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Castles
A modern chess piece for a modern war. | |
This idea is to be used in mainly urban settings.
Design and contruct hundreds of moveable castles. (like the chess piece, one tower). They would have a triangular roof wich would over hang the viewports, to protect from mortars and rockets.
These towers would be 5 stories high and have 5 ft
thick steel reinforced concrete walls. The base would be surrounded by concrete barriers and sand bags. They would be occupied by up to 4 soldiers who would spend a day or two in any given tower.
Each tower would have a weeks food and water supply as well as sanitation services.
To get into the tower a bulldozer which is part of a convoy, would pull out a heavy steel and concrete door at the base of the tower. The soldiers would exit and fresh ones would enter.
The towers would have all the advanced communication equipment. As well as fire control systems and biological/chemical filters.
The towers would be moveable, but once in position would probably be a fixed part of the urban surroundings.
From their perch the soldiers could control a whole city block, they could radio in air strikes or reign fire down with a the towers main armament of miniguns.
I imagine that after a main army force has moved through a city, hundred of these pre-made towers are dragged into place on the street corners, thus controling the city and protecting convoys.
Office Block Chess
Office_20Block_20Chess
by Aristotle. Betterer. [calum, Oct 24 2005]
Helepolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helepolis
[Shz, Oct 25 2005]
Iraqi poll: attacks against police not justified
http://i.a.cnn.net/.../iraq.poll.4.28.pdf
[Madai, Oct 27 2005]
Not Gomer pile.
http://www.defensel...005_2005020407.html
[Madai, Oct 27 2005]
These guys weren't Gomer either.
http://icasualties....if/IraqiDeaths.aspx
[Madai, Oct 27 2005]
Maginot line
http://victorhanson...s/hanson051905.html
If you see how this relates to the maginot line, you get a gold star for the day. [Madai, Oct 27 2005]
RUC Tower
http://www.chrisand...om/belfast/cage.jpg
- common in Belfast and Derry [zen_tom, Oct 27 2005]
Short name, e.g., Bob's Coffee
Destination URL.
E.g., http://www.coffee.com/
Description (displayed with the short name and URL.)
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Towers would be able survive virtual siege conditions. They would have enough ammunition to fight for days. It is higly unlikely that a tower would be siege for a long period of time. Towers would operate in a grid fashion and each tower could support the next. |
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How would they fare against a large truck bomb especially a driverless one? |
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Or a wad of C-4 and one man-hole cover. |
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Very well given the fact that the first 3.5 stories are solid concrete with the exception of a circular stairway running right down the center. The towers are wider and thicker at the base of course. Supplemented by additional concrete barriers. |
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Two things would happen if this system was put into place. |
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1. Insurgents would spend a good deal of time trying to bring down the towers. The would realize that doing so would take more time than it takes for a support fleet of gunships to arrive and relieve the tower. They would take mass lossses and give up. |
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2. Same as the above but after realizing that they cant bring down the towers, insurgents move out of the cities where they are promptly shelled by crusader mobile artilery. |
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How would you move them? 5ft thick concrete 5 stories high sounds awfully heavy. |
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kind of like a moveable bunker ... this is a cool idea .. but wrong century [-]. I don't think the US is having problems in Iraq because of insufficient armor and not enough concrete. They are failing because they don't have people on the ground where it counts... they are forced to be cooked up in their tanks and inpenetrable bases. How would this tower detect insurgents moving explosives and weapons? Kind of like the US green zone ... sure it's very safe there, but if you step outside that's a different story .. you must simply be on the ground. Being in a tank doesn't count. |
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I thought it was because they dont have enough ice. |
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The soldiers in the tower would be there mainly to observe the streets below. They could record and foward all activity on the street. If they see someone place something they send the info to the convoys. 16 soldiers could secure 1 city block and not be in any significant danger. |
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One tower alone would have little effect but hundreds of such towers placed in supporting/dominating positions would compltely control the flow of insurgents and weapons. |
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There is a difference between being in a tank, and being in a building. You control the roof tops and have a dominant position on the street, you control the street. |
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1 wire-guided anti-tank munition (Javelin or Milan) and these things are toast. Effective range 2 km, and with good guidance would run up under the roof and take out your soldiers. |
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No way I'd get in one of these things. They're just big pizza ovens. |
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Those bunker buster bombs that have been used against Al Queda (Qaeda?) caves in the mountains of northern Afghanistan might work as castle busters. |
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Alright last time i checked the insurgents dont have an air force. This is not a stand alone design, it is put into place for enforcement. |
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The idea is a loser, [Antegrity]. |
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Here's another way to destroy the things: Flood the ground around them with petroleum product and then light it. It starves the occupants of oxygen. Dead soldiers. |
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Do you want me to continue to invent ways to get rid of them? |
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You started the idea with the summary: "A modern chess piece for a modern war." |
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I think the mistake is to assume that the next conflict will be against a similar foe to the one currently causing problems in Afghanistan and Iraq. |
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non-similar foe? Like MS13? |
