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Conspiracy Theory Acceptance Rating

Ranked by tinfoil hat thickness, from 1 to 5 layers.
  (+15, -1)(+15, -1)
(+15, -1)
  [vote for,
against]

If you believe in the Loch Ness monster, but that's about it, you get a "1 Layer Tinfoil Hat" ranking. After all, the thing looks kind of like a plesiosaur and they did think the coelacanth was extinct before they caught one alive.

Throw in the Area 51 stuff, you'd be a "2 Layer Tinfoil Hat" ranking. There might be aliens out there and the government does cover up stuff.

The highest (lowest) ranking would be the "5 Layer Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theorist" for those who have yet to hear a conspiracy theory they don't believe.

doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012

Alien Abduction Verification Bureau Alien_20Abduction_20Verification_20Bureau
Shameless elf-publicity [8th of 7, Oct 11 2012]

I'll just leave this here. http://the2012scena...o-disclosure-plans/
"UFO disclosure plans." Apparently Obama intends to inform us that we are not alone November 27th of this year. [Voice, Oct 15 2012]

For [2fries shy] https://www.igame.com/eye-test/
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 14 2017]

For [Max]. A proper hue test. http://www.colormun.../game/huetest_kiosk
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jun 14 2017]

Multi Photon Infra Red Vision http://www.pnas.org...t/111/50/E5445.full
[bs0u0155, Jun 16 2017]

A slightly harder hue test https://mitxela.com...r/hb/colourtest.htm
[mitxela, Jun 17 2017]

Online questionnaire for [2fries] http://www.mufon.co...-questionnaire.html
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 20 2017]

The Drake Equation https://en.wikipedi...wiki/Drake_equation
Just a wild guess, really ... [8th of 7, Jun 24 2017]

https://xkcd.com/1235/ [hippo, Jun 25 2017]

The EM Drive https://www.science...ally-been-published
Curious... [RayfordSteele, Jun 28 2017]

NASA child slave labor camp on Mars http://www.thedaily...lave-colony-on-mars
[theircompetitor, Jul 01 2017]

Hawking on Climate Change http://www.npr.org/...mate-over-the-brink
If Climate Change is a religion, then Dr. Hawking seems to be one of its priests. [RayfordSteele, Jul 11 2017]

Some of the "suppressed" publications on melatonin https://www.ncbi.nl...med/?term=Reiter+RJ
1277 publications by one author, including on elevated melatonin. [MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017]

Another 22,483 publications on melatonin - normal, elevated and reduced. https://www.ncbi.nl...med/?term=melatonin
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017]

NASA's Climate Change Evidence Site https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Let the evidence speak. [RayfordSteele, Jul 18 2017]

On why the gold standard is a bad idea. http://www.moneyand...-is-a-very-bad-idea
Less stability, for starters. [RayfordSteele, Jul 19 2017]

Deaths due to coal mining in the Unites States alone. https://arlweb.msha...stats/coalstats.asp
[doctorremulac3, Jul 19 2017]

Deaths worldwide from nuclear accidents. https://en.wikipedi...dents_by_death_toll
Including nuclear power plants, radiotherapy incidents and nuclear submarine disasters. [doctorremulac3, Jul 19 2017]

[link]






       A solid 5, especially when they claim to know for a fact that steel has to melt into liquid before it can bend.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       We have to define what a conspiracy theory is first of all. The Lock Ness monster is a legend, not a conspiracy theory like chemtrails. Secondly is this "acceptance rating" about how many people accept the theory as reality, or how acceptable it is from a scientific and plausibility standpoint? For instance, Area 51 might not be accepted by many people earning it a high tin-foil hat rating. At the same time, there is quite a high probability that weird things have happened there so does that reduce the number of hats?   

       -if Bush wanted to perpetrate 9/11 as an excuse to invade iRaq, wouldn't he have said that it was iRaq that attacked us to make it more justified?
DIYMatt, Oct 10 2012
  

       //-if Bush wanted to perpetrate 9/11 as an excuse to invade iRaq, wouldn't he have said that it was iRaq that attacked us to make it more justified?//   

       One of the finest rebuttles to that conspiracy I've ever heard.   

       Mine was why not just say the terrorists planted the explosives in the WTC? Why go through all the trouble of flying empty planes, kidnapping and vanishing hundreds of airline passengers etc? This was in fact what they did the first time they tried to blow up the world trade center with the van full of explosives. Why not just say they got it right this time?   

       Good point about legend vs conspiracy. I could say it's a conspiracy to keep the Lockness Monster covered up but I'm un-aware of any such thing so I should probably find another example.   

       Hmm. What's a light harmless conspiracy that would only warrant a 1 layer? hat ranking?   

       Ok, the hundred mile per gallon carburator. I'll change it. Actually, then your anno won't make sense so I'll leave it.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       Where does homeopathic medicine fall?
RayfordSteele, Oct 10 2012
  

       That one creeps me out because it's so popular. I don't know, do the people get a pass because they just hear a scientific sounding word and turn their brain off? This opposed to somebody who buys all the books and videos and won't shut up about it at the water cooler? Ehh, 1 layer.   

       Maybe we need a huge expensive government bureaucracy to figure these things out.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       //Where does homeopathic medicine fall?// 0.000,000,001 tinfoil hats.
pocmloc, Oct 10 2012
  

       How did I miss that one?
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       //That one creeps me out because it's so popular.//   

       Guys, guys, guys. Every time you hear of someone who believes in astrology, homeopathy, lay lines, gods or reiki, your heart should leap with joy.   

       It means there is one more person on Earth than whom you are smarter, and who can be gulled out of large sums of money with relative ease. These people can be harvested to support the rest of us.
MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 10 2012
  

       Do you believe in Tin Foil Hats?
xandram, Oct 10 2012
  

       The true conspiracy behind the Lock Ness Monster is that The Discovery Channel created the legend in the 1990s so that they could have endless series and specials based on it.
DIYMatt, Oct 10 2012
  

       When I get to the end of my rope with 9-11 Truthers or whatever, my generic response to the completely un-swayable conspiracy nut is to just say "You give people waaaay to much credit for being amazingly competent."   

       My favorite is the Moon landing "hoax". They don't deny that a rocket the size of a skyscraper was shot into the sky, they just don't believe that after that we gave the tiny space capsule at the top a little nudge to the right so that it could go the rest of the way to the Moon. I explain to them that the supersonic flying skyscraper was the hard part.   

       I think being stupid releases endorphins or something hence it's great popularity as a pastime.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       It's a funny idea for a rating system but not really a very good visual rating system as a one layer foil hat and a five layer foil hat are not appreciably different.
rcarty, Oct 10 2012
  

       Tinfoil hats will be in fashion soon.   

       I shouldn't even chime in on this one... yeahright.   

       ~I believe there are aliens, and figure we're a probably pretty interesting science experiment.
~I think that 'some' corporations are becoming as powerful as countries and have no ethic.
~I think that there are groups of people who would just as soon have a vast majority of the population eliminated or subservient.
~...and I've had a sasquatch encounter.
  

       <does best Shrek>
"I need more layers Donkey!"
  

       //~I believe there are aliens,// yes.   

       // and figure we're a probably pretty interesting science experiment// unlikely.   

       //~I think that 'some' corporations are becoming as powerful as countries and have no ethic.// yes.   

       //~I think that there are groups of people who would just as soon have a vast majority of the population eliminated or subservient.// obviously.   

       //~...and I've had a sasquatch encounter.// no.
MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 10 2012
  

       You had me up till Sasquatch.   

       Unless you're making a ribald joke about having dated a hairy girl in college.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       I was just talking to someone who sounded as though they had at least the 5-layer thickness. "Do you believe in freemasons?" he asked. After a great deal of laughter, I told him that I knew a couple and they are a lovely dinner club. Apparently they control *everything* that goes on in the world. "There's about 6 billion of them worldwide." Yeah...
TomP, Oct 10 2012
  

       I think it's somehow comforting to believe that someplace there's a group of people who know everything.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2012
  

       Funny part is that the Sasquatch bit is the only one of those beliefs that I'm completely sure of.   

       Ain't life grand?   

       // 'some' corporations are becoming as powerful as countries and have no ethic.//   

       so, is that like Apple versus Luxembourg, or Facebook & Twitter versus Mubarak? Banks versus sovereigns that take their money and run? Big Oil versus Venezuela?
theircompetitor, Oct 11 2012
  

       Might I suggest that the scale goes something like this   

       1. I seriously doubt that the tin hat rating is serious   

       2. The tin hat rating is a valuable tool   

       3. I suspect the Tin hat rating was devised by the Government to control us.   

       4. The Tin hat rating is the work of the 6ft lizards.   

       5. The tin hat rating is a front for Halfbakery world domination.
PainOCommonSense, Oct 11 2012
  

       <reads idea>   

       <removes hat, peers inside>   

       <counts 6 layers>   

       <replaces hat>   

       <creeps away>   

       // ~I believe there are aliens, //   

       Correctly.   

       // and figure we're a probably pretty interesting science experiment //   

       No, you're a cheap reality TV show- comedy/ light entertainment. You get great ratings, but for all the wrong reasons.   

       // ~I think that 'some' corporations are becoming as powerful as countries and have no ethic //   

       Clearly you are unaware of the VOC and the Honourable East India Company …   

       // ~I think that there are groups of people who would just as soon have a vast majority of the population eliminated or subservient //   

       … specialised subject, "The Bleedin' Obvious"…   

       // ~...and I've had a sasquatch encounter //   

       Are you sure it wasn't just a regular Canadian? Tall, hairy, huge feet, communicates in grunts? Hard to tell apart …
8th of 7, Oct 11 2012
  

       And we can stop the voting, we have a winner.   

       In the category: "Single Greatest Link Ever Posted On The Halfbakery Of All Time"... envelope please...   

       ...Simpleton's "Tin Foil Hats Actually Make it Easier for the Government to Track Your Thoughts". (smattering of applause from the two old ladies in the audience who took a wrong turn on their way to the Sunday buffet)   

       This truly is my all time favorite story and it gives me my new standard zinger for non-stoppable conspiracy nuts.   

       "You know, tinfoil hats actually HELP the government track your thoughts. Just sayin'."
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2012
  

       Lockness? No true Scotsman is unable to aspirate a c.
calum, Oct 11 2012
  

       All these extreme incidents in US history, IMO, deflect attention from other things. That's what's troubling... wondering what it is we're not seeing because we have something else put before us.
Phrontistery, Oct 11 2012
  

       Yea, you gotta wonder. If you're spending all your time worrying about Freemasons and chemtrails doesn't that take away from your ability to take care of the very real business of dealing with actual problems that come with running a society?   

       Then there's the troubling idea that people who've been abducted by aliens get exactly the same number of votes that I do.
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2012
  

       If believing an untrue conspiracy makes someone crazy, then what does disbelieving a true conspiracy make someone?
rcarty, Oct 11 2012
  

       // what does disbelieving a true conspiracy make someone? //   

       A Roman Catholic …   

       Gratuitous <link>
8th of 7, Oct 11 2012
  

       No true Roman Catholic would disbelieve a true conspiracy.
rcarty, Oct 11 2012
  

       "True Conspiracy"   

       Great title for a novel.
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2012
  

       It should be about these masters of industry who have a plan to reduce everyone to the level of commodity but need to have everyone adopt a certain rational system of thinking, so as the plan begins to unfold a bunch of random people go crazy but being crazy they don't know exactly what is going on and only appear extremely irrational to others. The masters realize these crazies, that at first were a burden to them, could be of some use when they realize the others define their rationality in relation to them. This leads to the ultimate conspiracy being constructed whereby all means are used to popularize conspiracy theories but only for the most irrational people to accept them, for only they would choose possible delusion over social inclusion. This creates a shroud for the original conspiracy, trapping the minds of those who wish to remain sane as rational commodities.
rcarty, Oct 11 2012
  

       Hey, it practically writes itself.
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2012
  

       What can I say functional shit reproduces itself.
rcarty, Oct 11 2012
  

       That reads suspiciously like the Republican platform document.   

       //It means there is one more person on Earth than whom you are smarter, and who can be gulled out of large sums of money with relative ease. These people can be harvested to support the rest of us.//   

       But Max, these people also get to vote.
RayfordSteele, Oct 11 2012
  

       //these people also get to vote.//   

       When did THAT start??
MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 11 2012
  

       Be not afeared, M'Lud. These aren't real votes, and they don't change anything. If religion is the opium of the masses, voting is the soluble aspirin.   

       Everything will continue to be run by small groups of soberly-dressed men in expensively furnished back rooms, just like they have always been.
8th of 7, Oct 11 2012
  

       I guess you could say voting is the homeopathic medicine we use against tyranny.
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2012
  

       I don't think people who worry about freemasons and chemtrails are qualified to worry about society's problems.   

       I think the rating should partially be a function of how many times a claim has been made and disproved.
Voice, Oct 15 2012
  

       Here's a good way to determine how many layers are needed.   

       Which of these end-of-the-world events did you or do you believe in? (assign 1 layer for each)   

       1982 March 10th - The Jupiter Effect (combined gravitational forces of lined up planets were supposed to bring the end of the world on this day.)   

       1982 - Pat Robertson, predicted this end date in 1976.   

       1999 - Nastrodamus prediction of the "King of Terror" starting the final war.   

       2007, April 29th - Pat Robertson (again) suggested this is the day of the Earth's destruction, but for real this time.   

       2012, December - Mesoamerican calander ends, the world follows.   

       5 billion AD - The sun swells into a red giant and burns the earth to a crisp.   

       (I happen to believe in the last one myself)
doctorremulac3, Oct 15 2012
  

       03:14:07 UTC on Tuesday[ 2] 19 January 2038: the time_t long interger count rolls over.   

       But your species doesn't need to worry; you're not going to last that long.
8th of 7, Oct 15 2012
  

       In 5 billion AD we will just teleport the earth to another star. You left out the ultimate tin foil hat championship conspiracy: that the super secret planet Nibiru will swing by and kill us all in 2003, 2012, or 2900 depending on who you ask.
DIYMatt, Oct 15 2012
  

       Is that the planet that we never see because it's always on the far side of the Sun, or the planet in Zeta Reticuli 2 that's inhabited by evil grey lizards that have successfully mastered FTL travel and yet are repeatedly thwarted in their attempts to conquer Earth?
Alterother, Oct 15 2012
  

       Yeah, that's the grey lizards for you … fashion victims.
8th of 7, Oct 16 2012
  

       Wonder what would happen to the economy if we outlawed all products that were based on b.s. and lies.   

       I think selling something like homeopathic "medicine" or psychic advice is immoral myself, but I know plenty of folks who think taking money from ignorant people is perfectly acceptable as kind of a de facto "stupidity tax".   

       Although I don't support that view I can see where they're coming from.
doctorremulac3, Oct 17 2012
  

       //Guys, guys, guys. Every time you hear of someone who believes in astrology, homeopathy, lay lines, gods or reiki, your heart should leap with joy.//   

       Magnetic bracelets have a unique role in this, you can work out that you're smarter than someone REMOTELY... from like 10's of metres away. You don't have to interact with them to work out how persistently-baffled they are. This is amazing.... like humanity learning to kill dangerous things with chuck-able spears.... all the benefits at greatly reduced risks...
bs0u0155, Oct 17 2012
  

       Yahbut... stuff like "vaccination" and "causing an inflammation artificially to get antibodies to attack an infection that's flying under the radar" which may have a smaller nomenclative [edit: immunosomething], seem to be rooted in the concept of homeopathy.
FlyingToaster, Oct 17 2012
  

       Well, true, but you could say astrology is rooted in astronomy and alchemy is rooted in chemistry, but it's still wrong.
doctorremulac3, Oct 17 2012
  

       //Yahbut... stuff like "vaccination" and "causing an inflammation artificially to get antibodies to attack an infection that's flying under the radar" which may have a smaller nomenclative, seem to be rooted in the concept of homeopathy//   

       yeah... what is all this 'memory of cells' malarkey? Sounds deeply suspicious to me....
bs0u0155, Oct 18 2012
  

       There should be a formal SI unit of gullibility … maybe it could be called the "JFK" or the "WTC" or maybe even the "Elvis" …   

       Maybe the National Enquirer could run a competition? Then again, it would probably be fixed behind the scenes by the Masons or the Knights Templar or Coca-Cola …
8th of 7, Oct 18 2012
  

       " yeah... what is all this 'memory of cells' malarkey? Sounds deeply suspicious to me.... — bs0u0155, Oct 18 2012 "   

       Clearly it's rooted in revolutionary tactics, using small, semi-autonomous cells guided by a central leadership.
normzone, Oct 18 2012
  

       LOL. Simpleton's link: "Jesuit Bukakki Bomb". (proud to say I'm not sure of the spelling and will not look it up thank you)   

       If it was back in the early 80s and I was starting a punk band, that's what I would have named it.
doctorremulac3, Oct 22 2012
  

       Sp: Bukkake
Alterother, Oct 22 2012
  

       Thank you. I don't remember this word coming up at any spelling bees I competed in in my youth.
doctorremulac3, Oct 22 2012
  

       'Bukkake' is something disgusting from Japan, right ? We refuse to Google it until we are reassured.
8th of 7, Oct 22 2012
  

       It is indeed a practice that originated in Japan which I personally find repulsive, though apparently there are enough people interested in it to feed a thriving niche market in the porn industry. Shall I provide a link?
Alterother, Oct 22 2012
  

       ^^rest assured it is indeed something disgusting from Japan.
FlyingToaster, Oct 22 2012
  

       No link necessary AT.   

       8, you can Google it if you want to see it as long as you remember you won't be able to un-see it.   

       You've been warned.   

       Let's put it this way, I can see why this poor woman has nightmares about it. Not that it's anything she needs to worry about.
doctorremulac3, Oct 22 2012
  

       // you won't be able to un-see it //   

       Thankyou; we will not be deploying any search engines with that particularly textual argument. We have no requirement to be further informed of the bizarre behaviour of the inhabitants of the landmass referred to by your species as "Japan".
8th of 7, Oct 22 2012
  

       When you're Jewish you have to live with a few extra ones that are usually quite dangerous if you wear a yarmulka in some places...   

       Jews aren't Jews but actually Khazars, Zionism is racism, Israelis are the new Nazis in their terrorist apartheid state, the Jews initiated both world wars, caused the Holocaust which never was, but should have been, downed the twin towers and own the pharma industry which deliberately spreads cancer and prevents its cure.
pashute, Jun 10 2017
  

       Thanks, [pash] , that's great, cleared up a lot of stuff that folk worry about. Presumably they do chemtrails and all the fake news too ?   

       Presumably they're in league with the Knights Templar is some bizarre way, too - it would explain a lot.   

       Nice job with brainwashing all those alleged Nazi death camp survivors. The newsreel footage of all those British and American troops and senior officers alongside piles of emaciated corpses and skeletal survivors looks very convincing, almost real. Presumably you had some dirt on Joe Stalin to blackmail the Soviets into playing along ... or maybe Stalin was in on it all from the start ?
8th of 7, Jun 10 2017
  

       //When you're Jewish you have to live with a few extra ones // Yeah, but you do get to tell some great jokes.   

       I think the tinfoil rating has to be moderated according to your level of education, and possibly level of intelligence. If you're uneducated and/or not particularly intelligent, lots of things can seem perfectly reasonable that other people can immediately dismiss by the application of knowledge and/or reason.   

       For instance, homeopathy sounds quite reasonable unless you understand at least a little about molecules and atoms.   

       Oh, and it's Loch Ness. A monster that lived in a lock would be fairly easy to find.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 10 2017
  

       Nessiteras rhombopteryx?
Ian Tindale, Jun 10 2017
  

       Gesundheit.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 10 2017
  

       //Loch Ness//   

       Fixed.
doctorremulac3, Jun 10 2017
  

       //Nessiteras rhombopteryx//   

       Ah. I remember that one. It's an anagram of of "monster hoax by [someone]". I'm not sure whether a joke counts as a conspiracy.   

       It's a very clever joke except that, if you were making a bona fide attempt to render "Ness Monster" into Greek, it would probably come out as "Nessoteras". However, it's not unusual for people adding names to the Linnaean taxonomy to jumble Latin and Greek elements, and "i" is more common as a linking element in Latin - so its only a small stretch - especially by conspiracy theory standards.
pertinax, Jun 10 2017
  

       Oh, and [8th], I don't think the "O" of "VOC" is lower-case; it doesn't stand for "of", you know.
pertinax, Jun 10 2017
  

       We knew that. Fixed...   

