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If the US would require everone over the age of 21 to be armed at all times, we would have a very polite society.(After the initial adjustment period) A formula could be developed to level the playing field in the same way a handicap levels the field in golf. For instance, people of advancing age, say
70and over, would be allowed to carry anything they can lift and fire, but healthy 21 year olds might be restricted to a single-shot .22. Obviously, this idea needs refining, but it is, after all, halfbaked.
A Basis for Ethics
http://www.halfbake...04,2-11500-,00.html
Debate over the foundations of ethical theory. [Scott_D, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Supply and Demand
http://www.halfbake...pply_20and_20Demand
Debate about economic theory. [Scott_D, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Critiques of Libertarianism
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html
Background reading [hippo, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Port Arthur Massacre
http://crimelibrary...l/bryant/index.htm.
Suddenly one Sunday.... [Alcin, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
What the anti-gunners want to deny!!!!
http://www.nralive.com/index2.cfm
This is what the mass media chooses to not tell you. [HKUSP9, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Texas Gun Law
http://www.latimes....003/t000093745.html
The record to date, problems with background checks. [Scott_D, Jun 27 2000]
Pierre Joris's Eric Mottram home page.
http://www.albany.edu/mottram/
[Scott_D, Jun 27 2000]
Further Gun Control Discussion on the Halfbakery
http://www.halfbake...a/Gunless_20America
[Lemon, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Lewis for Beretta.
http://www.art-ww1....e/038text.html#back
now sod off. [lewisgirl, Jun 27 2000, last modified Oct 04 2004]
The Prince
http://www.undergro...nce.html#para%20123
An excerpt from the book found on the web. [LoriZ, Jan 05 2002, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Frederick the Great's rebuttal of the above linked text.
http://www.undergro...antimac.html#chap12
"Machiavel's <I>The Prince</I> is to ethics what the work of Spinoza is to faith." [LoriZ, Jan 05 2002, last modified Oct 04 2004]
Texas Gun Law
http://www.latimes....003/t000093745.html
The record to date, problems with background checks. [Scott_D, Oct 04 2004]
Pierre Joris's Eric Mottram home page.
http://www.albany.edu/mottram/
[Scott_D, Oct 04 2004]
Short name, e.g., Bob's Coffee
Destination URL.
E.g., http://www.coffee.com/
Description (displayed with the short name and URL.)
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Fascinating. But, how can we, in good conscience, leave the under-21 segment of our population out of this? Perhaps requiring that Under- 21ers carry Supersoakers with them at all times... or, I always thought that the Tennis Ball-in-the-Tube Sock , a'la Homey the Clown, was a humourously effective close-range weapon. |
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I agree with the age problem. If you're over 18, you can join the army, you can vote, you can leave home, etc., so you should be required to carry a gun too. 12-17 year olds can carry edged weapons (sabers, foils maybe). 6-11 year olds should be required to carry a club or sap, and under-6-year-olds should have contact poison on their fingernails (or a grenade in their diapers). |
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Hey, Wiml, there's humor potential in the kid with a grenade in his diapers idea. He angrily reaches down in the back of his diapers to reveal... A GRENADE!!! Hopefully a clean one...( it may discourage the kid from getting potty trained)- or, anyone knowing a kid is packin' a grenade in there( some kids already smell like "somethin's gone off") can grab the grenade and use it in an emergency. Married couples, having large families, just for the arms advantage.... |
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I hate to say it, njay, but you're completely nuts. |
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Surely banning all firearms is a better idea? Just compare the number of shootings in the US to those in the UK... |
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I agree with Mr TheRich. The only safe solution is to ban any form of armed weapon. Making them available to everyone mearly escalates the level of violence. |
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....and just watch the news from UK and OZ where guns are banned. They now have to merely stab and bludgeon each other to death. Criminals will be criminals, always and everywhere. I like the idea of everyone carrying a weapon, with a responsible attitude.The anti-gun crowd will rant and rave, until four days after all guns are removed, another Hitler arises in their hometown. Then THEY will want guns back, but it will be too late, they will have to settle for a seat in a gas chamber... Nuff said! |
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Uh-oh. I could see the way this conversation was heading. |
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If I was going to join in, I''d say that I'd much rather be in a crowded retaurant when a nutter goes bezerk with a baseball bat, than when one goes bezerk with an Uzi. |
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But I'm not going to join in, so I won't say that. |
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Maybe you cant diminish people criminal tendencies by stopping them from having guns, but that's no excuse for giving people access to them. |
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My wife and I have resolved our security concerns by hiring Charlton Heston to stand outside our home dressed as Moses, threatening to have God throw lightning bolts at loiterers. |
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I lived in Jacksonville Fl. for a couple of years, where at that time it was a simple matter for a non-felon to obtain a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and I have heard that it cut the number of firearm fatalities considerably - the primary victims of murder are now, as ever, the usual guy cheating with another guys wife or the guy who ripped somebody off, and of course the police and the unsuspecting tourists whom the strong-arm artists know to be unarmed - anyone else is too risky. |
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This is not as simple an issue as most people seem to think it is. In Australia we have very restrictive laws about who has guns and what types of guns and to be honest we haven't seen many Hitlers down here taking over towns. Personally that doesn't seem like a realistic problem - that's why we maintain a standing army (and its not a very big one). |
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However, the idea that making guns illegal will sovle the problem is also ludicrous. We still have shootings in Australia by people who have obtained guns illegaly. Our laws have just been revised to be some of the toughest in the world, but there are more illegal guns on the street than ever before. Never forget that only law abiding people obey the law. Do some checking to see how many laws the various shooters in the US broke when aquiring their weapons. |
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Interesting, I just answered a vote.com survey; one question was, should all firearms be registered? |
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I expanded on this in the "comments" section at the end of the survey, and the gist was this: surveillance technology will be ubiquitous, and not just images -- scent patterns, height/weight/gait/gestures/vocal patterns, and probably others -- will be recorded. Everywhere. So anyone using a firearm will most definitely be identified and brought to justice; therefore there's no reason for registration. |
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Sure it'll help in the short term, but at the expense of the Constitution. |
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i'm not going to get into the banning vs keeping/concealing firearms. what i am going to say is that should a hitler come to power i am armed with the knowledge that a few bags of fertilizer and some diesel fuel will blow the shit out of a big building (say a government center?) and that a couple of pieces of pvc and some hairspray can throw alot more than a potato. |
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A further observation I failed to mention in my previous posting, is that the ease of obtaining a concealed permit in Fla. meant that many people did carry concealed handguns, but only a practiced eye can discern who is and who isn't - this means that criminals tend to assume you are armed, even if you are not - and most seem to prefer not to play this form of Russian Roulette. |
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Anti-gunners scare me. Not ONE of them has EVER explained to me just how banning firearms can be called "constitutional". Elected officals take an oath to uphold the constitution, yet anti-gun laws are passed. Every time a new anti gun law is passed, my RIGHT to keep and bear arms is infringed upon. The right to arms is supposed to be an insurance policy against "hitlers", yet the anti-gunners seem to not want the American people to know this.I have a name for anti-gunners--GESTAPO. Wake up folks. The second amendment is there for a reason. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be there. Always beware when your government wants to take something from you. |
