Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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Everyone is their own currency

Society has a cordination problem. You need a lot of money and people in one place to do any significant good - build a hospital or build a sustainable business. The problem is money is printed when debt is created so it is based on debt. I propose everyone is a currency as a replacement idea.
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If someone accepts chronological coins they are entitled to a proportion of my generated output on everything I do.

So anything I do includes profit from my assets, profit from my work, and profit caused my being alive

So if I buy some thing from a shop, that causes all these jobs to be created, so I caused that. The buyer should get a reward in addition to the product purchased. Its a signal for society coordination.

The market does indeed solve many problems but the signal Is too slow. Venture capital is too inefficient. It takes years to produce anything. Why not find the valuable people in society by valuing people directly?

You know how some companies donate to charity based on the price of item sold? I saw it on shampoo they donate 5p to charity for every product sold. It's kind of pointless as it simply increases the product price by 5p or the profit less 5p. Same idea applies to cashback and free gifts. It's a pointless gesture and it is caused by lack of a buying demand signal.

So everyone has an exchange rate chronological coin is worth some thing based on my intellectual output in society and my qualifications. So we can have a full meritocracy. If you have a job that generates a high salary then everyone will want to hold coin of your name

If everyone was a currency there could be an exchange market that guarantees the minimum products that someone could always be capable of affording. Such as staple foods and shelter. This is basic income by the back door.

Now if there is a group of builders in town and they are worth a lot of money as they are useful and their coin is valuable due to their production being beneficial to society.

People could ask them to build a shopping mall and they could be entitled to a portion of the profit from business generated by all the shops in the mall So they take part in the gains and production

Or the people want a hospital built, all the builders of hospitals receive coins from all the potential patients in the city. They gain whenever patient is treated or cured. They benefit from building the hospital.

So people a cross between a bond and income generating share.

chronological, Apr 06 2022

Chris Cook discusses concepts of profit sharing and other technical stuff vaguely relevant to this idea https://www.planetc...ts-serve-people?s=r
[pocmloc, Apr 07 2022]

North American Weather Butterfly rest stop https://urquhartbutterfly.com/about/
Lorenz may have studied here [Sgt Teacup, Apr 07 2022]

Time Futures Time_20Futures
[DrBob, Apr 08 2022]

In Praise of Idleness https://harpers.org...praise-of-idleness/
[Voice, Apr 14 2022]

https://www.newyork...e-way-of-the-future [a1, Jul 28 2022]

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       I don't get it. I'm imagining I am a money-issuing entity. I make pretty coins. Now what makes anyone else want my coins such that I can trade them for petrol? And what makes me want my boss's coins? How does the petrol station know my boss is good for the debt they represent? What is my boss supposed to supply in return for his coins? Is it my labor?
Voice, Apr 06 2022

       People who hold your coins are entitled to returns you generate in society.   

       So they're worth something. We need super advanced accounting so people can be credited for what they cause. Think of accounting for good causes and effects
chronological, Apr 06 2022

       So you're proposing a centralized value tracking system that returns the value of each person's labor?   

       This is as impractical as possible for a theoretically workable system to be. You've managed to combine the worst aspects of communism, capitalism, and fascism. I'm actually impressed. [+]
Voice, Apr 06 2022

       //We need super advanced accounting so people can be credited for what they cause. //   

       Somewhere in the Amazon, an insurance company sends a team of lawyers and accountants to try to verify the identity of a particular butterfly, and distrain its assets.
pertinax, Apr 07 2022

       I understand there are people working on this kind of peer-to-peer profit sharing bond. A modern day version of the engineer (watt?) Supplying a nimproved mine pumping engine at no cost but in return for half of the coal saved.
pocmloc, Apr 07 2022

       I can see a large proportion of the world's currency becoming valueless if Bezos sent a dick pic to a union rep. See Putin.
4and20, Apr 07 2022

       Voice, A1 I thought I was being good with this idea.   

       You're right I combined the qualities of capitalism with communism. But not deliberately I just took ideas that I like.   

