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kinder gentler discussion

metaidea: so we can just talk
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Ok, I'm still new. Maybe there is already an appropriate place. If not, then I thought posting this "idea" would be the fastest way to get a place to discuss and clarify the Halfbakery, what it is and should be, and how.

I've got a question: How do you put a link in the annotation? I tried writing it as I would when pointing a browser somewhere, tried writing it in HTML with the <A> tags as I would when making a web page, and neither worked. And yes, I read the help file.

Some words on the use and abuse of terms here. 1. Rant: Just about every idea can be described as a rant. Problems are the #1 inspiration behind solutions. 2. WIBNI: Same as 1.

<unkind ungentle accusation> Some of you old-timers have been very biased with your use of these terms. You let it slide on ideas that really are Rants, WIBNI, Punish Doers of X, or Something Else, and slap other perfectly good ideas with these labels. Seems like your bias is heavily in favor of ideas from your fellow old timers and against us newcomers. When you toss in the personal attacks ("What a moron you are, X"), it's pretty hard not to take it, well, personally. Can't speak for my fellow newbies, but for myself: Stuff it. I like the concept of this site and you aren't going to run me off as easily as that. </unkind ungentle accusation>

Now a word about the nature of a few of the categories. How can any idea that fits into an "anti" category (not anti-gravity; I mean, specifically, anti-SUV) not be a rant? Why do such categories exist? Are they traps?

If so, then ok, I fell into a trap. Shame on me for being negative. You fooled me once, shame on you. And shame on you for dangling the trap in front of the newcomers in such a legitimate, official seeming way. Go read up on entrapment. This is what I found: 1992 Supreme Court ruling in Jacobson v. United States - that law enforcement "may not originate a criminal design, implant in an innocent person's mind the disposition to commit a criminal act, and then induce commission of the crime so that the government may prosecute"

Enough from me. Discuss away.

ThotMouser, May 05 2002

Praising decent ideas a little more often so people don't get upset and run away. http://www.halfbake...and_20run_20away_2e
Self-explanatory. [pottedstu, May 06 2002, last modified Oct 04 2004]

Halfbakery etiquette guide http://www.halfbake...20etiquette_20guide
Lame idea, good annotations [pottedstu, May 06 2002, last modified Oct 04 2004]

[link]






       we take a bit of getting used to. try putting your links on the button marked *link*
po, May 05 2002
  

       The only html accepted in the annotation box is
.
An idea is labeled a rant if it doesn't have any idea on how to get rid of the problem that he is ranting against, or if the idea is in extremely emotive language.
WIBNI's are put in place where the idea is a 'magic wand solution' (Thanks for the phrase Jutta), and as such is a 'no-idea', and only says there should be an X that does Y, and doesn't tell you any further than that.
We're not biased towards fellow 'old timers' we're just more lenient with them because they managed to get throught the newbie bashing gauntlet that we set up. Once you get past it, and take our insults on the chin, eventually you will become an 'old timer' and hopefully stop whinging about 'unfair treatment' that we all have to suffer. I believe in the U.S. its called hazing.
[ sctld ], May 05 2002
  

       From the "about" page:   

       "The Halfbakery is a communal database of original, fictitious inventions, edited by its users. It was created by people who like to speculate, both as a form of satire and as a form of creative expression."   

       I disagree that invention springs from rants.   

       I also point out that the top voted idea here, "Panic PIN", is not a rant and was posted as a first idea by a then "newbie".  I think you'll find that the bias is a bias against lame ideas and not new users. New users that "get it" immediately are rare and they are very welcome. Unfortunately, many new users post before fully understanding the HB (myself included, when I was new).
bristolz, May 05 2002
  

       Rod, what percentage of people are going to lurk around that long and not want to contribute? Although a good thing when it happens, it goes against the general net environment. I think my first post was a day after I bumped into this place. I don't even remember how I found it. Some errant research on google, maybe. It's an uphill battle, I say. Maybe there should be a brief user welcome page that mandatorily springs up the first time you create an account, so we don't risk pissing off every newbie that wants to stick around.
RayfordSteele, May 05 2002
  

       Oh yes, another burning question: who or what is Peter Sealy?   

       As for the cautious approach, lurking and learning and such being the Best Approach To Take, well, it is not as cut and dried as that. At some point one has to participate to learn those things (and there are always some) that cannot be learned through observation. And on others, learning by doing can be a lot faster than learning by observation.   

       I know how I found this place. I was trying to find an actual ink jet printer that printed with white ink onto black paper. Since then HB has come up a few more times in searches I was doing for totally unrelated stuff. Someone mentioned there's been an influx of new users recently? And it has made the regulars grouchier than usual? I think it is because the various search engines recently plodded thru this site.
ThotMouser, May 05 2002
  

       //Oh yes, another burning question: who or what is Peter Sealy?