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The second ammendment to the Constitution consists of two clauses, the first, an independent clause, and the second, a dependent clause - meaning that the meaning of the second clause is dependent on the first. The was a very specific rationale behind this ammendment: at the time, state armies, like Great Britains, consisted of proffesional regular soldiers augumented by mercenary troops. The Continental Congress decided, either through design and necessity, to create the Continental army on the "Militia" principle. A militia, unlike a regular, professional army, is community based, meaning that each unit consisted of part time soldiers organized in local units, each unit from the same, specific local area. A regular army, by contrast, consists of units whose personel may be drawn from widely seperated communities. The rationale behind the militia style army, was that it was considered more difficult to subvert, and that it would be harder to induce local soldiery to fire on their own friends, family and neighbors - and thus a check against tyranny. This was similar to early fuedalism, and this structure was largely maintained through the civil war, and even through the WWI and WWII until today, in the form of local National guard and reserve units - in contrast to modern private "militias" who operate without Congressional charter or regulation and are little more than proffesional armies of the type that transformed European Fuedalism into the type of tyranny that the founding fathers sought to mediate with the militia style organization to begin with. |
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One could argue that in the absence of local militia style organization, the right of the individual citizen to bear arms compensates for the presence of a profesional army, and serves as a continuing check against tyranny. There is little to support this, although the Kent State incident, and more recently, the Waco incident, among others, have not been resolved to everyones satisfaction. |
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Comprehensive gun control, would neccesarily have to begin with those who are barred from gun ownership, i.e, convicted felons, and in realistic terms, criminals. This is the NRA's argument, and it is a sound one, it making no sense to deprive a person of the reasonable right to self defence in a society where gun ownership is ubiquitous, even leaving the possibility of tyranny aside. |
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For their part, gun owners and the NRA have done little to help resolve the situation: comprehensive firearms safety training, and a real effort to keep firearms out of the hands of unsupervised children and criminals by keeping them safely locked up would be a step in the right direction, and conformity to Federal, State and local firearms dealers would also help - too often, free market considerations and profit motives serve to undermine common sense. All of this is to say that through a paranoid reaction, the NRA, and gun owners have undermined their own argument by failing to address the very real problem of firearm violence, and demand for Government regulation of firearm prodution and/or ownership will eventually be the result. A recent poll of teenagers reveals that they are increasingly in favor of gun control, tired, one suspects, having to live with firearm violence on a daily basis. Legalistic jargon, however well constructed cannot address their very real fears, or replace those who have been taken from their families. |
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I myself was raised around firearms, and have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds, through a variety of weapons - I always said that "I believe in gun control - ya gotta use both hands". This attempt at humor aside, the best firearm safety device is the mind of the gun owner, and a culture in which firearms are a sign of "manliness", idiots are certain to abound - Like motor vehicles, which are regulated and liscenced, firearms have been know to give one an inflated sense of personal power. I've personally known at least two persons who shot their best friends while showing off - one fatally, the other non-fatal by the slimmest chance,and I cannot count the number of weapons stolen - while I know of one friend who had to use a firearm to defend himself and his family. Firearm culture must be willing and able to extend social controls and mediate cultural mythology toward a safer attitude toward firearms if they are not to undermine the freedoms they are trying to defend. |
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Hey Scott---Whose side ya on anyway? |
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Mine. Modern politics has taken on a divisive tone that I feel is not condusive to effective solutions. In this case, looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life is not my idea of fun - my stepfather was like this, and I decided a long time ago, I didn't want to live that way. On the other hand, there are no guarantees in life, and there will awlaws be those who price their ideals, needs, etc, above my life, and I like the idea of keeping my options open. I try to do this in respect to firearms, by not contributing to the negative statistics: I don't fool around with them, they are tools, not toys, and while there are certain times when I may carry one, particularly where the possibility of carjacking is high, in general, I avoid situations where self defence might be called for. Koersh, for example, largely created the situation he found himself in, and while the ATF might might have overreacted, this, this is, to some extent, understandable. I remember remarking to a friend, when it become clear that Koresh was not going to surrender - that "this thing is going to end badly" - and I was right. Abandoning the political and social process in favor of violent, anarchic paranoid extremes is certain to lead to extreme solutions. |
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In general, the uncompromising attitude of both sides of this, and other issues, prevents a dialogue that addresses these issues in the ways that our founding fathers tried to promote. As a result, abortion, for example, is debated in terms of good vs. evil, and birth control, the mature use of which could significantly reduce the abortion rate, is attacked with the same fervor as abortion itself. In gun control, NRA advocates have taken a libertarian stand that I find odious - libertarians in my opinion, are little better than anarchists from a moral standpoint and I cannot support a dogma that places purity of principle above human life as quotidian reality. Nor can I countenece the notion that self criticism is treachery - this idea has led to the current state of affairs, i.e, shallow defence of flawed ideas on both sides of the issues. Rush Limbaugh, constantly berates liberals for their "lockstep" attitudes, and yet will not tolerate any dissention from his veiwpoint, and harshly attacks anyone who steps out of line to examine conservative dogma from an objective perspective - he is, perhaps, the most dangerous man in America, as his raving passes for logic and reason, and his influence has reduced conservative thought to little more than psychopathic propoganda - trust me; there is nothing more dangerous than an idiologue. If calling for personal responsibility is interpreted as betrayal of some "side", there is no moral ideal to be upheld here. |
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The above links are to more thought in this vein, and even if you don't agree, please consider that this is based on observation and experience, not just on abstract theories - it might help you to wrap your mind around some of the "inconsistencies". |
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Our entire Government, including the Constitution, is predicated on the Free Market philosophy and observations of Adam Smith. The system of "checks and balances" are a sort of free market solution to politics, the theory being that monopoly is always bad, whether political or economic. By pitting the various branches of Government "against each other", in a manner of speaking, the founding fathers hoped that competing interests would result in a more balanced political system, as compromise would be the only way to reach a solution. The result, is that representitive Democracy does not work very efficiently, but it is very difficult to entirely subvert, and in fact the chief goal of both our form of Government and our economic system, is to prevent the political-economy from reaching it's logical conclusion - tyranny is the mostly inevitable result. By maintaining a constant state of flux, opportunity is created and progress is given a chance to occur. |
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I do not agree with a requirement for carrying a firearm, but I do not neccessarily disagree with allowing suitably trained and registered gun owners permits to carry concealed weapons - this provides a "balance of power" between criminals and law abiding citizens. As noted above in an earlier annotation, this creates a situation in which criminals are no longer able to act with utter impunity, as no-one is sure who is armed and who isn't. I believe this is consistent with the spirit of the Constitution, if not necessarily the letter - embodying the self regulatory features that were the intent of the founding fathers. |
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Scott--Please do the rest of free America a favor and go sniff some more glue. What part of "Shall NOT be infringed", do you not understand? You like to think that you have the command of many multi-syllabic words, but sadly fail to correctly interpret one small phrase. |
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It's amazing how quickly and predictably a little joke will spiral into the same old arguments. (To be sure, Scott's position is surprisingly neutral.) |
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Maybe I should start an idea: "Mandatory Abortion". |
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Hey EGNOR----I like you.I really do. I have read many of your comments and responses and agree with many of them. But on the issue of gun control there can be NO mistake!! The anti's want me ( a law abiding citizen!!!), to lose my right to keep and bear arms. This I will FIGHT against.
