Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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How Many Times Worse Than Hitler Are You?

A game the whole family can play.
  [vote for,

You roll the dice moving around the board on your rise to power. Along the way you reach challenges to your authority that must be dealt with such as "Fifty Thousand Protesters March In Front Of Your Palace Demanding Election Reform." You have a series of cards that you can play to get through those impediments.

These cards are: "Call for a televised debate" "Call for a voter referendum", "Arrest the leaders", "Arrest everybody" or "Gun them all down in the street like the dogs they are."

Each card allows you to advance a certain number of places on the board. "Call for a televised debate" = 1 square. "Gun them all down...etc " advances you 5 squares.

Your goal is to reach total power on the other side of the board, but here's the interesting part: at the end, all the players tally up their "Use of power" cards and compare the carnage they caused to the real numbers Hitler rang up during his reign.

Ok Bob, you're the first to get to total power, let's see how you did. You used nothing but your mass extermination cards, even against those people marching in support of bus discounts for the handicapped. (Well played sir!) which means you killed... 160 million people! That makes you... 8 times worse than Hitler!

doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

Dictators http://www.boardgam...ame/38470/dictators
Somewhat similar idea although nobody seems to have ever seen or played it. A link to the rules is at the bottom of the page & is still working. [DrBob, Dec 13 2015]

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's http://www.bbc.co.u...referendum-36295208
There ya go ... [8th of 7, May 15 2016]

Trump = Hitler comparison chart http://static.indep...er-donald-trump.jpg
[xenzag, May 15 2016]

NOAA https://en.wikipedi...eric_Administration
Likely to have an inside track on the need for Ark construction. [8th of 7, May 15 2016]

Move to where the food is https://www.youtube...watch?v=P0q4o58pKwA
[theircompetitor, May 16 2016]

Blondi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondi
A tragcally shortened life. [8th of 7, May 16 2016]

MRE https://en.wikipedi.../Meal,_Ready-to-Eat
Edible (allegedly). [8th of 7, May 17 2016]

Trump vs Bill Clinton on immigration http://www.realclea...nation_of_laws.html
Kind of makes my point about tribalism trumping debate on the issues [doctorremulac3, May 17 2016]


       What's the exchange rate ? Ten Pol Pots equal one Hitler, two Hitlers equal one Stalin, Two Stalins equal one Mao Zedong ... ?
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015

       I'm going to pretend I did Nazi this.   

       As long as Trump is used as the base measure, and not Hitler. Trump is the new age version of Hitler and has the potential to be much worse..... Rem Hitler had no nuclear bombs! Imagine Trump with his moronic fingers on the nuclear button!!!! Shudders!
xenzag, Dec 12 2015

       So since Trump is worse that Hitler I guess it stands to reason that Hitler is a better person than Trump?   

       So what are the glowing personal attributes Hitler had that Trump lacks?
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

       Also, Trump sells "Trump Steaks". No such thing as Hitler Steaks as he was veg.
slater, Dec 12 2015

       Hitler knew that trees could not talk. Trump attending secret 'learn to speak in sycamore' classes to increase the size of his brainless audience.
xenzag, Dec 12 2015

       Ignoring for now all the (hopefully) tongue in cheek comments, another thing that would be interesting would be having the "Impediment squares" lined with increasingly challenging people to stand up against from a moral perspective.   

       A boycott for instance led by nuns who run orphanages and feed the homeless. Are you really gonna play that street massacre card?
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

       depends, are the nuns, orphans and homeless all in one place at one time ?
FlyingToaster, Dec 12 2015

       To be serious for a minute, I assume that the more higher-rating cards you play, the greater risk of calamitous defeat by coup or invasion? E.g. arrest;— miss 20 turns. Exile;— start again from the beginning. Assasination;— you are out of the game. How could that work? A separate dice roll after playing a card, multiplied by the card ranking, to be read off a chart of results? So any roll after playing the televised debate card is likely to be safe, but a double six after playing the machine-gunning card would get you assassinated I suppose.
pocmloc, Dec 12 2015

       Yea, I like that.   

       Then you just have the element of chance that all board games have giving some benefit to playing it nice like you say.   

       There are risks to being a tyrant that could be fit into the game quite nicely and those risks could be compounded the more brutal you are.   

       Hmm. This started as a joke, sounding sort of interesting now.   

       By the way, I actually have designed a video game you can buy for the iPhone. It got very good reviews and people have spend money on it so I guess you can say I'm technically a game designer, having actually designed a game. Maybe it's time for another one.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

       //Off topic and rambling anno marked for expiry.//   

       All comments are welcome on my posts bro. I like hearing what people have to say. Nobody's grading these.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

       ^ That's a very Nazi attitude, [doc] ...   

       // So what are the glowing personal attributes Hitler had that Trump lacks? //   

       Tolerance, empathy, multiculturalism, and the ability to select a hair stylist who doesn't spent their working hours out of their head on inhaled volatile solvents.
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015

       Well, we'll see if "You sir, are worse than Trump!" will work as the ultimate insult in 70 years but he'll have to do a lot more than have a bad hairstyle and offend people.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015

       This brings to mind Robert Conquest's limerick:   

       There was an old bastard named Lenin
Who did two or three million men in.
That's a lot to have done in
But, where he did one in,
That old bastard Stalin did ten in.

