Product: Weapon: Electric Shock
Max Taser Limit : One   (0)  [vote for, against]
Training vengance implies more than one so limit to one.

If you're lucky you're local taser cop has been trained by taking a hit himself.

If you're unlucky this means he is a psychopath who is determined to make his first victim suffer at least two consequetive hits within a short space of time.

Ok, I was going to say max one taser hit. But now I've going to say that law enforcement are totally entitled to frazzle anyone provided they go through the same simulated sequence themselves e.g. one shock followed by 20 seconds of verbal abuse while they are disorientated per shock administered. That is, they can never shock to others what they haven't experienced themselves, god willing (Matthew 7:12). To play safe maybe any enforcing officer should undergo that suffered by his own hand plus one (we live in stressed moral times).
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012

the Karl Thompson incident http://latimesblogs...n-zehm-spokane.html
//Thompson was once considered a potential candidate to become police chief// [21 Quest, Jun 10 2012]

I whole-heartedly agree that police officers should voluntarily experience both mace and a taser strike.

However, I think that this statement:

// If you're unlucky this means he is a psychopath who is determined to make his first victim suffer at least two consequetive hits within a short space of time. //

is _way_ off-base. Police officers are generally not sadists, and they are almost definitely not psychopaths. Law enforcement academies screen for that sort of thing. Most cops genuinely want to help people. They don't want to cause suffering. If they did, they'd be dentists instead.
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

Personally speaking the whole dentist thing is covered by "Do you want to have the filling now or make an appointment ?" or worst case "I'm really busy right now, all things considered, I think I should make an appointment."

I'm just saying, shock +1 is what the cop gets. Ok, one for one if just one. A trigger happy cop gets more. I mean why utterly disorientate and paralyze more than once ?

I guess I should refine the idea to first-time mandatory training of post-shock shouting and compliance on the side of road in adverse conditions e.g. when he's driving home for dinner on a friday. It's either that or we go with the idea that people are perfectly rational after a good 30 second sleep, I mean shocking sensation under ECT.

Tasers sound barbaric in the UK, but I guess they are a step up from a chest full of holes while trying to get out your passport.
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012

The dentist comment was a joke.

Why disorientate and paralyze more than once? Because some buggers just won't stay down. A single jolt from a taser does fuck-all to a street monster with a headful of PCP. Even the octogenarian grandma that went into cardiac arrest after being tased a while back, as tragic as that incedent was, refused to submit after the first hit and in fact actually laid a blow on one of the responding officers before they could get another dart into her. They could have subdued her by other means, yes, but I can tell you from personal experience that when somebody's swinging a bat at your face it's hard to logically think things through.

I don't think forcing an officer who has tased someone to take a jolt in retribution is a good idea. I do think that compulsory tasing during training is a good idea. I've been voluntarily hit by a stun gun, which is like tasing without having the skin punctured, and having that experience would make a cop think about exactly how long he or she wants to hold the trigger down.
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

//A single jolt from a taser does fuck-all to a street monster with a headful of PCP//

As a mild mannered and principled drug free kind of guy I think a single jolt from a taser would be equivalent to a shot of PCP, whatever that is. Is it like being electrocuted and disorientated for a bit so you have no idea what is going on ? Just sayin'. A controlled exposure to your own medicine is one thing, but out of the blue and out or your experience is another. Cops administering shocks think "well I've already been through it", but are they thinking "When I'm 60, would I really like that while being shouted at, 3 times in a row ? Would my heart even last that long? I don't have that much left"
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012

I wonder about the effectiveness of that screening, alterother. Here in Spokane, a seasoned policeman named Karl Thompson (this is searchable on Google) beat an innocent mentally disabled man named Otto Zehm to death with repeated baton strikes to the head. He didn't die immediately, rather when EMS showed up they saw that he had difficulty breathing so they put a sealed breath mask in Otto's face. At the direction of the POLICE, not the EMTs, the oxygen flow was kept off. Despite video footage from a security camera showing the unprovoked, brutal attack (Karl walks up to Otto, and within a few seconds starts wailing on him with a baton), the ENTIRE police department rallied behind this cop, saying he was justified in his use of force because he felt legitimately threatened when Otto spun around to face him holding a plastic soda bottle. It took 5 years to convict him because of the rabid defense mounted by his cop buddies, and they pled him down to manslaughter instead of the murder conviction he rightfully deserved.

