Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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M, m, m, my Carona.

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On one hand a lawn ornament shaped like the Covid virus to water one's lawn, perhaps virulently.

On the other hand an excuse to continue discussions deleted because they did not have an idea associated with them.

I can't decide which so...


UK Gestapo https://www.youtube...watch?v=9D6RG4n5ocg
All for a disease little worse than the flu [bigsleep, Apr 14 2021]

Halfbakery idea "Blatantly Apolitical Predictions for 2021" Blatantly_20Apoliti...ctions_20for_202021
I think me & 8th covered this ground already. It didn't take long. (scroll down to anno). [DrBob, Apr 14 2021]

This https://c.shld.net/...ei=64&wid=64&qlt=50
Coronavirus hose lawn ornament [wjt, Apr 17 2021]

or this?? wtf funny but not https://www.google....AB&biw=1261&bih=902
[xandram, Apr 18 2021]

windows on a chip https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/vaccine
[pertinax, Apr 19 2021]

Waterslides are open here too. https://xkcd.com/1081/
[AusCan531, Apr 20 2021]

Pub landlord kicks idiot politician out of pub https://www.youtube...watch?v=oGuLJvY9ApE
[bigsleep, Apr 20 2021]

Conspiracy Theorists https://xkcd.com/258/
[AusCan531, Apr 20 2021]

Bill and Melinda Gates give 1 billion to MHRA https://www.gov.uk/...health-organisation
If they weren't lining the pockets of the key organisations we are trying to trust right now. [bigsleep, Apr 20 2021]

Dr Fauci's Conspiracy https://imgur.com/cw27Y5V
[AusCan531, Apr 20 2021]

I've done my own research! https://imgur.com/L3amprJ
[AusCan531, Apr 20 2021]

Real Conspiracy N#1 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56667960
[zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

Real Conspiracy N#2 https://www.indepen...donor-b1818645.html
[zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

Real Conspiracy N#3 https://www.theguar...r-run-ferry-service
[zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

Real Conspiracy N#s4, 5, ... n https://www.theguar...-in-covid-19-crisis
1 billion in untendered contracts [zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

Real Conspiracy list goes on... https://www.theguar...-hacker-house-grant
[zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

...and on... https://www.opendem...sed-tribunal-rules/
[zen_tom, Apr 20 2021]

Waffle about embedded ID's and vaccine passports https://blogs.times...microchip-implants/
Obviously a very silly idea [bigsleep, Apr 20 2021]

Ted Nugent WAKES UP https://www.thedail...ke?via=twitter_page
Although his ever-present insanity persists [AusCan531, Apr 20 2021]

fullfact on deaths after vaccination https://fullfact.or...hs-after-a-vaccine/
Why you can’t compare deaths after a positive Covid-19 test with deaths after a vaccine [Loris, Apr 20 2021]

British Columbia Covid Dashboard https://experience....bfa989e3cda29297ded
All a misdirection plot by the Lizard People of course. [AusCan531, Apr 21 2021]

The Real Cost of Covid https://www.bbc.com...in-america-56696907
...but, the economy. [AusCan531, Apr 21 2021]

(?) Norwegian Covid Denier no longer holds that opinion https://www.newshub...-house-parties.html
or anything else. [AusCan531, Apr 21 2021]

Newsweek Article https://www.newswee...ck-966-died-1574447
"it is false to say that COVID vaccines have caused 966 deaths, because the VAERS database is not designed to give this information." [AusCan531, Apr 21 2021]

Herd Immunity is a valid goal https://www.vanityf...ccine-herd-immunity
Unfortunately, the burden won't be shared and shirkers will shirk. [AusCan531, Apr 22 2021]

LOTs of people question the validity of Covid https://www.reddit....ium=web2x&context=3
[AusCan531, Apr 22 2021]

How AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 Vaccine Is Linked to Blood Clots https://time.com/59...lood-clots-studies/
[bigsleep, Apr 24 2021]

"Just a cold." https://m.huffpost....537e4b0ee126f670cca
[RayfordSteele, Apr 24 2021]

Fauci interview https://www.busines...y-until-2022-2020-9
[a1, Apr 24 2021]

The tragedy is .. https://books.googl...ription&redir_esc=y
... That even when all the facts are correct, bias is still inevitable. The only mitigation is to keep the conversation going, to keep adding those missing facts which you think are important. [pertinax, Apr 25 2021]

Believe Dr. Fauci https://www.youtube...watch?v=ZPgVf9F44HU
[bigsleep, Apr 26 2021]

70-90% of Indians including 84% pregnant women and 88% Mumbaikars are Vitamin D deficient https://www.indiato...-1593102-2019-08-29
"Our study also investigated co-occurrence of deficiency with hypothyroidism and obesity or overweight condition. A majority (76 percent) of hypothyroid patients had low levels of vitamin D," [bigsleep, Apr 26 2021]

Covid-19: Do many people have pre-existing immunity? https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563
"At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus" [bigsleep, Apr 26 2021]

First Nurse in BC dies of Covid https://bc.ctvnews....ed-in-b-c-1.5403475
Not everyone can be vaccinated so rely upon their community to step up. [AusCan531, Apr 27 2021]

Report on Covid in Delhi https://www.afr.com...AEST&jobid=29303937
From the original NYT article. [AusCan531, Apr 28 2021]

India Daily deaths https://www.worldom...#graph-deaths-daily
[bigsleep, Apr 28 2021]

Air India flight to Hong Kong https://amp.news.co...fca89fbd95b87d756d2
[AusCan531, Apr 28 2021]

Viral shedding https://en.wikipedi...wiki/Viral_shedding
Doesn't mean what bigsleep thinks [Loris, Apr 28 2021]

Why I HAVEN'T yet taken the COVID VACCINE https://www.youtube...watch?v=gAumCeqiU_8
Religious cardiologist talks about immune system etc [bigsleep, Apr 28 2021]

Dr John Lee; Covid is the cure worse than the disease? https://www.youtube...watch?v=spmPax0rq5A
Youtube link [bigsleep, May 05 2021]

Dr John Lee; Covid is the cure worse than the disease? https://www.bitchut.../video/btWfAXQ8wYg/
Bitchute link [bigsleep, May 05 2021]

The Experiment that Proved Airborne Disease Transmission https://www.jhsph.e...e-transmission.html
[a1, May 06 2021]

Ten scientific reasons in support of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 https://www.thelanc...21)00869-2/fulltext
The Lancet [a1, May 06 2021]

Cancer and the gut microbiota: An unexpected link https://www.ncbi.nl...rticles/PMC4690201/
[bigsleep, May 06 2021]

What I've Learned https://www.youtube...hGiB9tkShZorfgcL2lA
Thought provoking channel with plausible evidence. [bigsleep, May 06 2021]

Impact of two oral doses of 100,000 IU of vitamin D3 in preschoolers with viral-induced asthma https://trialsjourn...6/s13063-019-3184-z
[bigsleep, May 07 2021]

[link]






       What I think is going on here is, [jutta] doesn't want to host endless covid debates here, and that's why they're getting deleted.   

       Now, I think that there are some interesting things touched on in those debates - but that doesn't mean [jutta] has to host them, if she doesn't want to. So, [with-respect-suggested-for- deletion].
pertinax, Apr 14 2021
  

       Yeah. The HB isn't the place for it. But unfortunately what's going on could define society forever.   

       We could have had an honest conversation about terrorism, bioterroism, population control, climate change, social credits, but instead the measures are coming in through the back door. [link]
bigsleep, Apr 14 2021
  

       I choose to read this idea as "a lawn ornament and sprayer shaped like the coronavirus in order to foster discussion between neighbors".
Voice, Apr 14 2021
  

       That's the spirit...   

       If the lawn ornament is over powered, and went running around the garden, you might catch it.
pocmloc, Apr 15 2021
  

       I have had enough of this common cold.   

       I'm hoping that the whole fiasco massively backfires and that countries realize just how self sufficient they really are, and how un-reliant we need be on certain other countries, (which shall remain un-named so as to stave off deletion).   

       [Make Plywood Cheap Again]   

       //that countries realize just how self sufficient they really are//   

       Trade has been going on quietly, the UK cannot support itself.   

       But everyone believing nobody should travel is exactly what they want you to think. No holidays and no driving around your own country for things like haircuts and meals. You're totally playing into their narrative. No freedom of movement. Windows forcibly installed on every device. The eventual blue-screening of civilization. We're all doomed ! Doomed!
bigsleep, Apr 18 2021
  

       Just another two weeks...   

       Meh, on a completely unrelated note, I went to a football game with 54,000+ other people on the weekend. No restrictions or masks whatsoever. It was nice.
AusCan531, Apr 19 2021
  

       //Windows forcibly installed on every device.//   

       Wait; that was the 1990s: it's much less of a threat now, what with the revival of Apple, the emergence of Android, etc.
pertinax, Apr 19 2021
  

       It doesn't sound that bad until you know that "windows" is actually "windows on a chip" and by "device" they mean "person", and by "forcibly installed" they mean "forcibly injected". I'm sure it won't be that bad when you get used to your vision being cluttered by useless apps.
bigsleep, Apr 19 2021
  

       See link.
pertinax, Apr 19 2021
  

       //Windows forcibly installed on every device// - I assume for Macs this will be done in a Boot Camp partition so that the user can dual boot? This could be quite useful.
hippo, Apr 19 2021
  

       // for Macs this will be done in a Boot Camp partition so that the user can dual boot? // act fast and get your Intel-based Macs while you can. M1 chips don't and probably won't ever support Bootcamp. Windows on ARM, running under Parallels Desktop might give you your fix, but it won't be seamless.
a1, Apr 19 2021
  

       It's an away game for the football this weekend so I might go to a waterslide instead. [link]
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       //I might go to a waterslide//   

       Do go and enjoy, it might be the last for a while. This corona virus will not be beaten worldwide its just going to circulate seasonally with new variants just like flu. This means perpetual lockdowns, lots of jabs per year or calling the powers that be out on their bullshit - the measures are not warranted.   

       So bear that in mind. Covid19 and flu's will keep circulating the world and your choices are -   

       1) Take the vaccines (even though they don't stop the spread).
2) Take the lockdowns which will flare up when there's a new variant breakout or some or other excuse.
3) Reject the bullshit and all those pulling strings to push it.
  

       Holly: "Wake up! You're all hallucinating!"
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       All I know is that the east end of Canada is getting shut down and the west end is about to follow suit even though nothing seems to have changed here other than ever growing restrictions on our rights.   

       It's just so frustrating being right all the time.
Y'know?
  

       [2 fries] I saw the Ontario video. Looks like Ontario didn't let it spread early enough to get some herd immunity, or are they just testing corpses to find covid dna fragments. Any old excuse.   

       Publican has his facts ready for the leader of the opposition [link].
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Take the lockdowns which will flare up when there's a new variant breakout//   

       At least there won't be an Australian or New Zealand variant. We took care of business like rational adults :)
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       I watched that same pub landlord video this morning, [bigsleep]. My first thought was, "That's not a landlord, that looks more like an angry choreographer. Clearly, *they* have faked this encounter, but their Al Murray lookalike called in sick that day."
pertinax, Apr 20 2021
  

       //At least there won't be an Australian or New Zealand variant.//   

       So how do you stop a Congo variant in a few months time ? Keep Australia isolated from the world ? Check your options 1),2),3) above.   

       //that looks more like an angry choreographer//   

       His statistics are accurate. You might check some before judging people on stereotypes.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       What about variant secondies?
They know about those don't they?
  

       [2 fries] Those believing the narrative are going to have to take newer vaccines for secondary variants. The best way to get long term protection is just to be exposed to any variant which gives a lot of cross immunity between variants.   

       Vaccine reaction -> Defence against virus with specific spike protein   

       Immune system reaction -> Defence against all virus parts including those in common with variants   

       Can't beat a natural immune system response with a narrow vaccine response. If a disease doesn't warrant a heavy handed use of vaccines they shouldn't be used. Doctors do not recommend giving flu vaccines to kids.   

       And as I've said before, the moment they start rolling out the vaccines to kids, children will be dying in far greater numbers than from covid. ***they do not give flu vaccine to kids for that reason***   

       Wake up.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was kidding, [bigs].   

       Meanwhile, we had a whole other thread about the statistics. They were unconvincing, because they all depended on assumptions about what would have happened if [some other policy option] (and other, more detailed reasons, which I won't go over here).   

       I actually agree with you that there's a bad trend, internationally, towards over-reach in governmental power. There's been an increase in surveillance. There have been infringements on the capacity of journalists to investigate and report abuses. There have been infringements on rights to protest. Those things are all real and have been happening, gradually, at least since 9/11, if not earlier.   

       I just don't think repeating "coronavirus is a con" will help with any of that. This is because the problem is not that the external threats (disease, terrorism, etc.) are imaginary - they're not - rather, it is that the opportunistic responses to real threats have tended to ratchet up government power.
pertinax, Apr 20 2021
  

       //because they all depended on assumptions//   

       The death rate was known in February 2020, that was all that was needed to avoid trashing the economy. The pub landlord was right. Prove me wrong. And I need you to prove me and many others wrong. Dig deep here and I'll believe you, but I bet you can't do it.   

       //opportunistic responses//   

       Any conspiracy / bubbling theories there ? I don't believe its because power loves more power. Something is up, and I think its that rich people have run out of strings to pull to make themselves richer.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Prove me wrong//   

       It's logically impossible to disprove assumptions about counterfactual situations, where those situations are too complex to confine to a lab (that is, you can't run controlled experiments on chunks of history). However, it's equally impossible to prove those assumptions. So we're left with relative plausibility.
pertinax, Apr 20 2021
  

       If people want to start again and question the whole false narrative there are 2 quantities you need to verify in your own countries -   

       1) The ages of death from Covid vs the ages of death from natural (other) causes.
2) Per capita deaths every year. A graph showing pre-covid projections would be good.
  

       Based on US and UK statistics I can say that 1) is no different to old age or other causes. 2) is not statistically significant from a bad flu season. Covid19 has the same demographics as flu and it is part of killing roughly the same number of old people from respiratory problems.   

       So why the hell are we all being locked up and movement restricted ?   

       Wake the fuck up already !
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       //However, it's equally impossible to prove those assumptions. So we're left with relative plausibility.//   

       So we can't be sure someone kneeling on someones neck is not doing something negative because it can't be proven 100% it killed him ?   

       So we just default to the prevailing power structure and media narrative ? In anybody's world, clearly policing should not be so fatally confrontational. Neither should government be so much in the pocket of drug companies despite prevailing truth [link].   