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Or do you mean when the CIA starts making noise about Bin Laden being in Western China? |
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Maybe they could go looking for him in the PRK? |
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This was a very, very good idea... 500 years ago. Mobility is the key to war in the age of mechanism. |
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And you want hundreds of these things? Sounds expensive. |
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Plus, I can't help but feel that the country where these things are built might feel a little bit like they are living in a prison. That creates enemies. |
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Baked a few hundred years BC. It’s called a Helepolis. I was a bit surprised (impressed) to find a wiki entry for this. <link> |
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Read the idea, the towers would have their own fresh air supply, and fire control systems. These towers would be designed to hold off attacks and maintain control on the streets until a main force arrives. If neccessary the soldiers could seal the tower until help arrives. |
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You could occupy a city with 4000 soldiers who would be in relative safety. |
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You say mobility is key to modern warfare, I would like to aim your attention to the fact that the US parks tanks and apcs on street corners and sets them there for hours. |
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The cost would be minimal. No where near the cost of a main battle tank. |
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Like I said, you control the roof tops and hold the dominant position on the street, you control the street. |
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These would be much more effective than what you can see on the news. That is, a couple soldiers mulling around outside a humvee or sitting behind some razor wire and some sandbags. |
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do they have to be steel reinforced? could we not use gfrp and make them lighter? |
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Steel reinforced and armor bolted onto the concrete. |
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So this isn't about waging war with chess instead then? |
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OK then [Antegrity], where in this idea, is this fresh air supply that you claim is mentioned? Are you claiming that there will be several days worth of oxygen inside? |
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And is your explanation for moving a 5 story cuboid made of 5 foot thick steel-reinforced concrete really just "Such equipment exists"? Can you at least provide a reference. Or were you planning of moving these like the pyramids, and just get the Iraqi people to pull them? |
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Cost is minimal? Instead of a tank you want to build something bigger than the average building in many countries, and that will be a minimal cost? |
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And it's a hell of a lot easier to leave a tank standing for a few hours when it is relatively simple to just drive it away again later
</stunned reaction that this is actually a serious idea> |
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They're right, [Ant]. These things would last less than 5 bloody minutes, if you decide to take them out. I didn't realise you were taking it seriously, but you are on the wrong track. I'm guessing you are still in school and haven't yet been taught just how vulnerable lightly manned defensive positions were proven to be, in 20th century conflicts? |
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Read up on the Maginot Line and the Siegfried Line. They were massive examples of what you propose. Where they were actually attacked they were turned into charnel-houses by attacking soldiers with modern weaponry. For the most part they were skirted, rendering them obsolete. |
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If you don't understand the subject then don't post about it, OK? |
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The Maginot, and the Siegfried Lines were largely successes, causing the enemy in each case to alter their strategy and take a second-best option - either due to their actual strength, or the perception of their strength. |
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I think this idea, as a way of occupying a hostile city is actually, rather a good one. I don't agree with occupying hostile cities, but were I to do so, I'd quite like to have a few of these at my disposal. |
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I'd have them bristling with communication and surveillance equipment, manned by sharpshooters and reconnaissance guys, and capable of holding out against attack for weeks. |
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Unfortunately, none of this is anything new. The English have been doing just this in Northern Ireland for years - it's actually quite unnerving to be walking down a perfectly normal road, turn a corner and see a huge towering monstrosity topped with lookout posts, razor wire and unfriendly looking, gun toters - even if they are supposed to be on 'your' side. |
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The latest technological version of the idea would include predator drones that can fly well above an area, conducting surveillance, and, if necessary, engage directly (if firing a missile from 000s of metres can be described as directly) with the enemy. |
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//And it's a hell of a lot easier to leave a tank standing for a few hours when it is relatively simple to just drive it away again later // |
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don't leave it round here, you'll come back and find its on bricks with its tracks removed. |
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Look at the fun everyone is having with this! The thing about modern cities is that they dont start at the ground. There are tunnels and sewers. The bane of towers is sappers. Sapping is even easier if someone has already dug the tunnel. All the reinforcements/fire control/food supply/huge freaking guns/invulnerable I tells you its invulnerable!wont matter if a hole opens up underneath. Gravity always wins. You could extend the tower down to the bedrock but there goes your mobility. |
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The maginot line is a good analogy. If you built one of these things, guerrilas would move away from it. If you set up hundreds!hundreds I tellyou! You cant escape them! the guerrilas would move to another city. |
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As regards fucking rubbish I recommend selecting moist rubbish. |
