Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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Chill Iraq

Cooler Weather means cooler heads.
  (+16, -17)
(+16, -17)
  [vote for,
against]

It is well known that heat-waves cause murders. I believe the same applies to terrorism. Plus, cooler weather would be more comfortable for our troops and the Iraqi people.

There are many potential ways to cool iraq down. I suggest using a variety of techniques. Ice can be shipped from Canada during the northern hemisphere winter, and from antarctica and south america in the sourthern hemisphere winter. Mirrors can be added to city rooftops, spray turbines can be placed in the mediterranean sea and persian gulf, etc etc.

Imported ice can be distributed for free in every major city, dumped by the ton into public parking lots, et cetera.

It will be expensive, of course, but the goodwill generated by cooler temperatures will likely save money overall.

Madai, Jun 01 2005

Murder Rate and temperature http://members.optu...factsandfigures.htm
[Madai, Jun 01 2005]

More Murder and Temperatures http://en.wikipedia...iation_(statistics)
[Madai, Jun 01 2005]

Another link for the Doubters http://www-personal...r/poster/crime.html
[Madai, Jun 01 2005]

Yet another link http://www.psycholo...1995-1999/97ABG.PDF
[Madai, Jun 01 2005]

River River
Create the mother of all water parks. [reensure, Jun 02 2005]

ice harvesting http://www.csmonito...11/p18s01-hfks.html
[Madai, Jun 02 2005]

Winter Freeze Desalinization http://www.wmconlon...eze%20desalination'
[Madai, Jun 02 2005]

Why Free Ice would be extremely welcome http://www.riverben...ndblog_archive.html
[Madai, Jun 06 2005]

The Iraqis aren't used to the heat. http://www.riverben...ndblog_archive.html
[Madai, Jun 06 2005]

Albedo: For Susan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo
[Madai, Jun 06 2005]

Yeah, I really don't think they like heat. http://www.washingt...9423-2004Jul27.html
If not making them kill, its making them squirm pretty good. [daseva, Jun 07 2005]

Iraq, Ice and Wind. http://english.alja...2F-8745D662B3A1.htm
Discussion of Iraqi architecture, 4000 BC until ? [reensure, Jun 07 2005]

Baghdad: 6635 "suspicious" deaths http://www.timesonl...4-1376189_1,00.html
[Madai, Jun 09 2005]

spray turbines http://www.mech.ed....n%20paper%20Feb.pdf
[Madai, Jun 09 2005]

Help from a different angle Steaming_20fountain...scraper_20sculpture
And its a shape they are familiar with. [Susan, Jun 25 2005]

[link]






       //It is well known that heat-waves cause murders. I believe the same applies to terrorism.//. Proof required.
//Ice can be shipped from Canada during the northern hemisphere winter, and from antarctica and south america in the sourthern hemisphere winter.// Erm, how?
//Mirrors can be added to city rooftops//What for?.
//Imported ice can be distributed for free in every major city, dumped by the ton into public parking lots, et cetera.//How?.
The author has confused the concept of 'shipping ice' with the hit-and-miss concept of changing the weather. The basic premise is also flawed.
Maybe all the Iraqis are killing all the Americans because they are all really hot?. Get a grip!.
gnomethang, Jun 01 2005
  

       from the website:
//Can heatwaves increase the murder rate? In New York in 1988 the temperature stayed above 32°C for 32 days and the murder rate soared by 75%. In Australia, Marble Bar (WA) recorded maximum temperatures equaling or exceeding 37.8°C (100°F) on 161 consecutive days (between 30 October 1923 and 7 April 1924) - This remains a word heat record. Also of note is the 333 consecutive days of temperatures above 32°C (90°F) recorded at Wyndham (again in WA) in 1946.//
One swallow does not a summer make, my old china!. You have two events happening coincidentally in one location once. What do you mean to prove?. This is also the least of your worries in this fatally flawed, technically undescribed and xenophobically obvious posting.
gnomethang, Jun 01 2005
  

       Likewise, Americans wouldn’t kill so many Iraqis if they stayed home, since it’s generally cooler in the US.
Shz, Jun 01 2005
  

       From the wiki website://The answer is neither — ice cream consumption and murder are both at least partially caused by hot weather.//. Maybe - prove it. You aren't getting the point, are you?
gnomethang, Jun 01 2005
  

       Shipping ice is easy. They did it in the old days before refridgeration. Just load ice onto a ship, and send it.   

