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Apparently this is a very new thing even though the statistics say it was the norm 150 years*** ago. But here we are in the paid for science era we like to call 2021.
I give you a new diet acronym - the L-SODOFF diet. The recommended packaging logo has an extended middle finger alongside the AHA,
FDA and CDC logos.
The diet plan is simple - avoid all seed oils that have an intolerably high level of PUFA's (Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids). You can still guzzle sugar and sandwiches, but better not use those seed oil spreads - use butter, or lard* or beef dripping with the tasty brown stuff on top.
And I'm afraid fast food is out unless you specify "I'm allergic to seed oils".
Our diet is fully supported by the latest science**. <waves hand in general direction of some poor quality internet links below/>
* Actually not lard as pigs are fed on soy and their fat in turn contains a high PUFA content.
** Humans also build up a high PUFA content in their fat due to seed oils leading to most western diseases. <waves hand for a second time in general direction of some poor quality internet resources/>
*** First link contains unfortunately accurate history.
Dr. Chris Knobbe - 'Diseases of Civilization: Are Seed Oil Excesses the Unifying Mechanism?'
Way too many papers (see bottom left corner) [bigsleep, May 18 2021]
Dr Cate Shanahan, omega 3 vs omega 6 benefits, Is Saturated Fat Bad For You?
[bigsleep, May 18 2021]
Why Your Doctor Is Wrong About Statins and Fat by Dr Paul Mason
"Don't confuse eminence with evidence" [bigsleep, May 18 2021]
The Omnivore's Dilemma
[a1, May 18 2021, last modified May 19 2021]
[pocmloc, May 20 2021]
Diets and Heart problems.
[bs0u0155, May 20 2021]
Automobiles and obesity
[a1, May 20 2021]
Obesity and hypovitaminosis D: causality or casualty?
"Vitamin D deficiency is a global and increasing health challenge. Serum 25(OH)D is not only a predictor of bone health, but it is also an independent predictor of other chronic diseases. In particular, low levels of 25(OH)D are highly frequent in obesity." [bigsleep, May 21 2021]
Possible counterexample for [a1]
... regarding diet, exercise and metabolism [pertinax, May 23 2021]
Binocular vision ain't for everybody
[doctorremulac3, May 23 2021]
What we gonna do right here is go back ... way back ... [a1, May 24 2021]
a slightly different evolutionary take
for [dr3] [pertinax, May 26 2021]
||YouTube doctors - this looks legit
||Hehe. I'm pretty sure they all have careers and are just using video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for books and talks.
||//Our diet is fully supported by the latest science**.
<waves hand in general direction of some poor quality
internet links below/>//
||The links aren't that low quality. I haven't watched all of
the material but there's no screaming logical jumps.
From the outset in the first one however, the claim that
heart attacks were uncommon in the past needs
qualifying. They certainly were noted in ancient Greece
among the population that got to the right sort of age.
||But, routinely investigating why people drop dead isn't
common until the last century. Even when my Dad was
young in the 50's, he remembers everyone died of
"consumption". Commonly, that's TB, but it was used as a
catch all for any failure of the CV system: lung cancer,
silicosis, heart attacks, pulmonary embolisms etc.
||The main driver behind the rise in modern diseases like
cancer and heart problems is simply getting to the age
when they happen. However, I'm in general agreement
that a number of organizations, eg. the AHA jumped right
on the "these fats good, those fats bad, I'll take that
funding thank you very much" with pretty weak evidence.
I'm also on board with mitochondrial dysfunction being at
the core of a ton of diseases (look up Doug Wallace, he
does a nice job of deconstructing the anatomical logic
that pervades a lot of medicine).
||However, it's a jump to say that the lipid make up of what
we eat is a direct cause. Studies in rodents are a huge
part of the established knowledge in health research, but
they're terrible if convenient models for many things.
||Take the "high fat diet". You feed mice 30-60% of their
calories as fat* and they become obese and diabetic. Lots
of conclusions were jumped to following these data. That
this can be extrapolated to humans is the most egregious.