And for those who have lost the ability to read and understand plain English---The 2nd amendment is a guarantee to all who wish to keep their freedom,
that they shall not have to fight empty handed.
Just when did Americans forget that it is NOT the elected official that is the boss,but rather the people that cast the votes that are in charge?
Wake up America,open your eyes,shut off the alarm and let your feet hit the floor! It is not hard to understand---"anti gunner" is a term for someone who will take great pains to take away your constitutional RIGHT( note that I did NOT say privilege!!!!),to keep and bear arms. I leave it up to the reader ---what do you call a person that would do such a thing?? Facist? Nazi? How about "dictator"?
Sound too harsh? Think about Hitler and how he bragged about his policy of gun control. How long after was it before he started to throw MILLIONS OF PEOPLE into furnaces? I leave it to you read about in the history books. |
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Does Godwin's Law only work in Usenet? |
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Linguistically, the entire amendment is a compund phrase, and one cannot simply single out the parts one likes, and ignore the rest, without altering the meaning and rendering interpretation arbitrary. |
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Philosophically, rights are dependent on accompanying obligations and responsibilities, otherwise you might as well promote anarchy as morality. |
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Realistically, rights are only those things that can be enforced, and alaw that cannot or will not be enforced ceases, technically, to be a right. Evading the responsibility that accompany the right to bear arms, can only erode the political and social support for that particular right. The second ammendment was designed to preserve liberty, not to make people prisoners in their own homes. |
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Although I believe that the logistics involved in confiscating firearms render your fears in this respect mostly moot, and I do not personally support such measures, I feel the biggest threat to this particular liberty comes from the firearm owning community itself, through irresponsibility, and it is to this community I address myself. |
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The Axis during WWII didn't seem to have much trouble rounding up guns, especially when they had all those wonderful lists of gun owners from the registrations... |
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Good point SC!! Scott falls into a class of people that argue for the sake of argument, mostly using large words to say nearly nothing. His ignorance of the subject at hand is embarrassing. Hopefully he will be ignored in future so that other people can debate the issue.
Note to Scott: "Realistically, rights are only those things that can be enforced, and alaw that cannot or will not be enforced ceases, technically, to be a right."{quote taken from his own entry---typos included.} This is SICK thinking and you need to talk to a doctor fast!!! Even you have the right to continue living. The (6?), million Jews murdered by Hitler had the right to life also! But by your thinking, they lost that right the moment they lost their weapons!! After all, they lost their ability to say "NO" and enforce it.
A right does not cease to be a right merely because it becomes "unenforcable". A law is something entirely different. You would do well to learn the difference before you trip over your tongue in public once again. |
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You are speaking of rights in an abstract, philosophical sense, I'm talking about rights in a legal sense - what you can reasonably demand, and expect to get. The "right" of the Jews to live, being un-enforcable at that time, meant that that "right" ceased to have any meaning. You can argue that they had the moral right regardless, but they're still dead - it's not a magic wand. And you still have not explained you're creatively illiterate interpretation of the second ammendment to me - you're arguing custom, appearently, which is one leg of the law, and often considered a valid argument, but custom often changes - nobody ever complained about firearm ownership until the statistical probability of being killed by one rose so dramatically. Gun control can thus be seen as those people who feel that it's their "right" not to be shot at by people with no respect for anybodies "rights" - usually with a gun stolen from some "American Hero", like yourself. Misguided, perhaps, but understandable. I suggest that you watch too much TV - Go argue with a 240 gr. hollowpoint about your "rights" homey. |
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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. |
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That's a comma after the word "State", HK, not a period. |
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Also: technically, they call it "being deprived of ones rights" - meaning that this right has been taken from you - justly or no. |
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First of all Scott, do me one small favor will ya? NEVER call me "Homey" again. If you do that one small favor I Promise never to either call you "JERK" or point out how many misspelled words you post in your annotations.
Secondly: It is highly unlikely anyone would be able to steal any of my collection due to the fact that it is locked up in a safe the size of Texas. With the exception of the sidearm I choose to carry on any given day, of course.
Also,a 240 gr.hollowpoint bullet could indeed ruin a guys day. It is also a little on the oddball side weight wise. Considering that most rifle bullets in this weight class are either round nose or of the spitzer type, I can only conclude that you are referring to a bullet fired from a handgun---lets say something around the 41 Remington magnum or larger. Kind of a big gun for someone to use in a mugging don't you think?
My position on the whole big deal of gun control is this: Law abiding citizens of The United States of America have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. If the anti-gunners don't like it, tough. They can go sit on a stick. The passing of anti-gun laws is illegal and unconstitutional. Those who willingly violate their oath of office in the passing of such laws should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
If an individual decides not to exercise a particular right, it is fine by me. It is when that person or group of persons tries to take that freedom from me that I become offended and oppressed.
