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Have an stationary outer cylinder, magnetically supported by a spinning inner cylinder, supported by centrifugal force. Increase the diameter until it weighs less than air. Make it long enough to balance any extra weight needed at the ends. There may be something more elegant to do at the ends, but that
will do.
This operates a bit like a gas-filled (helium or hot air) balloon, because in those, molecules bounce off the wall, and in this idea the spinning cylinder pushes off the wall.
Smoke ring bubbles
Toroidal_20bubbles
This sort of touches on the same ground, if you consider the toroid is spinning on itself. [Ling, Dec 22 2007]
Maglev trains
http://en.wikipedia...g/wiki/Maglev_train
Article on maglev trains. The electrodynamic suspension and Inductrack are what I was thinking of [caspian, Dec 27 2007]
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So instead of using a lighter than air gas and a light flexible envelope, you use a low pressure gas and a rigid envelope. You support the sides of the rigid cylindrical envelope by magnetic repulsion of a smaller cylinder which is held rigid by centrifugal force. |
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Hmmm. It does seem halfbaked...and without doing the math I can't say definitively that it won't work, but that is where my money would go. The whole magnetic support thing is too heavy, though I see it is necessary to avoid drag.
The ends are and issue, and would have to be rigid enough to support the pressure. I guess you could use a long thin coaxial tubes or some kind of tapering at the ends. |
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I will Bun(+) you for making me think, but correct the spelling in the title, the sharks are coming. |
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Ignoring the ends for the moment, why not spin a cylinder up 'til you have 14psi centrifugal force then evacuate gas from it ? or is that what you said (and where does the magnetism come in). |
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Are you spinning this with magic? |
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Lighter then air is always simple with unlimited energy and weightless engines. |
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[edit] clipped nonsense about baffles after rereading idea. |
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// Stationary outer cylinder, magnetically supported by a spinning inner cylinder. // Given just the right set of conditions, you can suspend something inside a magnetic field, and make it stable. You don't get a stable equilibrium for something perched on the outside of a magnetic field, unless it has a magnetic field of its own, in which case this becomes a generator. The drag will be about the same as if it were in physical contact. |
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As [FlyingToaster] suggests, a simple spun cylinder would accomplish as much and be lighter. |
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The bit with the magnetic field is just "If I make it complicated enough, Ma Nature will lose track and I can get away with something." Often suggested, but it does not ever work. |
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Oh, and be careful that you're not spotted building this..... the term "gas centrifuge" tends to attract large amounts of unwelcome attention and possible pre-emptive strikes. |
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As the diameter of the outer tube increases, the magnetic force needed to support it also increases - exponentially (right?). One would presume these greater forces would require a heavier inner cylinder, which would require a bigger outer cylinder. |
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I could envision doing this with Roman technology. Lodestones would be used, and the inner cylinder spun up to speed using a series of spoked wooden gears, the largest slowly turned about by sweating, loincloth-clad slaves. |
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The idea of spinning a cylindrical envelope
to support the walls against a vacuum is
ingenious! |
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Yes, I agree. I like new uses for centrifugal force. Croissant for creativity. |
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Has anyone done the calculations? EG,
assume the skin is 1mm thick plastic;
calculate the radius of cylinder needed to
support the mass of the enclosing skin
(ignoring the ends, for the moment), then
calculate the rate of spin needed to
support the skin against 1atm of pressure.