       //So we're left with relative plausibility.//   

       And the truth dies in darkness because people were afraid to look and see they have been lied to.   

       Hint: All those businesses have gone bust and people have lost their jobs because 10% more old people died in 2020 and mainly because of lax care home protocol.   

       You are all being lied to. Wake up !
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       [2 fries] Well you sure got your money's worth out of me.   

       Again, its sad to see that many HBer's cannot equate the current infringement of human rights with the 2020 death toll. An old person not being allowed to take a rest on a park bench, a single mother not being given a break to get her kids out of the flat more than rich people with a garden.   

       I am stunned by the lack of critical thinking here.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       One last point. Decide for yourself which would have been the more useful narrative -   

       1) This could be a hard flu and virus season so please check with your doctor.   

       2) You're all going to die unless you stay at home, give up your job, your freedoms, your grandkids freedoms, any travel freedom in future, give your soul to the government and drug companies ... and whatever else those in power can milk until you have finally had enough.   

       Somewhere *you* got lost between 1) and 2).
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       3) It'll cause trouble at lambing time too, no doubt. Mark my words.   

       (And do *things* to the cow's milk, by cracky.)
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       It's fine [Aus]. Make fun if you like. Don't think about yourself, but of those in Ontario or the UK. Australia will not escape those kind of measures eventually. The only escape is herd immunity through vaccine shots or natural infection derived immunity. Covid 19 will not vanish magically because NZ or AUS had a major lockdown; its just out there waiting, and its variants in months or years to come.   

       Amazing you cannot see that.   

       There is only one viable protocol for Covid19 and that's to offer the vaccine to those who want it and let the rest get the disease, because its going to spread anyway ... eventually.   

       The alternative is punitive measures possibly involving compulsory vaccination of those who are more at risk of the vaccine than from the disease. And if you buy into that that they also want you to carry a health passport.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Australia will not escape those kind of measures eventually.//   

       Australia DID NOT escape 'those kinds of measures'. Our success didn't 'just happen'. We had more stringent measures than Canada (I know because I talk to family and friends in Canada daily) and we had a higher level of public compliance where we ignored the naysayers, foot-draggers and conspiracy aficionados. We paid the price and got the reward. Yet we will STILL be at risk from those who dragged the chain. You're right about variants breeding up in the giant petri dishes of countries who didn't do what it takes. There won't be an Australian variant but the dangerous mutations will come from countries like yours. There won't be a Singaporean or Japanese variant either.   

       I have plenty of friends and family in Canada and my wife's family is all in the UK. I do think about them a lot. That's why I'm pissed off with all the "it's just the flu" and "it's a govt conspiracy to oppress us to wear masks" types [link]. These people are dangerous to themselves and others. This isn't a discussion about the merits of Brexit or National Debt or which flavour of religion is 'the correct one'. It's much more important than that. It's life and death. Go hard, go thorough and put the flames out entirely. Doing a half-assed job and leaving a few embers smouldering here and there just prolongs the problem. Even if you're tired and cranky about all the fire-fighting efort and the kids are whining that they want to go back into the house.   

       I would deal with foot-draggers and skeptics the same as a parent deals with a toddler having a tantrum about being buckled into a car seat. I would NOT punch them in the guts but nor would I put up with their shit. If it was just themselves being affected, I might be content to let Darwin sort'em out if rational argument failed. But it's not just them. The longer it takes to sort the problem the more people die and the longer lockdowns and other mitigation measures are in place and more variants arise. The goal should be to keep as many people alive as possible until there's a large enough percentage of the population vaccinated to make a difference. I'm VERY happy my state has had 10 deaths instead of 4,500. Those 4,490 people are still alive and can take advantage of the fact that all lockdown measures are gone and everything has completely opened up. We went hard, we went early and got the reward.
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       //the merits of Brexit// since you mention it, there's been a far deal greater and more permanent loss of freedoms brought about in the name of Brexit - and people voted for that! In comparison any of these temporary Corona measures are miniscule. Why not get all worked up about that? I don't see the crazy brigade complaining about any of those factual losses of personal freedom. It strikes me as slightly hypocritical - even cult-like - that the same anti-vaccination people are also often the QAnon/Brexit/conspiracy theory folks - it's almost as though all those narratives are coming from the same source - irrespective, they're all equally nonsense.   

       Also, just for the record, is anyone serious about microchips in vaccines? That's just satire, right? I mean nobody is seriously suggesting they put microchips in vaccines. You have to ask, given all the other batshit stuff they spread around the internet.   

       Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Lockdowns in 2020 were designed to stop hospitals from getting overrun by runaway infection rates. 1% of 65 million is a lot of people needing care. Far more than would be manageable without absolute carnage. Now we're a year in, and vaccinations are rolling out (I just had my second jab today) then Covid will become just another flu-like disease that will continue to kill many thousands of people a year. Flu kills. The systematic problem wasn't that, it was that the rate of infection in a completely unprepared population would have been such that hospitals wouldn't have been able to deal with the spike in cases. No conspiracy, just reasoned public resource management based on facts and projections.   

       We've had flu vaccines for decades, we eradicated polio with a vaccine, and smallpox and controlled mumps, measles and rubella and all the rest. Vaccines work. They're not used to control people, never have, and there's no mechanism by which they could be in the future. It's just not that big a deal. *   

       What is a big deal is how all this misinformation has infected people and made them do stupid things, like that idiot pub landlord who doesn't know how government works. It's almost as though his ability to think critically had been eroded by all this online nonsense. He must be feeling pretty embarrassed by now.   

       * What *is* a big deal, isn't wankers throwing the wrong people out of pubs, it's how the govt has handed out public funds to their mates for the supply of imaginary goods and services. The corruption utterly stinks, and all this conspiracy theorising gets in the way of any serious conversation being had over actual real problems and failures of government.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Brexit - and people voted for that! In comparison any of these temporary Corona measures are miniscule.//   

       10% on the price of Brie vs locked in your home for a year.   

       //We've had flu vaccines for decades//   

       And we don't give them to kids, and they're only 50% effective.   

       //microchips in vaccines? That's just satire, right?//   

       Yes. It's just as crazy as the real measures used now.   

       //Flu kills.//   

       So did you get your head around how the Grim Reaper actually works ? He kills waves up of people every year, some bigger waves, some smaller waves.   

       //They're not used to control people, never have, and there's no mechanism by which they could be in the future.//   

       But you can't go on holiday without one.   

       I really don't know which world you are looking at, but it seems most people are in denial and deep into Stockholm syndrome. BrExit has curtailed freedoms more than being locked up for a year ? Really ?
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       [bigs] - you can no longer live across the border (even if you own property there) without first getting permission (you could before), you can no longer move across the border freely without permission, you can no longer trade across the border without permission. All those freedoms were freely given up by people by choice. Those freedoms to make choices about where to live and trade across a pool of member states have been revoked permanently.   

       vs a temporary slowdown of the economy for a few months and some encouragement to wear facemasks.   

       It's no competition, wake up!!   

       As for vaccines for kids, maybe not flu, but plenty of others - what's wrong with vaccines? If it was ok for wiping out polio and smallpox, and could be used to safely immunise a majority of people to safe aggregate levels, such that corona occupies the same kind of status as flu, again, no big deal. I truthfully don't understand what the supposed end-game is here. In another year, pretty much everything will be back to normal. Meanwhile, fisheries in Cornwall will still have lost their family businesses, manufacturing jobs will still be sent overseas and people will no longer be able to easily trade across borders without first paying for government permissions.   

       If you want to argue for freedoms, stop tilting at fake Corona windmills and maybe start looking at the real and active assault on your rights that's already happened. To do anything less would be starkly hypocritical.   

       I am becalmed by the no microchips in vaccines thing - it's difficult to separate what people are really getting upset about from the made up stuff- they all make about the same amount of sense.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       I know at least 8 people who went on foreign holidays this year, so the no holiday thing is yet to be enacted. Flights have continued pretty much non-stop all year round. So if they're planning to put the kibosh on foreign travel, they've not got around to telling anyone yet. Meanwhile, post Brexit, wait and see how many UK airlines go out of business or how many regional routes are closed down as increased bureaucracy costs make them uneconomical.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       //So did you get your head around how the Grim Reaper actually works ? He kills waves up of people every year, some bigger waves, some smaller waves.// Yes. And?   

       We've already established that the controls were to stop the initial wave from working through an un- prepared (i.e. susceptible, corona-naïve in antibody terms) population. That situation will have come to an end sometime this summer. Controls most likely over forever after that. It's a one time event. It was never about stopping individuals from dying at all. It was about stopping lots of individuals dying at once, filling up hospitals.   

       It's like a processing system. The throughput of the system is only able to cope with x number of ill people at once, if the number goes over x then people start dying in corridors and piled up in car parks. That's never a good look for a government or hospital admins. The lockdowns were there to spread things out to more manageable rates. And now, with y% of the population immunised (either through exposure, or vaccination or both), those danger rates are never going to be seen again. If an entirely new virus comes out that the population is unexposed to, then maybe it'll all happen again, but based on evidence, that seems to happen once every 100 years or so.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       //you can no longer move across the border freely without permission//   

       You still had to have the local paperwork, but admittedly in the EU some of that paperwork was guaranteed. You can still apply for appropriate visas in *any* country. Ok, its slightly worse but I don't equate it with being locked indoors especially when you're a single parent with 2 screaming kids and no garden.   

       //It was about stopping lots of individuals dying at once, filling up hospitals.//   

       Keep watching the BBC and reading the mainstream newspapers. Did you see that CNN got exposed recently ? It's just as Jon Stewart said.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       Well prove me wrong? It all is based on simple reasoning and common sense. Why resort to crazy conspiracy theories?   

       But seriously - if you care about freedoms, then don't blind yourself to the loss of rights and freedoms given up by all British people through Brexit. As I said before, if you really *do* care about freedom - then don't be a hypocrite - we suffered a far greater and more permanent loss of freedom due to that than any temporary health management policy enacted in the last 12 months.   

       That's got nothing to do with the BBC, CNN or any other news source. That's just plain old straight-forward common sense, based on the principle of Occam's razor and all that jazz.   

       Corona sensationalism is kind of fun, but it'll all be over by Christmas. Other things however, which are real, will still be dragging on.   

       Meanwhile, hysteria sells clicks. One thing that (I guess) the BBC doesn't yet have to worry about. Not sure about CNN, but I don't live over there, so I don't really know.   

       If I wanted to make money by generating clicks and didn't mind the ethical implications, I'd be free to generate all sorts of exciting content for people to obsess over and curate into their own warped world-views. I'm not in that game, but we know that many people out there are into precisely that game. How do we discourage this kind of fake "news"? I don't know the answer to that question, but it's one reason I deleted Facebook for example - it's full of nonsense and garbage - and people get stoked up by it and consumed by weird and crazy ideas as a result.   

       Maybe ghosts are real, who can prove it one way or the other? And maybe there is a secret government conspiracy to do something or other (it's not clear what the intended thing actually is) and this conspiracy is both amazingly effective, and simultaneously hopelessly flawed. As a coherent narrative, it doesn't work. There's nothing holding it together. But if you can fling up enough disconnected weird goings on it is possible to shield the recipient from that fact with sheer volume of information.   

       The facts of the matter are, yes -it's been a tough year. And yes, it's affected people disproportionately who have been less wealthy. But it will all be over fairly soon, and the click-baiters will have to come up with another new bogeyman to make shit up about for people to click on.   

       If I don't reply any time soon, it's because I've got to go out and pick the kids up from school. My wife's picking up a new car from the garage so I have to walk and I've got to pick up some stuff from the shops on the way. As you walk down the street teeming with people going about their everyday business, you can almost imagine their rights under lockdown aren't really that adversely affected at all.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       While you're out [zen-tom] you may as well visit a waterslide like I suggested. It's more fun and just as fruitful.
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       So I was tempted to ignore this, but...   

       //Doctors do not recommend giving flu vaccines to kids.//   

       Are you sure? Because in the UK it's offered every year from 2..10 years old.   

       //Prove me wrong//   

       a) It's not really supposed to work like that. You're supposed to prove yourself right.
b)I don't think it's worth it any more. With enormous effort you may be persuaded of any individual point, but you'll just go off and pick other fallacies to replace it. You're a lost cause.
Loris, Apr 20 2021
  

       [a1] // get your Intel-based Macs while you can. M1 chips don't and probably won't ever support Bootcamp// - that's a good point; I hadn't thought of that.
hippo, Apr 20 2021
  

       The Flying Spaghetti Monster lives on Mars and has accomplices at NASA working to shield his existence. Prove me wrong.   

       Exercise your grips on reality, bigs and 2f. It seems weak. I recommend doing something that involves group participation with your fellow humans. They won't bite. I promise.   

       My 6 and 7 year olds got flu vaccines in 2019 at the local pharmacy. They have vaccines for babies as young as 6 months.   

       I'm at a loss at how microchips are supposed to function inside a vaccine, and what precisely they are supposed to do. Do they have their own incredibly small superbatteries that run them your whole life? Do they get in your bloodstream? Are they supposed to broadcast something on the power generated by these incredibly small superbatteries? On what frequency? Do they sample your DNA and report it out? Using what chemical analysis method? Do they magically replace your DNA with some other proteins? Again, how? How does a chip mechanically or chemically or magically create a protein in a wet environment? If this technique is so incredible to change my DNA in hundreds of millions of cells without my detection by a few dozen or so chips smaller than what can be detected inside a needle shot, why isn't it being used in Oxford or another DNA research lab as a seriously superior technique rather than the expensive, crude, and awkward CRISPR methods currently touted? And why aren't the people who invented it working on other things like instantly curing trisomy 21 and cystic fibrosis?   

       Let's ask someone who spouts this who seems reliable...   

       ...searching...   

       ...still searching...   

       Ooh, we found Kanye West. hmmm... pass. Still searching...
RayfordSteele, Apr 20 2021
  

       //There is only one viable protocol for Covid19 and that's to offer the vaccine to those who want it and let the rest get the disease, because its going to spread anyway ... eventually.//   

       If this is true - and I tend to believe it is - then sorry, but what's the controversy about? Broadly speaking, this is precisely what is going to happen. And when it does, that spread will be manageable because of the steps taken to prepare the population to date. If those steps hadn't been taken, you'd have seen worse results than we already have seen, thank goodness. A colleague of mine, his brother and mother and father in law all went into hospital with Covid back in November. Only he came out alive. His life will have been changed irrevocably. But most of us have been far luckier. Systemically, lockdowns did protect stretched services from being overwhelmed. Now much of that danger is gone (or likely to be going soon, pending extensions caused by variants being spawned in less controlled environments) and controls are being lightened up. They worked, and did their jobs, and now they're being loosened.   