There are incidents like this all the time. A few years ago, a man was standing on a bridge threatening to jump. He was surrounded by police who were trying to talk him down. One hotshot decided they'd done enough talking and decided to shoot him with a tazer. Go figure, the man fell off the edge and died. I've really lost a great deal of respect for the police in my area, and it's a damn shame because I'm a strong advocate for law enforcement and always have been.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

[21 Quest] Yeah, its a worry.

On the flippant side, "a seasoned policeman", presumably has been trained by trial salt and pepper spraying.
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012


I never said the screening was absolutely 100% effective, I just meant that it's a little off-base to automatically assume that an officer using excessive force is a sadistic psychopath.

Also, I think that many agencies are severely lax in regularly screening veteran officers. It's unsafe to simply assume that somebody who's been on an even keel for many years doesn't have something building up inside them.
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

//It's unsafe to simply assume that somebody who's been on an even keel for many years doesn't have something building up inside them.//

<madonna style vocals>Like a pensioner tasered for the very first time</msv>
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012

//Security video from the convenience store introduced at trial showed Thompson running into the store and drawing his baton as he ran at Zehm from behind. Witnesses testified that Zehm appeared to be unaware that anyone was approaching him as he picked up the soda to purchase.

Less than 2.5 seconds after Zehm turned to see Thompson running toward him, the police officer delivered two baton blows to his head, knocking him backward to the floor, according to the prosecution and witness testimony.

"Witnesses testified that Thompson then stood over the victim and fired Taser probes down into [his] chest as he was in the fetal position on the floor beneath him," the prosecution said in a statement. "The victim never returned to his feet, but Thompson continued to deliver overhand baton blows, including a final flurry of seven baton strikes in eight seconds."

Several other officers arrived as backup, and Zehm was hogtied on the floor, his face covered by a plastic mask, purportedly to keep him from spitting at the officers, according to court documents. Within minutes, he stopped breathing. He was revived and hospitalized but never regained consciousness. He was pronounced dead two days later. The cause of death was lack of oxygen to his brain.//

Why didn't the other police who were present, or the EMTs, who are supposed to be the medical experts, intervene? Alterother, this sort of brutality is systemic in many jurisdictions. More than 3 police and several EMTs were present during the latter portion of the beating and tasing, and took part in putting a sealed breath mask on him with no airflow to it. Not one of these people did their job, and yet ONLY Karl Thompson was charged in the incident. Why weren't any of the other equally culpable officers brought up on accessory charges? Because the brutality is institutionalized to such a degree that they only go after one of their own as a scapegoat to sate the media frenzy.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

I guess I'm tainted on the subject by living my whole life in a place where that sort of thing doesn't happen much. After reading the account you just cited, I agree, that's pretty fucked up. It smacks of an irreparably broken system.

Around here, police brutality is rarely an issue. Cops are occasionally censured for excessive force or (more often) harrassment, but overall (Lewiston-Auburn excluded) Maine is an easy beat to walk and most cops are pretty decent people. The one time I was arrested (in the immediate aftermath of a violent brawl; charges were quickly dropped), the officer was very nice about it, actually bordering on polite. That's probably given me an unrealistically favorable perspective.
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

It seems to depend on their mood and who you are. I was arrested last year on a weapons handling charge (the police said I was being charged with mishandling a firearm, but when I pointed out that I was in perfect control of the weapon as I shoved the barrel up the left nostril of my girlfriend's ex, they amended the charge to intimidation with a weapon), but like you said, they were actually quite polite about it and I was released 15 hours later. I was very careful to eject the magazine and the round that was in the chamber, then place it on the hood of a nearby car and have my hands raised by the time they arrived as I was the one who called them, and they were very civil about it. I was also the very picture of compliance, and told them freely what happened and why I did what I did. But there seem to be a LOT of stories from folks who were not so well treated.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

Yeah, that's a point. I was madder than hell and had to be restrained, but I never actually fought with the cops themselves. The officer who was nicest was the one who ended up sitting on me; I think he was using casual conversation as a tactic to calm me down.