       Mirrors prevent light energy from being turned into heat energy, thusly reducing the infamous urban heat island effect. (I hope you've heard of that at least)   

       Distribution of the free ice would be logistically complex but not impossible. After all, no bananas are grown in Iowa and yet they are available all year round here.   

       As for the Insurgency rates, think about it. Heat makes people irritable. If it's 120 degrees outside, and you had a choice between laying on a pile of ice cubes or fighting US forces, what would you choose?   

       Obviously, there are other reasons behind the insurgency, but support will be weakened for the insurgency if people are to busy enjoying the free ice to bother supporting the insurgency.   

       And where is the xenophobia? I believe everyone of every race, creed, or whatever, gets ornery when it's too hot out. And anyone would appreciate the good intentions of free ice for the taking.   

       As for me not going over the technical details, this idea does not depend on the technology. And I believe you are especially irritable because you are too hot. What's the temperature out by you, gnomethang?
Madai, Jun 01 2005
  

       About 15 DegC outside, 20DegC indoors. My main problem is an assumed correlation between heat-waves and terrorism. This is pure conjecture. It is also very easy (read lazy) to make this correlation and proceed to your proposed solution.
I realise that ice can be picked up from the polar region, transported to a hot location and dumped somewhere (I also agree that it will be very expensive but would go further to say that it will be prohibitively expensive!).
What I disagree on is your choice of words regarding cooler weather. You are not creating cooler weather.
As for the xenophobia side I may have been a bit harsh tarring you with the same brush as Dubya. It reads a bit 'hotheads = terrorists, hotheads = Muslims ergo.....'.
It must also be said that your two first links did not prove anything. I'll read the next two in a moment. It might seem obvious that heat (or heat-waves as you call them) cause murders but there are other factors that need to be considered.
gnomethang, Jun 01 2005
  

       It depends on how much ice you use. I think benign, intentional weather modification is possible. I know that unintentional weather modification happens.   

       And as for the correlation between heat waves and terrorism, obviously, terrorists will be terrorists no matter what temperature. It's a hearts and minds thing.   

       Ice will make the Iraqi people grateful to the US and less cooperative with terrorists.   

       As for the correlation being lazy, that is why this idea is HALF-BAKED.
Madai, Jun 01 2005
  

       Albert Camus comes to rescue [madai], at least when it comes to judging whether there's a causal link between murder and heat: one of Camu's existentialist characters - from the novel "the stranger" - kills a man who he'd never known before, on basis of discomfort caused by heat and a blinding sunlight. subsequently, the killer is judged for his misdeed, and he argues that he has no fault, since his action was dictated by the stress of heat and light. of course, the court doesn't accept that as a logical reason for someone to kill, and he is convicted for murder and executed in a public square. Most critics agree that the idea was to expose the absurd of the impact of natural laws and of society upon an individual's existence. that absurd consequence is what [madai] tries to fight by posting this idea, and gets a bun for that   

       now when it comes to shipping ice, my guess is that airconditioning is much more expensive than that.
sweet, Jun 01 2005
  

       In my experience, crime is deterred by extreme weather conditions. Less brake-ins when raining, less brake-ins when very hot. Normal weather=equals normal crime rate. But what is normal anyway.
zeno, Jun 01 2005
  

       I vaguely remember someone had a plan to cool a city in a hot region (possibly in the middle east) by building huge evaporative cooling towers.   

       Water was pumped to the top of each tower which then trickled down corrugated sheets. Wind would blow through the towers and thus the wind's temperature was lowered.
xaviergisz, Jun 02 2005
  

       If you made a room with all surfaces mirrored, placed a candle in the center, lit it; and the candle went out (assume the room was airtight) , would it ever get dark in the room?   

       [Madai] Fountains for Peace? +
Zimmy, Jun 02 2005
  

       Well, Zimmy, I don't think any mirror perfectly reflects light(although they reflect far more than non-mirrors). Plus photons can be absorbed by dust particles in the air, etc. the candle itself may produce such dust. Since light travels so fast, it would likely look dark as soon as the light goes out.   

