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Partly rant, partly good idea.
You're interviewing candidates for a team position and you need yet another test that will somehow extract evidence that the interviewee knows what they are talking about above and beyond googling for "common interview questions".
So you make them a cake, well ok,
just a piece of paper with labelled dots all over it. Each dot being a concept used in the business in question e.g. Data collection from pressure sensors, a video feed, GUI library, CMS, customer business logic, performance, face recognition, db abstraction layer, state logic, blah blah.
You hand them a pair of scissors with a post-it reading "Don't run with scissors" stuck to the closed blades, and ask them to read every label and then start dividing the cake.
During the process, you continually ask 'why?' which divulges huge amounts of information on their opinions about concept synergy and their domain knowledge / preferences.
A second round of cutting the cake could be done to see if they have learned anything. You add team size for this step to limit the number of cuts.
The interview ends with politely asking for the scissors back and optionally handing them one piece as a souvenir.
This is what I think of your idea
http://www.youtube....kwo&feature=related
[zeno, Mar 24 2009]
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Any job where this is an adequate assessment of teamwork ability or job compatibility should be avoided like the plague. I would walk out if an interviewer proposed this. Where on earth did you get this idea? Do you make people do this sort of tosh on a regular basis? Having problems finding good employees/teammates? No mystery there.... |
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Again much slagging off from WcW without any explanation. This 'tosh' is a very valid way of diagnosing the maturity of a programmer and could be used in conjunction with other personality, programming knowledge, IQ tests etc. |
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Beats a blood test and handwriting analysis. |
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I'm not sure that demonstrating my ability to cut a bit of paper up would give a prospective employer much insight into my programming or software engineering abilities. [-] |
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hippo, I'm surprised. Anyone who immediately cuts between performance and state logic is someone who is going to save the business money. Admittedly the test is open ended and cannot be failed, but you certainly get to know who you are talking with and whether they can be trusted with a small slice, a big one or a whole team (from a technical standpoint). |
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This will not work for engineers, we would just eat the cake. mmmmmmm...... |
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//we would just eat the cake// |
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Hungry, hungry tortoise ... here's a large technical manual. |
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tasty facts in bite sized chapters. I love it. |
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So there's some meaning associated with cutting
between "data collection from pressure sensors"
and "a video feed". If so, you haven't given any
clue to what that meaning might be. It sounds
like you're looking for an indoctrinated person. |
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If you want someone who cares about software,
you should select the person who stabs you with
the scissors. |
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So is there any relation to the "how many pingpong balls can you fit in a schoolbus, and how would you determine the answer?" school of interviewing? |
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Knowing my share of programmers, I think [colorclocks] does have a point there - two of them, actually. This test should use the child scissors with rounded tips. |
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colorclocks, the test is interactive and you can ask questions. It's a way both to present the business domains involved and to interact with them in the interview, rather than a boring lecture about the products. |
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"data collection from pressure sensors" could be a red herring, a low bandwidth job e.g. purely a tenth of a second is someone standing infront of a camera thing. Whereas the video feed and face recognition would at least need an efficient API piping data between them (not db based). |
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The only 'indoctrinated' aspect of most companies is that they do in fact operate in one business domain e.g. security software or retail terminals, and every employee must be willing to be 'indoctrinated' into that vein of thinking or they aren't worth hiring. |
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//If you want someone who cares about software, you should select the person who stabs you with the scissors.// |
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I'd prefer the one who takes their software seriously but cares enough to want to turn you a profit. Homicidal prima donnas need not apply. |
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you can cut a cake with scissors? |
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//This test should use the child scissors with rounded tips.// |
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Reading the annos, my past experiences don't seem that bad now. |
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I think a large fraction of good candidates would be offended by this exercise, while quite a few sycophants and Yes men would be thrilled. The candidate is going to ask "why" what is your answer? |
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Why don't you have each candidate cook a metaphorical pizza or draw a farm with different animals representing an Org. chart? |
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//"why" what is your answer? // |
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I'm still not getting why the avalanche of negative comments and zero explanations of why it wouldn't work in reality. Let's start with |
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//I think a large fraction of good candidates would be offended by this exercise// |
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Why would a candidate be offended about asking them about programming and how that relates to the concepts they will be working with ? |
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Well, guess that they might be offended by the fact that you aren't just asking them that question. Is this supposed to be a puzzler or are you looking to "gotcha" some candidates? |
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It's a bit of a puzzler, all good interviews have some element of open ended stuff. Yes men have their place, but good programmers think on their feet. It really is no different from picking a project from their cv and asking some pointy, and some open ended questions. |
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OK, here's what I imagine my thought process would be as we go through the scenario you describe: |
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Everything is going fine, we're talking about software, yes I've worked in teams before, yes I can do x, y and z, and I've had 10 years experience in working in environments a, b and c - little joke, pretend authority, usual nonsense - then, out come the scissors...
