow]. It is right that not all are rotary, so you better catch up THE IDEA behind the undulating kite. The most simple hydraulic pump is the hydraulic ram pump (although it waste a lot) and is cyclic but not rotary. The most effective electric power transmission is AC (although it is hazardous) and it is sinusoidal. |
|
| |
It is same there at the windy air above. (Please take note that the anchor is stationary, you cannot equate that with kite jumping or sky sail wherein the tension in the rope is fairly constant.) You cannot derive power at the base of the cable without the undulating movement of the kite. |
|
| |
The idea is this: The wind turbine captures energy by virtue of ROTATION, the wave generator further augments power generation by virtue of CYCLE/STROKE. (Pls. take note I do not intend the cycle to go beyond the red line, but should be at the safest frequency to extend the life cycle.) |
|
| |
/The most effective electric power transmission is AC/ |
|
| |
Is this a fact new to science? |
|
| |
I thought AC was handy because you can change voltage with 'simple' transformers. Long distance A to B transmission is done with HVDC in my experience, because the benfits of DC outweigh the advantages of AC in these applications. |
|
| |
/AC (although it is hazardous)/ |
|
| |
More hazardous, Joule for Joule, than DC? |
|
| |
This idea would be great when integrated with the innovation I introduced in [Trodden]’s Wind Turbine idea. The result is a wind-harvesting column reinforced and lifted by slender, funneling side-balloons. See link to [Trodden]’s post. |
|
| |
the actual shape of the dirigible is cylindrical on the outside and um, conal on the inside, with lifting gas in between cylinder and cone, and the windmill at the far end, in the truncated tip of the cone (the "coolness" being that most of the lifting gas is right where most of the weight is, ie: the windmill). Depending on the weight of the windmill and aerodynamics, the "cylinder" might actually be more of a truncated cone, itself) |
|
| |