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Low Seed Oil Diet Obviating Fast Food

Seed oils are dangerous mkay.
 
(+2, -2)
  [vote for,
against]

Apparently this is a very new thing even though the statistics say it was the norm 150 years*** ago. But here we are in the paid for science era we like to call 2021.

I give you a new diet acronym - the L-SODOFF diet. The recommended packaging logo has an extended middle finger alongside the AHA, FDA and CDC logos.

The diet plan is simple - avoid all seed oils that have an intolerably high level of PUFA's (Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids). You can still guzzle sugar and sandwiches, but better not use those seed oil spreads - use butter, or lard* or beef dripping with the tasty brown stuff on top.

And I'm afraid fast food is out unless you specify "I'm allergic to seed oils".

Our diet is fully supported by the latest science**. <waves hand in general direction of some poor quality internet links below/>

* Actually not lard as pigs are fed on soy and their fat in turn contains a high PUFA content.

** Humans also build up a high PUFA content in their fat due to seed oils leading to most western diseases. <waves hand for a second time in general direction of some poor quality internet resources/>

*** First link contains unfortunately accurate history.

bigsleep, May 18 2021

Dr. Chris Knobbe - 'Diseases of Civilization: Are Seed Oil Excesses the Unifying Mechanism?' https://www.youtube...watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM
Way too many papers (see bottom left corner) [bigsleep, May 18 2021]

Dr Cate Shanahan, omega 3 vs omega 6 benefits, Is Saturated Fat Bad For You? https://www.youtube...watch?v=58aGiekcwRA
[bigsleep, May 18 2021]

Why Your Doctor Is Wrong About Statins and Fat by Dr Paul Mason https://www.youtube...watch?v=FRZGgO4MxRU
"Don't confuse eminence with evidence" [bigsleep, May 18 2021]

The Omnivore's Dilemma https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143038583
[a1, May 18 2021, last modified May 19 2021]

5 appetites https://harpercolli...iant=32674578989134
[pocmloc, May 20 2021]

Diets and Heart problems. https://www.science...05/140501165658.htm
[bs0u0155, May 20 2021]

Automobiles and obesity https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15261894/
[a1, May 20 2021]

Obesity and hypovitaminosis D: causality or casualty? https://www.ncbi.nl...rticles/PMC6683181/
"Vitamin D deficiency is a global and increasing health challenge. Serum 25(OH)D is not only a predictor of bone health, but it is also an independent predictor of other chronic diseases. In particular, low levels of 25(OH)D are highly frequent in obesity." [bigsleep, May 21 2021]

Possible counterexample for [a1] DNP_20Husky_20Home_20Heating
... regarding diet, exercise and metabolism [pertinax, May 23 2021]

Binocular vision ain't for everybody https://nymag.com/i...s-at-the-front.html
[doctorremulac3, May 23 2021]

Troglodyte https://www.youtube...watch?v=BCV6paTXyCU
What we gonna do right here is go back ... way back ... [a1, May 24 2021]

a slightly different evolutionary take https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lapdog
for [dr3] [pertinax, May 26 2021]

[link]






       YouTube doctors - this looks legit
hippo, May 18 2021
  

       //YouTube doctors//   

       Hehe. I'm pretty sure they all have careers and are just using video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for books and talks.
bigsleep, May 18 2021
  

       //Our diet is fully supported by the latest science**. <waves hand in general direction of some poor quality internet links below/>//   

       The links aren't that low quality. I haven't watched all of the material but there's no screaming logical jumps. From the outset in the first one however, the claim that heart attacks were uncommon in the past needs qualifying. They certainly were noted in ancient Greece among the population that got to the right sort of age.   

       But, routinely investigating why people drop dead isn't common until the last century. Even when my Dad was young in the 50's, he remembers everyone died of "consumption". Commonly, that's TB, but it was used as a catch all for any failure of the CV system: lung cancer, silicosis, heart attacks, pulmonary embolisms etc.   

       The main driver behind the rise in modern diseases like cancer and heart problems is simply getting to the age when they happen. However, I'm in general agreement that a number of organizations, eg. the AHA jumped right on the "these fats good, those fats bad, I'll take that funding thank you very much" with pretty weak evidence. I'm also on board with mitochondrial dysfunction being at the core of a ton of diseases (look up Doug Wallace, he does a nice job of deconstructing the anatomical logic that pervades a lot of medicine).   

       However, it's a jump to say that the lipid make up of what we eat is a direct cause. Studies in rodents are a huge part of the established knowledge in health research, but they're terrible if convenient models for many things.   