He's the boogie monster. Halfbakers throughout the world tell their kids "eat your greens, or PeterSealy will yell 'baked!' at you".
mcscotland, May 05 2002
  

       Peter Sealy was one of the old guard that left recently and deleted his account, which removed all of his annotations, for which Peter was best known. As one of the volunteer moderators, he was known for usually posting the first annotation to any new idea, and saying 'baked, see link' for any idea that was already created anywhere on the net. Hence, someone came up with the term 'PeterSealybot.' He also had some that we'll miss. If you look up 'Halfbakery calander' or something like that, there's a picture of him there on one of the months in one of the links.
RayfordSteele, May 05 2002
  

       PeterSealy wasn't a moderator.
bristolz, May 05 2002
  

       I did just as [Rod's Tiger] stated. After a week or two of reading ideas and annotations ("lurking and learning") I had a pretty fair idea of how this place worked. It was on the basis of that understanding that I decided to participate. I think it worked OK in my case (though other 'bakers may disagree with that).
half, May 06 2002
  

       ThotMouser, judging from the thoughtful quality of your prose and your gentle attitude, I think you've got no worries about coming aboard. After being here about a year there are still many ideas I have not read thoroughly--the database is big, man--and I 'spect the master-bakers' apparently off-handed dismissal of some ideas or even categories of ideas stems from their cumulative knowledge of the database. (Not another punish-bad-drivers idea! Fisboen! Not another flatulence-filter! Fisboen!)   

       Wot, you want politeness? Actually, I remember some periods that were more contentious and rude than anything I've seen of late. Something that helped me deal with criticism was to consciously disconnect my ego (as much as possible) from any idea I posted--just another idea, I've had others and I will have more.   

       Good luck and welcome aboard.   

       [Later: Oh, I just read the "Dell guy" thread for the first time. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that draws flames like Picasso drew nudes. Heigh-ho, shrug, etc.]
Dog Ed, May 06 2002
  

       ThotMouser: It's also traditional for thoughtful new users to post ideas like this, questioning what they're supposed to do, such as lewisgirl's "praising decent ideas a bit more..." If you can work out what the Halfbakery regulars want, then you'll probably have the qualities to be the sort of person who can contribute a lot to the halfbakery.   

       It's true that the old guard is sometimes cut a little more slack, but that's only if they've proved their worth. if you contribute a lot (in quality as well as quantity), you're allowed to have some fun. But even regulars get "rant" shouted at them from time to time. If you're creative or funny or generally inventive, you'll fit in. As long as you can take some criticism, which is generally constructive even if it doesn't seem to be.
pottedstu, May 06 2002
  

       I'm new here too [ThotMouser], and its precisely the nature of the annotations that keeps me hooked. I think that there is a pattern of adjustment and gradual understanding displayed by many new users like ourselves. Unfortunately you don't identify it until your well down the path of repeating it.
I would disagree with you on the treatment of new halfbakers, it seems to me that the first post, unless blatantly offensive, is usually greeted with agreeable and pleasant guidance.
Then we get overconfident, heady with the sensations induced by intelligent people taking the time not only to assess our idea but to comment on it. This results in another post which is probably as deficient in style, wit or utility as the first. Only this time its fair game.
The great thing is that a crap idea is immediately forgotten if you do manage come up with something vaguely worthwhile, I'm still working on it, in real life people change tables permanently.
You have to suppress your paranoia and accept that if you think that your idea seems to be misunderstood than that’s your communication skills at fault, If it seems to be uninteresting that’s your fault too.
But there is always the option of thinking before one inflicts ones ideas, I'm not personally very good at this but it has saved me from a couple of disasters.
IvanIdea, May 06 2002
  

       // I like the concept of this site and you aren't going to run me off as easily as that. //   

       Ah. You're ready to snatch the pebble from hippo's hand, then.   

       Thot, good of you to post this and get your concerns out for discussion, rather than abandon ship. As Dog Ed observes, that's a good indicator that you're built of baker-quality stuff. (Whatever the hell that is.)   

       I often think we could do with a narrower definition of 'rant.' I don't think it's enough to use the dictionary definition of "bombastic and extravagant speech." I believe that a rant idea is distinguished from, well, from a non-rant idea by its tendency to serve only, or at least chiefly, the purpose of critici(s)zing the topic. Occasionally a rant with a good enough solution to a problem sneaks through with enough brazenness to duck the rant label, but that's a rare animal indeed.   

       If you find yourself writing "Don't you hate it when X happens..." - you're writing a rant.
waugsqueke, May 06 2002
  

       You people are getting far too f**king civilized. Sheesh.
quarterbaker, May 06 2002
  

       ThotMouser, if you post something that has information on what the problem is, AND a reasonable idea on how to fix it, then you won't get the 'rant' or 'wouldn't it be neat if' label. <I hate acronyms.>   

       If you post something dumb, like the 'Britney should take her clothes off now and spare us her singing', which is the answer to a question no one asked, it's a rant.   

       Pretty much all the anti- ideas are rants, and as such are usually nailed for it. Some of the older ones have escaped it, since 'marked for d eletion' <munged to avoid making it show up on the searches> did not exist until just recently.   