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I was trying to work out why you would want these in say Bolton, but hey today its Iraq, tomorrow Iran, Bolton will be on the list somewhere. |
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The things you do to get a decent curry. |
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At this stage even if the giant towers worked as antegrity promised, they would be counterproductive. |
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One fallacy inherent in the idea is that you ignore the fact that there are at least three tracks on which we must measure the success in iraq. |
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1. The military track
2. The political track
3. The economic track |
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This is an oversimplification, of course. Militarily, the insurgents cannot win against the US. The US has better firepower, equipment, et cetera. Your idea addresses only the military aspect. |
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The economic track is perhaps the most interesting. One hand, increased wealth in Iraq means more potential funding for the insurgents, with which they can buy weapons, etc. On the other hand, gainfully employed Iraqis, with hope for the future, have more to loose and are thus less likely to conduct operations. |
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Finally, economic success in general helps grease the wheels of the political process. |
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Finally, there's the political process. In case you have haven't noticed, the constitution was approved, but the Sunnis for the most part voted no. |
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22% of the population voted against the constitution. A lot of those voting against are anti-occupation. with the right carrots, of both economic and political nature, we can get most of this 22% to accept the constitution, but, any reminders that they are occupied will slow this process. |
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That's part why the US has been using Iraqi security forces for maintaining security/guarding, while the US forces have been conducting the bulk of the raids. |
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Being guarded by a fellow countryman makes you feel safe. Being guarded by foreigner makes you feel occupied. Had a major disruption of the constitution referendum occured, the US forces would of mobilized, but as it was, the security provided at the constitutional referedum had a very Iraqi face. |
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Towers would be counterproductive on the economic and political fronts. People would see the towers, be reminded they are occupied, and also, wonder why the fuck the US is using all that concrete to build giant tower when the US could instead let Iraqis use the concrete to build more roads, schools, et cetera. |
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These towers not tall enough to do any good in Baghdad, anyway. |
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The maginot line did what it was supposed to do. It was never breached by a frontal assault. It was actually the failure of a country that france thought would put up a fight, that allowed the germans into france. It took the germans a long time to destroy the maginot line after they turned back onto it; that is of couse if you read up on the subject. Fixed fortifications are an important part in modern warfare. Listening to all you guys it sounds like all of the troops spend their days running around. They never stop and sleep, they never set up command centers or patrol check points. All they do all day long is run around, and the tanks are in constant motion. Airplanes never land either, no its modern mobile warfare where nothing ever stops moving and needs to be protected. Its the end of defense. So if there is no defense, then offence is no longer the best defense. You guys have created an interesting problem. |
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This is a military problem because the US already controls the economy and the politics. |
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Politically we control them because we are forcing democracy on them. |
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Economically we control them because we control the oil. |
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"Are you claiming that there will be several days worth of oxygen inside?" NO hidden, there is no way to filter, store or purify air, its just this magical substance that we can't reproduce. I'm glad you cleared that one up. |
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"Being guarded by a fellow countryman makes you feel safe", being killed by fellow countrymen makes you feel even safer. |
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"People would see the towers, be reminded they are occupied"
YEah cause its so easy to forget. |
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"You could extend the tower down to the bedrock but there goes your mobility." Bungston, read the idea again." |
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"And it's a hell of a lot easier to leave a tank standing for a few hours when it is relatively simple to just drive it away again later" Hidden your again correct, the tank drives away and leaves the area to be re-taken. |
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I will use this analogy. I go to a party, I see the cops so I drive around the corner. Sit in the car, talk on the phone, listen to the radio, pray to jesus. Walk around the corner 15-20 minutes later, the cops are gone and the party continues. Now if the cops inturn dragged a huge concrete tower right to the street corner, stored with doughnuts and coffee, I dont think I could go to that party with out them knowing. Hell I could resist. I could create a battering ram and attack the tower. I could get all my friends and lay siege to the tower. That siege would last 20 minutes, cause soon comes the tear gas and mass reinforcements. |
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//This is a military problem because the US already controls the economy and the politics.// |
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That control is *very* tentative, and closely intertwined. |
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//Politically we control them because we are forcing democracy on them.// |
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No, we aren't. No one put a gun to the head of the Iraqis to tell them to vote. In fact, some put guns to the heads of Iraqis and told them *not* to vote. |
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//Economically we control them because we control the oil.// |
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Yeah our control of the oil is going very smoothly. Um, are you nuts? Have you seen a gas station lately? |