       Something to do with the autocomplete algorithm... or maybe it's a conspiracy...
8th of 7, Jun 10 2017
  

       // It's an anagram of of "monster hoax by [someone]"//   

       "Monster hoax by Sir Peter S.", the "S" being "Scott".
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 11 2017
  

       What if you believe in a sort of meta-conspiracy theory? - e.g. you believe that all conspiracy theories (Loch Ness, Area 51, chemtrails, etc.) are false and are invented by the government to distract the population from what's *really* going on.
hippo, Jun 12 2017
  

       Great minds work alike. I was thinking the same thing. Conspiracy theorists are _so_ unshakeable, _so_ irrational and are willing to believe _so_ many different whacko things that perhaps they are just government agents placed to distract us all.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 12 2017
  

       Or maybe it's a double-bluff? The government would like you to believe that the Area 51 conspiracy is just a fabrication invented by them to distract you, as this lulls you into thinking that the Area 51 conspiracy is false.
hippo, Jun 12 2017
  

       Meanwhile, in Area 52 ...   

       The main thing that militates against most conspiracy theories is that governments are, by and large, utterly incompetent.   

       Military forces keep secrets by means of firm discipline, loyalty to the unit, and the sanctions available (including summary execution in time of war).   

       Religious organizations rely on faith and the fear of post-death retribution.   

       But governments are mostly composed of heterogeneous individuals with no great buy-in to the "cause", other than that week's paycheck. Not surprisingly, they bungle things, leak information like sieves, and react like lightly-chilled treacle.   

       Of course, they're always keen to hide their cockups, but that's a different thing. Cover-ups are standard procedure. But the sort of highly motivated and disciplined people you need to run a decent conspiracy are generally too busy making money in private enterprise to bother with bureaucracy. Besides, in a bureaucracy, these people are usually seen as "difficult", "disruptive", and worst of all "not team players". And they love paperwork, whereas the secret of a good conspiracy is to write down as little as possible.   

       It might actually be reassuring if the government was competent enough to run a conspiracy... sadly, they aren't.
8th of 7, Jun 12 2017
  

       This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Russian in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Regarding those large areas of the country which had been off-limits to foreign visitors, he confided "The secret is, there is no secret."
pertinax, Jun 12 2017
  

       // It might actually be reassuring if the government was competent enough to run a conspiracy... sadly, they aren't. //   

       Yes, two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead.
So... I guess it's come full circle to aliens running the show then?
  

       The latest joyous development is the resurgence of "Flat Earthers". I've said it before:   

       Unfortunately, stupidity can be cultivated and harvested as a profitable commodity.   

       And stupid people's votes are worth just as much as mine. If these people are dumb enough to believe that the Earth is flat, it would be fairly easy to sell them on some political party's plan to put a rainbow in every yard and a unicorn in every garage. As long as they're willing to give up all their money and civil rights, or much more likely, all MY money and MY civil rights.
doctorremulac3, Jun 12 2017
  

       // aliens running the show then? //   

       You wish. Why do you think things are in such a mess ?   

       You'd be better off with aliens running your planet, or better still synthetic intelligence.
8th of 7, Jun 12 2017
  

       //When you're Jewish you have to live with a few extra ones that are usually quite dangerous if you wear a yarmulka in some places..//   

       Oddly, the same sort of thing happens to Muslims living here.
RayfordSteele, Jun 12 2017
  

       If everyone would just go around naked, we'd soon forget who was Jewish and who wasn't.   

       No, wait a moment...
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 12 2017
  

       //And stupid people's votes are worth just as much as mine.//   

       If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it right? It's a con. It's like friggin American Idol on acid.   

       //You'd be better off with aliens running your planet, or better still synthetic intelligence//   

       Nope.   

       <reviews current crop of national leaders>   

       <notes that many were allegedly chosen by national populations>   

       <decides that humans deserve everything they get>
8th of 7, Jun 12 2017
  

       //If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it//   

       If that's the case, then why did "they" try so hard to prevent voting from being introduced?   

       Also, the fact that "they" spend so much money to buy elections (at least in the U.S, where there aren't laws against this) indicates that elections are valuable.   

       Also again, by most definitions of "they", "they" didn't want either Brexit or Trump. So, there were two votes that made a difference. Not a good difference necessarily, but a difference.   

       Come on, [2 fries], you can do better than this elderly canard.
pertinax, Jun 13 2017
  

       //"they" didn't want either Brexit or Trump// And "they" didn't want May to lose her majority. The last few elections and referenda in both the US and the UK have all involved the people sticking two (or one in the US) finger(s) up at "them" and giving "them" a result which "they" didn't like.   

       [2fries], can I suggest some orange and ginger sauce to go with your canard? It comes in a tinfoil container that you could wash and use afterwards.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 13 2017
  

       Yes, very nice ... do you have any of that lovely vintage Premier Cru Beaune you served at the Walpurgisnacht banquet ? That went very well with the roast Stork, and what whas the other thing ? Long Pig, was it ? Very nice, that was. Very tasty, very sweet.   

       Get yourself a few cases of Beaune, [2fries]. Even if you don't really enjoy the duck, you won't really care. And ask [MB] to get the Long Pig in lemon and five-spice sauce off Sturton for you.   

       And those tinfoil containers are a much thicker grade of metal than regular domestic-grade cooking foil, well worth the investment.
8th of 7, Jun 13 2017
  

       I guess what I mean is, if you don't get to double check and make sure that your vote went where you put it... then how do you know for sure that your vote counted?   

       When I see things like Brexit and The Donald winning out, it makes me wonder just how much the game is rigged.   

       //five-spice sauce off Sturton// Was it put on him? Or does it just grow?
pocmloc, Jun 13 2017
  

       // it makes me wonder just how much the game is rigged.//   

       [2fries], there comes a point in life when it becomes easier to just understand the world as it is, rather than frittering yourself away on endless conspiracy theories. Governments are generally inept; voters are generally inept; shit happens; conspiracies invariably fail. Cope.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 13 2017
  

       //understand the world as it is, rather than frittering yourself away on endless conspiracy theories//   

       Wow you really don't know me at all.
Who's got time for frittering?
  

       Understanding the world as it is from a completely unbiased point of view is what has me convinced that we are governed by a bunch of self serving sociopaths playing the "Let's give ourselves raises and quintuple up on pensions while throwing tax-payer rights in the toilet" game.   

       That's not what I pay my servants for.   

       Had any luck finding a single thing I've lied to you about yet?
Let me give you a re-cap of some of the actual medical mystery lies I've supposedly told which should, in my opinion, fascinate any molecular biologist and be either simply disproven or worthy of a paper or two;
  

       -Hypermelatoninism, (puberty just before twenty)
-Male tetrachromat, (perfect hue recognition) without Klinefelters syndrome.
-Visual snow since birth, I see like I'm on acid 24/7... and I rock it.
-Full control of eustachian tubes allowing equalization of inner ear pressure at will.
-Duputren's contracture in both hands bypassing index fingers and affecting thumbs, (not possible, no prior cases), and being reabsorbed by my body, (also not possible, no prior cases).
  

       I'm sure that there are more alleged lies that I've told but those should certainly be enough to allow you to pick a few and get started proving your claims about me.   

       Let me know when you are ready to put my lies to the test.
Until then stop flinging labels at me.
  

       I don't think you're a liar, [2 fries]. And I hope you won't think I'm a liar when I tell you I've been once or twice in the room where ballot boxes were being opened, votes counted and results announced, and there wasn't any cheating - plenty of vanity, folly and general Comédie humaine, but no actual cheating.
pertinax, Jun 14 2017
  

       //has me convinced that we are governed by a bunch of self serving sociopaths// Well, you're right about that. The problem is that they were all elected, or appointed by the people you elected.   

       //Had any luck finding a single thing I've lied to you about yet?// In that annotation, this page, or more generally?   

       // -Hypermelatoninism, (puberty just before twenty) -Male tetrachromat, ... -Visual snow ... -Full control of eustachian tubes ... -Duputren's contracture ...//   

       No problem with your having a range of interesting conditions. The tetrachromacy is false and untested, but the others could perfectly well be true. We can go round the loop a few more times for old times' sake, but probably not here on [doc]'s page.   

       //stop flinging labels// nah, I enjoy it. So do you, go on, admit it.   

       Incidentally, you do know that (a) "perfect hue recognition" is meaningless (651nm from 650.999998nm, maybe?) - perhaps you mean "very good" or "better than average"? and (b) tetrachromats don't have "perfect" hue recognition - they just have a wider gamut than trichromats and (c) there are about three or four factors at least, that can cause "very good" or "better than average" hue discrimination, apart from tetrachromacy. Most of them are fairly common, at least compared to tetrachromacy, and can occur in males as well as females. So remind me why you chose tetrachromacy, of all the available options? Is it that (i) you'd heard of it and it was rare and (ii) at the time, you didn't know it was only really an option in women?   

       I know a guy who is a professional wine taster, and has a sense of smell way, way better than anyone else I know. As far as I'm aware, he's never claimed to have an extra nose, but I'll ask him.   

       <edit> I just did a colour discrimination test online and came out at the top of the scale. The test is easy <link>, and I suspect it's a scam.<\edit>
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 14 2017
  

       <unpeels sticky label from backing paper>   

       <flings label>   

       . . .   

       <starts trying to scrape sticky label off leg>   

       Explain again how you fling labels, please. The stiff card type can be thrown like a playing card, but bounce off. The sticky sort either flutter to the ground or stick to the thrower. Experiments with stiff card labels and glue have been ... unrewarding.   

       Is there some secret to this ?   

       <wanders off, flapping arm attempting to detach sticky card label from hand>
8th of 7, Jun 14 2017
  

       Is it true that the sticky labels on apples are edible?
Ian Tindale, Jun 14 2017
  

       If it's a french golden malicious, it's probably a lot more edible than the apple ...
8th of 7, Jun 14 2017
  

       According to the Online, they are edible. The stickers, that is; there is no word on french apples.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 14 2017
  

       (of course, the ricin-based glue can be problematic)
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 14 2017
  

       I heard you can make chips out of French apples, so that's a bonus.
bs0u0155, Jun 14 2017
  

       No no - if you try, you'll find them very off-putting. That's why they're called "pommes deterre" in french.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 14 2017
  

       Well I'm going on rumours, obviously, but a deep fried Cox's Orange Pippin did not go well with gravy. Maybe the French get theirs from a different sauce.
bs0u0155, Jun 14 2017
  

       I don't think you're a liar [pertinax]. Good to know. Still... Trump getting in has to make you wonder.   

       //Had any luck finding a single thing I've lied to you about yet?//
// In that annotation, this page, or more generally?//
  

       Period.   

       //So remind me why you chose tetrachromacy, of all the available options?//   

       There are options?
That hue test you picked is shite. Try this one. [link] See if you can score zero within a few seconds.
  

       //stop flinging labels//
//nah, I enjoy it. So do you, go on, admit it.//
  

       No, I really really... like really don't. I've told you before, your attitude is what I've been up against my entire life, that instant prejudiced surety that I am lying.
Instead of helping me get to the bottom of these multiple unbelievable anomalies you can't take your fingers out of your ears and stop name-calling long enough to back your slander with facts.
  

       Just like every doctor, teacher, and authority figure I had growing up.
It makes me sick.
In case you hadn't noticed that string of letters behind your name and that lab coat tend to make people believe the words you say even when you talk out of your ass.
  

       My words don't do much to affect the lives of educated people.
The words of overly certain yet completely wrong educated people on the other hand have fucked up my life quite a bit. It's not easy being a freak of nature.
  

       You should be helping me instead of chasing me around the playground and poking me with a stick.
It's only fun for you.
  

       //Explain again how you fling labels, please.//   

       The hard part is getting them off the beer.   

       // Period. // Ah, OK. Well, we'll come back to this point when it's over.   

       //multiple unbelievable anomalies// Yep. One anomaly is interesting, two is surprising. Half a dozen plus Bigfoot is, as you pointed out, unbelievable. There is a single unified explanation that covers most of them, but you won't like it...   

       //Try this one. [link] // Well, I scored 2 (best possible score 0; worst 99), which just means I have "good" colour discrimination, and/or that my monitor is OK. A score of zero is listed as being "within range" for males of my age range.   

       My point, [2fries], is that even if you have better-than-average hue discrimination, you're not a tetrachromat, and you picked that option because it was weird and exotic, before I told you that it's only possible with two X-chromosomes.   

       As far as I can recall, there is not a single anomaly, strange experience, or weirdness that you *don't* claim to have or to have had - tetrachromacy, dowsing, meeting Bigfoot...perhaps you can remind me of the others. Your Halfbakery persona, at least, is heavily based on being both strangely gifted and strangely disadvantaged (both by your own anomalies and by the hostility of the world in general) at the same time. If it works for you (yes yes, tell me it doesn't) then fine, but I'm old enough not to have to be polite enough to nod along.   

       Did I ever mention that my house is out in the middle of nowhere? As a result, we're not on mains drainage. Instead, there's a 10ft diameter brick-lined, concrete-roofed chamber buried under the woods next to the house. We normally have it emptied every year or so, but it's now about 2 months overdue. Yet, surprisingly, it's still not as full of it as you are.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 15 2017
  

       See?   

       You get to be overly certain without proof.
I get to bang my head against your brick shit-house. Welcome to my life.
  

       I don't have a 'halfbakery persona' Paul. I'm just me in real life and on-line, but strangely gifted and strangely disadvantaged is a very good way to put it.
Every gift can be a curse and vice versa.
  

       I didn't 'pick' the word tetrachromia. I don't know another word for perfect hue recognition.   

       //One anomaly is interesting, two is surprising. Half a dozen plus Bigfoot is, as you pointed out, unbelievable. There is a single unified explanation that covers most of them, but you won't like it...//   

       Yeah I'm well aware of that label. It won't stick any more than the others have but you just go ahead and fling it without proof if that's what you feel you need to do.   

       Until then, what exactly would it take to convince you that my little stories aren't lies?
Hypnosis? Sodium Pentathol? Torture?
What?
Because I'm getting the vibe that, not only are you starting to question the surety of my falseness... you're absolutely terrified that my words might be proven to be true... and I already know that they are, so that just leaves me wondering what the words of little-old-uneducated me could possible do to cause such fear and irrational response from such a rational fellow.
  

       You sure that brick shit-house of yours is strong enough?   

       Yes thanks. Been OK since 1820. Anyway, thanks for reminding me to get the shit pumped out of it.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 15 2017
  

       mm hmm   

       //not only are you starting to question the surety of my falseness// You may have mis-read me. I'd wager every penny I have on your falseness.   

       //absolutely terrified that my words might be proven to be true// Oh puh-lease. I'm more worried that you'll give up this game and deprive me of my fun.   

       If you'd rather take this up by email, my address is, I believe, known to you.   

       //I don't know another word for perfect hue recognition. // Well, don't use words you don't understand, then.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 15 2017
  

       I'll tell you what, [2fries]. You keep saying I should be helping you. So I will. Here's how:   

       (1) Put 1-2 drops of blood onto a clean (NEW, preferably from the middle of the pack) piece of paper. White blotting paper would be better, as would a coffee filter, but ordinary paper will be OK. Let it dry completely.   

       (2) Mail it in an envelope to: Dr. P H Dear, Mote Research Limited, Babraham Research Campus, Cambridge CB22 3AT, UK. Airmail would be great, but it'll be OK by regular mail.   

       (3) I will personally extract DNA and run the PCRs and send the amplicons for sequencing if needs be, to determine whether you are a tetrachromat. As a freebie, I'll test you for a Y-chromosome.   

       (4) I will let you know the result. If I know the sample's on its way, it'll take maybe 3-5 days from when I get it.   

       Now, would that be considered helpful? I dare you. In fact, I //double dog dare you//.   

       Or will this be the second occasion on which you're not actually willing to have your bluff called?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 15 2017
  

         

       Really? Thank you.   

       What's another word for perfect hue recognition in a male?...y'know since I already know I don't have Klinefelters.   

       Done.
I'll mail it in the morning.
Middle sheet from a new unopened pack of coffee filters and sandwich bagged within seconds of smearing.
  

       On a side note, is it normal to have a newly opened wound to clot before you can press it to the paper? Because I had to stick myself with a fileting knife three times to get enough. (I hope it's enough) I cut myself a lot at work and I stop bleeding within seconds.
I've always kind of prided myself on it... but is that a symptom of something bad?
  

       Seriously. I've accidentally sliced myself to the bone several times in the past and watched the blood stop welling while I'm walking to the truck for some napkins. That, and the fact that I can grout for about a week straight without gloves and not spring a leak, when every apprentice I've ever had can't last an afternoon grouting without gloves and not have their skin being eaten away has me wondering.   

       No bluff.   

       Personally, I find it rather pointless trying to have a rational discussion with two types of people:   

       1. Those that smugly insist on believing things (such as some particular conspiracy) in the absence of supporting evidence or even in the face of contradictory evidence, and   

       2. Those that smugly dismiss people as "conspiracy theorists" and reject what they say without doing the hard work of carefully investigating and weighing the evidence (if any) for themselves.   

       Anyway, I'd rate myself at about 1 layer. I have problems believing *any* supposedly official story, but I don't usually claim to know what actually happened. My only remaining concern is, shiny side in or out?
spidermother, Jun 15 2017
  

       I'd guess a 1.5, but I'll sign up as 2 so I can get foil thick enough the grounding strap doesn't tear it.
FlyingToaster, Jun 15 2017
  

       Everything you know wasn't true.
Ian Tindale, Jun 15 2017
  

       One of the most common and terrifying conspiracy theories is the one about there being such a thing as "the government".   

       "But Daddy, there IS a Government! I saw it! It brings us roads, and makes us free, and makes a list of who's naughty and nice, and stops us all from murdering each other all the time, and ..."   

       "No, son. What you saw was people. Sometimes, grownups tell children stories to make them do things - like obeying laws and paying taxes. But when we grow up, we start thinking for ourselves. And that's why the grownups that the children call "government" have to buy millions of rounds of hollow-point ammunition - to shoot the children that think for themselves, and might stop obeying and paying taxes."   

       "But *why* do the grownups called government tell us stories and boss us about and shoot us if we disobey them?"   

       "Because they love us."
spidermother, Jun 15 2017
  

       //What's another word for perfect hue recognition in a male?// There isn't one, because "perfect" hue recognition would be meaningless. Hue is a continuous variable. What you appear to have is "good" hue recognition. People (aside from those with clear colour blindness) vary considerably in their ability to discriminate between similar hues.   

       //is it normal to have a newly opened wound to clot before you can press it to the paper? // Well well well well, another anomaly. I think it just means that you're due to get deep vein thromboses or strokes, but it's not really my field.   

       //Done// Good.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       That would make sense. My grandfather died of a stroke fairly early. He was an inventor in the family too. I wonder if there is a correlation between creativity and pressure on certain areas of the brain.
I hope you find something. It would be nice to get a bit of credit.
  

       Hey, I just noticed, your initials are PHD.   

       // I wonder if there is a correlation between creativity and pressure on certain areas of the brain.// I don't know, but if I can find a baseball bat I can help you find out.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       After all you've done for me, I wouldn't dream of imposing.   

       What weirdnesses will your dna testing be able to determine anyway?   

       Turns out after a bit more research that it is not possible to test for tetrachromacy using a computer screen so scoring zero over and over again on that hue test does not determine a forth cone in the eye. There is only one woman on the planet confirmed to be a tetrachromat.
It's that rare.
  

       Oh for fuck's sake, [2fries]. That is what I've been telling you for the last god knows how long while you've been blathering away like a moron saying "I'm a tetrachromat! I'm a tetrachromat!".   

       From your DNA I can tell how many different opsin genes you have. You will have three, just like Ernest Rutherford, Luke Slywalker and me. But since it will make you happier I will do the work and pay for the sequencing and announce the results here, which is probably illegal but who actually cares. You may also care to note that most women, who are not tetrachromats, also have greater hue discrimination than most men. It's just a feature of the female brain.   

       I could also test for the presence of radioactive spider DNA if that will forestall more nonsense further down the line.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       I'd suspect you simply have low blood pressure or high cholesterol if you don't bleed that much, or perhaps don't drink enough water?   

       Now Max, make sure you absolutely do not take advantage of 2fries and lead him to believe that he has a rare condition or is predisposed to have a rare condition of fragile t-cells or recommend that he see a genetic counselor based on suspicions of genetic electromagnetic hypersensitivity or somesuch, or lead him to believe that he is completely disappointingly normal when he in fact has a rare complication of Gleifenburg's Syndrome. Because that would be unethical...
RayfordSteele, Jun 16 2017
  

       tetrachromacy isn't that cool anyhow. The human version*, is a sort of 5nm shift in one pigment. There's no evidence it partitions to individual cells, and no evidence that even if it did, the spectral difference between the two pigments would be enough for the eye to consider wiring up a whole extra channel. At best its a sort of wobble factor in red sensitivity. It doesn't extend the range, it might just put a hump in the red sensitivity spectrum, which, if working, might be nice if you really like looking at orange stuff.   

       What you can do, I suppose, is get replacement lenses which don't block UV. Then the world outside would be a lot brighter, ans some stuff might get a bit of a blue-ish hue. Also, we can see infra red via a 2-photon mechanism, if it's bright enough <link>.   

       But all the cool stuff with vision is in the processing hardware and software. And the scanning technology. That's all pretty cool, and you can modify that with practice.   

