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According to the news, Britain will observe a two minute silence on the 7th of July to commemorate the first anniversary of the London tube bombings.
I propose that we should also mark the 22nd of July - the date Jean Charles de Menezes was murdered by uncontrolled policy-crazed loose-cannon fragments
of the armed idiot police force. The reenactment might take the form of an ongoing micro-performance between members of the public, during the day, in as overtheatrical a style as the pointless shoot to kill policy was cooked up in the first place. Some members of the public might want to wear backpacks and look innocent, or Brazilian, or both. Other members of the public might want to dress up as plain-clothes police*. At random moments, a 'Brazilian' might be chased briefly by a 'armed police' person, and with no reasonable opportunity to evaluate the situation, the 'armed police' person shouts 'bang' seven times, and once in the shoulder. Immediately after this, all the facts should become completely confused and lost. This goes on all day, at random.
* can you get arrested for impersonating a plain-clothes policeman?
Wikipedia: Jean Charles de Menezes
http://en.wikipedia..._Charles_de_Menezes
Details. [jutta, May 18 2006]
I am effing terrified.
http://www.iamfuckingterrified.com/why
The antidote to 'www.werenotafraid.com' [gnomethang, May 20 2006]
Bruce Schneier on shoot-to-kill
http://www.schneier.../shoot-to-kill.html
British cops apparently never heard of a dead-man switch. [jutta, May 23 2006]
[link]
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He is suggesting that we re-enact the shooting of an innocent civilian the day after the failed London tube bombings, but in essence he is just complaining about it. This is obviously a rant because of lines such as: |
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//murdered by uncontrolled policy-crazed loose-cannon fragments of the armed idiot police force.// |
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//in as overtheatrical a style as the pointless shoot to kill policy was cooked up in the first place.// |
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It was a terrible mistake, but heads have rolled so move on. |
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You've proven that Ian is upset about having an innocent person shot by the police. But someone can feel strongly about something and still suggest what turns out to be an idea. |
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If you think it doesn't amount to anything, mark it for deletion using the long form - the short form doesn't get found by the automatic search, and leaves me and others to guess whether you did or didn't mean it. |
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I think the fishbones tell the story. |
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If we're going to commemorate nutjobs blowing up bits of the infrastructure, then we might as well commemorate some other loonies chasing and gunning down an innocent man. |
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[Edit] Let me rephrase that - I want us to remember to remain calm and considered, no matter what is going on around us. I think the Menezes incident was likely a case of people getting caught-up in the post bombing hysteria that went about the place. I want us to remember that we should all try to keep our heads about us, when all around us are loosing theirs. |
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In fact, the second is a more fitting, and far more useful thing for us to remember as a society. |
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//If we're going to commemorate nutjobs blowing up bits of the infrastructure//I suggest November 5th as a good date. |
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I'm accustomed to Civil War reenactors, and WW2 reenactors. How about we reenact the the Crash of '04? Hundreds of persons all over the world can attempt to log in for days. |
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More of a rant than an idea. Yes it was a
mistake. Yes it was a terrible mistake.
But reports say he ran from the police
when they repeatedly told him to stop. |
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I'm in no way supporting or defending
what happened, but put yourself into
the shoes of those police officers for 1
minute .. you've just had a god-awful
tragedy occur in London, god knows
how many families are devastated, how
many are dead, scarred for life, or
blown to bits .. and suddenly a
backpacked foreigner is running
towards a tube train, knowingly
ignoring police. If you don't make a
split-second decision, the next pile of
bodies could include your wife, sister,
brother,
neighbour .. I hate to say it, but if I had
been that officer, I reckon I would have
fired too. |
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Again, yes it was a tragedy, a horrible
thing to happen. But what the guy did
wasn't what I'd call 'smart'. If police are
aiming and shouting at me, I'd stand
stock-still. That's just common sense. |
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Whatever your opinion, I agree
[Germanicus], heads have rolled, so
move on. |
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Yeah. In my opinion, this was too recent an event to be lampooned like this. |
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"But reports say he ran from the police when they repeatedly told him to stop." |
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Yes, reports said that (not true). Reports also said that he was wearing winter clothing in the summer (not true), a back pack (not true), a belt with wires coming out (not true), and that he jumped the ticket barrier (not true). |
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And if we just all keep repeating that, maybe it'll cover up the basic fact - that this guy on his way to work behaved no differently you or I would before he was pinned down and shot. |
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[jutta] You've bracketed alot of '(not
true)'s there. I don't know enough about
the event to get into any dispute about
it, but the media constantly garble
everything, so who is to know what is
true unless you were actually there? |
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I do find it very difficult to believe that
the guy was just shot for "doing what
you or I would do on our way to work" ..