       [AusCan] no waterslides unfortunately, but the kids have been enjoying their Monday swimming lessons here in the UK for the last few weeks. They got their 5m and 10m badges this week, so they're doing quite well. And the other mums and dads at the school gates today seem to be doing reasonably well, and today there were lots of new puppies I'd not seen before, which is another unexpected consequence of 2020. That's not BBC or CNN bias. That's just this afternoon, outside.
zen_tom, Apr 20 2021
  

       // I don't think it's worth it any more // [loris], was it ever worth it? Have you ever convinced a conspiracy believer that they are wrong? At best you might plant an alternate conspiracy theory in their heads.   

       ...hmmm...   

       Maybe China, Russia, or some other bad actors want people to believe covid IS a hoax, and to promote vaccine- reluctance specifically to HELP the spread of the virus, fill hospitals and morgues, prop up their own political ambitions... that's crazy enough that it could be true, doncha know!
a1, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Prove me wrong//   

       I'm referring to the businesses closed, jobs lost, economy smashed and people imprisoned for months - all because 10% extra of old people died in 2020 and *alone*. We don't know the full price of economic damage or missed cancer treatments yet. I predict politicians are going to go to jail.   

       //I'm at a loss at how microchips are supposed to function inside a vaccine//   

       People like to spin that up, but sub-dermal microchips have been touted as a way of registering the vaccines people have had etc [link]. They would work rather like pet chips and just as scanable at airports etc.   

       [edit: I had to check the date on that linked article because its hilarious. Exercise powered blockchain with patent number 060606 - ok. Wifi birth control microchip - uhuh. Nothing sinister at all, and Bill Gates had absolutely nothing to do with either ... no wait.]
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       //// I don't think it's worth it any more // [loris], was it ever worth it? Have you ever convinced a conspiracy believer that they are wrong? At best you might plant an alternate conspiracy theory in their heads.//   

       I dunno. I think I did persuade bigsleep over PCR testing, in the Tarantino thread.
Hmm. Back when the internet existed but tabloids were still the primary vector of fake news, I considered setting up a website which would manufacture and publish the most egregious "scare stories" (as they were called at the time) it could get away with. It seemed like a lot of trouble for not enough... well, 4chan would say lols. A few years later I found The Onion was doing it far better than I could have hoped. Now, though, the entire sector has been weaponised and commercialised, and that all seems quaint.
Loris, Apr 20 2021
  

       Are you lot not all dead yet? Do hurry up.
pocmloc, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Definitely not a pandemic//   

       What exactly would you call a few million dead?   

       RNA does what RNA does. You have lots and lots and lots of it.
RayfordSteele, Apr 20 2021
  

       pan·dem·ic
/pan-DEM-ik/
adjective
(of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.
a1, Apr 20 2021
  

       //I think I did persuade bigsleep over PCR testing//   

       Not really. In a controlled setting it works well, but in the kinds of labs doing mass testing there's lots of contamination (BBC piece). The counts and paperwork can be fudged through pool testing and faulty instructions to the lab. There also does not seem to be a discount in the numbers when considering 50% of the positives from shedding inactive virus.   

       //What exactly would you call a few million dead?//   

       Many who died "with covid" had "from covid" written on their death certificate. The official UK blurb is "died within 28 days of a positive test", regardless of whether it was a car crash etc.   

       //pandemic//   

       You could create a pandemic of anything by excessive PCR testing.   

       One statement that stuck with me from early on was "trying to stop the flu is like trying to stop the wind". Same for corona. Now although live corona doesn't last long in the air, DNA fragments do. And those travel far and can be picked up by PCR.   

       The only thing you can do is count the bodies after people die from Acute Respiratory Failure, and we haven't got many of those. Plenty from heart attacks *with* covid, but not many *from* covid.
bigsleep, Apr 20 2021
  

       If you were to look at all of humanity as a single being then what we are being subjected to is the equivalent of the body-politic going through anaphylactic shock from a single bee sting.   

       The overreaction far exceeds the stimulus and my con-dar has been going off since before this ever started.
They've just given the cops here the right to spontaneously pull over any vehicle without reason just to make sure you haven't left your "Health Region".
  

       I give folks two... maybe three more stolen rights before they are going to completely lose their shit on the power hungry bastards... and the deaths caused can be blamed on covid.   

       Ted Nugent, Covid denier, WAKES UP [link]
AusCan531, Apr 20 2021
  

       //Not really. In a controlled setting it works well, but in the kinds of labs doing mass testing there's lots of contamination (BBC piece). The counts and paperwork can be fudged through pool testing and faulty instructions to the lab. There also does not seem to be a discount in the numbers when considering 50% of the positives from shedding inactive virus.//   

       Well, The first part of that is actually quite nuanced. (I saw that program as well, and think it does raise concerns over cross-contamination in at least /that/ big testing centre). I'm not sure you realise quite how far you've come.
But you clearly still have conspiratorial concerns, even on that.
  

       So it's like this- you, bigsleep, punt out a lot of 'evidence', all of it basically bullshit. But you're not spending any time actually validating any of it - you don't even realise when the stuff you're citing undermines your position.
For example, while looking at the PCR conversation, I found this:
  

       //[...]Newsweek is reporting today that 1000 people have died from the vaccine in the US.//
So I thought... well, I'll go and look at that.
And I found an article on newsweek.com "Fact Check: Have 966 People Died After Receiving the COVID vaccine?".
So I read that. ... And you know what it said?
Well, they looked at how many people have died in the US after receiving one of the two covid19 vaccines.
And they found that :
//Our VAERS result showed 970 people died after being given a Pfizer or Moderna vaccine shot.// So they rated the claim as "Mostly True".
But then... and this is the important bit... they went on to say:
::However, it is false to say that COVID vaccines have caused 966 deaths, because the VAERS database is not designed to give this information.::
  

       You know how you're complaining that the 'death within 28 days of a positive test' stat includes car-crash victims and so on? Well, you're doing that, only much more so.   

       ::For example, in the dataset published by The Epoch Times, one of the people who died after getting a vaccine had also been injured in a car crash between getting the jab and the date of their death, but the case was still included in the dataset.::   

       ::The CDC said on its adverse events page, updated March 1: "To date, VAERS has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines."::   

       The basic problem you're having is addressed in an article on fullfact.org. I'll provide a link. Go and read it- it explains what you're not understanding, and why none of the experts are worried about that like you are.   

       /Please/ learn to evaluate your sources. This sort of error should be embarrassing.
Loris, Apr 20 2021
  

       Collectively destroying the economy over the latest variation if the common cold should be embarrassing.   

       Sending covid positive patients back to their care-homes to make space for a massive influx threatening our entire hospital system, which never materialized, should be embarrassing.   

       Extorting the population of Earth to take a vaccine, (somehow not subjected to the same FDA regs as every other drug), or else lose more rights, which programs RNA to fight a specific virus at the cost of losing wide-spread immune response should be more than embarrassing. It is criminal.   

       ^ Once again, I live in the best performing economy in the world. Because. We. Took. Care. Of. Business.   

       You guys half-assing it and not extinguishing the flames can't complain about the ongoing fire-fighting efforts. Canada did a better job than the States (duh) and have a much lower infection rate per capita as a result. Many many thousands of Canadians are still alive to reap the benefit of the vaccine rollout and subsequent re-opening of the economy.   

       And just calling it like 'the common cold' is a dangerous, disingenuous lie. It prolongs the problem because 'believers' don't feel the need to take strong pro-active measures. They then complain because the problem hasn't gone away.
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       We have no fucking Covid here. We're just being further and further squeazed... because... damned if I know why.
Apparently because we've been told so
  

       ...for our health.   

       ...or else.   

       //damned if I know why.//   

       Obviously it's all a plot by the people running things to crash the economy and become extremely unpopular because.... umm... reasons. And the whole world across the political spectrum is in on it. Damned if I know why either. You could almost say it's unbelievable.   

       By the way, [2 Fries], while you can have your own opinions, you can't have your own facts. [link] There's waay too much Covid in BC with over 1,500 deaths. Not to mention those who didn't quite actually die but will have lingering issues.
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       So... again, it's a variant of the common cold.   

       The, (ever increasing numbers thrown at us), do not warrant the over response.   

       Were he alive today, Max would tell you you're a damn fool.   

       [marked-for-deletion- with-extreme-prejudice]
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       I would never presume to speak for someone after their death when they can't speak for themselves... but I also wish he was here to shed some light. He wasn't one of my favorite teachers for nothing.   

       We'd have had a rousing debate with names flung and much consternation and fact checking.   

       I would have learned much more than I have about this since he left us.   

       [un-marked-for-deletion]   

       Valid posting.   

       //The, (ever increasing numbers thrown at us)//   

       Did you expect the numbers of dead to... go down?
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       [m-f-d] [link]
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       I expected the numbers presented to be unbiased as numbers are supposed to be, but they are not are they?   

       Now it's just total number of covid deaths, total number of hospitalizations, total number of intensive care patients... and oh yeah, another mass shooting, and another cop shooting somebody... over to you Jim.   

       Where's the other news?
Why do I have to search for it?
  

       How exactly has the fifth estate been manipulated to this extent if conspiracies are not the new-normal?   

       un[m-f-d]'d   

       A lawn ornament to virulently water your lawn is a perfectly valid posting which does not exist.   

       That you dislike the turn the discussion has taken on said posting is not a reason for deletion.   

       We've met [AusCan]. I like you. One of us needs to question the assumptions they've made. I am willing to admit that it might be me.   

       Are you?   

       If not, then... your emotions have been used to override your scientific reasoning because you are not questioning this.   

       //I like you. One of us needs to question the assumptions they've made. I am willing to admit that it might be me.//   

       :::::::applause:::::::   

       In this case, [2 fries], I think [AusCan] is right and you are wrong - but one of the things we learned from Marshall McLuhan back in the 1960s is that the way we debate may end up being more important than which side we're on. The worst thing we can do is divide people into "Fearless Warriors for Truth" vs. "Mindless Dupes of Dark Forces" - even though the algorithms which recommend content to us in YouTube and other places tend to promote exactly that habit.
pertinax, Apr 21 2021
  

       I've met and liked you too [2 Fries] and still intend to stand in that purple room at your new place someday - when Canada gets Covid under control :) I just feel that this discussion about world conspiracies, secret plans to subjugate the population, pedophilia and whatever else is just polluting an otherwise fun website. I don't want to subject the others to this stuff but, as you have my email address, we can continue offline if you like.   

       Just pick which topic is under discussion first:   

       The doctors and scientists are lying to us,   

       there's a conspiracy to destroy the economy,   

       there's a conspiracy to subjugate the populace through lockdown,   

       Covid is no worse than the flu.   

       Covid doesn't exist,   

       microchips are being injected vaccines don't work,   

       this is some sort of move by pedophiliacs   

       It seems to me that you and [bigsleep] have reached your nefarious-flavoured conclusions first then look to find theories and justifications later. It's real tinfoil hat stuff beyond a joke while people are dying.   

       Everyone else is tired of listening to this crap, I'm sure, as we're only going in circles. Like I say. Offline is fine.
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       Okay... so that was everything I've never said used to manipulate me into taking this conversation off-line so that it can't be seen by others without answering my question.   

       Are you willing to admit that it might be you who is mistaken?
It's a simple question.
  

       Can you conceive of such a scenario?   

       Yes, or no?   

       Absolutely. You and [bigs] are the only ones marching in step in the marching band. Everyone else is out of step.   

       YES That includes me, the CDC, WHO, Medical Health agencies from almost every country in the world as well as all the doctors and scientists who spend their lives studying this stuff. We could be wrong and you two right - it's all a conspiracy.   

       Meanwhile, I'm off to the waterslides again.
AusCan531, Apr 21 2021
  

       [Pert] I swear... I hope to God I am wrong. I can easily live with that.. the alternative... not so much.   

       Y'all just never lived through it to be able to feel it coming.   

       Fuck I hope I'm wrong... but I've also sacrificed twenty some odd years of my life trying to find a place that has a snowballs chance in hell of surviving what I see coming to be where I now am.   

       All because my gut wouldn't let me sleep at night until I listened to it.   

       Yep. I'm just that crazy.   

       ...   

       Doesn't mean I'm wrong and if you, any of you, can not conceive of that...   

       ...then I'm right.   

       I'm tired of being right all the time.   

       alone   

       //Newsweek is reporting today that 1000 people have died from the vaccine in the US.//   

       It is cause for concern as many of these happen in healthy people. Many countries have banned the AZ vaccine because some adverse reactions are strongly suspected to be the vaccine.   

       Personally I'm less inclined to get any vaccine now. Can you explain how an adjuvant is associated with the spike protein that is created after human cells have been infiltrated with anti-freeze coated mRNA ? Or is it like I'm thinking 'not very much' and 'by proximity'.   

       The overall adverse reaction numbers in the UK don't seem that worrying. If half the UK population has had 2 jabs, then within 2 weeks of each jab you're covering 1/24th of all health incidents in the UK. So e.g. 4000 cardiac events doesn't seem out of place.   

       Its false equivalency to compare the time window post vaccine to the time window post PCR test. We're not claiming that PCR tests are killing people but just that deaths are being falsely attributed.
bigsleep, Apr 21 2021
  

       I think you should actually read the link I gave, because it explains why you're wrong.   

       //Many countries have banned the AZ vaccine because some adverse reactions are strongly suspected to be the vaccine.//   

       The AstraZeneca vaccine does seem to confer a small risk of serious complication, and a smaller risk of death from that - it's something like one in a million.
However, that's so low compared to the risk conferred by covid-19 it's still worth it. I'm hoping to be offered it at some point soon. I think the countries which banned it have overreacted; more people will die because that will slow down their vaccination programme.
Of course, the newsweek article wasn't about the AstraZeneca vaccine at all.
  

       I'm starting to think you just don't get quite how damaging spamming out mistakes and errors is to your case. It's entirely possible that you have a valid point, somewhere, but if it's trivial to rebut the first few points of yours someone looks at, it's easy to assume that you're wrong on everything.
Loris, Apr 21 2021
  

       //I think you should actually read the link I gave//   

       It says the 28 day rule is not precise.   

       //small risk of serious complication//   

       Can you have a stab at answering my question ?   