       Air conditioning might be cheaper than delivered ice, but the disadvantage is that air conditioning pumps heat around, it warms up the environment by cooling down the inside of buildings.   

       If the ice is made elsewhere, the heat the water looses in the freezing process is not added to Iraq's enviroment.
Madai, Jun 02 2005
  

       In short, a vast amount of effort for an uncertain and probably miniscule effect. Very halfbaked indeed, perfect. +
moomintroll, Jun 02 2005
  

       Miniscule? I beg to differ. Ice is pure water, in fact the israelis are working on "winter freeze desalinization".   

       So, once the ice melts, it is useful as drinking water. If we can get 25 million tons of ice shipped to iraq in a year, any drinking water problems they have would be solved. Bathing/washing/industrial water, of course would still not be perfect, but 1 ton = 2000 pounds = 250 gallons = well over half a gallon a day to drink.   

       Oddly enough it just so happens that 25 million tons of ice was shipped abroad by the US in 1890, back before refridgerators were invented.
Madai, Jun 02 2005
  

       What [moomintroll] said. This idea is madder than a box of frogs. [+]
wagster, Jun 02 2005
  

       /Less brake-ins when raining/   

       There should be more, owing to the fact that wet weather is prefered by burglar-types. Wet weather means more abient noise, less visibility, and fewer would-be onlookers wandering about outside. Perfect conditions for burglarising.   

       As for the idea, I think the cost-benefit ratio is iffy at best. Neutral.
Texticle, Jun 03 2005
  

       The unintended consequences of non-violent intervention are likely to be more benign than the inevitable side-effects of any violent action. This idea is worth trying.
farble, Jun 03 2005
  

       No, Madai, you've got it wrong. It's not heat, it's the language. Scientists have shown that the Persian Gulf languages are conducive to extremely thick beards, and in turn, people with beards, according to magazines, have little credibility. Especially the men.   

       Clearly, the solution is to fly over there and drop leaflets that show how things should be pronounced and mis-spelled the american way, y'all, and that alone will influence the beard frontier to regress back to the point where western insecurity can feel comfortable that everyone else is thinking the same way they are, therefore they must be right.   

       Of course, once you've cleansed the world, you can redeploy exactly the same strategy to other aspects of your homophobia, and make sure everyone else isn't gay or anything threatening like that.
Ian Tindale, Jun 03 2005
  

       [sweet] - wow. That's not what I got from the book at all. Maybe I should read it again. And 'Catcher in the Rye.'   

       Aptly enough, the stranger killed an arab.
Detly, Jun 03 2005
  

       Indeed, [detly]. I think that the man himself summarised the book with the notion that "any man who does not cry at his mother's funeral risks being sentenced to death"
gnomethang, Jun 03 2005
  

       Said character's name: Meursault. What a great guy.   

       //Most critics agree that the idea was to expose the absurd of the impact of natural laws and of society upon an individual's existence.//   

       Existentialism stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts. The book was a "tour de force" of the existentialist put to death, and how he deals with that. Indeed, every man is put to death the moment he is born.   

       "I had only to wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate"   

       Great last line of said novel.
daseva, Jun 03 2005
  

       Murdoch, why are you offended? There is no rational reason to be offended. Is it like gnomethang, were you mistook my idea for some sort of xenophobia? Plus, I have devoted far more time to thinking about the Iraqi situation that you, because I, unlike you, know that more water, even if it arrived at first at ice, would be EXTREMELY welcome.   

       Your attacks are very out of place, and oddly enough, can be applied to most of your ideas. But that's not the kind of halfbakery I want.
Madai, Jun 03 2005
  

       This smacks of racism and social darwinism. [-]
Blumster, Jun 03 2005
  

       Political issues aside, run a pipeline to the ocean, use the oil in Iraq to generate power and freeze the water into giant blocks of ice.   

       Also, if you grew up in 120 degree heat, it might not feel as hot as you think....
Giblet, Jun 04 2005
  

       In a world starved for nutrition to think properly; in a world starved for information that can help them make daily lucid decisions.   

       In a world of lousy food distribution, where 25% is wasted to start with; in a world full of cheap video cameras to spread the truth, I gotta wonder.
mensmaximus, Jun 04 2005
  

       What [Giblet] said. There isn't a direct correlation between murder rate and temperature (eg murder rate at 30C is twice that at 20C). What may be true is that if temperatures rise above what you are used to for a prolonged period, you will become stressed and more likely to kill. Hence the average Iraqi will be least likely to kill at the temperature he or she is accustomed to.   