something must have made the police
suspicious. As incapable as I believe
them to be, I don't think the police just
went out and shot someone. |
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oh, dear! another gullible twit hits the dust! |
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yeah, I admit it, I believed at first that where there's smoke... |
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// but heads have rolled ...//
Which heads, exactly? (apart from the obvious).
p.s. ...//so move on.// You sound like Mr Bliar. |
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//who suffered a fate you will not// How can you be so sure? |
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Depends on what country I'm in, I guess. Then again, the linked picture doesn't look very middle eastern to me (as that's even a requirement to be a suicide bomber in the first place). |
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Hmm. I don't get what this is about. |
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Maybe there should be a manditory cooling off period before any hike of security precautions, so no one has to go around "feeling all protected". |
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It is tragic when the police make fatal mistakes like this, but it is not surprising: the police are only human, and are bound to make mistakes from time to time. |
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We've had our own unpleasant incidents in NY: Abner Louima, brutally sodomized by an out-of-control arresting officer; Desmond Robinson, an undercover officer shot by a uniformed officer as he tried to make an arrest; Amadou Diallo, gunned down in a hail of 41 bullets, after trying to show officers his wallet. |
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What matters to us is how the government responds after these incidents. Do they cover it up, or pretend that nothing was wrong, or hold a full investigation, or put officers on trial and let justice run its course, or change police procedures to try and avoid similar occurrences happening in future? |
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If you're going to re-enact this scene, then I would suggest doing in police training academies, and incorporate it into courses on how to arrest dangerous terrorists without necessarily blowing their heads off. |
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But I still give this a +. Sure it's a rant and not really an idea (well, a bit but not much) and it smells like a let's all to me but the sentiment behind it is the kind of feeling we all share, we of sound mind. |
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[drcurry]//only human, and are bound to make mistakes from time to time//
//brutally sodomized// |
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(thinks back to the last time I've made this "mistake") Nope, can't remember doing it once. |
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I agree with your later point about needing to change the system when something like this happens, but I disagree with writing grossly inhumane conduct off as a simple mistake. The best way I know of to enact systemic change is outrage by the citizenry. |
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The mistake there being hiring someone who turned out to be mentally unstable, to be a police officer. This is a system we're talking about, not just individuals. Our systems need to be fault tolerant, and allow for and correct failures, not simply assuming perfect components and perfect operation. |
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there's too much dignity and not enough passion these days... |
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[po] You're entitled to your opinion. :) |
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//Just mourn the horrible death of an innocent man.// |
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But he is not suggesting that, if he suggested a further 1 minutes silence for him then I may have bunned it, but the actual idea is a rant. As for heads rolling, no-one has actually been sacked, but the police force (and indeed Sir Ian Blair) has been investigated. |
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Yes, it was wrong, but it's been investiged, it was a one off and that is enough for me. |
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EDIT: For the record I am not sure whether the police had enough reason to be that suspicious of him, I would like to believe they wouldn't shoot for no reason, but I don't actually know the whole story. |
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I agree with skinflaps... I lived through
thirty years of violence - so why draw the
line at this one particular death, tragic
though it was? Why not re-enact the
Hunger Strike, for example, or Bloody
Sunday etc etc? If Ian feels strongly
enough about this idea, he should
organise his own re-enactment, and get
on with it. I don't really think the Bakery is
the place for it. Come on Ian just delete it
yourself. |
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...whilst outside the Tube station, a mock media frenzy has camera crews interviewing bystanders who witnessed only part of the incident and extrapolate scenes they couldn't possibly have seen, fuelling even more pointless speculation
Sorry, Ian, I don't get this one - I don't know how long the fuse on a suicide bomber's waistcoat/backpack is, but I have enormous sympathy both for the officers and Mr Menezes. Remember, radios don't work too well underground - would you have made the right decision, based on what you could see at that moment?