       Personal attacks happen when people wander in from the wild and tell us 'you all suck'. I deleted one user whose only 'contribution' was to create an account to tell us we all suck and to get a life. <I was later overruled.> If you don't act like a jerk, you get treated like a not-jerk. If you whine when you dumb idea of strapping buttered bread to the back of a cat to make antigravity gets boned, you're a jerk.   

       I've been gone for a while, so I haven't seen you around much. The original post here was very close to 'you all suck', but your annotations in this thread have brought it back.   

       You will always at some point have to pick up the horseshoe to see if it's hot. Watching other people grab it first can be instructive.
StarChaser, May 07 2002
  

       //...accept that if you think that your idea seems to be misunderstood than that’s your communication skills at fault//

pah! If people don't understand your ideas it's because they've got puny little brains and aren't worthy of your attention. Say what you like, how you like, when you like. Don't try and fit in just to make the rest of us comfortable. If you cross a forbidden boundary one of the moderators will soon sling you out on your ear.

Oh, and fishbone, by the way, just for using the words 'kinder' and 'gentler'.
DrBob, May 07 2002
  

       // Peter Sealy ... deleted his account, which removed all of his annotations //   

       That's too bad. I did a little figuring and realized lack of space was no reason to ever delete anything as small as a text message. 5 lifetimes of text e-mail sent and received (no spam, and leave out the multimedia) will easily fit on a CD.   

       // The original post here was very close to 'you all suck', but your annotations in this thread have brought it back. // Not following the meaning of "brought it back." Redeemed this post from being a rant? Brought back something such as bad memories?   

       I'm not the only one who asserts that ideas come mainly from rants:   

       "The reasonable man adapts to the world around him. The unreasonable man expects the world to adapt to him. Therefore, all progress is made by unreasonable men."   

       -- George Bernard Shaw
ThotMouser, May 11 2002
  

       Ah, yes,the noted NAZI
[ sctld ], May 11 2002
  

       The reasonable man... yada yada yada...   

       // so we can just talk //   

       Thought about going to a chat room maybe...?   

       [marked for deletion], not an idea.
lubbit, May 12 2002
  

       //Seems like your bias is heavily in favor of ideas from your fellow old timers and against us newcomers. //   

       // If people don't understand your ideas it's because they've got puny little brains and aren't worthy of your attention. Say what you like, how you like, when you like. Don't try and fit in... //   

       I agree.   

       What this site IS good for is testing an idea to see what AVERAGE people could possibly find wrong with and to see if you could possibly be misunderstood. After your idea is torn, twisted and left for dead you can decide if you want to pick up what's left and share it with your friends.
akanewB, May 12 2002
  

       friends?
DrBob, May 12 2002
  

       ...or Vernon or abhi or GeorgeTheRobin or drews_reluctant_whore_of_babble_on
thumbwax, May 12 2002
  

       This idea is probably old enough that nobody but newbies, those who went on vacation for really long amounts of time, and the terminally bored will read it, but.... [ThotMouser], not all newbies are offended by yells of 'rant!' and whatnot. Some of us just set unreachably high standards of what ideas need to be before they're posted. Laugh at, think about, and maybe even read other people's ideas! (no offense meant, that was not directly aimed at ThotMouser) Hopefully I'll see and comment on another idea of yours someday soon.
canitbee, Jul 24 2002
  

       P.S.: Croissant, because of the many things I learned about HB from this topic. Maybe it should be turned into a Newbie's Help Page?
canitbee, Jul 24 2002
  

       Reactions to old and young 'bakers alike is based on several factors:
Is there a "there" there?
Spirit in which it was posted
Bait + hook = fish (Some fish have sharper teeth than others)
Comedian vs. Comic factor: A Comedian says funny things (Sometimes those things are funny only to its elf)
A Comic says things funny (See: Rods Tiger - when he unleashes the comic within, his annotations hurt my sides)
Comics are geniuses, Comedians are not.
What is read/said between the lines (See: GeorgeTheRobin)
Defense mechanisms by poster
Number of Newbies who "coincidentally" show up at the exact same time, drooling on one another's ideas, voting, etc.
Bakedness
thumbwax, Jul 24 2002
  

       Are you saying you were born yesterday?
tyskland, Dec 01 2002
  

       I wish I could figure out what your point is. Seriously.
bristolz, Dec 01 2002
  

       Yada yada yada... get over it.
lubbit, Dec 02 2002
  

       Arthur - a great many of the 'bakers had an in-depth look at the site before even voting on an idea. It's somewhat akin to the difference between lust and love.
thumbwax, Dec 02 2002
  

       "Search"
tyskland, Dec 02 2002
  

       //Newbies don't see veteran members' ideas being trashed because they've already been deleted//

...or not posted in the first place. On a couple of occasions I've had what I thought were brilliant and original ideas only to find that they were brilliant and original but also someone else's. As tyskland says, "Search".
DrBob, Dec 02 2002
  
      
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