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Barbed Band

Razor sharp for fencing in and fencing out
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This steel or aluminum band, cut from sheet metal, is punched with a special pattern, so that when stretched, sharp-edged points fold out. Fencing when erected is often tightened between posts, thus pulling out the three-dimensional barbs from the band. The pattern is punched at an angle to give them knife edges.

A roll of barbed band is compact, and the product is easy and safe to handle until stretched. A band as wide as the height of a fence could also be produced to make a barrier that would be extremely difficult to get through or over. See diagram below.

FarmerJohn, Mar 19 2004

diagram http://www.geocitie...ie/barbedband.html?
[FarmerJohn]

similar concept, not as easy to transport or handle. http://www.kosedag.com/razor_wire.asp [FarmerJohn, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]

similar concept, not as easy to transport or handle. http://www.kosedag.com/razor_wire.asp
[ato_de, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 05 2004]

other competitors http://www.security...re_and_fencing.html
I think your concept is unique enough to actually patent. [ato_de, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]

NRS 569.431 http://www.leg.stat...9.html#NRS569Sec431
Nevada statue concerning fencing [toiyabe, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]

Concertina wire http://www.defensel...109-A-4385T-009.jpg
[bungston, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 05 2004]

tn_IMG_0786 http://andyvw.net/p...epages/IMG_0786.php
Nevada statue concerning dam [waugsqueke, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]

[link]






       Another brilliant one, FJ.
waugsqueke, Mar 19 2004
  

       ah! extreme christmas paper chains...
po, Mar 19 2004
  

       [FJ], do me a favour and keep this one under your hat. I do a lot of walking in the great outdoors and I hate having to jump fences with barbed wire. If Farmer Barleymow gets a hold of this stuff, I'm grounded!
saker, Mar 19 2004
  

       Yoo so clever. +
k_sra, Mar 19 2004
  

       Sheesh - this one's good enough to be patented - go for it!
DrCurry, Mar 19 2004
  

       So, you gonna razor fold?   

       Huh?
FarmerJohn, Mar 19 2004
  

       [DrCurry]: You seriously think so?
[FJ]: If you seriously think so then delete this idea now and we'll all pretend it didn't exist until you've applied for the patent.
  

       ( + by the way - oh and razor fold: poker pun!)
Jinbish, Mar 19 2004
  

       I agree with [DC]. There's a lot of barbed wire sold in the world - great riches lie behind patenting a better process.
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       It certainly would be easier to handle - tight rolls instead of bulky bales. I wonder if the military would be interested in this?
bungston, Mar 19 2004
  

       I agree in principle to the benefits and patentability of this one, but I wonder what the difference in length between flat and deployed is? Looks like it might be significant. If you lay out 50 feet, and then need to stretch it x percent, depending on x, you could still end up having to handle the "wire" in pokey form in order to manipulate it into its final placement. I suspect you've already tested this with cut paper, so these figures should be easy to figure.
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       As I understand it, you generally deploy barbed wire from a spool on the back of a truck. You could have a little stretcher (two sets of wheels, one set spinning faster than the other) set up right next the spool as it unrolls.
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       Yep. I was thinking of fencing that is stretched at about 100 ft intervals. Never mind. [+]
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       You're right, a paper test gave 66% stretch (from 50 ft to 83 ft).
FarmerJohn, Mar 19 2004
  

       One way to install this would be to have a spool on the back of your tractor, and a brake that you can operate while driving that will stop the spool from unwinding. You nail the end of the unstretched band to the first fencepost, then start driving while letting the spool unwind. When you are 2/3 of the distance to the next fencepost you apply the brake so the spool stops unwinding and begins to stretch out what has already been unwound.   

       (You are clearly going to grow extremely wealthy off of this one, FJ.)
AO, Mar 19 2004
  

       Right, FJ, but if you are stretching it as you attatch it to each post, that'll be ok. For fence systems with many light weight posts in between anchor posts every 100 ft or whathaveyou, you can still stretch it at each post, then attach it, as has already been connected to the last anchor post. But that assumes a fairly finite final stretched length, or the earlier inbetween posts would start to lean over as increasing load is put on them.
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       Hence my stretcher part of the idea, so it's pre-stretched when it comes off the truck. No extra tension on the post required.
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       Yes. Both of you ( FJ and Worldg) should take this outside and team up on this one. That is, if you want to spend the next year or two becoming 'barb war' fence experts.
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       <weeps> will they still write when they are millionaires?
po, Mar 19 2004
  

       [oc] Nah, my part of the idea is quite baked for many applications - this one's all [FJ]. Oh, and far more barbed wire is used on ranches than in warfare.   

       [po] Hey, I'd write more often if I was a millionaire. In fact I'd have more time for halfbaking as well. (wanders off in a daydream)
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       world, I loved you when you had nothing!remember that!
po, Mar 19 2004
  

       You didn't know me when I had nothing. I don't think I've ever really had nothing.   

       [FJ] Did you really make a 50 ft. long paper model?
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       Did she look like Heidi Klum?
bungston, Mar 19 2004
  

       50ft is nothing to FJ.
po, Mar 19 2004
  

       That's 'war', as in 'barb war' as in Texas panhandle pronouniation of wire, from Annie Proulx, _That Old Ace in the Hole_.
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       Oh. In that case I'm sure [FarmerJohn] will be fine with it, considering his name is [FarmerJohn].
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       FJ, I agree, this is definitely a money-maker. Get it outta here and get busy.   