Hmm, ok, what's this about? - First, what's with the "Don't run with scissors" thing? You just handed me some scissors with a note on them about not running, but that seems slightly out of context since (I imagine) we're both sitting down, having an interview, and not running around anywhere - nervous laughter at that point as if to say "Ha, yes, very droll" although really, I don't have a clue - just keep smiling. |
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Then there's this big piece of A3 with various labels on it - you want me to cut up the paper? Divide the "cake" up, into what? Who gets the different pieces? Is making a cut analogous to giving someone a job? Or doing a job? Where's the bit that says "Define Customer Requirements"? Is there another bit of paper hidden under the desk? And why is he countering all my questions with "Why"? It was all going so well, and now these left-handed scissors are giving me the shakes - Do it again? Erm, ok - is this the right department? Did I accidentally walk into "Shredding"? |
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Oh, ok - we've finished now - yes, here are your scissors - oh thanks, a piece of paper with the word "face recognition" written on it - is that a clue? Is he saying that he recognises my face? Or that he will when I get the job? Or that I'll see him, but not if he sees me coming first? |
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... Firm handshake, yes, thanks, very nice meeting you - bye now, yes - thanks bye!! |
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OK, so some of that was over-egged, but really - what is this supposed to tell us? Is cutting up the paper something to do with attacking a job from different angles? Or is it a project manager thing? Exactly who's in this team anyway, and how was I supposed to know how your department works? Sorry if that sounds like I'm down on the idea, but as presented, I really don't know what it's trying to tell me - and, as presented in an interview session, I'd be wondering the same. |
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And [zeno] - that is brilliant. |
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well... as long as I get to eat the cake, I suppose... |
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you are a gentleman and a scholar, Zen. |
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//Don't run with scissors// |
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This tip was customarily the first shown when programs offered a "tips at start" feature. |
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All told I'm sensing that most people think the actual cutting part is scissorist, and the idea would benefit from a traditional pen and paper type quiz of the form -
Q1: Please score these technologies and concepts from 1-10 as to how relevant they are to our company. You will be asked about your answers later. |
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Q2: Place the same technologies into 4 logical groups of related technologies. You will be asked about your answers later. |
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//Is cutting up the paper something to do with attacking a job from different angles?// |
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Kind of. Its more a way to lay bare the techie stuff going on in the company and seeing what a new programmer thinks of the mess/structure and how they relate to bits of it e.g. take an interest in something. |
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"Mr [zen_tom], here at Futile Monolithic Software, we like people who ask questions. We can see a future for you in the structured query department. Welcome aboard !" |
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//Futile Monolithic Software// I used to work for CorpoSham - "Where your needs are waved aside by an enthusiastic salesman." who's development arm consists of some very tired Welshmen, Bristolian graduates, frustrated hippies and borderline psychotics (Venn Diagram required there to fully explain the complete picture) Brought together to cringe beneath the ever-watching eye of a sadistic corporate overlord who's development strategy could be described as lurching violently towards anything that was currently "enbuzzant" (I understand they are currently heavily "cloud" oriented at the moment) whilst simultaneously steering away from doing anything that might be "helpful" to his corporate rivals. |
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Those lucky enough to escape blinking from the "Product Centre" are sent "on-site" to fill the perceptual gap between imaginative sales-promises and real-world practicalities - the process being known internally as "managing expectations" - an unrelenting schedule of travel and pressure usually means burn out after 4-5 years - either that, or the succumbing to a corrosive form of cynicism that eventually turns the escapee into a bitter husk incapable of maintaining interpersonal relationships or feeling a sensation known (apparently) as "joy".
Sign me up! |
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zen_tom did we use to work together? I was the brown, beige and green guy with the hump. |
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"Product Centre" a place were non-products are produced. |
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"Managing Expectations" the ability to CFD (Colour for Directors) your way out of a very deep hole based on the inverse work ethic (the more you put in, the less I get out). |
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Are CorpoSham now know as SAP? |
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//You hand them a pair of scissors //
"Ooh, thank you! I haven't been allowed scissors since the incident with the school rabbit."
//Are CorpoSham now know as SAP?//
<Bites tongue. Stays silent.> |
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//Are CorpoSham now known as SAP?// No, but they operate in a pretty similar field - and, from what I know about SAP (initially a small, agile* and friendly company who's early sense of challenge, camaraderie and attention to quality was blasted into non-existence by inflative success (a success which was probably based initially on the attention to quality, camaraderie etc) rapid corporatisation, and a shift of priorities from "doing the right thing", "quality of life" and "respect for your fellow human beings" to "sell as much bollocks as we can possibly get away-with to these suckers, and get the [fonz]† out pronto") probably has a similar history as well. |
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[89t] I don't think we did, but I'm the one who looks busy all day, but who occasionally laughs at what appears to be his own code - almost as though he wasn't actually working at all, but instead was engaged in some form of illicit internet communication...oh lookout, [bigsleep]'s coming - quick look busy!! |
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* here I use agile in the nimble, quick response sense, and not the corporate bollocks Management Paradigm one.