       "Can you explain how an adjuvant is associated with the spike protein ? (that is created after human cells have been infiltrated with anti-freeze coated mRNA)"   

       I know you are not responsible for the vaccines, but in your opinion how does that work ?
bigsleep, Apr 21 2021
  

       //A lawn ornament to virulently water your lawn is a perfectly valid posting which does not exist.//   

       The "idea" here practically admits what its purpose is. Sorry but no court judge would buy this. "Yes, judge, I brought this dufflebag with me because I needed to give this stick of chewing gum to Mr. Gotti because he asked for a piece, I didn't notice the wads of hundred dollar bills that also happened to be in it."
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       Jesus we've been over this.   

       Did you forget that there was a lockdown?   

       Did you forget that our hospitals were operating on fumes?   

       Did you forget that we had ventilator shortages?   

       Did you forget about the nurses who have been worked to exhaustion?   

       And 2f, let me ease your burden. You are not right all of the time.
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       //It says the 28 day rule is not precise.//   

       It says more than that. It says things like:   

       ::[...] even if some people who did not die of Covid are included in deaths after a positive test, the measure has actually tended to undercount the true number of deaths that Covid causes.::   

       //"Can you explain how an adjuvant is associated with the spike protein ? (that is created after human cells have been infiltrated with anti-freeze coated mRNA)"
I know you are not responsible for the vaccines, but in your opinion how does that work ?//
  

       Okay, but only with the corollary I'm only a layperson in the field, and it's probably the last time in this conversation.   

       Adjuvants, I have heard about. They're chemicals added to vaccines to 'draw the attention' of the immune system and make the vaccine actually work. As far as I know, most vaccines have them, and of course they're carefully scrutinised for safety, as are all ingredients of medicine.   

       "anti-freeze coated mRNA" - well, that sounds wierd, but I infer you're talking about something specific. Obviously it's to do with the RNA vaccines, i.e. the Moderna or Pfizer ones.
A quick google search later, I think this might be that mRNA vaccines contain small amounts of polyethylene glycol (PEG). "Polyethylene glycol is not the same substance as ethylene glycol, a potentially deadly compound commonly found in antifreeze."
I think it's something to do with maintaining the structure of the lipid nanoparticles which help get the mRNA into cells.
  

       So, apart from that - looking at the question again, I think your concern here might be that the mRNA encodes the virus' spike protein and also some other protein as an adjuvant?
I don't know about this, let me have a look...
Couldn't find anything on that. As far as I know that isn't the case.
  

       However, I did find hits mentioning PEG as a potential cause of the (very rare) allergic reactions to these vaccines. The article I read said it might be that, or it might be the adjuvant. I actually don't know what the adjuvant of these vaccines are, but from a list of ingredients suspect it might be the salts...   

       Found an article which says the Pfizer covid vaccine doesn't have an adjuvant.:
:: Dr. Malvestutto says [...] "It doesn't have the adjuvants [an ingredient that creates a stronger immune response] or other materials that are usually needed in other vaccines,"::
I found another article which corroborates that. No adjuvant in Pfizer.
  

       I didn't find an explicit statement that the Moderna vaccine doesn't have an adjuvant, but I did find an article listing and describing the ingredients of these two RNA vaccines (and the J&J vaccine too), and no adjuvant was mentioned.   

       So the upshot is that it looks like the premise of your question is wrong:
There is /no/ adjuvant associated with the spike protein in Pfizer or Moderna Covid-19 vaccines.
Loris, Apr 21 2021
  

       This is the part where normally someone mature would admit that they were wrong and move on with life.
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       // the part where normally someone mature //   

       Are any of us normal or mature?
a1, Apr 21 2021
  

       Strange how few votes there are on this topic.   

       If you don’t like it, bone it. I have.
a1, Apr 21 2021
  

       //mRNA vaccines contain small amounts of polyethylene glycol//   

       It's what the mRNA is wrapped in - a tiny bubble of PEG. On encountering a cell the lipids allow access to the cell innards and protein manufacture can begin. Interesting about the adjuvants. I thought they were in all corona vaccines (either squalene from sharks or newer synthetic ones).   

       So auto-immune adverse reactions are pretty much down to the spike protein. Obviously if those spikes get manufactured in or associated with blood cells you're going to get clotting.   

       Regardless, its obvious drug companies do not fully understand the mechanisms of vaccines or adjuvants (one paper suggests 4 possible actions). And they did exclude anybody with allergies or any other existing problems from the first trials. That's why its a bit cheeky to run your Phase 3 trials on the general population.
bigsleep, Apr 21 2021
  

       //It's what the mRNA is wrapped in - a tiny bubble of PEG. On encountering a cell the lipids allow access to the cell innards and protein manufacture can begin.//   

       yeNO.
The mRNA is in a lipid emulsion. (Tiny droplets, or 'bubbles' of lipid in water)
PEG isn't a lipid. It's a hydrophylic molecule.
I'm not an expert, but as I understand it:
Molecules can be made of PEG attached to lipid. Such a hybrid molecule has a hydrophylic ("water-liking") and hydrophobic ("water-hating") parts, and so is "amphipathic". These can stabilise emulsions, as I understand it by essentially by preventing the droplets of oil from touching each other and glomming together. Depending on the desired characteristics, you don't necessarily have to PEGylate every oil molecule, and possibly you may not need to link the two types of molecule at all.
  

       //So auto-immune adverse reactions are pretty much down to the spike protein. Obviously if those spikes get manufactured in or associated with blood cells you're going to get clotting.//   

       I think you're using technical words and phrases without understanding what they mean. You're trying to draw inferences with a woefully poor knowledge of the material.
Loris, Apr 21 2021
  

       From dear old Wikipedia:   

       PEG is the basis of a number of laxatives (as MiraLax). Whole bowel irrigation with polyethylene glycol and added electrolytes is used for bowel preparation before surgery or colonoscopy. PEG is also used as an excipient in many pharmaceutical products. PEG used in medicines for treating disimpaction and maintenance therapy for children with constipation. When attached to various protein medications, polyethylene glycol allows a slowed clearance of the carried protein from the blood. The possibility that PEG could be used to fuse axons is being explored by researchers studying peripheral nerve and spinal cord injury. An example of PEG hydrogels (see "Biological uses" section) in a therapeutic has been theorized by Ma et al. They propose using the hydrogel to address periodontitis (gum disease) by encapsulating stem cells in the gel that promote healing in the gums. The gel and encapsulated stem cells was to be injected to the site of disease and crosslinked to create the microenvironment required for the stem cells to function.
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       //I think you're using technical words and phrases without understanding what they mean.//   

       That's unfair. I have a pretty good grasp of enough stuff to make an informed decision. I'm not a black and white decision person so several things can inform e.g.   

       * The government running a fear campaign doesn't build trust
* Media not mentioning the other 80% of leading causes of death doesn't build trust
* The vaccines were not fully tested. AZ Phase 3 trials concluded 31st March this year. Not sure if further trials are running on the public.
* Getting an unnecessary vaccine is like playing russian roulette.
* Drug companies don't have a good track record of having users' best interests at heart. (Prozac, Oxycontin, Statins ...)
  

       And that's before getting into any conspiracy stuff.   

       So I'm going to wait until the vaccine until its fully tested and the true risks are known. In the meantime I'll boost my immune system with healthy food and essential supplements like Vitamin D, which in reality is probably all people need anyway, especially if black or living in northern latitudes.
bigsleep, Apr 21 2021
  

       ^ I am in agreement with you here [bigsleep] it’s only common sense.   

       my definition of this pandemic is not a disease around the entire world but part of the world that is controlled by media. propaganda is on both sides and it’s difficult to weed out what is truth and maybe we will never know for sure. You either live in fear or you don’t.
xandram, Apr 21 2021
  

       // I have a pretty good grasp of enough stuff to make an informed decision //   

       How's your grasp of the Dunning-Kruger effect?
a1, Apr 21 2021
  

       Yeah, I didn't think so.
a1, Apr 21 2021
  

       But okay, I'll try again. Go to Worldometers.info - these are statistics aggregated from multiple sources and I tend to believe them to be "close enough" even if they aren't perfect.   

       So... world population around 7,860,600,643 - diagnosed covid cases 144,206,946 - deaths where covid was the underlying cause 3,065,402. That makes it 1 in 54 people have been diagnosed with it, 1 in 2620 have died from it. What vaccine side effects (and odds of having them) are you concerned about again?   

       Of course, there's 1:1 chance of you dying of something, eventually. But as long as you're working to delay the inevitable, wouldn't make sense to compare as many risk factors as possible?
a1, Apr 21 2021
  

       //* The government running a fear campaign doesn't build trust//   

       What exactly _would_ build trust amongst the conspiratorially-bent? Some sort of 'This is your brain. This is your brain on COVID' campaign? 'Yes, we operate the Men in Black, but we are the good guys' messaging?   

       //* Media not mentioning the other 80% of leading causes of death doesn't build trust//   

       Is it their job to make sure you're completely informed about all of the hazards of life, or is it yours?   

       //* The vaccines were not fully tested. AZ Phase 3 trials concluded 31st March this year. Not sure if further trials are running on the public.//   

       Yeah no shit. Full trials take more time than what would be wise.   

       //* Getting an unnecessary vaccine is like playing russian roulette.//   

       At roughly the odds of getting struck by lightning.   

       //* Drug companies don't have a good track record of having users' best interests at heart. (Prozac, Oxycontin, Statins ...)//   

       I think you're conflating general drugs and vaccines quite a bit though, and you're making Max roll over.
RayfordSteele, Apr 21 2021
  

       (Disclaimer: I've mostly been reading this for the comedy value; I'm not a biochemist.)
This first question to ask if you think there's a conspiracy is "what is the gain, & who gains it?".
For Covid:
It's not money: the whole world's economy has tanked.
It's not control: there's (seems to be, in the USA at least) MORE anarchy, not less.
It's not China: most of the vaccines are manufactured elsewhere (the "create problem then sell solution" angle).
It's not "the vaccine is a microchip" or some similar garbage: everyone already has a phone in their pocket; governments don't NEED to do anything else to track people...
  

       I agree that there are/have been some questionable things, but I don't see any "global conspiracy". If 2 can keep a secret if 1 is dead, how do <whoever is "behind" this> convince tens of thousands of health workers etc etc to keep quiet?   

       As for the vaccines "being rushed & untested", the "normal" testing system involves a lot of waiting, paperwork, and bureaucracy. THAT is the part that has been fast-tracked. The "poke needles in test subjects" part is more-or-less the same.
neutrinos_shadow, Apr 21 2021
  

       //"what is the gain, & who gains it?"//   

       I see it as "who screwed up & who's going to jail?".   

       One last time we'll do the death numbers. Here are the official yearly death tolls for the US courtesy of the CDC (I repeated a search e.g. "CDC US deaths 2018" to get straight to the numbers)-   

       2017 - 2,813,503
2018 - 2,839,205
2019 - 2,854,838
2020 - 3,358,814 including 377,883 from covid-19.
  

       As we know most deaths are old people greater than 75 years of age. The demographics for covid are *more* biassed to the old and the frail.   

       377,883 / 2,854,838 = 13.2%   

       So that's at most 13.2% extra mostly old people who died in 2020; and they died alone.   

       Those are cold hard facts. You can decide for yourselves whether lockdowns worked, were worth it or a humane way to live.   

       And take your Vitamin D. Dr. Fauci takes 6000 IU per day which is 10 times the recommended dose. But he is an old bloke.
bigsleep, Apr 21 2021
  

       //Is it their job to make sure you're completely informed about all of the hazards of life, or is it yours?//   

       Theirs. That's the job they signed up for. Everything but disinformation. That's literally their job if they don't want to become a laughing stock.   

       //It's not China: most of the vaccines are manufactured elsewhere (the "create problem then sell solution" angle).//   

       Hold up now.
You're not thinking like a centuries old dictatorship. You can not jump into that mans' head, and I can.
China leased Hong Kong to the UK for 99 years after the war between the two so that the UK could peddle their drugs which caused the war in the first place.
When the take back was to happen suddenly everybody was up in arms to protest the subjugation and re-communization of that which rightfully belongs to China.
  

       This can not be allowed.   

       "I" as the ruler of the last dictatorship on the planet would not allow such a thing.
You would cause me to lose face at your own peril.
My people make all of your goods. My people keep your economies running... and now you want to vilify and protest me taking back what is mine?...
  

       How about no?   

       How about that?
You will capitulate or the next virus released will wipe out 60% of your population and the one after that will wipe out 80%...
  

       ...and I will still have millions of subjects and your countries will be ripe for conquest.   

       Why bomb what you can buy for cheap still standing?   

       Fucking idiots running this show.   

       [2 fries], I think there are two things wrong with the scenario you describe.   

       First, threats are no use if the person you're threatening doesn't know you're threatening them. This is why terrorist groups claim responsibility for their bombs. Since China has not claimed responsibility for covid-19, although we cannot rule out the remote possibility that they created it on purpose for some reason as yet unknown to us, we *can* rule out the possibility that they created it so that we would shut up about Hong Kong.   

       Second, suppose, for the sake of argument, that covid-19 were an instrument of Chinese state policy; in that case, by far the best policy response for western countries would be to practise civil defense measures so as to be better prepared for future outbreaks. In other words, that would be an argument in favour of lockdowns, not against them, wouldn't it?
pertinax, Apr 22 2021
  

       I don't want you to feel you are threatened. I am not a terrorist.   

       You will just desist... and I will let you go about your business once you have learned your lesson.   

       ...or not.   

       What can you do about it?   

       //What can you do about it?//   

       See my second paragraph.
pertinax, Apr 22 2021
  

       If you mean your first second paragraph and not some other random second paragraph then I get it.   

       ...but I sure as shit don't have to like it.   

       These things need to be discussed by fringe folks... and those folks are here.   

       I like to think that they are under my protection... absolutely anyone is welcome to try and prove me wrong.   

       Mama always said; "Life is like a box of chocolates ... it'll kill your dog."   

       Sorry, I seem to have lost the ability to count up to three ...   

       Hang on ...   

       I meant the paragraph on my recent annotation which begins with the word "Second", but is in fact the third paragraph of that annotation.   