Mice are a dreadful model for humans in terms of
metabolism. They have a very high basal metabolic rate,
they have small brains, huge livers and cope poorly with
even 12hr food depravations, preferring instead to eat
more or less constantly. Contrast that to humans, who for
most of our existence, killed a big ungulate every couple
of weeks, then sat around with bulging bellies making
more spears or whatever. We're much better adapted to
storing, then using energy than mice, not at the level of
bears, but closer.
||We have no idea what constitutes an ideal human diet,
we're actually a long way of having good experimental
evidence for anything more than short term feed>look at
the blood. Personally, butter is nearly always the correct
||*Interestingly, they use lard. A mouse, getting 60% of its
calories from saturated fats is MORE likely to be a
problem for them, since they're adapted largely to
convert plant lipids to the lipids they need for their
tissues, this is the other way around.
||// Mice ... have small brains, huge livers and cope poorly
with even 12hr food depravations, preferring instead to eat
more or less constantly. //
||That's sounds like a pretty solid model for a lot of people I
know. But in every other aspect, I agree with your outline -
human nutrition & metabolism is too complicated for a
reductionist approach of saying "Avoid this one thing."
||Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma" <link> looks into
health aspects as well as social and political ones. His
dietary advice comes down to seven words...
||"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."
||[bs0u0155] Thanks for taking the time to review the links.
||To me as a layman it seems obvious that something happened around the world to trigger a wave of obesity and it wasn't linked to the availability of an abundance of food.
||//The main driver behind the rise in modern diseases like cancer and heart problems is simply getting to the age when they happen//
||Doesn't seem right. We see obesity in all ages, including toddlers.
||//I'm also on board with mitochondrial dysfunction being at the core of a ton of diseases (look up Doug Wallace, he does a nice job of deconstructing the anatomical logic that pervades a lot of medicine). //
||//Interestingly, they use lard. A mouse, getting 60% of its calories from saturated fats//
||Pig fat is now unfortunately full of PUFAs due to the feed. I was reading a few livestock articles and it mentioned how you could tell the PUFA content of fat by how soft it was. Remember when bacon had solid fat ?
||// something happened around the world to
trigger a wave of obesity and it wasn't linked to
the availability of an abundance of food //
||Abundance of food is only part of it. People getting
less exercise is the other part. In many places in
the world, its only been the past few
generations that have had enough to eat and
didnt have to work their asses off to get it.
||Yes, but its not a straight forward link. One claim is that mitochondrial dysfunction caused by seed oils is stopping fat from being burned. So more food and sugar is consumed to keep the metabolism going.
||I would love to see a chart of the introduction of seed oils correlating with obesity for each country. India for example has more than quadrupled its import of sunflower oil in the last 15 years which correlates with its late start in rise of obesity. The US on the other hand had obesity very early on and pioneered chucking cheap oil, originally cottonseed oil, into everything.
||Currently reading David Raubenheimer, Stephen J. Simpson's book (link above). Two entomologists who studied insect feeding behaviour and broadened out to consider all animals including Humans. Their work looks extremely thorough and rigorous but their book is written as a popular overview.
stopping fat from being burned. So more food
and sugar is consumed to keep the metabolism
||No matter how you change metabolism - take in
more calories than you burn off through exercise,
you gain weight. Exercise to burn more than you
take in, you lose weight.
||Its that simple. Prove me wrong.
||// I would love to see a chart of the introduction
of seed oils correlating with obesity for each
||So would i, along with some other metrics -
average per capita calorie consumption, amount of
exercise, mapped by country over a period of at
least 50 years. Problem is I can find bits and
pieces scattered over graphs and studies that used
different methodologies, so theyre not easily
||Would you believe the USA *doesnt* have the
highest obesity rates in the world? Doesnt even
make the top ten on most charts. How much seed
oil do you they they use in Nauru or Tonga?
||Almost the same material but without the finger pointing.
||<points finger at McShakes containing E471/>
||So that's only 3 things in the last few days that can contribute to mitochondrial dysfunction - Seed oils, Roundup and now some emulsifiers like E471.