Should be easy. |
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OK. Here's the first part. We'll consider
a cylindrical balloon, and we're going to
ignore the ends (so, this is strictly true
only for a cylinder of infinite length - or
for a toroidal balloon). Let the skin
material have a mass of m grams per
square centimetre. Let the length of the
balloon be L, and let its radius be R. We
want to find R such that the balloon is
just neutrally bouyant, assuming it
contains a perfect vacuum. OK? So: |
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Mass of balloon, M, in grams is given
by:
M = mL x 2 x pi x R |
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The volume of the balloon, V, in cubic
centimetres is given by: |
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V = L x pi x R" (where I'm using " to
mean squared, for ease of notation) |
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The density of air at sea-level is 1.2 x
10^-3 g per cubic centimetre. Hence,
the bouyancy (B) provided by the
balloon is: |
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B = 1.2 x 10^-3 x L x pi x R" |
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We want to find R such that M = B, in
other words: |
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mL x 2 x pi x R = 1.2 x 10^-3 x L x pi x
R" |
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Cancelling and rearranging, we get: |
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So, let's assume that our skin is made
of plastic 1mm thick, giving a mass of
roughly 0.1g per cm^2, in which case: |
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R = 3.3 x 10^3 x 0.1
or
R= 3.3 x 10^2
or about 3.3 metres. |
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In other words, a balloon about 20ft in
diameter (and much much longer)
would be neutrally bouyant if it could
hold a vacuum. |
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OK, so, next question. How fast does
this balloon have to spin, in order to
support its skin against a vacuum? |
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Consider one square centimetre of the
skin, having a mass (m) of 0.1 grams. It
experiences a force of almost exactly
1000grams due to atmospheric
pressure.
This has to be opposed by centrifugal
force (C), in grams, given by: |
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where w is the rotation speed in radians
per second, and R is the radius in
metres (sorry for the change in units)
and I'm using " to mean "squared". We
know that R is 3.3 metres (see above),
and so: |
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so w" = 1000/(0.1 x 3.3) = 3000
so w = 55 radians per second. This is
about 8.7 rps or about 521rpm. This is
pretty fast, but not unattainable. |
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One point to bear in mind is that, if the
balloon leaks and air gets in, the skin
will be ripped apart as if the whole
thing had been positively pressurized to
15psi over atmospheric pressure. |
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So, in fact, this is sort of feasible. The
only killer is the mass of the end-walls.
The net force acting on them will want
to dimple them inwards in the centre,
and they'll need to be quite hefty. If
you could make the balloon very, very
long and then bend it round into a torus
(doughnut) then it would need no ends.
It would then rotate by "rolling" about
the circular axis of the torus. Of
course, the skin would need to stretch
and shrink as the torus rotated. |
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[MaxB], that's most impressive. All I'd come up with was the concept of a toroidal balloon. |
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A toroidal balloon would also have to be spun on the vertical axis through its center, would it not? Otherwise the extra area of the outer half torus (as the walls expand and contract) would cause an inward pressure. I don't know how that motion would complicate things. |
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//A toroidal balloon would also have to be
spun on the vertical axis through its
center, would it not?// That's something I
hadn't figured out, and I'm not sure I can
get my head around it. My gut reaction is
that there shouldn't be a problem, but you
may have spotted something I missed. Can
you explain a bit more? |
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I'll try to work out coaxial cones, which I think will work. |
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Have you considered the impact of (a) Coriolis force, (b) gyroscope effect, (c) Magnus effect ? |
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All these will affect lift and directional control. |
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//Have you considered the impact of (a)
Coriolis force, (b) gyroscope effect, (c)
Magnus effect ?//
(a) yes (b) yes (c)
yes. |
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//Can you explain a bit more?// |
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I'll try, but I'm not sure if I'm right. |
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First, spin up an extremely long cylinder. If you look at it as two long half-cylinders, both have equal area. If you bend it into a torus, by bending toward one of the half-cylinders, that inner half, which is now the inner half of a torus, has to compress. That will reduce its surface area--assuming that it does not wrinkle--if it is elastic. So there will be less area to resist the pressure of the atmosphere. |
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Which is the long way of saying that the natural shape of a pressure vessel is a sphere. |
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The hell with it. Just give the torus an extra few RPM around its circular axis, and everything will be fine. |
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//So there will be less area to resist the
pressure of the atmosphere.// Yes, but
where the skin is contracted, it will also