       This is, being interpreted, if you randomly decide to freeze someone else's country, they're gonna be seriously pissed off with you.
david_scothern, Jun 04 2005
  

       //Is it like gnomethang, were (sic) you mistook my idea for some sort of xenophobia? //.
No, mate!, I suggested that the basic premise was flawed, the solution unworkable and that the whole package contained a xenophobic ambition. I haven't seen much to change my mind.
gnomethang, Jun 04 2005
  

       People get used to warm temperatures over time. The 'feeling hot' problem arises either in a heat wave, or when you move from a cooler climate to a warmer one.   

       [Such as going from the US to Nicaragua in, say, 1986]   

       [Or going from the US to Sudan in, say, 1998]
not_only_but_also, Jun 06 2005
  

       [Or when one country persists in continually meddling in the affairs of another unrelated country as if it's their duty and right to do so]
Ian Tindale, Jun 06 2005
  

       zing
Blumster, Jun 06 2005
  

       Even though I grew up with 40C summers, I still ain't used to it. I hate the heat, and I love the cold. I want to move to Canada, where my father was born. Or Denmark, where his parents were born.   

       Any excuse to wear my longcoat.
Detly, Jun 06 2005
  

       Blumster, where is the racism? Seriously? That's just silly, especially after I have already said I believe any race would crack under the heat.
Madai, Jun 06 2005
  

       Yeah, I'm sold on it. Let's give 'em a bunch of ice.
daseva, Jun 06 2005
  

       //I believe everyone of every race, creed, or whatever, gets ornery when it's too hot out. And anyone would appreciate the good intentions of free ice for the taking.//
I try never to ignore a possibillity to relieve someone of belief. I have a low bloodpressure. As soon as the temperature rises I feel like I'm hooked up to a drip with 'uppers'. And I'm lactose intolarant.
  

       More jewels found://Mirrors prevent light energy from being turned into heat energy,//. Please explain this to the boyscouts and the firebrigade.   

       //Ice will make the Iraqi people grateful to the US and less cooperative with terrorists.// Yes, gratefull for the energy to use which ever way they please...   

       //Plus photons can be absorbed by dust particles in the air// I would like to here the science behind this.   

       Final note: //Plus, I have devoted far more time to thinking about the Iraqi situation that <than?> you..//
This is silly. How could you possible know how much time [Murdoch] has devoted to thinking about Iraq? Reading [Murdoch]s annotation I'm thinking that he has devoted far more time to thinking about this problem than you since he seems to know there is far more to solving the 'Iraq problem' then just giving them ice.
  

       I on the other hand object to this Idea on the basis that it will create even more water to be distributed to where it does not belong.
Susan, Jun 06 2005
  

       //I on the other hand object to this Idea on the basis that it will create even more water to be distributed to where it does not belong.//   

       So, it's better for people to die of heat exhaustion or die of thirst than for water demand to be met?   

       //I have a low bloodpressure. As soon as the temperature rises I feel like I'm hooked up to a drip with 'uppers'.//   

       Fine, allow me to rephrase: I believe most people get ornery when it is hot out, and the few people that do not show no discernable trend of race, creed, or color, thus, my idea remains non-discriminatory in spirit.   

       //Mirrors prevent light energy from being turned into heat energy//   

       It's quite simple: light is a form of energy. Light turns into heat when it is no longer light. Thusly, when light mostly retains it original form, less of it has been turned to heat. I suppose if you wanted to be picky, you could say mirrors delay, and change the location where light is turned into heat. See the link: Albedo for more information on this. A mirror works like snow(as far as albedo is concerned) only mirrors don't melt as easily. See the section of black carbon for the dust effect.   

       Finally, I do realize giving them ice won't solve *all* the problems. But it will help with quite a few problems.
Madai, Jun 06 2005
  

       Somewhere potamophobics (abnormal and persistent fear of rivers or running water) are welcome and their dusty tents are shared, I reckon.
reensure, Jun 07 2005
  

       The nuclear winter idea is far more hype than science. Have a closer look.
Detly, Jun 07 2005
  

       I've got a book somewhere that shows an old method of making ice in the desert. (I've been searching for it for several months).   