||//introduction of seed oils correlating with obesity for
||If it gave you any kind of positive, it'd have a good chance
of it being a false positive. There's SO much going on at
the same time, really big shifts affecting huge swathes of
the global population. Think of nature of work, at my age
my grandparents were either working 12hr shifts in a silk
mill or ship yard. I manipulate spreadsheets on my arse
for the same period. There used to be the radio or you'd
drag yourself to a picture house for a news reel and a
film, now: 24hr access to almost anything you want.
||//Hehe. I'm pretty sure they all have careers and are just
using video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for
books and talks//
||You could say the same for 'America's Frontline Doctors' group
that was pushing vaccine misinformation earlier.
||re "youtube doctors" that "all have careers and are just using
video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for books
||That must break up the monotony of actually practicing
medicine, doing research, or trying to get work peer reviewed
and published someplace other than the tubes.
||I would also point out that there are populations who eat
wildly different diets, and studies in Inuit populations
reporting low heart attack incidence seem to be wrong
<link>. There are enough people, even in the US - e.g.
Alaska that live on wild fish/ungulates/birds, that we'd
notice if they didn't age significantly.
||I'd also point out that ageing links mitochondrial
dysfunction with a ton of diseases. But ageing isn't an
accident, it's a feature not a bug. Yeast age, you can
modulate it with what you feed it, but ultimately they all
||//No matter how you change metabolism - take in more
calories than you burn off through exercise, you gain
weight. Exercise to burn more than you take in, you lose
|| Its that simple. Prove me wrong.//
||This is where animal models demonstrate that
composition, rather than calories, can have an effect.
Mice (&rats, and a couple of other models I can't
remember) fed an isocaloric diet high in fat, become
obese and sick. Part (not all) of the solution is that they
move less, but moving less is a symptom in mice, it's not a
cause here. The only change is the composition of the
diet, even the genetics are controlled, lab mice are
genetically homogeneous. There are diet-induced
changes, UPSTREAM of the movement that cause them to
not want to move around so much. I'm not well-informed
enough to go further into that, but it does suggest that a
similar mechanism might operate in humans.
||[bs0u0155], you said yourself that mice weren't a good
model for human metabolism. I'd have to question if that
restricted diet on cloned mice tells us anything useful in
connection to the wide range of human diets and habits.
||But for the sake of argument (xkcd 1432), let's try a
hypothesis: Suppose there's something in seed oils (or other
stuff people commonly eat) that 1:Packs on the calories,
and 2:Makes you unwilling or even unable to do enough
exercise to burn them off.
||- Does that model fit current observations of obesity / diet
trends in any human society?
||- Are there any data that contradicts it?
||- Can you device a controlled experiment with human
volunteers, predict results, test it?
||//weren't a good model for human metabolism. I'd have
to question if that restricted diet on cloned mice informs
us about anything within human diet and habits.//
||They are a poor model. We should probably be using pigs.
But, the HFD does demonstrate the principle that
composition alone can generate obesity etc.
||//something in seed oils )or other stuff people commonly
eat) that 1- Packs on the calories, and 2- Makes you
unwilling or even unable to do enough exercise to burn
||I suspect it's more about what isn't there. If you MAKE fat,
from sugars/alcohol etc. It will not have any essential
fatty acids, because we can't make those, which is why
they're essential. If you don't burn much fat, because of
sedentary lifestyles, or relative oversupply, then what
essential fatty acids remain will be progressively diluted
in a growing lipid pool. Sadly, the signaling isn't specific.
