Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
h a l f b a k e r y
The leaning tower of Piezo

idea: add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, best, random

meta: news, help, about, links, report a problem

account: browse anonymously, or get an account and write.

user:
pass:
register,


                           

M-F-D-category edits

Some M-F-D descriptions cause a great deal of discomfiture.
  (+2, -4)
(+2, -4)
  [vote for,
against]

After some considerable time surfing the halfbakery, I've noticed that certain M-F-D labels get thrown at ideas almost reflexively. I believe that in many cases, this is due not to a problem with the idea, as an "idea." Assuming for a moment that these are in fact halfbakery-worthy ideas, I believe that there may be a problem, either with the existence of certain halfbakery categories, or with the way a few M-F-D- labels are explained.

I suggest that we first scrutinize the halfbakery M-F-D categories to be sure that this is not the source of any problem. I believe, that if there is a problem here, it could be found in the WIBNI, WTCTTIS, Advocacy, let's all, or magic labels.

Let us take the WIBNI label.

Standing for "Wouldn't it be nice if..." many new posters are accused of posting WIBNI ideas. Often their idea is every bit as well-thought out as any other idea on here, but runs afoul of the idea because the new poster voices an idea by saying "I can never get X when I want it. Wouldn't it be nice if I had an invention that does X." After this, it appears that some hardened halfbakers instantly MFD the idea as WIBNI, despite the fact that the text of the idea then reads "So we do Y, and Z to a W, then add a Q at this point to make a working device for achieving X."

The WIBNI category also has the following statement "Ideas that already occur in existing science fiction usually belong here." While it is true that many science fiction ideas would easily fall into the category of WIBNI, it is also true that some science fiction ideas (such as "gene therapy" and "Communicators") have in the past become reality, at least to some limited degree, after sufficient tinkering.

While the halfbakery may not be the place for a lot of hot and heavy Sci-Fi tinkering, I believe that the help file mentions something about ideas being best if they are possible. I also believe that the WIBNI label's main intention is summed up in the statement "widely known as desirable, but unobtainable without giving any new clues as to how it could be done."

I suggest that while WIBNI has served us well in the past, it may do better with some modification, into a different tag, with a name such as "Impossible." Such a category could be merged in with the existing "Bad Science."

Alternately, the WIBNI label, if it's spirit is intended to avoid endless Sci-Fi references, could be merged with the two WTCTTIS... categories, to form a more massive tag, known as MFD-Sci-Fi. (For things that are widely known to be popular Science Fiction concepts but which are not explained in the idea in a way that could help make them a reality.) If this course was taken, the wording would need to be very careful, because Science fiction is the breeding ground for some very useful ideas, but without good science to make them possible, they are simply bad science.

Now shall we consider the WTCTTIS... labels. Not to say that these are inappropriate labels, but their long string of letters, and general redundancy with the Magic, or WIBNI categories suggest to me that they are not in fact useful for much. Perhaps I am wrong. After all, a rule that never gets broken may in fact be a very good rule, and I am glad the halfbakery is not the home of countlessly reinventing light sabers and teleporters.

What about the Magic category? Well, an idea that relies on Magic is not really an invention, and not really much fun to read unless it has a powerful humorous aspect to it. However, I feel that sometimes a tighter definition of "technology they know very little about as magic" may be in order.

In particular, I feel Magic is sometimes overused with regards to ideas involving modifying existing life forms. Anyone who's watched a little NOVA knows that pigeons can be selectively bred. One can select the two birds in each generation who have the most feathers on their feet, for example, and get birds who could serve as featherdusters just by walking around your apartment. Likewise, anyone who's seen the Simpsons knows that a little radiation increase the chance of mutation, and could generate interesting new traits in a species. The chance of something in particular occuring is astronomical, but these two concepts are no more out of the scope of a layman than incorporating Custard, or a Sterling engine into an idea must require the poster to have a PHD in chemistry or physics.

Being that I am no expert in genetics, I feel inadequate to specify just how the MFD magic label might be reworded, but I believe that some rewording might give moderators more free time to do whatever they enjoy doing when they are not checking spurrious MFD tags. I believe no halfbakery category should be the unique domain of subject-matter experts. Thus, I assume that a MFD label which attacks anyone simply because they are not an expert is spurrious, unless their idea is also patently impossible, boring as hell, or contains science so bad that any layman would see it as foolish.

I single out for particular study two MFD labels that are commonly used for ideas of particular categories: These are the MFD of Advocacy, and let's all. These MFD labels apparently are intended, among other things. to stop rants and flame wars based on political grounds before they begin.

I've noticed that the Advocacy and Let's all labels tend to be dropped quite heavily, and with confusing abandon on almost any ideas that involve legislation, laws, education, insurance, or government.... of course, the nature of legislation, laws, education, insurance, or government normally dictates that something is advocated, or encouraged for larger groups of people.

MFD Advocacy, and Let's all labels may crop up in such areas as Business: Crime, Business: False claims, Business: insurance, Business: scam, Business: smuggling, Business: training, Culture: calendar, Culture: celebration, Culture: news, Culture: public holiday, Culture: revival, Culture: television, Culture: tourist attraction, Fashion, Halfbakery, Other, and almost every subcategory of Public.