       It claims that by putting up a wall blocking out southern solar rays & also locating the wall so that wind will not evaporate the water behind it, night time heat radiation will eventually cool the water enough to ice it.   

       I have been trying to find this on the net for the last several months unsuccessfully as well.   

       Bless you, Bless you [Madai]! I found it!   

       It says: Ice walls, another ancient method of passive cooling, had been used in the deserts of the Middle East & in the East Indies up to the early part of this century to make ice during nonfreezing weather. The long east- & west oriented earth walls prevent direct solar gain on shallow troughs of water located on the shaded north side. At night, the water radiates long-wave heat energy to deep space. The ice wall allows air stratification in the wind shadow. Insulation of the trough from the earth isolates the water from the ground temperature. Buttresses, perpendicular to the wall, structurally reinforce it & prevent solar gain from the east & west, helping to still air movement. Two or more parallel ice walls also aid air stratification between them. Temperatures well below ambient air are possible.
Zimmy, Jun 07 2005
  

       Bubba, to counter your points:   

       1. This makes things easier. Store ice from the winter so that it is available in summer.   

       2. Shipping is highly efficient. And refridgeration processes give off heat. And Iraq needs more water.   

       3. It's way more complicated than that. While there are certainly some people who have been completely radicalized, there are also fence-riders. For one would-be insurgent, the final straw that causes him to take up arms could be when his dear grandmother dies of heat exhaustion because of the US's energy rationing. I think if I had to suffer through a hot summer with less than half a day of electricity I'd be willing to kill too. But if I had plentiful ice, I wouldn't be suffering- I'd work on my tan and sip cool beverages. Also, for a quasi-pro-US Iraqi, the ice could be the difference between a juicy tip to a weapons cache, or apathy. Hearts and minds.   

       4. I would at first focus on where the people are. I would use a combination of methods to counteract the urban heat island effect. Also, it's not just a matter of cooling, it's also the increased cloud cover, etc.   

       5. As of this writing the idea stands at +14, -15, basically, even. And there is still active posting. Heck, 4 people posted right after you.   

       I know this isn't a magic bullet for Iraq. Nothing is. It will take a lot of time and money to fix things in Iraq no matter what we do.
Madai, Jun 07 2005
  

       Do you honestly not understand that people in hot countries are used to the heat?
david_scothern, Jun 07 2005
  

       If this is what you call getting "used to" it. (linky)   

       N.B. (From linked article) "Last summer, the intense heat contributed to outbreaks of street violence in several cities. Angry mobs clashed with foreign troops, blaming the occupation forces for failing to restore power and asserting that after the Persian Gulf War in 1991, Saddam Hussein's government had the electricity working again within weeks."   

       Okay, silly people, time to accept. What's great about ice rather than power air conditioning is that terrorists will blow up transformers all day, perpetually screwing the city developers, but I just don't see them running around dumping boiling water all over huge blocks of ice. I think huge tankers from antartica, all those ice shelfs falling off could be put to use, rather than just serving as huge floating islands for lost penguins.
daseva, Jun 07 2005
  

       David_scothern, here, if you can't listen to me, listen to an iraqi:   

       From link: "The Iraqis aren't used to the heat"   

       //An insurmountable combination of heat and family issues has kept me from blogging and I’m feeling terribly guilty. I have actually started to avoid the computer which seems to look at me reprovingly every time I pass by.   

       The heat is unbearable. It begins very early in the day and continues late into the night. You’d think that once the sun has set, the weather would cool appreciably- no such thing in Baghdad. Once the sun sets, the buildings and streets cease to absorb heat and instead begin to emanate it. If you stand a few centimeters away from any stucco or brick wall, you can feel the waves of heat coming at you from every crack and crevice.   

       The electricity has been quite bad. On some days, we’re lucky to get 12 hours- 3 hours of electricity for three hours of no electricity- but more often than not, it’s four hours of no electricity and two hours of electricity. A couple of weeks ago, there was a day when our area had only one hour of electricity out of 23 hours with no power. The hellish weather had everyone out in their gardens by sunset, trying to find a way to stay cool.   