       Do you think I could get away with muttering something about "zero-based arrays"? No, never mind. But that was the paragraph I was referring to, anyway.
pertinax, Apr 22 2021
  

       Got my invite for a vaccination today.
No nearby vaccination centres available on the website this morning, but just tried again and managed to get a slot for tomorrow afternoon.
Loris, Apr 22 2021
  

       Got mine weeks ago and so did my wife. Surprising as we don’t meet age or other guidelines set by our state. But I’m a veteran and local VA hospital wanted to jab as many vets and spouses as possible.
a1, Apr 22 2021
  

       Good luck guys. There's a 1 in 10,000 chance that you'll all suffer from Poisson Apparu Syndrome, which I believe is being hit by a spontaneously appearing trout.
bigsleep, Apr 22 2021
  

       Had my second shot last Sunday.
RayfordSteele, Apr 23 2021
  

       They can jab me with their untested shit only when they give me no other choice... which I pray never comes because I can't predict my reaction to that happening.   

       Enough of you should have been vaccinated by then that I will no longer be perceived as a threat for not having done so... since I will no longer be able make you ill as I allow my own body to fight the way it has evolved to fight viruses and illness.   

       By all means protect those most at risk... (should have been a first place priority in my mind... but I was not consulted), while not fucking over my life... thank you very much...
signed;
The General Public.
  

       Can anyone answer why those most at risk were not protected in the first place?   

       Why entire societies were bankrupted when the cost of placing all at-risk individuals in 5-star hotels for the duration of the pandemic would have been a fraction of the cost to society?   

       Why we've been lied to about... well every-fucking-thing since this shit started?   

       ...   

       Anyone?   

       //That's unfair. I have a pretty good grasp of enough stuff to make an informed decision. I'm not a black and white decision person so several things can inform e.g. [snip list of essentially political shit]//   

       It's absolutely fair, because I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the pseudoscience you've been spewing in this thread (and others).   

       You went on about antifreeze in vaccines, when I pointed out it wasn't antifreeze you still went on about it.   

       //So auto-immune adverse reactions[...]//   

       The clotting isn't an auto-immune reaction. It's actually the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine which appears to confer a (very small) increased risk of a particular blood clot, not the mRNA ones. Having Covid-19 actually gives a much higher clotting risk, but never mind that.   

       And that's just from the last few posts!   

       By all means continue to complain about political issues, but don't try to underwrite your argument with fallacious claims.   

       . . .   

       //They can jab me with their untested shit only when they give me no other choice... which I pray never comes because I can't predict my reaction to that happening.//   

       Stop being such a twat. You're in ... Canada right?
So any vaccine you're likely to be given will have been /heavily/ tested. Some parts of Canada already have some vaccine requirements, so it's not entirely unprecedented, and I'm not interested in researching another countries law, but unless you're directly exposing people to risk (such as being a medical worker) I think it's unlikely to be required.
  

       //Can anyone answer why those most at risk were not protected in the first place?//   

       Incompetence?   

       //Why entire societies were bankrupted when the cost of placing all at-risk individuals in 5-star hotels for the duration of the pandemic would have been a fraction of the cost to society?//   

       I don't accept the premise, but perhaps because putting over a third of adults[1] up in 5-star hotels indefinitely is a) impractical, due to insufficient capacity, b) unlikely to be much safer at scale, c) probably not actually cheaper.   

       //Why we've been lied to about... well every-fucking- thing since this shit started?//   

       You have been, but not by the people you think.   

       //Enough of you should have been vaccinated by then that I will no longer be perceived as a threat for not having done so... since I will no longer be able make you ill as I allow my own body to fight the way it has evolved to fight viruses and illness.//   

       By all means continue freeloading off the more responsible members of society.   

       [1] "About four in ten adults (37.6%) ages 18 and older in the U.S. (92.6 million people) have a higher risk of developing serious illness if they become infected with coronavirus, due to their older age (65 and older) or health condition"
I doubt Canada has particularly superior demographics.
Loris, Apr 24 2021
  

       //Obviously if those spikes get manufactured in or associated with blood cells you're going to get clotting.//   

       Could it be I was on to something about blood clotting ? [link]   

       "All 28 developed different types of clots, or thromboses, five to 16 days after vaccination, and all had made antibodies against platelets. Six of the 28 died from their clotting complications. In the other study, five health care workers in Norway who were vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine and developed clots seven to 10 days later, also had high levels of platelet-specific antibodies; three died."   

       This needs reading carefully - "also had high levels of platelet-specific antibodies". Meaning the immune system recognized the spike protein and took out those modified platelets, but *also* developed anti-bodies* to the blood cells themselves. That is an auto-immune reaction.   

       There are other sources that link the injection site to rare blood clot events i.e. injecting into a blood rich area gives increased probability of the above reaction.   

       * This is also a good place to explain cross-immunity. If you have had SARS-1 then anti-bodies get created for not just one specific part of the virus, but many parts. So although the spike protein is different in SARS-2, you may still have protection through the immune system recognizing other parts. This is why its dangerous to have your own cells expressing an alien spike protein. It's also why getting the real virus gives better immunity.
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       //Could it be I was on to something about blood clotting ?//   

       Dude, we were talking about exactly the vaccines which /don't/ cause clotting!   

       Because I believe in disclosing everything, I will say I found an article (with a publication date 22nd Apr, so after your post) which says the clotting in the AstraZeneca vaccine (and possibly Janssen/Johnson&Johnson vaccine) may be a short-lived auto-immune effect, /but/ suggests it involves the viral vector (an adenovirus in both cases).   

       So no, you wern't on to anything.
Loris, Apr 24 2021
  

       //It's an away game for the football this weekend so I might go to a waterslide instead.//   

       Oh well. Some people obviously saw you were about to enjoy yourself.
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       //we were talking about exactly the vaccines//   

       Don't. We are talking about everything.
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       //We are talking about everything.//   

       /You/ are talking about random things in whatever order you feel like, and without regard for clarity or validity.
/I/ am trying to be correct.
  

       In 2015, in the Afghan city of Kunduz, a US aircraft attacked a government building that had been seized by Taliban fighters. It precisely, neatly destroyed an entirely different building - a Medecins Sans Frontieres clinic, killing at least 30 civilians.
Was this a success, or a failure?
Because that's what you did there.
Loris, Apr 24 2021
  

       If you don't find what I'm saying interesting. Ok. You correct about everything. Maybe it would be simpler if my opinions were silenced.   

       //without regard for clarity or validity//   

       Ok. I'll give you a proper reply. The above is only *your* opinion and there is no doubt you look at knowledge very differently to me.   

       For example, I put a lot less weight behind epidemiology because its biassed toward profit making and because it has been hugely corrupted in the past e.g. saturated fat studies. It is after all a branch of statistics that tries to find causality from correlation. It can prove a new wonder medicine 'works' or that bacon and coffee are both good and bad for you on alternating weeks. Don't get me wrong, some studies are great and well carried out, but in general my opinion of epidemiology is that its not really a science, especially with trial numbers less than 1000. In general I just don't trust it as much as hearing a scientist e.g. a microbiologist talk about hypothetical mechanisms e.g. why some people get arthritis after starting statins (lack of Q10).   

       In terms of generalities. Yes, I'll draw back and take an overview. Specifics are not as interesting as the bigger picture. From -   

       "also had high levels of platelet-specific antibodies"   

       you took away that I was talking about the wrong vaccine, whereas my takeaway was that its not a problem with one specific vaccine but of all mRNA type vaccines for coronavirus, and all future mRNA vaccines.   

       Two very different ways to look at the same papers, articles and shall we include 'interviews with specialists' ?   

       Just because you can nitpick things I say it doesn't mean my knowledge is any less valid - it just has say, a broader brush, part of which is to try to communicate to a lay audience.   

       What we have is differing opinions, so don't going trying to label that as me always be wrong and you always being right. That just makes you pretty darn arrogant. And I'm not going to construct my arguments in legalese so that you can't nitpick. Just take the arguments in good faith for gods sake.
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       // What we have is differing opinions //   

       “You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.” Presented with myriad data source, you pick the ones that fit your opinions - disregarding those that don’t, no matter how well researched.   

       But despite a strong urge to sometimes tell you to shut up, I really wouldn’t want to silence you completely. Every village needs an idiot.
a1, Apr 24 2021
  

       Ok, I'll say it. Bigs, do shut up.
RayfordSteele, Apr 24 2021
  

       //you pick the ones that fit your opinions//   

       You have no idea how many articles I'm reading. I tend to post one or two references indicative of my overall comprehension of any particular point. For example my opinion on epidemiology goes back about 5 years.   

       [a1] and [Rayford]   

       What are you bringing to the conversation other than pitchforks ?
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       //By all means continue freeloading off the more responsible members of society.//   

       That sentence says a lot about how the many can be trained to shame the few into doing just about anything.   

       I stand by what I said and if that makes me a Canadian twat then so be it... but I will be an un-vaccinated Canadian twat eh.   

       // What are you bringing to the conversation other than pitchforks //   

       I haven’t been keeping score for RayfordSteele, but for my own part I’ve pointed out what Fauci actually did say about vitamins, masks, lockdowns, vaccines — and that many of the other references you’ve offered (youtube vids, echo-chamber conspiracy theories, non-peer-reviewed and often retracted articles) have been refuted by better, wider research.   

       As for pitchforks...even metaphorically I don’t think it’s come to that. I certainly haven’t threatened you with violence. “I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow.”   

       And even in name calling I’ve been gentle. For example, “village idiot” is much lighter than “fucking moron” - as a former secretary of state most accurately called a former president.
a1, Apr 24 2021
  

       I like to travel lightly, so I only bring what's necessary. In this case, as its all been said and done, it should be done.   

       So yes, this pointy object I hold is a pitchfork. You might think of me as a hired goon. But I prefer the term "social awareness adjustment facilitator." The pay is low, but the work is oddly satisfying.
RayfordSteele, Apr 24 2021
  

       // yes, this pointy object I hold is a pitchfork //   

       But how do you stick it through your broadband connection?
a1, Apr 24 2021
  

       //for my own part I’ve pointed out what Fauci actually did say about vitamins//   

       Yes and you usefully included the sentence where Fauci says Vitamin D helps fight infections. If you couple that with the fact that Fauci takes 10x the recommended dose of Vitamin D and that many studies are emerging with multiple benefits of Vitamin D and bingo! you start to get the idea Vitamin D is linked to all sorts of things. In Finland where food has been fortified with vitamin D, rates of obesity and diabetes have also dropped - but there we stray into 'survey says'. What we do know is that black people suffer from more disease than whites, which could plausibly be linked to Vitamin D deficiency as black people don't make as much Vitamin D from the sun. Not that anybody does stuck in an office or at home.   

       So easy for you to nitpick. But when you combine many sources you start to get overwhelming evidence that Vitamin D is a massively overlooked area. I tried to illustrate this for your benefit but you'd rather sling negative rhetoric around.   

       Please take things in good faith and bring your own discoveries to the table.
bigsleep, Apr 24 2021
  

       "Discoveries" is a loaded term. Unless you have your own lab space you aren't "discovering" anything.   

       Black people here in America also largely live in what are essentially food deserts, where the only fruits and vegetables are the ketchup and sliced apples at McDonald's. That might have something to do with the state of their health.   

       Like I mentioned elsewhere. Florida has plenty of vitamin D.
RayfordSteele, Apr 24 2021
  

       bigsleep, could you go along with what else Dr. Fauci has said? About needing masks, social distancing, lockdowns, vaccines?   

       That’s a yes/no question, please try to answer in under a hundred words and without diversions.
a1, Apr 24 2021
  

       //Why we've been lied to about... well every-fucking-thing//   

       Please listen, [2 fries], because this is important: when I read an article from, say, the BBC, about something of which I happen to have some prior knowledge, I often notice that I am being "nudged" in a particular direction, but I have never yet found a direct, explicit lie.   

       The way the nudging works is by selective reporting of real facts, and careful framing of perfectly factual narratives. The nudging can be annoying, but it is very, very different from lying - not least because it is largely done in good faith.   

       This matters because the right way to respond to someone with a selective-but-accurate narrative in their head is very different from the right way to respond to someone who is cynically lying to you.   

       See link.
pertinax, Apr 25 2021
  

       pertinax wins.
blissmiss, Apr 25 2021
  

       {blushes}
pertinax, Apr 25 2021
  

       //when I read an article from, say, the BBC//
//Why we've been lied to about... well every-fucking-thing//

I agree with both of you on this. Is the BBC the best source for news in the UK? I would say so. At least it's a good starting point for further investigation of news stories. But that doesn't mean you should turn off your critical faculties when reading/watching/listening to its content. Or neglect to check out other sources of information. Especially the ones whose content you generally disagree with. In my view, it is important to understand what others are thinking & what their agenda is, even if you think they are talking rubbish.

So, rather than getting angry at the lying press/government/social media, read what they are saying, marshall your arguments against them & then tell everyone who will listen about how much they are wrong & *propose a constructive alternative*.

That is the core of politics and if enough people listen you might even get traction & start a movement. It's slow & energy sapping but forming opinions at grass roots level is the only way to create *sustainable* momentum for change.
DrBob, Apr 25 2021
  

       //could you go along with what else Dr. Fauci has said?//   

       See [link] for a non serious rebuttal.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       Yeah, I didn’t think so. F’n M.
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       //If you don't find what I'm saying interesting. Ok. You correct about everything. Maybe it would be simpler if my opinions were silenced.//   

       a) "You correct about everything." - Did you not notice me observing and publically acknowledging an error in the previous post?
b) "Maybe it would be simpler if my opinions were silenced." - If I thought that, I'd be doing a xenzag and demanding your account be deleted.
  

       //you took away that I was talking about the wrong vaccine, whereas my takeaway was that its not a problem with one specific vaccine but of all mRNA type vaccines for coronavirus, and all future mRNA vaccines.//   

       I take away from /that/ that you're /still/ confused about which vaccines are mRNA-based.   

         

       //What we have is differing opinions, so don't going trying to label that as me always be wrong and you always being right.//   

       No, as others have said this isn't about opinions, it's about facts. There /is/ a continuum, but it's right, through nearly right, 'close enough', to wrong and disastrously wrong.
Opinions are /extra/.
  

       //That just makes you pretty darn arrogant. And I'm not going to construct my arguments in legalese so that you can't nitpick. Just take the arguments in good faith for gods sake.//   

       I agree. But I think this should apply to everyone - including you.
How about this - be explicit in what you're talking about. Don't vacillate between topics without clarifying what you're doing. Also, make sure to read - and think about - what other people have written, rather than dismissing it.
  

