Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
h a l f b a k e r y
Guitar Hero: 4'33"

idea: add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random

meta: news, help, about, links, report a problem

account: browse anonymously, or get an account and write.

user:
pass:
register,


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Just thought you should know

[marked-for-expiry]
 
(+6, -6)
  [vote for,
against]

We went on vacation for a week.
(several years overdue from extenuating circumstances we are not supposed to talk about)
Couple of things I noticed;

One; Mexico has to chem-trails. It would be far too obvious in a region which can not form con-trails.

Two; when I get back Trudon't has imposed legislation so that YuToob has completely changed over night.
Any and all videos once pertaining to Trudon't and the Freedon't convey have disappeared and been replaced, (for a very short amount of time with "easy listening music") and now no more free speech.

In fucking Canada people!

...

Still think I'm just an anti-vax conspiracy theorist and that all is good?

I don't know about any of you...
...but I've had enough.


Is the youtube thing about this? https://www.arabnew.../node/2257646/media
Possibly unintended consequences? [Loris, Mar 03 2023]

Bill C-11 https://c2cjournal....sor-online-content/
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 03 2023]

Will the Last Person To Leave the Planet Please Shut Off the Sun? https://www.baen.co...81680570434__12.htm
For the longest time I really thought California would stick around, but they finally located a world with a 9,000-mile beach and a native populace that specialized in making sandals and cheap gold jewelry [Voice, Mar 03 2023]

Ghostbusters: Do you believe in... https://www.youtube...watch?v=NFX4fmldZFs
[Voice, Mar 08 2023]

We just ain't gonna pay no toll. https://www.vice.co...al-copycat-protests
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 09 2023]

(?) Funny stuff. https://www.google....6df,vid:fJRGDW4lbss
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 09 2023]

Ass hats in action. https://www.youtube...watch?v=BQlh5t2k-o0
Fucking puppets is what they are. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 10 2023]

Do commercial jets usually fly in circles? https://imgur.com/gallery/k0GLYgD
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 12 2023]

20 miles away and... https://imgur.com/gallery/Xgf1rBW
...oh shit here it comes. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 12 2023]

Insect altitudes https://www.livesci...an-insects-fly.html
[Voice, Mar 12 2023]

cancer deaths UK 2019, 2020 https://www.ons.gov...ntheukin2019and2020
LC02 Cancer (malignant neoplasms) 147,419 and 147,407 [Loris, Mar 13 2023]

cancer deaths uk 2021 https://www.ons.gov...tatistics2021to2022
LC02 Cancer (malignant neoplasms) 144,746 [Loris, Mar 13 2023]

Shockingly low altitude fuel dump https://www.google....ool-trnd/index.html
//Delta Air Lines said the fuel came from Flight 89, which had just taken off from LAX bound for Shanghai, China, when it "experienced an engine issue requiring the aircraft to return quickly to LAX."// 60 people had to be treated for exposure. [21 Quest, Mar 16 2023]

Silver iodide toxicity https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27517140/
//Silver iodide is one of the most common nucleating materials used in cloud seeding.// [21 Quest, Mar 17 2023]

https://youtu.be/Bnu6Zc0s9g4 [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 02 2023]

Earlier today. https://imgur.com/a/jGLtNAQ
About twenty minutes later the temp droped about six degrees an it started to snow. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 04 2023]

Ten minutes earlier than that. https://imgur.com/a/lBk0aH6
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 05 2023]

Problems with contrails https://www.weather...fgz/CloudsContrails
[mylodon, Apr 05 2023]

Who is censoring what? https://www.cbc.ca/...ws-canada-1.6863294
To protest C-18, Meta will block news content for 5% of Canadian users. [a1, Jun 02 2023]

Anti-faxxers https://arstechnica...rs-frontiers-recap/
Lessons learned [a1, Jun 03 2023]

s'truth https://www.youtube...watch?v=k5ukKf4vi6g
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jun 04 2023]

Woody Harrelson on SNL https://www.nbc.com...logue/NBCE052549914
(direct from NBC, not youtube) [a1, Jun 04 2023, last modified Jun 08 2023]

Selected reactions to his monologue https://www.google....elson+SNL+monologue
[a1, Jun 04 2023]

Some stuff about China lockdowns https://www.theguar...-xi-lockdowns-china
[pertinax, Jun 09 2023]

Playback Apr 3 2023 air traffic near [2 Fries] location https://globe.adsbe...49.016&lon=-118.431
[a1, Dec 18 2023, last modified Dec 20 2023]

Screen match Monday, 03 Apr 23, 20:10:40Z https://ibb.co/ZfJJqjD
ADSB history on left, extract from [2f] video on right [a1, Dec 20 2023]

Planes most likely to have left contrails earlier https://ibb.co/0rZ1z2N
Most likely candidates by time, distance, and altitude [a1, Dec 20 2023]

SEVEN airlines making diversions near Christina Lake https://globe.adsbe...howTrace=2021-03-01
March 2021 - right place but maybe wrong time for your video? [a1, Dec 21 2023, last modified Dec 26 2023]

Another big jet circling likely visible south of Christina Lake https://globe.adsbe...imestamp=1701830292
Tue Dec 05 2023 18:38:12 GMT-0800 [a1, Dec 27 2023]

The psychic in October 2019: https://web.archive...a/Belle_20E_20Acres
No sense of what happens next: "... Some of you may remember I said I had decided to go with land rather than my inventions with the nest-egg my wife and I have been able to scrounge..." [a1, Jan 01 2024]

The psychic in March 2020: https://web.archive...0didn_27t_20like_2e
Barest trace of foreshadowing here: "... this Caronavirus thing might really throw a wrench in the works ... I honestly don't know for sure if we'll be able to pull this off with the whole planet seemingly going nuts just as we dive head first into the tourist industry..." [a1, Jan 01 2024]

[link]






       That might warrant some experiments using a VPN. Run the same youtube searches in two different conditions - one where the VPN pretends that you're outside Canada, and one where it doesn't.   

       Can you name the specific legislation that Trudeau has introduced, and have you raised this with any existing civil liberties organisations?
pertinax, Mar 03 2023
  

       //Still think I'm just an anti-vax conspiracy theorist//   

       Honestly, no, it sounds like you're going for the full bingo card.
Loris, Mar 03 2023
  

       I got all the vaccines and boosters and now I can host three way conversations with Bill Gates and aliens just by rotating a coat hanger above my head (the tuner) and placing my hand on a transistor radio (the speaker/receiver component).
xenzag, Mar 03 2023
  

       //Can you name the specific legislation that Trudeau has introduced//   

       There was no 'new' legislation involved in the now widely reported censorship of some things on Twitter in the US pre-Elon was there .. it seems they pretty much just 'asked politely' and were invited to insert their own people into the company / admin chain .. so why expect any particular legislation in Canada for a similar thing with a similar company?
Skewed, Mar 03 2023
  

       Bill c-11 The on-line streaming act.   

       The little Tater Dick has seen to it that any dissent has been silenced... democratically.   

       //have you raised this with any existing civil liberties organisations?//   

       Oh they know. [link]   

       I know the FBI, and other agencies are coming out and saying the pandemic might have originated from a lab, but I know zoonotic transmission is impossible in a lab.   

       Pangolins and bats get shy around all those lab coats so they can't kiss like they can in a wet market. Put yourself in their place, would you feel romantic with all those test tubes and boiling beakers around? Not likely. Especially if they're studying bat viruses at that lab which was the case in Wuhan. That frankly would be a real turnoff for the pangolins.   

       Follow the science people.   

       (Bun for not liking Trudope and that fascist, 1984 style thought-crime law) [+]
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       Ugh! He's such a douche.
He and his entire party should be tied to chairs while each and every citizen gets to give them one good slap a piece.
  

       It's like my biggest fear in life coming full tilt.
The entire population of Earth loses its sanity and I'm the last one left with his faculties intact.
I can think of few things more terrifying.
  

       I cleared my browser history and connected through a Canadian IP address, but I got recommendations that show Google still knows who I am. If I were less lazy I would. Oh what the hell, may as well, just a minute... Does anyone know how to specify a Canadian bridge through TOR? nm, got it, just a minute...

Okay, Mr. Fries, Which searches will, if your theory is correct, return different results between Canada and, say, the UK?
Voice, Mar 03 2023
  

       I realized something about fascism that won't make you feel any better.   

       Fascists don't have to be right, they just have to be part of a hive mind, not ask questions, do what their told and target who they're programmed to target.   

       Free people unfortunately might disagree on stuff, be right sometimes, and wrong other times, but they don't tend to band together. Fascist's number one, and arguably ONLY overarching common attribute is being groupists and agreeing to target anybody outside that group as they're instructed to.   

       Doesn't matter if the goal is making sure all candy bars are extra crunchy and delicious, the goal doesn't matter, it's attaining that goal at the expense of anybody outside that group that draws the fascists together. "Sir, come with us, you're under arrest for the not adhering to the "Candybarcruncydeliciosidy Act". Your candy bars are clearly soft and chewy, to the gulag with you."   

       Then if you're an actual sane human being with a shred of humanity and say "Hey, that's not right!" the fascist mind drones hit you with "Ohh, what've we got here, a crunchy candy bar hater!"   

       The goals can even flip 180 degrees, that's the point. It ain't the goal, it's the control.   

       Hey, that rhymes.
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       That's group think, not fascism.
Voice, Mar 03 2023
  

       My point was that the prerequisite to fascism IS groupthink. Without it there is no fascism.   

       "The fascists had a meeting today, half want gulags for soggy candy bar makers and half want soggy candy bar makers to run the party."   

       Not a lot of fascisming going on with that group.   

       But this makes a great point. We can't even agree on what fascism is? The fascist sure can. It's anybody who deviates from the prescribed groupthink, whatever that might be at any particular time.
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       Let X be a sub-group of group thinkers, such as fascists, or feminists, or communists, or republicans. The phrase //Fascists don't have to be right, they just have to be part of a hive mind// can equally well start with one of the other words and still be right, to the extent that it is right. Therefore narrowing the phrase to one subgroup inappropriately defines that subgroup as the whole group. There are group-thinkers who are not fascists, and so starting the sentence with "group thinkers" is not only the right way to make the claim, but the ONLY right way to make the claim.
Voice, Mar 03 2023
  

       //Okay, Mr. Fries, Which searches will, if your theory is correct, return different results between Canada and, say, the UK?//   

       It's not the search part, it's that not one single anti-Trudea or pro-Convoy video is now allowed to surface unless searched for specifically, at which point your IP address is probably flagged by the CRTC.   

       A videos popularity no longer factors in. Paying to have your content stay on the front page no longer factors in.   

       Our government has given itself the power to silence anything it disagrees with for any reason at all with it's vaguely worded and contradictory legislation.   

       Our palms are going to be SO bruised.   

       (V) I understood everything you said up to "Let X be a sub-group"   

       I think you might be saying there are group thinkers who are not fascists, which is like saying "Not all people who agree about something want to commit genocide against those who disagree with them."   

       Which, since I'm losing interest, I'll just say "No, anybody who agrees with anybody else about anything is worse than Hitler." It can be "Hey, it's a sunny day today!" "I agree." <--- Nazis.   

       But again, the fact that we can't even agree with what a fascist is, well... kind of makes my point.   

       Which you should take as a compliment if you read between the lines.
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       Okay, here's what the dictionary says, and I disagree with two points.   

       "A fascist is someone who supports or promotes fascism—a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism."   

       Ignoring the "well duh" "A fascist is somebody who promotes fascism" waste of words, in my opinion, there are fascist governments that are not led by dictators and the big fascist movement today is decidedly non-nationalistic, it's globalist.   

       In my opinion, which, again to make my point, won't be agreed on by all, which is fine. But if we were fascists, we'd have one narrative that we wouldn't be allowed to differ from.   

       Anyway, moving on.
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       I would like to explore, if I may, the concept of "group thinkers". It comes laden with implication about both (a) who would fall into the set of "group thinkers" and (b) who would not fall into the set of "group thinkers". We need some more rigour about the characteristics that drive set membership. The discussion so far assumes - possibly as a rhetorical shorthand - that "group thinkers" can be identified by categorical markers (e.g. fascists, feminists, communists). If you a member of this group, you are a group thinker. I question the accuracy and the usefulness of this (hopefully rhetorically shorthandrical) approach.   

       [For what follows, I want to take some of the heat out of the "group thinker" categories, so I will shy away from "fascist" or "feminist" and instead use as a placeholder a group with known ideological consistency.]   

       My contention is that being a member of a group which has a superficial ideological consistency is not in and of itself enough to identify member of that group as members of the set of "group thinkers". My preferred example: Presbyterians. Presbyterians are known as a group for their ideological resistance to Marianism, to the Tyranny of Bishops and to fun. From the outside perspective, they may be group thinkers. But they are not, as the existence in tiny, marginal Scotland of each of <tim rogers>the Church of Scotland, the Free Church of Scotland, the United Free Church of Scotland, the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), the Associated Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland and the International Presbyterian Church </tim rogers> will attest. This small community - only 30% of Scots consider themselves Protestant, which gives you a max group think group of 1.6m (which is in reality vastly smaller as, for reasons I won't go into right now, "Protestant" in Scotland can also mean (1) not Catholic or (2) hates Celtic Football Club) that somehow manages to contrive eight - eight! - sub groups. Seven reformational schisms within the group set!   

       All of which ecclesiastical politicking is intended to illustrate that starting from the position that ascribing any sort of "group think" to an ideological group is not accurate and even shorthanding with categorical markers runs the risk of giving the impression that the position which uses those markers is itself not well thought out.   

       Returning to "fascism", I have never been a fascist and don't intend to become one (even though I am approaching the age where purchases of the Daily Mail become more likely), but I do think that its probable that even within a group which is characterised by top down, strongman leadership and ideological consistency there is some diversity of thought. Similarly, you only need a passing understanding (which is my level of understanding) of what happened in Russia in the early 20th century to know that communist thought was relatively diverse and communism wasn't consistently pursued or applied within the group of "communists". And the wars and schisms within feminism itself are so well known they are being weaponised against women, from without. I don't know much about American politics but I would expect there is some diversity of thought within the Republican Party? Anyway.   

       Swinging in the other direction, I am generally of the view that there exists in the world not a single individual who is free of some measure of social pressure on their thinking. The notion that the approach of "apply the scientific method and make your *own* conclusions" frees an individual from the risks of groupthink is, in my view, false. While I am generally a fan of the scientific method (for science, particularly) and considering evidence and making an informed decision (hello, to any clients reading this), my concern is that making this your stated approach runs a real risk of being - generally inadvertently - an excuse for and a mask of the biases and group think that underpin (a) the selection process for evidence and (b) the thinking that drives the journey from evidence selection to final conclusion.   

       In conclusion: fascism sucks.   

       In conclusion: [marked-for-deletion] not an idea.
calum, Mar 03 2023
  

       Let me clarify my group think / fascist comparison.   

       All fascists are group thinkers, but not all group thinkers are fascists.
doctorremulac3, Mar 03 2023
  

       I *am* a true Scotsman, btw
calum, Mar 03 2023
  

       [calum] I thought the point was that there was //no true Scotsman//?   

       Or is it like being a spy, if you say you are one that proves you can't be?
pocmloc, Mar 03 2023
  

       // I thought the point was that there was //no true Scotsman//?
Or is it like being a spy, if you say you are one that proves you can't be?//
  

       No, it's in reference to a way of weaseling out of a previous statement.   

       Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge." Person A: "But no /true/ Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."   

       (copy-pasted from the wikipedia page)
Loris, Mar 03 2023
  

       I just know that no true Canadian puts maple syrup on a schnitzel, and that's what Trudouche is doing.   

       But no true Scotsman ever weasels out of a previous statement.
pocmloc, Mar 04 2023
  

       //Which searches//   

       I was too lazy to actually do the experiment, but I was thinking of "Canada Freedom Convoy"
pertinax, Mar 04 2023
  

       //Bill c-11//   

       Thank you.   

       //they know//   

       That's a good start, but I was wondering whether they'd taken any action. You might try meeting up with the local chapter, to see if you could interest them in, say, a letter-writing campaign, or see whether they have any other suggestions for action.
pertinax, Mar 04 2023
  

       All of those campaigns are already underway with folks screaming bloody murder. It is ignored.   

       I don't think you guys get just how un-Canada like it is here now.
There is a very large body of evidence piling up that our elections were majorly interfered with by China.
There are even Chinese police stations popping up in our major cities now.
Trudon't was groomed for this job and is beholden only to those who put him there and sees no need for an inquiry into the alegations against him and his party.
He has used bill C-11 which is supposed to rid hate-speech from the net, to instead drop any and all dissent to the bottom of the pile unless specifically searched for.
  

       I think they fully realize that we have the ability to de-fund our federal government legally as they have never passed federal income tax into law.
Paying federal income tax is not mandatory here.
We volunteer to pay it to fund WW2 and that arm of government was to be disbanded once that earlier crisis was over.
Instead it morphed into a secondary provincial government for Ontario and Quebec to extort ever increasing taxes from the fringes of Canada and they think that there is dick all we can do about it because we are just a "small fringe minority with, uh, unacceptable views. Misogynists, rapists, and baby-killing, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorists" the lot of us.
  