       Incidentally, one of man's greatest creations is definitely the refrigerator. I’ve made it a habit to rush into the kitchen every time anyone shows any inclination for a cool beverage. It gives me a great excuse to stand in front of the refrigerator for a couple of moments and let the cool- albeit slightly odorous- refrigerated air surround me. When we have some generator electricity, we keep the refrigerator working. At night, the refrigerator not only provides chilled air, and cold water, but it also offers that pale yellow light which falls like a beacon of hope across the darkened kitchen…//
Madai, Jun 07 2005
  

       Spladinkle, um, you're soapboxing just as much as Bubba. Meanwhile, the insurgents are murdering innocent iraqis. I don't think following the koran is very important to them.   

       It's way more complex than EITHER of you are making it out to be.
Madai, Jun 07 2005
  

       [Maidai] the link for me does not work. Also note that I did not accuse you of being discriminating. I like the way you put in the word "most" though.   

       I do not think that bringing them ice will solve the water problem. The problem right know is that the water in Iraq is not being transported. Which means they do have water but that is not your premises. You posted an idea on how ice would 'Chill' the hotheaded Iraqies. As you stated several times the matter is far more complex so why give such a simple solution (which effectiveness can be debated) to such a complex problem?   

       [Spladinkle] It does not say in the Koran that Islamics should kill al non islamic. The profet Mohammed called on his people (at that time the holy city was being threatened by plunderers and the moslimic way of life also) to fight 'the holy war'. He did not say "go forth and destroy/conquer the world and all those who oppose our way of thinking". That was the Christian thing.(you could try googling for Salladin if your interessted)
You have been listening to much to the fundamentalist Imans who pray on peoples ignorance and their inabillity to, for example, read and write.
  

       Right now the conflict is mostly between the soennistic minority who were in power under Hoessein and the Sji-ittic majority who would like to go on building a democratic way of life. In between are the extremists who would like to keep people dum so they are more easily opressed.   

       Meanwhile in the antartic, those "useless" blocks of ice are a sign that there has been enough fiddling with the earths climate. I still remember when Miximatoses was the next best thing to hunting down rabbits in Australia. People just don't think things through.
Susan, Jun 07 2005
  

       By the way: the link to the weblog does not prove the Iraqies can't stand the heat. It proves that someone in Iraq can't stand it. The person might not even be IN Iraq. Weblogs are not evidence. I could create a weblog about Antartica, uplink it so it looks like its from antartica and vadavoom. You shouldn't believe everything you read.
Susan, Jun 07 2005
  

       Well, you gotta read nonetheless. At least, it helps.   

       The evidence has mounted, and I find the last bits of resistance to this idea to be a bit of a nuisance.   

       In fact, the whole damn thing is baked (though not free):   

       //In the shops, merchants depend on daily supplies of ice blocks, produced round-the-clock in local factories and delivered early in the morning on dripping flatbed trucks or wooden handcarts. The price of ice, once about 25 cents a block, has shot up since most factories had to purchase large generators last year to keep up production; now a single block can cost $2 retail on delivery.//   

       I like ideas that have even voting at maturity.
daseva, Jun 07 2005
  

       I've been following a lot of the major Iraqi weblogs. They have verified each other, and the identities of several have been verified in mainstream press. Riverbend is definately anti-occupation, and has a clear slant, but she is not lying outright. Too many people would call her out if she was lying.   

       Just do a websearch on "riverbend iraq" if you want to try and verify who she is. I don't see her motivation in lying about the heat.
Madai, Jun 07 2005
  

       I for one prefer a dry heat to high humidity with high temperatures. The ice shipped in most likely will not lower temperatures but only melt in the Iraqi heat causing more humidity. If, as I believe, humidity causes uncomfortableness then you are causing more stress than before by shipping in ice. It would be more usefull to ship solar panels and wind powered generators that can power cooling devices such as refrigerators and the sort.
MrDaliLlama, Jun 08 2005
  

       Invention of refrigeration - lager beer - beerhall putsch was the sequence of events as I'm told.
mensmaximus, Jun 08 2005
  

       //If you look at the history of Islam you will find nothing peaceful about it.//   

       Islam, England (or the UK), USA, Russia, Japan, China - in fact, pretty much all of Africa, Europe and Asia - the Aztec Empire, New Zealand... oh, wait.   