       I think people deserve a return for the buying signal they produce in society. If you're popular or successful, people should benefit from you. It's no longer a winner take all system but a shared spread out of prosperity.
chronological, Apr 07 2022

       //identity of a particular butterfly//Camp Teacup can neither confirm nor deny that that particular Butterfly may or may not be in our Witness Protection program; as you know, the yearly Canada-Mexico migration is fraught with peril and the possibility of kidnapping (see link).
Sgt Teacup, Apr 07 2022

       I would also like to point out that 4 or more British banks have been allowed to print their own money for dogs' years, but it does come with some risks. Good luck trying to change those bills overseas. Also, shops in England proper have complete latitude regarding whether they choose to accept such currency or not.
4and20, Apr 07 2022

       I'm stealing 'nimproved.' It seems like the opposite of improved somehow, like improved by a nincompoop.
RayfordSteele, Apr 07 2022

       DrBob your idea of time futures is very similar to part of this idea.
chronological, Apr 08 2022

       // I understand there are people working on this kind of peer-to-peer profit sharing bond.   

       pocmloc, do you know if they are cryptocurrencies?
chronological, Apr 08 2022

       //do you know if they are...// By "They" do you mean the people, or the things they are working on?   

       Either way, the answer is "no".   

       Did you listen to Chris Cook's interview?
pocmloc, Apr 08 2022

       Yes I am listening to it.   

       I like the idea of housing co operatives. I like the idea of rental or care credit for looking after a place.   

       Housing is such a serious issue. It's not affordable.   

       Landlords or commodization of land leads to terrible behaviours. Markets do not serve the people.
chronological, Apr 11 2022

       I'd say the market economy is the heart that pumps the life blood of civilization. The propriety or effectiveness of how that blood is directed and controlled after the markets generate it is certainly a topic for discussion, but person A growing wheat and trading some of it to person B in exchange for bringing that wheat to market is why we have wheat.
doctorremulac3, Apr 11 2022

       I am arguing from the perspective of the Chris Cook interview pocmloc shared. Markets do not serve every participant or stakeholder or externalities at present. You only need to look at the retail and residential property market to see that it doesn't serve its customers very well.
chronological, Apr 12 2022

       I would sat that since markets are artificial constructs, and rely on authorities to set rules and enforce contracts etc. it seems obvious that the market would be run to benefit those doing the organising and setting the rules. Any benefit to market participants would be incidental to that.
pocmloc, Apr 12 2022

       However, to the extent there is a meta-market, so that participants can choose between one market and another, the artificial constructs might tend to evolve somewhat in the interests of participants.   

       However else, though, this argument breaks down to the extent that the most mobile, best capitalised, most arbitrage-enabled market participants may not be a distinct class of people from the class of people setting the rules and enforcing the contracts, and may, on the other hand, be a distinct class from the majority of market participants.
pertinax, Apr 12 2022

       If it rewards insufficiently people won't choose to participate.
Voice, Apr 12 2022

       If your mine needs to be pumped and contains Nims, then a Nimproved mine pumping engine is the best mine pumping engine for the job in my opinion.   

       // If someone accepts chronological coins they are entitled to a proportion of my generated output on everything I do. // So, if you spend 10% of your future output on a house, 2% on a car, etc. etc. until you've promised 100% of future output, then what happens? I don't see any reason to continue working since you won't get any of the profits anyway.
scad mientist, Apr 13 2022

       //If your mine needs to be pumped and contains Nims// Only if it is proven to contain them!
pocmloc, Apr 13 2022

       Scad mientist, if you want to eat you must work unless you're not capable of working or providing a useful service to someone else with or without property. There was a company that employed not capable people called Remploy but it was shut down by government.   

       I ask you a question to your question. A builder of a house shelters you from the elements for as long as the house exists and is maintained. They are less parasitic than a landlord. They deserve some thing for providing the lasting value of shelter.   

       Likewise if I build some software that everyone in the world uses or add to world knowledge as a scientist or philosopher or theologian or prophesy or researcher then do I deserve some thing for this addition to human beings?   