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//being killed by fellow countrymen makes you feel even safer.// |
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That's why we've trained the security forces and police there VERY well. The Iraqi police and Iraqi Security forces have a better reputation with the people than the US forces do. Your snarky aside has no substance in the real world. |
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//"People would see the towers, be reminded they are occupied" YEah cause its so easy to forget.// |
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It's not just about forgetting. It's about having to deal with the occupation. It's about not feeling like your being watched. But, moreover, let's say you have girlfriend, and she starts to cheat on you, and then dumps you, insults your manhood, etc. Would you keep her picture around on display?? |
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//the tank drives away and leaves the area to be re-taken.// |
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Fallacy. You assume that a guerilla war is about holding ground. Well, guess what? Unless you set up a checkpoint, any suicide bomber can go anywhere. A friendly local cop can tell what is suspicious and what isn't. A US soldier five stories up in a tower can only watch wondering which people down below are bombers, and which are just civilians late to work. |
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Correction we have put several thousand guns towards several million Iraqi's and told them now that their system of choice is going to be a democratic one. |
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Every report that has come back says that the Iraqis are at best an incompotent fighting force. They lack numbers and training. |
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I'm sick of the the REP's argument that we are fighting in a "coalition". Just like the REP's have token minorities at their rallies, the US army has token troops from other countries, to wave their pathetic flag around. TO make it seem like were not the ones doing everything. It's a farce to say that the Iraqis are well trained and capable of taking care of themselves. |
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Also, havent we learned not to arm the Arabs? All they do, ten years down the road, is turn on us and need to be dealt with again. |
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Madai, how do you suggest the US fights this war? Everything up until now, has been a failure. |
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"The Iraqi police and Iraqi Security forces have a better reputation with the people than the US forces do. Your snarky aside has no substance in the real world." Yeah I would feel real safe being gaurded by GOMER PILE. |
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"A US soldier five stories up in a tower can only watch wondering which people down below are bombers". Yeah but a US soldier with a 50 cal sniper rifle and a high powered scope can drop the man carrying the bomb from a protected position. |
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One thing. Yes I realize that the tower idea is nothing new, in old warfare. But its mass inception, with modern weaponry and technology, has yet to be explored in modern warfare. |
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Have you all missed the fact that these towers would offer support to rolling convoys? I'm not saying that the only soldiers in the city will be up in these towers. Ground patrols would still continue. |
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The real problem with these towers is that they just arent big enough to do the job right. |
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You can do some pretty amazing things with concrete now. The base would be protected from ramming buy additional barriers and sandbags. |
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The final tower design would be subjected to endurance and survivability tests. All towers would be built to a certain standard so as to ease the cost of mass production. |
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//Correction we have put several thousand guns towards several million Iraqi's and told them now that their system of choice is going to be a democratic one.// |
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If you think the situation is this bad... why do you think your towers will improve anything? |
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//Every report that has come back says that the Iraqis are at best an incompotent fighting force.// |
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Absolutely untrue. You need to read more news. |
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//They lack numbers and training.// |
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True, but this is improving. The numbers are going up, and the training+experience is going up. |
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//Madai, how do you suggest the US fights this war?// |
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I have posted one idea, called "chill iraq". In general, I wouldn't change our overall stategy, but we need to be more vigilent, of course, about correcting mistakes, such as prisoner abuse. I wouldn't mind having a member of Red Cross present at all interrogations, provided they only reported on the treatment of the prisoner, and kept their mouths shut about any intelligence gathered. |
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//Everything up until now, has been a failure.// |
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Two elections... one caught dictator... these are failures? Again, you need to read more news. |
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There's plenty of room for improvement with the iraqi police, but here's what the polls say: |
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81% said attacks against Iraqi police cannot be justified. |
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25% said attacks against US forces cannot be justified. |
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Basically, the iraqi police has a MUCH MUCH better reputation than the US forces. |
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All they understand is force. Things were much better off when Sadam was in power. He knew how to take care of these crazies. |
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The following is a republican argument. "We ousted a violent, brutal dictator, who tortured and killed thousands of his own people" So far more iraqi's have died because of the war there, than ever did under Sadam. |
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Thats not the counter to this argument though. The counter is another republican argument. |