       [Splad] - nothing you said seemed to have any relevance whatsoever to [UB]'s post, correct or not.
Detly, Jun 08 2005
  

       Ice has a moderating effect on humidity. At a dry extreme, you're right, ice would surely add to humidity, but in a humid climate, the water vapor already in the air would form dew on the ice, for a net drop in humidity.   

       Meanwhile, a little extra humidity for iraq would increase comfort, by reducing dust storms.
Madai, Jun 08 2005
  

       [Maidai] //I don't see her motivation in lying about the heat.// Reading this I'm starting to think you do not take the time to really comprehend what someone writes. It is the same as with your remark about discriminiation.   

       //but in a humid climate, the water vapor already in the air would form dew on the ice, for a net drop in humidity// I live by the seaside. This event has yet to occur here and in any case Iraq does not have a humid climate. You are continually rebutteling with arguments that do not relate to the given paramaters for your idea to be effectuated.   

       [daseva] //Well, you gotta read nonetheless. At least, it helps.// I do not have to read anything and what would it help?   

       //The evidence has mounted,// What evidence? I have yet to see evidence that shows this idea would be worth trying.
// and I find the last bits of resistance to this idea to be a bit of a nuisance. //
You seem to be treating this ongoing debate about the usefullness/workeabillity of this idea as a childish fight about wrong versus right. In the spirit of the Halfbakery [Maidai] posted an idea, and some of us cordially pointed out the major flaws. It is up to [Maidai] to prove us wrong. Prefferably with something other than 'Its like that, its just the way it is."
Susan, Jun 08 2005
  

       Bad day, huh, [Susan]? Get it out, girl. Get it out.
daseva, Jun 08 2005
  

       Unfathomable, the way you seem to be able to find the crux [daseva].
Susan, Jun 08 2005
  

       Misinformed? Misinformed??!!?!?   

       If you don't think those penguins are lost, then I wanna know what the hell's going on. They're headed for death, man! Nobody, and I mean nobody fares the sea on a piece of the Ross and lives to tell about it...   

       [Susan], that is the thickest sarcasm I've heard in a while. Brava!
daseva, Jun 08 2005
  

       [Bubba] //I've lived all of my life in places as hot as, or hotter than, Iraq (in northern Australia).//   

       Did you live there with spotty electricity, and lack of proper AC, water, ice, etc? Or did you live there with all the standard modern conveniences?   

       //Australia's a pretty hot place in summer, yet it has a murder rate that runs to about 130 people per year, out of a population of 20 million. Of those, about 55% are down to domestic violence.//   

       And there is a well know connection between population density and murder rate. I know that temperature is nowhere near the full story on murder rates. It's just one tiny little piece of a big puzzle.   

       //Even more interesting is that average temperatures around the world have climbed in the last 40 years, at a time when murder rates have plummeted, by up to 40% in many parts of the US and the rest of the world.//   

       Improved economies reduce murder rates, and the worldwide economy has vastly improved over the last 40 years. However, as I said before, it's just another piece of a BIG puzzle. Meanwhile, I suspect the measures I propose will improve the Iraqi economy.   

       //In fact, Baghdad now has a lower annualised murder rate than any major US city.//   

       We use different definitions of murder, I think. But, that in mind, let's go over the stats:   

       New York is more populated than Baghdad. There were 572 murders in New York.   

       //Figures compiled at the central mortuary, on file and indisputable, shine a light through the murk of estimate and rumour surrounding casualty rates in Iraq. Of the 6,635 suspicious deaths in Baghdad recorded this year at the city’s Medical-Legal Institute, the complex incorporating the central mortuary, more than 75 per cent were killed by a bullet. Stabbing is the next most common cause of death.//   

       I saw the article from which you took your fact of the murder rate. It was *NOT* up-to-date, it was from 2003.   

       Which, you know, leads me to think you should follow your own advice:   

       //How about doing a bit of research before making sweeping generalisations about things you simply don't understand?//   

       Murdoch: //Oh, and BTW, Iraq's drinking water shortages are the result of the country's infrastructure having been run down over a quarter of century under Saddam and then having the shit bombed out of them by Iraqis and US/UK forces. 30 years ago Iraq was getting along quite nicely, thank you, without large-scale deliveries of ice.//   

       I know this. And I'm not suggesting we continue ice shipments after the country's infrastructure is repaired. But FOR NOW, shipping in massive amounts of ice would be a good idea. This is a TEMPORARY solution to an constantly evolving multifaceted problem.   