       It raises the problem that, once you get past a certain point, it becomes difficult to track your score. This is partly because your secret police have long since redeployed* the sort of judgemental busybodies who might keep count, and partly because of the problematic boundaries of responsibility.   

       For example, when we** put King Charles I on trial (admittedly quite a low-scoring player, by later standards), he was accused of criminal responsibility for all the deaths (on both sides, I think) in the second civil war, but not for those in the first civil war (which, I suppose, was deemed a fair fight by comparison).   

       *to important worm-feeding duties   

       **Yes, I'm a puritan. Sort of.
pertinax, Dec 13 2015

       Is the picture on the game board of Mussolini asking the question? Looking down on the family playing the board game with his hand on a diminutive Hitler's shoulder? His other hand extended palm facing upward in a questioning manner? What would the look on Mussolini's face be, puzzlement?   

       I don't like the game idea, because I don't like the understanding of WW2 being limited to that one person. Obviously authoritarian power was a central issue to the war, but condemnation should be placed on authoritarianism and totalitarianism rather than on one glaringly evil dictator. Even in terms of sovereign power that was tag-team action with Mussolini getting things rolling to start with.
guncandy, Dec 13 2015

       //Ok Bob, you're the first to get to total power//

But of course. And now it's time to examine everyone's loyalty rating.

[Marches off to examine all anno's on own ideas]
DrBob, Dec 13 2015

       Good point, [Ian].   

       You're left-handed, aren't you ?   

       Hmmm, that's one more for the Wicker Man ...
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015

       //But of course. And now it's time to examine everyone's loyalty rating.//   

       Ok, now this is getting interesting.   

       You can form alliances with other players! Hand the other guy a non aggression card. The guy can of course hand it back when he screw you over.   

       The alliance card means when he lands on the "Other powers carpet bomb your capital" square, he doesn't take place. Of course, he can change his mind, hand the card back and bomb you.   

       You could also gain or lose numbers on your side.   

       It almost starts looking like it's too complicated for a cardboard box game but lends itself to being an internet based game.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015

       For added realism, you could play on an entire planetary surface using all the available area and resources.
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015

       //But Hitler was not a dictator. The Nazi party was voted into power//   

       Non sequitur. Julius Caesar, for example, won elections and was a dictator. "Dictator Perpetuus" was one of the titles you can see on his coinage, IIRC. Dictatorship doesn't mean you were never elected. It only means you make it unduly hard to un-elect you afterwards (and otherwise bugger about with the constitution).
pertinax, Dec 13 2015

       //But Hitler was not a dictator. The Nazi party was voted into power//   

       Yea, but as Pertinax pointed out, that was definitely a "One man, one vote, one time" scenario.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015

       “Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.”
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015

       He was a dictator. He may have been voted in, but he seized control. It's important point [Ian] makes that he was democratically elected to begin with, but he is wrong to suggest that a dictator can't be democratically elected. It's key to understand that part of the political movement was about authoritarian rule and having a sovereign rather than democracy and republicanism.
guncandy, Dec 13 2015

       I think the game should be packaged with a set of military style peaked caps, gradated by the width of their top and the length of their peak, each with one more gold star on the brim than the previous. At the end of each turn, the players have to swap hats according to their position in the game.
pocmloc, Dec 13 2015

       Don't forget the gigantic gold-braid epaulets, and the chestful of medals ...   

       [pert] is of course quite right about Gaius Juius Caesar. He was elected consul under the Republican constitution; He was elected War Dictator for a fixed term.   

       Winston Churchill was effectively appointed as a Dictator in 1940, and weilded considerably more direct power than Roosevelt or indeed Hitler. Only Stalin and Chiang Kai-Shek were individually more powerful, but they were truly totalitarian, whereas Winston espoused constitutional democracy in both word and deed.   

       One of the greatest problems faced by the Japanese was in fact that they suffered from fragmented authority, and a painfully slow (and ultimately disastrous) policy and decision -making process based on consensus.
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015

       Damn. I want to play this game, but you'd have to be able to win be being a good guy, maybe it's just a little harder.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015

       "That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off."   

       I think that it will take an untried form of government for that to work.
A Minarchy.

       From all the remarks here, and the entry itself, it seems you do not realize the difference between Hitler - with his regime vs plain old dictators and dictatorships with no supremacist ideology, and no effort to take over and enslave the entire world.
pashute, Dec 14 2015

       Not at all like Mao and Stalin, then ?
8th of 7, Dec 14 2015

       //From all the remarks here, and the entry itself, it seems you do not realize the difference between Hitler - with his regime vs plain old dictators and dictatorships with no supremacist ideology, and no effort to take over and enslave the entire world.//   

       Ahh, very, very, very, very intelligent point. Just kidding. The game measures your being worse than Hitler or not by the amount of people you kill. If you kill ten times more, you're ten times worse than Hitler.   

       What your post just said was that, no, you can kill ten times more people than Hitler and NOT be ten times worse because you need to consider other factors. So by that non-logic you could kill a hundred times more people than Hitler and NOT be a hundred times worse because you were nice enough to not want to take over the whole world, just one continent perhaps, and your philosophy wasn't supremacist, it was something else. Not sure how you kill millions of people without think you're supreme.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015

       // Not sure how you kill millions of people without think you're supreme. //   

       Easy. Become a Roman Catholic and tell yourself you're carrying out God's will. Putting unbelievers to fire and the sword than becomes a genuine duty and assures forgiveness of your sins. There were these things called Crusades, they were very popular at one time...
8th of 7, Dec 14 2015

       Right, because they thought they were supreme. I'd be interested to see the exception to this rule.   