Cells call for fatty acids, they're secreted and circulate
with cholesterol. The cells go "hang on, I don't need
these, wrong fats" and they're incorporated incorrectly, or
go back into circulation.
||//Does that model fit current observations of obesity /
diet trends in any human society?//
||Maybe, but there's so much else going on. What's going on
might just be explained by the switch from bicycles to
cars, or farm work to office work, or both, or neither.
||//Can you device a controlled experiment with human
volunteers, predict results, test it?//
||Yes, but it would be decades long and staggeringly
expensive. Humans are terrible subjects for this kind of
thing. Some will die from unrelated reasons, some will
wander off, some will decide they've had quite enough of
Diet B. Most will lie.
||It took an extremely expensive experiment in primates to
demonstrate that caloric restriction doesn't work. It's still
not clear if the mechanism that's preserved from yeast to
mice doesn't hold, or if being hungry most of the time
was a more potent psychological stress.
||// What's going on might just be explained by the switch from
bicycles to cars //
||MIGHT be explained? I wanted to say that earlier but couldn't
find a way to squeeze it into a post that was already too long. The automobile has had a bigger effect on human shapes (and
about a gazillion other aspects of human society) than anything
else we've discussed here.
||//might just be explained by the switch from bicycles to cars, or farm work to office work, or both, or neither.//
||This is where an epidemiology study usually steps in and gets things wrong. As a stupid example, there could be good epidemiological proof that the keto diet works, but in reality its just that when omitting bread from the diet there is nothing to use seed oil mayo and spreads on. Unless the study controls for *everything* there is a question mark hanging over the study.
||So there's people lying to wreck a study, but also that the study can't really tease any meaningful data out of the rare interesting incidences that emerge from even a large scale epidemiological diet study. Hence the recent trend to aggregate previous studies to reach 'new' possibly profitable results. Allegedly.
||Let's get something straight.
||This is a website for silly inventions. It is not a
website for bringing forth every alternative nook and
conspiracy cranny that you happen to find and want
to discuss with someone. Find a chat site for that.
||//So that's only 3 things in the last few day//
||Make that 4. It seems our old friend Vitamin D is making an appearance [link]. Thomas DeLauers last 2 videos are devoted to Vitamin D and visceral fat.
||Lack of sunlight and cheap seed oils could be a vicious cycle.
||//No matter how you change metabolism [...] //
||Doesn't [MaxwellBuchanan]'s ill-advised experiment with
dinitrophenol provide a counterexample to this claim, [a1]?
||See link- the annotations in particular.
||//the intended result (of the DNP experiment) was
pain-free weight loss. To be fair, that bit of it
worked really well.//
||Hard to say as we cant ask him. But even turning
up his metabolism wouldnt have caused weight
loss if he was still taking in enough calories to
cover what he was burning.
||De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
||//But even turning up his metabolism wouldnt have caused
weight loss if he was still taking in enough calories to cover
what he was burning.//
||DNP works very well, Max actually went very hard, up to
500mg/day. That's a big dose and should net you about
1lb/day if you believe the bodybuilders. The trouble is, he
titrated up to that and stayed there for a while. Biology
being what it is, you get a compensation, your body notices
the extra metabolic rate and tries to turn it down by
dropping thyroid output.
||Bodybuilders either cycle it, by increasing the dose day by
day and then cycling off it to avoid the thyroid
compensation or, they add in T4/T3 to artificially keep
||Wait, where's [doctorremulac3]?
||I got my PHD from a place that also details cars,
here's a little trick to learn what's best for a
animal to eat that I use.
||If somebody asks you to be a dietician for Marine
and to design a diet for the dolphins, you can do
two things: learn about the physiology, chemistry,
gastroenterology, biochemistry of the 40 or so
dolphins or just do this. Ask "What did dolphins
eat? Fish?" Ok, that was easy. After extensive
decided we're going to feed dolphins the same
they've been eating for millions of years.
||So what did humans evolve to eat? Well, the stuff
a lot of now is new, heavy in post agricultural
stuff like grains, the seed oils mentioned,
sugars that make things taste better etc. We
evolved much since this new diet began. This diet
us to build civilization, but at a bit of a cost. (that
well worth it at the time) Before the whole
thing, we used to go out and kill things to eat and
stuff we might find along the way. We have cousins
family that moved towards the herbivore end of
omnivore spectrum but we're hunter/killers. That's
dogs are man's best friend, we're in the same
category. We hunt in packs, have a wide scope of
due to frontal eye placement, great for range
prey (as opposed to eyes on either side of our head
better see predators coming like sheep or deer, see
and fangs to puncture the hide of our prey. Yes,
fangs, go look in the mirror.