have more mass per unit area, thereby
furnishing additional force. |
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Yeah, you are right. I plead cold/flu. I need to go take more meds, or maybe less. |
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Could you draw a picture of this? |
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I'm having a hard time picturing a.... //stationary outer cylinder, magnetically supported by a spinning inner cylinder, supported by centrifugal force.// |
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I'm guessing that the outer cylinder (a gas bladder) is pressurized by centrifugal forces created by the inner cylinder (a thin iron shell with paddles), right? And that the outer cylinder is purportedly supported by bouyancy (because it displaces more weight than its volume contains), right? |
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So.... the question is, "what makes the inner cylinder spin (with a constant power input to overcome the viscoscity of the vaccumed air) and how does it levitate (just saying magnetism is quite vague)?" |
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There's a big helicopter underneath. The cylinders sit on top of the blades. The outside cylinder expands like the gown of a princess when she spins around at a ball. |
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Except this helicopter's blades are flat underneath, so they deflect no air downwards. They rely entirely the dress expanding outwards to generate vaccuum. |
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Helicopter blades rotate at 250-500rpm, much the same number as the one [MaxwellBuchanen] described. |
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So when this helicopter spins to normal speed, the vacuum it creates causes the cylinder to reach neutral buoyancy with the air. |
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And then -- voila. You have invented a helicopter that weighs the same as a normal helicopter, consumes more energy, and can't fly. |
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So I guess the question is, how many pounds per rpm? I'm sure it's a function. My guess is this helicopter will have to have something like 500 x 10^5 rpm's coming off the top end, in order to lift off the ground. |
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The gyroscopic forces will not allow it to tilt the propeller to go either forward or backwards, but it can employ more propellers for forward propulsion. Lighter then air is useless for going sideways through air, so they'd probably have to be conventional propellers. |
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It would be a very stable flight, but I would worry about potential problems when the outer cylinder goes supersonic and then heads on off to light speed.* |
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* lower rpms could allowed by adding a lot of extra mass to the outer cylinder. higher rpms would then be required to lift this additional weight. Thus the outer cylinder would approach light speed. |
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//Thus the outer cylinder would approach
light speed.// May I respectfully refer Mr.
Mylodon to the foregoing calculation? |
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I used the results of your calculation. |
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I'm pretty sure your calculated 521rpm cylinder could lift a penny, if the penny could somehow power the fairy-silk spun contraption above it.
(there would need to be a counter-rotating cylinder or toroid below the penny, however -- otherwise the penny would just spin) |
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This is just an obfuscated helicopter. |
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// obfuscated helicopter // |
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No, there is an important difference; the helicopter rises on thrust generated by a downdraught created by a rotor; therefore it is a newtonian "reaction drive". This idea relies on mechanically generated bouyancy for lift. |
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But wouldn't the force of the particles under the balloon, pushing up, be the same as the generated force under helicopter blades (lifting the same mass). And of course, above is vacuum. |
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For a given lifting weight, yes. But there is an important distinction between lift and buoyancy, as any fule kno. |
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Consider a submarine. Once submerged and at neutral buoyancy, it can change its submergence depth by two methods: |
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1. By pumping out water ballast, it will reduce its average density below that of the surrounding water; thus, it will rise. In this case, the pressure is exerted over the whole hull area below the centreline. |
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2. By use of hydroplanes, it can convert momentum (forward motion) into "lift", thus also causing it to rise; but in this case, the lifting force acts only on the hydroplanes, not on the hull. |
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A submarine with negative buoyancy will sink until it reaches an equilibrium point (where the density of the water matches the desnity of the boat), but can maintain level or even rise by using forward propulsion and hydroplanes to bring it up. |
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The consequence of the two approaches is the same, but the physical mechanism is different. |
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I made a wrong assumption in the text of the smoke ring bubbles link, but there is an idea half buried/stated there that uses a spinning toroid bubble film. |