Still, from what you've said, I think I'm pretty isolated from the kind of thing you're talking about.
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

So, by the same reasoning, judges shouldn't be allowed to sentence anyone unless they've served the same time in jail?
-- MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 10 2012

//The officer who was nicest was the one who ended up sitting on me//

If anyone did that to me I'd be incredibly annoyed. How the hell would I know it is normal for a police officer to sit on me ? Taser me ? Once, twice, three times and dead ? Do I need biometrics to get into the states safely these days if I'm a bit nervous ? I went to Vegas many years ago, but now it sounds like a death sentence for someone wanting a good time but not a total shake-down.
-- bigsleep, Jun 10 2012

By the same logic as taser and mace training, police should have to be shot by a service pistol loaded with both live ammunition and rubber bullets, beanbag rounds fired from a .12 gauge shotgun, and struck with a baton. I swear, the media would have you believe that nobody ever died at a police officer's hands until the advent of the taser. They act like the taser is the Devil's own weapon. Well I'd rather be tased than set upon by ANY of a police officer's other weapons.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

<"So, by the same reasoning, judges shouldn't be allowed to sentence anyone unless they've served the same time in jail?">

Wait, that seems like a real question: How can people who have no idea what it does do to you dispense fair justice? It's like giving out justice with a dose of painful medicine but not knowing what the painful medicine felt like, and just using whatever dose you thought fit the crime. It's pathological to have people who have no notion of the actual implications of spending years in prison deciding how many years a person should spend in prison for a crime, and yet, that is precisely what we have.
-- WcW, Jun 10 2012

-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

//Max Taser Limit : One// Hey, that works for me.
-- MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 10 2012

So in this thread we have notorious anti-personal- choice right-wing neo-fascist [21Q] criticizing the police for their overzealous enforcement actions and famed pot-smoking Ruby Ridge-style anarchist hippie [Alterother] coming to their defense. Love it.
-- ytk, Jun 10 2012

// They don't want to cause suffering. If they did, they'd be dentists instead. //

No, they'd be Geography teachers.

//rubber bullets, beanbag rounds fired from a .12 gauge shotgun, and struck with a baton. //

Add to that 9mm Parabellum rounds via a kevlar flak vest (surprisingly mild), ARWEN 38mm baton rounds to the lower limbs (quite remarkably painful and incapacitating), and Being married To A Woman That Likes Horses (horrendous).

12-gauge beanbag - or rubber pellet - rounds aren't that bad, nor are the "rubber ball" grenades. They sting briefly, but aren't incapacitating. Likewise, anything with capsacin is liable to have limited effects on dedicated, indeed enthusiastic, consumers of extra-hot curry and chilli.

For maximum effectiveness, we highly recommend the "crap grenade" (q.v.).

Take the cardboard inner tube from a roll of toilet tissue. Fill same with the animal excrement of your choice (cat is highly recommended; a respirator may be necessary to prevent vomiting). Insert into the core of said device a Mk. VIII Thunder-Flash training device.

Initiate the fuse, introduce the assembly into the sleeping-place of the victim.

Be assured that any individual who has been exposed to 100 grammes of superheated atomized cat excrement in a highly confined space is still going to have "odour issues" up to 72 hours later, no matter how much they wash themselves and their kit.

Oh, how we laughed.
-- 8th of 7, Jun 10 2012

Would you be ok with legalizing drunk driving, ytk? I'm guessing not, and if you're against drunk driving, it stands to reason that you're also against stoned driving. If you're against stoned driving, then you should support restrictions on how much THC can be in your system at the time of driving. If you support restrictions on BTC (Bodily THC Content), then you should support research on dosage levels and how much BTC is considered to be reaction or judgement impairing. Once this research is conducted properly, THEN we can work out how to legalize it under similar restrictions to alcohol and tobacco consumption. I'm not against cannabis consumption. I'm against cannabis consumption AS IS, because there is no reliable scientific research to support it, and there are ways in which it impacts the rest of society (impaired driving, second-hand smoke, etc) that need to be addressed.

I'm not anti-personal choice. You can choose to do things that don't affect other people against their will all you like. Gratuitous cannabis consumption doesn't meet that criteria.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 10 2012

I wish everyone would just smoke their bud at home and stop bothering [21Quest].
-- Alterother, Jun 10 2012

I was wondering which of you would bite.

Actually, I wasn't really wondering. I knew it wouldn't be [Alter].
-- ytk, Jun 10 2012

Funny how this slipped from tasers to pot...

From what I have been able to determine brutality from law enforcement seems directly tied to the size of the town/city they have to enforce.
Whether this has to do with the sheer number of perps or if bad cops just gravitate toward population centers I don't know.
Just recently a vacation video from German tourists surfaced showing a bi-polar man, off his meds and swinging a bike chain and lock, was disarmed on his hands and knees in a group of many officers, yet get shot in the head... in fucking Canada... and it comes to light five years after the fact when the tourists screwed up enough courage to send the video to someone in authority.