       Take the "high fat diet". You feed mice 30-60% of their calories as fat* and they become obese and diabetic. Lots of conclusions were jumped to following these data. That this can be extrapolated to humans is the most egregious. Mice are a dreadful model for humans in terms of metabolism. They have a very high basal metabolic rate, they have small brains, huge livers and cope poorly with even 12hr food depravations, preferring instead to eat more or less constantly. Contrast that to humans, who for most of our existence, killed a big ungulate every couple of weeks, then sat around with bulging bellies making more spears or whatever. We're much better adapted to storing, then using energy than mice, not at the level of bears, but closer.   

       We have no idea what constitutes an ideal human diet, we're actually a long way of having good experimental evidence for anything more than short term feed>look at the blood. Personally, butter is nearly always the correct choice.   

       *Interestingly, they use lard. A mouse, getting 60% of its calories from saturated fats is MORE likely to be a problem for them, since they're adapted largely to convert plant lipids to the lipids they need for their tissues, this is the other way around.
bs0u0155, May 19 2021
  

       // Mice ... have small brains, huge livers and cope poorly with even 12hr food depravations, preferring instead to eat more or less constantly. //   

       That's sounds like a pretty solid model for a lot of people I know. But in every other aspect, I agree with your outline - human nutrition & metabolism is too complicated for a reductionist approach of saying "Avoid this one thing."   

       Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma" <link> looks into health aspects as well as social and political ones. His dietary advice comes down to seven words...   

       "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."
a1, May 19 2021
  

       [bs0u0155] Thanks for taking the time to review the links.   

       To me as a layman it seems obvious that something happened around the world to trigger a wave of obesity and it wasn't linked to the availability of an abundance of food.   

       //The main driver behind the rise in modern diseases like cancer and heart problems is simply getting to the age when they happen//   

       Doesn't seem right. We see obesity in all ages, including toddlers.   

       //I'm also on board with mitochondrial dysfunction being at the core of a ton of diseases (look up Doug Wallace, he does a nice job of deconstructing the anatomical logic that pervades a lot of medicine). //   

       Will do. Thanks.   

       //Interestingly, they use lard. A mouse, getting 60% of its calories from saturated fats//   

       Pig fat is now unfortunately full of PUFAs due to the feed. I was reading a few livestock articles and it mentioned how you could tell the PUFA content of fat by how soft it was. Remember when bacon had solid fat ?
bigsleep, May 19 2021
  

       // something happened around the world to trigger a wave of obesity and it wasn't linked to the availability of an abundance of food //   

       Abundance of food is only part of it. People getting less exercise is the other part. In many places in the world, it’s only been the past few generations that have had enough to eat and didn’t have to work their asses off to get it.
a1, May 20 2021
  

       //calorie consumption//   

       Yes, but its not a straight forward link. One claim is that mitochondrial dysfunction caused by seed oils is stopping fat from being burned. So more food and sugar is consumed to keep the metabolism going.   

       I would love to see a chart of the introduction of seed oils correlating with obesity for each country. India for example has more than quadrupled its import of sunflower oil in the last 15 years which correlates with its late start in rise of obesity. The US on the other hand had obesity very early on and pioneered chucking cheap oil, originally cottonseed oil, into everything.
bigsleep, May 20 2021
  

       Currently reading David Raubenheimer, Stephen J. Simpson's book (link above). Two entomologists who studied insect feeding behaviour and broadened out to consider all animals including Humans. Their work looks extremely thorough and rigorous but their book is written as a popular overview.
pocmloc, May 20 2021
  

       // …stopping fat from being burned. So more food and sugar is consumed to keep the metabolism going //   

       No matter how you change metabolism - take in more calories than you burn off through exercise, you gain weight. Exercise to burn more than you take in, you lose weight.   

       It’s that simple. Prove me wrong.   

       // I would love to see a chart of the introduction of seed oils correlating with obesity for each country //   

       So would i, along with some other metrics - average per capita calorie consumption, amount of exercise, mapped by country over a period of at least 50 years. Problem is I can find bits and pieces scattered over graphs and studies that used different methodologies, so they’re not easily compared.   

       Would you believe the USA *doesn’t* have the highest obesity rates in the world? Doesn’t even make the top ten on most charts. How much seed oil do you they they use in Nauru or Tonga?
a1, May 20 2021
  

       //Doug Wallace//   

       Almost the same material but without the finger pointing.   