||To hedge our bets, we have an omnivore digestive
designed to digest just about anything just in case.
that big brains and opposing thumbs and the game
which is the game of eating, is over. We won a long
||But as great as this agricultural revolution was,
calories to the masses the easiest way possible
necessarily the greatest for our still hunter
bodies. I'm not saying just because it's not natural,
bad, central plumbing isn't natural either, but a
heavy in these grain based foods, especially when
with bad fats (seed oil fats are bad, animal fats
and sugar added to already high glycemic index
body isn't super happy. Especially when you get
have to have 3 square meals a day with plenty of
in between by the people who sell square meals
||So here's the deal, and I'll bet my PHD from the
Carlos College Of Science And Auto Detailing on it,
designed to do this:
||1- Get up and go kill stuff, you don't need
because before refrigeration, storage of food
thing anyway. There was no breakfast.
||2- Move while you go kill stuff. This is because the
you're going to kill doesn't want to be killed and
very fast sometimes. And sometimes it can kill
||3- You'll be walking a good part of the day, but
sprint from time to time. You won't be jogging for
hour, that's not what you're designed to do. Walk
and sprint here and there. Jogging just beats up
knees and your prey can outrun you for short
at the end of the day your endurance, brains,
sharp sticks will win the day. Especially with your
buddy the dog coming along helping to track them.
Modern replacement for this? Go for a walk with
and bring a ball to throw to play fetch with. Chase
around, he'll know what's going on. Then come
tell me you're still just as depressed as you were
your afternoon romp. (not applicable for people
serious issues like schizophrenia, although it might
||4- You'll eat when you're hungry, but you won't get
cravings because your ghrelin and leptin, the
that tell you when you're hungry and satiated are
functional. On a high calorie carb diet these alarm
systems are completely out of whack telling you
need to eat a whole bag of donuts.
||5- If you're sitting around all day, and this is me
speculating, the biological controls in your body
you're not a contributing part of the tribe any
want to do what's best for the group, which is kill
it gets all sorts of breakdowns in the various
systems so it
can get you out of the way to make room for a
member that actually hunts and doesn't just sit
eating food it didn't help gather.
||Your body doesn't understand computers, stress,
technology, it gives you stress because you're
your ass and that means you're not contributing.
stress is telling you to go kill dinner. Your body is
stupid, and can be easily fooled by exercise. You
go for a
walk, hit the gym and lift weights your stupid body
"Ug, you chased down much wild animal and
home for tribe! Very heavy it was! Here's good
for your reward."
||So that's your caveman's guide to diet, exercise,
and mental health. Don't know anything about
take them because people say to take them. Doubt
hurt. Unless they do.
||//So that's your caveman's guide to diet//
||Pretty much how I see it although our modern day mammoths (cows) are now fed soy which adds a lot of polyunsaturated fats to meat and dairy.
||Yea, Id carefully review any food industry
technology or practice that might be great at
more, faster, better for profits at the expense of
being good for you. Hormones in meat, chemicals
in the plastic containers, sweeteners, fillers etc.
etc. Doesnt mean all food industry technology is
bad, you just need to review things youre putting
in your body. And theres just as much bad advise
on the subject as good. The totally debunked war
on healthy fats that led to replacement by the
unhealthy fats being discussed here for example.
||//Yea, Id carefully review any food industry technology or practice//
||That reads like a first person conditional statement. As in "Well I would check the labels if I were human and did eat".
||That being said, being careful about reviewing
your food also entails being careful about
reviewing your food reviewers. I've gotten a lot of
bad advice in my life. Drink non-fat milk, (pure
sugar, low nutritional value) Starve yourself to lose
weight, (great way to prepare for gaining the
weight right back because you've told your
metabolism you're in a famine and need to put on
any spare weight you can when food's available)
Load up with "healthy carbs", eat insane garbage
like granola with crazy "healthy sugar substitutes"
like agave nectar or honey etc. etc.
