Science: Health: Drug
specific brain area drugs   (+2)  [vote for, against]
dopamine that looks like serotonin goes to serotonin areas of the brain, more precisely delivering neurotransmitters to specific brain areas

I was reading a pharmacology text where it noted that different brain regions had noticeably different amounts of neurotransmitters

This is similar to saying the corpus callosum has three times as much serotonin as the cinculate gyrus or the cingulate gyrus has three times as much serotonin as the corpus callosum Those are different than what it actually said yet you get the idea that neurotransmitters concentrate at large amounts with different brain regions; I think some neurotransmitters may have concentrated 7 or more times as much at different brain structures

With fMRI these brain regions as well as tiny areas of tissue are associated with cognitive events abilities plus feelings each the product of many neurochemicals

If you would like to put more dopamine or serotonin at a particular brain region you could direct activity to that area with a hybrid chemical like serotonin linked to dopamine, where either the serotonin or dopamine is an analog that transports just like the neurotransmitter yet has a much different activity level

Thus the combo is delivered like dopamine or serotonin yet with one of the active groups is a passive analog it just delivers the dopamine or serotonin activity yet at a concentration three to seven times as high as usual with that tissue; its very similar to fluorophore labeling; the neurotransmitter linked fluorphores are such large molecules yet function like, plus trace to, neuroactivity is what makes me think these new brain area drugs will work

What they would do is to amplify the chemistry of different brain regions the effect depending on the region uptake of the transporter neurotransmitter analog while maintaining a functional neurotransmitter level brain wide that is more associated with functionality rather than symptoms

If I knew more about neurology I could say where what plus how, lacking clue though how about a tranquilizer that removes anxiety while making people cleverer so they can have better calmer ideas during the scenario

That would be passivated catecholamines plus GABA modified to pass the BBB transported to the catecholamine area

If you liked you could create an estrogenic drug that was delivered to specific brain areas as well noticeably affecting social consciousness
-- beanangel, May 10 2010

D2 receptors at the thalamus effect creativity thus suggest a creativity pill http://www.plosone....ournal.pone.0010670
make a creativity pill just find the commonest neurotransmitter at the thalamus then create a passivated version of a d2 dopamine agonist to link to that commonest hypothalamic neurotransmitter this reduces d2 receptor specifically at the thalamus (among other places) then find out what the lab mammals do [beanangel, May 22 2010]

/an analog that transports just like the neurotransmitter /

there's the rub. If I link serotonin to dopamine, how is it transported: by serotonin transporters, dopamine transporters, both or neither? Eukaryotic transporters are not very promiscuous.
-- bungston, May 10 2010


Thats where I use ignorance as well as presumption to make it work (humor) I figure if the fluorphores make it to the receptors even though they are many AMU bigger then a teenier passivated neurotransmitter with a linker to an active neurotransmitter will work

I could say something like make a hydrophobic (passes BBB) halogenated (passes BBB) diacetyl or chlorophenoxy (passes (BBB) version of the passive+active neurotransmitter pair yet thats kind of just saying:

make the neutransmitter pairs use new plus published techniques to get them past the blood brain barrier

actually I'm kind of earnest about that ignorance plus presumption part Jutta once warned me that .5b was not a blog I think I could have put more effort on this prior to listing it So many neurotransmitters don't make it past the BBB like GABA as well as dopamine I just kind of figured Load them up with passes then pair them to see if they accumulate at different brain areas along the lines of their paired receptors then measure behavior as well as fMRI changes
-- beanangel, May 10 2010


I know this bloke who went to Morocco to have this thing done where he had an injection intended to turn off the left hemisphere of his brain temporarily. I don't think he ever came back.
-- nineteenthly, May 10 2010


As always - zero point, but energy.

Bad science, Beany: you seem to be assuming that the different regions of the brain somehow suck in various neurotransmitters. Wrongorama: they just *make* more of those neurotransmitters.