       "My fellow revolutionaries, all these people in the land of (fill in the blank) are admittedly smarter, more advanced and better looking than us, but we must wipe them all out so we can usher in our leader's vision of a stupider, more primitive and uglier and even SMELLIER world! ARE YOU WITH ME BROTHERS!!!!!"   

       Yea, not gonna hear that. I think to sell genocide you have to paint a picture of a better world without the enemy.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015

       //The Nazi party was voted into power, by a majority of the people, who believed in the advantages of national socialism//

{{{{{ ALARM BELLS }}}}}

Err, no. Totally the opposite actually. Apologies for moving away from the idea but I think that this needs to be addressed. Hitler was appointed as Chancellor by President Hindenburg after several elections failed to produce a majority government of any kind. Hitler then persuaded Hindenburg to suspend the constitution & was able to pass laws without the consent of the assembly, thus creating an un-elected dictatorship.
DrBob, Dec 14 2015

       I stand corrected, you're absolutely right.   

       Thank DrBob, you need to show up on this site more. My guess is that you're a real doctor unlike me despite what my hastily chosen moniker would suggest.   

       Yea, weren't there like 300 political parties or something in Germany at the time? So I guess you could say Hitler was a product of a FAILED democratic system.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015

       DrBob is a real doctor, unlike medical doctors, in that he has no less than 3 PhDs, one in each of: knowledge; Lewes; and love.
calum, Dec 14 2015

       But not in bobbing?
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015

       Well he was initially democratically elected in 1932 with a third of the votes, he was appointed Chancellor afterwards.
guncandy, Dec 14 2015

       This sounds a bit like Sid Meier's Civilization 3.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015

       //But not in bobbing?//
Curiously, no. In this he remains a talented amateur.
calum, Dec 14 2015

       I always respect that more.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015

       The problem with the Hitler as a unit of badness is that it is too large for practical purposes. We need smaller units.   

       I propose we use standard SI prefixes. For instance:   

       picoHitler: dropping litter; thinking bad things about nuns.
nanoHitler: non-grievous bodily harm
microHitler: multiple homicide (up to say 10-20)
milliHitler: large-scale terrorist attacks
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015

       Lol! Picohitler.   

       Ok, that's the most clever post of the day. I can't beat that. I'm done.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015

       //thinking bad things about nuns// Metrologists won't like this one. I mean, there is a very broad spectrum of things that you could think about nuns, with varying degrees of badness. This is a sub-optimal standard against which to define your unit.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015

       // This is a sub-optimal standard against which to define your unit.//   

       My scale was not meant so much as a definition, but rather as an example of things for which the corresponding unit would be suited. Thusfore, a mild curiosity about what a nun wears under her habit might be on the order of 4pH; thinking she'd look good in a gimp suit would perhaps be 42pH. But neither of those would be in the range of zeptoHitlers or nanoHitlers.   

       Equally, the yard is an appropriate unit of measurement for cars or trees, whereas the lightyear is more suited to astronomical distances - but the definition of each unit is much more precise.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015

       Ah yes of course. As you were.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015

       Oh fck me I n3ed to catch this in the morning when I'm sober! <3
po, Dec 14 2015

       I can tell you're pissed because you're using capitals.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015

       1.2 times.   


       Go straight to Jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
popbottle, Dec 16 2015

       The metric should show Hitler at the extremes as either a skull or a heavily bearded man buried in the Argentine pampas.   

       Also, Hindenburg liked to suspend German parliament far before Hitler. If we had a Hindenburg symbol, it would glow in the dark, bob, etc.
4and20, Dec 16 2015

       //If we had a Hindenburg symbol, it would glow in the dark, bob, etc.// It might, but it would be impossible to predict. Hindenburg uncertainty principle.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 16 2015

       Being played by the Conservatives at the moment? Godwin's law has inevitably been proved correct again.
bhumphrys, May 15 2016

       Ahhh, the boy Boris is always good value ...   

8th of 7, May 15 2016

       There is no contest here..... Hitler hated the Jews, but Trump hates all muslims, all mexicans, many women and then you can throw in disabled folk. That's a hatred list that must be billions of people in size. Compared to Trump, Hitler was just an apprentice.
xenzag, May 15 2016

       // Hitler hated the Jews, //   

       ... and homosexuals, gypsies, slavs, Catholics, opposition politicians, Jehova's Witnesses, criminals ...   

       // Trump hates all muslims, //   

       He may not actually hate them - it may just be virulent suspicion and distrust ..   

       // all mexicans, //   

       About 120 million, then.   

       // many women //   

       Any idea what proportion ? That could be anything up to 55% of your planet's population. Best check that with Melania.   

       // you can throw in disabled folk. //   

       What, like into a big pit ?   

       // That's a hatred list that must be billions of people in size. //   

       To be fair, all those people probably hate Americans and all things American just as much ...   