       <points finger at McShakes containing E471/>   

       So that's only 3 things in the last few days that can contribute to mitochondrial dysfunction - Seed oils, Roundup and now some emulsifiers like E471.
bigsleep, May 20 2021
  

       //introduction of seed oils correlating with obesity for each country//   

       If it gave you any kind of positive, it'd have a good chance of it being a false positive. There's SO much going on at the same time, really big shifts affecting huge swathes of the global population. Think of nature of work, at my age my grandparents were either working 12hr shifts in a silk mill or ship yard. I manipulate spreadsheets on my arse for the same period. There used to be the radio or you'd drag yourself to a picture house for a news reel and a film, now: 24hr access to almost anything you want.
bs0u0155, May 20 2021
  

       //Hehe. I'm pretty sure they all have careers and are just using video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for books and talks//   

       You could say the same for 'America's Frontline Doctors' group that was pushing vaccine misinformation earlier.
RayfordSteele, May 20 2021
  

       re "youtube doctors" that "all have careers and are just using video sharing platforms to attract future audiences for books and talks..."   

       That must break up the monotony of actually practicing medicine, doing research, or trying to get work peer reviewed and published someplace other than the tubes.
a1, May 20 2021
  

       I would also point out that there are populations who eat wildly different diets, and studies in Inuit populations reporting low heart attack incidence seem to be wrong <link>. There are enough people, even in the US - e.g. Alaska that live on wild fish/ungulates/birds, that we'd notice if they didn't age significantly.   

       I'd also point out that ageing links mitochondrial dysfunction with a ton of diseases. But ageing isn't an accident, it's a feature not a bug. Yeast age, you can modulate it with what you feed it, but ultimately they all die/senesce.   

       //No matter how you change metabolism - take in more calories than you burn off through exercise, you gain weight. Exercise to burn more than you take in, you lose weight.   

       It’s that simple. Prove me wrong.//   

       This is where animal models demonstrate that composition, rather than calories, can have an effect. Mice (&rats, and a couple of other models I can't remember) fed an isocaloric diet high in fat, become obese and sick. Part (not all) of the solution is that they move less, but moving less is a symptom in mice, it's not a cause here. The only change is the composition of the diet, even the genetics are controlled, lab mice are genetically homogeneous. There are diet-induced changes, UPSTREAM of the movement that cause them to not want to move around so much. I'm not well-informed enough to go further into that, but it does suggest that a similar mechanism might operate in humans.
bs0u0155, May 20 2021
  

       [bs0u0155], you said yourself that mice weren't a good model for human metabolism. I'd have to question if that restricted diet on cloned mice tells us anything useful in connection to the wide range of human diets and habits.   

       But for the sake of argument (xkcd 1432), let's try a hypothesis: Suppose there's something in seed oils (or other stuff people commonly eat) that 1:Packs on the calories, and 2:Makes you unwilling or even unable to do enough exercise to burn them off.   

       - Does that model fit current observations of obesity / diet trends in any human society?   

       - Are there any data that contradicts it?   

       - Can you device a controlled experiment with human volunteers, predict results, test it?
a1, May 20 2021
  

       //weren't a good model for human metabolism. I'd have to question if that restricted diet on cloned mice informs us about anything within human diet and habits.//   

       They are a poor model. We should probably be using pigs. But, the HFD does demonstrate the principle that composition alone can generate obesity etc.   

       //something in seed oils )or other stuff people commonly eat) that 1- Packs on the calories, and 2- Makes you unwilling or even unable to do enough exercise to burn them off.//   

       I suspect it's more about what isn't there. If you MAKE fat, from sugars/alcohol etc. It will not have any essential fatty acids, because we can't make those, which is why they're essential. If you don't burn much fat, because of sedentary lifestyles, or relative oversupply, then what essential fatty acids remain will be progressively diluted in a growing lipid pool. Sadly, the signaling isn't specific. Cells call for fatty acids, they're secreted and circulate with cholesterol. The cells go "hang on, I don't need these, wrong fats" and they're incorporated incorrectly, or go back into circulation.   

       //Does that model fit current observations of obesity / diet trends in any human society?//   

       Maybe, but there's so much else going on. What's going on might just be explained by the switch from bicycles to cars, or farm work to office work, or both, or neither.   

       //Can you device a controlled experiment with human volunteers, predict results, test it?//   

       Yes, but it would be decades long and staggeringly expensive. Humans are terrible subjects for this kind of thing. Some will die from unrelated reasons, some will wander off, some will decide they've had quite enough of Diet B. Most will lie.   