So, tagging a drug with a neurotransmitter analogue is unlikely to target it to a specific region.
-- MaxwellBuchanan, May 10 2010


[MB] I may actually be blushing auugh stupidity You are right

a niftier way to attempt this would be to make a brain enzyme map of every known Ase (enzyme that takes apart molecules) like thisorthatdehydrogenase then attach a group that passivates until removed with the Ase of localized character to create a concentration of active neurotransmitter at that brain microregion

If it still possible to make this snazzy with a brain enzyme map it might be possible to brain map the regional saturation capacity of the various thisorthatAse to show the amount of local area drug activity possible
-- beanangel, May 10 2010


I think lots of people are doing proteome mapping of the brain, which includes lots of enzymes.

You know, beany, with a bit of work you could develop some of your postings into ideas....
-- MaxwellBuchanan, May 10 2010


Oh, i know how it is, [MB], one gets these thoughts, which almost but don't quite make sense, then writes them down and they make about as much sense, then comes along and dumps them on here. Sometimes other people can help with them, sometimes not. It isn't always even whether they make sense that determines that so much as whether one gets lucky, posts them at the right time of day on the right day of the week at the right time of year when some other idea isn't soaking up all the attention. Then, one might just get some help if the culture of this place allows it. Otherwise not.
-- nineteenthly, May 10 2010


//Sometimes other people can help with them, sometimes not. [depends] whether one gets lucky// It's not all luck. This idea is written with consistent capitalization and lots of paragraph breaks. And lo, [MaxwellBuchanan] offers constructive criticism and a little encouragement.

In the same spirit: I think some regions of the brain *do* "suck in" particular neurotransmitters, when the neurotransmitter has a reuptake mechanism. This is *almost* true with dopamine, if you'll allow me to elide the distinction between DOPA and dopamine. 18F-DOPA, administered IV, really does concentrate in the striatum: you can see it on a PET image. Orally administered levodopa results in selectively increased dopamine concentrations at nigrostriatal terminals. I, for one, have long suspected that that's the reason it's more effective than dopamine analogs like pramipexole, which follow Buchannan's Law (i.e. when given systemicly, they're homogenously distributed throughout the brain).

So, if you were very clever, you might insinuate a serotonin analog into dopaminergic presynaptic vesicles, by conjugating it to a dopamine analog, and thereby relatively selectively deliver your drug to the striatum.

If you were *really* clever, your molecule might be inert 'till it encountered the intravesicular environment. For some neurotransmitters you might find an intravesicular enzyme you could exploit (like dopamine beta hydroxylase, for noradrenergic vessicles) to convert your prodrug to active form. That'd be [beanangel]'s "Ase"

In practice, I suppose it might be impossible to design a molecule with the requisite properties.

//had an injection intended to turn off the left hemisphere of his brain temporarily// It's called a Wada test, and I don't know why he had to travel to Morocco to get it: it's quite a common procedure.
-- mouseposture, May 10 2010


[mp] I always thought that too, that is that local generation of neurotransmitters was for a localised biology, the localised biology being the important factor. AI engineers want to see the brain as an amorphous blob which is clearly leading to trouble, but for beany baby to completely discount intelligence aspects is (yet again) distinctly worrying.

[beanangel] The thing that really gets to me about your ideas is like the nuclear atomic bomb scientists past, they felt they were in control because they understood raw technology but had very little understanding about what it meant to the real world. Case in point: playing Mozart and injecting happy drugs - does that alter nascient intelligence or just give a temporary appearance ?

I would be a lot more interested in your ideas if they were linked to evolution i.e. modifications that would withstand a generation or more without side-effects.

Without some nod to the future applications of your ideas, you by admission agree to the adage "yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do or die". And I hope I'm not misreading [19th]'s interpretation that without a social context, one can only conclude you are a robot.