       *as far as I can tell from a couple of papers with a poor understanding of statistics and a desperate need for better quality optical equipment. The two pigments are supposed to be a perfect Gaussian overlay 4-5nm apart. A much better experiment would involve simulating Curve A with Curve B + the intensity correction derived from the curve overlays. Then do a "which is brightest" kind of thing with 1nm bands.
bs0u0155, Jun 16 2017
  

       //that would be unethical...// As if I would, [Rayfo]. No, I'll tell him how many different opsin genes he has. Of course, what I actually test his DNA for after that is another matter...   

       Actually, it would be a doddle to use CRISPR (or, dare I mention it, Mote's own and far superior genome editing tool) to stick an engineered opsin gene into retinal cells, with a radically different spectral response - peaking at say 480nm to fill that gap. You'd probably only hit a small subset of cone cells, so you'd retain the other three opsins. I wonder if the brain would rewire to use the additional colour channel?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       //480nm// screw that, I want IR deep enough I can tell if the coffee needs nuking.
FlyingToaster, Jun 16 2017
  

       Luxvid Eyes (Jensen Wide-Angle) are what you want.   

       // It's just a feature of the female brain. //   

       <pedantry>   

       It's actually a feature of the female eye ... but yes, the neurophysiology is important too. Females have a different mix of rods and cones, a different distribution of sensor cells, and the required processing neural circuitry.   

       Males have a high-density high-resolution centre field and relatively poor peripheral vision, tuned mainly to detect movement. Women have an even density of sensors, far superior hue duscrimination and peripheral vision, but notably poorer low-light sensetivity.   

       It's related to evolutionary pressures causing gender differentiation - men are configured more for hunting and chasing. This also leads to their greater temperature tolerance range, whereas females are predisposed to be comfortable in a narrow range of 18 to 22 C, the ideal environment for human infants.   

       </pedantry>   

       (NB all the above were engineered as a result of proto-hominids getting too close to the Black Slab. S'true, really, it is ...)
8th of 7, Jun 16 2017
  

       //Women have an even density of sensors, // No. Male and female eyes both have a high-res, cone-rich area called the fovea, and a much lower-res, cone-poor (but rod-rich) area outside that.   

       As to male/female differences in the eye itself, I haven't seen much to back that up - sources, [8th]? But, in any event, the point remains that colour sensitivity varies amongst normal people, largely due to neurological differences.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       // Oh for fuck's sake, [2fries]. That is what I've been telling you for the last god knows how long while you've been blathering away like a moron saying "I'm a tetrachromat! I'm a tetrachromat!".//   

       Yes, that sort of thing will tend to happen when one has one's education flushed down the toilet and is forced to rely entirely on the internet to gain knowledge.
In all fairness, perfect hue recognition of internet tests was only a very small portion of the things I've been blathering away like a moron about.
I wasn't educationally flushed because I see colors well, it's just another difference I've noticed between myself and everybody else I've ever met.
The older I get the more anomalies I stumble upon.
I could keep them to myself I guess, but how would that help kids with my... condition from getting put through the ringer like I was?
  

       Anyway that sample is on its way. I didn't have the sixty bucks on me that they wanted for express delivery with tracking so I don't know how long it will take to get there.
I don't want you to be out any money for this so, let me know what I owe and I will reimburse you.
  

       //forced to rely entirely on the internet to gain knowledge// Yes, if only the internet were bigger and covered more topics.   

       //I don't want you to be out any money for this// The cost is too small to worry about, but thanks.   

       //The older I get the more anomalies I stumble upon.// Ah, that'll be ataxia, possibly due to multiple mini-strokes in the cerebellum caused by your anomalous clotting.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       // sources, [8th]? //   

       Google would be your friend on that one. Lots of research, lots of published information.
8th of 7, Jun 16 2017
  

       Google gave me lots of information on perceptual differences, but not on physical differences between male and female eyes, other than pupil diameter. (Mascara doesn't count. Apparently it's fake, and applied with a brush.)
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       //Yes, if only the internet were bigger and covered more topics.//   

       It's not the number of topics but the amount of disinformation out there.
There are many tests for tetrachromacy on the net and yet not one of them are legit. It's not like I pulled that word out of my ass.
  

       We are so glad about that. We have no wish to know anything about any item that is expelled or extracted from your Lower Rear Orifice.   

       // not on physical differences between male and female eyes, other than pupil diameter. //   

       You need to google harder. You clearly lack aptitude in phrasing search terms. Try "eyes government conspiracy men cover-up women peripheral black ops space aliens vision rods cones greys neurological programming masons majestic 7 templars code secret gold perception mind control"   

       Let us know when you finish reading ...   

       // (Mascara doesn't count. Apparently it's fake, and applied with a brush.) //   

       That's just what They want you to believe ...
8th of 7, Jun 16 2017
  

       //It's not like I pulled that word out of my ass.// Well, yes it is. Tetrachromacy is very fashionable at the moment and, if it exists, is incredibly rare and limited to women. You didn't know it was limited to women, and didn't know the difference between tetrachromacy and hue discrimination. But it sounded cool, and so you went for it. So, in terms of anal extraction, I'd say that was a good example.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 16 2017
  

       Enough with the anal extraction already ... it's not yours, it's not big, and it's not clever. Leave it alone.   

       Well, it might be big. But it's not yours, and it's certainly not clever ... just leave it, alright ? Don't make us come over there ...
8th of 7, Jun 16 2017
  

       //You didn't know it was limited to women, and didn't know the difference between tetrachromacy and hue discrimination. But it sounded cool, and so you went for it.//   

       It is not limited to women, but yes I did not know the difference between tetrachromancy and hue recognition.
I had no idea how fashionable or cool it sounded.
  

       Tell me, is there a single halfbaker who can get a consistent score of zero on the test that I have linked?
If so, we'll easily know that it's no mean feat and if not then... well I don't know what, just another anomaly I suppose.
  

       What was it I was supposed to have "went for"?
Your derision?
The accolades of my peers?
Money maybe?
  

       Ah, attention.   

       Yes, perhaps... but not for lies, and not for myself.
It's just a little bit late for me. Now isn't it?
  

       I consistently get a score of 7 but I do poorly on those tests with the numbers and dots so....
LimpNotes, Jun 16 2017
  

       //getting too close to the Black Slab//   

       You really should have thought of that when you left it there, [8th].
pertinax, Jun 16 2017
  

       //rely entirely on the internet//   

       [2 fries] has a good point there. The internet is a knowledge-multiplier, not a knowledge-adder. If you start with zero, and multiply it by a googolplex, you still have zero.
pertinax, Jun 16 2017
  

       A knowledge multiplier, eh? I disagree. I think the internet is a knowledge diffuser, or (in the seed sowing sense) a broadcaster. It doesn't add or subtract or multiply or divide or even equal the knowledge in existence, but if you turn it upside down it does spell BOOBS. Books and libraries didn't alter the amount of knowledge, but they did allow the knowledge amount to be altered, through application of further processes such as study, going to libraries as a rewarding thing to do, going to schools ritually, competing in academia, etc. But all those processes sat on top of the library layer. Same with the internet. Other processes must sit on top of the internet to derive functions of the sum of knowledge. Human beings have reduced this to finding new pictures of funny looking kittens and now pugs, but I for one welcome our new robot overlords as they'll indubiously manage to run inferences across our island-like knowledge to derive new knowledges we didn't know we had, then turn around and teach it back to us.
Ian Tindale, Jun 17 2017
  

       An interesting test - I've never done this kind of colour vision test before but I just tried the test that [2 fries] linked. I didn't spend too long on it, but scored 0. I don't think this means anything except that I don't have any of the common types of colourblindness. In other respects my vision is not 100% (astigmatism, hyperopia (longsightedness), presbyopia...).
hippo, Jun 17 2017
  

       // You really should have thought of that when you left it there, [8th]. //   

       In hindsight, it was a mistake. But there were all these hairy grunting proto-hominids leaping around, pulling off door mirrors and windscreen wipers, pissing on the roof, screaming, hitting one another, throwing things, and crapping all over the place.   

       It was nearly as bad as Swindon.
8th of 7, Jun 17 2017
  

       I just scored 4 on the hue-sorting test. 20–29, male (demographic score range: -139636–120000930, obviously hacked).   

       // Turns out after a bit more research that it is not possible to test for tetrachromacy using a computer screen //   

       Yes, because computer screens are trichromatic. There are tetrachromatic LCD TVs, which add yellow, but if you ran that test on one of them, the test would still be using trichromatic hues, and the TV would just be interpolating them into its tetrachromatic color space, so it wouldn't work either.   

       The proper way, I think, might be to use two (ideally computer- or Arduino-controlled) monochromators to generate two pure colors and compare their perceived brightness, and thereby measure the overall (normalized) spectral response of your eye. But the standard trichromatic M and L cones are already very close, and a yellow cone (if that's what you have) would be right between them, so it would be difficult to discern.
notexactly, Jun 17 2017
  

       //I didn't spend too long on it, but scored 0.// Oh my god - another tetrachromat!!
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 17 2017
  

       //Oh my god - another tetrachromat!!//

<cough!> Pentachromat, I think you'll find...
hippo, Jun 17 2017
  

       [hippo] is there, by any chance, a mantis shrimp anywhere on the maternal side of your family?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 17 2017
  

       The colour test that [2fries] linked to is waaay too easy. I got a perfect score too.   

       I was ready to rant about computer display colour representation, but actually that test doesn't even come close to the limit. So I took the liberty of writing my own version of the test and made it a little bit more challenging.   

       See [link]. With my humble, myopic eyes I was able to score 85%. (You can keep reshuffling and recalculate the score as many times as you like, but that's cheating).   

       But even if you score 100% on this test, it doesn't mean you have 'perfect' hue recognition, it would be easy to write an even harder test.
mitxela, Jun 17 2017
  

       Also, as I mentioned a while ago, tetrachromacy would not necessarily give you better hue discrimination. What it would give you is a different (and possibly larger) gamut. In other words, you might be able to discriminate between (a) a mix of blue and yellow and (b) green, even though those two would be _identical_ for someone with "perfect" trichromatic hue discrimination who sees blue+yellow=green.   

       So, tetrachromacy would not give you better ability to discriminate the hues displayed by a monitor, as far as I can tell. If anything, your discrimination might be worse, since you've got (presumably) the same amount of visual cortex having to handle information from four channels, with one of those channels being redundant (when viewing a regular monitor).   

       Conversely, perhaps someone with red/green colour blindness could discriminate shades of other colours more precisely, as long as they fell within their colour gamut. And I suspect that people with achromatopsia (no cone cells, no colour discrimination) could discriminate more shades of grey than someone with normal colour vision - but that's just a guess.   

       [mix] - how about writing a test at the limits of display discrimination (ie, single-bit differences), over a few small ranges? "Perfect" hue discrimination ought to cope with that, assuming that the monitor doesn't completely throw away any bits.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 17 2017
  

       That's possible, but a single-bit change will affect intensity as well as hue, so I wasn't sure if it would still be a valid test. Currently each stripe is a rotation about the Y axis in the YIQ colour space (a change in hue, while keeping perceived brightness constant).
mitxela, Jun 17 2017
  

       Good point. I guess I meant a single bit substitution (eg, reduce red by one bit; increase green by one bit), but I'm not at all expert on colour spaces.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 17 2017
  

       They aren't equivalent. For example, in camera sensors, the Bayer arrangement is a quad of one blue one red two greens, which looks okay to us. On the other hand, we objectively perceive blues as darker than greens and perceive reds as brighter, given the same technical luminance of each.   

       Another thing to consider is that most mammals are not even trichromatic but dichromatic. Primates re-evolved trichromacy as a kind of special case. One theory among other competing ones (one which I quite like, but that doesn't make it the correct one, although I'd like it to be) is that as primates lost their overall hair and left increasing areas of bare skin expense (given that we didn't really lose hair, but lost the thickness of hair making it seem as though there's no hair there) we found that it was operationally useful in higher-order social situations to have a bit of an extra 'clue' as to what was on the other primate's minds, which we found we could do if we were able to be tuned to almost imperceptible skin colour flushes. These skin colour changes are pretty much beneath our conscious discrimination, but (the theory goes) are actually not only detectable but actionable by changing our behaviour accordingly to gain value from knowing the emotional circumstances in play in the other person.
Ian Tindale, Jun 17 2017
  

       How does that play out with humans from equatorial regions who have (after evolving into a semi-hairless phenotype) developed intense melanin pigmentation as protection against excessive UV dose ?   

       Received wisdom is that human ancestors developed in the region of the East African Rift Valley. Many contemporary humans in this region exhibit notably dark skin which would most likely mask any subcutaneous capillary dilation. And how is this discriminated from a simple need for increased cooling by higher surface blood flow ?
8th of 7, Jun 17 2017
  

       (eagerly awaiting other people to post their scores on my colour test...)
mitxela, Jun 18 2017
  

       I got 88%, with my time determined by the speed of my mousework rather than my eyesight. It varied somewhat across the spectrum.   

       I also noticed that, if I looked with uncorrected eyesight (making the rectangles a bit fuzzy), I could easily improve my score.   

       [2fries], of course, will have scored 100% and perhaps even met Bigfoot whilst doing the test.   

       Incidentally, [mixt], how is the score calculated? For instance, is it just the percentage of squares in the right position? Or does it allow also for the wrongness of mistakes (eg, misplacing a square by 1 position is less serious than misplacing it by 3 positions)?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 18 2017
  

       Score uses the Levenshtein distance, which is essentially the number of moves needed to switch between the current state and the perfectly correct one. This is probably what the other test was doing too, but I expressed it as a percentage because having zero mean perfect seems silly.   

       So you can still get 90% if they're all in the correct order but just one is in completely the wrong place, but... the important thing is you can only get 100% if every position is perfect.
mitxela, Jun 18 2017
  

       I got an overall score of 60.6% on your test. It took me about ten minutes, during which I had to look away and rest my eyes briefly several times. Score breakdown: 70%, 40%, 65%, 60%, 50%, 80%, 60%, 60%
notexactly, Jun 18 2017
  

       mitxela,- I can't make any of the colour squares move at all. If they're drag and drop, I can't initiate a drag at all - I press on the square but it won't move or drag.
Ian Tindale, Jun 18 2017
  

       [IT] is presumably using a touchscreen, which might be relevant.
notexactly, Jun 18 2017
  

       I missed 4, presumably by an offset of one.
RayfordSteele, Jun 19 2017
  

       Now That is a hue test. Holy retinal burnout batman.   

       First time I tried it just after work in the daylight.
Bad idea. Any ambient or reflected light messes up the middle rows, (for me) and so although I scored 90% on the first row and 100% on the last row my score was 67.9%
So I tried it at night and had Windows install an update while I was in the bathroom, and then blue-screen-of-death when I tried it again... I really need a new computer.
  

       A few things;   

       -With the original test I linked, I could burn through it before my color receptors would get overloaded.
With this test the overlapping after images really went psychedelic quickly.
  

       - Monitor matters a lot.
On my screen with no background reflections I score
80%
45%
90%
90%
50%
65%
100%
70% for a score of 73.8%
  

       On my wife's laptop I score:
100%
80%
90%
100%
35%
70%
100%
100%
  

       for a total of 84.4%.   

       Apparently I don't see mid-range blue hues worth a shit on one screen and not the other.
huh... interesting. Thanks for that.
  

       Well done.   

       So [2fries], just out interest, what was it that led you to believe you had "perfect" hue recognition? I'm asking genuinely, because errors are interesting and informative.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 20 2017
  

       um, scoring zero every time I took that first test, and one other tetrachromat test on the net where you counted the number of hues you could see and supposedly seeing between 29 and 37 hues on the strip meant that you were one.   

       //Another thing to consider is that most mammals are not even trichromatic but dichromatic. Primates re-evolved trichromacy as a kind of special case.//   

       According to Wikipedia;
Tetrachromacy is demonstrated among several species of birds, fish, amphibians, reptiles, insects and some mammals.[2][3] It was the normal condition of most mammals in the past; a genetic change made the majority of species of this class eventually lose two of their four cones.
  

       I wonder what caused the reduction to two cones in the first place for us to be re-evolving them?
...and how many hues Sasquatches see?
  

       White. All Sasquatches see is white. And maybe some yellow as an avoidance precaution.
RayfordSteele, Jun 20 2017
  

       Well now that's just racist.   

       //scoring zero every time I took that first test, and one other tetrachromat test on the net //   

       Damn. That was certainly strong and compelling evidence. I can see how anyone with a total lack of comprehension of the relevant issues could be easily fooled.   

       I found another deeply authentic, fully legitimate test that you might want to consider taking. <link>
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 20 2017
  

       <overstrike>racist</os> snowist. Nothing but snow to see. And some ice.
RayfordSteele, Jun 20 2017
  

       Our understanding is that the sasquatch or bigfoot is found in the temperate coniferous forests of the North-Western USA and Western Canada.   

       There are certainly large, hairy, uncommunicative bipeds in the mountainous portions of British Columbia.
8th of 7, Jun 20 2017
  

       //large, hairy, uncommunicative bipeds in the mountainous portions of British Columbia//   

       My cousin Shane is not hairy, it's an easy mistake to make. When one wears plaid shirts with such fervent consistency, the skin sort of adopts the first one or two layers and of uses it as an encouraging scaffold. This is why burn units in the area tend to have a hotline set up to both LL Bean and Carhartt.
bs0u0155, Jun 20 2017
  

       // My cousin Shane is not hairy //   

       Thus by exclusion we deduce that Shane is large, uncommunicative, and bipedal.   

       May we be bold enough to suggest that you email an image of Shane to [2fries] along with the question "Is this anything like what you think you saw ?"
8th of 7, Jun 20 2017
  

       Best I could score on the harder test is a composite of 95% after giving up searching.
RayfordSteele, Jun 20 2017
  

       // Damn. That was certainly strong and compelling evidence. I can see how anyone with a total lack of comprehension of the relevant issues could be easily fooled. //   

       Right??? There are just SO many tests to take to measure human perception! Almost like it's taught at an early age and encouraged for people to be able to compare...
Since, to the extent that tests were available, I aced them, for a while there I had no way to determine otherwise did I?
I'm glad you were here to tell me the difference between hue recognition and tetrachromacy, keep me from making a fool of myself and not saying I told you so after.
Good on ya.
So sad that us uneducated riff/raff have to wade into the fray and get all messy in order to learn isn't it?
There should be a government agency or somesuch to find just such bullshit on the net and eradicate it so that I am not forced to stumble on it and be, in effect, doing their jobs for them, shouldn't there?
I bet you that if there is such an agency, their employees have gotten at least one raise in the last decade and yet I see none of them randomly doing my job for me...
Strange no?
  

       Why isn't is Quadchromatic anyway?, so that the word makes sense? What's with Tetra as the root when the only definition for that word is a Siamese fighting fish?
Do they have four cones in their eyes?
  

       //Our understanding is that the sasquatch or bigfoot is found in the temperate coniferous forests of the North-Western USA and Western Canada.//   

       Yep. Right in and around Nelson and Castlegar B.C. is where they scared the shit out of me, my brother and Echo my border collie, (God rest her soul) for two nights in a row.
I wanted to recreate the trip with some motion camera night vision equipment. Same time of year, same place, same dog, same tent, same smell, but they declared the abandoned copper mine/cave system a frigging bat sanctuary and gated off all of the entrances.
  

       Bloody shame that. Never saw one though.   

       Ooh, by the way... about the expanded hue test. I stumbled on a cheat that would let people only able to see in shades of grey to be able to score a decent percentage and fake being able to see colour on my last go 'round.   

       I betcha [mitxela] already knows what it is.
Anybody else?
  

       Simply solder a quick R-2R resistor ladder circuit across the RGB input channels at the board level on the TFT row driver circuits, to average out the chrominance?
Ian Tindale, Jun 20 2017
  

       //What's with Tetra as the root ... ?// - "Tetra-" is the prefix meaning "four", from the ancient Greek word for four - as in 'tetrahedron' - a 4-sided triangular pyramid. "Chroma" also comes from Greek - in this case the Greek word for 'colour'. It's generally considered good form for the prefix to come from the same language as the word itself (so 'tetra' and 'chroma' both come from Greek). If we constructed a word like "quadchromatic" this would be a ghastly mix of Latin ("quad", meaning four) and Greek, not unlike the made-up chimera-word "television", from the Greek "tele-", meaning "at a distance", and the Latin verb "visere" meaning "to see".
hippo, Jun 20 2017
  

       Ah, thanks. Ok, that makes sense. The only 'tetra'' I know is a brand name of juice box.   

       Probably make by the Tetra Pak company. I think their name derives from the vaguely tetrahedral-pyramid shape of some of their drink cartons, so there is a link even in your juice box between 'tetra' and the number four.
hippo, Jun 21 2017
  

       So, Latin for anatomy, Greek for math and keep'm separate. Got it.
<note to self; learn Latin and Greek>
  

       //Simply solder a quick R-2R resistor ladder circuit across the RGB input channels at the board level on the TFT row driver circuits, to average out the chrominance?//   

       Yes!
or... you could just accidentally tip your screen back far enough that the colours fade to black sequentially for each darker shade.
When you get 100% there is just a thin hue gradient 'wave' along the base of each row which is thickest in the center and tapering to either side.
  