Bun/fishbone withheld. |
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according to the reports, he wasn't carrying a backpack or wearing heavy clothes. |
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But what's incontrovertible is that he was, the whole time, looking a bit foreign. |
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[BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM...oh, um, sorry, Calum. I thought I heard ticking. Calum?] |
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Btw, the subway police here have surreptitious Geiger counters, and discreetly stop people who set them off. I'm wondering if they also have (or should have) explosives sniffers. |
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This is really turning into a debate about the incident itself, which doesn't really belong here. Taking the idea in all seriousness, if I were the family of the unfortunate Mr de Menezes then I wouldn't want his death portrayed in such a fashion so I am compelled to fishbone this. |
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What the hell has a minute of silence ever achieved anyway? "Hey, stop and think about it for a minute and then you can go back to not feeling guilty for something that wasn't your fault." Bah. Sorry, rant. |
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//there's too much dignity and not enough passion these days// |
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Honestly, though, I didn't know the hb was a political discussion forum. Hell, why not have a day of commemoration for Richard Jewel? You know, the guy who reported an attempted bombing and had his life destroyed by being made a prime suspect when all he did was his civic duty? Hell, let's have reenactments of the Rodney King beating, and all of the other mistakes that have happened in the past. I see this as either a rant or a very bad joke. GET OVER IT!!! |
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A joke, hardly (unless I am very much mistaken). This is a testament to what can happen when fear causes rational decision making to be replaced with paranoia and rash choices. |
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I can't say that I agree with your suggestion to "GET OVER IT!!!" [21]. I apologise for stooping to quotation but, as George Santayana said "Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." |
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Tasteless perhaps, but is it any more so than the other great British tradition of setting off miniature explosions (fireworks) and burning effigies on November 5th? |
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It's much easier for passion to be misplaced and misused than for dignity [po]. |
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I'm wondering. What seperates a rant from an idea? I was going to consult the help file but rant isn't listed as an MFD criteria (have I just been imagining that the whole time [jutta]?) I presumed the line was drawn when the rant took precedence over the idea (idea in this case being a performance art piece to commemorate a tragic event). That [Ian] chose to use emotive language to justify why this should be implemented proves nothing. Had this been an idea for a new spellchecker where that of Microsoft Word was brought up and described as "Complete bollocks. The person who invented it should be flayed" people would think nothing of it, but because such words is used in the context of real life events it becomes considered a rant. |
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A bit of light relief, then (please see link). |
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What started out as "rant" is now more diplomatically called "advocacy". It's a gradual thing - hard to give absolute criteria. If you want to be literal, it's none of the things listed; but if other people start using it a lot, we'll add "reenacting some event X" to the list.
Shrugs, waves hands. |
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Safe version:
<shouts> Stop! In the name of the plain clothes I am wearing, I command you to stop! Let the record show that you are not stopping! Therefore, bang bang bang bang bang bang bang ! |
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Wouldn't it make more sense, rather than vilifying the police who were doing what they thought was their job, to make a comment about the government and senior police figures who ordered a "shoot to kill" policy? |
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//Wouldn't it make more sense, rather than vilifying the police who were doing what they thought was their job, to make a comment about the government and senior police figures who ordered a "shoot to kill" policy?// |
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The only type of police policy I've heard of is "shoot to stop". Although shooting someone center-of-mass is often fatal, it is also the most effective way of stopping someone. Shooting a gun out of a criminal's hands is a Hollywood concept, not a real one. If a cop would be unjustified in killing someone, the cop would be unjustified in shooting them. |
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I don't know exactly what transpired on 22/7. Nor, I suspect, does anyone here. Whether or not the cops acted reasonably in this particular case, an announced policy of never shooting suspects would be an open invitation to suicide bombers to ply their craft without risk of being stopped prematurely. |
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It's another fence of posts. |
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