       It took an extremely expensive experiment in primates to demonstrate that caloric restriction doesn't work. It's still not clear if the mechanism that's preserved from yeast to mice doesn't hold, or if being hungry most of the time was a more potent psychological stress.
bs0u0155, May 20 2021
  

       // What's going on might just be explained by the switch from bicycles to cars //   

       MIGHT be explained? I wanted to say that earlier but couldn't find a way to squeeze it into a post that was already too long. The automobile has had a bigger effect on human shapes (and about a gazillion other aspects of human society) than anything else we've discussed here.
a1, May 20 2021
  

       //might just be explained by the switch from bicycles to cars, or farm work to office work, or both, or neither.//   

       This is where an epidemiology study usually steps in and gets things wrong. As a stupid example, there could be good epidemiological proof that the keto diet works, but in reality its just that when omitting bread from the diet there is nothing to use seed oil mayo and spreads on. Unless the study controls for *everything* there is a question mark hanging over the study.   

       So there's people lying to wreck a study, but also that the study can't really tease any meaningful data out of the rare interesting incidences that emerge from even a large scale epidemiological diet study. Hence the recent trend to aggregate previous studies to reach 'new' possibly profitable results. Allegedly.
bigsleep, May 20 2021
  

       Let's get something straight.   

       This is a website for silly inventions. It is not a website for bringing forth every alternative nook and conspiracy cranny that you happen to find and want to discuss with someone. Find a chat site for that.
RayfordSteele, May 21 2021
  

       //So that's only 3 things in the last few day//   

       Make that 4. It seems our old friend Vitamin D is making an appearance [link]. Thomas DeLauers last 2 videos are devoted to Vitamin D and visceral fat.   

       Lack of sunlight and cheap seed oils could be a vicious cycle.
bigsleep, May 21 2021
  

       //No matter how you change metabolism [...] //   

       Doesn't [MaxwellBuchanan]'s ill-advised experiment with dinitrophenol provide a counterexample to this claim, [a1]?   

       See link- the annotations in particular.
pertinax, May 23 2021
  

       //the intended result (of the DNP experiment) was pain-free weight loss. To be fair, that bit of it worked really well.//
—MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 07 2020
  

       Hard to say as we can’t ask him. But even turning up his metabolism wouldn’t have caused weight loss if he was still taking in enough calories to cover what he was burning.   

       De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
a1, May 23 2021
  

       //But even turning up his metabolism wouldn’t have caused weight loss if he was still taking in enough calories to cover what he was burning.//   

       DNP works very well, Max actually went very hard, up to 500mg/day. That's a big dose and should net you about 1lb/day if you believe the bodybuilders. The trouble is, he titrated up to that and stayed there for a while. Biology being what it is, you get a compensation, your body notices the extra metabolic rate and tries to turn it down by dropping thyroid output.   

       Bodybuilders either cycle it, by increasing the dose day by day and then cycling off it to avoid the thyroid compensation or, they add in T4/T3 to artificially keep metabolism up.
bs0u0155, May 23 2021
  

       Wait, where's [doctorremulac3]?
blissmiss, May 23 2021
  

       I got my PHD from a place that also details cars, but here's a little trick to learn what's best for a particular animal to eat that I use.   

       If somebody asks you to be a dietician for Marine World and to design a diet for the dolphins, you can do one of two things: learn about the physiology, chemistry, gastroenterology, biochemistry of the 40 or so species of dolphins or just do this. Ask "What did dolphins evolve to eat? Fish?" Ok, that was easy. After extensive research I've decided we're going to feed dolphins the same thing they've been eating for millions of years.   

       So what did humans evolve to eat? Well, the stuff we eat a lot of now is new, heavy in post agricultural revolution stuff like grains, the seed oils mentioned, concentrated sugars that make things taste better etc. We haven't evolved much since this new diet began. This diet allowed us to build civilization, but at a bit of a cost. (that was well worth it at the time) Before the whole civilization thing, we used to go out and kill things to eat and grab stuff we might find along the way. We have cousins in our family that moved towards the herbivore end of the omnivore spectrum but we're hunter/killers. That's why dogs are man's best friend, we're in the same feeding category. We hunt in packs, have a wide scope of binocular vision due to frontal eye placement, great for range finding our prey (as opposed to eyes on either side of our head to better see predators coming like sheep or deer, see link) and fangs to puncture the hide of our prey. Yes, you have fangs, go look in the mirror.   