       Tetra-Pak made the packaging (or possibly the machine that made the packaging) for Lolas*.   

       * - For the culturally challenged, a Lola was a wildly popular (during the summer) 6-7" equilateral tetrahedron of paper/aluminium-foil-lined packaging, containing a massive solid wedge of flavoured ice (and there's not one image on the 'net to show, more's the pity).   

       (and being so good, of course they went out of business, the name was bought up, and now "Lolas" are less than a quarter the size they were, and it's not even a regular tetrahedron; progress, my ass)
FlyingToaster, Jun 21 2017
  

       //keep me from making a fool of myself // Damn. Missed it by _that_ much.   

       //us uneducated riff/raff// I know many uneducated people. They form a spectrum from those who are uneducated but thoughtful, right through to those who are just uneducated. Equally, of course, plenty of educated people are unthoughtful. And of course there are those who are uneducated and incredibly proud of it.   

       //for two nights in a row.// So it's two nights now? It's a good job that everyone knows what noises Bigfoot make, otherwise it would have been difficult to make a definite identification, in the absence of actually seeing them. It's a tragedy of a missed opportunity, since you could have told us exactly what colour their fur was.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 21 2017
  

       Aren't Greek and Latin the same thing?
Ian Tindale, Jun 21 2017
  

       They both derive from an earlier Indo-European proto-language, yes.
hippo, Jun 21 2017
  

       Everything is the same.
pocmloc, Jun 21 2017
  

       I beg to differ.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 21 2017
  

       Get down on your knees then, and bend over. You've been naughty; time for Strict Schoolmistress to punish Naughty Boys ...   

       // Simply solder a quick R-2R resistor ladder circuit across the RGB input channels at the board level on the TFT row driver circuits, //   

       ... using 0104 SMD resistors ? That's a damned good trick on a contemporary surface-mount LCD driver board ...   

       // I know many uneducated people. They form a spectrum from those who are uneducated but thoughtful, right through to those who are just uneducated. //   

       Everyone's sick and tired of hearing about your family. Enough, already!   

       // Equally, of course, plenty of educated people are unthoughtful. //   

       That's how socialist governments get elected.   

       // And of course there are those who are uneducated and incredibly proud of it.   

       That's how socialist governments get elected.   

       // It's a good job that everyone knows what noises Bigfoot make, otherwise it would have been difficult to make a definite identification, in the absence of actually seeing them. //   

       Incoherent low-pitched grunts. Then again, it could just be Canucks. It usually is.   

       //It's a tragedy of a missed opportunity, since you could have told us exactly what colour their fur was. //   

       It's not fur, it's hair. A sort of dark red-brown colour, covering the entire body, including the face and the palms of your hands.   

       Like your niece Yersinia, but better looking and with a less repulsive body odour.
8th of 7, Jun 21 2017
  

       //Strict Schoolmistress// [8th], you appear to be confusing me with the Intercalary, or possibly with Sturton when he is very, very drunk.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 21 2017
  

       Well, apart from the tattoos, the scars, and the differences in size, number, and position of major limbs, it can be kind of hard to tell you apart.   

       Particularly when running for the hills with hands over ears, screaming "LALALALALALA" to try and blot out the memories ...
8th of 7, Jun 21 2017
  

       //And of course there are those who are uneducated and incredibly proud of it.//   

       Not proud of it myself, just not ashamed that I was filtered. You get what you filter for.   

       //for two nights in a row.//
//So it's two nights now? //
  

       Not just now, it was always a two night thing because that's how many nights we camped there. My little stories don't change. Look it up.   

       //It's a good job that everyone knows what noises Bigfoot make, otherwise it would have been difficult to make a definite identification, in the absence of actually seeing them. It's a tragedy of a missed opportunity, since you could have told us exactly what colour their fur was.//   

       The noises made were boulders being moved and groves of trees being bent over and uprooted. All I got to see were new foot prints the next two mornings, and a shaking border collie that wouldn't leave the tent for either night. I've seen that dog chase off bear and moose and it was the only time in her life I'd seen her shake and whine... or want anything to do with the inside of a tent.   

       Wish you'd been there. Groves of trees snapping in the pitch black of night outside our nylon walls, rocks cracking, dog whimpering all night... good times, good times.   

       Totally serious about the sodium pentothal or hypnosis by the way. I draw the line at torture of course, I've about had my share of that, but would truth serum do it for you?
If I passed a lie detector test would you still bust my balls about daring to mention the damn Sasquatches?
  

       It happened. I tell it like it is. Sue me if it damages you in some way.   

       // All I got to see were new foot prints the next two mornings// Ah - excellent! Can you link to the photos?   

       //If I passed a lie detector test would you still bust my balls about daring to mention the damn Sasquatches?// Not really. It would only distinguish between (a) you trying to fool us and (b) you fooling yourself.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 22 2017
  

       or (c) it happened.
No photos. I charge more for photos.
  

       Re Max's posted questionnaire.   

       //30. Do you have an inordinate fear of alien abduction that affects your everyday life?//   

       That would call for a 5 layer tinfoil hat and a straight jacket.   

       //14. If you are a female, have you experienced a gynecological problem that you think is related to your abduction/contact experiences?//   

       And the WRITER of that question needs the straight jacket.
doctorremulac3, Jun 22 2017
  

       //No photos. I charge more for photos.// That's a shame, isn't it? Still, ne'mind eh.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 22 2017
  

       That's hardly grounds for criticism; after all, the young ladies you hire as, er ... "entertainers" (we use the word advisedly) at your parties also charge extra for pictures.   

       They're good quality though - very professional. As are the photos.
8th of 7, Jun 22 2017
  

       [8th] you fool - those were Sturton's bonobos. Next time please bring your spectacles. And if I find out there was any monkey business...
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 22 2017
  

       We have the best girls. And the best Sasquatches. And the best girl Sasquatches. And the best hair coverings taken from scalped Sasquatches. Dyed in traditional orange per our highest-volume customer's specs.
RayfordSteele, Jun 22 2017
  

       Ahhh, Hooters for hominids. Looks like you've struck paydirt there, [Ray] ...
8th of 7, Jun 22 2017
  

       //And the WRITER of that question needs the straight jacket//   

       Have form-fitted garments gone out of fashion, again ?
FlyingToaster, Jun 22 2017
  

       ////14. If you are a female, have you experienced a gynecological problem that you think is related to your abduction/contact experiences?//   

       Why only if you are a female? Did the writer never see Alien?   

       OK, I just filled in the questionnaire with 80% "Yes", and gave them my email address. I'm hoping that these people contact me, it's going to be a lot of fun. I just love whackos.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 22 2017
  

       //I just love whackos// So do they... also sp. "wackos".
FlyingToaster, Jun 22 2017
  

       Hmmm. The opinion of The Internet seems to be divided over which is the correct spelling. However, I do recall that there was a regular motor-racing fixture called "Wacky Races", so perhaps you are not entirely uncorrect.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 22 2017
  

       OK, so, they guy who runs the "Have You Been Abducted By Aliens" website emailed me back telling me that my randomly-chosen 80% "Yes"s are typical of abductees, and offering to help. So now I have to email him back - it would be rude not to. Options are:   

       (a) tell him that I've been instructed by Zarg the Pentocular not to answer any more questions.   

       (b) explain clearly and politely that I think he is as potty as a pot.   

       (c) ask him if he knows a good way to stop the scorch-marks in my lawn from glowing eerily at night.   

       (d) your choice.   

       I am open to suggestions.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 23 2017
  

       e) "I have a message which I was told was very important to pass on to the people of Earth...   

       'Greetings from Mars. I am Abacha, former Finance Minister of the Graaaaak Kingdom, before the revolution ....' "
FlyingToaster, Jun 23 2017
  

       You could tell them the truth, that you've already made up your mind without needing proof and have no intention other than garnering attention for yourself while playing with them.   

       Wouldn't that be refreshing?   

       I'll go on record as believing in aliens. Possibly. It's a big universe out there.   

       I just don't think they're interested in picking up hillbillies and putting scientific instruments up their butts.   

       The hillbilly's butts that is. Even less likely that they're interested in picking up hillbillies and sticking instruments up their own butts.   

       So I'd say belief in the possibility of life beyond Earth is zero layers of hat. It's just when those aliens start "probing" that I get a little dubious.   

       By the way, has anybody ever considered that aliens might be extremely boring? Like some sort of a green paste that just sits there?
doctorremulac3, Jun 24 2017
  

       Remind me. What exactly is it 'we' do to those life forms we consider lower than us again?   

       Why we leave them in peace and unmolested of course... because we're far too advanced for invasive research on lower life forms. Right?   

       Research? I say we kill that green paste before it kills us.
doctorremulac3, Jun 24 2017
  

       Of course.   

       ...but first we must figure out how to weaponize it, in order to protect ourselves. It's really the only logical choice, right?
They have no spokesman and so have no choice in the matter at all.
  

       What could they possibly do about it?
What could they 'do' about these extraneous beings affectively negatively touching their lives?
Just imagine what could happen if such beings could touch back...
  

       Now wouldn't that be a thing?
To be able to affect the lives of others without any physical contact whatsoever.
Scary shit that.
  

       We should probably suppress any signs of it in our own society. It's really the only logical choice right?   

       That couldn't possibly backfire at all...   

       <drops another hungry rat into electrified maze>   

       <picks up pen and clipboard>   

       // I'll go on record as believing in aliens. Possibly. It's a big universe out there. //   

       <link>   

       "Belief" is a Bad Thing. Accepting the possibility of intelligent life outside your solar system is better.   

       // I just don't think they're interested in picking up hillbillies and putting scientific instruments up their butts. //   

       It's a dark place you don't want to go.   

       // So I'd say belief in the possibility of life beyond Earth is zero layers of hat. It's just when those aliens start "probing" that I get a little dubious. //   

       The light of reason shineth ...   

       // By the way, has anybody ever considered that aliens might be extremely boring? Like some sort of a green paste that just sits there? //   

       So, basically an extraterrestrial version of Belgians ?
8th of 7, Jun 24 2017
  

       //You could tell them the truth, that you've already made up your mind// I could, but that would be no fun at all. Seriously, are you suggesting that I take seriously the claims that aliens are abducting humans, running various tests on their genitalia, and then putting them back where they found them?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 24 2017
  

       // aliens are abducting humans, running various tests on their genitalia, and then putting them back where they found them? //   

       At this very moment, humans are "abducting" numerous dormice, penguins, pouched rats, osprey chicks, salmon, mantis shrimp and pippistrelle bats, running various tests on their bodies including but not lmited to their genitalia, and then putting them back where they found them.   

       Apparently it's called "science" ?
8th of 7, Jun 24 2017
  

       What's curious about alien life and UFOs is that the massive increase in the ease of collecting evidence about UFOs over the last decade (see link) has led to no increase at all in the number of confirmed sightings of UFOs.
hippo, Jun 25 2017
  

       Maybe they have some sort of stealth technology ?
8th of 7, Jun 25 2017
  

       No. It's because all the real UFO visits happened in the 1950's.

//I just don't think they're interested in picking up hillbillies and putting scientific instruments up their butts.//
If I was an over-excitable, alien teenager going out for a spaceship drive in the back woods of the galaxy, I absolutely would do that. It would be hilarious!
DrBob, Jun 25 2017
  

       Actually, entertainment is probably the one reason aliens would want to screw with us. A "War Of The Worlds" scenario is unlikely because there's nothing we have here that's worth all the effort to travel all that distance to get and wouldn't cost more resourses to get here than elswhere.   

       However, we are several million years advanced beyond fishes yet we catch them just to throw them back. We hunt animals for sport. An alien civilization so technologically advaned that it could snuff out all life on Earth with the twist of a slightly modified anal probe might still find enterteinment going toe to toe with us in a "Preditor" style scenario, temporarorily abandoning some measure of their technology to make it more sporting to do battle with us.   

       It would be like if we decided to go deer hunting with a rifle rather than dropping napalm or nuclear weapons on the forest to kill them.   

       Likewise, who knows what aliens might find funny? Probing a hillbilly's butt might be just the thing for a Thrombidian's boring night out with friends.   

       Gotta admit, while I myself don't find it funny, I don't find it entireley NOT funny.
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       At last, realization dawns ...   

       We're making a fortune out of your antics; the redistribution rights alone are awesome, and charging visitors on a pay-per-probe basis (includes complementary 3D video of your visit, and a certificate in a tasteful plastic-effect frame) is the icing on the cake.   

       Check out some natural history programs called "Spy in the huddle" and similar where animatronic facsimiles are introduced into wild environments. Most creatures don't notice, altho the Meerkats caught on pretty damned fast.   

       So what's to stop an alien intelligence with transstellar travel capability from planting replicas on your primitive little planet ? "They walk amongst you"... have you seen the movie Avatar ... ? Well, then.   

       Terry Wogan got away with it for decades ... he had to "die" in the end because people were getting suspicious.
8th of 7, Jun 25 2017
  

       //... have you seen the movie Avatar ...//   

       Actually I haven't. Had an anti Marine message so I passed.   

       Another reason there will probably never be a war between us and an alien civilization is because the chances of either of us being even remotely matched in technology are pretty much zero. A difference in a civilization's technological evolution of a few months can determine the winner of any given clash much less a few million years.   

       The chances of us fighting with somebody who's within a hundred thousand years of us on the evolutionary scale are pretty much non existent. Even if there were some reason for mass destruction to be wrought by one upon the other it could hardly be called a "war" any more than stepping on a bug could be called a war.   

       So all those cool science fictions stories of the 50s, ain't gonna happen.   

       Too bad. They look like fun as long as we win.
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       I would estimate that at the point that forward-facing aquatic life (perhaps but not necessarily vertebrate) evolved to live outside of a liquid substrate for lengthiable amounts of time, that is the point that is the most likely to have some amount of ancestral commonality with the ancestors of any alien life we might meet.   

       If alien life and us were to meet, I really don't think it'd be a calamity or a bad thing. I suspect that rather than them eating us or us eating them, them atomically melting us, or us signing an executive order to build a wall against them and make them pay for it, I suspect they or us will regard the other as some kind of 'pet' relationship, to the point that care will be the main driver in the coexistence.   

       They would regard our amphibian ancestors as akin to their amphibian ancestors. Of course, our frogs may not look like or resemble their frogs, but they would occupy the same niche and do the same job, so an element of mutual respect would be afforded. We would want to protect them on this foreign world.   

       Of course, the chances of this actually happening are minute.
Ian Tindale, Jun 25 2017
  

       'Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying' - Arthur C. Clarke
hippo, Jun 25 2017
  

       Two possibilities exist: either two possibilities exist, or they don't.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2017
  

       Well, that's three, then.
Ian Tindale, Jun 25 2017
  

       I don't know, both sound kind of exhilarating to me. We could be the first, there probably was a first unless I'm missing something about the way time works. Which is a distinct possibility.   

       That would carry some responsibility to carry out our programming I think. And we are programmed, as is all life on Earth, simply to survive and expand the species which might carry some challenges.   

       If we're not the only ones it's no different than not being the only life here on Earth except there probably won't be a lot of interaction. Perhaps ever. Those aliens are all really far away and I haven't seen any travel methods like warp drives or wormhole travel that have a single shred of promise or basis in reality other than making for plausible science fiction or beard stroking intellectual speculation which is worth slightly less than the beard being stroked.   

       We may be stuck here folks, and Zork from Zoltron may be stuck too. There's no guarantee of plausible, useful intergalactic travel in the nature handbook. Of course you're not going to hear that from the brainiac theoretical physicists because you don't get a lot of public grant money saying thing like: "Nothing to see here folks. You're stuck with what you can see. Maybe in a few hundred years the new iPhones will be slimmer but that's about it."   

       Just because we went from squatting in bushes biting the heads off lizards for lunch a few thousand years ago to staring at smart phones doesn't necessarily mean the trend of breakthrough innovation never ends. Like somebody learning to lift weights. I might start out bench pressing 100 pounds and work my way up to 300, but that doesn't mean in 100 years I'll be lifting 20 tons.   

       Unless I'm wrong and we figure out how to travel at the speed of light by scrambling our whatever and unscrambling it over there by the green slime on Gremulon 3.
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       //There's no guarantee of plausible, useful intergalactic travel in the nature handbook.//   

       Nah, poppycock. Travelling at 0.1C, we could be anywhere in the galaxy in 1 million years, which is absolutely no time at all. There are species of annual weed that made journeys longer than that, relative to their lifespan.   

       Also, human lifespan is going to become infinite within the next 50 years, which means we will seriously have to re-evaluate our timescale. At the moment, we're like mayflies arguing over whether we will ever be able to go from London to Edinburgh.   

       And, of course, if we ever harness enough energy to get up to 0.9999...C, we can get anywhere in a day or so, subjective time (barring acceleration and deceleration times).
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2017
  

       Well, I've said exactly that in lots of other posts, the whole evolving out of our current packaging, time becoming a non factor etc, including the problems of the "Since I now live to be a trillion years old what's the rush?" paradox.   

       As you know Max, I'm a firm believer that without the quest for eternity, (which ain't here on Earth, lease is up pretty soon when the Sun blows up.) there's no real meaning to life. That's not a depressive statement, I just think that's what we're here for.   

       And yes, you're absolutely right. Good chance we can get there.   

       Unless we can't. But I think we can.   

       Let's lose the warp drive nonsense though. Dead end.   

       I call 5 tinfoil hats.
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       //without the quest for eternity, ...There is no real meaning to life.//   

       Exactly so. And I think that applies on a personal as well as a species level. I mean, if you die, everything stops existing, and stops having existed, so there was no point. So far, every human ever born has failed at immortality, but that is bound to change soon.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2017
  

       //If you die, everything stops existing, and stops having existed, so there was no point//   

       ...unless you have children. Then you've cast a very highly modified version yourself into the future with all its possibilities, including a stab at eternal life.   

       No, it's not exactly you, but take it our leave it. Best nature has to offer.   

       And as silly as it seems, that slimy thing walking out of the primordial ooze onto land for the first time had no idea its great great... etc grandchild would set foot on the Moon. No telling where our progeny will end up. It's why we play the game. The greatest game that life has to offer.   

       And currently the only one I might add.   

       Ok, gotta get some work done. Ug. My current quest for eternity consists of paying my family's bills. Doctorremulac3 signing off.
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       // Let's lose the warp drive nonsense though. Dead end. //   

       You reckon ?   

       In 1830, Stephenson's Rocket could safely sustain 28 mph on a level track. This was the fastest that any human being had ever travelled in such circumstances (higher velocities are achievable - briefly - by free-falling from cliffs or tall buildings).   

       In 1903, powered flight by a heavier-than-air man-carrying machine was demonstrated practically.   

       In 1969 your species reached your moon.   

       That's 139 years, two unmodified human lifetimes. Not long, really.   

       It only takes a few technical and theoretical advances to make all sorts of unheard-of things not just possible, but ubiquitous and commonplace. Fifty years ago, a TV broadcast between continents was a big, special event - now, person to person video calls across the world using handheld devices are an unregarded normality.   

       All sorts of "impossibilities" have become reality ... no reason why FTL travel should be any different.   

       Even assuming a one-per-century occurrence of a Newton, a Hawking, an Einstein, a Dirac, it doesn't take long for the insights they bring to change your world.
8th of 7, Jun 25 2017
  

       //..unless you have children.// No, even then, everything stops existing when you die.   

       //no reason why FTL travel should be any different. // There are two types of universe. One, in which FTL travel is possible; and one in which it isn't. We have no idea which one we live in, but we can't change it.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2017
  

       ////..unless you have children.// No, even then, everything stops existing when you die.//   

       No, the current iteration of the previous branch of that life form dies. Life is a continuum. Yes, the sensory mechanisms, memory systems and everything else in that particular life, that particular link in the chain stops working, but its progeny and its programming continues in modified form.   

       If it's reproduced.   

       No, you don't get to sit on a cloud playing a harp but it's the best you're gonna get.   

       That being said, the death knell for death itself will be ringing soon enough. I don't see warp drive happening (unless I get proved wrong) but there's absolutely no impervious impediment to eternal life eventually. The real thing, where YOU live forever, not that gobbldygook about living forever through your kids.   

       //All sorts of "impossibilities" have become reality ... no reason why FTL travel should be any different//   

       Hey, I could be wrong, I was wrong once before. (I thought I was wrong about something and it turns out I wasn't.) <--- (Comedy gold.)
doctorremulac3, Jun 25 2017
  

       // So, Latin for anatomy, Greek for math and keep'm separate. Got it. <note to self; learn Latin and Greek>//   

       That is beautiful. When you have learned Latin and Greek, read that again to get the joke.   