         

         

         

       ////By all means continue freeloading off the more responsible members of society.////
//That sentence says a lot about how the many can be trained to shame the few into doing just about anything.//
  

       a) Of course it does. One of the few tools which makes civilisation work is disapproval of bad-for-society behavours, such as dangerous driving, criminal negligence, industrial pollution or whatever.
b) You say that 'the many' who do this here are trained, i.e. sheep. A common disparagement. But who here is /actually/ looking at the information available and thinking things through for themselves, and who is failing at that?
  

         

         

       Regarding vitamin D: //Yes and you usefully included the sentence where Fauci says Vitamin D helps fight infections. If you couple that with the fact that Fauci takes 10x the recommended dose of Vitamin D and that many studies are emerging with multiple benefits of Vitamin D and bingo! you start to get the idea Vitamin D is linked to all sorts of things.//   

       Why do all your concerns about statistics and epidemiology instantly go out of the window when Vitamin D is concerned?
Indeed, the current state of the research seems to suggest that the initial strongly positive indications in a (very small; n=76) trial didn't replicate. The advice seems to continue to be to try not be deficient, because that's bad /anyway/, and it can't hurt.
  

       I've also looked at your claim that Fauci is taking 10x the recommended dose. He certainly seems to have stated that he's taking supplements, and online multiple sources say a high dose (6000 IU).
However, there doesn't seem to actually be a standard recommended daily dose for vitamin D.
I have in front of me some "one a day" vitamin D tablets, with 25micrograms per pill.
since 1 microgram is 40 IU for this vitamin, each one is 1000 IU. So the implication is Dr Fauci could take 6 of those a day. ((Don't ragepost yet, I'm not disputing that Fauci's stated dose is pretty significantly more, I'm really not nitpicking your multiplier.))
  

       Did you know that there's a Vitamin D society?
Maybe if one were conspiracy-inclined, could argue that they're "big vitamin", making money off pill sales or something, but I can't fault them, because in their news section they've got a link to an article "Sunlight Linked With Lower COVID-19 Deaths – And NOT Because of Vitamin D".
Anyway, here's a line from a november press-release on vitamindsociety.org
::"Adults need a daily vitamin D intake of 4,000 IU/day (100 mcg) from all sources, according to vitamin D experts. Dr. Anthony Fauci, America’s top infectious disease expert, recommends vitamin D to reduce the risk of COVID-19. It was reported that Dr. Fauci takes 6,000 IU/day of vitamin D."
  

       I also found other sources, including a youtube video "Fauci Takes How Much Vitamin D??" of a doctor boggling at how much he's stated to be taking, saying it's 8-10 times the recommended dose.   

       So it looks like Fauci is taking a /high/ dose of vitaminD - or, at least, was at one point. But I want to add a bit of a caution.
Have you heard of vitamin poisoning?
Vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin, which in general means it can accumulate in the body. (conversely, an excess of water soluble vitamins like vitamin C tend to get pissed away).
  

       If you google this, you should be able to find descriptions of the effects of an excess. To reassure, I don't think a short-term small excess is much of an issue, but a big excess might long-term start to be an issue - it starts to strip calcium from the bones.   

       My guess on this is that Fauci took a test, found out he was rather vitamin D deficient, and went on a course of reasonably high doses to get back to the ideal range. At this point he made a comment somewhere to this effect, which maybe wasn't well-stated, or perhaps not reported in full. Later perhaps he reduced the dose to a maintenance level..
I suppose it's also possible that Fauci has some atypical metabolism, or perhaps can't absorb it well from the gut, or something which means he's still not actually got an above-normal vitamin D concentration.
Loris, Apr 26 2021
  

       //it's about facts//   

       Epidemiology is not fact. Its subjective interpretation as you can never truly rule out unforeseen factors. Give me an example of a hard immutable fact related to Covid.   

       //confused about which vaccines are mRNA-based//   

       Not really. I shouldn't have included viral vectors in the mRNA banner. I think 'DNA factory vaccine' would be a suitable umbrella. Both types are new to the last few years, only having limited outings during the Ebola outbreak.   

       On the subject of auto-immune reactions, I found out that any trauma to the body can cause one. Injuries, surgeries, infections, vaccines - anything. I guess time will tell how significant the risks are.   

       //My guess//   

       Ok. I don't think any good studies have been done. Seems obvious to me that the target levels would equate with someone running around in the sun a lot i.e. prehistory levels. An average over a sample of shirtless gardeners might work.   

       //Vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin, which in general means it can accumulate in the body.//   

       Testing levels is the obvious way to go. Accumulation of stuff can be a problem. I remember a Chubby Emu episode where a kid almost died of some poisoning. Years later despite not ingesting anything remotely poisonous he suddenly fell ill - the poison was coming out of bone due to an ion imbalance or something.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       4 out of a team of 10 people in India that I work with are currently off either sick themselves or caring for parents or family members who are sick, the remaining 6 are naturally worried at the systematic collapse of the health system over there in the last 2 weeks or so (the team are spread across the North, mostly between Kolkata and Delhi). That's not biased BBC reporting or conspiracy based bad-faith brain-washing, that's real people being affected by a very real virus that seems to have taken hold after a general relaxation of lockdown etc. I don't know how advanced the deployment of vaccination has been over there to date, some of the people in the team have had their vaccines, but as a total % of the population, I don't know. I mention that because you might hope that after enough people become immune, that should reduce infection rates.   

       I suppose the take away is; Either
  

       i) Covid is real
ii) I'm a stooge of big-pharma/The Illuminati/The Guardian
or iii) all of my India team are
  

       I tend to favour i) in which case, what's happening in India now is what any society would ideally be working together to avoid happening. Hospitals overwhelmed, shortages of oxygen, beds, facilities etc and temporary car-park crematoria being setup to deal a great deal more death than normal. I don't think anyone sets up car-park crematoria for any other reason than they absolutely have to - it's just not something you'd do after having been radicalised by something you read in social media.
zen_tom, Apr 26 2021
  

       ^ Interesting.   

       //a) Of course it does. One of the few tools which makes civilization work is disapproval of bad-for-society behaviours, such as dangerous driving, criminal negligence, industrial pollution or whatever.//   

       True, but it also can be used to cause societies to turn blind eyes towards things they normally wouldn't. Things like genocide of another culture, sociopaths in power, and pedophilia in the ranks of their upper class.   

       //b) You say that 'the many' who do this here are trained, i.e. sheep. A common disparagement. But who here is /actually/ looking at the information available and thinking things through for themselves, and who is failing at that?//   

       But... that's my line.
When misinformation outweighs information is when intuition becomes invaluable at navigating the flung bullshit.
  

       Most people reject their own intuition because that's what society has taught them to do.
...shamed them into rejecting actually.
  

       I reject their shaming and have kept my intuition intact.
Getting thrown into and then emerging from shit pits smelling like a rose is my forte, and if this isn't pandemic isn't a shit flinging fest then I don't know what is.
  

       [zen_tom]:   

       iv. lack of vitamin D.
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       //i) Covid is real//   

       Of course Covid is real, it killed an extra 10% of people last year.   

       It's difficult to know what is really going on in India, but does it sound like something has spread like wildfire though some dense communities ?   

       //shortages of oxygen, beds//   

       The NHS struggle every winter as winter is how the NHS calibrates the amount of stuff it needs. Similarly crematoriums used to a certain rate of death can easily get overwhelmed. In today's world, most businesses are fine tuned to run at 99% capacity and rely on overtime to cope with overruns. We are living in a very brittle world.   

       //ivermectin//   

       Sorry could resist adding it. Saw a talk yesterday which mention they were heavily using ivermectin in India. It does sound like a miracle preventative and treatment for covid, and apparently long covid.   

       It works so well because ivermectin tends to concentrate in the lungs, just like covid, so its practically a targeted therapy. Off-label use ? Well many medications have known side effects because they are blunderbusses. One man's side effect is another man's therapy, or in this case Covids worst enemy.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       Your intuition has led you down some very wrong roads recently, 2f. It led you to believe that you're a tetrachromate and that fluoride is some weird conspiracy. Both are false.   

       "Intuition" is what Trumpers claim tells them that the election was stolen. It's all b.s.   

       Hospitals aren't run at 99% of capacity. That's just grasping at straws.
RayfordSteele, Apr 26 2021
  

       oh my god he's got an intuition, boys RUUUN!!!!   

       //Most people reject their own intuition because that's what society has taught them to do.//   

       I see the development of science as the process of learning to keep an eye on one's intuition at all times. Because it's a pernicious, perfidious bastard.   

       //Of course Covid is real, it killed an extra 10% of people last year.//   

       So apparently, current estimates are that about one person in 50 has been infected. If the remaining 49 were all infected, what sort of death rate would we expect?
A conservative estimate is easy - 10%*49=490%
So about an additional five-fold increase of the death-rate, if it all happened within one year. If we removed all restrictions (and no-one was protected through vaccination) that would probably be the case.
Maybe we can live with that, right?
  

       Now, suppose the bulk of those infections happened over a short period. If healthcare is saturated, and there are insufficient ventilators, oxygen, medicine, doctors, nurses etc - what would be a reasonable estimate then?   

       I've done a fairly significant amount of research in this thread, including questions you've asked of me. I'd very much like to see you investigate that and try to work out a reasonable answer.
Loris, Apr 26 2021
  

       //Your intuition has led you down some very wrong roads recently, 2f. It led you to believe that you're a tetrachromate and that fluoride is some weird conspiracy. Both are false.//   

       Not true. Acing a test designed to determine if someone is a tetrachromat over and over again made me think that, not intuition. I didn't even know what 'tetrachromat' meant, just that the test said I was one.   

       I see far beyond the range of colours which human males are supposed to be able to distinguish between.   

       Fluoride collects within the pineal gland causing pre-calcification at an early age.
This calcification causes people to no longer regulate their melatonin/ serotonin/ tryptophan/ dimethyltripitamine cycles, which in turn causes depression, anxiety, and an inability to heal properly. You get sick and you die young.
  

       It's evil shit and yes I will admit that I was led to that information intuitively and stand by my words that our dentists and doctors not being taught about the hazards of that crap is a huge conspiracy.   

       That Pineal gland calcification was not mentioned once during the fluoride debunking seems to be alright with the brainwashed masses.   

       Anything else my intuition has led me astray on?..   

       //I'd very much like to see you investigate that and try to work out a reasonable answer.//   

       To start with there is an unknown mechanism in the immune system that rejects e.g. coronavirus before even producing anti-bodies. It's why many kids are hardly affected and don't transmit. So 1 in 50 is probably a gross underestimate. I've also seen estimates of e.g. 50% cross-immunity at the start of the pandemic.   

       In London, the virus swept through and cases went very low very early - you could argue London had herd immunity before the vaccines.   

       //10%*49=490%//   

       In that we are talking deaths, once the frailest have died, it becomes harder and harder to be killed by a mild disease. So assuming exposure has been higher than anticipated e.g. during the first PCR untested wave, we could be getting up to 90% of people having already been exposed or had corona. Let's face it, the infection rate has gone down and you're not telling me people haven't been privately partying ;)   

       All told, and bearing in mind the first few months without lockdown and testing was probably the bulk of the epidemic, I'm going to say we're going to lose an extra few percent during winter for the next few years.   

       I'm not going to stick a precise number on it, but just point out that 490% extra deaths would have been ridiculously over-simplistic and pessimistic.   

       //iv. lack of vitamin D.//   

       Just for [a1]. India is a country with virtually everyone* being deficient in Vitamin D. Very much like Italy they have a culture that avoids the sun. [link]   

       [edit: my legal team has just informed me I cannot use that term and have suggested I use 'large majority' instead.]
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       Anyone up for a piss-up sometime in late June in London? I'll have had both Covid vaccinations by then. The hospitals won't be busy. If we do get hog-whimperingly drunk and fall down a hole or something, there's an excellent chance that the medical care will be focused on our care and won't be bothered with all this Covid nonsense.
DenholmRicshaw, Apr 26 2021
  

       Just for [bigsleep] - you're still a fucking moron, and boring too.
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       //Just for [bigsleep] - you're still a fucking moron, and boring too.//   

       That was a bit unnecessary [a1].
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       // unnecessary //   

       Maybe - but we (me and several others) tried everything else by way of reason and debate and you're not budging, right? What else is there to do but call you what you are?   

       I usually leave this kind of thing to doctorremulac3 (he has such a way with words) - but if the shoe fits, shove it up your ass.
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       //To start with there is an unknown mechanism in the immune system that rejects e.g. coronavirus before even producing anti-bodies. It's why many kids are hardly affected and don't transmit. So 1 in 50 is probably a gross underestimate. I've also seen estimates of e.g. 50% cross-immunity at the start of the pandemic.//   

       Estimates of total infections do vary, and quite significantly. I wouldn't have minded if you'd chosen a different estimate, if you'd justified it.
I /do/ mind you handwaving it away.
  

       //In that we are talking deaths, once the frailest have died, it becomes harder and harder to be killed by a mild disease.//   

       Your claim is basically that the surviving 'frailest' who apparently haven't been exposed to coronavirus - actually have been, but they fought it off without anyone noticing, due to their magnificently ultra-powerful immune systems having extra secret functions hidden from all science.
It's... audacious.
  

       //I'm not going to stick a precise number on it, but just point out that 490% extra deaths would have been ridiculously over-simplistic and pessimistic.//   

       It would have been nice of you to make some sort of good-faith attempt.
You could have invoked anything - all those medical gains the world has fought for up to now. But no, you couldn't be fucking bothered.
Loris, Apr 26 2021
  

       //Estimates of total infections do vary, and quite significantly.//   

       So you're admitting your figure is total BS. I might have a look again tomorrow, but there really isn't much precise data, particularly on the mysterious kid immunity thing.   

       //Your claim is basically that the surviving 'frailest'//   

       No that is not my claim. We know that survivability is a spectrum with the frailest and oldest at one end. The more you cut into the frail end, the survivability goes up. For example, if corona killed everyone over 30 then the survivability would almost be 100%. I think that's a reasonable claim, especially since end of life care grows exponentially in the last year of life.   

       //tried everything else by way of reason and debate and you're not budging, right//   

       What we have here is mostly opinion. Give me a relevant fact and I'll discuss it (again). Just one point.   

       My overarching point again - "Covid is real but the death rate is not significantly higher than a bad flu season and certainly doesn't justify long lockdowns, mandatory vaccines or medical ID cards to get into venues."
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       // What we have here is mostly opinion. //   

       My opinion is that you're a fucking moron, reinforced by your remarks here (and every other discussion you've tried to fill you your conspiracy bullshit). At least some of the other commenters (even the ones I disagree with) are sometimes entertaining - you're just boring.   