       We have value added tax in certain countries. You provide value in excess of your inputs. I think for some people they provide lasting benefit and should be compensated to this.   

       Take for instance a garbage collector. They provide significant value to everyone on a street by keeping everyone's living spaces clean and without garbage. From my perspective that person deserves a portion from every individual on the street. The pay they receive is a one off payment but the service of taking away garbage is lasting and durable. The garbage not being present is enjoyed for a lot of time after the task of removing the garbage is finished. They deserve some thing for this utility.   

       I am bold enough to say that the garbage man deserves a bearing return of keeping the street clean for the utility is beyond the simple task of taking the garbage away.   

       My coffee delivery driver or McDonald's delivery driver cannot afford the coffee or the food I buy as the cost of the food and delivery service is more than the cost of the delivery service driver remuneration. Thus this is not a justice. Money and society is hierarchical, the servants cannot afford the service they provide.
chronological, Apr 13 2022

       If you declare 100% of your output that would cause you to be regarded as a slave and must be prevented   

       In the UK the government tries to encourage people to go off welfare and into self propelled labour in return for money by reducing benefits/welfare received by a certain proportion for every additional £1 earned.
chronological, Apr 13 2022

       You must always be capable of printing new coins or new money into existence. Inflating the supply of money but devaluing the currency of yourself in circulation.   

       You should always be capable of buying bread and shelter with your coins. Mathematically this is possible. We need an algorithm or formula that grows all the time but is fair and not usurious.   

       Value added grows all the time. Every day you work is a utility to your employer. Every widget you create is valued at a certain amount for the utility of the widget and the durable value that is supplied by every usage of that widget   

       We don't measure the utility of a widget and this is wrong.
chronological, Apr 13 2022

       //the cost of the food and delivery service is more than the cost of the delivery service driver remuneration//   

       Yes but that is a given.
Price you pay for coffee = £Q
Delivery driver pay = £a
Capital cost of van amortised over its useful life = £b
Running cost of van (to include fuel, consumables, parts, and labour) = £c
Barista pay = £d
Capital cost of coffee machine amortised over its useful life = £e
Running cost of coffee machine (to include power, water, consumables, parts, labour) = £f
Capital cost of premises = £g
Running cost of premises = £h
marketing, communications, admin = £i
Cost of coffee beans = £j

       We will discount anything else that is necessary that I have forgotten.   

       If a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j>Q then the business will make a loss and therefore will stop (or will not start in the first place).   

       Assume the most optimal case where a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j=Q   

       Simple algebra will demonstrate that a=Q-(b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j)   

       And since it is easy to demonstrate that b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j>0   

       We must conclude that, by necessity, Q>a
pocmloc, Apr 13 2022

       I like your explanation pocmloc   

       The outcome is that some people are destined or fated to serve others all of their beings as working poor and unable to afford any thing they add to.   

       I think it's a mathematical not justice.   

       It's a hierarchical society. There are masters and servants.   

       I can afford Q due to generating an excess of a. But everyone that serves me cannot. It causes negative feelings to me. It's a mathematical prison.
chronological, Apr 13 2022

       I believe a related idea is the alienation of work by Marx and what Chris Cook talked of during that interview of "fructus" the entitlement to the gains of property.
chronological, Apr 13 2022

       I think it is entropy. It is the actual thing that the Universe runs on.   

       The road to ruin is to try and beat entropy. The more effort you put into designing a perpetual motion machine, the more energy you have wasted.   

       Money is only a token of account for energy, materials and services in the real world. Any theory or account of economics that focusses on designing or tweaking a money system and ignores the underlying real economy of energy goods and services is like polishing the bearings of a perpetual motion machine or adding ever more refined control and monitoring systems to it.
pocmloc, Apr 13 2022

       // We must conclude that, by necessity, Q>a //   

       I like that line of thinking, but what you didn't include is that the delivery driver probably delivers more items per day than they would be able to personally consume. Therefore there is no mathematical law saying that a service worker cannot afford the service that they provide.   