       (I have a coin with "LIBERTY" and a picture of an Indian^H^H^H^H^H^H Redskin ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Native American ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H First Nation on one side, and UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and a picture of a buffalo on the other. Completely unrelated, except that it takes a certain amount of study to get the joke.)
spidermother, Jun 28 2017
  

       Haha. Very funny, because of course the animal hunted by Native Americans was in fact the Bison.
8th of 7, Jun 28 2017
  

       And even funnier in that (according to some wacky conspiracy theorists) the animal hunted by whitey as part of a plan to subdue the plains Indians was their food supply, the buffalo. As a supplement to hunting the Indians directly, of course. And all part of the business model of the United States, which (again, according to them conspiracy kooks) is not so much "Give me liberty, or give me death!" but more "Accept the 'liberty' that comes from obedience to us (sp. U.S.) or we'll give you death".
spidermother, Jun 28 2017
  

       Forget the warp drive. What you need is an ion drive, or an EM-Drive.
RayfordSteele, Jun 28 2017
  

       Well, lordy me, a coffee filter with what has every appearance of being blood-spots on it has arrived. Let the sciencing begin!
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 30 2017
  

       Make a clone!
LimpNotes, Jun 30 2017
  

       Make an army of them.
pertinax, Jul 01 2017
  

       At the very least, a Monstrous Regiment ...
8th of 7, Jul 01 2017
  

       Well, [2fries] appears to be a terrestrial species, at least insofar as he contains DNA. Further updates will follow.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 01 2017
  

       Don't make a clone.
You wouldn't like me when I'm cloney.
  

       I shall be making at least 10^6 clones, but only of your photoreceptor pigment protein genes.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 01 2017
  

       Interesting. Does every individual genetic abnormality have to be checked alone?
That seems highly inefficient. Has no one devised a test yet that will cross reference the entire code against the norm and 'ping' any anomalies?
  

       // You wouldn't like me when I'm cloney. //   

       Would we like you more if you were Clooney ?   

       "Clones to the left of me, Jedi to the right ... "
8th of 7, Jul 01 2017
  

       [2fries], I am not sequencing your entire genome. I am cloning and sequencing your opsin genes to see how many different ones there are. There will be three. They will be the same as everyone else's opsin genes.   

       If you want your entire genome sequenced, you can probably get it done for a few thousand dollars, maybe a little more if you want a half-decent analysis. Or get a 23andMe kit if you want to screen for common genetic anomalies.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 01 2017
  

       Huh. Well we already know I don't have an xxy chromosome... unless my daughter isn't mine, (which, come to think of it might have been part of what you meant when you said I might not like the answers), but I doubt that, she's a chip off the ol' block.   

       I just stumbled on tetrachromancy while researching human perception and aced all of the tests available for this word I'd never heard of before without understanding the roots of the word itself.
Yes I am ignorant, but not by choice. So far the only other human I've come across who scores zero on that first test is [hippo]. Obviously, (in retrospect), I can only be a trichromat or I'd have aced all of the middle blue hues on [mitxela]'s improved version of the hardest hue test I could find... and even 'that' test can't determine tetrachromacy.
  

       I guess my point is that, these things should not be something I am having to chase down and pay to have analysed now that I'm pushing fifty.   

       How an individual human brain perceives determines how that individual human brain learns.   

       Until determining this at a young age becomes the norm then our education systems are nothing more than filters purposely designed to exclude the non neurotypical from being anything but ignorant.   

       This will change now.   

       [2fries], I have devastating and disappointing news for you. You are trichromatic, and have the same three opsins as most other people.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2017
  

       [MB] what are you trying to hide with this deliberate misinformation?
pocmloc, Jul 07 2017
  

       Well, that's the USD$64,000 question, isn't it ?   

       It depends who you think he might be working for. Our money's on the Tahitian Mafia, they do a lot of stuff in the illicit coconut trafficking line ...   

       Or it could be that the analysis is just the result of incompetence, laziness, sloppy lab procedure and faulty equipment, in which case it's definitely the British government behind it all ...
8th of 7, Jul 07 2017
  

       //[MB] what are you trying to hide with this deliberate misinformation?// There are genetic anomalies, which are due to mutations in the DNA sequence. Then there are epigenetic anomalies, which are due to oddities in the way the DNA is expressed and regulated. Then there are epi-epigenetic anomalies, which are due to oddities in the behaviour of the person owning the DNA. I suspect that [2fries]'s anomalies are of the third kind. That said, I did not look for Sasquatch-derived sequences, or indeed anything other than opsin genes.   

       //Tahitian Mafia// I won't hear a word against them. Cecil and Tony are absolutely delightful chaps, and they work their fingers to the bone - trying to organise crime in Tahiti is like trying to herd cats. And in any case, I only consult for them.   

       // incompetence, laziness, sloppy lab procedure and faulty equipment// I have the competence of a competent person, superb lab procedures and the finest equipment of any private lab in the UK. I know it is hard to accept, but there is at least one part of [2fries] which is normal. I had 24 clones from an opsin-specific PCR sequenced, and saw only three different opsins. If he had a fourth one, the odds of not seeing it in 24 clones would be 0.25^24, or about 1 in 10^14.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 07 2017
  

       Three opsins. Check. No tetrachromacy just kick-ass hue recognition for a male that also sees visual snow. Gotcha.
Thank you for the confirmation. Too bad you can't determine random genetic abnormalities from a single test. That would be cool. Such a test would make you a genetic God... right up until they shot you for interfering with profits.
  

       One abnormality down, umpteenth more to go.
I don't really much care whom anybody works for though. I gotta say, if 'they' are in the way of kids who are like I was growing up then all of those organizations will topple like the card-houses they in fact are.
Those who's decisions have touched my life will learn. If their decisions were made without conscious awareness, due to misinformation of the consequences their actions would have to the child I was, they will be spared. Those who knew very well what they were doing to the child I was are in for a shit-storm of epic proportions.
You're all touchable.
  

       You'll see.   

       One day... you "will" give me credit for telling it like it is.   

       Until then...   

       ...how 'bout them Kelowna Rockets eh?
Quite a year for them boys.
  

       Proviso 1:   

       - Those who knew consequences beforehand and changed their minds after meeting me get what they deserve one way or the other... proviso 2 et al pending, ad infinitum etc.   

       Those who 'just now' fragged the original visual snow forum I admin are in for a particularly nasty little bit comeuppance.   

       You cowardly fucks.   

       //I did not look for Sasquatch-derived sequences//
Wait, wasn't that the point of the exercise ?
  

       (lol, Wikipedia entry for Gigantopithecus blacki - the comparison chart looks like they just cut'n'pasted a Bigfoot silhouette)   

       [2f] sorry about your forum - hope it's back soon. Closest I've come is making a light fixture disappear a few decades ago - afraid my brain just isn't that plastic.   

       //Rockets// Generals' hometown is closest to me... ;D
(okay, actually the Steelheads by a couple klicks, but you won't have heard of them... yet)
FlyingToaster, Jul 07 2017
  

       //right up until they shot you for interfering with profits.//   

       [2fries], the biggest business at the moment is to try to do exactly what you suggest - to be able to sequence and analyse a complete genome at very low ($100 or less) cost. You really, really have not got the first fucking clue how science or scientists work, have you? So why not just keep quiet and stop looking like a complete moron. As it is, I PCRd and subcloned the genes you were interested in, and had them sequenced, at zero cost to you. So, frankly, go fuck yourself.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2017
  

       He can do that ? You found that out from his genome, too ? We thought you were only screening for visual abnormalities...   

       Hey [2fries], would you, like, post a picture somewhere ? [MB] seems convinced you have "special talents" ... or at the very least, an interesting and grotesque deformity...
8th of 7, Jul 08 2017
  

       He has a youtube channel if I recall.
RayfordSteele, Jul 08 2017
  

       I've got no beef with scientists. Scientists do not suppress their own findings.
Even one's who poke me with a stick and tell me to go fuck myself.
  

       See this is why I like you, you're feisty.   

       Strange, and not mutual.   

       What offends me is that, from a viewpoint of deep, deep ignorance, you accuse my colleagues - fellow scientists - of being complicit in suppressing findings which might, in some mysterious way you haven't thought through, harm "big pharma".   

       Well, my little fuckwit, one of my colleagues (Sir Greg Winter) founded the most successful biotech company in the UK (Cambridge Antibody Technology, now part of Medimmune), and he (with a very little help from me) developed humanized antibodies which (a) have saved or extended tens of thousands of lives and (b) make up 5 of the top 10 revenuing drugs worldwide. You don't get pharma much bigger than that.   

       Nobody tried to suppress anything.   

       Another colleague and friend, Richard Henderson, founded Heptares based on a new class of therapeutic targets (GPCRs). It was bought a few years back for US$400 million. He gave most of his personal share back to the publicly-funded MRC LMB where he worked, and still works. Again, you don't get pharma much bigger than that.   

       Again, nobody tried to suppress anything.   

       All of these people do what they do because they want to make clinical discoveries that save people's lives. Many of them have succeeded to a degree utterly beyond your understanding. People are alive today because of what they have done.   

       When someone makes a breakthrough that leads to a new class of therapeutics, it may surprise you to know that investors throw money at them and tell them to go for it. Oddly enough, the investors seem to want these discoveries to see the light of day and come into widespread use. That, you idiot, is the whole fucking point.   

       Then some little whining no-clue shit like you comes along with a moronic and unworkable conspiracy theory which insults not just me, but a lot of much smarter and better people. The theory revolves around the idea that (a) people would rather supress a new therapeutic than make lots of money from it and (b) the scientists who have worked for years or decades to produce it are happy to go along with this.   

       So, to summarize and clarify, [2fries], you really can go and fuck yourself, m'kay? If you have a problem with that, I believe my home address is known to you; my company's address also; and my email address is freely available on my profile as well as on my company's website. I'm still waiting for [rcarty] to show up on my doorstep as promised.   

       I trust I have made myself quite clear.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2017
  

       I think you've cured him.
Ian Tindale, Jul 08 2017
  

       Undoubtedly.   

       Methinks thou doth protest too much.
Like I said, my words don't affect the lives of highly educated people.
I'm a nobody, yet you seem almost desperate to discredit me when I have not a stitch of accreditation to my name. I'm immune to that shit.
Say whatever you want about tile setters and I'm not going to get my panties all in a bunch over it.
  

       Here's the thing;   

       I attack nobody. Not a single living critter on this planet other than the few insects that the women folk in my life have coerced me into extinguishing, (and more than half of them have been caught and released without harm... don't tell the girls).
I do on the other hand reserve the right to defend myself like a rabid badger when cornered.
  

       In the fifteen years I've been a halfbaker I have yet to bump heads with a single other individual here. I've just been posting my little ideas and telling my little not-so-tall tales and I don't rub anybody the wrong way.
Just you [MB].
Why is that?
Why you trying so hard to chase me away from the only place I ever felt I belong? Are you that fucking insecure?
Because halfbaking is literally what I do. It doesn't require an education or societies help or even your vaulted approval. It's what I was doing long before [jutta] created this site and it's what I'll be doing for the rest of my life. I wasn't friended in, I didn't buy my way in, and I didn't bully my fucking way in. I'm just a halfbaker. Can't change that and I refuse to not be me.
You don't like me?...
ok...
and?...
  

       Chuck you Farley. Get over it.   

       It feels just like going back to junior high school days with you when I'd get harassed by the biggest bully on the playground, except in this instance you're kind of like the vice principal here, and so I've got the vice fucking principal chasing me around the playground shouting insults and declaring me all sorts of things I'm not while hiding behind a shield of being offended that I question the validity of the attacks while defending myself against them. It's pathetic and quite beneath you.
Leave me alone so I can go back to having fun playing with ideas again ya big bully.
  

       Yes I think that there is a conspiracy to weed out any individuals exhibiting physical characteristics displayed by Tesla, (he wrote about seeing what sounds an awful lot like visual snow and could also build things in his head without needing to experiment anywhere else... sound familiar?), and other great thinkers of the past, and that the admonitions of Albert Einstein about expecting a fish to climb a tree were not only ignored but used to design the entire educational curriculum in order to halt innovation in order to maintain the status quo and the power bases that existed at the time that decision was made.
I think that I am considered to be acceptable collateral damage of decisions that were made by corrupt individuals before I was even born, and that the odds of me making it this far in life with my cognitive processes and sanity intact were so remote that I, and those like myself, were deemed an acceptable loss to people who control the flow of information.
You throw your children into the volcano to pretend it doesn't exist.
Prices always seem cheap to those who don't have to pay them.
  

       Find yourself another whippin boy, this one's been emancipated already. If it bothers you so much to be one of my teachers then you should probably stop being so verbose where I hang out.   

       As far as I can tell you are the only one who figures that the playground ain't big enough for the two of us.   

       Good thing that the place is about ideas and not about egos eh?
Had any good ideas lately Hoss?
  

       Rabid badger?? Well, at least I got a chuckle out of it.   

       Anyway, enough troll-feeding from me. If you want to sort it out, you know where to find me.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2017
  

       I like both of you guys, hope you bury the hatchet eventually.   

       I'll shut up now.
doctorremulac3, Jul 08 2017
  

       There's only the one role to occupy, there hasn't been an alternative role to transition to or trade up to, the old role is still the current role and for the foreseeable future it'll be the only role to occupy. Unless another role is offered.
Ian Tindale, Jul 08 2017
  

       [2fries], may I ask you a question, in earnest? Is there any conspiracy theory that you don't believe?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2017
  

       I kind of need you to understand this.
Before I met my wife, my life was hand-to-mouth, town to town and I couldn't stop bouncing. Didn't trust banks, cashed all of my checks and kept all of my cash on my person. If she wasn't a bookkeeper I would probably still have not been introduced to the internet.
As much as you might enjoy that, I had absolutely no preconceptions of anything before that time.
  

       I joined the halfbakery at the same time I discovered the internet. I typed the word "idea" into my 'then' fiancés computer, and when the site Ideas.com folded after I had posted a couple of notions I found this place the second time I typed that same word in again.
I didn't know I was supposed to pretend to be somebody other than myself on the net.
I didn't know much of anything other than my own little thoughts.
Y'all are my teachers... ain't it grand?
  

       Everything I've managed to absorb past a grade eleven level has mostly been gleaned by participating in conversations on this one site in particular.
Back then I was like the closest thing to a blank slate you are likely to find.
  

       I am not a conspiracy theorist.   

       ...but as far as I have been able to determine, my perception seems to be part of a conspiracy in which some folks seem mighty determined that I and those like me be considered "cripplingly disabled", "brain dysfunctional", and unable to operate machinery while refusing to examine those of us who claim not to suffer.
Any halfbaker who has been in a car I've driven knows that I can operate machinery just fine.
  

       Right now there are kids out there who see just as I did growing up.
The parents of those kids are going to buy-in to whatever the hell their doctors tell them when they explain their childs' perception.
Those doctors are going to have absolutely nothing to go on other than the lop-sided selection-biased research currently being conducted on the phenomena and the parents of those kids like me are going to be coerced into willingly medicating their children into not being able to develop my little "gifts".
These gifts all seem to have something to do with an enlarged pineal gland and having one's minds eye open... kind of like how I can see and build novel inventions in my head... and other stuff.
The gland secretes melatonin, serotonin, tryptophan, and dimethyltryptamine. Fluoride collects there and causes premature calcification and asymptomatic cascade response of the entire endocrine system when the gland turns to stone.
  

       This led to the suppression of the word Hypermelatoninism and is where I even stumbled upon any of this crap at all after discovering the term Visual Snow at forty.   

         

       That's the one and only conspiracy theory I've ever subscribed to... and even then only because I'm the guy who connected the dots.
I figure that if I wasn't touching a nerve, there would be no reaction at all.
It seems to have stirred up all kinds of shit though.
  

       What do you think?   

       I think you're nuts, [2fries], if I'm frank. But why (and indeed how) would the word "hypermelatonism" be suppressed? This is a serious question - I figure that if we talk through the reasons for, and mechanism behind, this "suppression", then one or the other of us ought to end up convinced of the other's point of view.   

       So, let's work this one through systematically. We could start with the "why" part.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2017
  

       What other people think of me is none of my business, but you seem to insist on making sure that all and sundry know very well what you think of me.
Didn't you just fling the label troll at me and say I shouldn't be fed?
  

       I think you need an ego check.   

       The powers that be don't want another Tesla. I think that boy came very close to tipping their little power-hungry canoe over. If he had been just the teensiest bit less selfless I think he could have just grabbed the reins for himself.
How would the gas and oil industry survive with everybody having an unlimited supply of free energy and driving around electric cars powered wirelessly?
  

       If the assholes du jour hadn't crushed him there's a good chance that we'd not be in this climate change mess his "betters" created, we would also be colonising other planets by now, but instead we have a world perpetually at war with itself.   

       So... do you see anybody looking really hard to find children that share physical characteristics with Nichola Tesla so that they can be properly taught and maybe advance his work, or am I the only one that made it through their filter?   

       Did you even use the wayback machine to see the two pages of word-soup/pharmaceutical brand-name hyperlink internet hits for the word hypermelatoninism change to addresses in Pitsfeild Illinois for twenty minutes before disappearing altogether on the exact day that I mentioned the word here for the first time?
Or is it easier to fling labels without needing any pesky facts?
  

       // I'm still waiting for [rcarty] to show up on my doorstep as promised. //   

       Oh ... <embarrassed cough>   

       Errr ... you remember you said "I'm going for a bath now, if that bugger rcarty shows up just take care of him, OK ?".   

       We, er, think we may have misunderstood what you meant ... sorry. He did show up, and we, er, well, "took care of him" ... you know ... err ... sorry.   

       If it's of any use, the bits are in the little carved wooden box on top of the upright piano in the Second Best Practice Ballroom.   

       Er.... sorry. You did actually want to see him then ? We thought when you said "take care of him" ... you know, like when charity collectors and carol singers come calling ? Oh well ...
8th of 7, Jul 09 2017
  

       //The powers that be don't want another Tesla.// Ah yes. The Powers that Be. See, this is the basis of all conspiracy theories - they are just not thought through with any kind of rigour. People just wave their arms and say "the powers that be" whilst hooding their eyes. Sometimes it's "the gubment", of course.   

       If the "powers that be" were one tenth as good at organising things as you seem to believe them to be, we'd all be in a much better world.   

       >>>Also, why do "the powers that be" not have the ability to tamper with the Wayback machine's archives? If these powers are so dark and so great, that seems like an elementary step to take.<<<   

       Sorry, [2fries], I know I'm banging on, but you're the perfect conspiracy theorist and it's hard not to.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2017
  

       I don't think that people are predisposed to have conspiracy theories by themselves. I think there's some other force out there that influences people to think that there are conspiracies.
Ian Tindale, Jul 09 2017
  

       I think it's the conspiracy theorists that are the dangerous ones. For instance, conspiracy theories lead to people not having their kids vaccinated, which kills children. Conspiracy theorists persuade people to treat their cancer with reiki instead of conspiratorial big-pharma therapeutics, which kills people. Ultimately, ISIS is an organisation of conspiracy theorists wearing tea-towels.   

       Reason is not always the best option, but it's usually the least bad.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2017
  

       Somehow the story doesn't add up. Before coming here he was a blank slate, yet has an amazing ability to learn things quickly. What were you doing before you came here?
RayfordSteele, Jul 09 2017
  

       Propose Conspiracy Theory Non-acceptance Rating, all to be measured in microMaxwells.
LimpNotes, Jul 09 2017
  

       This is a weird post. It's like I threw a party but when I came back with cupcakes, there was a riot going on and bloody bodies strewn all over the dance floor.   

       What can you do but say "Oh well, more cupcakes for me."   

       Like the idea of a "skeptic rating" though. I think the search for truth should start with a blank slate, believing in absolutely nothing and moving from there.
doctorremulac3, Jul 09 2017
  

       //Somehow the story doesn't add up. Before coming here he was a blank slate, yet has an amazing ability to learn things quickly. What were you doing before you came here?//   

       Surviving.   

       I got tossed like yesterdays trash prepubescent and uneducated into the northern Canadian oil patch weighing about 130 pounds for the next decade. No family. No safety net. No workers comp rules, and guys dropping like flies.
I spent years in that shit before I even had hair on my balls, fuck, I'd been to jail before then... a few times if you count over-nighters.
I've been beaten and left for dead in a blizzard, I've been running for all I'm worth on the top of a truckload of pipe that popped its pins and had to out run it or die, I charged a fucking moose cow because it was my only option, I...
  

       It took every single teeny little bit of my cognitive and intuitive functions... and then some, to survive my childhood let alone the years after that.   

       I tells it like it is.   

       //why do "the powers that be" not have the ability to tamper with the Wayback machine's archives?//   

       Maybe they do. Don't know. Never used the wayback machine.
Maybe enough people who give a shit saw what I'm talking about before hand. Maybe not.
What do I know?
  

       [2fries], that's the point I'm making.   