       We refused to hand over our weapons for a very good reason and if that little shit thinks we're going to let him and his sell-outs to hand us over to China...   

       ...well then maybe its time to stop funding them.
En masse.
  

       Wouldn't that be a fine display of 'real' democracy in action?
When the actual majority all decide to vote with their wallets.
  

       No ballot boxes to tamper with that way... and good luck arresting a majority of your citizens for breaking laws which don't exist.   

       For whatever it's worth, lots of Americans stand with our Canadian brothers and sisters up there, including this one.
doctorremulac3, Mar 04 2023
  

       Good to know since we are all technically in the same boat, but being captained by different sell-outs.   

       A reckoning is coming.   

       I cannot talk about the rest of the world since I'm in Israel...   

       So just wanted to mention that Wuhan sounds like a lot of fun. No? I jump for joy every time I hear that city's name.   

       Anyway, I'm glad this post is not about any personal information or health issues. For a minute I was worried.
pashute, Mar 04 2023
  

       I didn't see the title that way before. Yes I see how it might indicate something other than what I posted.
My apologies and, I am at a loss for words, gladness, I guess, that somebody out there was worried that I might be telling bad personal news.
  

       <fist bump>
[2friesland] is okay for now.
<knocks-on-wood>
  

       The word Wuhan does indeed sound like a lot of fun, but in the same way that Water-Boarding at Guantanamo bay for the weekend also sounds like fun.   

       The narratives are now jokes.   

       //somebody out there was worried that I might be telling bad personal news.//   

       Yea, I was a bit freaked out by the title as well. We don't need to loose another good person here.   

       Glad you're okay.
doctorremulac3, Mar 05 2023
  

       Sorry for the misunderstanding, the point was that it ain't happening here.   

       You lost me somewhere at chemtrails.
RayfordSteele, Mar 07 2023
  

       ^ You must be lost in Mexico. (Or Canada)
xandram, Mar 08 2023
  

       //You lost me somewhere at chemtrails.//   

       Well you should check that out then because all of our governments admit to releasing chemicals at altitude to change the albedo of the Earth and have been lying to us about it.   

       Wait til you find out that Sasquatch is real, that Epstein didn't hang himself, that the injections they forced 'almost' everyone on the planet to take are not vaccines but accelerated death in a needle, and that the plandemic, with all of its associated pain and fuckery, was completely intentional and premeditated.   

       ...and that this was just the trial run.   

       Well of course... that's what you're being conditioned to think to detract from how correct my track record is becoming.   

       Cis/white/male = Evil. Sanctioned discrimination.
You can smell it across the board.
Blue eyes?!...
Oh shit, I am SO fucked. One of the most un-racist mofo's any of you will ever meet... and they comin ta git me, with the help of my government. I'm not paranoid, I'm prescient.
  

       I'm not selling anything, that's how you know I'm not full of shit.
We covered this in chapter one, would some after class time help you to grasp the concept.
  

       Where is Canada? What does it do?
xenzag, Mar 09 2023
  

       //Where is Canada?// North. //What does it do?// It stays strong and free. Our freedom convoy was the only thing stopping "them" from keeping the entire planet on lock down for the Plandemic narrative.
Still!
  

       ...and it was only a narrative. A massive con job just as I said.   

       //Don’t say I didn’t warn ya!//   

       That's my line.
How many of you unwillingly gave up your rights?
How many of you gave them up willingly? Gladly even.
How many more tried to force me to give up mine?
  

       How many deaths was this Plandemic narrative responsible for? How many strokes? How many auto immune disorders? How much mental illness?   

       Why are our nurses still unemployed?
Why aren't Fauci and Gates being dragged through the streets?
  

       How many of us are left who weren't either complicit or complacent with that blatantly obvious narrative you still can't admit I've been correct about since day one?   

       Maybe throwing a few more comics at me will render me incorrect.   

       //Our freedom convoy was the only thing stopping "them" from keeping the entire planet on lock down for the Plandemic narrative.//   

       You're talking nonsense now.
Even if it caused some disruption in Canada, and maybe moved the debate slightly there, the rest of the planet gave exactly zero fucks about a couple of truckers protesting in Canada.
  

       And the rest of your questions seem to be based on various random assumptions which I'm not party to.
Loris, Mar 09 2023
  

       //You're talking nonsense now. Even if it caused some disruption in Canada, and maybe moved the debate slightly there, the rest of the planet gave exactly zero fucks about a couple of truckers protesting in Canada.//   

       My ass. [link]
Not sure what parts of the planet didn't give a fuck when even countries as far away as Australia followed suit. Lately Brussels has decided that farm equipment works even better than rigs.
  

       Good on'em!   

       If we hadn't all decided to collectively shove our feet up some asses, then their little narrative would still be playing out.   

       //I'm not trying to persuade you, I'm just sharing a joke or two (or more).//   

       Tough act to follow, but... [link]   

       //My ass. [link]//   

       Well, okay, so taking your Vice article at face value, Canadian truckers are celebrities amongst anti-vaxxers. It wasn't the first protest, by any means... but maybe it was the one which drew their attention.   

       But... well, I'm not sure that proves much. I mean, according to the same article the copycat protests mostly died on their arses, and led to widespread public condemnation:   

       ::Meanwhile, in the UK, plans are being circulated for a “second wave” of convoy protests to descend on the capital on Monday, following an initial protest the previous Monday. That effort was seen as underwhelming – with attendees complaining on Telegram that virtually no one was there – until a group of hardliners surrounded Labour leader Starmer late in the day, angrily spouting misinformation that he had “protected” a notorious paedophile in his previous role as director of public prosecutions.::   

       Horray for the lynch mob!</sarcasm>   

       I'm getting the impression this is a big deal in conspiracist circles. But is that as you claimed: "the only thing stopping "them" from keeping the entire planet on lock down for the Plandemic narrative."   

       No. Because it made no difference to policy, except perhaps to make governments give the police more invasive powers to deal with the protesters.   

       I had to figure out a time-line, but it's clear that the lockdowns and almost all restrictions here at least (and I think most places) were done before Canadian truckers were protesting. How do I know that? Well, looking into it, they were protesting about the expiry of an exemption they had, and I'm pretty sure the reason it was allowed to expire was because the situation was no longer critical.   

       So in the UK, the covid lockdowns happened between March 2020 and about March 2021 (restrictions were incrementally lifted over a couple of months). There were three national lockdowns and various local lockdowns in this period. There were a number of anti-vaxxor protests during this time. The thing is, after this point, basically everyone on the priority list who wanted to be vaccinated, had been. Vaccines were coming out of scarcity, and it wasn't long before essentially everyone was entitled. They were giving out booster shots to all adults by the end of 2021, and outside some pretty serious event there was no prospect of another lockdown.   

       The Canada trucker convoy was in late Jan 2022, so crediting it with causing any relaxation of restrictions is ... well, a bit of a stretch.
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       No mandate was going to lift here.
Our nurses and doctors, (heroes of the pandemic!) were fired for noncompliance and are still unemployed.
Truckers knew that they were next and the farmers after them. Our government stepped WAY past its boundaries And Trudeau was, (and still is) power-trippin balls, so we did something about it, and now the rest of the world can see how corrupt they are. Laughable even.
  

       Stop calling these injections they forced on humanity "vaccines".
Vaccines confer "immunity".
That definition was changed slightly prior to this shit-show allowing world governments to enact the power of mandates given to that previous definition.
Then the drug companies were given exemption from persecution.
...and we all have to become willing guinea pigs who can't question the science because they've fired all of the doctors and scientists not on board with the narrative.
  

       "Safe and effective."
"Stops transmission."
"Cloth masks are effective."
  

       Such an unbelievable crock of shit. Yet more than like 90% of people swallowed it hook line and sinker.
The 1% of wealth on this planet is gaming to become the .1% and divvying us up accordingly.
  

       End game?   

       Castles in the sky for the select few, with the odd boulder tossed down to keep the planet bound serfs in their place.   

       Mark my words.
You 'will' work for food if we don't stop this shit.
  

       I have a theory that masks with sub-N95 filtration actually exacerbate the spread of saliva-bourne viruses. The big, gross droplets and globs of phlegm we cough and sneeze up fall harmlessly to the ground within approximately 6 feet. Hence the social distancing, which DOES help. But the Covid virus is so small that it easily becomes airborne, meaning it clings to droplets of saliva smaller than a surgical mask filterss effectively. That, according to my theory, means that if you cough or sneeze in such a mask, many small droplets which WOULD otherwise fall to the ground a short distance from the sneezer are forced through a mesh much like an atomizing diffuser (think of a cologne spritzer) and POOF out into the air in a lingering viral cloud, which other people will walk through for the next 20 minutes or so.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       Could be.
Was the shit ever airborne?
  

       Do we even have science on that yet? ...or should we just keep trusting what was put in its place?   

       Not sure what was put in its place, I just know that 'real' science demands to be questioned. That's Science.   

       Anything claiming to be science which refuses questioning???   

       That shit ain't science.   

       You better follow it though.   

         

       Or else.   

       //Our nurses and doctors, (heroes of the pandemic!) were fired for noncompliance and are still unemployed.//   

       And good riddance to them.
Putting your patients at unnecessary risk is not acceptable behaviour for health service professionals.
  

         

       //[..] I just know that 'real' science demands to be questioned. That's Science. [..]//   

       Sure. But you know what else is required for science?   

       Actually looking at the evidence and evaluating it carefully.
If that involves things which are unsavoury to you like maths, then you're not really equipped for it.
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       Perhaps.
You know what I am equipped for though? Recognizing and avoiding con men.
  

       Something apparently more than 90% of our population needs to learn.   

       Loris, you know what I cannot abide? The gaslighting. Everything the public needs to know about epidemiology is taught in the K-12 curriculum, usually starting around 6th grade. If you have a highschool diploma or GEG, you're qualified to speak on this topic and offer an informed opinion on the guidance offered by our elected representatives. Despite this, we have been told CONSTANTLY that we, the Public, are not generally qualified to understand such concepts and need scientists to spoon-feed this stuff to us, and anything that doesn't get put in our mouths BY that government spoon is to be distrusted.   

       And yet.... It was that very same government that TAUGHT us all this stuff in the first place!
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       //You know what I am equipped for though? Recognizing and avoiding con men.//   

       It's a useful skill.   

       A common refrain of conspiracy theorists is "Follow the money."
Then they'll usually accuse scientists of being in it for the money, or similar. Because, you see, they get money to do research, so they've got a vested interest in bigging it up, or something.
  

       Unfortunately, however, they often fail to apply this to their own idols. And as a1 alluded to earlier, they're usually aiming to make a tidy profit from stuff they sell, advertising or back-handers. Or all three.
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       //Loris, you know what I cannot abide? The gaslighting. Everything the public needs to know about epidemiology is taught in the K-12 curriculum, usually starting around 6th grade. If you have a highschool diploma or GEG, you're qualified to speak on this topic and offer an informed opinion on the guidance offered by our elected representatives. Despite this, we have been told CONSTANTLY that we, the Public, are not generally qualified to understand such concepts and need scientists to spoon-feed this stuff to us, and anything that doesn't get put in our mouths BY that government spoon is to be distrusted.//   

       To be clear, you think I'm gaslighting you?
Or the government/media is?
  

       Because the thing is, science is hard, and people do get it wrong. Yes, absolutely, scientists make mistakes too.
But knowing a little doesn't make you an expert, and when the level of analysis is people misunderstanding terminology and claiming conspiracy... well, they're /not/ well equipped to make a useful contribution to the debate.
  

       I absolutely agree that people should be able to ask questions and get answers. To be honest, I think I've gone some way out of my way to do that on the halfbakery, to the best of my ability.
But people who are like: ~oh, there were scientists studying coronaviruses in 2018, THEREFORE CONSPIRACY!~
or: ~tens of thousands of people have died since being vaccinated, THEREFORE VACCINES ARE DANGEROUS!~
Well, they're not qualified to make those claims.
  

       I guess I should say that in the UK there was a serious attempt to convey explanations and reasoning for measures taken to the public. The government held a daily briefing for a long time (not perfect, but they /tried/), and the BBC would have people explaining things in various formats - questions given to an expert, explanations by people who work in science communication, etc.
If the USA & Canada don't have that... well, that kind of sucks.
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       I meant the government, not you.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       What I've been shouted down for saying is things like, allowing an approximately 6 month period (from breakout in Wuhan being reported in the Times to the official declared "start" of the pandemic) allowed the virus to spread to every state in the US. Subsequent halting of interstate travel had the effect (intended or otherwise) of turning every state into an isolated cell culture, basically a giant Petri dish. The more cell cultures, as I'm sure you're aware, the more rapid and diverse mutation occurs, resulting in more strains and variants you get in less time.   

       This is highschool level science, but if I said this a year ago I was shouted down angrily for spreading DANGEROUS MISINFORMATION that I'm not qualified to speak on because I don't have a degree in epidemiology.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       Also, while not exactly gaslighting, insisting on calling a group of people who are telling us every day that this virus is vastly different than anything they've ever dealt with before "experts" and shaming us for not jumping at the snap of their fingers every time they give us contradictory guidance is, I think, criminally misleading.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       Stupid spell check... Thanks lol
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       //usually aiming to make a tidy profit from stuff they sell, advertising or back-handers. Or all three.//   

       So... which of those do you think describe me?   

       The thing that was most mind blowing to me was changing the definition of the word vaccine and then calling anyone unwilling to take their non-vaccine an anti-vaxxer.
My God the coercion was insane.
  

       Just listen to these ass-hats. [link]
How did so many of you fall for that bullshit?
  

       "Don't think you can sit beside vaccinated people and put them at risk."   

       Say that again, Trudope. Say it slowly.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2023
  

       //What I've been shouted down for saying is things like, allowing an approximately 6 month period (from breakout in Wuhan being reported in the Times to the official declared "start" of the pandemic) allowed the virus to spread to every state in the US. Subsequent halting of interstate travel had the effect (intended or otherwise) of turning every state into an isolated cell culture, basically a giant Petri dish. The more cell cultures, as I'm sure you're aware, the more rapid and diverse mutation occurs, resulting in more strains and variants you get in less time.//   

       Well, I don't know, I'm not sure this analogy applies.
Sure, if you have a bigger population you'll get more mutations, yes.
  

       I agree that it would be better to block travel before spread occurs. Absolutely. But after you've reached the point of the virus being 'everywhere', I think it may still be beneficial to halt travel between population centres. I acknowledge there are costs for doing that, and that may affect the calculus of whether it should be done.   

       But I disagree that splitting the infected populations up would have detrimental effects to us humans, based on the evolution of the virus like you're implying.
I mean - we can divide beneficial (for the virus) mutations into two broad categories (which are ends of a spectrum, but let's go with the distinction for now):
  

       1) Mutations which are beneficial in one specific environment. That is, adaptations to that environment, for example doing better in high temperatures, or damp environments, or whatever.
2) Mutations which are generally beneficial to all the environments. These are 'generally fitter' viruses which are for example more infectious, /possibly/ more dangerous (fast-spreading viruses don't 'care' about whether they kill a host, only about how much they can spread.
  

       Now if you isolate each state from the others, you reduce spread of the virus overall, which is good - places which are virus-free remain free, and that would keep the risk of a new mutation down.
And places which already have virus at least don't exchange strains. Exchanging the locally-adapted mutations probably isn't that bad, because they're probably worse in the other environment. But it's not good either - this transfer just isn't going to impact the course of the pandemic in any significant way.
  

       However, if a generally beneficial (again, for the virus) mutation spreads, that's worse for everybody. The population in every state gets exposed to the fittest variant of the virus.
And to the extent that recombination occurs, it's even worse than that, because you could potentially merge two independently-arising mutations to make one even worse strain.
  

       So yes, you may end up with more distinctive strains in different places, but that's not a bad thing.   

       Anyway, the point is, there are a lot of decisions in this sort of thing which have some really nuanced factors, and quickly running the idea past your common sense may not be enough. At the start of this pandemic there was a big knowledge gap, and even at the top, decisions had to be made without the full information. And they had advisors armed with a lot more domain knowledge than you or I.   

       Here in the UK, some people made a lot of noise about the delay in introducing travel restrictions, but I think later research found that actually by the time it was in people's awareness, it was already too late for that to have made a difference - the virus was here already, coming in from Europe rather than direct from China.
In this case, I think they were right more by luck than judgement - but bear in mind I don't have the details of how they made the decision.
  

