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Burning granite for fuel?

Could common granite react exothermically with 100% oxygen?
  (+2, -1)
(+2, -1)
  [vote for,

If you subject granite to a high pressure oxidizer can the reaction be exothermal? I realize that the components of granite are already oxidized but what if you can form a multi- compound complex reaction which is exothermal i.e. involving fe(II)=>fe(III) and less nobel metals pushed to more oxidation than more noble metals. If you look at this video, there seems to be more energy than than the reaction with iron wooll, is the rock itself reacting exothermically: see link [link] Likewise, termite may create a lot of heat and could be composed of oxides of different metalls. The components SiO2, Al2O3, K2O, Na2O, CaO, FeO, Fe2O3, MgO, TiO2, P2O5, MnO (see wikipedia for percentages) gives plenty of room for reactions. Oxygen is cheap, and can be separerad from the atmosphere using little extra energy. So, can you use granite as a viable cheap energy source?
janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018

Video och oxygen melting granite? https://www.youtube...watch?v=EA-VCaBUsCA
[janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018]

Gibbs free energy https://en.wikipedi...i/Gibbs_free_energy
" ... can be used to calculate the maximum of reversible work ... " [8th of 7, Mar 07 2018]

Atmospheric history http://pubs.acs.org...2/html/12learn.html
[bs0u0155, Mar 08 2018]

Spaghetti thermic lance https://www.youtube...watch?v=mKZtb6dTWSY
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 09 2018]

Aspergers for the dyslexic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparagus
Very tasty. [8th of 7, Mar 10 2018]

FreePower small_20FreePower!_20electrical_20devices
from radio waves [Skewed, Mar 11 2018]

enthalphy rock http://www.minsocam...n/AM57/AM57_524.pdf
[janpeternordin, Mar 12 2018]


       [janpeter], the guy in the video is using a thing called a "thermal lance", in which metal (in this case, I think it's steel, i.e. iron) is burned in oxygen. The steel wool is used to help start the burning because steel wool has a high surface area and low thermal mass, making it easy to start. It acts a bit like the tinder of a wood fire. But ultimately the energy is coming from the oxidation of the steel pipe. (Listen to the video - he tells you this.)   

       Most rocks are, as you noted, already very well reduced and are in the stoichiometrically lowest state they can be. However, some rocks are not fully oxidised, and can indeed be burned to liberate energy. Coal is an example.
MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 07 2018

       Ooh, there's an idea... burn coal!
RayfordSteele, Mar 07 2018

       Sulfur is also a rock that can burn.   

       The thing about silicate rocks is that silicate is a polymer, much like many carbon compounds (example: polyethylene) are polymers. Do note a significant difference in that most carbon polymers have lots of hydrogen, which means carbon-hydrogen chemical bonds can be broken and replaced with carbon-oxygen and hydrogen-oxygen chemical bonds (and so most carbon polymers are flammable).   

       But hydrogen is not a notable constituent of silicate polymers. The metal atoms that are part of the polymer are bonded to oxygen atoms which in turn are bonded to silicon atoms. So, while you could break one of those two bonds in order to create separate silicon-oxygen and metal-oxygen bonds, there is no net energy gain in doing so.   

       About the only way one might manage an energy gain begins with the **IF** that some atom has multiple bonding possibilities (iron, for example, can form either two or three bonds with other atoms), and the **IF** that in the natural rock only the smaller-number of bonds exists. (Such rocks do exist; see magnetite, for example --but that's not a silicate!) In that case you could get energy from forcing those atoms to form additional chemical bonds (presumably with oxygen, since that is the Idea here). I'm guessing only a small fraction of the atoms in silicate rock has that type of potential, and so you likely would put more energy into modifying the rock to get at those atoms, than you get energy out in oxidizing them.
Vernon, Mar 07 2018

       Thanks, I could still see some reactions taking place where FeO is further oxidized as an example. The video does not show the lance burning in this case ( which I agree is the usual case for a thermal lance which is consumed). But i.e. Mn should also be prone to further oxidization in several steps, as well as Ti. Maybe Si would go to a further oxidation state and Ti might even react with som included N. Al has a multitude of oxidation states and might help in the overall reaction. P might be further oxidized or reduced or even react with the metals. Trace elements are known catalysts. Then we have the stoichiometric "half-states". The queastion is how big is the available energy (if any) and what could be realized with a cheap oxidizer like oxygen under "cheap" pressure? It would be ironic if the world's "energy crises" could be solved by rocks available to anyone.
janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018

       If I remember correctly there is something called Hess' law and Gibb's law which makes the energy content easier to calculate.
janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018

       Gibb's law allows you to calculate net change in entropy using Gibbs Free Energy.   