       (I have always imagined that as good as the ideas are that you post here, the quality of the ones you must keep for yourself for investment purposes would be seriously amazing.)
waugsqueke, Mar 19 2004
  

       Looking at your diagram, I think it might not be strong enough to be a livestock fence. To be a lawful fence in Nevada at least, the wire must take a horizontal load of 250 lbs. located midway between adjacent posts without stretching. I assume other open range states have similar laws.   

       I think this would stretch under such a load.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       Everything stretches under any load, unless you know of magical rigid body barbed wire. I think if fullly stretched already, this could perform as well as barbed wire.
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       By "stretch" I meant "plastic deformation". I thought that would be obvious.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       Thought: I wonder if the tensile strength would be negatively affected at the bend points. When fully stretched, there will be at least six points in each segment that are bent almost 180°.
waugsqueke, Mar 19 2004
  

       Good points (heh). To perform as barbed wire for this test you'd probably have to wind it with regular wire.
Worldgineer, Mar 19 2004
  

       If you were planning to make the fence entirely out of this stuff, you might be in trouble since it would tend to tear at the corners. However, you could make the fence out of regular straight wire, with a strip of barbed band at the top. (Am I correct in thinking that you only need barbs at approximately mid-cow height?)
AO, Mar 19 2004
  

       [waugsqueke] I didn't steal your idea, I was responding to an idea that worldgineer edited into his prior post after I responded to him. I didn't see what you wrote before I wrote that. Still, I've deleted it.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       In Nevada, at least you don't need barbs at all, you just need to meet the strength requirement. Still, just about every livestock fence seems to be barbed wire. I've linked to the governing law in case you're curious.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       It does say "withstand" . I take that to mean without plastic deformation. Certainly if it's saggy it won't meet the height requirements.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       Nope. Read it again. According to the law the wires must be at 12, 24, 36 and 48 inches (doesn't say that exactly, but the effect is the same). I guess you can get away with an inch or two either way. A little sag over a 20 foot run will exceed that easily.   

       Regardless, I presume from your handle that you're an engineer of some sort, and you should know that "withstand" and "plastic deformation" are mutually exclusive with regards to static loading (ok, maybe not is some wierd contexts if you want to be slippery, but not this context).   

       I guess I'm gettting over-pedantic. I agree that it is a great idea even if it suffers from some implementation issues.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       WRT point 1, you got me. Still, no one will use this if you need more than four wires.   

       WRT point 2, I can't think of a single type of structure where significant plastic deformation does not constitute failure. Yes, "ductile failure" can be acceptable failure, and "britile failure" is unacceptable failure, but they are both failure. Energy absorbing structures (i.e. bicycle helmets) may be designed to deform under expected dynamic loading, but they still have failed and need to be replaced.   

       Also, you seem to have stipulated that this band will likely fail at the specified load when fully stretched. If so, then it will fail this test regardless of the prestretch, just absorb a lot of energy on its way.
toiyabe, Mar 19 2004
  

       Don't forget the difference between razor wire and barbed wire. This might be better suited to razor wire applications, where it isn't under any tension, but applied in loose coils on the top of a chain link fence to keep people out (or in). Just a thought.
oxen crossing, Mar 19 2004
  

       [ox], I was just going to say that about razor wire. You usually do not see razor wire used for livestock - it is for keeping people away. "Concertina" wire (link) is the application this would be good for.
bungston, Mar 19 2004
  

       Neither the phrase "barbed coaxial", nor the phrase "coaxial barbed" wire returns results on Google.
dpsyplc, Mar 19 2004
  

       Problem. Totally stretched would tend to flatten all the points back down again (one of the 'hinge points' will be weaker than the other), and would no longer provide significant deterrence to a big animal or a human with good gloves.   

       If it's partially stretched, then pressure on the wire will stretch it more, and it will sag to the ground.
snarke, Mar 20 2004
  

       //Totally stretched would tend to flatten all the points back down again// Incorrect. Try it with paper. At maximum stretch, the barbs continue to point outwards, and additional force will result eventually (depending on material thickness and strength) in shearing.
FarmerJohn, Mar 21 2004
  

       2fries: I'll see your fries and raise you 2 more.
RayfordSteele, Mar 25 2004
  

       I like it. You shall soon have collecters lining up for a piece. +
sartep, Mar 25 2004
  

       Call. Full house, bullets over one eyed jacks.   

       Perhaps don;t even punch the stuff until you are installing it. As it rolls off the reel it feeds through a revolving punch wheel that puts the pattern in it. Maybe customizable... You can have an option for ONE SIDED fencing. All the sharp pointies stick out of one side and on the other side its just smooth with holes. Might be good for certain types of livestock or poultry, or where you need to keep animals in (at the zoo) but don't want people walking by it to get snagged.
sirching, Mar 26 2004
  

       If you want to get really nasty, you can use your method to produce standard rolls of barbed wire (of the type suitable for military use) that in addition to the barbs, has sharp or serrated edges. The same machine that slits the flat metal tape can form the edges and a "puller" can tension the tape to extend the barbs. I imagine that the tape will have to be wide enough to allow rollers to engage the edges for a puller to work. BTW, no one anywhere outside the US and CA will pay a penny for this one as the patent rights are already blown overseas - absolute novelty required.
cj finn, Mar 26 2004
  

       ouch, that's evil looking stuff.
simonj, Apr 01 2004
  
      
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