       In the case of coffee delivery, that's likely because delivering coffee is a low-skilled job (could be preformed by a significant portion of the population with no more than a couple hours of training), and it could be considered a luxury service (I've never paid someone to deliver a cup of coffee).   

       If you consider a more skilled service job, such as a dental hygienist, they perform many cleanings per day, and can easily afford to pay for 2 cleanings per year for themselves.
scad mientist, Apr 14 2022

       // If you declare 100% of your output that would cause you to be regarded as a slave and must be prevented //   

       // Scad mientist, if you want to eat you must work unless you're not capable //   

       I guess that's why I don't like this idea. It basically is allowing people to sell themselves into slavery (or partial slavery if 100% isn't allowed). If you can withhold food from those that refuse to work, that's kind of like beating your slaves.   

       // You must always be capable of printing new coins or new money into existence. Inflating the supply of money but devaluing the currency of yourself in circulation. //   

       That fixes the slavery problem, but it makes your currency worthless if you can devalue it at any time. If there is a fixed rate at which you devalue it, then basically you are selling your services for a fixed length of time, which isn't too bad, but it will make the loan approval process much harder than an traditional loan since the lender needs to figure out how much you are likely to make during the time you work for them.   

       I don't disagree that there are some problems in our current economic system as you point out, but I don't see this idea as a viable solution.
scad mientist, Apr 14 2022

       //I can afford Q due to generating an excess of a. But everyone that serves me cannot. It causes negative feelings to me. It's a mathematical prison.//   

       It is a puzzle, nothing more.
Is it fair? No.
Will it change any time soon? No.

       I went another route.
I sacrificed time to enable wealth without knowing if there would be enough time to pull it off.
Decades in fact.
It totally depends on an infrastructure designed to allow somebody coming from a position of starting with nothing to pull it off if they have enough grit.

       Now that I have carved out a place where it will take others to work under me to continue I will not do them wrong... but they will have to make their own ways. There's no free ride.   

       [scad] I was talking per unit. The delivery driver cannot use his or her wages to purchase more deliveries than the number that they make. Or even as many.
pocmloc, Apr 14 2022

       Productivity is needed.
Voice, Apr 14 2022

       2 fries shy of a happy meal   

       You either sacrifice time or money for easiness during being   

       I sacrifice money for easiness. I wilt eventually need to return to work but I want to do something meaningful with my skills.   

       I am happy to pay people to do things for me so I'm happy paying for food delivery and delicious food preparation services. If you're in the UK there is a cultural aspect to ready meals and Cook sells decent food.   

       I agree with you that entropy is a problem and it requires regular repeated work to keep a garden free of weeds and beautiful and growing food you want. The ground is cursed as regarding Genesis 3:17.   

       When you go to a hotel, holiday resort or restaurant I describe it as good and enjoyable as you're not the one doing the carrying, lifting, preparing food, cleaning and working.   

       Behind the scenes someone is cleaning the rooms, replacing sheets on beds, cleaning toilets. Someone else is a chef rushing out meals to people in the restaurant.   

       How do we give everyone the experience of being served and being master fairly.   

       In monasteries everyone works. In house shares people take turns doing chores.   

       There was a community of people as breakaway society people that do farming and live independently but has the problem that newcomers don't like the chores that need to be done to truly be independent so they leave to rejoin wider society.   

       Everyone depends on someone else to do the dirty work. And there is the free rider problem where someone doesn't need to add to the system to benefit from it - so they rationally decide not to add anything of value they just allow or let themselves benefit from the advantage.
chronological, Apr 14 2022

       Having individual currencies would be unworkable, since our labor is not fungible. What is basically described is a barter system, only with labor instead of physical goods. How do you work out an exchange rate, in real-time?   

       Having a job is similar... In a way you are issuing a bond for your labor, however the price is usually based on the labor, not necessarily you. You enter a contract to cook burgers for an amount of time, in exchange for a meager pittance and a degrading uniform. Rarely is the situation like, "Hello, I'm Keanu Reeves, pay me money because I'm Keanu Reeves."
xrayTed, Aug 02 2022


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