       Don't make us do physics at you ...   

8th of 7, Mar 07 2018

       There’s also Cole’s Law.
Ian Tindale, Mar 07 2018

       There's a better formulation on offer now ... <link>
8th of 7, Mar 07 2018

       ["Don't make us do physics at you ... "]   

       well I'm a professor in physics so I wouldn't mind :)
janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018

       Here is a reference to something slightly different but still indicate useful enthalpy [link]   

       https://academic.oup.com/ petrology/article/ 42/4/673/1495774   

       and yes english is a language I only learnt in shcool if you are bothered by that pls answer in a language you only learnt in school, and yes I'm, dyslexic even in my natal tongue, and so was Einsten :)
janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018

       You deleted my annotation didn't you?
xenzag, Mar 07 2018

       If you delete annotations you can get kicked out of the HB. Are you aware of this? It's in the help file. "Good ways of getting kicked out are to ....... to persistently delete other users' criticism of one's inventions......" Standards are slipping here. This is the second time today that I've had to post this reminder to stick to the rules here. De rules are de rules mr professor, even for someone with iron wool sheep that can be moved from field to field with magnets instead of a sheep dog.
xenzag, Mar 07 2018

       // dyslexic//   

       There's nothing at all wrong with having dailysex ...
8th of 7, Mar 07 2018

       I was once a weak man.
Ian Tindale, Mar 07 2018

       //answer in a language you only learnt in school//   

       Salve, [jpn]. Cave quid petas, ne recipias.
pertinax, Mar 07 2018

       //professor in physics//   

       You're clearly implying you have some level of knowledge & competence in the subject.   


       Professor is a teaching title & does not in itself denote any degree of competence or education in a subject.   

       Though of course it is "desirable" that one teaching others in a subject actually know what they are talking about it doesn't automatically follow & isn't really even necessary as all you really need to teach effectively is be one lesson ahead of the students in the text book you teach from.   

       As evidence of this I hold up personal experience.. many a time in my youth I experienced classes with educators who didn't know a thing about the subject they were teaching, and not all of those where locums.   

       Which may of course help explain the woeful state of my own knowledge (in b4 8th says something similar ;p).   


       This statement (of yours) really says nothing at all about your qualifications or level of education in the subject.   

       If you really do mean it as "teacher" it should be "of physics" not "in physics" & if you meant it as a meaningful measure of your knowledge on the subject you should have said what level you teach to (primary or secondary school or university degree level etc).. or at least your students ages.
Skewed, Mar 07 2018

       He has sheep covered with metal wool! I think we need to see them.
xenzag, Mar 07 2018

       Salve, [pertinax]. Mater tua criceta fuit, et pater tuo redoluit bacarum sambucus. Gaudium meum, et calix meus inebrians, quam ego nunc Google invenimus interpretari (it's having problems with that last bit though I think) :)
Skewed, Mar 07 2018

       it might be piezo-humor:   

       You can oxidize something already linked to oxygen with Chlorine or Fluorine. So, just stir your powdered granite into liquid fluorine. Chlorine gas can be made from electrolysis of saltwater. You could use piezoelectric levered tide-thingies (gravity) to make voltage to produce the chlorine.   

       No energy from the rocks though, just the gravity.
beanangel, Mar 07 2018

       Granite contains many piezoelectric minerals, so in theory...
MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 08 2018

       //Granite contains many piezoelectric minerals, so in theory...//   

       You could be the sort of fool to hang around at fault lines with a multimeter babbling about how "she's gonna blow!".   

       Or.... you could be the pro-active type and apply modest voltages to various parts of the fault to see what happens.
bs0u0155, Mar 08 2018

       Oh, and the idea. I should address that. Can you oxidize some rock in an exothermic manner? Yes. So we're not in crazy land. What would be required? Well, you'd have to go and get your candidate rock, oxidize it and then take the result away. Even if you do your oxidizing on-site, you still have to move the product away, so there's going to be a lot of rock transporting. What are you going to get out of it? Well, you could go traditional and try and make a lot of heat for a standard power station. This is unlikely since you're adding O2 to rock at a very small ratio, you'll get a little low-grade heat that will mostly just go into warming up your waste product a bit.   