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"Terrorists dont should not be protected under the geneva accords". "Or, Only Americans have the right to be treated justly" Thats the same thing Sadam did. |
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If this thread goes on much longer I'm going to put in a plea for him to be transferred to the halfbakery. |
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Just out of sheer curiosity [Antegrity]. Are you trying to seem like a troll? This isn't an accusation, but the vehemance that you are defending an idea that plenty of people have decided that they don't like, isn't likely to win them around. (This is just an observation, I've actually voted [+] on this) |
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Thank you hidden. No I acctually dont expect to change their minds about their vote, I am merely participating in a lively discussion. Its my idea, and im going to protect it. |
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I'm not angry or upset. The "maginot line was a failure" kinda upset me though. |
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//So far more iraqi's have died because of the war there, than ever did under Sadam.// |
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Another blatant falsehood. |
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Low end estimate of Iraqi deaths caused by Saddam is 700k. 400k dead Iraqis in the iraq-iran war, which Saddam started, and 300k Saddam murdered. That's not including the 500k children who died due to sanctions, that produced the infamous Madeline Albright quote. Or the 600k dead iranian soldiers. Or the 1 million dead iranian children used for human wave attacks and mine clearing that was moreso Iran's fault, but would not have happened but for the Iraq-Iran war. |
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But mind you... 700k is the LOWEST estimate. High end goes to 3 million or higher. |
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Highest estimate of postwar iraqi deaths was 194k as of 10/2004. Extrapolate that out, you get 300k tops. |
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But that extrapolation would, of course be total BS, because that high estimate was from the infamous Lancet study that was 95% confident somewhere between 8,000 and 194,000 had died. The media split the difference and insisted 100k had died. Meanwhile, maximum *reported* deaths is at 30k. That is, civilian deaths reported in the news. Obviously the news can't get them all. But puh-lease, how many do you think the news is actually *missing*? 270k? no way. Bodies don't just dissappear. Even assuming the media is missing 80% of the bodies is getting pretty close to silly. The media are very thorough about reporting the number of deaths in Iraq. 150k, then, is what I would call the upper end of *reasonable* estimates of Iraqi dead since the US invasion. Far less than the bare-bones minimum of 700k under Saddam. |
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Now, it is *arguable* that the Iraqis are dying faster on a *per year* basis now than they did under Saddam's average year. I.e. If you buy that the US is killing 100k/year, and saddam , over his 35 years, killed only 20k/year, then you could say that. But if you go by reported deaths, you have 30k over 2.5 years, much less than Saddam's low-end yearly rate. |
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You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Please, do a little fact checking, or at least check your phrasing. |
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<weeps> they are / were people... |
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each and every one of them... |
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You cant use, the Iran-Iraq war, or the people who died under sanctions as due to sadam |
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1st, We supported both Iran and Iraq in their conflict. We gave them both weapons money and inteligence.
2nd those sanctions were put into place by the UN. |
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"Lancet study that was 95% confident somewhere between 8,000 and 194,000 had died." |
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What a retartedly large number gap. Well it could be any where from 1-infinity, we did some reasearch and found out that thats how many people may have died. |
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//You cant use, the Iran-Iraq war// |
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While the nations who supported Saddam share responsibility, it was, in the end Saddam's own choice. To give him a free ride on that war is incredibly intellectually dishonest. |
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//the people who died under sanctions as due to sadam// |
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Uh, yes I can. Instead of building up his economy, he built palaces, and bribed members of the UN security council with oil vouchers. |
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//What a retartedly large number gap. // |
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Exactly. That's why anyone who reads the research has to take the 100k number with a grain of salt. |
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And Po, yes, indeed, they were people. Each and every death was tragic. Moreover, the QUALITY of their lives under a dictatorship was tragic. When the insurgency is defeated. |
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I know it breaks your heart to discuss dead people. It breaks my heart that people are still starving in North Korea and Zimbabwe, among other places. It also breaks my heart that people like Antegrity are so desparate to cast the US in a bad light that they would give murderous dictators like Saddam a free pass. |
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The US has done tons of bad things, and guess what, we're human, and will continue to do bad things. However, all in all, the US is a force for good. Or, perhaps you weren't paying attention when the US sent relief to the Bam earthquake, the tsunami victims, or the recent Kashmir quake. We even sent aid to the people of Cuba due to Wilma. |
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I know it's fashionable to call the US evil, but it shows you're not looking at the big picture. |
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I'm going to see a big picture tonight - it's called "Killer
Zombies versus Whatever Ya Got" |
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So your saying that this form of brutal inforcement. Which one could take this idea as, is not a good thing? |
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You say I am calling the US evil, when I come up with this idea. |
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I dont get what your saying, Madai. |
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Good things done by stupid people.
Evil things done by brilliant people.
Evil things done by stupid people.