       I'm now cool, calm and collected, and will even apologise for my ad hominem comments.   

       But, now that I'm cool, calm and collected, I would seriously like to talk through one of your theories - namely the theory that "hypermelatoninism" has been in some way suppressed by the powers that be. Maybe you'll convince me, or maybe I'll convince you.   

       So, coolly and calmly, to begin with, who do you think is behind this suppression?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       A croissant wrapped in 6 layers of tin-foil for you! ++
xandram, Jul 10 2017
  

       //So, coolly and calmly, to begin with, who do you think is behind this suppression?//   

       I never stopped being cool and calm. If you are just going to patronise me some more save your breath.
It probably started with Westinghouse and whichever other assholes were involved in squashing Tesla and suppressing his work.
  

       Do you have any idea how he used to be able to experiment and accurately create inventions entirely in his head?   

       I do.   

       How come our doctors and teachers don't seem to know that such visualization skills are a standard ability of the human mind if developed properly?
How come you weren't taught how to do it?
How come the one's who can do it are run out of the education system on a greased rail?
  

       Nobody in power wants another Niochola Tesla, and it's been seen to.   

       Thank you Xan. I tip my 6 layer tinfoil hat to you.   

       Hey Max and 2fries, at the risk of a punch in the mouth, I'm the last person to talk about getting along on this site, but I do have a theory about aggression and disagreement not specific to your situation that may or may not be worth the time it takes to read it.   

       I look at disagreements as two gears turning out of sync. Let's say gear A has the right idea and wants gear B to reverse its direction and mesh with him so there's two things he can do.   

       1- Turn the way he wants the mechanism to go as fast as he can and just lay into gear B who is turning the wrong way. Sparks will fly but if gear A is made of stronger material, gear B will eventually wear down and presumably change directions and sync with gear A, albeit all broken and worn down. Additionally, gear A will probably suffer some damage. If the broken, worn down B does eventually turn in gear A's direction, it won't be working very efficiently.   

       2- Gear A can, for a moment, reverse its direction and sync with gear B temporarily and when that strong sync has been established, gradually apply pressure to stop and then switch the direction of both gears. Gear A will still need to be just as strong, but the advantage is, not only will gear B come out of this reconfiguring with less damage, so will gear A and there's a stronger possibility that B will be turning in the right direction intact and therefore a more useful part of the mechanism. It'll just take gear A tolerating taking a temporary break from its standard mode.   

       So I might not believe in most conspiracy theories, but when talking to the person who thinks George Bush operated the remote control of the planes that hit the twin towers, I might find that "mesh point" we both share, a general distrust of government perhaps, and "turn that way" just for a moment to establish useful contact, then slow his roll while maintaining sync. Might take a little more time but it might actually change his direction instead of just breaking him down.   

       Again, I'm sharing this analogy not because I'm good at arguing with people, just the opposite, I'm incredibly BAD at arguing with people. That gear A in the story that just blasts into people and destroys them is me. I might leave gear B worn to a nub but I find that I seldom change their direction.   

       So I'm sharing this analogy as somebody who's awful at disagreeing with people and who's interested in alternatives to being awful at disagreeing with people.   

       Ok, NOW I'll shut up.
doctorremulac3, Jul 10 2017
  

       [2fries] no, I'm not planning to patronize. I figure that, since we have diametrically opposed views, the only way forward is to pick one particular example and take it step by step, to see if you can convince me, or I can convince you.   

       My theory is that one of us is operating under a misconception. We each think it's the other, obviously, but I at least am happy to admit that it might be me. It's not my research field, so I can't pull rank on you, and we are both starting from the same level.   

       The example I was picking was not Tesla (about whom there have been many books and a lot of history), but your theory that work on hypermelatoninism has been supressed. This seems to me like a manageable question and one that ought to be tractable to discussion.   

       My suggested starting point was the question "who has supressed research into hypermelatonism?". Or, if that is not an answerable question, I guess it would be "which type of people have a motive for supressing research into hypermelatonism?".
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       Just to stir the pot a bit, I believe (in fact I know) that there are all sorts of conspiracies going on in the world. But they mostly involve greedy people conspiring to rob us gullible people of all our goods & chattels (see also spidermother's comments regarding 'government' for further reference).

On the other hand, there is absolutely no need for anyone to conspire to suppress a word like 'hypermelatoninism' because it's a godawful mouthful & (almost) nobody in the world uses it anyway.

//George Bush operated the remote control of the planes that hit the twin towers//

Hadn't heard that one before, doctorremulac3. I wonder what he was actually aiming at!
DrBob, Jul 10 2017
  

       Yes but, to emphasize (see previous annotation), I want to go through [2fries]'s theory step by step with the aim of finding:   

       (1) If there are people who would have a motive to suppress research into hypermelatonism   

       (2) How they are believed to have suppressed it   

       (3) Whether that process of suppression could actually work, at least in theory   

       If the answer to (3) is "yes", then that makes it interesting and, presumably, I will have learned something.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       Possibly, but I guess that what you learned would make you a) either too dangerous to be allowed to live & you would be mysteriously rubbed out, like Jimmy Hoffa & all those Iraqi scientists (not sure if the two events are connected. Probably they are) or b) promoted to the executive board of the Illuminati or the Gnomes of Zurich or the MCC.

In the latter case, this may have already happened so your passionate, anti-conspiracy protestations are only to be expected & should be ignored on the grounds of your obviously compromised morality.
;o)
DrBob, Jul 10 2017
  

       Don't flatter yourself docemc3. My gearteeth are in pristine shape. Sometimes I just open the clutch and let you freewheel, as there is no useful product output anyway.   

       Max, explain to me your position again on global climate change, juxtaposing that with your position on conspiracy theories. I'm a little lost there.
RayfordSteele, Jul 10 2017
  

       My position on climate change (at least, man-made climate change) is that (a) I'm skeptical, based on the science behind it and (b) the political/social climate makes it very difficult to have a reasoned, objective discussion about it, because it has become a religion.   

       But, lest it be lost in the flow of annotations, I again appeal to [2fries] to start the ball rolling on a reasoned discussion by saying who (or what sort of person) is suppressing work on hypermelatoninism.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       (Max) As for the climate change "debate", I too don't see a lot of promise in trying to change anybody's mind at this juncture. I also don't enter a debate when I'm given a choice of two positions, in this case A) "There is no such thing as man made climate change." or B) "The only solution is a global dictatorship of a few self appointed leaders controlling every aspect of everything everywhere."   

       Additionally, I'm not allowed to include discussion of nuclear power since it doesn't benefit the world wide climate savior cabal.   

       Like any other religious discussion, and it has turned into a religion, complete with saints, prophets and demons, it's probably not worth my time debating the true believers.
doctorremulac3, Jul 10 2017
  

       Agreed, on climate change. I may be right, or I may be wrong, and it doesn't matter. Whatever the truth, the weight of opinion will be behind anthropogenic climate change for a while. Then it will suddenly swing back and overshoot to the opposite extreme. Eventually some other issue will become more important, and then climate change research will be able to make some actual progress.   

       But (again, for [2fries]) - I'm focussing on a particular topic ("has research on hypermelatonism been suppressed?"), and I believe that it's possible to have a rational discussion with [2fries], to see if either of us can present arguments to convince the other. So, the opening question stands: who (or what type of person) is suppressing research on hypermelatonism?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       Geez, doc, lighten up. Poking fun at past battles. That's all. I have zero desire to reengage with you on any substantial topic, and sure as hell don't follow you around.   

       Max, I didn't think Mr. Hawking was predisposed to religious indoctrination. While not being in the field, surely he does have a bit of credence?
RayfordSteele, Jul 10 2017
  

       Nasty response deleted.   

       But really, let's not get into it again.
doctorremulac3, Jul 10 2017
  

       //Max, I didn't think Mr. Hawking was predisposed to religious indoctrination.// If you mean Stephen Hawking is a global warming believer, then that's fine. However, when it comes to climate science he's no further ahead than I am. He's also vulnerable to radio interference. I'd agree with anything he has to say about black holes, though.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2017
  

       Maybe we should ask him about how long this thread can be before it collapses into one...
RayfordSteele, Jul 10 2017
  

       Suppression as a topic has really hit me this year. I'm increasingly thinking "Where has the news gone?" and surf many online video channels to look at the tickers to see whats happening.   

       It is surprising. A big one is Sky News who late in the evening change their ticker to "News Alert: Real newspapers will be printed in one hour". That is the only ticker. For some reason they think that suppressing all news for an hour is in their best interests for viewer numbers - weird.   

       This is akin to various Rail subsidiaries finding out that the real money is in advertising and filling all platforms and trains with screens even though the trains fall off tracks, are late and ticket prices go up by 30% a year. I guess 50% of all video shown in rail cars says "You like travelling by train".   

       It's not suppression, its just crappy business.   

       The truth is usually unprofitable and that's why its under-represented in the media.   

       I did a lot of digging on diabetes a while back and there is very little online, mostly misleading. If I could take a step back and reason why *that* is, its because medical professionals are trying to help but only the simplest version is offered for wider digest. There could be some awesome minor cases to look at, but for the time being the broad brush is all we get - it's still the 2010's.   

       Hey, the internet was still crappy 15 years ago so if you are 30 now and have got 10-15 years further education, why not stick that online for free ?   

       And to think that before the internet, some nasty local or regional councilor could have been embezzling who knows what and usually still does in the US under some semi-approved legislation under zoning or local education skimming.   

       Seriously, people in the US and most of the world are too busy skimming to suppress anything.
bigsleep, Jul 10 2017
  

       //My suggested starting point was the question "who has supressed research into hypermelatonism?". Or, if that is not an answerable question, I guess it would be "which type of people have a motive for supressing research into hypermelatonism?".//   

       Alright now, hold your horses. I bust my ass more hours than not with no access to a computer. I only get to spend a few minutes a day with you folks, sometimes an hour or two on weekends. I'll answer any rational questions you have but first I want you to answer mine;   

       How come our doctors and teachers don't seem to know that such visualization skills are a standard ability of the human mind if properly developed?   

       How come you weren't taught how to do it?   

       Oh, and have you bothered to check on the validity of my statement that two pages of word-soup drug-company hyper-link hits for hypermelatoninism redirected to various Pittsfield Illinois locations for twenty minutes before vanishing entirely after mentioning them here first, (and only here) after a month or so long glitch-wait?   

       Those would be good starting points for our mutual understanding process.   

       Did it occur to you that Tesla might have been lying? "Prodigal Genius" was written by a quack, most of it is made up, and all the other biographies seem to copy from it. Tesla's autobiography is much more toned down, and even then his visualizing of magnetic fields is not all that impressive when you consider he'd had a university education in electrical engineering and had been studying that problem for about a decade.   

       It annoys me that Tesla gets so much attention when other greats from the same period, for instance Oliver Heaviside, are almost unknown. He probably contributed more to electrical engineering than Tesla did, yet nobody's heard of him because he hated publicity and never announced even a single death-ray.
mitxela, Jul 10 2017
  

       //nobody's heard of him because he never announced even a single death-ray.//   

       A common rookie mistake.
doctorremulac3, Jul 10 2017
  

       //rookie mistake.//   

       Right?!   

       Tesla might have been lying, sounds to me like enough of a social outcast to not care to be one. Could be wrong, I never met the man. Never heard of Oliver Heaviside either... Thanks.
To the Google-mobile!
  

       When I were a lad, attending art college to do Product Design (also called Industrial Design in other places), the thing we did was to design 3D objects or products (this was before the widespread use of computers, for example the college didn't even have one, nor did any of the students). Some of the students would go in the direction of furniture design, others designed other woodwork-y products, others did metalwork-y products, I tended to favour working with plastics. The design stages involved thinking up the product, the design for it, and getting it down on paper, progressively getting it to a design that can actually be made. Then we make it (or at least, a prototype of it, maybe working, maybe just a block model to simulate the shape and weight and feel and look of it).   

       The bit between the brief and getting stuff down on paper obviously involves dreaming it up in your head. None of us were unable to do this. Everyone I know must've done it at some stage, in whatever field they are in (or if they're not a farmer, whatever line of endeavour they are involved in). It'd be highly unusual to not have any imagination such that the only time you could visualise a thing in development is when you are utterly surprised at what you've just drawn on paper, having just seen it for the first time. Of course people see things in their heads in adequate detail long before picking up a pencil. It wouldn't work any other way.
Ian Tindale, Jul 10 2017
  

       //How come our doctors and teachers don't seem to know that such visualization skills are a standard ability // Here in the UK at least, it's long been accepted that different students have different learning modes. In fact (and my wife teaches, so I know), lessons have to be structured to accommodate different learning types (textual, visual, operational). At least that's the case where my wife teaches, I don't know about everywhere.   

       //validity of my statement that two pages of word-soup drug-company hyper-link hits for hypermelatoninism// Well, how would I do that? In any case, I am happy to believe you on that one.   

       So now, may I please ask: who (or what kind of people) is/are suppressing research into hypermelatonism?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017
  

       // How come our doctors and teachers don't seem to know that such visualization skills are a standard ability of the human mind if properly developed? //   

       Ah. I think I can help with that. At least as regards teachers. I recently had an opportunity to review (briefly) the current state of educational theory (by borrowing some of my wife's course books while she retrained as a teacher). In summary, it's shambolic. It's entrenched camps of warring ideologues. It's inward-looking. It's petty and bitchy. It is *not* run by Westinghouse. It is *not* targeted against insubordinate pineal glands.   

       I can well believe, [2 fries], that you had an education brutally inappropriate to your needs. But it was probably by mistake. Mostly.
pertinax, Jul 11 2017
  

       Bingo. Ah, the American school system. Such a first-class model of what not to do for so long, and a prime reason why any vast conspiracy theories fall flat. Conspiracies require competence.
RayfordSteele, Jul 11 2017
  

       //who (or what kind of people) is/are suppressing research into hypermelatonism?//   

       I Don't know.
When I try to research the pineal gland it becomes very hard not to wade into ancient mysticism. Knowledge about the minds' eye has been kept esoteric since at least ancient Egypt so I'm thinking that Tesla was just another freak who slipped through a slightly looser gauntlet than the one I was forced to run due to America being such a young country at the time.
  

       /Of course people see things in their heads in adequate detail long before picking up a pencil. It wouldn't work any other way.//   

       I don't just see things in my head [Ian], I build them, tweak them, try them out, can see every detail and change them on the fly.
They are as tangible in my head as they are out here, and I know whether they'll work out here if they work in there.
  

       It's not just the object I can visualize either, it's the physics of it whether the widget is in air water or vacuum, and in almost every case I get to see the finished product or experiment before I even begin to research and learn the words for what I've been shown.
That's what it feels like.
Like it isn't something "I" am doing at all, but something I'm being shown when I go to that place in my head where I forget 'me'.
  

       Tell me that shit's normal.   

       //I Don't know.// [2fries], you've got a theory that someone, or some people, are trying to suppress research into hypermelatoninism. OK, you don't know who it is (or who they are). That's fair enough.   

       OK, so next question: have you got any ideas as to _why_ someone (or some people) would want to suppress research into hypermelatoninism? I figure we ought still to be able to make some progress.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017
  

       //Tell me that shit's normal.//   

       For an experienced and dedicated craftsman, in his own field, it's ... not *that* abnormal. I mean, when I was in practice, I could sometimes spot intuitively that source-code was defective some time before I could give you the reason. So, not everyone can do what you describe, but, equally, it doesn't quite qualify you for Hogwarts. Sorry. I'm not mocking. I'm just trying to offer perspective.
pertinax, Jul 11 2017
  

       I think most people who are "mechanically minded" can imagine something that's not yet built and see, for instance, that this strut is going to buckle, or that part is not going to clear another part. Some people are better at it than others, though. As with [pertinax], I'm not mocking or diminishing - just saying that it doesn't necessarily indicate an abnormality.   

       But, to press on, may I reiterate the last question, viz. _why_ some unknown person or persons would want to suppress research into hypermelatoninism.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017
  

       //For an experienced and dedicated craftsman, in his own field, it's ... not *that* abnormal.//   

       Physics, invention, and engineering are not my field.
I have no field.
I lay floors. and can build you a shower or a steam room.
Inventions pop into my head on their own... and then I research them. I don't know any other way to put it.
I didn't know physics or math when I built the worlds first robotic dragonfly and I still didn't know physics or math, when I built the worlds first internally ballasted Archimedean screw propelled water craft with gyroscopic torque precession steering either. I didn't know those words.
I just see things in my head.
The amount of inventions I've given away or had stolen would seem to put my perceptual skills quite firmly back into the not-normal category.
  

       {shrugs}   

       Maybe I'm wrong. Check out the difference in date between my posting of Omnioculars and Josh Silvers TED talk about shipping twenty thousand pair of deformable lens glasses off to families in Africa.
Could be coincidence. I don't know. It's certainly possible.
  

         

       //it doesn't quite qualify you for Hogwarts. Sorry. I'm not mocking. I'm just trying to offer perspective.//   

       Dammit! I was sure my owl was going to show up any day now.
friggin muggles
  

       //But, to press on, may I reiterate the last question, viz. _why_ some unknown person or persons would want to suppress research into hypermelatoninism.//   

       You can reiterate, sure, but I told you already.
I see things accurately with my minds' eye without education.
I don't put up with 'anybodys' bullshit.
I have absolutely no respect for authority.
...and I think for myself. (not like I've had much choice)
  

       Imagine when that becomes the predominant attitude amongst the rest of the populace being subjugated into indentured servitude.
Should we thank our planet wrecking (and children wrecking) benefactors who steal our rights while giving themselves raises?
I don't think so. So exactly what does happen then... hmmm
If you were in power right now, or at any other time in the past, you'd want to slow that crap down right fast I'm thinking.
  

       That stalling time has come to an end, m'kay.   

       Time now for the psycho/sociopaths to have their masks ripped away and for people to see them for who they really are like I do.
It's not going to be a whole lot of fun for some folks.
  

       Other people will learn to convincingly fake playing nice and then us decent folk will just have to help their atavistic kids learn to cope for a few generations, and then that shit will be weeded out.   

       Sure hope that none of you guys are in that psycho/sociopath category.
{wince}
That might be something to think about working on now while there is still time for you to do so.
  

       //You can reiterate, sure, but I told you already.//   

       [2fries], I'm honestly trying to get to the bottom of this. I am probably being dumb, but I don't see the link between you being good at inventing, and research on hypermelatonism being "suppressed". So, even if it's just for me, can you explain why anyone would want to suppress hypermelatonism?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2017
  

       Is there a word for thinking that one is uniquely capable of something that turns out that everyone else does all the time anyway?
Ian Tindale, Jul 12 2017
  

       // I'm honestly trying to get to the bottom of this.//
To what end?
calum, Jul 12 2017
  

       Because it's interesting. I believe that [2fries] is mistaken, and of course [2fries] believes he is not mistaken. I believe that a rational, stepwise series of questions and answers should lead to an unambiguous outcome. So either:   

       (a) A rational stepwise approach will not lead to a conclusion, which will tell us something about the limits of reason in changing people's opinions.
(b) It will turn out that [2fries] is right, which will mean I have had my opinions changed, which is good or
(c) It will turn out that I'm right, which will mean [2fries] has had his opinions changed.
  

       So, either way it's interesting.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 12 2017
  

       The merits of this approach might be easier to assess if it were possible to point to any example, in say the past 20 years, of where someone had abandoned their deeply-held beliefs and worldview following a reasoned discussion on the internet.
hippo, Jul 12 2017
  

       What [hippo] said.
calum, Jul 12 2017
  

       Yes, there is that. But imagine how exciting it would be if it happened!
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 12 2017
  

       Well then let me introduce you to example A, being yours truly.   

       Over the course of private email discussions, I've changed my opinions about deeply-held beliefs in radical ways. Because of the nature of public social forums, that is less likely to happen, but I can tell you that my opinions about religion in general, and the importance of social grace, have changed substantially as a result of primarily my interaction with on this forum with several of the older-time members to whom I owe a debt of gratitude, and most of whom left this place when it started getting debby-downish. That is why I still hold some resentment to all those who prefer to stink up the site with uncivil behavior, because they wouldn't put up with it, and it eventually drove them away.   

       Despite my religiously-derived nickname I am for all intents and purposes an atheist and have been for several years as a direct result.
RayfordSteele, Jul 12 2017
  

       //I still didn't know physics or math, when I built the worlds first internally ballasted Archimedean screw propelled water craft with gyroscopic torque precession steering either//   

       I've got us having a conversation on precessional steering in Apr 2010 annos, so I assume there's an honorable mention for yours truly in the owner's manual, somewhere. I'm not sure I would categorize it as "stolen" - except in obvious jest - given the nature of this site.   

       And, of course the Sopwith Camel.   

       // I was sure my owl was going to show up any day now.//
"So where's my Owl ?" [marked-for-tagline]
FlyingToaster, Jul 12 2017
  

       Is it a good owl? There's a rating system for how good owls are, you know.
Ian Tindale, Jul 12 2017
  

       large parts of this thread give off a sense of being written by an AI.   