       // Compared to Trump, Hitler was just an apprentice. //   

       You can thank global TV for that. It's hard to hate people you know nothing about; thanks to the media, it's possible to quickly and easily learn a great deal about other countries, their cultures, people and lifestyles. And start to loathe and detest them, on the basis of irrational prejudice, incomplete or biased information, and simple xenophobia.
8th of 7, May 15 2016

       Trump is a know-nothing with an authoritarian streak, to be sure. Comparing him to Hitler misses the point -- in addition to being both idiotic and offensive. Hitler was made possible by colossal failure. One hopes that we're not quite at that level of failure, yet.
theircompetitor, May 15 2016

       Trump is made possible by an equally colossal failure to educate the average American to anything above the intellect of that of a foraging mollusc. In the USA, ignorance of the outside world has been developed to an art form. It's the only place I can imagine in which vast amounts of money are being devoted to building replicas of Noa's ark, complete with hop-scotch playing dinosaurs. Large numbers of America's creative community are setting themselves up to leave rather than face a future under Trump with his nasty, Hitler type obsessions. Who can blame them.
xenzag, May 15 2016

       // Hitler was made possible by colossal failure. //   

       ... of democracy.   

       // Trump is made possible by an equally colossal failure to educate the average American to anything above the intellect of that of a foraging mollusc. //   

       Trump is made electable by an equally colossal failure to educate the average American politician to anything above the intellect of that of a foraging mollusc. In fact, that's being unkind to many surprisingly clever species of gastropod.   

       //In the USA, ignorance of the outside world has been developed to an art form. //   

       ... apart, ironically, from the enormous amount of foreign art stuff that Americans have aquired and shipped back to the Getty, the Met, the Guggenheim...   

       // It's the only place I can imagine in which vast amounts of money are being devoted to building replicas of Noa's ark, complete with hop-scotch playing dinosaurs. //   

       You have a very limited imagination. Do you mean to say that the NOAA are building an ark ? If they're doing that, it's likely they know something they're keeping quiet, and it might be a good idea to find out what. Very soon.   

       //Large numbers of America's creative community are setting themselves up to leave rather than face a future under Trump with his nasty, Hitler type obsessions. //   

       Well, they're probably all liberals, pinkos, commies, left-leaning environmentalists and academics.   

       Oh, there go the educators. Result: Trump gets re-elected forever by mollusc-brained right-wing gun-toting fundamentalist bible-thumpers. O Brave, New World ...!   

       // Who can blame them. //   

       Everyone. Is that a trick question, or rhetoric ?
8th of 7, May 15 2016

       If people are going to keep hating on Trump, would someone tell me why he's so much worse than the others?   

       I don't care that much about American politics and I kind of have trouble telling the parties apart, but generally I can at least follow what people don't like about a character...   

       I know, I know, there's this:
//Trump hates all muslims, all mexicans, many women and then you can throw in disabled folk.//
Maybe I'm being too charitable in assuming he's just a bit like Boris Johnson.
Loris, May 15 2016

       They both have wierd hair, for a start.   

       // why he's so much worse than the others? //   

       He's not; he just expresses what a lot of voters think. Of course, that means the media - packed to the rafters with the usual poisonous mix of socialists, hand-wringing bleeding-heart liberals, do-gooders and crypto-Maoists - fear and detest him, as do the political establishment and bureaucracy who are horrified at the idea of someone in power with actual different polices, and who can't be bought or bribed because thery're already a billionaire.   

       What if he does get elected ? Well, it's called "democracy". Get over it.
8th of 7, May 15 2016

       The idea that Trump can't be bought is laughable.... making mega money is his only ethos and you can't be more bought by others than when you adopt this moronic agenda. With Trump in power, America is finished, for exactly the same reasons as Germany was finished as soon as they elected Hitler.
xenzag, May 16 2016

       //We now have a British Antarctic Survey research vessel named RRS Sir David Attenborough, and not Boaty McBoatface. That sort of democracy?//   

       You've got to be kidding me! The elites stepped in and wrecked this awesome example of the will of the people?   

       I'm not being sarcastic, that really is a great example of the people coming up with a great path, a name of a ship that's fun, and the elites swatting them down.   

       I would rebel and refer to it at Boaty McBoatface anyway. Or better yet, the "Floaty Attenborough Buttface Boat 9,000"   

       Xen, don't you think the country would be better off if we put Trump supporters in extermination camps? If Trump's worse than Hitler, then his supporters are worse than the Nazis, so to let them live wold be akin to supporting, nay, fomenting genocide.   

       I would posit that if you do not support the mass execution of millions of Trump supporters that YOU are worse than Hitler.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       It's amazing to me that anyone who has the wit and creativity to post on the halfbakery would declare themselves to be a supporter of Trump. Trump is identical to Hitler, except projected 70 years into the future. He is the Hitler of modern times.
xenzag, May 16 2016

       // 70 years //   

       Trump was elected Chancellor of Germany in 2003 ? Who knew, huh ?   

       // identical //   

       Adolf had a much more credible hairstyle than Donald does.   

       Hands up anyone who's noticed that "Donald" and "Adolf" have four of the same letters ? That's got to be more than just coincidence, shirley ?   

       Anyway, if Donald does become a problem, the British have the means to stop him. When a megalomaniac billionaire hiding in a secret under(ground/sea/wear/sized)* (bunker/factory/facility/ cafe/missile silo/garage)* tries to take over the world, there's only one thing to do- send in James Bond …   

       *Delete where not applicable, if any.
8th of 7, May 16 2016

       //It's amazing to me that anyone who has the wit and creativity to post on the halfbakery would declare themselves to be a supporter of Trump.//   

       I'm not a drone for Trump, or any other candidate, I'm just being a smart-ass poking fun at this whole Hitler-centric debate methodology.   