Good things done by brilliant people. |
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We are indeed human, and we will continue to make mistakes. But to ignore them on account that we rescue puppies everyonce in a while, is childish. |
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//Madai, how do you suggest the US fights this war?// |
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Step 3: Apologize to the UN. |
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Step 4: Remove all US military personell to a Massive flotilla located at unknown coordinates in the Indian Ocean. |
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Step 5: Let the Democratically Electected Government of Iraq know that, if required, most of the might of the US gov't is behind them in their infancy, but they better grow up quickly, as there are soon to be other world issues that draw more heavily on the scale. |
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Step 6: Go Hard core, in speech (& if neccesary, action) on Iraq's neighbors, (& I mean ANY including Israel) should they threaten Iraq's freedom. |
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// So your saying that this form of brutal inforcement. Which one could take this idea as, is not a good thing? // |
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Excessive brutality, especially at this stage in our Iraqi operations, is a very very bad thing. Yes. Our goals are to make the Iraqi people feel freer, not feel like they are under a police state. In this situation, peoples perceptions are VERY important. |
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// Step 1: Remove Bush. // |
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And replace him with... what? Someone unelected? If we follow the democratic route, Bush will be ending his term in '08, and by then, it will mostly be a moot point. |
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Step 2 is silly. It implies that you are going to remove Bush, and then, let Cheney be president a while, and then slowly build a case up to remove him. Steps 1 and 2 should be combined. Or better yet, you could just wait 'till '08. |
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Step 3 is even sillier. The UN is a scandal-ridden cesspool, and deserves no apology. The UN owes the the WORLD an apology for accepting Saddam's bribes. |
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Step 4 is stupid, as well. it would cost too much to maintain 140,000 troops at sea. Our force projection is adequate to the point we can just bring the troops home, if they are not needed in Iraq itself. |
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Step 5: Yeah, they'll believe that one. That's what nixon promised South Vietnam, right before congress cut the funding and let the North Vietnamese overrun them. You should read some history, because the people you will have to sell your plan to will have. |
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Step 6: This smells like, "threaten yet another country with a pre-emptive strike". You probably mean well, but you've phrased this way to simplisticly. |
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We probably will need deal with Iran, or at least create a credible threat of force. Sure, we can bomb their infrastructure to kingdom come, but that won't do the world any favors. Iran is more populous than Iraq, and the occupation of Iraq was badly handled. Logic dictates we should secure 600,000 troops or so, for a proper occupation of Iran. That will require a HUGE coalition. |
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Realistically, to do Iran right, we will need Pakistan, China, and India all on the same wavelength. At this point, we can retaliate against Iran just fine, but are in no position to credibly carry out a regime-change operation. Anything less would destablize the region, and destroy our progress in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
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Your Israel jab was funny. Israel won't attack US-friendly Iraqi democracy. More likely, they'll use iraq as a refueling stop on their way to bomb Iran. And even that is not likely. |
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//Realistically, to do Iran right, we will need Pakistan, China, and India all on the same wavelength.//
I would be surprised if there is much beyond catastrophic natural disasters (and I am not referring to the incumbent US president) that can get Pakistan and India on the same wavelength. But that is by the by. My question is this: when you say "to do Iran right" what do you mean by "do" and "right"? |
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To defend myself (I shouldn't post while drinking anymore); |
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#1 & 2 --- It is my strong belief that BOTH Bush & Cheney are criminals deserving of being removed following the process established for doing so. |
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The powerful people & businesses aligned with the Bush administration are making too much money off of Iraq to give the administration any incentive to win the war, or withdraw. |
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#3 --- The UN, along with most of Europe, asked us to wait for more appropriate measures to be taken. |
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#4,5, & 6 --- For the very short term. A much shorter term than US forces will remain IN Iraq as it stands now. |
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Yeah, Saddam was probably Evil. The US, which is supposed to be governed by us, the citizens, is responsible for a mounting number of Iraqi deaths (civilian & military) that would compare as a significant fraction of the deaths Saddam caused. |
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We took away their right to political self determination and gave them a different one because we didn't think they were doing it right. |
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I'd be mad as hell if that happened to my country.