† Automated edit by Cryptoswear™, "Sweetening your prose, one [fonz] at a time" |
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Ok, well I hope you all enjoyed the interview. First, let me collect the scissors. Ok, 89t, some kind of origami flightless bird, very creative. WcW, hmm, you seem to have cut out two letters, an 'N' and an 'O'. Colorclocks, nasty paper cut, I'll get you some disinfectant and a plaster. zen_tom, nice dilbert flip book. |
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I'm thinking if we pool our collective will to live and programming talent, we could well survive a couple of years making our own money. |
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I have no programming talent (I blame Fortran 77), so I hope my will to live makes up for it. |
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89t, ah yes, one of the first objectively disorientating languages. Was that the one where you had to spell everying out in full, in german, or is that SAP ? |
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[still laughing at zen_tom's annos] |
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Maybe you should re-think the approach of the idea. First of all if there is no edible cake to be eaten, don't tease your applicants. Second of all programmers aren't applying to be middle managers. Org charts and business components are simply distractions from the task of producing a great product. A good programmer is a craftsman. Finally, unless you want someone to re-org your model don't invite them to do it, this can only lead to conflict. Instead be clear about the role you want them to take on. |
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Back to serious mode. //A good programmer is a craftsman// I still believe that too and desperately cling to that ideal after 20 years of disappointment. And despite what msoft wants people to believe, architecture is still a technical job. You have a point about inviting someone into an area with no possibilities, but interviews are often like that e.g. we have product x,y and z, this is what they do, but you'll be working on z. And I do remember many "one test fits all" interviews, one where the interviewer admittedly said "max score ever (his) - 50%". |
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(off at a tangent) - So Mr Cake what makes you believe you would like a job at CorpoSham? Hmm - so your tasty you say. Do you have any little buns? One fairy and a carrot cake, OK. What defines a good greaseproof paper in your opinion? |
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//A good programmer is a craftsman// I think that's important too - and (I think I've said this elsewhere too) a craftsman can be thought of as someone who creates their own tools. |
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e.g. A poor mechanic (sometimes referred to as 'blacksmiths' by my Dad) can put a lot of effort into undoing a tricky bolt, and might even strip it in the process - but a craftsman will spend some time thinking about the job in hand, realise the difficulty and create a tool that makes the job effortless (or at least reasonably effortless) |
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Regardless what anyone thinks, I'm going to ramify my cake and share it. And it does look prettier in little ramekins. |
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Boned, not because this is a bad idea (no idea has actually been communicated) but because I don't really see halfbakery as a list of interview questions. |
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Seriously, however, bigsleep has written this description and several replies but hasn't elucidated any meaning to the exercise of cutting the cake. |
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classic mid level management. |
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Sorry if this has already been pointed out, but there are entirely too many annotations for me to read them all (call me lazy): This is what resumes and reference-checks are for. If you call their previous employers, where they claim to have learned all this knowledge, and ask around you can get a pretty good grasp of their job qualification. There are also many employers who utilize computer-based and written tests for this purpose. [-] |
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And that video in the link... is absolutely priceless. |
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//and several replies but hasn't elucidated any meaning to the exercise of cutting the cake// |
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Admittedly this idea does require some acknowledgement of software development difficulties above a student's 100 line program. The biggest problem I encounter as a seasoned programmer is the gulf between off-the-shelf languages, tools and third-party software to what may be a huge project. This is exactly why large software projects have significant risk associated with them. |
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The basic idea of the cake is to show potential employees the vastness and complexity of not only the technological footprint, but the business domains employed by the company. This is done to see how they react to the 'wholeness'. I think this approach is entirely valid and the test could be administered using a scissorless paradigm possibly employing the articulation of a writing implement over an impressionable surface (middle management language used as a comedic device). |
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Even if an interviewee could see the relationship between two areas, that would be great for cutting down on red tape between teams. If they showed profound understanding of the whole, they instantly get promoted to CTO. That's the purpose of the test as one aspect of a rounded interview. |
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Going by [zen_tom]s annos, he fully understands this. There is a technical void in management that is filled with 'methodologies' rather than knowledge e.g. a team is desired to be enbuzzed and agile rather than competent. |
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For example, if 'scalabilty' was one of the concepts on the cake and the interviewee went straight for it asking "striped or enterprise ?" he would get hired. |
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So against what I said ealier to WcW, this test probably is trying to invite the technically talented into positions of greater responsibilty. IT is peculiar in that the demand for it has forced people who know nothing about it into management positions, and a whole market has sprung up to supply products to this tier of ignorance (SAP, enterprise tech, ...). |
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So the cake is there, scoff as much as you like, but retain an understanding of what the hell you're dealing with. |
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Who am I kidding ? The void will only be there as long as it takes for the glut of juniors to mature a bit. However, it did take me a while to see past the bullshit, and it really does take a huge amount of confidence to face down management and put your 10,000 lines of code against some (dodgy) enterprise tech. |
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