       Conversely, we went into our first lockdown in an incredible rush, after a scientist realised that the modelling didn't include a very important factor, and if infections continued to grow then soon we wouldn't be able to treat all the dangerously ill and a much higher proportion of them would die.
I would say that this was the right thing to do, given the situation.
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       ////usually aiming to make a tidy profit from stuff they sell, advertising or back-handers. Or all three.////   

       //So... which of those do you think describe me?//   

       None and I'm sorry - I wasn't intending to imply that of you. But I wasn't aware you had any sort of leadership position or position of influence in that community?
Loris, Mar 10 2023
  

       Ah, you were referring to conspiracy theorists as con-men. Yes there certainly are a few, but I'm not either of those things.   

       //Ah, you were referring to conspiracy theorists as con-men.//   

       In general? No. The rank and file, the grassroots? They're genuine, if misguided. The scams wouldn't work otherwise.
The leaders, the influencers though? A lot of them, yeah.
The modern-day anti-vaccine movement was kicked off by Andrew Wakefield, who published fraudulent research about one vaccine in an attempt to promote another. This isn't a secret, but he's still kicking about the antivaxxer ecosystem.
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       What got me was the apparent intent behind their reasons for delaying action, at least here in the USA. I can't speak for Europe on this one, but here our leaders said they didn't want to "needlessly" turn away waves of tourists for the Chinese New Year, and they wanted to be able to point the finger at our president and say "look, he's a racist for wanting to close the border". It was so blatantly weaponized politically here that I didn't, and don't, trust a thing they were telling us about it.   

       Also, consider that there are 26 vaccines in the US. Of those, most Americans only actually get 12: the ones for Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, DTaP, Hib, Polio, Pneumococcal, Rotavirus, chickenpox, MMR, meningococcal conjugate, HPV, and Shingles.   

       About half the population gets a 13th vaccine, the flu shot. But have we ever had politicians hurl the "anti vaxxer" label at those who skip the flu shot? How about those who do without the cholera vaccine, or anthrax? How about the adenovirus or Japanese encephalitis, or yellow fever? Are all the Americans who choose not to get those vaccines "anti-vaxxers"?
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       //In general? No. The rank and file, the grassroots? They're genuine, if misguided. The scams wouldn't work otherwise.//   

       Oh I'd say the scam du jour worked just fine on everybody 'not' being saddled with the label "Conspiracy theorist" and "Anti-vaxxer".
I am neither one, but I've been labelled both because of this bullshit propaganda.
  

       //The leaders, the influencers though? A lot of them, yeah. The modern-day anti-vaccine movement was kicked off by Andrew Wakefield, who published fraudulent research about one vaccine in an attempt to promote another. This isn't a secret, but he's still kicking about the antivaxxer ecosystem.//   

       You keep referring to these injections that almost everyone was subjected to as Vaccines.
They are not vaccines and only fit the new definition of the narrative we are being subjected to.
  

       "Vaccines" confer immunity.   

       Do you know anyone who gained immunity to covid by allowing their bodies to be invaded by these injections?   

       If not. Stop calling them vaccines.   

       On a side note:   

       There was this 80 or so year old guy, checking out the market we host, wearing what looked like a red MAGA hat.
I raised an eyebrow because we don't see many of those in Canada and when the guy got close enough for me to read it it said;
  

       Make Trudeau A Drama Teacher Again   

       And I laughed my ass off.   

       //You keep referring to these injections that almost everyone was subjected to as Vaccines.
They are not vaccines and only fit the new definition of the narrative we are being subjected to.
"Vaccines" confer immunity.
Do you know anyone who gained immunity to covid by allowing their bodies to be invaded by these injections?
If not. Stop calling them vaccines.//
  

       I see that you want things to be black and white; all or nothing.
I'm sorry, but not everything in the real world actually works that way.
  

       The immune system is complicated, and deals with multiple different kinds of threat. Some of these are traditionally considered once-in-a-lifetime events, because resistance, once gained, lasts very well. Vaccines against some of these diseases were relatively easy, and we've had them for a long time. But some diseases try to evade the immune system in a way which makes them easily 'forgotten'. It shouldn't really be a surprise that vaccines against those don't confer permanent protection to everybody.   

       But even the long-lived vaccines probably aren't 100%. Besides people with immune system issues, there will likely be the odd breakthrough case. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing which makes a big news splash, so for the most part it probably just goes without remark.   

       And of course there are diseases in-between. Some vaccines for things like tetanus need a booster if they are to give good protection. Did you forget those, and do you want to rule them in or out?
If you or someone in your family stood on a rusty nail tomorrow, and hadn't had a tetanus vaccine shot in the last 10 years, would you honestly not take them to get one ASAP?
  

       And then there are a number of vaccines which give an overall (but not 100%) level of protection. Like the monkeypox vaccine, apparently. These provide individual benefit, although the protection may only be clear at the population level.   

       But no, please, do go on, keep on giving us your incorrect semantic rant about how vaccines aren't real, and ignore the fact that the real world is getting on with things in spite of you.
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       Okay. Yes I am aware of all of the facts you've stated instead of answering my questions.   

       Am I wrong in my assertion that the word immunity was removed from the definition of the word vaccine? and did this definition change ultimately determine our governments ability to enact mandates?   

       Everything else you've, said while sounding very conciliatory, does not address my Very valid questions by deflecting attention towards the inadequacy of my credentials to even be allowed to ask them.   

       They are two yes or no questions.   

       ...and they are valid.   

       You just don't want to answer them.   

       Here's my personal anecdote (make of this what you will). I'm a taxi driver. Own my taxi business, actually, but I'm out there every day with my drivers hauling passengers, sometimes well over a dozen a day, in the close unventilated confines of a Mercury Grand Marquis. I didn't wear a mask, nor did about half the folks who rode with me. Didn't skip a single day during the "pandemic", and my unvaccinated ass didn't get Covid once. My mother and stepfather and sister have all gotten the Covid shots, and have all gotten sick with Covid multiple times, SINCE GETTING THE SHOT!   

       Dismiss it as a one off all you like, but the plural of anecdote is data, and I know a lot of people with stories similar to mine.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       //Am I wrong in my assertion that the word immunity was removed from the definition of the word vaccine? and that this ultimately determined our governments ability to enact mandates.//   

       I think you're talking about the CDC, which isn't really my concern or responsibility, but I looked it up, and according to sites on the internet apparently:   

       ::The CDC previously defined vaccination as: “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, as per the update in September 2021, it defines it as: “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection to a specific disease.”::   

       So no, on a technicality. The definition which was changed was "vaccination".
But also, they changed it from immunity to protection. I would say that's basically saying the same thing, so ... no, don't care.
  

       Or maybe you're talking about Merriam-Webster, the dictionary which apparently changed its definition of vaccine?
Which again, various places on the internet say have changed the wording to say basically the same thing:
  

       ::OLD "A preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease."::   

       ::NEW "A preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease. ::   

       (the latter is apparently just part of the new definition.)   

       So this change makes the definition more general in a way which includes things used as vaccines now, which weren't an option previously. Which is good, I think.
But also, the old one says increase immunity and the new one says stimulate immune response, which again to me imply basically the same thing.
I don't really care about that to be honest, and the more people go on about it the more I think they're trying to defend a point which doesn't really exist.
  

       Oh gosh, the lexicographers are in a shadowy conspiracy to take over the world, so they sneakily changed a definition right when it was important and people were looking!
I mean, right, this is clearly a bit of a stretch?
  

       //Everything else you've, said while sounding very conciliatory, does not address my Very valid questions by deflecting attention towards the inadequacy of my credentials to even be allowed to ask them.//   

       Of course you're allowed to ask questions. But it would be nice if you listened to the answers.   

       I might be concilitory, because I'm not /trying/ to be a dick. But I'm also challenging you - I gave you counterexamples to your claims about immunity, which you've previously said has to be life-long and 100% effective to count. And there are many vaccines which aren't either of those.   

       So I'll ask again:
If you or someone in your family stood on a rusty nail tomorrow, and hadn't had a tetanus vaccine shot in the last 10 years, would you honestly not take them to get treatment ASAP?
  

       (The tetanus vaccine is about 95% protective, and to maintain protection a booster is recommended every 10 years. Treatment of deep unclean wounds in the UK comprises wound cleaning, administration of antibodies, booster vaccination and possibly antibiotics.)
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       //They are two yes or no questions.
[...]
You just don't want to answer them.//
  

       For the record, this was added/edited in while I was typing up my reply above.   

       //the plural of anecdote is data//   

       No it isn't. There are many people with a story about how their Granddad smoked all his life and died in their 90's of a disease which wasn't smoking related.
Random factors are particularly deceptive like that. That's why we have to do statistics. Noone does that for fun.
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       And yet despite the 140,000+ lung cancer deaths each year in the US, the government has never seen fit to BAN cigarettes, to tell private business owners that they must fire any smokers who refuse to quit. But they did that with this new vaccine, for the first time in our nation's history.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       I am not a black-or-white guy any more than I am an anti-vaxxer or a conspiracy theorist, but thanks for the new label.   

       Well, that answered one of my questions, in that you admitted that the word immunity was indeed removed from the definition of vaccine by the CDC just prior to this narrative... and that you don't care about it because... etymology...   

       ...so, did this definition change give world governments the right to enact mandates given to a specific and alternate definition?.. and then Stockholm syndrome their citizens?   

       We both already know the answer.   

       I just want to make sure everybody else here does too.   

       ...   

       You can just deflect again, but I'm telling you right now that none of us here will again be told that majority vote equals right.
Or that station in life determines ability to question.
Or that our governments have our best interests at heart.
  

       No, we 'don't' have to do what our elected representational sell-outs tell us to, and it is totally 'not' undemocratic for the actual majority to prove it by ignoring their ass kissing faces when told to do so.   

       //the government has never seen fit to BAN cigarettes,//   

       I can suggest two reasons for that difference. One is that smoking is not infectious, so there's a stronger case for making it a personal choice. The other is, there's a long- established tobacco lobby whose main job is to prevent such a ban from happening, isn't there?
pertinax, Mar 11 2023
  

       ^ yep.   

       The beginning of political buy outs in North America.
Big Bucks, no whammies.
  

       For a while there doctors were paid to endorse which brand pregnant mothers should be smoking.   

       Yes... I'm that old.   

       I'm not paranoid for no good reason. When I was growing up the cigarette smoke in the bingo halls would be a solid layer about two feet above table height.
I've ripped down apartment buildings with ship lath walls and pure asbestos insulation and my t-shirt as a mask.
My multiple, (welfare kid) dental fillings were all mercury filled amalgam.
I've crawled city centre duct works with caustic de-greaser eating my nerve endings, and spent weeks using old school contact cement to install thousands of feet of cove base.
  

       All government sanctioned.   

       Now!   

       Now, I am supposed to trust them? Because they know what's best for me?
Really?
  

       This time?
Naw. I'm thinking they had their shots at gaining my trust.
  

       They are not worthy of it.   

       Is your government worthy of yours?   

       Pertinax, have you looked at the numbers of dollars being generated by this Covid vaccine? See, there's a few other differences between this one and past vaccines. The other vaccines had no profit motive. Their patents (for polio and smallpox anyway) were made public so no company could have a monopoly on them and charge exorbitant prices for them. These Covid vaccines? Just the opposite. BioNTech and Pfizer are being sued by Moderna for patent infringement for DARING to make cheaper versions to provide to the public. This lawsuit is being ALLOWED to go forward. This is UNPRECEDENTED in the vaccine industry. Coupled with their legal immunity from liability if nasty side effects (including cancer) rear their ugly heads down the road in a few years' time (also something that didn't exist for the makers of the polio and smallpox vaccines, *as I recall*), and you don't think there's some powerful lobbying going on here?
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       //For a while there doctors were paid to endorse which brand pregnant mothers should be smoking.//   

       Much more recently, doctors were paid to get Americans addicted to opioids. Riddle me this: how can a pharmaceutical company be found guilty of conspiracy to defraud the government, but the actual doctors taking the bribes and filling out the bogus prescriptions to bilk Medicaid didn't get found guilty of being co-conspirators?
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       //I am not a black-or-white guy any more than I am an anti-vaxxer or a conspiracy theorist, but thanks for the new label.//   

       Dude look at the idea you posted here. When you talk about Mexico having "chem-trails", what do you think people are going to infer?   

       //Well, that answered one of my questions, in that you admitted that the word immunity was indeed removed from the definition of vaccine by the CDC just prior to this narrative... and that you don't care about it because... etymology...//   

       It's not my place to 'admit' anything about the CDC, but I believe we talked about it before, and I said basically the same thing there.
The CDC is an American organisation, not a global one. It's /really/ not my problem. However, to be clear - I've heard that the CDC, along with other american health agencies made some pretty significant mistakes. But I don't think this definition change is a problem like you're making out.
The fact that you're going on about this and ignoring the real issues is really odd. If you're /not/ a conspiracy theorist, why do you persist in repeating their talking points?
  

       //...so, did this definition change give world governments the right to enact mandates given to a specific and alternate definition?.. and then Stockholm syndrome their citizens?
We both already know the answer.//
  

       Yeah. It's a resounding No!
Changing that definition had no affect on anything important and is an irrelevance.
  

       Also, what do you mean by "world governments"?   

       Given all of the nastiness you've been spouting in my general direction, I've decided to allow myself a brief tit-for-tat matching moment of point-scoring snark:
I think your silence about my questions on previous vaccines speaks volumes.
  

         

         

         

       //And yet despite the 140,000+ lung cancer deaths each year in the US, the government has never seen fit to BAN cigarettes, to tell private business owners that they must fire any smokers who refuse to quit. But they did that with this new vaccine, for the first time in our nation's history.//   

       In the UK at least, we /do/ have pretty strong regulations about smoking in public where it may harm others. Yes this affects private businesses - pubs for example. And also regulation against the other horrors you mention 2 fries. Yes it had to be fought for tooth and nail against vested interests with lobby groups, but a key part of achieving that was doing the damn statistics. The smoking thing in particular was I think quite hard.   

       As an aside, I might tell you about the experience of being a scientist and trying to show something rigorously, but that's for another post.
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       // When you talk about Mexico having "chem-trails", what do you think people are going to infer?//   

       First of all I would like people to read what I actually write.
I said Mexico has no chemtrails.
The air is too dry for a contrail of any length to form and therefore releasing chemicals which mimic contrails would be far too obvious and so there are no chemtrails in Mexico.
Canada on the other hand has chemtrails up the wazzoo. In fact I posted videos I filmed myself of our sky here being covered in them and lasting long enough to settle to the ground.
  

       That you've all been conned into labelling me a conspiracy theorist for calling attention to it is not 'my' problem.   

       //The fact that you're going on about this and ignoring the real issues is really odd. If you're /not/ a conspiracy theorist, why do you persist in repeating their talking points?//   

       I'm the one not ignoring the real issues. The people that ignored these issues, more than 90% of the population, are all walking around with experimental non-vaccines in their bloodstreams.   

       The points are my own. If they happen to overlap with those of other people also being labelled conspiracy theorists then maybe they are on to something.   

       ...and maybe it's time for the 90% to do some listening rather than name calling.   

       //Yeah. It's a resounding No! Changing that definition had no affect on anything important and is an irrelevance.//   

       If these injections hadn't been given the term vaccine then there could have been no "Vaccine Mandates".
There could have been no exemption from persecution for 'vaccine' manufacturers.
No segregation of the "unvaccinated."
No sanctioned prejudice against anti-vaxxers.
and no people voluntarily dying of stroke from being coerced into allowing experimental Non-Vaccines into their bodies.
  

       No effect my ass.   

       //I think your silence about my questions on previous vaccines speaks volumes.//   

       Previous vaccines didn't legally but falsely single me out as a villain for three years and your questions about them merely distracted from my own.   

       //lasting long enough to settle to the ground//

Step 1. Set up a video camera to record chemtrail. Keep the whole thing in one long shot with no cuts.
Step 2. Wait for the dust to settle.
Step 3. Gather dust and send it to whoever wants to analyze it.
Step 4. ????
Step 5. Profit!
Voice, Mar 11 2023
  

       //First of all I would like people to read what I actually write.
I said Mexico has no chemtrails.//
  

       Yeah, I did!
You /actually/ said "Mexico has to chem-trails. It would be far too obvious in a region which can not form con-trails."
It still says that, and I parsed it to have the opposite meaning to what you apparently intended.
  

       Notwithstanding that, you're talking about chemtrails as if they're a thing.   

       You say you've seen and posted videos of them settling to the ground - this is not something I was aware of.
I would be interested to see the footage and will restrain myself from speculating until I've seen it.
  

       //and your questions about them merely distracted from my own.//   

       == "Only /I/ am entitled to ask questions, but I'll ignore your answers if they're not what I want."
Loris, Mar 11 2023
  

       //In the UK at least, we /do/ have pretty strong regulations about smoking in public where it may harm others. Yes this affects private businesses - pubs for example.//   

       Here in the US we have no such regulations, not at the federal level. Some states allow smoking in pubs and other workplaces, some don't. They leave it up to the states to regulate, which is historically how vaccine mandates worked as well.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2023
  

       //Yeah, I did! You /actually/ said "Mexico has to chem-trails.//   

       Fuck! You're right. It didn't get flagged as a misspell so I didn't see the typo. It was meant to read no chemtrails.
My apologies.
  