I'm pretty mad that 2000 poor families in the US have buried their child due to LIES. |
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We had less wounded US servicemen in the American Revolution than in Iraq. I believe we've also taken 1/2 the death toll of the American Revolution In Iraq. |
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(sorry I went off on a tangent.) |
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"do Iran right" Iran's terrain is vastly different from Iraq. Invading would be a colossal mistake. Unless I am mistaken, they don't have ICBMs & are not currently a threat to US sovereignty. |
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Many things, Calum. War is a horrible thing, and I don't have any info on Iranian particulars, so, mainly I'm talking about not repeating the mistakes we made with Iraq. |
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First, of course, we must neutralize the Iranian regular military. This is the easy part. They'll have guerillas to mount an insurgency for years to come, but any anti-aircraft capabilities, tanks, planes, etc, will be taken care of in a matter of months. |
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Second, and most importantly, we must prevent a humanitarian crisis. We must make sure Iranians get the food, water, and medical attention they need, or they will simply spill over into neighboring countries. |
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Third, but in conjunction with #3, we must prevent looting. Weapons caches, nuclear facilities, and museums, and many other things I can't think of at the moment, must be secured against theifs and vandals. |
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And that's just scratching the surface. Invading Iraq was nightmarish, but didn't impact world security much because the country was already run-down and in a siege mentality. A humanitarian didn't materialize, the iraqi people were well prepared. |
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The iranian people won't be ready for invasion. Many will starve unless the US takes tremendous efforts. |
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India and Pakistan will need to be managed. We obviously do not want to destablize Pakistan, and we will need India's cooperation in order to keep Pakistan together while Iran is stablized. All in all, Iran will be at a minimum 5X more difficult to invade than Iraq. |
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I realy hope we don't have to invade Iran, but if things keep going as they are, we might not have a choice. Saudi Arabia and Europe might end up begging the US to start bombing. |
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Bush knows this. Worse, Iran knows it, that's why they are rattling the saber. There's SOME rational people over there. I'm just worried about how much power the rational ones have over the irrational ones. |
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Hopefully, the threat of force will be enough to get Iran to back down. Right now, the threat of force simply isn't credible. Iran is going to have to piss more people off before a coalition can be built big enough to handle the job. Bush is too discredited. It will be up to his predecessor to take care of it, along with help from as yet unmaterialized allies. |
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I hope that answers your question. I could say more, but I really don't like thinking about the possibility of Iranian war. Back when we were helping them recover from Bam, I was way more optimistic about diplomacy working. Nowadays diplomacy with Iran is looking pretty bleak. |
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Iran's current involvement with Iraq is very complex. Insurgents are infiltrating from Iran, but in small numbers, and with no overt government support. Meanwhile Iranians are a boon to Iraq's tourism industry. |
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It would be ideal if we could treat it as a police action rather than go military. It should be possible to eliminate the terrorists without disrupting the flow of tourists. |
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Of course, the situation is even more complex than I am aware of. I hope you see the bind the US is was in. Saddam was bad enough that the choice was relatively clear. But with Iran, it's way more muddled. |
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I may point out that the "reason" for everyone being upset w/ Iran is supposedly their unwillingness to adhere to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, No? |
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This was agreed to in the 1970 & the treaty asked that non-nuclear nations refrain from developing nuclear weapons in exchange for an eventual nuclear dis-armament by nuclear weapon holding nations. (As I remember it). |
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It's been 35 years, No dis-armament has occurred.
Are we holding up our end of the treaty?
Does anyone make noise about Invading the nuclear holding countries for non-compliance? |
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//It is my strong belief that BOTH Bush & Cheney are criminals deserving of being removed following the process established for doing so.// |
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You can fantasize about this all you want, but unless you can dislodge a LOT of republicans from office, it will remain a fantasy. 2006 might be an interesting year, if the dems get some traction. Frankly I think they are stuck in 2004 mode: They will run on Bush-hate and fail. Bush-hate plays well to a good chunk, maybe 20%, of the population, but turns off the swing voters. Good luck, though. |
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// The UN, along with most of Europe, asked us to wait for more appropriate measures to be taken. // |
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The UN was stalling because they knew the oil-for-food scandal would tarnish them. The UN is in desparate need of reform. You don't seem to be acknowledging this. All your cries of cronyism and halliburton this and halliburton that are absolutely DWARFED by the cronyism and corruption of the oil-for-food scandal. |
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//For the very short term.// Exactly, the short term. We'll have okinawa-style bases in Iraq for a while, at their request, especially if Iran keeps rattling the saber. But the December 15 elections, if they go as smoothly as the constitution vote did, will spell the beginning of the end of the occupation. Already the US-trained security forced have suffered more casualities then the US have: in 2005 alone 2209 have gave their lives fighting against the terrorists. |
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US forces didn't go to war based on "lies". WMD was only one of a laundry list of reasons why we went to Iraq. Look up HJ res 114, the resolution that authorized use of force in Iraq. 296 congressmen voted for it, after seeings the exact same intelligence the pres had. 77 senators, likewise. |
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This war is way bigger than Bush, and your Bush-hate is blinding you to that fact. if you don't believe me, you may want to read up on the riots in France. |
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heh heh, we are posting simultaneously which is bad for long posts. |