       //cheap oxidizer like oxygen under "cheap" pressure?//   

       The problem is the Earth already got in on this gig. We're used to our current relatively stable atmosphere, but it was different before all the climate change. <link> Go back 2.5 billion years and your candidates for fuel are amazing. There were chunks of metallic iron/manganese lying about the place. The atmospheric pressure might have been 90 Bar, ideal. No oxygen though. Oxygen turns up, and the oxidation starts. All your good candidates have had a few thousand million years to grind around, in and out of water.. there's a reason, even deep underground, that nobody stumbles on a chunk of metallic calcium.   

       All isn't lost though, the world isn't homogeneous, and maybe you can get clever and find some viable further oxidation. Perhaps you get really clever and do it electrochemically, extract a useful voltage from your redox pair. Sadly, life has been in on this gig since before oxygen was a lad. Everywhere a little energy can be gained by swapping oxidation states, life has a full suite of bacteria that do it until the doing is done. The REALLY clever trick was using a remote nuclear fusion reactor to push back up the energetic hill and use the waste product to build stuff. Although the scary graph in Fig 7 of the link suggests that trick makes rock out of atmosphere until... the intercept.   

       What would be just dandy, is if a super-reduced material could be found, maybe in solid, liquid and gas form.
bs0u0155, Mar 08 2018

       //What would be just dandy, is if a super-reduced material could be found, maybe in solid, liquid and gas form.//   

       coal, wood... any hydrocarbon really, by definition.   

       Beyond that, the idea appears to be valid : a partially oxidised metal won't naturally tend towards more oxidation if there's a high catalytic requirement to start the ball rolling.   

       It'd be cool if Silicon had lower-energy oxidation states than SiO2 (no idea if it does or not) - plenty of sand around.   

       Anyways [+], and welcome to the HB [edit: welcome back] [janpeternordin] - paragraph breaks, please.
FlyingToaster, Mar 08 2018

       He/she's been around since 2013.... typing about one word every two weeks, and knitting wire wool jumpers in between.
xenzag, Mar 08 2018

       // any hydrocarbon //   

       We love the smell of napalm in the morning …   

       But alkali metals are much, much more fun.   

       Or chlorine trifluoride … hypergolic with almost everything.
8th of 7, Mar 08 2018

       //hypergolic with almost everything//   

       Sometimes the pure excitement of youth seems unattainable. Sometimes you read a phrase like that and it's back.
bs0u0155, Mar 09 2018

       I had no idea halfbakery had been taken over by trolls, sad...   

       Being mean is something I'm good at, but I'll be the bigger man this time... ....Anyway :Sad...   

       /warming up a bit/   

       ????really???? did you *see* the video (at least 2000K)   

       And yes you may have forgotten the pleasures of daily sex I understand that.   

       (and to still your curiosity I'm a so called "full professor" at a famous University.) Re: Tstate, said **famous** not infamous   

       Salve, and google translate sends its regards regarding your last tete-a-tete. (....Scribo vobis ut ego puto melius lingua)   

       and I have dyslexia and have in old age given up the extra hasssle of trying to hide that unless I'm writing for Nature or similar... "never trust a man who only can spell a word in one way..." Mark T   

       Thanks to all with serious answers (would recommend you to check the oxidation numbers of the components before answering)   

       great humour, great humour   

       But why God must we deal with the Dunning–Kruger effect, isn't cancer enough...
janpeternordin, Mar 09 2018

       //I'm a so called "full professor" at a famous University// Trumpstate? I hear it's tremendous.
xenzag, Mar 09 2018

       // I had no idea halfbakery had been taken over by trolls, sad... //   

       "Join us ... don't be afraid ...."   

       // Being mean is something I'm good at, //   

       You'll fit right in then, like a maggot in a dead cat*....   

       // but I'll be the bigger man this time.//   

       Size isn't important.   

       // /warming up a bit/   

       ????really???? did you *see* the video (at least 2000K) //   

       It's an impressive bit of footage.   

       // And yes you may have forgotten the pleasures of daily sex I understand that. //   

       You misunderstand. [IT] is notorious for having sex multiple times per day, it's just that he's the only one involved.   

       // (and to still your curiosity I'm a so called "full professor" at a famous University.) //   

       There is a certain cachet to being, for example, a half-professor at an infamous University.   

       But still, respect.   