       But any support I do have of Trump stems from his ability to infuriate the left. I hate the left, even though I agree with many of their tenets. I'm also a big anti-globalist, that is, a big one world government where all the elites tell the rest of us what to do. Not a new concept by the way. Didn't like it when Hitler was doing it, don't like it now that our elites are proposing it.   

       Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are getting big support from the people despite being, shall we say, "flawed" to put it mildly. This is because the people have metaphorically voted "Boaty Mc Boatface" and the elites are furious.   

       I have great disdain for our current leaders. I'd rather have a Trump / Sanders election than another Clinton / Bush election which was what we were offered, and largely rejected.   

       Caligula didn't appoint his horse to the Senate because he thought he'd be a great leader, it was to express his contempt for the existing body politic. I think that most closely approximates my support for anybody coming into office from somewhat outside the system. Caligula did it because he was a psycho brat, but the Americans are doing something similar because they're fed up.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Incitatus may not have been top of the line in debates, but he did look good in a toga, and he could beat all the other senators in the 100m dash … that's got to be worth something.   

       The main problem was his negative attitude … apparently he voted "Nay !" to everything …
8th of 7, May 16 2016

       "Americans are fed up" - fed up with what? This is the greediest country on the face of the world, who already have everything, yet find constant causes for unhappiness by blaming everyone else for their own internal conditions. People like Trump simply hate everyone and suggestions that his message exists, and has gained traction because of some kind of righteous frustrations are simplistic. He's symptomatic of dumbing down. America has dumbed down. Its education system has dumbed down. Its media has dumbed down and when everything is dumbed down, then stupidity can ascend. Simplistic messages and the transferance of blame of Germany's failures unto the Jews is being repeated in the USA. Trump is America's new age Hitler, but even Hitler didn't try to learn to speak in sycamore.
xenzag, May 16 2016

       Trump is simply a troll in the system, as are you in this case
theircompetitor, May 16 2016

       //apparently he voted "Nay !" to everything …//   

       (groan! face-palm)   

       //"Americans are fed up" - fed up with what?//   

       I can't speak for the rest of dumb America, I can only speak for dumb me.   

       I worked very hard all my life. I've seen more of the world and lived with a more diverse cross section of society than most so I think I have perspectives from more angles than most people can draw from. I've rubbed elbows with gang members and on a couple of occasions, heads of fortune 500 companies. I was one of those few white people who was born and raised in the ghetto. East Palo Alto California, (look it up, highest murder rate of any city ON EARTH in the 90s.) It wasn't my father's fault, he was just out of his teens, fresh from combat in the US Army overseas and it's all he could afford while he worked full time and raised his family as best he could while earning his licenses in electrical and mechanical engineering. He and the rest of the family worked hard and moved into the middle class.   

       Because I worked my ass off, and suffered through a ton of shit, I've had business ventures that have made a reasonable chunk of money from time to time and whenever that's happened, I've had to give a substantial portion of it to the system via taxes. I have no say in how this money is spent but if I don't pay it, I'll go to jail. So that means a certain percentage of my life is spent working to pay for somebody else's glorious ideology whether I agree with it or not. Money that could buy a better education for my children, a nicer house or even "GASP!" a well deserved respite from my hard work, goes to somebody who has declared themselves better than me and more entitled to spend my money than I am.   

       So excuse me if, after forking over hundreds of thousands of dollars to a bunch of assholes that squander it on bullshit that I don't agree with, I don't drop to me knees and say "Thank you wonderful leaders! Thank you so much for taking such a big portion of my life to pay for your grand plans for domination of the world." And if per- chance I get fed up when given a choice of figureheads to put a smiling face on their regime, and vote for a horse, or a clown, or a jelly donut, maybe it's my way of flipping off the current group of people in charge.   

       I'm one of the hard working citizens paying for the system, so with all due respect, I'll reserve my right to criticize it.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Sounds like a Trump speech, minus the million-dollar loan from his father.
RayfordSteele, May 16 2016

       Which part? Growing up in the ghetto? Working hard and starting out with nothing? Having a young father working two jobs and putting himself through school while raising a family? Seeing the world on my own without a penny from daddy?   

       If there's a polar opposite to Trump's story, it would be mine.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Plus [Doc] has opposable thumbs.
MaxwellBuchanan, May 16 2016

       ...as far as you know.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Palo Alto? Are you for real? (I've rubbed elbows with gang members - laughs) It's not a competition, but compared to living through a real paramilitary war (like I did) you had a life of luxury in a fairly normal civilised place, like most Americans who whinge about everything and are soooooo hard done by. Try seeing people shoveled into bin bags after no-warning car bombs. This is what annoys me most - selfish dumbed down Americans who will vote for a dangerous hatred merchant without ever seeing the real results of what supporting greedy morons like Trump can lead to. I make no apology for detesting Trump. No one with any decency should express one iota of support for him.
xenzag, May 16 2016

       It's perfectly fine to detest trump. Somewhat inconsistent to generalize Americans though, or pre judge them, that being his worst sin, so far
theircompetitor, May 16 2016

       //Palo Alto?//   

       No. EAST Palo Alto. Look it up. It's a very, very, very different city than Palo Alto.   

       And isn't a bit hypocritical to accuse Trump of being worse than Hitler for making broad generalizations about how certain groups of people are awful and in the same breath to talk about how awful Americans are?   