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The idea of balancing centipetal force against pressure is rather neat, but in the similar way that a spinning toroid bubble film probably wouldn't be so stable, I think any imperfections in caspian's idea would lead to local bulging & failure. |
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How did you visualize a helicopter from this idea [mylodon]? |
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I'm getting a rotating cylinder within another larger cylinder kind of feel for this idea. Actually, the larger the outer cylinder is, the more total pressure-flux (force) will be on it, which would require structural beams to keep it from imploding assuming there is a vacuous condition inside. I take it that you are trying to cause a dynamic pressure against the skin of the outer cylinder in order to counteract the crushing pressure differential from the outside so that the outer cylinder is supported. Well it is an interesting concept, but it seems that this elaborate method would be awefully inefficient, if not down-Wright impossible. |
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But aside from that, you would probably want 2 inner cylinders with innermeshing paddles that are spinning in opposite directions to achieve a net angular momentum of zero as a stability issue. It would be like those things at the car wash that rotate really rapidly in opposite directions and bang up the side of your car with rags, except it would be within a large cylinder, I still don't see how this could fly though. |
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I guess the next stage would be testing your crazy idea, but what the heck. [+] |
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Testing? are you insane? We're just at the point where we need to be considering our necessary funding levels! |
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Something's missing. Using [MB]'s numbers, I find that the 3.3m cylinder surface is travelling at 3.14 x 6.6m x 8.7 rps = 90.48 m/sec, or about 202 mph = 328 km/hr! |
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Along with needing unobtanium plastic sheet, the drag will kill it. It could conceivably operate in a vacuum, but that would rather spoil the whole purpose. |
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Start small. Try using two 64 Oz plastic cups as the outer cylinder and a lightweight motor on each end and go from there. I know this is a fire hazard, but the Wright Brothers did some crazy stuff too. If you turned on the motors you should get some positive pressure in your contraption, so you would want to, somehow, vacuum out the air until the pressure on the inside equalizes with the pressure on the outside. The key is to make the cups, the battery, the inner cylinder paddle contraption, and the motor weigh less than the surrounding air while providing sufficient dynamic pressures to keep the cups from crushing in on themselves. I don't think it will be that easy to make it fly, but it's up to [caspian] to prove me wrong by making it fly through trial and error. Also, you could submerge your cups under water in order to test how much pressure difference it can stand and if it's airtight (but don't get the motors wet). Good luck! |
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An afterthought: This small of a system would definantly not float in the air, but it sure could float in water. I suppose you'd really have to go larger in order to have it float in air, but it would function as a small scale model for underwater pressure testing purposes in finding out how much dynamic pressure your motors could supply at various RPMs and with various fittings. |
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...actually, why not do something with the ends ? Specifically, make each end of the cylinder into a propeller; the skin is attached to the blades (or more exactly to a ring which is attached to the blades).
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Design the propellers such that the rotational speed necessary to make the skin weigh 14psi is the rotational speed necessary for the propellers to evacuate the cylinder. |
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But the air inside the cylinder will be rotating with the cylinder, after just a few minutes, and will be moving right along with the blades. |
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Have we lost track of the original idea? That was a stationary outer skin that would have no air drag, held by repulsion from centrifugally supported magnets. |
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// I think any imperfections in caspian's
idea would lead to local bulging &
failure.// This is a real flaw, I think,
and you're right. Any bulge will put
that part of the skin further from the
axis of rotation, increasing the outward
force proportionately, with no
corresponding balancing force. Hence,
aneurysms will tend to develop unless
the skin is quite strong. Fortunately,
there's no tendency for the rotational
axis to drift off-centre (since centrifugal
force is linear with radius), as far as I
can tell. |
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Nevertheless, the idea does have
considerable merit. Above all, it
changes the classic "vacuum balloon"
problem from one of building an
immensely strong vessel in
compression into a problem of building
a modestly strong vessel in tension,
which is very very much easier. |
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Also, all the numbers get very much
nicer as the thing gets bigger. If you
wanted to build a very very very large
lifting body, this might be the best way
to do it. |
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// unless the skin is quite strong // |
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Carbon fibre composites are extremely strong, light, and exhibit minimal measurabe creep under extreme tension, right up to their failure point. |
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You're all barking nutters. |
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It's also effing brilliant and I wish I'd come up with it. |