Neuroscience is a lifelong career, not a "buy one, get one free" approach.
-- bigsleep, May 10 2010


I have my suspicions and [beanangel] has never commented on them. My hypothesis is that there is a very sophisticated chatbot-style program doing all this with some input from the real [beanangel]. I don't see that as an insult because if that's true it's an awesome achievement on [beanangel]'s part to produce such a convincing contrivance.
-- nineteenthly, May 10 2010


well I put up an old idea I had about far flying bees as a way of making the effects of climate change happier for plants

actually some of the things that aren't quite here yet as ideas really make me wonder, If you read the quantum linked photon technologies it might be nifty to think on the way quantum linked photon imaging where simultaneity defines an image goes with photosynthesis being a simultaneous two photon event; I can think of a diffuse optical mechanism plants could use to do communication + sensing yet its very mysterious

I don't know if kirilian photography is accepted or not, if it is the two photon nature of both quantum distance imaging as well as creating a kirilian image of plant emanations may be an associated effect of photosynthesis It seems like moisture would be the thing but it actually could be linked photons as simultaneous photons are the drivers of photosynthesis

I think people would have noticed plants emitting light
-- beanangel, May 10 2010


I do. Emit light that is, and see plants that do. Don't you?
-- blissmiss, May 11 2010


Kirlian photography in itself is accepted but what it shows is not agreed. The mainstream explanation is that it's nothing but coronal discharge.
-- nineteenthly, May 11 2010


I just read that having a different amount of d2 dopamine receptors at the thalamus is associated with creativity

Thus we could make a creativity pill just find the commonest neurotransmitter at the thalamus then create a passivated version of a d2 dopamine agonist to link to that commonest hypothalamic neurotransmitter as a transporter this then attaches to reduce d2 receptor activity specifically at the thalamus (among other places); another approach is to find the highest concentration of an enzyme particular to the thalamus; then attach the modified dopamine d2 antagonist to a chemical group that shiftswith that enzyme such that the dopamine d2 antagonist drug will be particularly active at thalamic tissue)

then find out what the lab mammals do

you show them a fish

The very creative ones create a new form of nuclear fusion

the mildly creative ones think about the tail structure then realize skiff rowers if linked could could actually use their oars out of water pulling to push an adjacent persons oars at the water making recreation rowing zippier

another mildly creative one looks at the fish then thinks up the wwwwww surface of the nordic ski; then thinks up the nordic ski, only they didn't know it had already been made plus had been surpassed with the koosh ski

another mildly to wildly creative one says: Fi Sssssssh! (-fifofum) naughty giant don't wake up Jacqueline the true feminist story of the beanstalk then writes an entire novella during the test period completely ignoring the researchers methodology

a slightly autistic or just mathematical one notes that F, I, 5, H are all geometric factors of [][]; then proceeds to develop a minimalist mathermatics where 8- (_|)=(F); (I) has 4 positional values and that 8 -(5) = (.') as well as 8-(H)=(=)

a diversily educated one just writes "ghoti" which they have previously read about; which seems uncreative yet having wide vocabulary does create a wider group of possible ideas; I mean, they were just a few synaptic impulses away from thinking of GHotty; the new improved version of hotornot.com

also, the opposite pill might reduce symptoms or cure schizophrenia
-- beanangel, May 22 2010


Sometimes you have to prune your associations.
-- nineteenthly, May 22 2010


This is not some of his better work.
-- WcW, May 22 2010


//Thus we could make a creativity pill//
Correct. D2 selective dopamine agonists, in moderate doses, cause people to see figures in clouds, faces in shrubbery, things like that. In higher doses, they cause hallucinations, usually visual, often described as amusing and entertaining, similar to watching TV. In even higher doses, psychosis.

//the opposite pill might reduce symptoms or cure schizophrenia//
Also correct. Most antipsychotics are dopamine antagonists. Unfortunately, they don't cure schizophrenia, only suppress some of the symptoms. Also, they have the nasty habit of causing side effects that don't go away when you stop taking the drug.

//Sometimes you have to prune your associations.//
Also correct. Very, very correct.
-- mouseposture, May 22 2010



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