       So where's this place you grew up where they blow people up? Sounds like you might have had a tough childhood too. Sorry about that. Might be time to move beyond all the hate though. You're not getting anything for it.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       The part where you trump up your accomplishments as a reason to be seen as an impressive ass with not so much social sense.   

       East Palo Alto: Population 24,000 at the time. Highest murder rate doesn't mean much when you have essentially a zero as a divisor. Try Detroit or Flint or Gary if you want a real sympathy story.
RayfordSteele, May 16 2016

       Ray, you're an idiot.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       You heard it here first, folks.
MaxwellBuchanan, May 16 2016

       Detroit's murder rate averages about 40 per 100,000 residents.   

       In 1992, East Palo Alto had the highest homicide rate in the country with 24,322 people, and 42 murders, equaling a rate of 172.7 homicides per 100,000 residents. I had a business that leased a fairly large building in that area at the time. The sound of gunfire wan't uncommon.   

       Anyway, Ray, if you call me names, I'll call you names right back. Doesn't that strike you as something that just makes us both look stupid? So why do it? What's to be gained? I've asked you nicely before to knock to off but you keep lurking around my posts looking for a fight. Any point in asking you again nicely?   

       Pretty please, with sugar on it. Knock it the fuck off.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Another Trump speech. Change your attitude if you want a better response.   

       Yeah thanks I can use Wikipedia. How many people have been killed in it total? Vs. Detroit over how many years? When every other house is abandoned and the ones that aren't are likely crack houses, and there are no jobs for your father to work let alone interested investors a mere 5 clicks away, come back and tell me your sob story.   

       How far is Palo Alto and other areas of high probability of success or running into someone who is?
RayfordSteele, May 16 2016

       //How far is Palo Alto and other areas of high probability of success or running into someone who is?//   

       Ok, you're drunk Ray. Sleep it off.   

       No hard feelings, we can debate some other time.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Luckily there are cars in Detroit, and no border to run? I think both of you might benefit from a good dose of Sam Kinison
theircompetitor, May 16 2016

       Now THAT!....   

       ...is a good idea.   

       By the way, when I urge people to lighten up I should probably practice what I preach.   

       Ray, Xen. Love out to you for the good that I'm sure exists in great abundance in both of you, despite our differences.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       I'm probably still a million times worse, this just adds an asterisk and corresponding footnote to my file.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       It'll probably have to b decided on how many times you've administered cyanide to your pet dog and your wife on the same day.
8th of 7, May 16 2016

       Hitler liked dogs, so that would give him the edge right there.   

       I've got an idea, instead of saying somebody's worse than Hitler, how about just voicing the comparison from a different angle? Something like:   

       "You make Hitler look like the most beautiful, kind, sweet, loving, gentle, wonderful person who's ever lived. When I see you, Hitler looks so good by comparison I just want to kiss his little cheeks, tweak his sweet little mustache and cuddle him."   

       Too weird? Never mind. I don't want this Hitler discussion to get silly.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Just grow and practice some humility as a general principle, and leave the defensiveness behind. That's all I ask. And I don't drink.
RayfordSteele, May 16 2016

       Now THAT explains everything (param, pam)   

       Trump is giving a bad name to healthy self confidence for a generation, that's for sure
theircompetitor, May 16 2016

       // Hitler liked dogs //   

       Yes, but it didn't stop him testing his suicide capsules on Blondi.   

8th of 7, May 16 2016

       //Just grow and practice some humility as a general principle, and leave the defensiveness behind. That's all I ask.//   

       So I shouldn't get defensive when you call me an ass? I have much to learn o wise one.   

       Might want to get an MRI though if that sentence: "How far is Palo Alto and other areas of high probability of success or running into someone who is?" was written sober.   

       Re: Link about Hitler's dog Blondi. "Eva Braun, Hitler's companion came to hate Blondi and was known to kick her under the dining table."   

       Wonder if Hitler ever got mad at her for this and accused her of being worse than Hitler.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016

       Yes, it was. The question refers to how far Palo Alto is from East Palo Alto. My quick search tells me that it isn't that far, so to speak to the fact that you rubbed elbows with both gang members and fortune 500 types doesn't strike me as that odd, but mostly the result of local geography that would naturally provide such opportunities to people with more than half a gram of ambition, whereas, in Detroit, its nothing but miles and miles of oppressive ruins that would crush the soul of most, with horribly bleak weather to boot.   

       And yes, from popular concensus of some long term people who have since left this place after you arrived, you do have some learning to do that way. I might be an idiot, don't know for certain as we are all blind to our biggest weaknesses, but to my knowledge I've never been associated with an exodus of people who looked around and saw that their once favorite hangout had become a dive.
RayfordSteele, May 16 2016

       //And yes, from popular concensus of some long term people who have since left this place after you arrived, you do have some learning to do that way.//   

       Do you have dice with random words on them that you roll to compose your sentences? Well, if I squeezed the right meaning out of that word soup, we can't all be charming little rays of sunshine and joy like you.   

       This conversation is really taking me out of mein kampfort zone. I don't think I can go any fuhrer.
doctorremulac3, May 16 2016


       the trick is to read a persons' words in their own accent... if you can figure out what that accent is.
The fragmentary sentences make sense then.

       I missed the mass exodus?...

       Memo's people! I ask you. Are they really too much to ask?   