       //Notwithstanding that, you're talking about chemtrails as if they're a thing.//   

       They are a thing. An admitted thing. I'll look for the video. I posted it here.   

       //"Only /I/ am entitled to ask questions, but I'll ignore your answers if they're not what I want."//   

       Not at all. I just won't allow my questions to be glossed over if I feel they bear weight. I realize that is not what you were trying to do.
I am just already way more defensive than most people from my upbringing, and being denied my rights for the last few years for daring to listen to my intuition rather than the "experts I am not qualified to question" has amped that up something fierce.
  

       It's not you, it's me.   

       //Are you saying different atmospheric characteristics and volume of commercial air traffic in different parts of the world are proof of … something? Or just that these differences are exploited by … someone … for some reason?//   

       Yes. There were an awful lot of jets flying over the resort I was at in Cancun. I could hear them but had a bitch of a time seeing them given that they were farther ahead in their flight than where the sound was coming from.
In Canada Contrails will sometimes follow behind a commercial jet for a few inches given perspective.
Here where I live, the nearest airport able to launch commercial jets is 300 miles away and in an entirely other country.
  

       Here we get "Contrails" which widen and drift and last for several hours.   

       //What purpose are chemtrails used for and who benefits from them?//   

       We are being told that it is to change the albedo of the planet and counteract climate change. (don't get me started down that rabbit hole until we've plumbed this one please)   

       //And where they can’t be used or explained away, what do “they” use in their place?//   

       Why would anything need to be used in their place? It's one biosphere. Shit travels.   

       //And the everlasting, never answered question - who are “they” ?//   

       The 1% of course.   

       Epstein didn't hang himself.   

       Okay I found both Chemtrail videos. I started the first video 20 km up the road, and the second video is from ten minutes later when I got home.   

       I don't have video of it when it landed, you'll just have to believe me when I say this place filled with fog and I couldn't trust my own body to climb a ladder for four days or so after.
Whole town full of people not feeling so good afterwards. We all saw the same shit.
  

       ...but I'm a conspiracy theorist because I bother to document and inform truth?   

       <cracks neck>   

       [link]
[link]
  

       I know that correlation does not indicate causation... but the insects here in the last two years since are different now than anybody has seen in their lifetimes living here.   

       True story.   

       Fling your collective shit at will.   

       The bugs? Um grasshoppers so thick they were crunching underfoot.
We had preying mantis here last year. Swear to God. Nobody here has ever seen that shit before. At least two months or more of no see ums so thick that nobody could eat outside even with screens.
A stink bug infestation.
  

       Lots more, I don't know I'm not an entomologist   

       I just know that we now have many bugs here we didn't ever seem to have before.   

       Yay us!   

       Oh gosh, I'm just annoing all by myself now.   

       Yes [Voice] that [link] explains everything.   

       What's your take on the Chem-Trails we are subjected to here in the videos I showed you? Do you think I faked them?   

       I was SO tempted to type Chem-Trials, but I withheld... ...and it was SO hard to do that you have no idea.   

       Don't stop on my account buddy.
21 Quest, Mar 12 2023
  

       As Naomi Klein mentions in "The Shock Doctrine", the CIA mainly funded direct psyops experiments on Canadians, which were run by professors at McGill University.
4and20, Mar 12 2023
  

       //Do commercial jets usually fly in circles?/   

       Near busy airports, yes, they do this a lot. I believe it's known as "stacking" (because each waiting aircraft circles at a different altitude). ATC instructs them to do this until it's their turn to land.
pertinax, Mar 12 2023
  

       //we now have many bugs here we didn't ever seem to have before//   

       That is a predicted effect of a warming climate.
pertinax, Mar 12 2023
  

       //Okay I found both Chemtrail videos. I started the first video 20 km up the road, and the second video is from ten minutes later when I got home.   

       I don't have video of it when it landed, you'll just have to believe me when I say this place filled with fog and I couldn't trust my own body to climb a ladder for four days or so after.
Whole town full of people not feeling so good afterwards. We all saw the same shit.//
  

       Okay, so I've watched the two short videos, and -while I agree it's odd to see curved contrails - I'm not convinced that means much. Not an aviation expert, but I'd bet there's reasons for planes to fly curved paths.
To me, 'flying in circles' means multiple loops over approximately the same path, and I didn't see that. If I interpreted the first one correctly, it looks like one plane flying a meandering path with several back-and-forths over the valley. I think that has innocuous explanations, for example to do some sort of survey. Around here we occasionally get small planes flying around for a day, then someone comes round and tries to sell everyone aerial photos of their houses.
And as we know, contrails (i.e. water vapour induced by a plane's passage) /are/ a real thing.
  

       I'm not disputing that there was fog afterwards, or some sickness around afterwards, but it's not /necessarily/ related.   

       So there are basically two classes of explanation.
1) A plane spread some stuff in the air directly above your area, causing a thick fog, and this made people sick for a few days.
2) A plane flew around your area for some reason. It got foggy later by chance, (or at least for some unrelated reason like a ground-based release of material). And there was some sickness in the area either because of the fog, or for unrelated reasons.
  

       Oh, and similarly the changes to the ecosystem might be related, or not.   

       And... well, class one might be psychologically attractive, but I think you need to at least consider class two.   

       Because... well, over the last few years there have been several ground-based events affecting the local atmosphere near me. A fire at a recycling plant a few miles away put up a big column of black smoke. I think one made the national news, briefly.
A few years ago a company was remediating some land (old factory site, had been a derelict wasteland for decades, which sometimes smoked), and at one point the whole neighbourhood stank for a few days, while they dug it up and sprayed stuff around.
And in the time-period you're talking about, it's entirely possible people were getting covid. Most people, it just makes them feel bad for a few days.
Loris, Mar 12 2023
  

       Chem trails that caused fog? That sounds like a cloud seeding mishap to me. Surely nobody disputes the reality of cloud seeding?
21 Quest, Mar 12 2023
  

       None of you were here. You don't make to my age without knowing what contrails are.
The shit in those videos wasn't contrails.They weren't caused by a single jet flying in circles.
There is no major airport close to here.
Contrails do not spread out across an entire sky.
Contrails do not fall to Earth from 30,000 ft. and fog an entire valley.
  

       Pull your heads out of your asses.   

       Chill brah. You're way too defensive. I, for one, haven't even addressed the claim.
Voice, Mar 12 2023
  

       I'm just defensive in general.   

       But M'yes. Quite.   

       <takes deep breath>   

       I am chill.
I never set out to attack anyone. Ever.
But when I feel backed into a corner, as I told [MB], I defend myself like a rabid badger... and not a UK badger, not some cartoon looking zebra of a badger hunted for sport, but like a fucking honey Badger. A take-out-a-cobra, after being bitten, fuck-up-a-grizzly-bear and walk away type badger.
Last ape allowed on the arc and there are only three of us there type badger.
That's been my life. I can't change those spots. They're what has kept me breathing.
I am always underestimated and that's my groove. That's where I live. I'm a little guy in a big guys world and was taught by them instead of a dad.
  

       Touch me or touch my life and I will climb you like a tree and smash you in the face so many times before you can even get your hands up that if you can't pull me off of you, somebody else will have to and then they have to deal with me as well... and I giggle while doing it when somebody forces me to go there.   

       I do my best not to go there.   

       And, that attitude, which will probably get me killed someday is all I know... but at 54 I'm still as buff as I was in my 20's, maybe even more buff, and I'll go out swinging one way or another.   

       That's just me.   

       "I" didn't make me this way.
It is a reaction to the insanity I was raised within.
  

       So when I see the majority of people around me capitulating to,... well 'insanity' is all I can think to call it, given that I can see how society is being taught by the bought media into Stockholm-ing everybody into conformity to fill agendas I can see which they can not.   

       Well...   

       ...all I can think is;
not on my fucking watch.
  

       That is not directed at anyone personally.   

       Just at humanity at large.   

       I'm a good guy.
I'm the guy that tosses himself over a toddler to save them from a falling steel and glass door.
The guy your three year old daughter smiles and waves to on the train, because kids know.
They haven't been trained to shut off their intuition yet, and I guarantee all of you that every three year old on the planet instinctively knows who will protect them just through eye contact far more accurately than their parents are able to discern.
  

       It's how we are hard-wired form birth.   

       The other side of that coin though is;   

       If nobody fucks with my life.
Well then I won't have to fuck back.
  

       Fuck with my life, and...   

       ...   

       ...and I lose my shit.   

       I've tried to not let that spill onto here. I like you people. You're all smart, articulate, learned, and for the most part friendly.
Things I admire and wish I was more like.
Thing is though, I am self taught, and some of the things I've learned to do don't seem to exist in your books.
  

       I've mentioned this here before, but I don't think it was believed.
It's just a thing I noticed and has yet to be proven wrong.
People that fuck with me get instant karma. I don't deserve their shit and the universe seems to agree with me.
I go out of my way in order to not fuck over others and those who fuck with me get, as far as I can tell, ten fold fuckery back.
  

       Totally not my doing. Not intentionally anyway.
...but I don't really mind so much, y'know? I might be able to turn that off... but I don't. Why should I?
Anybody fucking with me has it coming because I sure as shit didn't fuck with them.
  

       ...   

       ...   

       ...   

       How much do you think this globalist agenda vaccine mandate/energy crisis shit is fucking with my life?   

       Not a good idea.   

       My attitude is; bring it bitches. Let's see how you like taking what you're dishing out.   

       Y'all got some learning to do.   

       So...   

       ...how 'bout them chemtrails eh? Ain't they some shit?   

       // globalist agenda vaccine mandate //   

       Euronews, albeit an exceptionally dodgy news source, has just reported that excess deaths in Europe, as Covid deaths seem to be winding down, have been hitting the vaccinated countries hardest.   

       In December 2022, Germany's excess deaths were 39% higher, wheareas excess deaths in Romania actually dropped by a negative percentage.   

       Watch this space.
4and20, Mar 13 2023
  

       Someone had to get rid of all those old people.
mylodon, Mar 13 2023
  

       I had a great hope that all the behavioral requirements of the pandemic would kill off a nice handful of the bad bugs. I think that didn't happen at all. Instead a load of people became less resistant (to all sorts of things) and then later on became more affected (to all sorts of things). It was a reminded of the danger of our current viral load.
mylodon, Mar 13 2023
  

       //then later on became more affected (to all sorts of things)//   

       I think you mean **by** all sorts of things in that second line of yours there.   

       //It was a reminded of the danger of our current viral load//   

       Reminder?   

       Personally I think it was .. with the evidence of the non-covid related excess deaths ... rather than a reminder of that, a reminder of the dangers of bad scientists (it wasn't the 'science' as such that was bad, it was the "experts" interpretation and use of of it) being allowed too much credence, influence and power over policy decisions .. a great many of these "experts" who got it all so very wrong appear to reside at the WHO, though we certainly have our own share of them in the UK occupying positions of influence in SAGE.
Skewed, Mar 13 2023
  

       I'll have to get back to you on that.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       I'm afraid I'll just have to get back to you on that.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       [mylodon]'s post is insightful. If Covid deaths killed off old people and vaccines prevented this, one would expect more old, vaccinated people to be dying now than where co-morbidity did them in a year or two ago.
Voice, Mar 13 2023
  

       I suspect that if one were to construct a COD Abacus, with a row of beads for every cause of death for 2019, and then a new one for 2021, you could make a very scary-looking bead row for the new COD (Covid) by simply plucking a few beads from each of the existing rows. Visually, it would APPEAR that there were a lot more deaths that year, even though the total bead count remains exactly the same (or close to it).   

       It's funny, I think, in a gallows humor sort of way, that the government seems to have realized the numbers aren't going to support their claims about Covid, because they're hiding the numbers for the pandemic years. Look it up, you can't find a number for cancer deaths in 2020, 2021, or 2022. Those figures are still unreported. But you can find them for 2019, easy.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       A1, look at those figures again. They aren't reported deaths, they're projections. Estimates of what WILL happen.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       //In 2020, 1,806,590 new cancer cases and 606,520 cancer deaths are projected to occur in the United States//   

       Why don't they have the number? My guess is they're still trying to figure out how many beads they need to move around on the abacus to keep their story consistent.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       Given what we know about Covid and premorbidity, given how many patients on their death bed were pushed over the edge when Covid came a-knocking, I'm betting the deaths reported due to cancer are going to be a LOT lower than previous years. On the order of 200-300k lower, because that's how many WOULD have died of cancer but got bumped off by Covid instead. I'd say the same for flu, chronic respiratory illness, and diabetes. You look at the number of workplace deaths every year, and I bet those are going to be a lot lower than average too, as well as traffic deaths and a slew of other CODs. You add up all the reductions in THOSE causes of death during the pandemic years, plus cancer, and I bet you're gonna get pretty darn close to what they said were Covid deaths for those years.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       I'm gonna be REALLY curious to see what numbers they feed us for 2020 next year. Part of the reason I'm so skeptical of the government numbers is the way their mouthpieces at CNN covered the "mass graves" at Hart Island in 2020. Remember the coverage showing "truck loads" of bodies being dumped there? Well what they conveniently failed to report, that only New Yorkers would know and even then not all of them, is that New York dumps truckloads of bodies on Hart Island EVERY YEAR. That's where they've ALWAYS disposed of unclaimed bodies at the morgue, so it's usually a bunch of dead transients.   

       Well, in 2020 they changed the rules a bit. They cut the time families are given to claim the bodies in half, which effectively doubled the amount of bodies that were declared unclaimed, which vastly increased the amount that went to the mass graves at Hart Island. Many of those bodies would have, SHOULD HAVE, been given proper burials in actual cemeteries or even cremated. But the government wanted to scare us into compliance, and that's how they did it.
21 Quest, Mar 13 2023
  

       //It's funny, I think, in a gallows humor sort of way, that the government seems to have realized the numbers aren't going to support their claims about Covid, because they're hiding the numbers for the pandemic years. Look it up, you can't find a number for cancer deaths in 2020, 2021, or 2022. Those figures are still unreported. But you can find them for 2019, easy.//   

       I can't speak for the USA, but this sort of data is readily available online for the UK, you just have to look (2 links. 2022 isn't included in these and may not be available yet, but give them time and I bet it will show up.)
  

       And regarding covid, the data is also available. There are various different measures and you need to understand how and why they're generated, though.   

       Back when Bigsleep was around they asked me if I thought covid was the leading cause of death. And I said it wasn't at the that time, but it had been previously ... and they were all disparaging like I was being dumb.   

       So I went and looked it up, and at the first peak the mortality rate for the country was around double that expected for the time of year, for several weeks.
And maybe you could say that they were making the figures up, but honestly I doubt it. I mean, it wasn't in their interest for the numbers to be high, and at the time there were emails regularly going round my department about individuals related to the department (retirees, mostly) dying.
Loris, Mar 13 2023
  

       // I had FlightRadar open in another window and watched two Boeing 737's fly within 20 miles of your place, at 350000 ft and 37000 ft. One routed Vancouver-Winnepeg, the other Abbotsburg-Toronto.//   

       Were they pulling doughnuts over Grand Forks?   

       You're planely joshing, and it's exhausting.
Voice, Mar 13 2023
  

       More likely a classified and related exercise, such as putting experimental aircraft through the same maneuvers to gather baseline performance data.
Voice, Mar 13 2023
  

       // Did you know the word gullible isn't in the dictionary? Look it up//

It's funny because anyone actually looking it up is being the opposite of gullible.
Voice, Mar 13 2023
  

       // Did you know the word gullible isn't in the dictionary? Look it up//   

       I'd like to try a twist on that. Say: "Did you know the word gullable isn't in the dictionary? Look it up."
doctorremulac3, Mar 13 2023
  

       // I'm the last one left with his faculties intact   

       I can assure you this is something you'll never need to be concerned about.   

       Also it's very difficult to take people seriously who say things like "Trudon't".
tatterdemalion, Mar 13 2023
  

       Nothing starts with an N and ends with a G.   

       Hey that Flightradar24 site is pretty cool. Does it show circling jets the day of those videos, or would the flights not be posted if they were military exercises?   

       Either way, I looked it up and contrails, while being able to spread out for quite some distance and persist for hours, (funny how they never did that when I was growing up living next to the Edmonton International Airport), never fall to Earth.   

       I'm telling you that these did just that.   

       If contrails can't do that, then what else should I consider these to be besides heavier than air chemicals?   

       Water vapour does not behave that way, so should I delude myself into believing that I, and all of these other townsfolk didn't see what we actually saw?   

       That nobody here was nauseous and lightheaded for days afterwards?   

       Oh yeah, and we had massive clusters of lady bugs hanging from the ceilings which nobody here has ever seen before as well.   

       //I can assure you this is something you'll never need to be concerned about.//   

       <knocks-on-wood>
I'd say that the actions of my fellow humans over the last few years makes me seriously doubt that statement.
  