Once again, I say to those who would take my guns from me---What part of "shall not be infringed",do you not understand. It won't be long before you hear another familiar phrase used by those who love freedom:
"Don't Tread On Me" |
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My, we certainly have the fetish don't we. At the risk of encouraging you further, you have no difficulty picking apart my grammer, but cannot seem to comprehend the complexities implied in the wording of the Second Ammendment. Return when you have more to back up your argument, I for one am growing tired of repeating myself. If you use these deadly tools responsibly, good for you - I long ago lost patience with idiots waving guns, and now simply leave, lest I become tempted to "accidently" start breaking fingers. |
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p.s. HK, ya misspelled "say", although I had no great difficulty in interpreting your meaning. I hunt with a pistol, and large, slow slugs cut the brush better without deflecting, although I don't use hollowpoints for this purpose. I have also lost much of my youthful fascination with guns, the mind is weapon of far less crudity, properly developed, and firearms make a poor substitute. |
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Then again, one has the choice to "translate" the 2nd amendment using the literal definitions of the words used to compose it. There is no "might not" or "should not" anywhere in the wording.
"shall not" is,however. Nothing is "implied" anywhere.
HK wonders why Scott fails to notice this.
btw,Scott---Have you E-mailed Bubba his definition of the word "is" yet? |
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Consider the following HK: |
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No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house |
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No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime |
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No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State |
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the Vice President shall become President. |
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No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect |
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If no one had arms, we couldn't shoot each other |
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Personally I think your Second Ammendment should be ammended to; |
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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Pillow Cases stuffed with feathers, shall not be infringed. |
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How many people a year will be mugged/assaulted/killed with that HKUSP9? Hmm? |
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Well now there goes the neighborhood, Scott.
Had ta go and invite the anti-chri----I mean the anti-gunners didn't you. Oh well.
Welcome to the rumpus room folks.
To AfroAssult: Yeah thats true. Also, if we had no knives we could not stab each other---no bows and no one is killed by arrows and blah - blah - blah.
To Alcin: Muggers, murderers and just plain bad people will use just about anything as a weapon. Bats, tire irons, golf clubs, knives, poisons and even cooking utensils have been used to kill. Do a little research, Alcin. You will find that "gun crime" (as opposed to crimes commited by actual human beings that need to be held accountable for their behavior), is falling in EVERY state that has passed a "Shall issue" concealed carry law.(This is a FACT that drives anti-gunners absolutely crazy!)
Banning firearms will do nothing to discourage a broke crack addict from mugging anybody, but it would deprive law abiding citizens an effective means of defending themselves. Also, a pillowcase stuffed with feathers is commonly known as a "pillow". I know this type of secret squirrel stuff so just trust me on this one, ok?
P.S to Scott: Come on! That last rebuttal was just plain moronic and you know it. To be quite honest, I have come to expect better from you. I know you might have become stuck by your ears--but do at least TRY to unwedge your head from its confining entrapment....mmmm k? |
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And if you believe that B is even possible, you're deluded. People deride the saying as a 'redneck NRA joke' or something, but it is still true that if you make guns illegal, only people who break laws will have them. Drugs easily make their way into the country, outlawing guns will just give the same smugglers something else to profit on, while depriving honest people of the means to defend themselves. |
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Criminals know that at least some people tend to have guns and will use them to protect themselves, which makes them somewhat more cirucmspect about just randomly breaking into homes or assaulting people. If it was known that nobody who obeyed the law had a gun, crime would skyrocket. |
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HK, your'e really missing the point here, I hope you shoot straighter than this. If you go back to the top of this idea, you'll find that I disagree with a requirement to carry a concealed weapon, although I tenatively agree with a properly trained private citizen, being given a license to carry a properly registered concealed handgun, should they feel need for it. |
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To reiterate, this was the law in the part in Fla, I lived, and it did have the effect of reducing armed violence. Az. used to have a similar law, I don't know if they still do, with the qualification that if you were strapped and observed an armed crime being commited, and did nothing to stop it, you could be charged as an accessory. Registration, training, etc. is I believe neccessary in this case, since the weapons will presumably be being used in populated areas - police must undergo training for the same reason. This training could be handled by the NRA itself, and the weapon registered with the local police, against the eventuality that that weapon may be used in a crime. You can argue with that last part, but training, I believe is the minimum neccessary to satisfy both the Constitution and common sense. At no point did I even mention registration of firearms kept at home, which is a separate subject. |
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I am deeply disturbed by your inability to see the absurdity of selective interpretation of the Constitution in this regard, the lines in my last posting are sentences chosen more or less at random from the remainder of the Constitution, ala, NRA, Second Ammendment, style - and the last one is exactly analogous to your "interpretation" of the Second Ammendment. You asked someone to "explain" to you "just how banning firearms can be called 'constitutional' " and I have done so, the fact that you don't like it notwithstanding - it does not constitute a valid argument. |
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The Second Ammendment is considered one of the more ambiguous ammendments to the Constitution, and requires a deeper understanding of the context from which it emerged. |
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The rest of my argument consists of questioning whether irresponsible behavior of gun owners, does not in fact, contribute impetus to the gun-control movement. You respond that the Constitution "Gurantees" this "right" no matter how irresponsibly they may behave, "cause the Constitution says so", or some such - I'm here to tell you it ain't so. We currently enjoy a loose interpretation of the second ammendment, but there are plenty of valid arguments for more restrictive interpretations - it's a matter for the Supreme Court, who can tell the difference between a comma (,) and a period (.), and are not overly confused by the terms "militia" or "well regulated". In fact, in the strictest interpretation, one might construe that in the absence of a "well regulated militia", the right to bear arms is abrogated (look it up). |
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That you take joy in taunting the "opposition", many of whom may have suffered violence at the point of a gun, is obvious, and wins you no support, and your Constitutional arguments leave you looking like an illiterate idiot. You're wasting your breath with me, you've all but threatened to shoot me for disagreeing with you, and in short, you yourself are a walking, talking advertisement for gun control. |
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I suggest it you who are arguing for arguments sake - I'm a poor good typist, and don't always take the time to look words up, here in the halfbakery, my MS word program is corrupted, and unusable, and hence I have no spellchecker available- mea culpa - consequently my posings are rough draft quality - but if all you can do is make fun of my spelling, call me names, complain about having to read "big words", and having your attention span strained, I suggest you either run for office, or go circle jerk with the Libertarians. I didn't "invite" anybody else into this discussion, as far as I know, it's open to members of this site, most of whom have been here longer than you - you are entitled to your opinion, as are all the members of this site - but if you're going to try to make legal arguments, you better seek firmer ground. |
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The fact that I, along with millions of Americans, still own firearms and have not had them confiscated by the government is proof that the second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms. If it did not, the gun grabbers would have taken them all long ago.