       My fear is that "How far is Palo Alto and other areas of high probability of success or running into someone who is?" if a perfectly put together sentence and I'm having some kind of brain aneurysm that's making it look like a jumbled mess. Maybe I'm the one who needs the MRI.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       Just needs a comma between "success" and "or running" plus a London, (I think), accent.   

       Makes perfect sense... guv.   

       Hmm. Think I'll get an MRI anyway, just to be on the safe side.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       Or you could get a MRE, which is much cheaper and will stop you feeling hungry.   

8th of 7, May 17 2016

       There's a difference? Now you tell me.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       // the hope Obama offered //   

       "Work your socks off (if you're lucky enough to have a job, that is) and pay lots and lots of tax for bugger all in return, and if everything goes to plan, and we continue to borrow incomprehensible and unsustainable amounts of money, then with luck, tomorrow might be only a little bit worse for you than today".   

       That the sort of "hope", you mean ?
8th of 7, May 17 2016

       In 2008 the situation here was 'last person in Michigan please turn off the light.' Today that is no longer the case. While the other industries may or may not have felt any hopey-changy, where I live and work the the situation was pretty obvious.
RayfordSteele, May 17 2016

       Our current President is the worst since Buchanan, our previous one is less so in my partisan view, but certainly is up there in terms of failure. Trump is a tantrum, we've had one before in Jackson. The Republic will survive Trump should he win. But we are on the verge of such changes that no politician really knows what to do. Trump doesn't either, but he projects not being afraid. That's what makes him appealing to many.   

       That same hope extend to Appalachia, Ray?
theircompetitor, May 17 2016

       // The Republic will survive Trump should he win. //   

       That's the idea of a self-renewing constitutional government. It seems to be working so far.   

       // But we are on the verge of such changes that no politician really knows what to do. //   

       Correct. Partisan politics, idealism, "belief" and politicians have no part to play in the future. What you're seeing is the last twitches of a corpse.   

       // Trump doesn't either, but he projects not being afraid. That's what makes him appealing to many. //   

       Pragmatism, stoicism and determination will get him a lot further than the alternatives.
8th of 7, May 17 2016

       By the way, in my opinion, Trump didn't run for president to win the office, he did it as sort of a reality star thing, taking it to the next level and as a platform to field ideas. I believe he thought he'd get some support that he could hand over to the winning candidate via an endorsement in return for implementing some of his ideas. At very least he'd get his voice heard and certain issues and get some tv time which is what the guy does for a living. He's a real estate mogul but he's the most successful reality tv star as well. It's what he does.   

       I couldn't figure why a man who was at least intelligent enough to run a pretty big company would say the incendiary things he was saying until this explanation hit me. Nobody is dumb enough to not know you don't say certain things when you're seriously running for office. The imitating of the handicapped guy was his way of saying "I'm not serious about this." I thought.   

       But he leapt ahead in the polls and said "Whoa, I might really win this thing." changed his approach a bit and is now serious about the office. Maybe, I can't say what's really in somebody's head.   

       This was just s tinfoil hat theory of mine until an ex campaign manager came out a few weeks ago and said the exact same thing.   

       So not sure if it's true, but it would explain a lot.   

       Do I support him? As a protest, but I also support Bernie for the same reason. I'd like to see them both run against each other. Try out a government run by someone other than lobbyists which is what we have and what you'd have with Hillary. I believe that the damage any of these two could do would be outweighed by the benefit of having a political system where outsiders can get in to the top office. Cronyism and corruption is the main problem we're seeing and if these goofballs can be president, maybe somebody good will get into office someday.   

       There's nothing in the polls indicating he's going to win anyway so this is all debate club stuff.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       //Our current President is the worst since Buchanan//   

       Ahem. A-very-hem.
MaxwellBuchanan, May 17 2016

       Ike (Eisenhower) was the man in my opinion. Build the highway system, kept the military strong while warning us to beware the military industrial complex. America blossomed under this administration. I say dig him up and use science to get his administration going again.   

       Plus he kicked the crap out of the Nazis, there's that.   

       And talk about somebody who could unite people, both parties wanted him to run as their candidate. Of course that couldn't happen now since it's all about tribalism "I hate all the Republicans/Democrats, they're all worse than Hitler."
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       [tc], Yes, a trickle of it did, at least when it came to healthcare. As far as coal goes, I can't help an industry that has umpteen better technologies waiting in the wings. It's frankly dying for a reason. Meanwhile, we still drive cars of some fashion, even if trains and buses are a smarter option.   

       Doc, I largely agree with your Trump reality show assessment and thought largely the same for a good while. See, we think more alike than you know. And I'd take another Ike any day.   

       The one good thing that Trump has done has brought more interest into the primary process, so that we can perhaps get more options than the usual suspects.   

       Personally I support Bernie not just for a protest vote but for a reset; let the land lie fallow for a bit before we try and harvest again. 4 years of Bernie could do just that.
RayfordSteele, May 17 2016

       We're on the same page about needing a new system. We're currently run by lobbyists, and I wouldn't even mind that if it were working out, but we're sinking in debt, the socialist systems we have in place, many of which I support by the way, are unfunded, our foreign policy is in tatters and our economy is propped up on life support. I believe we may also have an artificially supported stock market poised for a crash but maybe I'm just paranoid.   

       I believe the union would survive a Trump or Sanders presidency and might benefit from a return to democracy, which both of these candidates represent in my opinion.   