       I'm a bit late to the party, but I think you have to separate global warming skepticism, and global warming caused by humans skepticism, from global warming advocate agenda skepticism.   

       I don't want to hand the state (deep or otherwise) another means of control over the economy. And I'm highly skeptical that anything is propagandized with the urgency that it is purely for the (still growing) polar bear population.
theircompetitor, Jul 12 2017
  

       It's quite possible I could be made to change my mind. Nothing is set in stone, and hunches are not beliefs.
It is my 'belief' that the more advanced a species gets, the longer its gestation period, childhood, and life-span. The other aspect to an enlarged pineal gland is delayed puberty and fast healing because of the excess production of melatonin.
"If",(big if), I am right then this means that my case is not just an isolated incident but something that will happen across all of humanity.
Are you prepared as a society to have your children remain children into their twenties? To remain responsible for their choices past their age of consent? Think about it.
  

       From the reception I got, I would say we are definitely not ready at all. So... how to curb this trend and maintain that old status quo?   

       Why we'll just put more fluoride in a single serving of infant formula than double the recommended daily adult intake and in the water supply. We'll tell them it's good for their infants teeth.
Sure the kids will be sickly little cash cows but they'll go through puberty on time... maybe even a bit early, and the amount of cash that selling them over-the-counter supplements of secretions their bodies once produced naturally will be a nice bonus.
  

       If we keep drifting and expanding the discussion (interesting though that may be), we're not going to get anywhere. My suggestion was that we analyse one specific question and see where it goes.   

       So, may I reiterate the last question, viz. _why_ some unknown person or persons would want to suppress research into hypermelatoninism?   

       (And, as an aside, just how high _is_ your melatonin level?)
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 12 2017
  

       lack of personal growth?
theircompetitor, Jul 12 2017
  

       //point to any example, in say the past 20 years, of where someone had abandoned their deeply-held beliefs and worldview//

I used to think that most people were fundamentally sensible & decent & that the world could become a better place. But after seeing what passed for reasoned arguments on the internet I realised what a deluded fool I was. Does that count?
DrBob, Jul 12 2017
  

       //It is my 'belief' that the more advanced a species gets, the longer its gestation period, childhood, and life-span//   

       If I may raise a counterexample, sturgeon live to be longer than humans, and are a very old species in terms of evolution. They're also bottom-feeders, and, well, fish.   

       There's a fundamental flaw in your conspiracy thinking, 2 fries, (well, several, but here's just one), in that you assume that the conspirators knew from however long in the past that fluoride was going to be bad for pineal glands, and that pineal glands have some superfunction towards enhanced vision and creativity, when in reality brain research was barely in its infancy during the time in which fluoride treatment was being heavily promoted.
RayfordSteele, Jul 12 2017
  

       Not only that but, even today, I don't think there's anything to suggest that an overactive pineal gland is associated with greater creativity and more than, say, an overactive hypothalamus.   

       But, that is beside the point. [2fries] - why do you think someone would want to suppress research on hypermelatonism?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 12 2017
  

       // why do you think someone would want to suppress research on hypermelatonism?//   

       Good question. You should probably track down whomever had the wherewithal to be able to scrub those two pages of hits for the word from the net in twenty or thirty minutes flat. (My hat's off to that person btw, damn you're fast!), They certainly do know their stuff.   

       // If I may raise a counterexample, sturgeon live to be longer than humans, and are a very old species in terms of evolution. They're also bottom-feeders, and, well, fish. //   

       ...and cold blooded. Apples to oranges. Tortoises to Parrots.   

       //conspirators knew from however long in the past that fluoride was going to be bad for pineal glands, and that pineal glands have some superfunction towards enhanced vision and creativity, when in reality brain research was barely in its infancy during the time in which fluoride treatment was being heavily promoted.//   

       Yes fluoride was only discovered fairly recently, at least according to our knowledge, but let me ask you all this;
Did any of you know that their is any of our brain not contained within the blood/brain barrier? I didn't.
Did the term 'pineal gland' ever even once come up during the very public debunking of the fluoride conspiracy? I didn't hear it.
Did a single halfbaker here have the slightest notion that fluoride affected the brain at all before I informed you of the fact?
Were any of the dentists in the crowd here tonight taught that their hygienists are opening micro wounds at the gum-line and introducing a cumulative neuro-toxin directly into the blood stream of their patients nice and close to the brain so it won't get all dilutey?
  

       No?   

       huh... 'magine that. Medical practitioners not taught about the well documented effects of the substances they administer.
I for one find that to be very Very scary shit. Are our medical professionals getting schooled by us high school dropouts often then?
  

       As for past conspirators having knowledge of the brain, the ancient Egyptions had extensive knowledge of the mind, the pineal gland, and just what a human with a fully functioning one can and can not do. Fascinating stuff, but really hard to pull the science from the pseudo.
The Eye Of Horus is a representation of a bi-lateral cross section of the human brain with the pineal gland as its pupil, they knew very well that it was on this side of the blood brain barrier and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that they learned of many substances which could collect there and cause it's premature calcification.
Fluoride is just one of them... and an extremely handy to obtain industrial waste product that fit the bill here in our western society.
Nice that it makes the human mind more open to suggestibility too. Neat trick. Good thing Hitlers' cronies worked that one out for us eh?
  

       ...   

       Alrighty then, back to my original question;
Are we as a species, (forget society, they are just so dang transitory aren't they?), but as a species, are we remotely prepared for our children to remain prepubescent past our current ages of consent? Because to advance as a species that is what is going to be required, a sacrifice of one generation for the next to even be able to attempt to make the leap. Which makes me wonder just how many generations so far haven't had the cajones to stop chucking kids like me into the volcano.
Don't even try telling me there's no volcano and that we don't get chucked into it... 'cause I kinda like just finished clawing my way out of the bitch not all that long ago.
See, it's right over there where I met you guys.
  

       You think this theory is whacked, alright here's one for you all to sink your teeth into then;
I'd bet my left nut that Leonardo Davinci went through delayed puberty too and that that Mona Lisa is a self portrait of him in drag because it was the only way he could function in his society until he went through that change of life or they would have burned his ass as a witch.
  

       I think that guys like me have been getting thrown to the wolves for a while now.
It really is a very efficient filter, but now it's a numbers game, and as I've stated in the past, probability and I have issues... or I wouldn't still be here.
  

       Does gravity have the same effect on you as it does everyone else?
Ian Tindale, Jul 12 2017
  

       //Good question.// OK, so we're not making progress on the "who", the "what type of person", or the "why". But we might still get to the bottom of this. Do you have any idea _how_ someone is suppressing research into hypermelatonism? Yes, a Google-bait page was up for some unknown length of time and then disappeared, but that's not going to suppress research very effectively. And, as per the links, there's plenty of research on both melatonin and on low/high levels thereof, and their effects, so it doesn't look like publication is being suppressed.   

       So, _how_ is the suppression happening?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       //Does gravity have the same effect on you as it does everyone else?//   

       So far. Hey does this bum make my ego look big?   

       //Yes, a Google-bait page was up for some unknown length of time and then disappeared, but that's not going to suppress research very effectively. And, as per the links, there's plenty of research on both melatonin and on low/high levels thereof, and their effects, so it doesn't look like publication is being suppressed.//   

       Well I suppose it was always known that the cat would get out of the bag eventually.
All of those links for Hypermelatoninism other than "Principals and Practices of Endocrinology and Metabolism" have been added since the "Bait" pages were removed. Most of the hits for that word now are me on various forums asking where the hell this term which my doctors needed to know when I was a kid went to.
If I hadn't stumbled across it, that single hit I found would have been scrubbed too.
  

       Ok. I've answered everybody's questions to the best of my ability. Can anyone here answer mine? Especially the one about dentists not being taught about fluoride or being able to give their patients informed consent that its effect is to turn their pineal glands turned to stone for them.   

       //All of those links for Hypermelatoninism other than "Principals and Practices of Endocrinology and Metabolism" have been added since the "Bait" pages were removed.//   

       [2fries], you may have misunderstood the links. Of those 22,483 publications (actually it's now 22,494 - papers get published all the time on melatonin), some go back to 1958, and there is a fairly even spread of publications in the years since then. So I'm afraid you're mistaken. It's worth noting that that PubMed search result covers multiple pages (there's a "next" button); the first page will be the most recent publications, so you need to look at subsequent pages to see older publications.   

       It's also worth noting that "hypermelatoninism" isn't a particularly universally accepted medical terminology. If you're interested in finding out more about it, you need to include terms such "elevated melatonin" etc in your searches. You may also want to search for "pituitary hyperplasia", which gives a fair number of hits. It's possible that the literature is out there, but you've just not understood the search terms to use.   

       // Can anyone here answer mine? Especially the one about dentists// <raises hand> Sir! Sir! I can! When my daughter went to the dentist (many years ago, when I went with her), the dentist said that if we used a fluoridated toothpaste, then she should (a) use only a pea-sized blob and (b) not take any other fluoridated products, because excess fluoride was potentially bad. Does that count? Is it possible that you just don't have a very good dentist?   

       //Does gravity have the same effect on you as it does everyone else?// It must do; how else would he keep his feet on the water?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       //Are we as a species, (forget society, they are just so dang transitory aren't they?), but as a species, are we remotely prepared for our children to remain prepubescent past our current ages of consent? //   

       not sure about the physically prepubescent part, but surely you've noticed that the generations recently released into the wild already behave as children past the age of consent?
theircompetitor, Jul 13 2017
  

       duty_calls.png
calum, Jul 13 2017
  

       Sorry to interrupt this little slap fest, but DAANG Max! I just read your post referring to your company and Googled the name to see what your company does. Friggen DNA research towards curing cancer?   

       That's incredibly impressive. My cousin does the whole creating and patenting vaccines (for the animal husbandry industry) and has a very successful company that sells the stuff. I once said "So you're basically Jonas Salk for cows." and he said "Well, yea, I guess."   

       I know that's probably like hearing that somebody drives race cars and saying "I know somebody who races snowmobiles, maybe you two can hang out." but maybe I could send him to your website to evaluate what you're doing from a business standpoint.   

       Theoretically, this whip smart person who makes an actual handsome living off of his biomedical research could evaluate your research company for potential investors no? I also live in Silicon Valley which is the world's center for high tech venture capital. Then I could sit back and watch all of you get fabulously wealthy and get a thank you card or something.   

       Just a thought.   

       Ok, back to the slapfest.
doctorremulac3, Jul 13 2017
  

       Heya, [Doc]. It's only impressive if it works - otherwise it's just very expensive occupational therapy for me. But thanks. Yes, feel free to pass on the website details, but I'm not sure it'll do much good - there's not much detail on it, because I still haven't filed any patents.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       Ok, I can send him the link but he'll probably ask me a whole bunch of questions I can't answer, like: "Ok, what do you want me to do?"   

       On the other hand maybe you'll become science buddies or something. I don't know, haven't really thought this out.
doctorremulac3, Jul 13 2017
  

       Always happy to chat - the company email goes to me personally. Or he may feel that our respective disciplines are too far apart - either way is fine by me.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       Cool. Even if you only share a couple of laughs about his dumb ex-rockstar cousin it might be fun.
doctorremulac3, Jul 13 2017
  

       Hey, you may like to know that most middle-aged scientists actually dream of being ex-rockstars.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       And I thought I'd be a scientist as a kid. Then I reached puberty and did the math on who gets more chicks.   

       The funny part is, that's not a joke.   

       Actual conversation:   

       Friend of mine: "Dude, if you really want to get the chicks you've gotta be a football star or a rock star."   

       Me: "Well, we're too skinny to be football stars so let's learn how to play guitar."   

       That was, more or less, an actual conversation I had in my early teens. Ahhh, memories. God how I hate them. LOL.
doctorremulac3, Jul 13 2017
  

       Well, my original plan was to be a marine biologist, based on the fact that Jaques Cousteau spent most of his time in warm water with women in bikinis. I made a course-correction when I discovered that most marine biologists end up counting barnacles on North Sea oil rigs.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2017
  

       If I hadn't tripped across electronics as a kid, and also realising I wouldn't make a living as an artist, I'm fairly sure that by now I'd be a paleoentomologist.
Ian Tindale, Jul 14 2017
  

       A close high school friend formed DeeLite. I'm connected to him on Facebook. Does that count?
theircompetitor, Jul 14 2017
  

       //biologists end up counting barnacles on North Sea oil rigs//   

       Heh, they're so dumb.. all that training to do a bit of dumb counting and then probably dumb data entry. I'm glad I'm not doing that.... (resumes counting individual signaling events in cells and manually plugging the data into excel because it's just outside being automatable).
bs0u0155, Jul 14 2017
  

       //Well, my original plan was to be a marine biologist//   

       MOST kids plan on being a marine biologist at some point. The fun part is to ask them what a marine biologist does. It's important to smash dreams before they get a chance to really take hold so they grow into malliable adult citizens who know their place.   

       That being said, a civilization built on a workforce of 70 to 80 percent marine biologists might be a pretty interesting place to live. I'm guessing we'd eat a lot of seafood.
doctorremulac3, Jul 14 2017
  

       and thus global warming and Waterworld, <param pam/>
theircompetitor, Jul 14 2017
  

       But we'd have a real handle on barnacle numbers.   

       Anyway, I guess I've run out of unanswerable questions for [2fries] and, as others correctly predicted, we don't seem to have made much progress. But, to summarize, [2fries]:   

       (1) You have the skills of Nikola Tesla
(2) You believe these are due to hypermelatoninism
(3) You believe that the world is conspiring to suppress research into hypermelatoninism, notwithstanding over 20,000 publications on melatonin and its variation and effects
(4) You believe that this is in order to prevent another Tesla (or Edison, Berners-Lee, etc) from arising and disrupting the world order that the Powers that Be are happy with.
(5) You have not, in fact, had your melatonin levels tested
(6) You believe that people are tracking your internet behaviour, and deleting web pages after you look at them
(7) Possibly unrelated to the above, you have had a close encounter with Sasquatches, but unfortunately did not see them.
  

       I'm not saying you're batshit crazy, [2fries].   

       But how would batshit crazy differ?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 14 2017
  

       Well,
1) That's like saying that the Wright brothers were good astronaughts.
2) I believe I see physics with my minds eye.
3) Yep, tried to.
4) I believe it is to keep us at this level of evolution.
5)No.
6) No
7) Definitely unrelated correct.
  

       Batshit crazy would be wrong.   

       Let me propose a hypothesis:   

       The sasquatches are behind it all. They know that you saw them, and so are trying to prevent their secret from getting out. Only people with unsuppressed pineal glands can visualize their true identities, like that movie with the weird alien glasses (They Live I think). That's why the halfbakery crashed last night. The sasquatches were trying to stop this thread! OMG!
RayfordSteele, Jul 14 2017
  

       They prefer [bigger footed people]
theircompetitor, Jul 14 2017
  

       Back to the marine biologist thing for a second, I'm curious how many people out there would, if given the same salary they make now, become marine biologists if the offer was given.   

       I'd grab my trout probe and have my Gordon's Fisherman rain slicker on before the ink dried on the contract. I'm guessing that same 80% of the population that innocently proclaimed their dream of becoming a marine biologist in their youth would do the same.   

       In other words, most of us are frustrated marine biologists.
doctorremulac3, Jul 14 2017
  

       Actually, even if I was twice what I'm paid now, I don't think I'd switch to marine biology, for two reasons:   

       (a) I currently pay myself zero, so a 100% pay rise is only marginally attractive.   

       (b) I tried scuba once. In the water, I have about the same grace and elegance as a walrus does on land.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 14 2017
  

       i have a homeschooled friend who became a marine biologist for awhile. Then a professor. Then he moved to Montana, then Wisconsin for some reason or other. Other than writing a weird podcast / book series on a fantasy world called 'Metamor, he's otherwise a relatively normal guy. Mostly...
RayfordSteele, Jul 14 2017
  

       //Maybe I'm wrong. Check out the difference in date between my posting of Omnioculars and Josh Silvers TED talk about shipping twenty thousand pair of deformable lens glasses off to families in Africa. Could be coincidence. I don't know. It's certainly possible.//   

       Maybe like you I saw one of the original tech segments about Dr. Joshua Silvers helping the 3rd world back in 2003. I remember posting a similar idea using camera auto-focus gubbins to be the last pair of glasses you'd need.   

       //squashing Tesla and suppressing his work.//   

       The first time I heard accounts of Tesla's wireless power experiments (and having studied electricity for 4 years) I thought it was an April fools joke. It's obvious to me that Tesla can be a go-to guy when you want to talk about suppressed technology, much like you could say Newton's transmutation of lead into gold was suppressed. Both scientists had their nuttier sides, but in Tesla's case he was probably going for something that none of the other electricity companies were looking and very high risk.   

       //huh... 'magine that. Medical practitioners not taught about the well documented effects of the substances they administer. I for one find that to be very Very scary shit. Are our medical professionals getting schooled by us high school dropouts often then?//   

       There is a huge prescribed drug problem in the US. Opiates are being prescribed for headaches. There is no money in fluoride. Pushing artificial heroin to people with health insurance is where the money's at. And the FDA approved it.   

       I'm not saying the details of toothpaste aren't scary, but millions of people being prescribed heroin ... for headaches ... in this day and age.   

       Approaches guy on street corner. "I'm really messed up man. I see more than I should and need to close the visions down. Need something really strong. You got any ?" "Not right now, but I heard of a guy who still has a stash of Macleans Fresh Mint with extra fluoride."
bigsleep, Jul 14 2017
  

       //I tried scuba once. In the water, I have about the same grace and elegance as a walrus does on land//   

       Oh I so love scuba. One of the only things I do I actually bothered to get certified for.
It's like flying effortlessly.
  

       Did you know that there are sand-falls underwater the way that there are water-falls on land? Completely awesome...   

       //I remember posting a similar idea using camera auto-focus gubbins to be the last pair of glasses you'd need.//   

       Sweet. I wasn't saying I got ripped off. I very much wanted that idea to be created by whomever could pull it off. Sure as shit wasn't me at the time.   

       // The first time I heard accounts of Tesla's wireless power experiments (and having studied electricity for 4 years) I thought it was an April fools joke. //   

       Why?
If it possible to power a crystal radio without any electrical power source besides the radio wave itself, then it is possible to amplify this incoming wave to produce electricity wirelessly. It's not free energy, but it is wireless transmission of electricity, and our vehicles could literally power themselves on am radio by storing energy when not in use.
  

       Simples.   

       //There is no money in fluoride. Pushing artificial heroin to people with health insurance is where the money's at. And the FDA approved it.//   

       Why is fluoride in the baby formula then?
Extra profits? Our infants' oral health?
Is it in the water because it generates revenue?
Are people encouraged to use fluoride free products because their consent is informed?
  

       Their dentists' consent itself is not informed. So... just how much are our professionals not informed due to profit based results?
How much of that "do no harm" clause has been mitigated through proprietary ignorance?
  

       It becomes a very valid question when capitalism runs rampant and profits dictate which research is disseminated, not from a scientific standpoint, (people don't tend to downplay their own work), but from an entirely capitalist standpoint.   

       //I'm not saying the details of toothpaste aren't scary...//   

       To hell with toothpaste. I'm talking about the fluoride being in our water and pablum. Fifteen minute gum-line bleeding fluoride soaks every three months at the hygienist.
What part of "Cumulative Neurotoxin" is anybody not getting?
  

       We've now got a percentage of children under the age of two with calcified pineal glands, where from what I can determine from autopsy reports there were no cases under the age of nineteen before the 50's.   

       So, like I asked earlier, did anyone hear the phrase pineal gland mentioned in conjunction with fluoride during the highly publicised debunking? Or are you only hearing about it from me?
Is your consent informed?
  

       //It's not free energy, but it is wireless transmission of electricity, and our vehicles could literally power themselves on am radio by storing energy when not in use.//   

       All you say is true apart from the levels of energy required. Essentially to deliver transport levels of electricity any smaller devices e.g. metal fillings or loops like watchbands would melt instantly. There is also the question whether overhead powerlines and mobile phone towers already kick out too much electromagnetic radiation. The only thing that's practical is near field wireless charging with modest power levels.   

       //Why is fluoride in the baby formula then?//   

       At a guess, its because baby bottles are historically poorly disinfected.   

       Other than that its just follow the money. Is global climate change science being suppressed ? Nope. Its just being ignored by those taking back-handers from lobbyists.
bigsleep, Jul 17 2017
  

       //Why is fluoride in the baby formula then?//   

       [2fries], I think I answered this one before. Fluoride is not ADDED to baby formula; it is naturally present in many of the ingredients used in baby formula (particularly soy which, apparently, is often an ingredient). If you use fluoridated water to reconstitute powdered formula, then of course that will add fluoride as well.   