       //Also it's very difficult to take people seriously who say things like "Trudon't".//   

       Well that's because somehow a drama teacher has the credentials to lead our country just because of his daddy's last name.
I'd say "fathers last name" but that needs it's own Maury Povich episode.
  

       <drops mic>   

       {picks up mike, carefully adds it to the collection)
pertinax, Mar 14 2023
  

       <snags mic last second>   

       What did mike ever do to you?... and what's up with his pronoun?   

       Well, it all started one night, twenty years ago now. The gum leaf band were just tuning up when the screen doors swung open.
pertinax, Mar 14 2023
  

       Back to you Phil.
<hands mic back to mc>
  

       // [mylodon]'s post is insightful. //   

       If this were true, highly vaccinated countries such as Germany would still record excess deaths (from viral load, from licking toads, from goading proles) as Covid deaths, or at the very least, being Germany, as attempted escapes from camp.
4and20, Mar 14 2023
  

       //Bill C11 *still* isn't law. Even though [2f] thought the proposed law was already in effect and blocking his youtube//   

       You do realize that just means that certain videos had been blocked here in Canada before the bill has even gone through yet, don't you?   

       That all those particular videos were either about Trudeau or the Freedom Convoy I'm sure is in no way indicative of what's coming if C11 is pushed through.   

       Somebody else must have clued in too and raised hell, because it only lasted for part of one day.   

       And I just want you to knooooow... I found a reason for me, to think they are out to get me. A reason to wear foil hats.... and the reason is that!
21 Quest, Mar 14 2023
  

       A stable genius, even!
21 Quest, Mar 14 2023
  

       //I suppose it's possible someone at youtube threw a switch prematurely in anticipation of a law that's been in debate, not passed, for over a year. Or even under pressure from the government to block selected clips. I don't know how likely that is though.   

       YouTube and other services routinely block (and sometimes restore) content for a wide variety reasons - reported misinformation, copyright issues, hate speech, etc - even government complaints). Why don't you make a list of the specific vids and ask them what happened?//   

       Or it could have been that 'Google blocking News in Canada' thing I found (2nd link from top).
Timeline looks about right for it.
I'm not clear if that's Bill C-11 or something distinct but similar. The article I found suggests that Google blocked news content from some Canadians to indicate their response if they were obligated to pay Canadian news organisations for propagating their content. (update - perhaps it's Bill C-18)
Loris, Mar 14 2023
  

       I just calls'em like I see's'em.   

       That doesn't mean I'll never be wrong about how I'm seeing things, just that I don't bullshit about what I see even when it sounds that way.   

       Stable?
Genius?
  

       Meh... guess we'll see.   

       I don't know any better words to describe an under educated individual who has images of inventions and physics principles, which nobody else seems to have thought of, pop into their heads fully formed, which also work when built, who isn't a drooling idiot in a sanitarium.   

       You got a better label?   

       Tis the season.   

       //And skip the usual excuse about how you don't have time. If you spent 1/10 the time looking things up as you do on making accusations and excuses//   

       I don't make excuses. I 'own' my shit.
Spend three decades working double time doing manual labour through broken bones and torn ligaments, raising kids, starting businesses, just to jump back into the fire and sign up for another potential decade...
  

       ...and we'll talk about how much time you had to pursue the things you should have been taught before being tossed out on your prepubescent ass alone and forced to figure out everything else instead.   

       Otherwise, back the fuck up spanky.   

       OMG that would have had so many emoticons in it if it could have...   

       I guess what I mean is; would 'you' like to be forced to learn the things I know which you lack knowledge of in order to even be taken seriously by others like me?   

       Would you really want to go there?   

       Think carefully...   

       You are not alone.   

       Thanks [Loris], that's actually informative instead of dismissive.   

       Appreciated this is.   

       It all depends on specific circumstances. Sometimes if there's an inflight emergency they might not have time to climb to sufficient altitude and have to dump fuel surprisingly low (see link). Possibly equally concerning (perhaps even moreso depending on one's perspective) is when they dump the latrine inflight.
21 Quest, Mar 16 2023
  

       I can see it happening. It's certainly conceivable, but avgas has a pretty strong smell to it. I would expect that he'd have noticed something "off" at the very least if there was that much fuel vapor hovering right above the ground. What I've never really looked into that much is cloud seeding, so it's possible there was some of that going on and unforseen atmospheric conditions caused the dry ice particles to fall further down than intended. That would certainly explain an unexpected mist.
21 Quest, Mar 16 2023
  

       Why is it that no one here seems willing to acknowledge a very well established, widely known to exist science such as cloud seeding?
21 Quest, Mar 17 2023
  

       //Thanks [Loris], that's actually informative instead of dismissive.//   

       You're welcome.
... Although - do you see me as usually casually dismissive?
Because if I actually was, I could write a lot less and save a lot of effort.
  

       //Why is it that no one here seems willing to acknowledge a very well established, widely known to exist science such as cloud seeding?//   

       I don't think anyone is doubting it, as a thing at least - but why would there be a plane doing it above 2 fries with poisonous chemicals?
And what would those chemicals be?
You mentioned dry ice - and that's not going to make people sick unless it's in lumps which poke them in the eye or something.
To fit with 2fries description, it needs to fall as fog (which isn't what cloud seeding is supposed to do) then make people sick.
And finally, in cloud seeding, don't you need... a cloud?
  

       I think I heard, many years ago that ... maybe it was the Russians... who were trying to seed clouds in the suburbs using cement (which you /don't/ want to breath in) to stop it raining on the Olympic games, or something like that.
So, you know, if it was like a whole series of failures and incompetence...
But all in all, it seems like it would be more of a cover story than the actual plan.
Loris, Mar 17 2023
  

       What I'd missed was the part where he said people got sick. I scrolled back up, and see that now. No, dry ice wouldn't explain that. Silver iodide, however, another chemical commonly used for cloud seeding, might (see link).   

       //These results suggest that AgI from cloud seeding may moderately affect biota living in both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems if cloud seeding is repeatedly applied in a specific area and large amounts of seeding materials accumulate in the environment.//
21 Quest, Mar 17 2023
  

       Maybe it was a marijuana burn and they were dropping stuff to limit the spread? Hell I don't know, I'm reaching here!
21 Quest, Mar 18 2023
  

       Sorry Too Fried, I tried man.
21 Quest, Mar 18 2023
  

       //Thanks [Loris], that's actually informative instead of dismissive.//   

       You're welcome. ... Although - do you see me as usually casually dismissive?//   

       Nope. Not you. I meant my thanks.
The annos between your last one and this one are what I think we need less of.
  

       // I'm reaching here! //   

       Keep reaching boys.   

       Airliners don't all detour to dump semicircular "contrails" above a single location far from any major airport which then 'all' settle to the ground without leaving a paper trail... no matter how much pot anybody smokes.
It'll come out eventually and you'll each owe me a beer.
Deal?
  

       You'know, if we're all still alive that is.   

       Shitty thing is I 'honestly' think we got bio-attacked with invasive species insect eggs.
Did a bit of research in my overly abundant spare time and found out that only one type of preying mantis is native to B.C. which nobody here has even ever seen before, yet we had a rainbow of them summer before last.
Turns out hanging clusters of ladybugs are only from Asia.
Haven't researched the others we've had.
  

       Any Entomologists out there looking for a thesis paper wet-dream to document?   

       Well then, c'mon up for the summer and stay a spell because I am too busy to and too inept to document it properly.
You can witness the third year wave with us. Yay!
  

       Bring lots more screen than you think you'll need.   

       You call somebody's bullshit and get proven wrong you owe them a beer. This is the way.   

       Welcome to Canada. Pull up a stump.   

       ...well if they don't want a beer, you offer whatever other drinks you might have which they might want, and if they don't want any of them, well then there's no pleasin'm and they can just go without now can't they?   

       Bro when I come up to Christina Lake this summer, the beer will be on me!
21 Quest, Mar 18 2023
  

       Since we're all still here, apparently, I'll take a quick shot at answering a couple of the questions from way back up the thread.   

       First, [21q]'s: //have you looked at the numbers of dollars being generated by this Covid vaccine?//   

       No, but I'm sure it's very large. If a corporation provides a solution to a big problem, they may make a lot of money out of that. That's Capitalism doing what it does. On the one hand, Capitalism provides a mechanism which often generates solutions faster than other economic systems do. On the other hand, it also provides an incentive for faking problems ... *if* you can get away with that - but that's harder than it sounds, and therefore less common than has often been claimed.   

       The fact that a lot of money has been made from the solution is not evidence that the problem was fake. For example, I'm sure an enormous amount of money was made by arms companies during World War II, but that doesn't mean they just made the whole thing up in order to make that money.   

       Now, [2f]'s:   

       //Is your government worthy of your [trust]?//   

       It depends.   

       I trust government agencies to keep growing, irrespective of whether they're doing anything useful (though, sometimes, they are).
I trust people in the defense and security sectors to misuse secrecy laws to cover up follies and inefficiencies (quite often) and also outright corruption (less often, but sometimes).
I trust financial markets professionals to keep taking risks with other people's money that they wouldn't take with their own (because that's how they're incentivised).
I trust people who have inherited money to try to protect their own children from some of the pressures and bad experiences suffered by people who have not (which efforts can then feed into, for example, the Iron Law of Wages).
I trust people higher up in religious organisations to be generally less humble and less generous than people further down in them (though there do seem to be some honourable exceptions).
I trust pathogens to keep evolving to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by modern human lifestyles (including large-scale long-distance travel).
I trust people in some parts of the media to select and frame the news in ways which mostly conform to the class ideology of the socio-economic class to which they mostly belong (which is not the same as lying, but can still be unhelpful).
I trust people in other parts of the media to select and frame the news in ways which suit the interests of whichever media baron owns them (again, not *usually* to the point of actually lying).
I trust Marxists (including Critical Theorists) and fascists (including Alt-Rightists) alike to keep pushing stupidly simplistic "us and them" pictures of the world. The Marxist versions usually use longer words, but they have a very similar stupid mistake at their core.
I trust Social Media algorithms to expedite the work of both of these groups, because keeping people riled up is good for their business. For example, Google seems to have decided that I ought to become a Stalinist, and is pushing at me more and more videos and search results tending to that end. Meanwhile they - or perhaps Facebook, or someone else - seem to have decided that our friend [2 fries] ought to become a fascist, so they have (apparently) been pushing at him content about, for example, "globalists". If, one day, you all find that [2 fries] and I have partitioned Poland between us, you should probably just shoot us both.
  

       Most of all, though, I trust all of these groups to keep distrusting each other, and therefore not to be able to carry out any really complex or difficult plan in concert with each other and in secret.   

       (In the interests of full disclosure, I should note that I also trust God. See Job and Kierkegaard for more details. But that's not really on topic here).
pertinax, Mar 18 2023
  

       Pertinax, in all my years coming to this website, that is hands down the most awesome thing I have ever read here. Somebody actually sees the world the way I do. Gets kind of lonely sometimes, that was like a light in the darkness. Thank you.   

       (Standing slow clap)
doctorremulac3, Mar 18 2023
  

       The only reason I mentioned the money linked with the Covid vaccine is that it was claimed that tobacco hasn't been banned due to strong lobbying. I was pointing out that there's likely just as much lobbying in Congress for the Covid vaccine with just as much money involved.
21 Quest, Mar 18 2023
  

       Big pharma's new gig is addictive drugs that allow you to eat garbage food and still lose weight as long as you keep taking your ridiculously expensive drugs.   

       The beasts that sold you the "food pyramid" saying "eat 200 to 300 servings of "healthy grain" a day" get to keep making money selling corn syrup laced crap and big pharma gets a new demon to fight with their bad health choice preserving shots, pills and nostrums.   

       A mouthpiece representative for Ozembic, a magic weight loss shot came out saying exercise and diet don't help you lose weight, it's strictly genetic, pointing to to a study saying 80% of overweight people have overweight parents so that's the cause. I won't even comment on that.
doctorremulac3, Mar 18 2023
  

       I'll do that. Thing is though, I don't have video of being sprayed by helicopters, I've got video of getting sprayed by jets.
Whether the sudden emergence, just after that time, of massive waves of insects nobody here has seen in their lifetimes stems from that time or is natural is indeed a valid question.
  

       You guys want to know the latest weirdness I just came across today?   

       Well I'ma tell ya anyway.   

       I was talking to a fellow in town today about all the strange insects lately and he says;
"Think that's fucked? When you get home grab a hand-full of snow and try to melt it with a lighter. It won't melt. It'll blacken and smell like burnt plastic."
I said; "Fuck off, no way."
He just goes; "See for yourself."
  

       So I did.   

       Now... I admit that there's lots of things I don't know all that well, but I've lived more than half a century in Canada, and how snow generally behaves ain't one of them.   

       What the fuck has been falling from the sky all winter?
Because whatever that white shit everywhere outside right now isn't snow. I don't know what the hell it is.
  

       Say the word and I'll make a video after so you'll know from the timestamp that... snow scorches instead of melting and smells like plastic now folks.
Swear on my eyesight.
  

       Thought I'd seen every fucking thing...   

       Thank you, but I am as skeptical of that debunking as I am of contrails not behaving like they did when I was a kid.   

       hmmm maybe a Mandela effect thing.   

       I spent twelve years, off and on, living either next to the Edmonton International Airport, or in towns neighbouring it.   

       In whatever universe I come from, contrails disappear behind airliners. Always. Period. Any altitude. Any time of the year. Always have.   

       I played with a lot of snow growing up.
I played with a lot of fire growing up.
  

       Snow didn't scorch there. It tried to put out the flames.   

       ...   

       You fuckers tore the multi-verse didn't you?
Shit.
  

       Your seat may or not be a floatation device.   

       There's another one:   

       Where I come from the word 'floatation' is the correct spelling...   

       ...yet, here, neither of our two scrabble dictionaries contain either spelling.   

         

       Huh...   

       The paragraph or so I deleted after this point is not worth taking abuse over.   

       Baresn'stain' bears?   

       Yeah... not where I come from.   

       But it goes without saying the sky is full of stuff that will drop on our heads even if it is not snow. You may escape death by plastic snowfall but not the international space station. That's a ton of bricks right there. If a falling balloon doesn't get you a used sidewinder might.
mylodon, Mar 19 2023
  

       Sounds rather Star Trek-ian.   

       This shit can be spliced.
It's just a new branch.
  

       Don't panic.   

       ...or rather, stop panicking.   

       It does not help.   

       // If a falling balloon doesn't get you a used sidewinder might.//   

       <shrugs>   

       Well that would be very bad for all involved now wouldn't it?   

       : ]   

       Wasn't me.   

       [pertinax] I agree with everything you've said.
I just think that our individual definitions of what constitutes GOD may either differ from that which is taught or differ from each others concept of what GOD is.
  

       No monotheism existed before a couple of hand-fulls of centuries ago.   

       Something created the universe.
Something within that universe created us.
  

       <later edit> ...or tweaked us.   

       A pantheon did not create the universe, nor did its leader.   

       That which created the universe/s... is my GOD. No church needed. We just chat now that I'm stuck here, and someday I will go back to the Great Dreaming.   

       (just my own take on things... I totally get it if it doesn't align with other concepts but it's not the first time and doubt it will be the last)   

         

       Anything else is just;
I can't believe it's not deity...
...light.
  

       <shrugs>   

       Just thought you should know.
Delete at will.
Are the topics still relevant?
Is the data storage factor at risk?
Have either of these claims been verified yet?
Does any of it have anything to do with the cost of tea in China?
  

       <shrugs again>   

       ...Back to you Phil.   

       It's more likely that YouTube saw the writing on the wall with regards to what's been happening with Twitter and the other social media sites that find themselves under scrutiny by the USG as the debate about Section 230 rages on.
RayfordSteele, Apr 02 2023
  

       You're probably right. I just inform and make conjectures. Those conjectures are influenced by, and constrained by my knowledge which as we all know is incomplete.   

       The observations themselves are not lacking in clarity... it's just that the knowledge to make entirely accurate assessment of those observations has not yet been attained.   

       On that note. We got chem-trail bombed again today.
Bright sunny day dropped six to eight degrees and began to snow.
  

       I got video of it again. This time I time stamped it by filming the FlightRadar24 site to show that there were no logged flights pulling doughnuts overhead at exactly the same time that the doughnuts in question were being made.   

       Yeah I know you're all getting tired of my particular brand of shit... but if I could direct your attention towards the latest of my links you all can see for yourselves.   

       [link]   

       That's interesting - I decided to have a look and see what I can figure out.   

       I'm probably being dumb but I couldn't see a time-stamp in the video, nvm.
From the view outdoors, it looks like it's somewhere near mid-day - the shadows of the bus, ladder etc. are short, but slightly towards the camera (and you're north of the equator) so you're looking south.
I can see three contrails, perhaps part of four - although that might be a bit of cirrus cloud.
  

       I don't know exactly where you are on that map, somewhere near Christina lake wasn't it? That's near a place called Grand Forks, and to get the scale I looked at Google maps, the distance between Kimberly and Grand Forks is about 180km (as the crow flies). That's a little over half the width of the map visible on-screen at the point I froze. I can see dozens of plane symbols on the map, and one which from the icon direction looks like it might have just flown almost directly over you. Possibly that's what made the densest, presumably most recent contrail which gets tighter towards the right.   