       But I could be wrong, this could be the last election before the dissolution of the country, but the system's checks and balances have been working for centuries. Famous last words? Eh, maybe. But I doubt it.   

       Thank you for your polite discourse Ray, I'll do my best to reciprocate.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       // this could be the last election before the dissolution of the country, but the system's checks and balances have been working for centuries. //   

       If you take a longer view, and the U.S. isn't the only one with the problems listed, you might realise that what you're watching is the death-throes of periodic representative democracy (to be replaced by continuous semi-direct democracy) and the consequent demise of the centrally-organised nation-state bound to a specific geographical area (to be replaced by the "service provider" model).   

       Ike and U.S.Grant make an interesting pair for comparison ; both were successful military leaders appointed by politicians and both went on to become effective elected presidents.   

       Then again, so did Gaius Julius Caesar (who was appointed by the Roman Senate).
8th of 7, May 17 2016

       I was reading an article about the move towards "strong men" in the world, Putin being one obvious star of this new movement.   

       Democracy isn't a given. It's just one approach to doing things and it doesn't always work. Democracies get overthrown by dictators, some of whom are democratically elected, get destroyed by war or overthrown by totalitarian regimes. The people aren't infallible in their choices either. Trump or Sanders really could wreck everything. Although I doubt they will, I don't know for sure, and they're both populists. But like them or not, they really do represent the will of the masses albeit as flip sides of the same coin.   

       Which is why I support them. Even if we all screw up, we learn from our mistakes at the end of the day. If we don't have any control over our destiny how can be be expected to properly make the right choices? I'd rather a fallible democracy that's fluid and changeable than a government run by a handful of shadow groups like we have now. And by shadow, I'm not talking about Illuminati or the Freemasons or whatever, you just look at who's giving money to politicians. They're the ones in charge. Our corruption is so out in the open they don't even bother trying to hide it.   

       By the way, see link showing Bill Clinton vs Trump on immigration. Makes my point that there are many people who think Trump is worse than Hitler for his immigration policies that think Bill Clinton is beyond reproach, even if they espouse the same policies.   

       This is an example of tribalism vs debate on the individual issues. We use World Wrestling Foundation rules for our political discourse. Only thing missing is politicians running up on the debate stage and smacking the other guy in the back of the head with a folding chair.   

       Which I would completely support by the way. "Candidate A, you said protectionism in international trade has been tried and has failed, but your opponent made a very cogent counterpoint by hitting you in the back of the head with a chair. How do you respond?"
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       // ur corruption is so out in the open they don't even bother trying to hide it. //   

       Hang on to that insight. It won't help, but you'll have a chance to feel insufferably smug when it finally All Goes Horribly Wrong.   

       // Democracy isn't a given. It's just one approach to doing things and it doesn't always work. //   

       That was recognised in both Athens and Rome. Both had a mechanism for the temporary suspenon of democracy for a limited period and the concurrent appointment of a Dictator, in times of national crisis, usually an external threat.   

       It's instructive to compare the leaderships of the major participants in WWII. Stalin was genuinely an absolute ruler. Hitler, while theoretically a dictator, had surprisingly weak control overall, operating mostly through a circle of powerful cronies. FDR was limited by the US constitution and congressional oversight. Mussolini fpund put to his cost that Fascst Grand Council, set up on the ancient Roman model, really did have power whern it threw him out of office in 1944. The japanese cabinet was a slave to consensus, weak and often divided, crucially handicapped by the ambiguous possibilities of their language and a steadfast refusal to face unpalatable truths.   

       The most powerful leader after Stalin was Churchill- fortunately, an adherent of democratic principles. For four years, many of the usual checks and balances were suspended. There was little or no parliamentary debate on many vital subjects. Many civil rights were suspended; and the interesting thing is that, by and large, the population accepted this with little more than the usual Britisdh grumbling, on the understanding that at the end of hostilities, normal service would be resumed- which it was.
8th of 7, May 17 2016

       Churchill is my favorite politician from history. Half American, half British, his life story reads like a super hero character. Perfect leader of the alliance that, with the Russians, stopped the 3rd Reich.   

       Badly in need of a good modern movie to tell his story including scenes like his escape from a prison camp in his youth. Unfortunately, leftist Hollywood isn't about to celebrate one of the most famous conservatives in history.   

       Damn shame.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       Re: link.   

       Mmmm-not exactly what I had in mind.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       Churchill wasn't always a conservative. His biographies are a great read. My favorite as well. Ever read his WWII histories?   

       Democracies can always fail as well with nothing learned as well. See multiple examples further south.   

       Have to disagree about Trump and Clinton though. Nothing compares to the level of discourse that Trump brought to an otherwise honorable office. Even Nixon knew how to be a statesman when he needed to be.
RayfordSteele, May 17 2016

       I wanted to refer to his quote "If you aren't a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're still a liberal by the time you're 35 you have no brain." but evidently there's no record of him ever saying that.   

       I'm certainly interested in checking out anything about him. A very great man.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       At 25 Churchill was a conservative. In his 40's he was a liberal. Did you know he penned the first unemployment insurance?   

       Grant was an utter failure as a President.
RayfordSteele, May 17 2016

       Didn't know that. Interesting.
doctorremulac3, May 17 2016

       // Grant was an utter failure as a President //   

       That's open to debate. Given the immense challenges of Reconstruction, he didn't do badly - certainly not an "utter failure".
8th of 7, May 18 2016


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