       So, quit acting as if baby food companies are sneakily adding fluoride to baby formula in some sort of dark conspiracy. There is a lot of debate as to whether they should be _removing_ naturally-occurring fluoride from their ingredients, but that's not quite the same thing now, is it?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 17 2017
  

       That's an excellent point. There is no blame for the manufacturers or any people kept intentionally ignorant of what they are doing. I think they call it plausible deniability right? How can a dentist be held culpable for unknowingly helping to cause the asymptomatic endocrine system collapse of the children they honestly think they are helping?
I question why it is in anything at all.
When a substance is forced on a population for a specific reason, and then it turns out that that substance actually has the opposite effect when overdosed on, yet there is no way to regulate your intake because it is in everything, but nobody seems to make a cent from it being there...
...well then that's a con folks. A deliberate sleight-of-hand snake-oil salesman con if'n there ever was one.
  

       I dunno man. This play has more red-flags on it than players on the field.   

       -highly publicised debunking while being forced into the water supply
-no mention of the pineal gland
-our general MD's not taught that any of the brain is outside of the blood/brain barrier while in med school (yes I've asked several now)
children going through precocious puberty yet nobody can pin down why
-every over-the-counter sleep-aid/ weight-loss/ anti-anxiety yadda yadda advertisement selling melatonin, serotonin, tryptophan
-dentists not taught the effects of fluoride
-hypermalatoninism definitions disappearing
  

       -even just public reaction to the topic having been conditioned to the point of not allowing reasoned discussion without having to withstand... all of the shit I've been withstanding to bring it to public attention because yes, I'm just that fucking stubborn.   

       Like I said, if I am batshit crazy, (and I'm like summa cum laude valedictorian of actual Batshit Crazy Survival Studies with a minor in Keepin It Together 101), then I would be wrong, but I'm not.   

       That shit is evil.   

       (Evil Recognition and Avoidance is sort of a prerequisite course I had to take before those other one's I aced)   

       It's just been one of them lives, y'know?   

       Is this thread longer than non requited f**king whatever it was ?   

       answers on a postcard to bakes person. +1
po, Jul 17 2017
  

       remind me to read tomorrow
po, Jul 17 2017
  

       //I question why it is in anything at all.// [2fries], fluorine is what is called a chemical element. Fluoride is the ionised form of fluorine. It exists, quite widely. Crops grown in soil (as a surprising number of them are) take up fluorine. I feel that is something you should know.   

       You seem to believe that fluorine is behind your calcified pineal gland and hypermelatonism, despite the fact that you have (a) never had your pineal gland imaged or scanned in any way and (b) have never had your melatonin levels measured.   

       You also seem to believe that the government (in fact, presumably, all world governments in a truly remarkable consensus) are out to poison their citizens. The truth is much more mundane. There is not some international cabal of men with white cats planning to achieve world domination by means of fluoride. It's not even possible the phrase the possibility in a non-comical way.   

       The truth is that a little fluoride is probably good for you (and your teeth), whilst too much is probably bad for you. All of the information I could find on fluoride agrees with that.   

       A quick check suggests that the water supply where you live is not, in fact, fluoridated - but I can't be sure.   

       [2fries], everybody has some abilities, and everybody has to overcome some adversity in life. The trick is to use the former, and not obsess about the latter. Otherwise the only point of your life becomes the adversities.   

       And, for the record, I never called you batshit crazy. I just asked how batshit crazy would differ.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 17 2017
  

       // Other than that its just follow the money. Is global climate change science being suppressed ? Nope. Its just being ignored by those taking back-handers from lobbyists.//   

       while noting that research grants flow to those that espouse it, and subsidies are designed for fuel schemes that otherwise would not be sustainable. Follow the money indeed.
theircompetitor, Jul 17 2017
  

       //A quick check suggests that the water supply where you live is not, in fact, fluoridated - but I can't be sure.//
You're right. It's not. We fought to not have it added just on spec without needing a reason not to mess with the un-fluoridated water we've evolved to drink.
  

       //[2fries], everybody has some abilities, and everybody has to overcome some adversity in life. The trick is to use the former, and not obsess about the latter. Otherwise the only point of your life becomes the adversities.//   

       Yep. I couldn't agree with you more.
Problem is, some abilities are supressed and some adversity is engineered.
  

       //There is not some international cabal of men with white cats planning to achieve world domination//   

       Now why the hell would they want white cats in their castles in the sky?
The hair would get just everywhere.
Gross.
  

       //some abilities are supressed and some adversity is engineered//   

       These are also traits of an autistic person coming to terms with a non autistic world. If you imagine a world where people can only possibly invent new stuff 0.00001% of the time because they are completely socially bound, but as a self-made intellect you recreate 90% of the stuff that exists, get to know about another 5% and then invent 4% before the age of 16 then you are probably autistic. More a very intense inward intellect rather than a sharing one.
bigsleep, Jul 17 2017
  

       luckily there are no conspiracy theories associated with autism.
theircompetitor, Jul 17 2017
  

       //while noting that research grants flow to those that espouse it, and subsidies are designed for fuel schemes that otherwise would not be sustainable. Follow the money indeed//   

       The problem with that line of thought is that nearly every bit of research out there operates in a similar way, and despite inefficiencies, we do occasionally come up with extraordinary things. Like the computer-based ethereal forum in which we now speak, as an example. Dissing the results of research because the researchers are on the dole is a terribly weak argument. Besides, if money were the chief and only aim of a research scientist in his field of study, he'd probably jump ship off to the oil industry, where it can actually be made.
RayfordSteele, Jul 17 2017
  

       //Is this thread longer than non requited f**king whatever it was ?// Nope; not even close.
FlyingToaster, Jul 17 2017
  

       Oddly, the best-qualified person I know personally who *does* believe in anthropogenic global warming is actually working for an oil company.   

       The world is complicated.
pertinax, Jul 17 2017
  

       //luckily there are no conspiracy theories associated with autism.//   

       {laughs out loud, unabbreviated}   

       As it happens, one of the impendices* of my unfinished book goes by the title "things that look like conspiracies, but aren't".   

       *Instead of hanging on to the main text, like an appendix, an impendix hangs over it, in a vaguely threatening way.
pertinax, Jul 17 2017
  

       //*does* believe in anthropogenic global warming is actually working for an oil company.//   

       It becomes clear when you employ long term thinking. Oil,gas and coal extracting companies are climate warriors too. They simply pick a different baseline, and rage against an older injustice: 60 million years of catastrophic arborogenic global climate change during the carboniferous period. Driven by an insane lust for carbon, the vast tree plague spread over every continent spewing wildly reactive oxygen without a single thought. Upon death, they simply lay where they fell. A self monument of ill-gotten gains, imprisoned within indestructible polymers choking a biosphere unable to cope. Eventually, geology inhumed these grotesque monuments, crushing them to reveal the black hearts within. The carbon longs to be free, its heartbreakingly beautiful that humanity strives daily, on a massive scale to offer help. It's not just the mining, don't forget those deep in the strongholds of resurgent tree empires in Brazil, Equador and Indonesia toiling in battle against the lignified bastards.   

       Obviously, that's just whimsy. Personally I think we need to go back further. Stromatolites have been looking smug since they kicked off the great oxygenation event. It's all very well forging a technocratic empire with your photo- electrical chemical wizzardry, but talk about climate change... I remember carefree summers when iron lay about in great unoxidized lumps. Now even a simple Toyota has to smear itself with protective goop.
bs0u0155, Jul 18 2017
  

       Wow - when did Toyota start doing that?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 18 2017
  

       They use paint, over the top of galvanization. Which if you ask me, simply shows a lack of confidence in the paint. You won't find established European manufacturers displaying such paranoia.
bs0u0155, Jul 18 2017
  

       [Ray] I agree, except that anti climate change arguments are attacked as being paid by industry, I literally was responding to [bigsleep]'s comments to wit, no?   

       Which is not to say that objective truth does not exist, presuming we're not all a simulation. It does. But if the population of polar bears (which is estimated to exceed the numbers during the debut of An Inconvenient Truth) proves anything, it proves that we do not actually know the full consequences of change. Just as we don't know the full consequences of being able to wear t-shirts in December.   

       But we do know that a conscientiously recycling, Tesla and Volt driving family with the 2 children and a dog in Silicon Valley still has a larger carbon footprint than a village in Bangladesh -- and that's just by counting the UPS traffic with Amazon packages to their house, we didn't even get to the AC yet.   

       Certainly Climate Change is less certain than Social Security running out of money unless something is done. Or Medicare. Or Medicaid.   

       If you ever passed anything meaningful -- and I stress meaningful -- to address emissions that government would fare no better than Obama's Congress did after Obamacare -- in fact likely much much worse. You could not possibly justify to voters the fall in the standard of living that would have to occur. And all those that wring their hands on the subject, they have no idea what they're actually asking people to do to truly change the trajectory.   

       So....   

       The year, the month, the day, the minute, the second solar or fusion or whatever is feasible, the oil industry will disappear like Amazon's competitors are disappearing. That's presuming Krakatoa, or god-forbid Yellowstone or Kim Jung Un doesn't solve the problem for us and have us burning fossil fuel to warm up.   

       Until then, relax, read something about a world fair from 100 years ago, see how close they got
theircompetitor, Jul 18 2017
  

       //These are also traits of an autistic person coming to terms with a non autistic world. If you imagine a world where people can only possibly invent new stuff 0.00001% of the time because they are completely socially bound, but as a self-made intellect you recreate 90% of the stuff that exists, get to know about another 5% and then invent 4% before the age of 16 then you are probably autistic. More a very intense inward intellect rather than a sharing one.//   

       Are we still talking about Tesla?...because he intentionally tried to give away the rights to his patents.
He knew bloody well that none of us need to suffer simply to exist. We don't "need" money. That's the main reason he had to be done away with, he wouldn't play well with the big boys so they squashed him.
  

       Those who can't create seek to regulate.   

       Ooh quick somebody write that down... I got a chill.   

       // If you ever passed anything meaningful -- and I stress meaningful -- You could not possibly justify to voters the fall in the standard of living that would have to occur. //   

       I'm not so sure. I see us heading towards much less centralization where city-states are not beholden to a head-office that really isn't needed for that much at all when it comes right down to the day-to-day lives of it's people if municipal, provincial, and federal referendums become binding.
Has that ever been tried as a system of government on any large scale before, an actual non representational democracy?
The main impact would be to the owners or the current infrastructure namely gas and oil companies.
  

       I say good riddance. The sooner begun the sooner done.   

       //Those who can't create seek to regulate// which apparently is bad except for fluoride levels? :)   

       //We don't "need" money//   

       You need to watch yourself some Mamet. You need money. That's why they call it money.   

       What's been incredibly interesting with the rise of cryptocurrencies, is the reinvention of the notion that you don't need a government to have money, and in fact, you could have a mechanism that defeats governmental efforts dig its way out of trouble by inflation at your expense. That's kind of amazing.
theircompetitor, Jul 18 2017
  

       // and in fact, you could have a mechanism that defeats governmental efforts dig its way out of trouble by inflation at your expense. That's kind of amazing.//   

       Isn't that what we've got now? Banks only needing to hold in trust ten percent of what's lent out.
When that comes back with interest and is again lent out... is that not from whence the inflation in question stems?
...and was this system not allowed by the governing body which now claims its hands are tied and yet whose campaigns were funded by those profiting from the inflation?
  

       If it must be money... then I demand to see transparency from those who demand my money. They create suffering because they don't know how to create anything else so the only way to elevate themselves in their own sociopathic little ways is to degrade those who can.   

       We the people are pretty much done with that shit.   

       I think it's going to end in tears... I was amazed to find out that people are going crazy about mining bitcoins... buying up handfuls of the most powerful graphics cards and getting them to solve meaningless mathematical problems in order to receive newly "printed" bitcoins.
Ling, Jul 18 2017
  

       wow, no, that's not where inflation comes from.   

       without the need to count the money we'd have never invented the Assyrian tablets to count it. I'm not exactly sure (in fact, I'm completely unsure) as to what Utopia you're hunting for, but you'd have a tall order to improve upon the current world order.   

       It's a mess, of course, but I can't imagine a better time to be alive than perhaps that time in the 50 to 100 years out where we have space colonies and have finally beaten biological death. But it certainly beats anything in the past.   

       [Ling] it's bubbly to be sure, but blockchain is a very, very very valuable technology. This is not tulips.
theircompetitor, Jul 18 2017
  

       [tc], I don't think you have the slightest idea how much a small degree of climate change will hurt.   

       Your polar bear statistic, if true, is a red herring. Blaming the existence of the field of study on your favorite Democrat is irrelevant. Talk to the evidence. See link.   

       Picture a relatively-well-oiled machine that we have at the moment, growing food, taking advantage of optimized locations / regions for growing optimized foodstuffs, distributing it around, feeding billions of people.   

       Picture much of that being disrupted by lack of rain, too much rain, too much heat, too short of a growing season, monstrous storms, etc. Picture any end-time apocalyptic run-on-grocery scenario you would like at that point. Probably gradually evolving from mild inconvenience to nightmare over one generation or less.   

       Picture most of the semi-inhabitable bits of Florida underwater.   

       Picture the global economy when the basics become luxuries again. Social security and medicaid are a mere pittance when it comes to potential climate change effects.   

       Picture most of Africa fleeing for the higher and cooler latitudes. Picture international water rights becoming wars for survival.   

       And yes, you're quite right. We haven't done nearly enough when it comes to actually tackling the problem, because we're frankly all too comfortable with our eyes closed to it, because our entire world economy doesn't like that level of change. But it is coming anyway.   

       It is the nature of everyone to underestimate the complexity and scope of fields outside of their own interest, in the same way that we think of far off countries much less than our own. You spend a lot of time studying computer science and money and moving in the circles of people who do much of the same, and imbibe their collective, rather libertarian-leaning, culture. Not a lot of time studying the details of climate science I suspect. I study mechanical engineering problems, and tend to minimize and discredit software issues and electronics as being 'de minimus' in that given enough electronic doohickeys and programming it should do basically what I want it to. Max studies biological stuff, and doesn't care that natural frequencies and intake valve swirl patterns are frequent concerns in automotive engineering and take significant time and talent to solve and optimize. He just wants his car to go like all of the others do. And 2 fries just wants to take his unfortunate run-ins with authority out on any type of authority, regardless of whether that authority is deserved and justified or not.
RayfordSteele, Jul 18 2017
  

       //wow, no, that's not where inflation comes from.   

       without the need to count the money we'd have never invented the Assyrian tablets to count it. I'm not exactly sure (in fact, I'm completely unsure) as to what Utopia you're hunting for, but you'd have a tall order to improve upon the current world order.//   

       Sure it is. There are other factors that can fluctuate but if the amount of money in circulation never exceeds the amount of gold held in trust then inflation can only increase as the rate of gold itself increases.
When the money-lenders get the reins everything goes to hell in a hand-basket real quick.
  

       The utopia I'm hunting for is one where caste doesn't exist any more and war is no longer the only way to stimulate the economy.
I can't see that happening without us killing inflation first.
  

       // [Ling] it's bubbly to be sure, but blockchain is a very, very very valuable technology. This is not tulips.//   

       <Read some more>   

       Ah, I see. The bitcoin mining explanation, that I had previously read, didn't mention about the purpose, which appears to be time stamping groups of transactions. The explanation given, by bitcoin, was it was a way of controlling inflation, and they would vary the difficulty of the computation to control the issue of newly printed bitcoins. Maybe I skimmed the part about blockchains...
Ling, Jul 18 2017
  

       //It is the nature of everyone to ...// [rayfo], will you stop being so damned sensible, reasonable and correct? This is meant to be a ranty page.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 18 2017
  

       Its my mission to offend everyone's insensibilities.   

       One problem with tying money to gold is simply one of population growth. More people, more money needed.
RayfordSteele, Jul 19 2017
  

       [Ray] I have the following problems with that picture:   

       1. Apocalyptic predictions are on their face, absurd -- the planet is certainly going to be fine, regardless. 2. The well-oiled machine that's feeding the better part of 9Billion people could not exist without the energy economy. 3. As I mnimize weather, you minimize the fact that in 20 years, or certain 100, our biggest problem could be Grey Goo. Or it might be the solution to everything. 4. You're also discounting modernization in general. Not hard to imagine the entire car industry going electric now, right? And with offerings like Uber and self driving cars, not hard to imagine a crash in the number of individual vehicles. There are 250Million cars in the US, but less than a million school buses. How does wide spread adoption of this tech worldwide affect the emission curve. 5. You're ignoring the insignificance of human existence. Putting aside events like Yellowstone, we know of at least Santorini and Krakatoa, right? We know Pinutubo lowered temperatures. It is entirely possible that within the next couple of hundred years such an event occurs. 6. And lastly, unless you are truly talking a Venus effect, I refuse to believe that actually freeing up vast chunks of land is a net negative for humanity. If for every few feet of Florida under water you made a chunk of Canada more livable, who cares, on a scale of human existence.   

       My point is not that it is impossible -- or even most likely -- that we have a problem on our hands. Nor should we bury our hands in the sand.   

       Nonwithstanding Three Mile Island, Fukujima and even Chernobyl, we could eliminate all power plant emissions in one generation using a combination of hydro and nuclear.   

       Except that the same industry that is preaching climate change is making it impossible to even grow hydro, much less nuclear.   

       I read most propaganda on the subject as seeking to derive new tax revenue -- which will be used primarily to continue to y spend money on things we cannot afford and let people who refuse much simpler calculations than those you refer to continue their uninterrupted existence.   

         

       No, you don't automatically need more money if you have population growth so long as you have deflation. Or put another way, as the population drives more productivity, the relative purchasing power of a unit of currency can actually increase. In a world were gold would be the only currency, gold can be found, but cannot be "made" -- and that's the effect that blockchain seeks to imitate.   

       Without a doubt, the flexibility to manipulate money was invented by kings putting less gold into coins long before any central banks were invented. Central banks do gain some ability to create counter-cyclical effects and thus help in times of crisis, though sooner or later, but they pay a heavy price for that effect. My intuition is that though governments will seek to regulate blockchain, they can no more stop it than the music industry could stop online music.
theircompetitor, Jul 19 2017
  

       (theircompetitor) //Nonwithstanding Three Mile Island, Fukujima and even Chernobyl, we could eliminate all power plant emissions in one generation using a combination of hydro and nuclear.//   

       A few numbers to ponder. See links: "Deaths due to coal mining in the Unites States alone" and "Deaths worldwide from nuclear accidents including nuclear power plants, radiotherapy incidents and nuclear submarine disasters." Without Chernobyl, there's not much in the way of nuclear death statistics to keep this technology down, and this primitive and dangerous old design isn't used any more. I wouldn't trust the first airplane to be a safe mode of transportation either.   

       Problem is, though nuclear power plants don't emit greenhouse gases they also don't emit money to feed the insatiable appetite of the one world elitists so... nothing to see here folks.   

       Additionally, the anti nuclear movement will never admit they were wrong all these decades even though the smart ones know it. There are a few environmentalists who genuinely care for the planet enough to logically weigh risk/reward ratios of various power generation systems that have come over to the pro nuclear side but they don't seem to get heard from much. I believe the anti nuke movement is running on pure inertia at this point.
doctorremulac3, Jul 19 2017
  

       Let me throw a couple more thoughts out there:   

       Picture a southern US where almost no one goes outside anymore because its too damn hot, and as a result the US military cannot find enough shapely people to fill its ranks (that's already happening).   

       I'm probably not talking Venus. I'm just talking about the economics of getting from today to 'oh well, Canada's nice.'   

       Except that it really isn't. Canada doesn't have topsoil worth a hill of corn, mostly as a result of glaciers that gave it to us.
RayfordSteele, Jul 19 2017
  

       So, global warming = no more glaciers. Problem solved.   

       Incidentally, [doc], wind and solar both cause more deaths per kWh of electricity generated than either fossil fuels or (by a long way) nuclear. The high rate is due to the fact that a vast amount of construction has to take place to generate just a trickle of green energy.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 19 2017
  

       //wind and solar both cause more deaths per kWh of electricity generated than either fossil fuels//   

       To be fair, that's largely a statistical anomaly caused by the Solar installations in west Macclesfield generating negative values.
bs0u0155, Jul 19 2017
  

       But that would result in negative deaths per kWh, meaning that the average of the rest of the world must be higher.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 19 2017
  

       //wind and solar both cause more deaths per kWh of electricity generated than either fossil fuels or (by a long way) nuclear//   

       But like you've said, it's a religion at this point and numbers are meaningless to the pious.
doctorremulac3, Jul 19 2017
  

       Every religion needs martyrs.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 19 2017
  

       Not Pastafarianism.
They need only the touch of His Noodly Appendage.
  

       Ramen.   

       I suppose the obvious counterpoint there is that, if fossil fuel use leads to a major civilisational breakdown (which is not a certainty, but is a finite probability), then that would rather skew the numbers in the other direction. At this point, the numbers of expected deaths you work with depend on what value you ascribe to that probability, at which point the hand-waving becomes so vigorous as to offer a useful energy source in its own right.
pertinax, Jul 21 2017
  
      
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