Now I'm not one for fine distinctions, but such categories as Public: education, Public: government, Public: law, and Public: politics tend to be well-nigh mired in charges of advocacy, and let's all. I believe that the Advocacy, and Let's all labels can be easily leveled at many ideas in these areas. Indeed, I would be hard pressed to think of any idea involving a change to the government, politics, law, or education that could not be charged with Advocacy, Let's all, or both. To make a valid contribution in some of these categories, one would almost have to run afoul of both MFD labels. Whether re-writing the Adovacy, or Let's All labels in any way can fix this issue is uncertain to me. Perhaps some halfbakery MFD labels are unsuitable for appendation to certain categories of ideas... If so, it may be worthwhile to specifically discuss this fact, and implace MFD moratoriums as appropriate for these categories.

This of course leads me to the next possibility: That the Halfbakery contains some categories to which any idea would actually be against the spirit of the halfbakery. That is, any "idea" posted under a certain category may automatically earn an MFD tag as soon as it is read. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is somewhat puzzling. Perhaps the internet simply has no good home for such ideas, and the halfbakery, in it's compassion, decided to take in these strays. Perhaps as the site has changed, some popular categories are no longer acceptable. Perhaps it's simply a matter of knowing when to break the rules, and when not to. I suspect that the life of the moderators might be more reasonable if idea categories that imply ideas which would run afoul of M-F-D labels simply did not exist. Searching out such categories would be a somewhat difficult task, I suppose, but might be rewarding in the end.

ye_river_xiv, Oct 06 2009

[link]






       You say early on in the piece that you believe there may be a problem, but I'm not sure you ever state what that problem is. Not clearly, at least. There are a couple of references to overuse and certain tags being "dropped heavily" - is that the problem? (If so, how is that a problem?) Or is it that you believe ideas are being removed for questionable reasons?   

       My understanding is that MFD is just a call for attention, "alerting the authorities" so to speak, and that the determination of whether a so-marked idea qualifies for removal is left to official halfbakery-type persons who are specially trained in such matters. That's a good enough buffer, I think, to resolve any issues that may exist within the categories.
tatterdemalion, Oct 06 2009
  

       While I applaud the paragraph breaks, and loudly, I really wish you'd learn to paraphrase. This is gonna take awhile...   

       Ok, after reading it... I will agree with you that the WTCTTIS categories could probably be eliminated since they can be expressed equally well with the Prior Art tag. Whether it's been done in HB or novel or film shouldn't matter, it's been written but not done. But really all that's needed is an understanding of the MFD on the part of the Baker who casts it.   

       Other than that... what Tatter said.
21 Quest, Oct 06 2009
  

       I like the mfds, and wish there would be an even more diverse basis for such tags. How about NOWINRTTP (Number of words in no relation to tackled problem (works in the too short and too long varieties))
loonquawl, Oct 06 2009
  

       //How about NOWINRTTP (Number of words in no relation to tackled problem (works in the too short and too long varieties))// - or "prolix".
hippo, Oct 06 2009
  

       M-F-D rant
jaksplat, Oct 06 2009
  

       no no -- there's valid points there. The M-F-D tags are in place to keep the halfbakery focused in a certain direction. It's true that most of the ideas in the Public category attract M-F-D's, but notice that most of them are still up; like [tatter] says, they're just to draw moderator attention to them.
CaptainClapper, Oct 06 2009
  

       If the ideas are still up, and still marked to draw moderator attention, does this not suggest some problem? Such as perhaps drawing attention to something that did not need to be attended to by moderators in the first place?   

       Sure, there's going to be mistakes, and no system is perfect, but why are there so many more mistakes in certain categories?
ye_river_xiv, Oct 11 2009
  

       Marking something MFD is a grave matter, in my view.   

       I note widespread misuse of the Let's All tag, which appears to be widely misunderstood.   

       There's also some confusion about what constitutes Baked. I've always seen it as "exactly the same thing", unless you happen to be [PeterSealy], [DrCurry] or [21Quest]. In that case it's "Oh, looky here, I found something that's remotely similar, so I get to use an MFD tag, Yay!"
UnaBubba, Oct 11 2009
  

       Yeah. Not to mention that "baked" isn't grounds for deletion.   

       The focus of this site is difficult to delineate and sometimes to describe, but making that definition "clearer" in line with the way literalists choose to misinterpret the rules doesn't actually get it any closer to its goal.   

       There are little paragraphs in the help file that explain each tag. If you read them, you can throw out most of the knee-jerk "let's all", "advocacy", and "WIBNI" tags, as well as many paragraphs of this idea, to the point where it's really embarrassing to even have to explain the half-sentence the MFDer clearly didn't read, or, more likely, ignored.   

       It would be nice if people who like to hand out bogus MFDs learned from their rejection notices. But not everybody does, and these people still have an opinion worth listening to; they just express it badly. It's up to everybody else to try and hear through the static.
jutta, Oct 12 2009
  

       Maybe yet another meeting is required to go over the brand guidelines - who books the flights/hotel this time?
Ian Tindale, Oct 12 2009
  

       I'm so glad I'm widely regarded as too rude to be a moderator. It must be a thankless task indeed.
UnaBubba, Oct 12 2009
  

       Similarly, I doubt if I could keep my own bias out of it. I'd probably end up picking on a few people all the time by being over-attentive or critical and turning a deaf eye to a few others and being inconsistent or lazy for several months in a row and then giving it all up at my convenience. I applaud those who do the job.
Ian Tindale, Oct 12 2009
  

       I like to believe that a careful re-wording of the helpfile might encourage those one or two sentences that often get missed to be more often heeded.   

       Efforts to cut down on static, when effective, are much appreciated in my mind.
ye_river_xiv, Oct 13 2009
  
      
[annotate]
  


 

back: main index

business  computer  culture  fashion  food  halfbakery  home  other  product  public  science  sport  vehicle