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Both ways ratchet

Crank drives one way, crank again drives same way
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A ratchet spanner, for example, will turn a nut when cranked in one direction then go click click click when cranked in the other direction. The drive direction can be reversed, or the whole thing taken off and turned around. I want a spanner (type device) that would turn a nut when cranked in one direction then turn it again when cranked in the other direction. The handle goes backwards and forwards but the rotation produced is always in the same direction.
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008

One Way Ratchet Screwdriver http://borderex.man...het-Screwdriver.htm
Like this, but with automatic switching? [csea, Nov 13 2008]

Automatic Watch Winding http://www.brainlub....com/watchpage.html
Pretty good visual depictions. [bleh, Jun 01 2009]

Simple Sketchup rendering of my interpretation. http://www.prism.ga.../reversinggears.png
Crude, I know, the gears are circles, but I think it gets the point across. [bleh, Jun 01 2009]

Hebelantrieb (no idea about translation) http://www.reha-tec...rg.de/rollstuhl.htm
for disabled persons who can still use their arms. [loonquawl, Jun 02 2009]

[link]






       Nice - plus it solves that problem where you have to remember which way tightens, and which loosens.
zen_tom, Nov 13 2008
  

       Yeah, hadn't thought of that. The application I have in mind is not actually as a spanner but the example serves.
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       I was thinking of a recumbent tricycle with optional hand crank by way of levers at each side. I wanted to have a drive stroke with push and pull. Steering would be side to side.
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       I have a screwdriver that works like that.
po, Nov 13 2008
  

       Does it have a name? You turn it to the right and the screw goes in, you turn it to the left the screw goes in?
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       I don't bring it to work with me so I can't tell you   

       there's a switch on the handle.
po, Nov 13 2008
  

       Ah, but po - I think what we're talking about here is one that automatically switches that switch for you. So instead of turn-switch-turn-switch-turn, all you have to do is turn-turn-turn, with all the switching done for you.   

       Actually, I'm talking rubbish, because in my final turn-turn-turn scenario, the nut would be sort of back where it started - what should happen is that a turnL-turnR-turnL motion on the spanner is translated into a turnL-turnL-turnL motion of the nut/bolt.
zen_tom, Nov 13 2008
  

       This would only be possible with a second handle, but with that addition and some gearing it would be quite bakable
miasere, Nov 13 2008
  

       [zen_tom] That's it. Then a switch could be flicked and the L - R - L - R would translate to R - R - R - R   

       [miasere] I'm not sure I get the second handle bit
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       back to my screwdriver if it's in clockwise mode - I turn and then on the anti-clock motion it goes click, click, click and you can twist the screw in a bit further...
po, Nov 13 2008
  

       I think the second handle is to provide a "frame of reference" by which to create the reverse gear. Without it, you won't get reverse motion.   

       Kind of like those hand pumps which pump on the upstroke as well as the downstroke.   

       Two opposing handles (like scissors) could be used to create reversible single-direction rotation. +
csea, Nov 13 2008
  

       po, what you are describing is the well baked one way ratchet screwdriver as per [link]   

       What I want is one where, instead of your click click click, it drives the screw in again.   

       I can see it working in my head with one handle. The scissor action pump handles DO provide one way motion but each handle is either only pull or push, not both
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       yes but it's a two way ratchet screwdriver.
po, Nov 13 2008
  

       Only one way at a time
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       this is baked in mechanical automatic winding watch movements. They have a set of (at least 4) gears which take the movement of an oscillating weight and translate it to uni-directional winding of the mainspring.   

       Also in place in mechanical alarm wristwatches. The Vulcain Cricket winds the mainspring when you wind one direction, and winds the alarm spring when you wind the other direction. It uses a simple mechanism which could easily be applied to do this on a larger scale.
bleh, Nov 13 2008
  

       Fair comment. Cheers for the pointer
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       [M a M] just wondering if it's for lefthanders.
po, Nov 13 2008
  

       ho ho po
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       impossible. it would require torque without reaction.
WcW, Nov 13 2008
  

       "impossible. it would require torque without reaction."
Nope. Just like a regular screwdriver, you're pushing with your feet.
  

       "You could do it but you'd need another one to undo nuts."
You could probably rig a switch, but you could also put a head on each end and just flip it over to (un)tighten.
phoenix, Nov 13 2008
  

       [miasere] (and others) are right - you will need another handle to provide the reverse direction.
Think about the motion as axial vectors (horizontally):
Normal: Input -->, Output -->; that's OK
Reverse: Input -->, Output <--; the difference is <----, the reaction required to achieve the output.
neutrinos_shadow, Nov 13 2008
  

       How does the watch do it? What's wrong with handle movement one way - fine, handle movement other way drops in the extra cog to keep output rotation the same way?
Mony a Mickle, Nov 13 2008
  

       As has been pointed out, you can't do it with a single handle. In effect, you'd be asking the head to turn in the opposite direction to the applied torque. For this to happen, there has to be some point of leverage, ie a second handle. To simplify the problem, imagine the equivalent problem in linear motion: you're trying to invent the equivalent of a shovel which pushes forward even when you pull the handle backwards; it can't work unless there's a fixed pivot point.   