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The nuclear issues are just one factor. There's more. Iran is supporter of terrorism. They have done a little bit of cooperation with respect to Al Qaeda, but not enough. They have armed the Palestians in the past, prolonging the horrible conflict and increasing Palestinian loss of life. Iran may see the arms as giving the Palestinians aid, but in the short term, the arming of the Palestinians has proved disastrous for them. |
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In addition to Iran's support of terror, there is the humanitarian issues. Some humanitarian issues are caused by the goverment, such as the political hangings, stonings, etc, but some of them are caused because of the poverty and despair. Iran has a huge brain drain problem, wherein their smartest people leave to become doctors in richer, freer countries. A freer Iran would cause many intelligent expats to come back and help rebuild, as Iraqi expats did in the Iraqi case. |
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The expat situation is a double-edged sword: many iraqi expats, eager to overthrow Saddam, fed bogus intelligence to anyone who would listen. Surely some iranian expats equally hate the theocracy, and are feeding the CIA some bogus lines, in order to try and get some action. |
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So, there's the nuclear issue, the terror issue, and the humanitarian issue, as least. Right now, the situation, horrible as it is, is not bad enough to justify the tremendous cost of a war. But one day, it might be, and we should be prepared to invade Iran in 2009, when Bush is gone, and his predecessor will have to make some hard choices as to how to continue the war on terror. |
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Frankly, I hope it's a dem, like Hillary. She'll castrate the anti-war left, and be tough on terror. Some republicans will whine about her, but she'll get the dems to start taking the war on terror seriously. |
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"WITH, With .. with .. with.... WITHOUT". |
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Make thousands of thse towers. PLace them mnext to each other in the main cities in iraq. Remove most of the main force to go deal with Hugo Chavez. Leave a small mabye 25000 troops in heavily fortified air bases to support the towers. |
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Chavez is not a threat. He was fairly elected. He is a Castro-loving dinosaur. Invading his country would be pointless. As are your stupid useless castles. |
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You are now just as loony as Pat Robertson. Maybe the two of you can form an elite strike force and invade Venezuela. Pat Robertson can drive the Jesusmobile and tow your giant useless tower along behind it. |
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I don't think the towers in the main idea are really worth the cost. Unless these things have deep embedding anchors, it would not be too hard to topple one with enough explosives taking out the ground underneath one side. |
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At least [Madai] & I agree that I despise dubya to a level that may perhaps influence my ability to be objective ([Madai] probably thinks this influence is heavier than do I) |
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If we make any posturing towards Iran, I think we probably cede the defense of Taiwan, If that has not already happened. |
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I don't know China well enough to know their response to our getting into another conflict (We both agree Iran would be much more entangling than Iraq). - Does Beijing have designs on Pyongyang? Seoul? Tokyo? Ha Noi? -- It would be very difficult to oppose them if we were involved in Iran, Iraq, & Afghanistan (or possibly Iran alone). |
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//It took a germans a long time to destroy the maginot line after then turned back onto it; that is of couse if you read up on the subject.// |
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Without looking it up, My memory says the German Army busted the Maginot line at its weakest point in less than 2 days. Once broken through, The blitzkreig philosophy is in conflict with your statement that they had to turn back on the line. Paris fell within weeks of the fall of the Maginot line. |
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Daytime The Maginot Line is attacked and broken at Saarbrucken and Colmar |
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Time Event
Morning French Premier Reynaud, whose government was in exile, resigns.
Daytime British battleship Revenge arrives in Halifax, Canada, with 40 million Pounds Sterling in gold, for safekeeping.
Daytime Germany forms its first specialized night-fighter plane unit.
Daytime Marshal Henri Pétain takes over the government of France. |
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Time Event
Morning France requests an armistice with Germany.
Evening Churchill decides de Gaulle should be recognized as speaking for France, not Marshal Pétain.
Night British Bomber Command launches 138 aircraft on Germany, primarily on oil targets. Only one plane does not return. |
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Time Event
Morning In Canada, Prime Minister Mackenzie King introduces the National Resources Mobilization Act in the House of Commons.
Morning Germany threatens action if Swedish railways don't permit transport of German troops and supplies to Norway.
Daytime Sweden receives notice from Britain indicating that Britain might have to make peace with Germany.
Daytime Churchill speaks to Parliament: “What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. The Battle of Britain is about to begin.”
Daytime French General de Gaulle becomes the leader of "Free France". He refuses to acknowledge Vichy France as a government.
Daytime Russian forces invade the Baltic States.
Evening The Swedish government agrees to allow German troops to pass from Sweden to Norway, via Swedish railways.
Evening General de Gaulle broadcasts on BBC radio, appealing to French soldiers to join him and fight on for France.
Night RAF bombers attack Bremen and Hamburg. |
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Time Event
Night 30 British Blenheim bombers raid German airfields at Rouen and Amiens. All aircraft return. |
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Time Event
Daytime Italy launches an offensive on the Alpine front in the south of France.
Daytime The British Air Ministry sends a directive to Bomber Command, instructing it to focus attacks on German aircraft.
Night 47 British Blenheim bombers raid German airfields at Rouen and Schipol. All aircraft return. |
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Time Event
Daytime France formally surrenders to Germany. |
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China is slowly becoming freer and more capitalistic. I imagine China will reform itself to the point where taiwan is a non-issue, and taiwan gladly reconciles with the mainland. |
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China is not an imperialistic culture. One of the major cultural facets of China is the great wall. Think about it. Rather than just wipe the barbarians out, the Chinese chose to build a wall to keep them out. |
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