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Suspended within a stationary outer cylinder, but does the outer cylinder need to be complete? There will be a resultant significant skin drag, but that could be used as a sort of caterpillar drive - expose that part of the inner cylinder that is going opposite the desired direction of travel, and the skin drag pushes the vacoon in whatever way you want to go. |
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Assuming the wind doesn't dictate otherwise. |
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I'm concerned that this thing will require prohibitive levels of magnetic field strength, as it spins up to speed. The faster it spins... the more it expands... the longer the swept radius... the slower it gets as angular momentum is conserved... the more power & speed you need to maintain the integrity of the outer wall... the heavier the magnets need to be to increase speed to do that as their effect diminishes at an inverse square rate... the more power input it needs to lift it. |
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It becomes a self-limiting system, defeating its role as a lifting device. |
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There is no provision for free lunches mentioned in the Laws of Thermodynamics. |
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I think the suspension is simple enough: the inner cylinder has a few Halbach arrays on it, and the outer cylinder does too. Halbach arrays are passively stable once they lift off, and they lift off at pretty low speeds. So there's your suspension. Add a couple more arrays at the ends to keep the cylinders centered on each other, and that eliminates side-to-side shifting. So now you can place a load on your vacuum balloon without actually touching it. The extra mass of the Halbach array may also permit a slower rotation speed for vacuum inflation. |
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For a linear balloon I think you'd need something that was pretty rigid along the spin axis. For the torus, I got nothing. |
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// It becomes a self-limiting system, defeating its role as a lifting device. // |
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But it would be sooo awesome to actually do. |
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Cylinders suffer from one major drawback, (in terms of forces) their ends don't justify their mean. |
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[Max], I am so pleased that you posted the physics. |
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You all took something completely different away from this idea. I thought that it was the inner magnetic cylinder that spun, and by doing so, induced a magnetic field in the outer cylinder. The two fields repel one another. And the outer cylinder moves away from the spinning inner one. |
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If the outer balloon were stationary, one would want large fins on it, since under the influence of the magnetic fileds it will begin to spin too, thus decreasing the motion difference between inner and outer and decreasing the magnetism induced. The idea of keeping the outside still and the inside in motion would be good as regards durability as well. |
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With electromagnets on the inside one could alternate the current in the inner cylinder, maintaining the magnetic repulsion but changing direction to prevent spin in any one direction from building up. |
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It may be that if the inner cylinder spins very fast, such that the outer cylinder cannot possibly catch up because of air resistance, the inner cylinder could turn the outer cylinder (retaining centrifugal vacuum balloon element) but also contribute magnetic repulsion as well, so the outer balloon does not have to spin as fast. This would be a combination of centrifugal and magnetic evacuation of the outer balloon. |
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Magnetic repulsion works better the closer together things are. The inner "cylinder" should be able to change in diameter to keep closely apposed to the outer skin. I propose that instead of a cylinder on the inside, the interior driving apparatus be a compressible / expandable metal mesh cage. I have seen desktop toys like this made out of wire. It would also be similar to the metal stents used to treat arteriosclerosis and such. As the exterior balloon expands in diameter, the interior cylindrical cage also expands to keep close to the interior surface of the balloon. Also the cage would be lighter than a solid. |
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//You all took something completely
different away from this idea.// Yes, it's
one of those posts that triggers a bunch of
related ideas. I never did get the idea of
the concentric cylinders, but it turns out
that a simple spinning cylinder is close to
being a workable idea. I suspect that if
you made this thing a few tens of meters
in diameter, and a few hundred metres
long (comparable to a conventional
airship), it might become quite feasible. |
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The thing with the spinning cylinder is how it is kept spinning I guess. If not magnetically, I suppose there could be fore and aft compartments, each with massive vanes to keep them from rotating, one containing the motor and one the far anchor of the axle. It could be powered by one of those Ms Fusion doohickies, or a zed-point jobber from Stargate. |
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I was hoping, [max] that you would make with the physics formulas again, but this time using magnets instead of spin. |
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Well ..... three cylinders, the two end ones half the length of the middle one, and contrarotating, will balance the torque....... |