       In automatic watches, there are various mechanisms, but they all have a fixed pivot point 'outside' the system, so that rotation of the weight in one direction can be taken through a gear (whose axle is the fixed point) to reverse its direction when necessary.
MaxwellBuchanan, Nov 13 2008
  

       sure, you could use a plantary with a slip clutch but without an anchor point the whole thing is a disaster.
WcW, Nov 13 2008
  

       did anyone who bunned this actually think it through?
WcW, Nov 13 2008
  

       Please, [WcW], remember where you are ....
8th of 7, Nov 13 2008
  

       given, but this is a slippery slope.
WcW, Nov 13 2008
  

       I knew I shouldn't have mentioned a wrench, spanner. Describing turning a nut in the initial description was also not the right thing to do. The both ways ratchet is for handles on a tricycle recumbent. They would have a fixed point, and there would be 2 of them. I still need to have a drive stroke in both directions, not using a crank in the axle.   

       I push forward on the handle and the wheels are driven forward, I pull back on the handle and the wheels are still driven forward. The handles are pivoted somewhere under the seat.   

       The idea is baked if the watch thing comes in but a link or picture would be good.   

       [MaxwellBuchanan] thanks for the shovel explanation, I was struggling with vectors [WcW] plantary or planetary?
Mony a Mickle, Nov 14 2008
  

       planetary. There are plenty of ways to make a ratchet double acting but they all involve being attached to a common frame of reference (a torque bridge) that translates the force. In fact as long as you have some way to tie down the tool to the work the torque can come from any source. what you want is a planetary gearset with a one way clutch on the orbit, drive through the sun gear and input to the planetary ring . (or the inverse....) this would allow you to drive forward on both clockwise and counterclockwise rotation (just as an automatic transmission does only inverted). You could even have different gear ratios for push/pull.
WcW, Nov 14 2008
  

       That word again, impossible. //they all involve being attached to a common frame of reference// Like the tricycle frame? //good leverage for either a push or a pull, not both// There are two handles, one on each side of the seat (a bit like 'cross country' ski machines, not that they have seats but it is the handles I am refering to) Left hand pushing, right hand pulling. Then right hand pushing, left hand pulling. Body remaining in the middle. Each stroke of each hand turns the wheels forward.   

       I thought it would be a matter of (automatically reversing) gearing
Mony a Mickle, Nov 14 2008
  

       I've got a ratcheting overdrive screwdriver - you set the direction, and grab the front part of the handle, and it gives you 3xturn - zzz - 3xturn - zzz; release the front ring and you get 1xturn - zzz - 1xturn - zzz.   

       With the same planetary drive, you could put on 2 ratchet units, one driving a reversing gear, the other direct; they both output to the same shaft into the planetary. Then you would be able to grab the output ring, get turnR - turnR - turnR, release and get zzz - zzz - zzz. Switch both ratchets for turnL, or only one for TFU.
lurch, Nov 14 2008
  

       nope, the planetary would be better. that way you could drive from both sides simultaniously. Anyway a better descrption of the application would really improve the post and feedback.
WcW, Nov 17 2008
  

       Sorry, I kinda forgot about this place again.... Georgia Tech is a bitch. <linky> for automatic watch winding, but I'm not sure it applies to the spanner idea, i think you are going to need an anchor point.   

       Basically, the watch movement has the drive gear in small arc shaped channel so that it can move depending on the input torque. For instance, if input is clockwise, it engages a train of 2 gears, so that output is also clockwise, If input is counterclockwise, the drive gear slides over and engages a train of three gears, thereby reversing the output to clockwise. I whipped up a little prototype with some clock gears I had laying around. The trick is when you're turning the thing in the direction opposite the desired direction, your going to have a tendency to turn the whole mechanism, rather than engage the gears. If the screw is tight enough, the frictional forces may be enough to keep you from unscrewing, but maybe not.   

       On your tricycle handlebar drive mechanism, the whole mechanism can be attached to the rigid frame (the frame acts as the second handle, providing the extra opposing force) so that it'll switch every time, but you're gonna have a hell of a time getting the gears to mesh just right each time, and I predict some serious jam-ups.   

       Oh, and in my design <also linky>, all the gears will be turning all the time. I guess you'd need to incorporate a ratcheting hub on the final output gear similar to a bike wheel (so that it can keep going forward while the gears are changing).   

       One more thing: what you're looking for on your tricycle is a way to turn reciprocating linear motion into constant rotational motion, which could also be accomplished using a system similar to steam train engines (a pushrod attached to the outer rim of the wheel).
bleh, Jun 01 2009
  

       So i gather this is for driving a vehicle? Baked [link]
loonquawl, Jun 02 2009
  

       Back to the question about what's the name of [po]'s screwdriver.   

       I've only got one screwdriver worthy of a name - Phillip.   

       I have a dolly named Salvador, and a pan named Chopin.
normzone, Jun 02 2009
  

       Why would you want this?   

       Most ratchets have a little switch on them to reverse direction. (Righty - Tighty, Lefty - Loosie).
Zimmy, Jun 02 2009
  

       Ratchet. Isn't that what certain rodents do in unwelcomed places?
xenzag, Jun 02 2009
  
      
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