The fact is that "gun control" is all about taking rights away from Americans and making them a little less free. All anti gunners have the idea in their heads that it is o.k. to come into my home and steal from me. That it is O.K. to force me to register my weapons so that authorities can come to my dwelling and compell me to hand over my means of defense.
The reason the gun owners in this country have guns is because it is ILLEGAL to deprive people of their constitutional RIGHTS.
The whiny antis can't take the guns from us-so what do they do? They say "Lets ban magazines over 10 rounds", and "Lets ban the scary looking rifles".
There is not a single person on the face of the planet that has the right to take a single gun from me. A anti gun supporter hates this fact and would like to pass a law giving him such a right. This is the only way they can try to take guns away from anybody:
pass a law making it legal to commit burglary.
The thing that is really disturbing is that people are putting forth gun control as an acceptable practice!
Whatta ya mean you want to send a group of masked ninja in black clothes and body armor over to my house to break in my door, throw grenades in my living room and wave mp5 sub-machine guns at me all because you feel the need to take MY guns from me? Sound crazy? Got news for ya folks--thats exactly how the anti-gunners will operate. Ask any law enforcement agency. They have guys already training for just such missions.
Register a firearm?? Yeah, right. One might as well mail a key to their gun safe to the friendly folks at HCI. It amounts to the same thing.
And as for you, Scott, I have not made the suggestion that irresponsible gun owners are protected by the constitution. Those people will weed themselves out of any group calling themselves law abiding. There are already laws on the books dealing with the mentally unfit, felons, and others.
The problem with the legal system is that shockingly few cases of gun violations are ever prosecuted. When was the last time you heard of a convicted felon going back to prison for the attempted purchase of a firearm? One hears of the many sales to felons prevented in one year by the infamous NICS system---but where are the prosecutions for those attempts?
And as for dealing with the stupid and careless--what can I say? They exist and the only thing I can do about it is to be aware of my surroundings. I know that muzzle wavers are firmly told to take their guns elsewhere when discovered at my favorite range. I have even gone as far as to relieve one such idiot of his weapon and escorting him to his car. And you know what?? The round of applause I earned from the 10 or 12 off duty police officers I feel was well earned.
Me as a walking talking advert for gun control? Hardly. But I do advertise that taking responsibility for ones own safety and behavior is a good habit to get into.
P.S. I have never threatened you with violence, nor have I implied that I wished you harm, Scott. You should try to tone down your over active imagination a little bit. |
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A commendable debate. Criminal intent, Moral Turpitude, Fraticide, Homicide, Suicide, Self-Protection, Policing, War, Hunting, Plinking, Competitive Target Shooting, Collecting. From the Worst reasons to the most justifiable, Guns are in supply and demand. From the unborn child to the elderly victim having been killed without reason. From the youth who pulled a trigger on himself or another to the couple who died together to the soldiers who lived or died there has been an interwoven tale of despair. The only good which comes of shooting another human being is indeed self-protection from bodily harm, so as to continue ones life as a contribution to society. The debate has been lively and worthy of reading. As for my personal experience, I have personally been run over by a car [perpetrator has been in prison since 1986 with 6 years to go]. Stabbed outside a store I managed[perpetrator deceased-stabbed in prison] Shot at {Found and will forever keep the .357 hollowpoint bullet} [initiator of road rage and perpetrator missed my head by less than the length of a business card and escaped off the Fairfax exit on the Santa Monica Freeway only a few months before I joined this wonderful circle of halfbaked minds]. I have shot and killed dove, pheasant, duck, squirrel, rabbit and time. I have owned rifles and shotguns [sold long ago] Pistols and Handguns [own and maintain to protect me and mine]. I have passed all the necessarry tests to legally carry and possess weapons of this nature. I had more friends die by the gun before I was even out of High School than any of us have fingers and toes. And I grew up in a very small isolated town[pop. 1,300 on a busy day] where the Sheriffs Department would arrive 45 minutes after the call. So I knew the law was in my hands as long as it was handled responsibly. I can assure you that if armed, I would honorably protect you in time of danger and can also assure you that I would run like hell should you become the danger whether or not I am armed. For those who qualify, and yes, this would require registration, concealed weapons should be permissable [read permissable, as this is a privilige and not a right-consult state and local laws-constitution or amendments notwithstanding]. Anyone who should not [again, laws] be in possession of a weapon and is-should be punished to the fullest extent of the applicable law[s]. Individuals in possession of 'Controlled substances' have gotten stiffer penalties. That is the insanity. This is not a free country. Get over it. But one must protect ones own for no one else, Government included will. Whether it concerns the debate participants, NRA, Anti-NRA, a gun-carrying thief of property or life, a thought or a Congress that is likewise bought and sold: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, You can even fool most of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time." Let us try to find a solution amongst ourselves which can truly iron out the wrinkles which are on our flag instead of merely waving our own banners. Eliminate that aspect of being part of the problem and we halfbaked minds may just be part of the solution which so terribly exists in our society. There is a time to have a hair trigger, a time to split hairs and a time to put our heads together in this most honorable of debates. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. |
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Hey thanks HKUSP9, I had no idea a Pillow Case stuffed with feathers was called a Pillow. Sort of like how you seem to have no idea how to defend the seemingly indefensible without resorting to personally attacking everyone and everything you disagree with. |
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I'm not silly enough to believe that outlawing all firearms will solve the problem, but you would have to admit that in a large number of cases if the individuals did not have access to the firearms they used, an awful lot of people would be alive today. |
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Take the Port Arthur massacre in April '96 (see link). In something like 30 minutes 35 people were killed. OK the offender could have been armed with knives etc instead of firearms, and maybe even killed a few people, but 35? I don't think so. |
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There is no easy answer to this, and I imagine that it will get debated until Jutta runs out of Hard Drive. |
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On a lighter note (which was what my last comment was supposed to be!) perhaps outlawing guns is wrong. Everyone should have one. Just outlaw the ammunition. |
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Now this is the kind of thing that BEGS to be argued, Alcin!!! Outlaw ammo??