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An altogether happier solution would be to
have two cylinders side by side, with a
modest gap betwixt them. The driving
mechanism would be a sort of figure-8
affair at each end of the pair of parallel
cylinders. The two cylinders would
counter-rotate, and this arrangement
would give additional stability. |
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And then we put the frog into the gap, for acceleration... Oh, no, sorry, that was a different idea. |
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The "parallel cylinders" idea uses two axles instead of the single shaft of my single segmented cylinder design, and requires a more complex drive mechanism. |
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As MisterQED suggests, I'm not using just a single spinning cylinder because it would have drag against the air. I can't spot any spelling mistakes in my title, which he mentioned. Are the hyphens controversial? |
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Both the spinning and repulsion magnetic forces I had thought of as being like maglev trains. I'll link to the wikipedia article. It would need power to keep the inner cylinder spinning against magnetic drag. Stable equilibrium is possible, unlike with unmoving magnets. |
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The gap between the inner and outer cylinders is kept as small as possible to increase magnetic forces. The inner cylinder doesn't need to be air-tight since it have vacuum inside and out. |
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[quantum_flux] You could picture the outer cylinder as a cylinder made of many rings of maglev rail, but I don't know what maglev tracks look like. I had thought about 10cm thick laminated combination of aluminium (carries induced current) and plastic (insulator). It's not a gas bladder with gas on the inside, it has gas on the outside and vacuum on the inside. If anyone else wants to draw a diagram that would be great.
//I'm getting a rotating cylinder within another larger cylinder kind of feel for this idea// Yes, that's what I meant. I didn't imagine any paddles though. |
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[elhigh] Yes, Halbach arrays look good. |
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I don't have quite enough equations to see how well this would work. Wikipedia's Inductrack page says 200:1 lift-to-drag ratio at 500 km/h, presumably with more lift than weight of maglev components (it's for trains). Also that drag decreases inversely with speed beyond a certain point. Constant power for a given force would make sense, since both correspond with a given current. |
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That should be enough to estimate power required per unit of force from air pressure. Not that easily though, or I'd do it now. Then knowing air pressure, you could estimate power required per unit of surface area. |
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I have a solution to the cylinder end problem. Make the outer shell a sphere instead. Instead of the inner cylinder, have three sets of spinning rings. One set spins around the Y axis at the right set of speeds to balance half the X and Z axis components of the air pressure on the outside shell. The other two sets spin around the X and Z and each balance half of two axis components of the air pressure. The rings are no longer within the sphere volume, instead, they are embedded in the sphere shell. |
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I had not considered the possibility that the cylinder could expand. It's simpler if it doesn't. |
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You should consider filling the gap between the inner and outer skins with hydrogen or helium. The light, highly mobile gas will reduce drag and turbulence, and even give a bit more lift.... but this will be negilgible compared to the lift of the device itself. Some gas will of course diffuse out (in both directions) but the loss can be managed - it is in conventional airships. |
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The idea of a sphere on gimballs is intriguing, but there remains the problem of power transmission through the axles. In many aircraft instruments - admittedly tiny - multi-axis gyros are powered by air pressure (actually, a vacuum pump). Do you really need to spin the sphere in 3 dimensions ? |
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If the cylinder is vertical, with the payload/powerplant suspended from the vertical central shaft, this simplifies the design. |
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<later> There's a film about alien contact which shows a device with a "spinning ring" design. |
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Ezekiel 16The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. |
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17When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. |
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18As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. |
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Oddly, that occured to us, too. But not as interesting as the book of Exodus .... |
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23a And yea, even as their wheels were
thrust heavenwards with much noise
and rushing of wind, there came three
wise men. "Verily," quoth the first "the
force which is centrifugal doth support
the nothingness within." Then spake
the second, saying "Thou shalt be
smitten in twain, for hath not the Lord
said that the force centrifugal is nought
but a deception of the devil? The force
centripetal is the True Way!" and, so
saying, he smote the first wise man in
twain, and thus was his prophecy
fulfilled. Then spake yet the third of
the wise men, crying "Couldst one not
fill it also with custard?" |
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23b : "And there was much rejoicing." |
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