       I think I would embarass myself if I were to estimate the angle of the contrails to the horizon from the video. But if you could guess that we could infer how far away the planes are, at least in a range, by looking at the options for their altitudes.   

       Sometimes, when conditions are right, contrails can hang around for a long time. So possibly the other broader, fainter contrails are from older flights which have moved away and you therefore can't see on that website?
Did you check back something like 10 minutes or half an hour later and see how they had evolved?
Loris, Apr 04 2023
  

       Regardless of your opinion or mine, we all watched the jets flying overhead leaving circular emissions without anything actually being overhead as far as radar was concerned.   

       I will attempt to be more diligent in the future as it pertains to my pain the assedness.   

       The video was taken facing south-east. The angle was less steep than 45 degrees. There should be a time-stamp on the video, and it is clear that no radar information shows jets flying in circles anywhere near our location at any time of the day in question.   

       I took a video ten minutes prior to the one I most recently posted. [link]
You will be able to more clearly see the circular patterns being flown in between the time I took the first and second videos.
  

       Then the entire balmy sky filled with clouds and it started to snow.   

       Just take some vats of coiled threads and mucin and distribute them above the contrails in a fine spray. They can encompass the contrails and drop them harmlessly to the earth. Yes I know the russians did this in the 60's and Kellog's Mucin and Threads cereal did this in the 70's, but ideas can be reborn for any decade.   

       Certainly this is engaging. It is not *RIGHT* that contrails exist for sure. They block the view of passing starlink satellites, change the climate, and should pay for taking up atmospheric advertising space.
mylodon, Apr 05 2023
  

       "Contrails are a concern in climate studies as increased jet traffic may result in an increase in cloud cover. Several scientific studies are being conducted with respect to contrail formation and their climatic effects. Cirrus clouds affect Earth's climate by reflecting incoming sunlight and inhibiting heat loss from the surface of the planet. It has been estimated that in certain heavy air-traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20%. Since contrails can spread out and essentially become cirrus clouds, it is felt that contrails may affect the planetary climate in similar ways. Other studies are underway to better understand the role that jet exhaust itself plays in modifying the chemistry of the upper levels of the atmosphere."   

       -- The U.S. Government
mylodon, Apr 05 2023
  

       Yeah okay... but it's way more than just water vapour being sprayed is all I'm saying.   

       Here anyways.
We're just a test dump run here with no radar data to confirm my accusation.
  

       ...yet I keep showing you guys.   

       ...at some point it becomes the jury and not the witness who is blind.   

       Hmm. Isn't the entire world already in a panic that exhaust, with properties that have been conspiratorially hidden, will be the end of us all?   

       Maybe I'm missing a subtle aspect of this thread.
mylodon, Apr 05 2023
  

       Well the thread began as just pointing out that freedom of speech was dying in the form of video in Canada before it had even been democratically voted on, and morphed into an apparently more interesting conversation on chemtrails, because I mentioned that they do not exist in Mexico since con-trails of any length can not form there, therefore I saw no chem-trails in Mexico.   

       But Chemtrails happen here all the time...
...I take videos of them.
  

       ...and here we are.   

       The trouble with free speech is that private organizations don't have to follow it and public ones use their innate rule by force to do what they want, including pushing private companies to do their censorship. The twitter files show that directly.   

       It's a little like the casting couch in Hollywood. Everyone knew about sleezeball producers. But it takes some time before people get the energy or build up a moral tipping point to throw them in jail.   

       I'm not sure how Trudeau keeps getting voted in. Hasn't it been about 20 years? But maybe hes good at his job. I just found his rules so harsh I was kept from his country.
mylodon, Apr 05 2023
  

       //[...] more interesting conversation on chemtrails, because I mentioned that they do not exist in Mexico since con-trails of any length can not form there, therefore I saw no chem-trails in Mexico.   

       But Chemtrails happen here all the time...//   

       Well, no.
You accept that contrails, i.e. trails behind planes of condensed water droplets, are a thing, and that they can exist only under certain conditions.
And you say Mexico doesn't have contrails, not having the right conditions for their formation.
And that Canada has different conditions, and contrails can form.
  

       And you have some videos showing things which look like contrails, in Canada.
Have you considered the possibility that they might actually /be/ contrails?
  

       I mean sure, seeing planes fly around in a loop does seem a bit wierd (you described it as 'loops'; in combination with the second video you posted - the one recorded first - it does look to me like it's made a single loop) but as pertinax pointed out, there are reasons why planes do that.   

       You also say:   

       //Then the entire balmy sky filled with clouds and it started to snow.//   

       The first video looks to me like there's a cloud already starting to think about snowing on the extreme right, apparently at some distance from the contrail. It's closer in the later video. And given the big piles of swept-up snow visible on the ground, surely snow isn't /desperately/ unusual?
Or are you blaming the entire Canadian winter climate on the planes?
Loris, Apr 05 2023
  

       //Have you considered the possibility that they might actually /be/ contrails?//   

       Of course, except that I've seen contrails my entire life.
Contrails dissipate.
Contrails do not spread out and cover an entire sky.
Contrails do not fall to Earth.
  

       //are you blaming the entire Canadian winter climate on the planes?//   

       Nope, but when we are told that jets are being used to changer weather patterns, and then see them doing so without evidence of any of those jets being on radar it bears pointing out is all.   

       Oh, derivative numbers are tight!
21 Quest, Apr 05 2023
  

       // Private jets, military aircraft, even boring commercial carries may not have 100% coverage there.   

       Specifically military aircraft are not tracked on any of the flight radar apps.
tatterdemalion, Apr 05 2023
  

       //So... to match up a trail you can see right now to something on FR24 or similar sites, you'd need to see the flight path drawn back for at least half an hour. If you can still see the plane itself, it's a lot easier - but you have to be looking in the right direction and know how far away you should be looking. A plane at 35000 feet, appearing 30 degrees above your horizon is about 13 miles away (line of sight), directly over a spot about 11 miles from where you're standing.//   

       No jets pull loops over this area as far back as you care to look. Straight lines as far as the eye can see.
We are not in any flight-plan queue here.
We just regularly get circularly dumped on by high altitude jets.
  

       I just report my observations and try to understand them.
This garners excessive flack, across the board in my opinion, and I bear it with a stiff upper lip.
  

       I don't need a knowledge of math to be observant.   

       ...and I know this for a fact.   

       Did those recent wandering balloons end up on that tracker page?   

       Lots of things out there in the air. Hard to argue that there are not things out there putting stuff in the air. .
mylodon, Apr 06 2023
  

       // If you're not willing to put in the effort then nobody has any reason to believe your assertions.//   

       Why that's almost exactly what you said when you pointed me towards the FlightRadar24 site.
Believe whatever you wish.
  

       Today the Super Scooper cloud is going to fall down
Raining in the sun (sup-p-per scoup-p-per)
washing every one (sup-p-per scoup-p-per)
Making sure the job is done
Super Scooper cloud is going to find me
Now I'm all wet through (sup-p-per scoup-p-per)
But I say thank you. (sup-p-per scoup-p-per)
'Cause now the fire's gone too.
  

       Sorry.
I saw a1's link, I couldn't help myself.
Loris, Apr 07 2023
  

       Super Trouper by Abba. Just the chorus.
Loris, Apr 07 2023
  

       I said 'sorry' above, so you're most welcome.
Loris, Apr 07 2023
  

       //look fast at the link I just posted, or else the data may go stale.//   

       Data goes stale now does it?
That's the new narrative?
  

       ...and we're all buying this bullshit are we? ...really?   

       //Data goes stale now does it?/   

       Yes, actually, it does, in some contexts.   

       There are various factors contributing to this - not wanting to pay for storage of large volumes, not wanting to slow down time-critical reports by bloating the data set, not wanting to fall foul of laws about data retention, not wanting to maintain data interrelationships over long periods (when other parties might change or move data you are relying on), and not being able to reconstruct the picture you want to see because of the decay of those relationships.   

       For a simple example, think about the link rot which you can see around the half-bakery.
pertinax, Apr 12 2023
  

       My bad.   

       With sites like the Wayback machine I assumed that all internet traffic after a certain date had been archived somewhere. By somebody. Probably several somebody's.   

       My common sense says that this is so, and that it is just not common public knowledge.   

       All data that can be stored has been stored, is being mined, and us peons get to experience the slag heaps.   

       I honestly envy being able to delve that deeply into topics.   

       Seriously.   

       Next incarnation I am all over it.   

       My first few links have changed into something entirely different from what I posted.   

       I didn't change them... so somebody else must have.   

       Just sayin.   

       By all means check it for yourselves, I sure as shit can't hack my way into or out of a wet paper bag as anyone in the know can tell.   

       ...so...   

       ...can those, 'in the know', isolate the actual motherfuckers?... and dissuade them from taking further action?   

         

       ...or are we going for round twelve?
Whomever you are.
  

       // first few links changed //   

       [2f] - I skimmed the first few links of yours on this thread, and the only one that seems goofed up is the “Funny Stuff” one. I can’t tell if you wanted to link Woody Harrelson’s SNL monologue, or a list of reactions TO his monologue. I relinked both for you.   

       Even though his monologue kinda went flat with the studio audience, I thought it was a good study in humor. If a joke doesn’t offend SOMEBODY, it’s probably not funny. A joke that can offend many people in many different ways is hilarious - and brilliant.
a1, Jun 04 2023
  

       Well now they're back. Matrix glitch.   

       Yep, Woody hit the nail right on the head.   

       If you're worried about link targets getting changed, you should check they're archived in the wayback machine. If they're not, you can request inclusion, I do it quite often now, for sites which might shut down, or transient content.
If you think that's not enough, you should probably archive them to your own hard disc.
Loris, Jun 06 2023
  

       // Woody hit the nail right on the head //   

       Here’s why it was brilliant: Different people could get totally different impressions of it. Worldwide conspiracy? Was he saying even a redneck hippie stoner like himself thought it too stupid to believe, even for a movie? Or was it that only a redneck hippie stoner COULD believe it?   

       Whichever you believe, go watch it again and try to see it another way.
a1, Jun 06 2023
  

       //you should probably archive them to your own hard disc//   

       That's a thought.   

       //Whichever you believe, go watch it again and try to see it another way.//   

       I think he told everybody able to listen that they all fell for the con for the exact same reason.
It was too outlandish to be true.
Or... as I've stated before, the con was too big to Not fall for, and so, fall for it almost everyone did. Including you.
  

       Why, to question Fauci was to question all of SCIENCE itself! How dare I?!   

       It's been a total crock of shit right from the get-go.
No.
That redneck stoner got it right. Nowhere near as fast as this particular redneck stoner clued in, but still... faster than most of y'all.
  

       Or are you still buying this panic-mode bullshit?
Driving alone wearing a cloth mask on your way to getting your next booster are you?
Insisting that five year old kids need to get the non-vaccine in order to attend school?
  

       How are those lock-downs in China going?
Seriously.
  

       Some of us don't get to see or share actual news anymore since the C-11 bill was undemocratically, (funny how that word flags as misspelled), pushed through...
...just as I said was about to happen when I posted this non-idea.
  

       Ha!   

       I typed that without re-watching his monologue, and when I just went to watch the link you fixed, this is the message that appears;   

       Video unavailable
The uploader has not made this video available in your country
  

       Our little china-funded pedo PM piece of shit needs to go.
I'm telling you guys, if those dictatorial assholes make us come down there again it will be with a hell of a lot more than trucks and bouncy castles.
This is Canada... not China.
  

       Blame youtube or whoever uploaded the file for not playing there. But go ahead and retry the Woody monologue link. I just changed it to the original source (NBC) instead of a youtube copy.
a1, Jun 08 2023
  

       Oh I found it again someplace our government hasn't gotten it's hooks into yet.   

       Youtube didn't censor its own Canadian content without being told that they had to.
"available in your country" didn't exist before now.
  

       We didn't vote the little shit in and now we can't seem to vote him out, while he and his bought and paid for cronies dismantle the freedoms our grandfathers were forced to fight and die to preserve.   

       The North remembers...   

       // "available in your country" didn't exist before now.   

       It's been around at least a decade, probably longer.
tatterdemalion, Jun 08 2023
  

       [tattereemalion], don’t gaslight the poor guy. It should be obvious that anytime something doesn’t work on his computer it’s part of their plot, if it starts working again it’s because he called out their fuckery, and the first time he notices something it must be the first time it has happened, ever.   

       I might have to add some verses to that poem.
a1, Jun 08 2023
  

       I've yet to have had a single thing pop up with a not available in your country tag here in Canada.   

       Maybe nobody needs to delete my search history when I die?..   

       Why it is that the first time I see that tag is Woody hosting SNL and dissing drug companies and the covid narrative is another question though.   

       Both past references to that off-script blurb on this thread are defunct now that C-11 has passed. I do not think this is coincidence.   

       So sue me.   

       So...   

       ...how them lock-downs in China working out again?
Nobody seems to want to answer that one.
  

       That's a bit like asking "How about *them* apples?" and then waiting around for an answer.   

       If you would like an answer, you might want to ask a less vague question. In the meantime, see link.
pertinax, Jun 09 2023
  

       Christ. SNL is blocked on Youtube in Canada because NBC sets country blocking on it. Another broadcaster owns Canadian rights and they have exclusive rights to put the SNL Youtubes up here. I think it's Global but I'm not 100%. I believe you can also watch it on Peacock streaming service in Canada.   

       This is a frequent thing among non-Canadian broadcasters and it's kinda baffling how you've never encountered this before, to the point where you have to be mistaken or lying about it, or just stupid. I'm not sure which.   

       // Why it is that the first time I see that tag is Woody hosting SNL and dissing drug companies and the covid narrative is another question though.   

       Because you're a nutjob who doesn't watch anything other than self-reinforcing conspiracy videos. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt.   

       [marked-for-deletion] moronic nonsense. Does anything ever get fucking deleted from this site anymore?
tatterdemalion, Jun 09 2023
  

       Hey, [tatterdemalion]; glad you could drop in.
pertinax, Jun 09 2023
  

       >SNL

Their pattern, and the pattern of all politicized "comedy" shows is this: Tell two truthful things, like "apples can grow red" and "apples can grow yellow.". Tell a half truth, like "apples are sour". Make a joke out of the Pear team not liking apples. Tell a complete lie, like "pears are usually toxic". Make it fast and also a joke to distract from the part of it that is a lie, but make it a joke built from a lie rather than a lie which is therefore a joke. Tell a complete truth like "apples are a fruit". Wrap up the show with "pears are acceptable but apples are better"
Voice, Jun 09 2023
  

       Thanks for the link [pertinax].
Those poor bastards.
  

       //Because you're a nutjob who doesn't watch anything other than self-reinforcing conspiracy videos. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt.//   

       Wow, okay. Most of what I surf is either links from postings here or comedy, and though people do sometimes send me links to watch, SNL isn't on that list, but you just keep telling yourself that.
<adds 'nutjob' to post plandemic label list>
  

       //<adds 'nutjob' to post plandemic label list>//   

       I didn't catch some of the references in the last few days; I didn't bother watching Woody Harrelson - but honestly 2fries, when you're spewing random sequences of slurs like this:   

       //Our little china-funded pedo PM piece of shit needs to go.//   

       Then you're probably not doing yourself any favours in that regard.
Loris, Jun 09 2023
  

       // <adds 'nutjob' to post plandemic label list> //   

       No need to be that specific. You're a filbert on a lot of topics and have been for years.
a1, Jun 09 2023
  

       Probably not, but like I said, we didn't vote him in and we can't vote him out for another two years. Meanwhile he is destroying this country.
Mortgages are expected to increase by 40%, power bills are expected to triple in a few years, we're farther in debt than we've ever been, he's giving money away billions to other countries, allowing Chinese police stations in our cities as well as bribes to the Trudeau foundation, censoring our internet, swapping out Canadian flags for pride flags, and his qualification for being able to run our country into the dirt?...
  

       ...he's a failed drama teacher with a marketable last name rattling off laws and levying ever increasing taxes like a dictator.   

       "I" am more bloody qualified to serve Canadians than that trust-fund-baby.   

       For example; in order to save the planet from climate change he is carbon taxing us, and then adding a carbon tax to the carbon tax while including Goods-and-services tax and also Provincial-sales-tax to both.
As though bankrupting our tiny .48% of the people on this planet will reduce the carbon emissions of places like India and Asia. It's a joke.
  

       Our federal government is raping us blind and he's the one denying us lube.
He's got to go. The whole Federal branch of government needs to go later, but we'll start with him.
  

       // "I" am more bloody qualified to serve Canadians //   

       Fried, grilled, or roasted?
a1, Jun 09 2023
  

       // like I said, we didn't vote him in   

       Speak for yourself. I voted for him and would again. He's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.
tatterdemalion, Jun 09 2023
  

       ^
Please don't tell me that you live above the 49th parallel. I understand your acclaim for him if you live within that portion of Canada as they are the ones benefiting from the rape of the 72% of the region living above that line.
  