People in here want to minimize the personal slights that are being tossed around in here and I agree that I could be a bit nicer to folks at times myself. But that last remark you made had to be intended as bait!! Lets keep the cars and ban gasoline. Keep lamps but outlaw lightbulbs.
And as for the pillow thing....what can I say? You set yourself up for that one.
A few passing thoughts: Just how loudly would you squeal if the first amendment was being attacked by organized and well funded groups of people that had the idea that the general public should not have the right to free speech??
What would you think of someone who wanted to tell you what you could and could not say?
Should we rid ourselves of that right also? How about the entire constitution??
How many freedoms do we give up before we are once again subjects that are ruled over by a "government",instead of a free nation?
These are just a few of the things that should be considered carefully before people even think about tinkering around with something that has been around for more than 200 years.
After all, look what happened with prohibition..... |
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Returning to the original idea of requiring nearly everyone to be armed - I've lived in several places with longstanding very high rates of gun ownership, and it's definitely not sufficient to cause a "polite society" (though also not sufficient to destroy one). |
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The main difficulty with arming everyone is that your average useful human being has to be working on something else most of the time, and the thugs can inevitably get the drop. One of the bad places I've lived in was servile, with thugs swaggering through; the other sullen, with productivity cut in half because it took about as many people to guard the workers as to work. |
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So, personally, I dislike guns because they're an innately smaller-pie solution: they can't prevent bad, they can at best spread it about more equitably. I'd rather reduce the total amount of bad, which is closely related in most places to nobody ever seeing a gun outside a range. |
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Now returning you to your regularly scheduled Godwin's Law and Heinlein... |
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This debate ties in with several things I've been thinking about.
The following gross generalizations are mostly about handguns, & guns for "self defense". |
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1) Shooting guns can be really fun. I target shoot several times a month and have recently joined a local pistol league.
2) In order to avoid being a liability to yourself & passers by, you have to take many technical details into account before carrying a gun. You need a fair amount of training. (Tap rack drill, keeping other people from pulling your gun out of your waist band, etc.) You also need to do a fair amount of planning (where do I store & lock my gun when I'm swimming?). All of this can be solved by anyone willing to put in about the same amount of time as they did to get a drivers license.
3) Guns aren't a defensive weapon.
You can't block with a gun, and it doesn't react by itself. The best possible situation is to see trouble and kill it before it can hurt you. This makes the most effective gun strategy to always have a gun
at hand, and be constantly on guard. If done to a degree that this is likely to actually work, it's a major leap in personal stress, and a huge stress for the people around you. It's also VERY self reinforcing. This is why I don't want to
carry a gun, I'd much rather carry a pointy stick, track shoes & a cell phone.
4) Guns aren't always the best or only solution for the problems they're good at solving. Having communities where people watch out for each other, cops that arrive in less than 40 minutes, surveillence cameras, full employment, and having everybody have medical training all help.
5)
If you're not actually going to shoot someone, the problem becomes how to
order/convince them to do what you want (GO AWAY). This is a very different
skill from being able to shoot straight. People who are good at giving orders
can frequently get what they want without using a gun. This ties into the
general defense of "don't look like a victim".
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After all this, I'm slowly coming to some conclusions. First, gun ownership should require some sort of test and owner's license. This could be like a driver's license, and it doesn't require that the guns be licensed, just whoever's carying the gun. Right now there are different types of license for different types of gun use. I'd like to simplify this. If you're trained, you can carry your gun.
Second, gun ownership currently takes more out of society than it gives back, since it brings the risk of gun theft, and certainly seems to encourage the development of self centered planning (ammo as Y2K planning). In exchange, the general population is only getting slightly more
cautious (but possibly better armed) criminals. And venison, I forgot about that. |
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My half baked solution for this is
the well organized militia, which requires medical, communications, and sewage
treatment training of it's members. Imagine a cross between americorps, ham radio field days and the national guard, where all gun owners have to put in
48 hours a year to keep their license. Then in event of national stress, we
have a group of people with useful skills, not just the ability to load & shoot a gun. The only downside I can see is that this would create a paramilitary, which is more often bad than good. Hopefully, we'd end up with a non-sexist Switzerland, where guns may be common, but they're in the hands of trained, responsible and normal citizens.
| tenhand,
Sep 20 2000, last modified Oct 30 2000 |
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Your suggestions have several things wrong with them, Tenhand. Most anti gunners would agree with you on more than one point!!!
I guess the one I would have to disagree with the most is the license thing. BAD IDEA!! A right such as the second is not a priveledge to be handed out by the government. I already have the right to keep and bear arms, and telling me I need a license is the very thing anti gunners WANT!!! Give them that, then they can tell millions of gun owners: "um...geee. I don't think we will give you a license---ever. And by the way, you need to hand over the guns you already have or go to jail."
What is wrong with the other gun owners in this place? You all say you own or have owned firearms,but sound like card carrying members of HCI. Either you are for the second or you are an anti-gunner. No room for fence sitters on this one guys and gals. If you think that there is room for that kinda thing--you desperately need to visit The N.R.A. website and see what the anti gun folks have done in other realms.
I have added a link to NRALIVE that I think might be good for those who wish to hear the truth for a change.
(please let me know if it works--this is my first attempt to link to another page.....) |
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Link works. Field level. What is the basic sticking point here, licensing? And if so, what is the true solution. Ready... aim... [BTW, I neglected to mention in previous posting of my autobiography that my Mother was the Bookkeeper for 15 years at the largest wholesaler of firearms, etc. west of the Mississippi]... Fire |
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What a persons mother has done for a living has nothing to do with the debate whatsoever. Mine was a soldier---and I wouldn't trust her with a firearm to save my soul.
And if you really want my response regarding why I disagree with you, read on:
1. A firearm is a fine defensive weapon. You have only ask any soldier who has ever seen combat in which he has been ordered to hold a position against a enemy attack. He will most likely tell you that short of carpet bombing--a rifle was his best friend.
2.The term is "Rack&Tap". Not the other way round. "Tapping" a auto pistol without first "Racking" the action will accomplish nothing except making one look foolish. This is assuming that one has experienced a stoppage while using a auto-loader. Folks that use a double action wheelgun need only to pull the trigger a second time to attempt to fire a fresh round.