       To hedge our bets, we have an omnivore digestive tract designed to digest just about anything just in case. Add to that big brains and opposing thumbs and the game of life, which is the game of eating, is over. We won a long time ago.   

       But as great as this agricultural revolution was, getting calories to the masses the easiest way possible isn't necessarily the greatest for our still hunter gatherer bodies. I'm not saying just because it's not natural, it's bad, central plumbing isn't natural either, but a diet heavy in these grain based foods, especially when loaded with bad fats (seed oil fats are bad, animal fats are good for you) and sugar added to already high glycemic index carbs, the body isn't super happy. Especially when you get told you have to have 3 square meals a day with plenty of snacks in between by the people who sell square meals and snacks.   

       So here's the deal, and I'll bet my PHD from the Juan Carlos College Of Science And Auto Detailing on it, you're designed to do this:   

       1- Get up and go kill stuff, you don't need breakfast, because before refrigeration, storage of food wasn't a thing anyway. There was no breakfast.   

       2- Move while you go kill stuff. This is because the stuff you're going to kill doesn't want to be killed and can move very fast sometimes. And sometimes it can kill back.   

       3- You'll be walking a good part of the day, but you'll sprint from time to time. You won't be jogging for an hour, that's not what you're designed to do. Walk for hours and sprint here and there. Jogging just beats up your knees and your prey can outrun you for short bursts, but at the end of the day your endurance, brains, rocks and sharp sticks will win the day. Especially with your new buddy the dog coming along helping to track them. Modern replacement for this? Go for a walk with your dog and bring a ball to throw to play fetch with. Chase him around, he'll know what's going on. Then come home and tell me you're still just as depressed as you were before your afternoon romp. (not applicable for people with serious issues like schizophrenia, although it might not hurt)   

       4- You'll eat when you're hungry, but you won't get food cravings because your ghrelin and leptin, the hormones that tell you when you're hungry and satiated are functional. On a high calorie carb diet these alarm systems are completely out of whack telling you that you need to eat a whole bag of donuts.   

       5- If you're sitting around all day, and this is me speculating, the biological controls in your body think you're not a contributing part of the tribe any more and want to do what's best for the group, which is kill you. So it gets all sorts of breakdowns in the various systems so it can get you out of the way to make room for a team member that actually hunts and doesn't just sit there eating food it didn't help gather.   

       Your body doesn't understand computers, stress, technology, it gives you stress because you're sitting on your ass and that means you're not contributing. That stress is telling you to go kill dinner. Your body is also stupid, and can be easily fooled by exercise. You go for a walk, hit the gym and lift weights your stupid body says: "Ug, you chased down much wild animal and dragged it home for tribe! Very heavy it was! Here's good chemicals for your reward."   

       So that's your caveman's guide to diet, exercise, physical and mental health. Don't know anything about vitamins. I take them because people say to take them. Doubt they hurt. Unless they do.
doctorremulac3, May 23 2021
  

       //So that's your caveman's guide to diet//   

       Pretty much how I see it although our modern day mammoths (cows) are now fed soy which adds a lot of polyunsaturated fats to meat and dairy.
bigsleep, May 24 2021
  

       Yea, I’d carefully review any food industry technology or practice that might be great at “more, faster, better for profits” at the expense of being good for you. Hormones in meat, chemicals in the plastic containers, sweeteners, fillers etc. etc. Doesn’t mean all food industry technology is bad, you just need to review things you’re putting in your body. And there’s just as much bad advise on the subject as good. The totally debunked war on healthy fats that led to replacement by the unhealthy fats being discussed here for example.
doctorremulac3, May 24 2021
  

       //Yea, I’d carefully review any food industry technology or practice//   

       That reads like a first person conditional statement. As in "Well I would check the labels if I were human and did eat".
bigsleep, May 24 2021
  

       That being said, being careful about reviewing your food also entails being careful about reviewing your food reviewers. I've gotten a lot of bad advice in my life. Drink non-fat milk, (pure sugar, low nutritional value) Starve yourself to lose weight, (great way to prepare for gaining the weight right back because you've told your metabolism you're in a famine and need to put on any spare weight you can when food's available) Load up with "healthy carbs", eat insane garbage like granola with crazy "healthy sugar substitutes" like agave nectar or honey etc. etc.   

       One of the worst tricks is products that use the word "Natural" or "Nature's" on the package. You see a candy bar package with a lovely hippie girl sitting under a tree on a hilltop with the word nature in the name, you can bet it's basically slow poison.   