       Only my opinion, of course, unless someone happens to agree with me.
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       //Only my opinion, of course, unless someone happens to agree with me.//   

       What does it become if someone agrees with you ?
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       //So you're admitting your figure is total BS.//   

       No. It's one of a number of existing estimates.
Do some fucking research.
Loris, Apr 26 2021
  

       // What does it become if someone agrees with you ? //   

       Then it's one of those things that "some people say." Clearly a powerful argument for some though I wouldn't rely on it too heavily myself.   

       Hey Loris, RayfordSteele, Auscan531, anyone else? What's your opinion of bigsleep's ... um ... thought processes, research, and methods of presentation?
a1, Apr 26 2021
  

       Pre-existing immunity [link].   

       [Loris] I'm not saying either one of us is linking to something totally precise or factual, but the truth lies someone inbetween, *maybe*.   

       I'm sure as corona dwindles and life returns to normal there will be an increasing number of studies showing that an overly cautious approach has resulted in more deaths (cancers, neglected alzheimers patients, stress and depression).   

       I don't want to argue about that now. Let's let 2 years pass.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       That's a good idea, [bigs]; it'll let us compare three different number sequences, namely, (1) overall mortality by year in countries with prompt, effective lockdowns, (2) overall mortality by year in countries with patchy and widely sabotaged lockdowns and (3) overall mortality by year in countries which couldn't really afford to lock down at all (such as India and Brazil). Do you agree that such a comparison (whatever it shows, once the numbers are in) would be significant?
pertinax, Apr 26 2021
  

       //What does it become if someone agrees with you ?//   

       It becomes two people's opinion, obviously.   

       //Hey Loris, RayfordSteele, Auscan531, anyone else? What's your opinion of bigsleep's ... um ... thought processes, research, and methods of presentation?//   

       If I had to be diplomatic, I would say that I couldn't fault their tenacity, and their performance has a professionalism worthy of Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf.   

       I admit I struggle to see the logic of favouring vitamin D as a panacea, on the basis of an outlying positive low quality trial with 76 participants[1], while rejecting vaccines for being "not fully tested"[*] (in all cases tested on more than 20,000 recipients [2]), but the confidence with which these assertions are made is really something you don't see every day.   

       I mean, just today, and completely unprompted, he brought up ivermectin as a "miracle preventative and treatment for covid". Now I'm not saying this drug definitely won't be found to have any effect at all, but since he remains unimpressed by Dexamethasone [3], he must assign it a strong effect indeed. Which is bold when a metareview of 16 small randomised clinical trials rated any beneficial effect as being of “very low certainty”[4], which I would describe as nature's way of telling you that the effect is minimal at best.   

       I hope this clarifies my opinion sufficiently.
I think I will attempt to take this opportunity to take my leave from this thread.
  

         

       [1] Source - BMJ article online "Vitamin D and covid-19"   

       [2] Source - my NHS vaccination leaflet   

       [3] which reportedly cuts the chance of dying on ventilation by a third, and for patients on oxygen prevents one death in five. Source -BBC article, "Covid: The London bus trip that saved maybe a million lives"   

       [4] Source - who.int website article "WHO advises that ivermectin only be used to treat COVID-19 within clinical trials"   

       [*] edit - quote fixed. Previously was "untested shit" (-2 fries shy of a happy meal).
Loris, Apr 26 2021
  

       //Do you agree that such a comparison (whatever it shows, once the numbers are in) would be significant?//   

       Unfortunately not. Like all studies its hard to filter out other effects. There is already a strong correlation between covid mortality and Vitamin D levels. Food fortification is a national policy so comparing different countries is hard. Likewise some countries made huge cock-ups with care homes early on. Sweden for example had a looser lockdown (mostly voluntary), but made the same mistakes with care homes as the UK and New York. The Nordics also tend to eat a lot of oily Vitamin D and Omega 3 rich herring for some reason. Dirty bastards.   

       We will know for example, the death rates due to cancer over the next 5 years, but even then there as some promising new cancer therapies so rates could drop and we'd be non-the-wiser.   

       // he remains unimpressed by Dexamethasone//   

       [Loris] You are better than this. We haven't discussed this at all. And you seem to be confusing things I and [2fries] have said.   

       I'm all in favour of using whatever therapeutics. The older, more tested and cheaper the better especially for countries like India. In that respect ivermectin is getting close to a miracle (that it exists).   

       And the vaccines were / are untested. (backing up a comment from [2 fries].) Larger trials involving frontline workers only concluded in March 2021. Long term effects like the hidden lizard DNA starting to manifest in the unborn, may only become clear in the coming 9 months.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       Slight aside:
Indian hospitals are "running out of oxygen".
Considering that the atmosphere conveniently provides a nice 21% oxygen everywhere, I presume that producing "medical grade" oxygen is a difficult thing to do. The question is, why? Perhaps hospitals should have on-site oxygen production as a matter of course; unless it really is exceptionally hard...
neutrinos_shadow, Apr 26 2021
  

       //I presume that producing "medical grade" oxygen is a difficult thing to do//   

       I saw one bloke on the news saying "If I can make my own then why can't the government make more ?" Just needs a car battery and a few containers, or plastic bags even.   

       When I was running short of breath when I got it, I gave in and used my partners asthma inhaler which was all I needed. From very laboured breathing and inability to move to incredible breathing in minutes. Inhalers are quite cheap and probably very safe, so if you're about to die its worth a shot.
bigsleep, Apr 26 2021
  

       [dexamethasone] //We haven't discussed this at all.//   

       We have. Well, I brought it up twice in the Tarantino thread, once explicitly vs Vitamin D, you totally blanked it the first time, and acknowledged the trial in a single sentence the second time, before bigging up vitamin D /again/ and scaremongering about vaccines.   

       //And you seem to be confusing things I and [2fries] have said.//   

       Apologies for that. I've changed the quote to a phrase you used, which is similar in effect if not tone.   

         

       //Considering that the atmosphere conveniently provides a nice 21% oxygen everywhere, I presume that producing "medical grade" oxygen is a difficult thing to do.//   

       It's not enormously hard, but you need to store it, you need to not run out, and you need to not present a fire hazard.
Oxygen concentrators (which just remove nitrogen from air) are good enough for some purposes.
  

       //When I was running short of breath when I got it, I gave in and used my partners asthma inhaler which was all I needed.//
I saw something which suggested that asthma inhalers were thought to be useful and were in the process of getting recognised as suitable for convalescence and supplied for this purpose by the NHS. Should be more information online.
  

         

       But I was trying to leave this thread, I only came back to see responses and to fix my error.
Loris, Apr 27 2021
  

       I would just like to go on record as having said that these vaccines are untested shit not [bigs].   

       By that I mean that they have been pushed through too quickly using public fear mongering to force it past FDA or any other rules.   

       As for deriding intuition... you guys do know that every one of the actual inventions I've posted here as well as the ones tucked away in my head were all intuited right?   

       That a tornado can be turned into a vortex ring.
That a gyroscope can be controlled from the inside using oscillation.
That an Archimedes screw could be internally ballasted and then steered using gyroscopic precession.
How I know how to make a lightning bolt from thin air.
That the friggin Universe is spinning,
...and why the dinosaurs died, (yet to be proven and was deleted as a theory rather than invention)
  

       All of it.   

       "Popped" into my head...   

       ...and 'then' I learned the words to explain the things I know without having been taught.   

       All of it!   

       Yet I do not exist in your world. Like I've said before;   

       I'm the fucking Easter Bunny.   

       2_fries, you might be the Easter Bunny, you might be delusional - but at least you’re creative and fun. More than I would say for your partner in crime here.
a1, Apr 27 2021
  

       [a1] Its fine. Some people are more social animals and more susceptible to mass hysteria, some are more utilitarian and logical. Guess who designs the phones.
bigsleep, Apr 27 2021
  

       As far as I can tell he's trying to have a rational conversation and having shit flung at him.   

       I get that everyone has an opinion, but historically speaking, the majority has almost always been wrong.   

       That's why I'm so damned fringe.   

       Torches and pitchforks are wrong, m'kay?   

       And crazy theories are fine, until you start running a country by them and appear on tv saying things like "Hands, Space, Face, Bumsidaisy!" or other pantomime expressions.
bigsleep, Apr 27 2021
  

       You just annoed before I did [bigsleep]. My comment was directed at [a1].   

       You and I seem to be the one's everyone has decided to vote off the island for having disparate views.   

       Sorry if I'm not the castaway you'd have chosen...   

       ...but did you know that if you pack sugar in a coconut shell and bury it for six months it will turn into rum?   

       We'll be fine.   

       //little sceptical bone everyone is born with//   

       We're all sceptical, [bigs], just not about the same things.
pertinax, Apr 27 2021
  

       //Most people still don't equate Critical (Race) Theory (e.g. BLM) with Marxism//

bigsleep, you say that like it has some sort of importance. Examining the status quo to try & eliminate racial bias seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do, regardless of where the idea originated (unless you are a dyed-in-the-wool racist, that is). Personally, I think religion is bullshit but that doesn't mean that 'love thy neighbour' isn't a pretty good philosophy for life. Take a chill pill & criticise the ideas rather than their origin.
DrBob, Apr 27 2021
  

       //criticise the idea//   

       Kind of strayed off the point there. [edited]
bigsleep, Apr 27 2021
  

       a1, I side with Loris and my opinion hasn't changed about big's majoring in the minors and taking exceptions for his own logic that he won't allow anyone else the privelege of. That's pretty clear. Don't think I see any value in poking around it more. The horse died awhile back.   

       And 2f, I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Sorry. I do believe in the corruption of social spaces like this one when they are taken over by dumb argumentation threads that refuse to die. When I was 9ish I had dreamed up my own explanation for zeno's paradox, and had some good working definitions for comparing sizes of infinite sets, countable, uncountable, and such long before I was ever exposed to them or to L'Hopital's rule. Intuition. But sometimes my intuition was incorrect, and demonstrably so.
RayfordSteele, Apr 27 2021
  

       //majoring in the minors//   

       Well there's some looking into the details. I'm personally convinced Vitamin D will be taken more seriously; recommended daily intake will be raised and most people will be recommended to take some. We'll see how that pans out in the future.   

       It's also worth pointing out that although some points are contentious, many are not. So if A exists and I raise B that doesn't necessarily deny the existence of A. Likewise if I don't mention C then I have not stated an opinion on C and do not deny that either.
bigsleep, Apr 27 2021
  

       //I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Sorry.//   

       Don't be sorry. Nobody does, that was my point.   

       // But sometimes my intuition was incorrect, and demonstrably so.//   

       Well, my intuition is fine tuned as I was forced to rely on it for survival, and I am still waiting for its incorrectness to be demonstrated. Hopefully this will be the time.   

       I don't like censorship. Nobody is forced to click on this thread.   

       New Delhi | Crematories are so full of bodies, it’s as if a war just happened. Fires burn around the clock. Many places are holding mass cremations, dozens at a time, and at night, in certain areas of New Delhi, the sky glows.   

       Sickness and death are everywhere. Dozens of houses in my neighbourhood have sick people. One of my colleagues is sick. One of my son’s teachers is sick. The neighbour two doors down, to the right of us: sick. Two doors to the left: sick. “I have no idea how I got it,” said a good friend who is now in the hospital. “You catch just a whiff of this...” and then his voice trailed off, too sick to finish.   

       He barely got a bed. And the medicine his doctors say he needs is nowhere to be found in India.   

       New Delhi, India’s sprawling capital of 20 million, is suffering a calamitous surge. A few days ago, the positivity rate hit a staggering 36 per cent — meaning more than one out of three people tested were infected. A month ago, it was less than 3 per cent.   

       The infections have spread so fast that hospitals have been completely swamped. People are turned away by the thousands. Medicine is running out. So is lifesaving oxygen. The sick have been left stranded in interminable lines at hospital gates or at home, literally gasping for air.   

       - New York Times Delhi Bureau Chief.   

       You guys should ring India and explain it's not much worse than the cold. I'm sure they'll be comforted.
AusCan531, Apr 28 2021
  

       //Dozens of houses in my neighbourhood have sick people//   

       Where does this come from ? I thought you were in Aus ? [edit: Ok. The linked opinion piece from the NYT via the Australian Financial Review.]   

       Just a note of caution here. If you are getting this stuff from the mainstream media it might not be as it seems. CNN have been caught on tape admitting just how much they distort news, and they are not unique in that.   

       Alternatively it could be the deadlier "2nd virus" that was rumoured.   

       We need actual figures before making judgement. Scare stories are so easily manufactured. For example a crematorium near the main hospital could well be overwhelmed, but those in the outskirts away from the hospitals are getting less 'business'. Only a survey of all crematoria in the New Delhi region would show an accurate picture.   

       The image of bodies being burned in a car park at night may seem spectacular and unusual, but in India its par for the course. Public pyres are common.
bigsleep, Apr 28 2021
  

       //criticise the ideas rather than their origin//   

       Now, on *this* point (which has nothing to do with covid), I take [bigsleep]'s side, to the extent that I think it *is* important to understand where ideas come from, and the history of the idea of racism (as distinct from the history of racism itself) is ... quite interesting. But that has nothing to do with this thread. Perhaps it needs another thread.
pertinax, Apr 28 2021
  

       It certainly deserves its own thread... but, this thread has nothing better going for it.
As a Canadian, (we still have racists here but they are a minority), we have integrated with so many cultures that racism seems... kind of wtf? It boils down to;
Are you a decent human?
Do you show up for work?
Can I trust you with my kids? Can I trust you with my shit?
Yes?
  

       Then we good. Want to grab a beer after work?   

       How does the history of racism differ from the history of the 'idea' of racism?
One obviously preceded the other.
  

       I just don't get it. I have one prejudice. It's against assholes.
They come in all shapes sizes and colours and I admit to being prejudiced against them all.
  

       Everybody else is welcome for dinner.   

       Re: India. Looking at the Worldometer graphs [link], you can see the rapid infection rate that possibly is flattening out right at the end. 360,000 new cases per day ! That's a lot. It's also worth noting the graph below that, which shows an 8 day recovery from positive test.   

       If you divide daily deaths by daily recovered you get -   

       3285 / 262362 = 1.25% mortality rate. No Comment.   

       Now lets look at flu in India. 650 000 flu deaths globally. In India 1366 / 7674 * 650000 = 0.18 * 650000 = 117000 flu deaths per year in India (with the very crude stats). In comparison total corona deaths in India has just hit 200,000. No Comment.   