3. If you are looking down the barrel of one of MY guns you are doing one of two things: you are either a bad person threatening my life or the life of my wife or children, OR you are a gunsmith inspecting your work. Giving someone an order to "go away" will not work all the time. This is why I am prepared to defend me and mine. YOU on the other hand can keep your pointy stick and cell phone. When the police get there they can clean up the mess your murderer will leave behind. "To serve and protect" is not only a catchy motto--- its A LIE!! Police can't protect squat. They only get to the scene AFTER the damage is done. Disagree? Then tell me when was the last time you ever heard of a 911 call from someone asking for help with 'the bad man who is going to be standing in my room--about 40 minutes from now, wanting to rape my wife after he stabs me and kills my children? Now tell me about defensive weapons. Forget pointy sticks---gimme a 9mm auto with 115 gr.hollowpoints over about 7.7 grs. of blue dot in a remington brass wrapper.
Also: ANYTHING can be stolen. Guns are not immune from theft any more than a car or boat. SO WHAT?
Does this make the person who legally owns the gun that is stolen responsible for the theft?? What are we---Canadians???? A theft is committed by: a criminal. Someone who has most likely stalked the mark and knows the safest time to steal from them.
Hence the term "stolen".
I do not understand your thinking---you shoot --yet you are so into the anti way of things.
just how long have you been shooting league?
Not to be rude or anything---but if you talked like that around any of the guys I know who shoot league---you most likely would not be asked to join.
BTW---what type of sport shooting do you do? "league" is too vague...................... |
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Why does the fringe always CAPITALIZE and EXCLAIM???!!!!!!!!!!! Don't they know that's what the ANTI-GUNNERS want????? AAAARRRGGHH!!!! The FASCISTS are counting my EXCLAMATION points!!!!I've gotta go clean MY 9mm GUNS so when the GESTAPO shows up at MY front door, Ill be able to BLOW THEM ALL THE WAY BACK TO RUSSIA WITH 115 gr. HOLLOWPOINTS!!!! COMMIES!!! ARRGGHH!!!!! |
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At last! I finally caught my breath, thumbwax, now maybe I can TYPE STRAIGHT!!!!!!! |
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HK:
Who and where do criminals get their guns from? |
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1.) Gun dealers?
2.) Private owners?
3.) Steal them from idiots who have to show off their toys to every asshole that walks in the door?
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I'll man the Machine GUN nest so y'all can speak Mr. HESTON, I mean Mr. 9. And don't forget about the part where MOSES came down from Mount Sinai with the SECOND AMENDMENT. Did I mention that my Granny was a BOMBardier? Yup, Enola Gay.
Keep up the good work, Scott_D-Stick to your guns as you understand the weapon [Pen is mightier than the sword and Gun ownership is what it is without paranoid delusions], the only point HKUSP9 has is a HOLLOWPOINT. I guess I'm a fence sitter. |
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Where a bad guy gets a firearm is unimportant. Firearms have even been stolen from police officers.
Scott seems to feel that he is immune to crime. But answer me this,bub: Just how do you become immune from a determined robber? Can you guarentee that no one can get your gun?
I honestly do not think you can.Not anymore than you can say that your car will never be stolen.
Furthermore, I do not care how many nics you use, Scott, you still need to use appropriate language in these discussions. Keep up with the swearing and I will report you. For a man that likes to put forth a front of dexterious literacy, I am ashamed for you that you have stooped to swearing.
And to Thumballina--(Scott with another nic?):
Old jokes those. And still quite uneffective.
I had hoped that you were the beginning of a decent debate--sadly it appears that I was mistaken. If you guys/guy? want to sling dirt that is ok by me. The anti gun crazies have not a case to stand on,but I will slog on if needed to dispell the absolute garbage and lies the likes of HCI and others spread like a cancer in this country. |
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Thank you, HKUSP9. Sadly, I had to use Reverse Psychology. Me being the start of a decent debate? Scott_D is in my humble opinion able to recognize validities which are scattered throughout which are fair, accurate and much to your chagrin, impartial. I have also taken the time to read your postings admirable as they may be, but find that your 'enthusiasm' detracts from the very real concern that you have. [hence my Reverse Psychology]
That said, the 'language' you refer to is nonexistent and nonthreatening. Get over the delusions of grandeur and get on with presenting a balanced, cohesive and tolerable point of view. Make no mistake about it, issues are not always black and white nor are they always any amount of shades of gray. |
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Following up on Mr USP9's response.
1) I think that your example of a soldier holding a line with a rifle supports my point. Leaving the gun in a foxhole by itself isn't enough (maybe it will be with next years model). The soldier can't be sleeping, they have to be awake and be the first to shoot.
2) For tap, Rack vs rack, tap I refer you to http://www.recguns.com/IVD.html. Seems like different people have different methods & opinions.
3) Your point about the police being too slow is usually true, sadly. The exception seems to be if you're rich & or live in a rich neighborhood. Now imagine if we had a social system that allowed good response times for all neighborhoods. Shouldn't that goal be worth as much effort as handgun defense? I'd much rather have people working to build Burlington than Miami or LA.
4) You're quite correct that anything can be stolen. Earlier you mentioned that you keep your guns in a safe. While your guns could still be stolen,it's a lot less likely than if you were one of the folks who keeps guns under a car seat or in their sock drawer.
5) No, I don't debate gun politics at the range, I just shoot there. I figure I'm there to learn. |
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Rack and Tap. Always.
A stoppage happens for many reasons.
A few of them are:
Stovepipe stoppage.
Dead primer.
No powder or primer.
Bullet seated too high.
Action obstruction / clothing,a twig,hair,ect.
No amount of tapping will clear any of these without first racking the slide first. Other stoppages happen--but if one happens while you are in a defensive position------!
Hey man---just rack the damn slide first. |
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Man them crickets sure are loud.
Hey Kus, fetch me a beer will ya? |
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You are a big boy now Thumbguy--You know where the fridge is.
BTW, I was away on a hunting trip and have just returned today. FYI: The bird hunting in Minnesota is terribly lousy this year. The grouse seem to be on the low side of their population cycle.If you had been planning to hunt in Minnesota this year--- bring a book.
On the lighter side of the hunting story, the deer are making pests of themselves. I saw 4 harvestable bucks in one afternoon. The cheddarheads seem to be enjoying the same good fortune as far as the deer are concerned. |
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After reading Thumbwax's half-baked idea of a "Theater Sniper", I will no longer respond to his remarks concerning this subject.
His remarks were irresponsible and childish.
That they were accepted and encouraged even in a joking manner sickens me.
Shame on you Thumbwax.