       If you aren't from the French region of Canada then you're not really Canadian...
...you're just a sparkling fringe minority with, uh, unacceptable views forced to volunteer more money to the government than you get to keep from your labour.
  

       He will go down in history as the Prime Minister who inflicted more damage on Canadian citizens than all other PM's combined.
We are just seeing the tip of the storm he spearheaded.
  

       //Fried, grilled, or roasted?//   

       Raw.   

       Seasoning? A little salt rub, at least?
a1, Jun 10 2023
  

       Poisonous if not handled properly.   

       [2 Fries], as you mentioned it again elsewhere, I came back to refresh my memory on this one.   

       // The (Apr 4) video was taken facing south-east ... There should be a time-stamp on the video //   

       I don't see a time stamp on the video   

       I've posted a link that should let you playback most of the visible air traffic in your area for April 4, 2023.   

       A few caveats though:   

       1) In some web browsers, if you enter that link with a specific date, ADSB will flip to show you the CURRENT day's playback. If that happens, you can click the date field at the lower left of the playback window and set it to any date you want.   

       2) Even at the highest playback speed, it takes about 6 minutes to recap a full day of traffic. Amazing how boring it is to stare at a screen for even 6 minutes. Helps a lot of you can narrow it down to a specific hour - and maybe watch at a slower playback speed.   

       3) Even this may not help you ID the exact planes that left those trails - as has been mentioned before, ADBS-exchange and other sites don't show EVERY airplane.
a1, Dec 18 2023
  

       It's not that the site didn't show EVERY airplane, it didn't show ANY air traffic over a sky filled with contrails.   

       From the pictures you posted, the trails had been made by airplanes that were no longer in view - you images don't show where the started or ended, and they had already diffused. So you need to look at everything that had passed within a fairly broad range of time, distance and altitude. I'd make a guess that you should review the tracking for at least an hour before the time of your screen shot, altitude filtered for between 20000-40000 feet, and out to a distance of 50 miles or so.   

       The link I gave you will let you do that. I'll even do the work look for you this time IF you can give me an accurate time frame. But it would be better for you to learn on your own for next time.
a1, Dec 18 2023
  

       As much as I appreciate you offer of doing work on my behalf, I don't really need to know. Someone needs to though.   

       We are far enough removed from normal centres of jet travel that commercial aircraft do not pull u-turns over our heads ever, yet it's happened twice in two consecutive years.   

       I just observe and report.   

       ...badly I admit.   

       I'm working on it.   

       Just tell me within an hour or so the actual time you took the videos you linked on April 4. Is that too much to ask? Are you even sure you took them on April 4 and not some earlier date?
a1, Dec 19 2023
  

       The one with the flite24 clip was posted just after I finished filming it. I don't know of way to extract that information but it would narrow it down to a window of a few minutes.   

       Given our latitude, the shadows, and time of year I'd put it between noon and one.   

       If it happens again I'll do better.
Pinky swear.
  

       // ... Given our latitude, the shadows, and time of year I'd put it between noon and one //   

       Thanks, that helps. Surprised you don't remember in more detail though - do you have a daily routine? Like, was it before or after eating lunch, doing some specific chores, etc?   

       If I have time today or tomorrow I'll look at what air traffic was southeast of you from mid morning to early afternoon that day. I might be able to pinpoint the exact time by matching up aircraft on your screen grab, easier to do if I only to peruse an hour of tracking instead of a whole day.
a1, Dec 19 2023
  

       [marked-for-deletion] take this to your own blog
hippo, Dec 19 2023
  

       [hippo] Of course, I would second* that mark-for-deletion - especially if it was in connection with an IDEA. But the helpfile notes ""The [marked-for-deletion] rules are relaxed below Halfbakery::"   

       So I'm happy to indulge him here in a hb:users post of his own making - rather than seeing it spill into others' vaguely or completely unrelated idea suggestions.   

       * or third, fourth, Nth, depending on how you want to count.
a1, Dec 19 2023
  

       Found them. The date & stamp the video showing [2f]'s computer screen was Monday, 3 Apr 23, 20:10:42Z - around 2:10PM in British Columbia. I've linked a screen matchup and well as an image of air traffic just a short time earlier - highlighting some planes that may have left the contrails.
a1, Dec 20 2023
  

       "If" those are indeed the flight paths that day, did you see a single aircraft capable of filling the sky with contrails not flying in a straight line for days either before or after that day?   

       Airliners don't fly in circles here.   

       That's 'why' it caught my attention.   

       If there is no radar evidence of aircraft pulling doughnuts in the sky overhead this location that day...
...well, then is that not evidence of something weird going on?
  

       That's all I'm saying.   

       Yes, but you're an unreliable reporter, even contradicting yourself at times. You keep saying you'll do better, and I look forward to the day.
a1, Dec 20 2023
  

       //airplanes don't ever fly circles here//   

       There's the West Kootenay Regional Airport not too far from you, in Castlegar. Do they not ever have to fly holding patterns due to limited runway availability?
21 Quest, Dec 20 2023
  

       //I look forward to that day//   

       Do you?
Do you 'really' though?
  

       //Castlegar//   

       Castlegar has no commercial air traffic large enough to leave the contrails I showed...
...and so much fog that it is known here as Cancelgar from the amount of delayed flights.
  

       I'm not shitting you guys. I might have details fucked up because I don't keep notes like most folks, but I aim to speak true.   

       Offering to be more corroboration-ally aware as it pertains to providing evidence leading to said corroboration is all I can proffer, and as a man of my word,   

       ...   

       Take it or leave it.
That's what you're going to get.
  

       I would have thought that having called, before hand, 'every single aspect' of this recent plandemic fisco, not to mention decades of relaying new products before they market, would have garnerned me some street cred here by now.   

       Y'all got some learnin to do.   

       Oh I'm with you on the pandemic/"vaccine" nonsense.
21 Quest, Dec 20 2023
  

       This is why we have never crossed streams yet.   

       Too unpredictable.   

       //do you have a daily routine?//   

       HAH!   

       no   

       You want to say that louder for the Feds in the back?
21 Quest, Dec 21 2023
  

       The mere fact that you use the term "plandemic" in a way in which you mean to be taken seriously removes any and all street cred. Not that you really started with any on my street. Sorry. The simplest explanation, that you crave attention and are basically paranoid because of your different childhood is still the best.
RayfordSteele, Dec 22 2023
  

       //I look forward to (when you make better reports) //
// Do you? //
  

       Yes. When you see contrails or anything else in the sky you want to tell others about, include date, time, and direction it was from your location. Other notes like "directly overhead" or "on the horizon" or some relative measure in between are also helpful.   

       There's so much air traffic near you that I'd be surprised if you DIDN'T see contrails sometimes. But a shaky video shot at some unspecified time is hard to connect to anything.
a1, Dec 24 2023
  

       Noted.   

       //Plandemic... street cred//   

       That's exactly what it was.
An intentionally released man made virus with a premeditated response designed by the WEF to disrupt all societies and help usher in their one world government agenda by use of fear mongering to preempt human rights by force. Simple well documented Stockholm syndrome techniques.
These jabs are not vaccines.
The imposed mandates were not in our best interests.
Any medical practitioner holding fast to their Hippocratic oath got blackballed.
Any dissenting scientist was silenced.
Our politicians had already been bought beforehand and paid handsomely to systematically dismantle our infrastructures from within.
  

       They actually brag about infiltrating all levels of our respective governments, even going so far as to gloat about having trained future junior leaders and then financing their campaigns.
Literally their "Future Junior Leader" program.
It will go down in history as the single largest attempted con job ever perpetrated on humanity to date, and it sounds to me as though you may be ripe pickins for their next attempt.
  

       I called all of this shit from day one. All of it.
I have little hope for anyone who still can't see the writing on the wall.
My Street cred is very much intact.
  

       My Sheep cred on the other hand... not so much still.   

       rebuttal?   

       //rebuttal?//   

       You called nothing and all your claims are wrong.   

       Sorry, but you don't really have anything to back your claims. And by your own admission you're incapable of evaluating the evidence we've shown you, so you just ignore it.
Loris, Dec 31 2023
  

       //These jabs are not vaccines.//   

       That's easily falsifiable given a microscope. Go find one and a willing pharmacist to sell you a sample, and prove it one way or the other. Or else shut up about it.
RayfordSteele, Dec 31 2023
  

       //You called nothing and all your claims are wrong.//   

       hmmm, let's see...
I called the virus man made while we were still being told it was definitely natural and from a wet market.
None of you knew about the definition change of the word Vaccine removing the word 'immunity' before I posted it.
I called our Canadian truckers putting a stop to the mandates before they ever rolled out.
  

       Hell, I even sacrificed decades to get away from a major city and put myself in a position to be able to resist all of humanity pressuring me for years to put some experimental non-vaccine in my system.   

       //Prove it one way or the other. Or else shut up about it.//   

       Prove that the vaccines will keep me from getting covid and won't cause my heart to spontaneously stop beating and maybe I'll shut up about all of us being 'forced' against our will to allow that shit into our bodies while the makers of said shit remain immune from prosecution.   

       //I called the virus man made while we were still being told it was definitely natural and from a wet market.//   

       You mean you heard that somewhere and repeated it? Because I believe I heard that claim elsewhere first.
I still think natural origin is still the most probable pathway. Some make sympathetic noises about other options - some scientists in the field even think it may be an option, as in, a theoretical possibility - but it's not like opinion has flipped, not by any means.
And it's not like I didn't look into it - prodding by you and others on here made me investigate, and if I recall correctly it looked to me like racoon-dogs at the market were the most likely vector. It doesn't look like my post of findings on that survive, it probably went when bigsleep wiped himself.
  

       //None of you knew about the definition change of the word Vaccine removing the word 'immunity' before I posted it.//   

       Oh, we did - we just didn't care. It's just not the big deal you think it is.   

       //I called our Canadian truckers putting a stop to the mandates before they ever rolled out.//   

       I think I pointed out up-thread that this claim isn't compatible with the timeline of events.
Loris, Dec 31 2023
  

       [2f], please provide a link to any post you made prior to late 2019 referring to the pandemic, viruses, or vaccines. Here or anywhere else. And on the subject of "sacrificing decades to get away from a major city" to avoid vaccines - which decades were those?
a1, Dec 31 2023
  

       // I called all of this shit from day one. All of it.   

       Oh my fucking god are you still rambling about this crap?   

       NURSE!
tatterdemalion, Dec 31 2023
  

       //You mean you heard that somewhere else and repeated it?//   

       Nope. I didn't even know there was a convenient Virus Research Facility in the area when I called bullshit. I just know bullshit when I hear it.   

       As for the definition change of the word Vaccine and you knowing.   

       //Oh we did- we just didn't care. It's just not the big deal you think it is.//   

       You all did?
Sure you did, and sure it isn't a big deal.
No vaccine definition change, no vaccine mandates.
Huge deal.
  

       As for pointing out the timeline issues with our truckers ending the bullshit here we've already discussed this I am bang on the money.
Yes restrictions were lifting elsewhere while they were tightening here. They were going to frag our transportation industry and then fuck over our farmers next, so we stopped it, and then many other countries followed suit to stop their own governments from seizing total control over their citizenry.
I'm glad yours apparently smartened up without needing a country wide unreported protest but ours didn't... and it caught on didn't it?
  

         

       If we're calling for nurse I could uses a nice sponge bath. Yes I am still rambling on about this crap. Has the crap stopped?   

       [a1] I didn't call the pandemic happening. I just knew before hand that shit was going to hit the fan and set up my entire life to get away from a major centre before it did. Caronavirus was announced within days of my pulling that off ensuring that, no matter how much pressure was applied to me, I could tell the rest of humanity to go fuck itself before cowing to the majority.   

       //sacrificing decades... which decades?//   

       The glib answer is, all of them as I've been shown glimpses of coming things since I've been old enough to remember.
The specific answer is since 1999. That's when I really had a fire lit under my ass.
I saw a window of opportunity to be able to jump from the frying pan into the fire and then and get out before getting burned, so I packed up my family and moved to the place I most did not want to be because it was so depressed that a self employed couple with two children and three grand in the bank could qualify for a mortgage, and then spent the next seventeen years working double time to turn our $153,000 investment into a $690,000 payout to spend three years searching all of BC to get to this place like maybe two days before Caronavirus was announced.
  

       I self distanced before it was cool.   

       As I had never heard the term before I wrote it, I may very well be the first individual to coin the term Plandemic. It really wouldn't surprise me if I was...   

       ...because, it was and that's how that shit works.   

       Now I work my guts out in a race to make this place self sufficient enough to house several hundred people before the rest of the shit I've seen goes down.   

       No rest for the wicked.   

       // I didn't call the pandemic happening. I just knew before hand that shit was going to hit the fan //   

       You also said (yesterday) that you moved to avoid vaccinations - but there's no mention of vaccine avoidance in any of your pre-2020 posts either. I've linked excerpts of a couple 2019-2020 posts showing a distinct lack of prescience, but I still invite you to point out other remarks from that or earlier time frames that might make your point.   

       It's a poor seer who can only say they knew what was going to happen - after it already happened.
a1, Jan 01 2024
  

       //It's a poor seer who can only say they knew what was going to happen - after it already happened.//   

       Guys, mark my words: something bad is going to happen at some point this year.
Loris, Jan 01 2024
  

       We do have something of a tradition here of trying to post predictions about the upcoming year that's been going on over a decade. Surely a man of 2f's precognisant caliber would be able to demonstrate at some point during that decade, any time something ominous hits his little brain, the tiniest scrap of proof of his ability before the shit goes down, with some screenshot to show there wasn't a post-event edit. We leave the predictions up on the site all year. It's not like they go anywhere.   

       Your chance to astound us all awaits. And has been doing so since 2008-ish. But you probably knew I was going to say that.
RayfordSteele, Jan 01 2024
  

       We all I know I can't do that. Science can not accept intuition. I'm just the canary in the coal mine. I am sensitive to slight changes. That's all.
I get Glimpses of what future me feels. That's it. No specifics. Nothing concrete, just premonitions of how I am about to feel... maybe decades from now.
  

       That said... you really want to see what I see coming soon?   

       Okay. I'll give y'all a five year forecast. Cool? Great.   

       All of society considered colonial will have every major infrastructure point attacked.
The influx of refugees will have a percentage of sabotage brainwashees targeting other points of infrastructure not reachable by external means.
They will fail but...
The perpetual Islam/Jew altercation will escalate to epic proportions and infuse countries far removed from that conflict.
China will decide that it wants everything above a certain parallel and will invade Canada, (which they will come to regret).
The first nuclear strike will occur in the coming year or two and I would tell you which country strikes first but I prefer not to be a target.
The 'woke' movement falls on its face.
God help us all but Trump becomes president of the US again.
  

       2025 is just a complete cluster fuck.   

       Nothing future is written yet and can change.   

       I would be more glad to be wrong about the things I've said than you can know.
Don't blame me for being right in advance.
  

       Deal?   

       [a!] I never once said I moved to avoid vaccination. Caraonavirus wasn't a thing before I moved. That's bullshit! Show me otherwise...   

       ...or piss off with that line.   

       That’s a very common line from people who claim to be able to predict the future. They want credit for everything they get right and for all the things they get wrong they point to their // Nothing future is written yet and can change// disclaimer.
hippo, Jan 02 2024
  

       [2f], I do believe YOU believe what you say, at least at the time you say it. But like a badly retconned movie sequel, when we look back at earlier scripts there are things that don't line up or are missing completely.   

       This is one of the few times *I* will say "prove me wrong." All you have to do is point out some pre-2019 comments that foreshadowed anything you've said more recently about vaccines or why you moved to Christina Lake.
a1, Jan 02 2024
  

       //We all I know I can't do that. Science can not accept intuition. I'm just the canary in the coal mine. I am sensitive to slight changes. That's all. I get Glimpses of what future me feels. That's it. No specifics. Nothing concrete, just premonitions of how I am about to feel... maybe decades from now.   

       That said... you really want to see what I see coming soon?   

       Okay. I'll give y'all a five year forecast. Cool? Great.   

       All of society considered colonial will have every major infrastructure point attacked. The influx of refugees will have a percentage of sabotage brainwashees targeting other points of infrastructure not reachable by external means. They will fail but... The perpetual Islam/Jew altercation will escalate to epic proportions and infuse countries far removed from that conflict. China will decide that it wants everything above a certain parallel and will invade Canada, (which they will come to regret). The first nuclear strike will occur in the coming year or two and I would tell you which country strikes first but I prefer not to be a target. The 'woke' movement falls on its face. God help us all but Trump becomes president of the US again.   

       2025 is just a complete cluster fuck.//   

       I've seen people rigorously try to predict the future (not because they think they are precogs, but to evaluate their world-views).
Often they try to make bets against each other, which they think is useful because it keeps people honest.
And the thing which sticks out to me is that defining exactly what you mean and what would qualify as a successful prediction is /very/ important.
  