       // Salve, and google translate sends its regards regarding your last tete-a-tete. (....Scribo vobis ut ego puto melius lingua) //   

       <irrelevant Ipsos Lorem muttering >   

       // and I have dyslexia and have in old age given up the extra hasssle of try to hide that unless I'm writing for Nature or similar... //   

       Wasted effort, after all people like [MB] and [bs0u0155] usually have their copies read to them by the attendants in their places of confinement.   

       // "never trust a man who only can spell a word in one way..." Mark T //   

       Nice one.   

       // Thanks to all with serious answers (would recommend you to check the oxidation numbers of the components before answering) //   

       Well, we always do. [MB] is fine as long as you don't use anything more exotic than Sulphur, that way he can count the oxidation on the digits of one hand. (Don't mention Chlorine Tetroxide or he gets peevish, and don't mention his, er, anotomical errata. Centuries of inbreeding will do that, sadly. )   

       // great humour, great humour //   

       Aqueous or Vitreous ?   

       // But why God must we deal with the Dunning–Kruger effect, isn't cancer enough... //   

       Why are wasps attracted to jam ? Same thing.
8th of 7, Mar 09 2018

       yeah, Tstate could be tremendous for people like you, who are "not even wrong". 'Could write rekommendation letter for ya... My letter head will make them sh*t in their pants...
janpeternordin, Mar 09 2018

       //Size isn't important//   

       size DOES matter... she's *lying* to you... sorry to be the one to break it to ya....   

       //daily sex//   

       nope, since in this case sex with yourself and domestic animals does not count...   

       //Aqueous or Vitreous//   

       heard of brittish english "BE" they kinda invented the language   

       //Cl oxides//   

       Dichlorine heptoxide works for me   


       https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ List_of_oxidation_ states_of_the_elements
janpeternordin, Mar 09 2018

       //halfbakery had been taken over by trolls//   

       [8th of 7] is not actually in charge.   

       On a different note, would you be so kind as to post your oxidation states link as a link?
pertinax, Mar 09 2018

       // [8th of 7] is not actually in charge. //   

       Are the Voices In Your Head particularly loud and insistent today, [pert] ?   

       Just go and lie down in a darkened room for a bit. Resistance is Futile. You will be Assimilated.
8th of 7, Mar 09 2018

       One of them is, clearly.
pertinax, Mar 09 2018

       DIY thermic lance. [link]   

       A little garlic bread and your good to go.   

       ... with just a soupçon of punctuation, of course. And an "e". Its a small thing, but important in it's way ...   

       We will be happy to donate a surplus greengrocer's apostrophe', if that will be of assistance...
8th of 7, Mar 09 2018

       anal - just got a new defining standard   

       I have nothing against those with asperger's
janpeternordin, Mar 10 2018

       Yes, very nice served with butter along with steamed salmon fillet.   

8th of 7, Mar 10 2018

       love the smell of bullies crying
janpeternordin, Mar 10 2018

       I've nothing useful to add regarding the merits of the idea itself but I do wonder if burning more stuff & using more oxygen is really the way we want to go, I seem to recall hearing the oxygen in the air is already in decline as it is? so Shirley we should be moving away from fuels that burn.   

       //it would be ironic if the world's "energy crises" could be solved by rocks available to anyone//   

       What energy crisis, or rather "we really shouldn't have one", as I understand it we're practically swimming in it.   

       Radio waves (link to some appropriate prior art.. presumably this includes cosmic background radiation?), infra red, sunlight (solar panels, solar furnaces, etc), water turbines (rivers), wave turbines (sea), wind turbines, thermoelectric generators (seeing as I just suggested we (maybe) not burn stuff for a change I won't add bio-diesel & fuel-alcohol to the list), I would go on, but with my limited education that's all I can think of.   


       Geothermal, I knew there was another one in there somewhere :)
Skewed, Mar 11 2018

       Finnally found a paper showing it should indeed be possible: [link] http://www.minsocam.org/ ammin/ AM57/ AM57_524.pdf
janpeternordin, Mar 12 2018

       From the linked paper ...   

       // much of this discrepancy could be caused by a gross error in the basic thermochernical pararneters lor the aluminum silicates //   

       Now I'm no expert, but this remark on page 1 suggests to me that someone has got something badly wrong, and the authors are really hoping it was someone else. ;-)
pertinax, Mar 12 2018

       //thermochernical pararneters// Those things are dangerous.
MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 12 2018

       i'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones...
Edie, Mar 12 2018


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