       Going back to cases -   

       //A few days ago, the positivity rate hit a staggering 36 per cent — meaning more than one out of three people tested were infected.//   

       It doesn't mean that. It means 36% tested positive i.e. were infectious, not infectious and shedding post infection or were just carrying around broken parts of virus DNA after having been e.g. standing near an airconditioning outlet.   

       Total cases per 100,000 population -
India : 13,000
US : 99,000
UK : 65,000
  

       Peak daily infection rate per 100,000-
UK : 100 (Jan 8 2021)
India : 27 (Apr 27 2021)
  

       Bit of context for you.
bigsleep, Apr 28 2021
  

       Yep. A real comfort.
AusCan531, Apr 28 2021
  

       If the New York Times has it substantially wrong there's an entire country that can correct them, bigs.
RayfordSteele, Apr 28 2021
  

       [Loris] You're right about the naming use. I saw it used in the context of shedding the last broken bits of virus from your system e.g. you beat covid and are coughing up non-infectious junk. That phase can go on for weeks.   

       Another video popped into my feed just now. See cardiologist [link]. I promise this isn't me. I'm an atheist, but about everything else (in the video) I agree 100%, and I don't say that a lot. Lot's of studies quoted.
bigsleep, Apr 28 2021
  

       //Another video popped into my feed//   

       Wait: I thought you were mistrustful of the technocracy (such as Google) manipulating us with algorithms (such as the one which determines our youtube feed)?
pertinax, Apr 29 2021
  

       Would a defining datum point be whether a person is put on ventilation/oxygen or in india's case put in the queue. How many flu deaths have the ventilation/oxygen, acute hospital treatment component? It of course about acute illness not just the ganging up of natural mortality.
wjt, May 01 2021
  

       It's about the truth regarding numbers. The stats can be spin-doctored any way you want... if you can afford it.   

       Sad but true.   

       //ventilation/oxygen, acute hospital treatment component//   

       I'm not saying any great percentage of serious illness is as a result of the following, but there are 2 methods of worse outcomes with a background of fear campaigns and lockdowns.   

       1) Fear of disease, loss of income, death, isolation cause stress which is known to adversely affect the immune system.   

       2) Thinking that covid is automatically fatal when you get it, leads to hyperventilation and dyspnea - anxiety led shortness of breath which can move some people into a state that requires critical care. As opposed to being pretty chilled thinking 'oh its just the flu, I'll get over it'.   

       So in some respect the media scare stories are self-fulfilling i.e. Fear causes death. I wonder if lawsuits will be brought over that.
bigsleep, May 01 2021
  

       That doesn't make sense in the Indian case, [bigs], because, in India, the government is trying to play down and minimise the problem, not to exaggerate it. They've gone do far as to make Twitter take down tweets on the subject which they regarded as alarmist.
pertinax, May 01 2021
  

       That would seem like a sensible approach in India, but there is global social media to fill the fear gap. Nobody can say the UK media and government didn't try to spread fear. Comparing covid to natural causes of death and quantifying it would have reduced fear dramatically.   

       *sigh* So many old and young suffered alone for no reason. Next up: spending trillions (i.e. burning trillions of oil and releasing billions of tons of CO2) to construct a way out of climate change as a cover for the introduction of 'communism light'. And that to avoid hyperinflation as a recovery for printing so much money over the last couple of years.   

       I really hope people can draw a line somewhere and be prepared to protest as soon as that line is crossed.
bigsleep, May 01 2021
  

       A couple of days ago a really good overview video came out. It has BBC production qualities and you can share it around. Two [link]s to it above, one YouTube and one Bitchute.   

       Dr. John Lee is a professor of pathology (study of disease) and talks calmly about what was done right and wrong.
bigsleep, May 05 2021
  

       //A few years later I found The Onion was doing it far better than I could have hoped.//   

       For that is our way.
oniony, May 05 2021
  

       Is the title a typo (Carona -> Corona) or a pun that I'm missing?
jutta, May 05 2021
  

       It's a take on the My Sharona song.
RayfordSteele, May 05 2021
  

       Oh! Of course! Duh. For some reason I've always heard this as ShErona rather than ShArona, but you're right. Thanks, glad I asked.
jutta, May 06 2021
  

       Thank you for the Lee video, [bigsleep]. He seems very reasonable.   

       I note that he is pro- vaccination, and he does *not* allege that the virus is a hoax.   

       What he alleges is that politicians and their advisors made some bad decisions, motivated by the desire to be seen to have done something, but based on limited information. I'm quite sure that's true. The main weakness of the video is that, understandably, he focuses closely on the British experience, and his account of why things turned out so much better in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and South Korea is a bit hand- wavy and unconvincing (though I can't rule out that it *might* be true).
pertinax, May 06 2021
  

       I wish there was a better way to talk about this topic, but to do it justice I think I would need to compile 500 pages of mainstream news, alternative news, and questionable memes, then ferment that information into a map of possible interpretations of what's been going on during the past ~25 years, then multiply that mess by the range of interpretations of how things should be, then try to distill all that into a useful perspective on what people should be doing in the present circumstances. A big and dubious project.   

       I'm just saying that some self sustaining Mars colonies would help control the spread of the virus because of the extreme social distancing.
sninctown, May 06 2021
  

       //A big and dubious project.//   

       Excellent. What are we waiting for?
pertinax, May 06 2021
  

       Boil it down to the science. Forget all the rest.
RayfordSteele, May 06 2021
  

       Speaking of science. I went down the rabbit hole looking at airborne virus infection, and there are only two actual trials conducted during the 1918 flu pandemic. Both exposed a large number of prisoners to patients with the flu e.g. being coughed on or mucus being rubbed in their eyeballs. Not one caught the flu.   

       Those are the only actual studies i.e. there is no proof you can catch e.g. coronavirus from a cough.   

       I think the trials were faulty, but having to go back that far to even get a shred of evidence. Wow.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       That's all you could find on airborne transmission of diseases? Missed Riley's work on TB? <link>. Or were you only looking for experiments from 1918? See also linked Lancet article laying out several lines of evidence for airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2.   

       I mean sure, Johns Hopkins and The Lancet may not be as reliable as Youtube / Twitter / TikTok , but some people still trust them, somehow...
a1, May 06 2021
  

       Science is neato, but Science can't tell me what I am (in the sense of why I have conscious awareness at all, specifically why I have the experience of the smell of coffee grounds), let alone tell me what I should be (in the sense of what is best to do, specifically how much coffee I should drink today). Life is full of puzzling unknowns such as this one.
sninctown, May 06 2021
  

       The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet.
a1, May 06 2021
  

       So... four cups of coffee?
sninctown, May 06 2021
  

       Yes, before I leave the house in the morning. After that I don't count them.
a1, May 06 2021
  

       //all you could find on airborne transmission of diseases//   

       I mentioned viruses. In particular flu and coronaviruses.   

       //Lancet article//
//"Ninth, no study to our knowledge has provided strong or consistent evidence to refute the hypothesis of airborne SARS-CoV-2 transmission.""//
  

       10 speculative reasons. No actual controlled study.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       Why not four and a half cups of coffee?
sninctown, May 06 2021
  

       There is admittedly some space between "evidence" and "controlled studies" - but contrary to your earlier remark that there wasn't even a "shred" of evidence, the Lancet article outlined extensive, well-sourced evidence. And I give more weight to their research (and conclusion, quoted below) than to any of your youtube "discoveries" posted thus far.   

       // In conclusion, we propose that it is a scientific error to use lack of direct evidence of SARS-CoV-2 in some air samples to cast doubt on airborne transmission while overlooking the quality and strength of the overall evidence base. There is consistent, strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 spreads by airborne transmission. Although other routes can contribute, we believe that the airborne route is likely to be dominant. //
a1, May 06 2021
  

       // why not four and a half cups of coffee? // Because the fifth cup would be half empty, of course!
a1, May 06 2021
  

       //"Ninth, no study to our knowledge has provided strong or consistent evidence to refute the hypothesis of airborne SARS-CoV-2 transmission."//   

       No study to our knowledge has provided strong or consistent evidence to refute the hypothesis of airborne pigs.   

       No study to our knowledge has provided strong or consistent evidence to refute the hypothesis of trousers spontaneously turning into jam.   

       Oh yes. Hard evidence. What you are looking at there is 'evidential' back-fill to save some peoples careers.   

       // In conclusion, we propose ...//   

       Read that carefully. 'Propose', 'likely', 'we believe'. It's not science, its propaganda.   

       //I think the trials were faulty//   

       You skipped right over that, but obviously they didn't screen the prisoners for prior exposure; they couldn't. In a dense prison its likely that all were exposed prior to the experiment.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       Do you dispute any or all of the evidence (summarized in the article, detailed in the footnotes)?
a1, May 06 2021
  

       //Do you dispute any or all of the evidence//   

       Well obviously some are for magazine articles so those don't count. Some are links to editorials, comments and personal views. Seems to me the majority are opinion pieces and again, not proper studies. I don't have the subscriptions to check them all.   

       Doesn't it tip you off that the language is not scientific and that most references are hand-waving to people of similar viewpoints ?   

       Science usually has data, graphs and statistics to form a hypothesis. And even those you can sometimes destroy by finding huge holes in the experiment design.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       That's why youtube is so cool, right? You don't need to pay for anything for it - not even an expenditure of thinking!   

       You can stick to the opinion pieces you want to believe, I just provided the alternate "propaganda" links for others who might be interested.
a1, May 06 2021
  

       // I just provided the alternate "propaganda" links//   

       Well that's just it. You'd think there would be hard science from decades ago proving the airborne viruses cause infection, but as you say, you have found a 10 point propaganda list from this year that proves nothing.   

       If there were any proof that would be point 1) All other coronaviruses have been proven to be airborne transmissible. But that point is omitted, because for previous viruses and coronaviruses the same proof has been conspicuously absent.   

       Now. I personally am inclined to believe coronavirus is an airborne infection, but putting my [Loris] hat on for a bit, there is no actual proof.   

       It could be, that all virus particles really are, is a catalyst for ill-health to be found. It's no secret that there is rising ill health and obesity, and unfortunately some people are exposed to more toxins than others, mainly through diet.   

       Hippocrates: "all diseases begin in the gut"   

       Modern restatement about cancer link to gut bacteria [link]. Many sources for that, but in a nutshell, your gut bacteria take food and make some essential building blocks so if you get the wrong sort of bacteria or wipe them all out completely, your immune system suffers and you get e.g. cancer.   

       "In 2010 Monsanto was awarded a patent for glyphosate as an antibiotic."   

       So systemic antibiotics to kill essential gut bacteria for all !
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       But there’s a lot more research available than I (or even you) post here. Some of it better reasoned than others. On the whole, I find the articles you link and your “could be” suppositions to be unconvincing.
a1, May 06 2021
  

       //But there’s a lot more research available than I (or even you) post here.//   

       Even though I was playing devils advocate on the airborne infection, quite a few people have testified after going though all the available research that there is just no proof.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       //That's why youtube is so cool, right//   

       If you haven't given alternate media a try, now would be a good time as youtube is booting so many content creators to turn it into another MSM channel. You can try some channels on YouTube and go the extra effort to other platforms and subscriptions. Just like you've done here you can find evidence to the contrary by googling if you are worried.   

       The gut bacteria cancer link I saw in a new age piece about modern agriculture, but that and a few other points raised pass all scrutiny.   

       You could try [link] "What I've Learned". The most recent debunks the nonsense "One beefburger takes thousands of litres of water to make". About time I heard that.
bigsleep, May 06 2021
  

       Or not.
a1, May 07 2021
  

       I'm hoping this will be a transient appearance, but I'm not having my hat invoked without some sort of response.   

       //Speaking of science. I went down the rabbit hole looking at airborne virus infection, and there are only two actual trials conducted during the 1918 flu pandemic. Both exposed a large number of prisoners to patients with the flu e.g. being coughed on or mucus being rubbed in their eyeballs. Not one caught the flu.
Those are the only actual studies i.e. there is no proof you can catch e.g. coronavirus from a cough.//
  

       As a1 asked above, what exactly are you trying to prove?
Trials on 1918 flu might say something about /that/ virus, but they're probably not all that relevant to covid-19.
  

       If you're looking very specifically for 'proof' that the virus which causes covid-19 (SARS-CoV-2) can be transmitted through air, you might have to wait, because doing 'bullet-proof' science is in-and-of itself hard, and there are additional legal issues with doing experiments if that involves animals, particularly if it involves diseases, and extra-especially if it involves deliberately infecting humans with potentially harmful pathogens.
I believe there were plans for an experiment which deliberately exposed healthy young individuals, but I don't know what came of that, and it may not have been looking at exposure route.
  

       In the modern era, in normal times expsure experiments are practically impossible to do, and the benefit often very limited, so I'm not surprised there arn't many.
Science just doesn't work how you think. It doesn't prove things, at least, certainly not in the mathematical sense.
Instead, it disproves things. That might sound like a meaningless distinction, but it's pretty fundamental. If, for example, there is some widely believed explanation for how something happens, and you don't believe that, it's up to you (the scientist) to convincingly demonstrate that the existing model is wrong. If other scientists are of the opinion that an existing model is plausible and sufficient, it's not required of them to prove it to you. In an ideal world, they merely have to look at your evidence to the contrary with an open mind (in practice, this is easy to fail at).
  

       If you're okay with a demonstration of airborne transmission of some sort of virus, ideally in any mammal, google scholar is your friend - there's more scientific reports than you could possibly read. For example, at random I found something on blue ear disease in pigs : Influence of isolate pathogenicity on the aerosol transmission of Porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome virus (2007) Cho JG, Deen J, Dee SA.
This paper is not so much concerned with whether airborne transmission is possible - that's already very well understood. It's looking at differences in airborne transmissibility of different strains, so the experiment is carefully set up to allow only the airborne route of transmission.
  

         

       //"In 2010 Monsanto was awarded a patent for glyphosate as an antibiotic."//   

       Apparently true, although according to a review I'm looking at "At this stage, it is currently not clear whether glyphosate has an effect on the mammalian gut microbiome, especially at environmentally relevant levels of exposure."   

       To be fair, glyphosate is over an order of magnitude less acutely toxic than vitamin D (LD50 in rats is something like a 14th). Vitamin D itself is something like a tenth as toxic as lead.   

         

       I need to get on with other things now, so this isn't an exhaustive response to everything.
Loris, May 07 2021
  

       Interesting trial for you [Loris]   

       "Impact of two oral doses of 100,000 IU of vitamin D3 in preschoolers with viral-induced asthma" [link]
bigsleep, May 07 2021
  
      
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