You have some nerve to come in here and take the offensive and then spout such crap. |
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Then you won't want to check out my Redneck Peasant [dear readers, any similarities between yourself and trailer trash is purely coincidental]. It's called free speech, wonderful in tandem with sense of humor-and it's also protected by law. Kinda like Patrick McManus-you know, the funny guy. |
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An interesting point most people miss: a rifle is an //offensive// weapon, and a shotguns can be useful for both offense and defense, but handgun is a primarily //defensive// weapon. |
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Rifles are designed for hitting targets at medium to long distances. Their usefulness as self-defense weapons is somewhat limitted in many areas, however, by the need to avoid hitting innocent people with stray bullets (some rifle rounds can travel for miles if fired at an upward angle)Since they are rather bulky, one is unlikely to carry a rifle unless one has an expectation of using it. |
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Shotguns are extremely effective at short range and medium ranges, moreso than a rifle. While their short range performance makes them good self-defense weapons when they can be kept handy (e.g. for home-defense situations) they tend to be rather bulky (like rifles) and are thus hard to keep handy while traveling. |
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Handguns are not nearly as effective as rifles at medium to long ranges, nor as effective as shotguns at close to medium ranges. The only reason they're used at all is that if you're approached on the street by a mugger, a 12 gauge shotgun sitting at home isn't going to do nearly as much good as a 9mm which you have on your person. |
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If you know you're going to be attacked on a certain day, carry a shotgun. Much more effective than any handgun. On the other hand, carrying around a shotgun on the off chance that one might be attacked would be rather bothersome; while a handgun won't be as effective as a shotgun if you actually are attacked, it will be much less nuisancesome on the days you're not. |
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Hmm, I see your point SuperCat.
But there's that hitch around having handguns be "primarily" defensive. Because they're small, they're also really good for sneaking up on people & suddenly threatening or shooting them.
Having a gun handy also means that when someone looses control/good judgement, they can do so with lethal force.
As the cliche goes, if you're carrying a gun, you know there's at least one gun in any fight you get in. |
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Guns, like hammers & pocket knives are just too flexible to be termed "defensive", even if some fit the bill better than others. |
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So perhaps we need to have folks switch to shotguns, or really long barreled pistols, or red hats for people carrying small pistols. Then a certain percentage of people can get a free ride just by wearing a red hat. |
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Why is everyone still stuck on every word of a document that was written so long ago. The second amendment is out of date. I believe that people should be allowed to possess guns, but what is the need for handguns? I HAVE had a gun pulled on me before, but I didn't need my own weapon to get out of the situation. Infact, having my own weapon would probably have ended up in one of us being shot, quite possibly me! The possibility in the US government being taken over by a Hitler-sort is quite low. That is the purpose of checks and balances within the system. Not to mention that we elect individuals in power. Plus, having one of the largest armies in the world leaves the possibility of the government being overthrown by a new Hitler sort to be low. If it were, would a bunch of handguns really help? If you want to hunt, I'm all for that. Why is it so important that all people, even unstable individuals and violent criminals, be able to purchase a gun is less than a week's time? Is it that critical to have a new gun that quick? Also, is there really a logical purpose for guns other than hunting? |
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I think it may be worth mentioning at this point, that Hitler did not "overthrow" the government in order to take power. He appealed to the fears and prejudices of the populace and was democratically elected. |
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It all goes to show that if you want to live in the land of the free, the most important weapon in your armoury is an unconstrained mind. |
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No, Hitler did not "overthrow" the government. He rose to power because Germany was in shreds. He was the most willing to come forward, and lead the people of Germany into what they believed would be a time of Germany becoming a world power. That is why I pointed out that we elect our individuals in power. Leaders that were ruthless have, however, overthrown governments in history. Hitler would have been a brilliant leader if it wasn't for his callous and racist murdering. That is the reason he came into power. |
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tenhand: Sure, handguns can be effective on "sneak" attacks. And it may be better for a crook's morale to sneak up to someone and jam a pistol in their face than to simply walk up to them with a shotgun knowing that while their victim is well aware that someone's coming after 'em there's nothing they can do anyway. |
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In terms of effectiveness, a rifle from 300 yards is apt to be both more effective and less risky for the shooter than a short-range handgun attack. Kennedy was shot by a deer rifle; Reagan was shot with a handgun. Who survived? |
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billipsycho: If you think the Second Amendment is outdated, push to have it repealed. The framers designed the Constitution to change with the times--that's why they wrote Article V. Changes to the Constitution, however, are supposed to require 2/3 of the Congress and 3/4 of the states. The framers would be furious to know that people today think all that's needed is to appoint some activist judges. |
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Saying the Constitution is a "living document" is like saying a moth-infested overcoat is a "living garment". |
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lemon: In Israel, terrorists have occasionally gone into restaurants with machine guns and opened fire. In such attacks, usually the only people to end up dead are the terrorists. |
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Unfortunately, terrorists switched to using bombs. |
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Supercat: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. The UK for example. has most certainly had it's difficulties with terrorists in recent years, but despite the population being unarmed the terrorists did not use machine guns; they used bombs. |
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I hunt, or I used to, when I hunted regularly, with a S&W 44 magnum, 8-3/8 barrel - the famous "Dirty Harry" configuration, and I learned this practice, and was given the gun, by my stepfather, and avid hunter and gun collector, and I spent much of my childhood reloading ammo, and blasting everything in sight. Anyway, a pistol is good in the brush, where a rifle can be cumbersome - sniping is boring anyway. |
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The objection to registration, and it is a very good idea, is that gun owners fear that once registered, it becomes easier for someone to track down and confiscate them - this argument is not without some substance. Europe is civilized in a way that neither America nor Austrailia has ever been, and I suspect that an attempt to get rid of handguns in America would have results similar to Austrailia's, with armed crime skyrocketing. |
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Eric Mottram wrote a rather brilliant essay on the subject, " 'The Persuasive Lips' Men and Guns in America, the West", and Mottram is, or ought to be, required reading for students of American culture. I found a collection of his essays for a dollar, at some discount store, called "Blood on the Nash Ambassador" Hutchison Radius, 1983, I think, and the price is in £ (ells, to an American). I highly recommend it, if you can find it - out of print, most likely. I've included a link to to a Mottram home page, at any rate, and I'll leave you to it - good hunting! |
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Nice to see you again, Scott_D. One should read point-counterpoints outside of the halfbakery instead of shooting from the hip. |
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