       My big disaster for years was starting every day for with a fruit smoothie. Banana, half a peach, nonfat milk and protein powder. Healthy eh? Same sugar content as a Macdonalds milkshake. High glycemic index garbage liquified to hit your pancreas like a sledge hammer.   

       If you're gonna eat fruit you don't liquify it. It's like injecting the sugar right into your veins. Picture having a bag full of ice dropped on your head from 5 feet but one ice cube at a time. Now freeze the ice into one solid mass and drop the whole thing on your head from that hight. Insulin from the pancreas is used to process this stuff, but you hit it all at once it gets overloaded and can eventually break. Next thing you know you've got diabetes.   

       Had a weight problem at one point in my life but figuring out how to eat I don't even bother weighing myself any more. I'm basically the same weight every day so what's the point? And am I super disciplined? Not at all, I just learned what to eat, my body got the idea and we're friends now.   

       Scales can be your enemy too but that's for another day.   

       One last warning sign: virtuous diets. If somebody tells you they're eating a particular way to show that they're better than everybody else, well, the body doesn't have some weird moral compass. It just wants to eat what it evolved to eat.
doctorremulac3, May 24 2021
  

       Why here you are, right where you are meant to be, you caveman, you.
blissmiss, May 24 2021
  

       I prefer cave person.   

       Just kidding my dear cave lady, caveman's fine.
doctorremulac3, May 24 2021
  

       //I prefer cave person.//   

       I hear that the done thing is to put the person first. So for example "Person with autism" as opposed to "Autistic person". I'm not sure how to construct a sentence that isn't extremely clunky for this. "Person of robust dwelling"? "Person with naturally-formed housing". "Person with bear- evicting tendencies?"
bs0u0155, May 24 2021
  

       Troglodite
pocmloc, May 24 2021
  

       Hmm, this is getting pretty complicated. I guess I'm a binary cisgender caver, or I identify as a binary cisgender caver, something like that.   

       I like Trog. Short for troglodyte.   

       I'm going to start a line of paleo snacks called Troglodelight. Oh.. wait, hold on.... oops, I've lost interest in that idea. That was quick.
doctorremulac3, May 24 2021
  

       Or troglodette for the cave ladies.
a1, May 24 2021
  

       Remember: it's trogolodites that hang from the top of the cave and trogolomites that are found on the floor.
bs0u0155, May 24 2021
  

       Oh my god Pert, that link is brilliant. Scary but brilliant.
doctorremulac3, May 26 2021
  

       You're welcome. :-)
pertinax, May 26 2021
  

       Pert.   

       That is good. What was the collie phase? 1700-1970 ish? My friend was recently in a fell-running race of the order of 12 miles. At mile 7 the timing screens lit up with a staggering 3:20 1 mile split, a world record by a big margin. Turns out an additional GPS tracker was on one of the runner's border collie. The dog knew it's way, pelted off down the hill, over 2 stiles and a cattle grid then sat waiting at the roadside.   

       //hit your pancreas like a sledge hammer.//   

       You definitely don't want that. In countries where car crashes & lap belts are common, a frequent injury is having the pancreas forced against the spine and snapping into two pieces, they then begin to digest themselves & adjacent peritoneum.   

       //Insulin from the pancreas is used to process this stuff, but you hit it all at once it gets overloaded and can eventually break//   

       There aren't many things that biology senses in absolute terms, glucose, pH/CO2, blood pressure & O2. That's about it. Everything else is a relative measurement Na+/K+ ratio, Ca2+/Mg2+ ratio, ATP/ADP ratio etc. ,   

       The absolute measuring systems are all sensitive to breaking, with the possible exception of O2, maybe because it's been around the longest. What's needed is a mechanism of recalibration.
bs0u0155, May 26 2021
  

       //What was the collie phase?//   

       It would be staggered. In some corners of the world, there are still hunter- gatherers so, technically, still wolves.   

       I'd suggest that the important transition from wolf to collie would have begun with the invention of arable farming (a few thousand years BC) rather than the automation of it, starting in the C18th. For example, in encounters between settled peoples and nomads, even in the ancient world, the settled peoples were inclined to bring out the "wild beast" similes.   

       The transition to yapping wiener seems to have happened quite rapidly in the mid C20th. For example, Betty Friedan (one of my favourite feminists) records a change of this kind going on within one lifetime (though, being serious and scientific, she doesn't go for the dog- breed metaphor). (Cue my usual grumbling about the Post-War Consensus).
pertinax, May 26 2021
  
      
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