||One of the
worst tricks is products that use the word "Natural"
on the package. You see a candy bar package with
a lovely hippie girl sitting under a tree on a hilltop
with the word nature in the name, you can bet it's
basically slow poison.
||My big disaster for years was starting every day for
with a fruit smoothie. Banana, half a peach,
nonfat milk and protein powder. Healthy eh? Same
sugar content as a Macdonalds milkshake. High
glycemic index garbage liquified to hit your
pancreas like a sledge hammer.
||If you're gonna eat fruit you don't liquify it. It's like
injecting the sugar right into your veins. Picture
having a bag full of ice dropped on your head from
5 feet but one ice cube at a time. Now freeze the
ice into one solid mass and drop the whole thing
on your head from that hight. Insulin from the
pancreas is used to process this stuff, but you hit it
all at once it gets overloaded and can eventually
break. Next thing you know you've got diabetes.
||Had a weight problem at one point in my life but
figuring out how to eat I don't even bother
weighing myself any more. I'm basically the same
weight every day so what's the point? And am I
super disciplined? Not at all, I just learned what to
eat, my body got the idea and we're friends now.
||Scales can be your enemy too but that's for
||One last warning sign: virtuous diets. If somebody
tells you they're eating a particular way to show
that they're better than everybody else, well, the
body doesn't have some weird moral compass. It
just wants to eat what it evolved to eat.
||Why here you are, right where you are meant to be, you
||Just kidding my dear cave lady, caveman's fine.
||//I prefer cave person.//
||I hear that the done thing is to put the person first. So for
example "Person with autism" as opposed to "Autistic
person". I'm not sure how to construct a sentence that isn't
extremely clunky for this. "Person of robust dwelling"?
"Person with naturally-formed housing". "Person with bear-
||Hmm, this is getting pretty complicated. I guess I'm a
binary cisgender caver, or I identify as a binary
cisgender caver, something like that.
||I like Trog. Short for troglodyte.
||I'm going to start a line of paleo snacks called
Troglodelight. Oh.. wait, hold on.... oops, I've lost
interest in that idea. That was quick.
||Or troglodette for the cave ladies.
||Remember: it's trogolodites that hang from the top of the
cave and trogolomites that are found on the floor.
||Oh my god Pert, that link is brilliant. Scary but
||That is good. What was the collie phase? 1700-1970 ish?
My friend was recently in a fell-running race of the order
of 12 miles. At mile 7 the timing screens lit up with a
staggering 3:20 1 mile split, a world record by a big
margin. Turns out an additional GPS tracker was on one of
the runner's border collie. The dog knew it's way, pelted
off down the hill, over 2 stiles and a cattle grid then sat
waiting at the roadside.
||//hit your pancreas like a sledge hammer.//
||You definitely don't want that. In countries where car
crashes & lap belts are common, a frequent injury is
having the pancreas forced against the spine and snapping
into two pieces, they then begin to digest themselves &
||//Insulin from the pancreas is used to process this stuff,
but you hit it all at once it gets overloaded and can
||There aren't many things that biology senses in absolute
terms, glucose, pH/CO2, blood pressure & O2. That's
about it. Everything else is a relative measurement
Na+/K+ ratio, Ca2+/Mg2+ ratio, ATP/ADP ratio etc. ,
||The absolute measuring systems are all sensitive to
breaking, with the possible exception of O2, maybe
because it's been around the longest. What's needed is a
mechanism of recalibration.
||//What was the collie phase?//
||It would be staggered. In some corners of the world, there are
still hunter- gatherers so, technically, still wolves.
||I'd suggest that the important transition from wolf to collie
would have begun with the invention of arable farming (a few
thousand years BC) rather than the automation of it, starting in
the C18th. For example, in encounters between settled peoples
and nomads, even in the ancient world, the settled peoples were
inclined to bring out the "wild beast" similes.
||The transition to yapping wiener seems to have happened quite
rapidly in the mid C20th. For example, Betty Friedan (one of my
favourite feminists) records a change of this kind going on
within one lifetime (though, being serious and scientific, she
doesn't go for the dog- breed metaphor). (Cue my usual
grumbling about the Post-War Consensus).