       In your list above, I think only a single one of them is reasonably 'solid' ("The first nuclear strike will occur in the coming year or two"). And honestly, that could be improved. I'd give a probability on use of a nuke on foreign territory or a terrorist attack above 1% this year, without a great deal of analysis. That's much higher than it would have been five years ago, the world is just more unsettled now. Which means even if it happens, by itself it's not going to give me confidence in your predictive powers.
The Trump presidency one in particular is not informative - unless you're willing to commit to it completely. That is, a significant fraction of people think it's a possibility already, so it isn't useful (except in aggregate with many other predictions). Why not? Well, I can predict the sun will rise tomorrow, and indeed, in every single 24-hour period of 2024, but I doubt this would persuade anyone of my precognitive abilities. Even medium-probability events are similar - you might just be lucky.
All the others are too vague, and arguably three of them have already happened.
  

         

       //Nothing future is written yet and can change.   

       I would be more glad to be wrong about the things I've said than you can know.//   

       This is ... well, that's fine. But the thing is, this sounds a lot more like what most people do, which is trying to guess what the future will be like given the present.
Whereas - you've been claiming that you have precognition, and you literally knew things would happen.
  

       I mean - above you claim you 'saw' in 1999 that things would go wrong, but apparently not specifically the covid pandemic. Great, but, like, epidemiologists have been expecting some sort of pandemic for way longer than that. They didn't know what it would be, but it wasn't a question of if but when and how bad. (And of course, conspiracy theorists had a field day with all the attempts to prepare in any way.)
Loris, Jan 02 2024
  

       Since this isn't going away I'll weigh in with what might be another perspective.   

       Let's put aside for a second the question of if Covid was a purposeful operation from a lab or a beautiful natural zoonotic infection transfer, nature just doing it's thing, or even a psyop used to exert control over the masses.   

       Since it's brought up the SUBJECT of gain of function research, not necessarily the fact of its practice, but the SUBJECT of gain of function research, isn't that something that might be discussed? I feel like I've been given two evaluations to look at and the demon behind this whole thing, the biggest issue possibly facing mankind now can't even be looked at.   

       Even if this WAS NOT a gain of function experiment gone wrong, gain of function research going awry, or purposefully used as a biowarfare weapon ABSOLUTELY COULD KILL MILLIONS OF PEOPLE and I'm handed this menu of what I can discuss, that does not include that.   

       It's like if a city blows up and there's controversy about why, the Demicunts believe it was a volcano, and the Republicraps think it was a bomb, then I'm told the debate is should we wear helmets when these cities blow up or not.   

       I'm saying, "Can we find out what blew the city up, and if not, can we address how to prevent EITHER possible scenario in the future?   

       The answer in this analogy would be "NO! You've been given the subjects that can be debated, you can't ask questions not on the approved debate list! Are you pro helmet or anti helmet?"   

       I think gain of function research could possibly wipe out pretty big chunks of humanity, and masks and vaccines might not necessarily be the magic panacea to solve the problem. I'm also not naive enough to think outlawing it is going to have any more efficacy than telling criminals "Don't do crime."   

       But this sword of Damocles is ignored and we're just allowed to play this game of "Who's the most stupid?" after the city blows up.   

       Can we at least think about looking into, maybe possibly not having any more cities blow up?   

       The answer is "Okay, conspiracy theorist, you loose in this "Who's the most stupid?" game. Who's next?"   

       And when the highest and mightiest say "What problem? That problem's been solved by our side, vaccines and masks." I say "Millions of people died with vaccines and masks. Even if it mitigated the problem, why are we not allowed to discuss preventing it at its point of origin, be it a lab that experiments with bat viruses or a wet market 20 minutes away from that lab? Was it a wet market? Okay, what steps have been taken to prevent this from happening in the future? Answer: none. Lab leak: Steps to prevent that happening in the future: Answer: none."   

       The answer is we've been given our debate points and we should be obedient sheep and stop asking the wrong questions.   

       Bottom line, if this global pandemic WASN'T created in a lab, after seeing the incredible power such pandemics could potentially yield in war, it's no doubt being researched now, and THAT'S what bears some discussion, as does the "cure" being potentially worse than the problem in personal freedoms of the people being arbitrarily taken away by an empowered state doing the old "Never let a good crisis go to waste." axiom.   

       My opinion is that the good-mask-people vs bad-no-mask-people debate isn't getting us anywhere and there might be bigger problems we should be looking at.   

       My two cents anyway.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       I thought the important questions where what did [2 fries] know about it? And WHEN did he know?
a1, Jan 02 2024
  

       I think you're absolutely right that there should be discussion about... well, everything.
But if the subject is something about which you know very little, then I think you ought to be at least a little humble.
  

       I'd say scientists in the West are pretty uninhibited about discussing things. There was quite a lot of talk and research like you seem to be asking for in scientific circles, but a lot of it was misinterpreted by the media and the public. The huge number of people spouting rubbish about things they didn't understand on social media etc. was pretty disastrous. I'm not sure what the solution is to that. If politics is an issue in the USA, well, maybe that's what you ought to be railing at. Having two sides which call each other names, can't stand each other and utterly fail to be rational isn't helpful.
In the UK things are a bit calmer, still. We have this concept of "loyal opposition", which I think is pretty powerful on that front.
  

       Regarding the origin of Covid, I'd like to review this, starting off by defining and distinguishing between four possibilities:   

       1) 'Natural' outbreak - disease spread into the human population due to 'naïve' interactions.
This would include spread from the wet-market.
  

       All the others involve research, presumably involving the local research lab.   

       2) Accidental release, 'passive': During the basic process of going to the wild and collecting samples and storing/processing them, a researcher or hanger-on became infected and carried this back to civilisation.   

       3) Accidental release, 'active': While researching how to deal with disease, researchers deliberately made new strains which were more infective to humans, and somehow this escaped containment.   

       4) Deliberate release of the disease (engineered or not), with subtypes
4a) as some sort of experiment
4b) with some sort of political goal.
4c) bioterrorism by a disaffected researcher
  

       I think it's clear that all of these are possible - they've literally all happened for other diseases (with the possible exception of (4b) which is hard to pin down as a motive).
1) has happened multiple times just so far this century in both Africa and in China.
2) e.g. Birmingham UK, 1978 smallpox outbreak, 1 direct death..
3) IIRC happened in soviet Russia, don't remember the details
4a) e.g. Operation Sea-Spray, San Francisco Bay; cluster of rare, serious urinary tract infections, 11 cases, 1 death.
4c) 2001 anthrax attacks, America - 5 deaths.
  

       So, it would be a foolish scientist who would flat out deny any of these options were possible without good evidence.
And yes, it would be great if China were more transparent, and the investigation could have been wide-ranging and transparent.
  

       But, like, deliberate release by the state of an infectious disease in your own, large population centre, i.e. 4a or 4b would be an incredibly dumb thing to do. Conspiracy theorists are fixated on 4b, but... well, to put it mildly I think that raises more questions than it answers. And as soon as powerful people like Trump started making accusations of that sort of thing, well, there went any chance of cooperation.   

       In terms of the baseline assumption of why an outbreak of an unknown strain occurs, it's almost always going to be (1), because we know that happens a lot.
For Covid-19 in particular, the research seems to place the epicentre at the wet-market, not the lab, and largely seems to support it coming from animals sold there. If you look hard, there are science papers which disagree with that, and maybe their arguments look plausible. Some people look at that and see evidence of conspiracy, but I think it's the opposite. You shouldn't stop there - if you look further, you can see people making plausible arguments against those! Doing science is really hard and complicated and people make mistakes or misuse tools all the time!
Getting a good, deep feel for a topic in science is hard, and I don't think everybody should be expected to do so - but conversely, I don't think they should be going ~Oh, I googled and found a reference to 'spike protein' in a paper before the pandemic, therefore CONSPIRACY!~. It's practically immoral, in my opinion.
  

       //Okay, what steps have been taken to prevent this from happening in the future? Answer: none. Lab leak, steps to prevent that happening in the future: Answer: none."//   

       I don't think that's true. China very heavily restricted the bushmeat trade. Whether that's ongoing I don't know. I'm not party to China's research management, but given the amount of embarrassment it caused I expect any slack standards there will have been tightened up quite a bit there too.
Loris, Jan 02 2024
  

       //But if the subject is something about which you know very little, then I think you ought to be at least a little humble.//   

       See what I mean? "Stop asking questions and know your place, for I am the one with all the answers."   

       Thank you for illustrating my point.   

       And since you're intimately knowledgeable about the current state of gain of function research with regards to potential for use in biowarfare, I'll assume you've checked with all your high level government connections around the world and we have nothing to worry about. Thanks for the assurance. If you were to go back and actually read what I said, that was my other main point, which in that long, long, long criticism, you didn't even address.   

       You don't even know my positions on the pandemic and all its controversies, you just know they're wrong.   

       Let that sink in.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       Doc, it depends on who's making a claim, what their credentials are, and how they react to counterclaims.   

       For example, I *know* you more about music than I do. If you tell me something about playing an instrument, a bit of band history, the music industry, etc... I'd probably believe you. If it sounded really crazy I might look it up or ask you for more info - or thank you for sharing your insight if I learned something.   

       The counter example would be someone who makes it clear that they've never studied a subject (except for maybe watching some youtube videos), reject what others have documented, and insist they're right about something because they're ... intuitive? psychic? brilliant? "special?" in some way others can't understand.   

       Sure they deserve a *little* forbearance and patience - but eventually there's nothing for them but ridicule.
a1, Jan 02 2024
  

       ////But if the subject is something about which you know very little, then I think you ought to be at least a little humble.//   

       //See what I mean? "Stop asking questions and know your place, for I am the one with all the answers."
Thank you for illustrating my point.//
  

       I don't think you took that in the sense intended. Did you not read the first line, directly above the one you quoted?   

       You must also have missed the section where I described the enormous toxicity of the discourse, mentioning how people were willing to promote conspiracy theories about researchers they cooked up on the spot.
If you're going to shit on someone who is genuinely trying to discuss things with you, you're part of that problem yourself.
  

       //And since you're intimately knowledgeable about the current state of gain of function research with regards to potential for use in biowarfare, I'll assume you've checked with all your high level government connections around the world and we have nothing to worry about. Thanks for the assurance. If you were to go back and actually read what I said, that was my other main point, which in that long, long, long criticism, you didn't even address.//   

       Thanks again for the sarcasm. I wouldn't call myself an expert in epidemiology -I'm not even in the loop, let alone government. As I've made clear numerous times before.   

       So... what was your 'main point', then?
Worries about "gain of function research going awry"?
I thought I was establishing a new, steady base to build from in discussion; things we could all agree was true as to the covid outbreak. You say you don't want to distract yourself from worrying about GoF by whether it was actually involved, but I think if it wasn't involved then it's fair to say that it's less of a concern.
  

       Like, should we be worried about an event where a presidential candidate drank the blood of a baby in a satanic ritual in a basement under a pizza restaurant?
Whether the pizza restaurant in question /has/ a basement is surely relevant.
  

       But perhaps I should have addressed "gain of function" directly? I've written about that before... apparently not in this thread. In "<shrugs>" I responded directly to you.
I don't have anything new to say about it over what I said there; gain of function of disease capacity of pathogens should be - and is - carefully regulated in the west. China... well, I'm not in any position to say, am I? However, on this I did already make the point that the adversarial attitude displayed by e.g. the US administration wasn't going to improve communication.
Gain of function as a biological term covers much more than that though, and most of it is essentially safe - it doesn't involve pathogens or genes related to infectious disease.
Loris, Jan 02 2024
  

       //If you're going to shit on someone who is genuinely trying to discuss things with you, you're part of that problem yourself.//   

       Like scolding somebody for not being humble enough and daring to ask questions?   

       But glad gain of function research isn't always about destroying all life on Earth, who knew? And since you know that it's "well regulated" I guess we have nothing to worry about.   

       This is a complicated issue facing all of mankind. Can it be discussed without mindless tribalism kicking in? The answer is no, but I already knew that so there's really no point in even trying.   

       Put my view out there for whatever it's worth. Maybe nothing which is fine.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       It doesn't take a precog to recognize that the world is stressed and the next decade is going to be hard for a host of reasons that mostly resort to a lack of general resources and climate change driving huge shifts in arable land and wars with the haves from the have-nots will come as a result.   

       There's a difference between asking questions and making accusations. And when those questions have been already answered but aren't listened to then that's just being a cunt.
RayfordSteele, Jan 02 2024
  

       Thank you for giving that excellent example.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       //Like scolding somebody for not being humble enough and daring to ask questions?//   

       Um, right.   

       Did I scold you?
No I didn't.
Did I say not to ask questions?
No, I didn't.
If you read what I wrote again, you should see I was saying the opposite.
  

       So if you want to ask questions, go ahead. But... well, I feel like I for one have been pretty patient at rebutting misinformation and responding to questions on the halfbakery - honestly, and to the best of my ability. And mostly the answers have been ignored - and where they haven't, I've been accused of being deceitful.   

       Not a big deal in a global sense, of course, and you've been generally decent - so why the sudden shift now?
Loris, Jan 02 2024
  

       This is a very important subject and I haven't bothered weighing in because it's a lot of nasty name calling to see who's top of the dog pile. Ray just proposed he's top dog because he can call people cunts. Einstein would be proud.   

       2 Fries had made some valid points in my opinion about government malfeasance regarding this issue and seeing him be ganged up against, I thought I'd do the old ghetto move from my youth, stepping in to defend somebody being ganged up on.   

       But I had no illusions how it would turn out.   

       I think it's very possible that the next world war will be fought with global data network subversion or annihilation and bioweapons featuring weaponized pathogens. I think that's a pretty big threat and probably something worth discussing.   

       Was seeing if there might be some Venn diagram overlap here but evidently not. I'm told I can only discuss masks, vaccines and politics and that, like it or not, I've got to pick a side: A- the cunts, or B- the other cunts.   

       Not really interested.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       This conversation has had multiple threads and multiple times during which I've witnessed perfectly valid answers, mostly from Loris and some from Max as well ignored or misunderstood or something. So yes, I call 'em when I see 'em, and as there are all kinds of people in the world, some aren't worth the argument.
RayfordSteele, Jan 02 2024
  

       I though Maxwell Buchannan was dead. Have we awakened him from his grave with this incessant brawling?   

       Sorry Max, we'll keep it down.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       It literally was going on that long. In various forms.
RayfordSteele, Jan 02 2024
  

       Well, I’m fine with changing the subject.
doctorremulac3, Jan 02 2024
  

       How the hell am I supposed to have time to respond to the amount of questions and feedback?   

       I told you people how I work. It ain't at a fucking desk!   

       It's 10:49 here. I'm going to bed.
Fuck.
Chill out.
  

       i saw a contrail over the Christmas vacation and thought of you guys and this thread. I haven't seen one in the country where I live for a very long time. Happy new year, and hopefully this year all the heavily funded labs out there nominally stalling outbreaks do a better job.   

       .
mylodon, Jan 13 2024
  

       It was probably nefarious.
a1, Jan 13 2024
  

       My offspring remarked, "what is that?" and I had to answer, 'It's complicated. It could be water vapor. But it also could be pretty much anything else." I didn't mention anything else in detail because I'm not quite ready to destroy what is currently a very optimistic excitement about a wonderful world.   

       Some people forget sometimes that we exist in a bubble of pure magic on the fringes of absolute probabilities. We are actually gods, and we are nearly omnipotent and actually manipulate reality, and even now there are over a billion worshipers of us; even if many of us are Loki.
mylodon, Jan 14 2024
  

       // My offspring remarked, "what is that?" //   

       Don’t tell me if you don’t want to, but I’m curious where you live that contrails are so rare. Some place with little air traffic, very warm and dry, or both?   

       There’s a passage in Jack Finney’s classic “Time and Again” where a woman from 1882 is briefly transported to 1970. She wasn’t surprised by airplanes (”Of course, I’d have expected you to have them by now”) but puzzled by seeing long, thin, ruler straight clouds in the sky.
a1, Jan 14 2024
  

       It's a place that can't afford fancy chemicals to subdue the population. Just trashy TV. Strangely, that seems to work better.
mylodon, Jan 14 2024
  

       //Einstein would be proud//   

       I've been reading "American Prometheus", the book on which the movie "Oppenheimer" was based. Most of the content will be known to most of you, but I stumbled on this, about the declining years of the great mathematician Kurt Goedel:   

       It seems that he suffered from malnutrition, because he had convinced himself that someone was poisoning his food (it's not clear who, how, or why). And his only friend was Einstein. On the one hand, it's so sad that he only had one friend. On the other hand, his friend was Einstein.   

       I wish there were some way of thanking Einstein for being a friend to Goedel.
pertinax, Jan 14 2024
  
      
[annotate]
  


 

back: main index

business  computer  culture  fashion  food  halfbakery  home  other  product  public  science  sport  vehicle