I don't trust authority. Perhaps if the rights I have been 'granted' had been defended as strictly as the rights I am denied are enforced I would feel differently

...but I don't.
-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jun 11 2012

Did you read my most recent annotation, 2 fries? Find a way to solve the problems of impaired driving and second-hand smoke inflicting psychoactive/psychotropic effects on people who don't wish to partake, and my objection goes away. Those aren't things you have, or have ever had, a right to do. If all you want is the right to smoke in your own home, then go for it. I just want some assurance that you won't be suffering (or enjoying as the case may be) any lingering effects from it when you get the munchies and decide to drive to the grocery store. How is asking for such assurance a violation of your rights? Do you claim a right to drive impaired if that's what you feel like doing at the time? Really?
-- 21 Quest, Jun 11 2012

[21Q], why do you get so worked up when it comes to marijuana? Nobody even mentioned pot in this thread until I made a jocular reference to [Alterother]'s use of it, which apparently prompted you to take a sharp left turn straight into downtown Foaming-at-the-Mouth.

Is it that you still feel guilty about that pot brownie you tried eleven years ago? Don't worry—the Feds aren't going to find out and throw you in a prison cell with (Una)Bubba. Jesus ain't gonna send you to Hell neither, if you're worried about that. Just let it go, man.
-- ytk, Jun 11 2012

I wonder if this would be a good time to mention that the second-hand 'contact high' is a myth? Just because you can smell it doesn't mean you're going to get knocked out of your tree.

Oh, and I'm not an anarchist, I'm an individualist. Anarchists are silly self-deluding wankers who will be in for a big shock if they ever get what they think they want. Otherwise, the description was hilariously flattering.
-- Alterother, Jun 11 2012

It's a tricky one this - but I do wonder whether you have to draw a link between police brutality and the general enarmedness of the population. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the UK (because it does) but in general, I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that if your job is to police, you're generally going to be more up-tight if you know that your average punter is more likely to be packing deadly weaponry than if they're not. I'm not arguing for or against firearms being available to all - that's another argument, for another day - or even more preferably, not for another day. All I'm saying is that if you, as a police officer feel a very real threat of more-deadly violence in your day-to-day job, that's probably going to have an effect on your general disposition, and leading on from that, the amount of patience you're going to have when dealing with someone's lack of cooperation. To put it bluntly, they're going to be more "twitchy".
-- zen_tom, Jun 11 2012

//Find a way to solve the problems of impaired driving and second-hand smoke inflicting psychoactive/psychotropic effects on people//

I contend that the discussion of the topic alone has a far greater psychoactive effect (or affect) than the second-hand smoke is likely to.
-- MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 11 2012

Seconded. Or second-handed. Or whatever.
-- Alterother, Jun 11 2012

Sorry if I get a bit heated on the subject, it's simply been annoying me lately because I've been accosted 4 times in the last 2 weeks by hippies with clipboards asking me to vote for legalization and to sign their petition for it, but they seemed awfully reluctant to answer to any of the objections I raised. I tell them I wouldn't vote to legalize recreational use of ANY substance without proper research and testing done first around which a legal framework can be constructed.
-- 21 Quest, Jun 11 2012

They probably aren't answering your questions and objections because they have little or no education on the subject they're so adamantly proponing. I've found the same to be true with streetcorner bible-thumpers.

The next time you get accosted by one, ask him/her/it one of the following questions:

What are the six psycho-active cannabinoids? (tetrahydrocannibinol^8, tetrahydrocannibinol^9, tetrahydrocannabivarin, cannibidiol, cannibinol, & cannabichromene)

How many strains of Cannabis are there, and which one is used for medicinal purposes? (Sativa, Indica, Afghana, & Ruderalis; Indica is the primary medicinal strain)

Which neuroreceptors interact with cannabinoids? (CB, CBD, & GABA)

Who is Jorge Cervantes and what is his real name? (George van Patten; he's the world's leading expert on Marijuana horticulture)

That's the first five minutes of Medicinal Marijuana 101. If they can't provide at least partial answers to any of those questions, they are fools and they have no business pushing Cannabis legislation, and you can tell them I said so.
-- Alterother, Jun 11 2012

Far more people are adversely affected by second-hand driving than by second-hand pot smoking.
-- spidermother, Nov 02 2012

random, halfbakery