       Susan: //[Maidai] //I don't see her motivation in lying about the heat.// Reading this I'm starting to think you do not take the time to really comprehend what someone writes.//   

       You can't even get my name right. Kinda weakens your case in talking about reading comprehension.   

       //I live by the seaside. This event has yet to occur here and in any case Iraq does not have a humid climate. You are continually rebutteling with arguments that do not relate to the given paramaters for your idea to be effectuated.// Read more closely. I said, ice has a MODERATING effect on humidity. And I *SAID* Iraq is not humid. And I'm sorry, but your comment is a not-sequiter. You may live in a humid climate, but has anyone tried to dehumidify it by using ice? I doubt this. Rarely do people care enough about humidity to go to such lengths.   

       Meanwhile, you have to understand that basics of the dew point. If it's 90 degrees outside, and the dew point is 70, dew will form on any surface below 70. Dew is water being taken out of the air, i.e. reduced humidity.   

       Try this: Take big funnel and an empty milk jug. Put a pound of ice in the funnel, and balance the funnel over the jug. Put it in a temperature/humidity controlled room, with LOW humidity. wait 24 hours(hopefully the ice will all melt). Measure the amount of water in the jug. Now repeat the experiment, on HIGH humidity, same temperature, wait the same amount of time. I can absolutely guarantee you there will be more water in the jug in the high humidity scenario. You might even end up with more water in the jug than ice you started with.   

       //In the spirit of the Halfbakery [Maidai] posted an idea, and some of us cordially pointed out the major flaws. //   

       And some, not so cordially, in case you haven't noticed. I wouldn't say you went out of your way to be cordial, Murdoch has been anything but cordial, and UnaBubba has downright shocked me with his uncharacteristically antagonistic reaction.   

       Not that I mind, just stating the facts.
Madai, Jun 09 2005
  

       15,000 dead or wounded American casualties in Iraq to date.
mensmaximus, Jun 09 2005
  

       Sorry about miss spelling your name.   

       1) The basis for your idea://It is well known that heat-waves cause murders. I believe the same applies to terrorism.//
Your answer://obviously, terrorists will be terrorists no matter what temperature. It's a hearts and minds thing//
  

       2)//Plus, cooler weather would be more comfortable for our troops//. My answer: You cannot change the weather locally. Shipping ice will not make Iraq's climate colder.
[Zimmy] gave a solution that might help far better in obtaining ice.
  

       3)Your solutions or means of achieving:
//Mirrors can be added to city rooftops// Your answer://I suppose if you wanted to be picky, you could say mirrors delay, and change the location where light is turned into heat//
  

       3//There are many potential ways to cool iraq down. I suggest using a variety of techniques.//
Your suggestion (besides the ice and mirrors):
//spray turbines can be placed in the mediterranean sea and persian gulf, etc etc.//
This still requires some explaining.
  

       Other:
//And some, not so cordially// Thats why I said some of the halfbakers.
//and UnaBubba has downright shocked me with his uncharacteristically antagonistic reaction//
Maybe you offended him by calling him Bubba? Although I thought he reacted in manner that was quite uncharactaristically mild.
Susan, Jun 09 2005
  

       Susan:   

       1). I have said *way* more than that on the subject. A sampling:   

       //Obviously, there are other reasons behind the insurgency, but support will be weakened for the insurgency if people are to busy enjoying the free ice to bother supporting the insurgency.//   

       //It's way more complicated than that. While there are certainly some people who have been completely radicalized, there are also fence-riders. For one would-be insurgent, the final straw that causes him to take up arms could be when his dear grandmother dies of heat exhaustion because of the US's energy rationing. I think if I had to suffer through a hot summer with less than half a day of electricity I'd be willing to kill too. But if I had plentiful ice, I wouldn't be suffering- I'd work on my tan and sip cool beverages. Also, for a quasi-pro-US Iraqi, the ice could be the difference between a juicy tip to a weapons cache, or apathy. Hearts and minds.//   

       2. You most certainly *can* change local weather. There is a well-documented urban heat island effect. And trees change local weather, by providing shade, and whatnot. I agree the ice walls are interesting.   

       3.(first) Again, I explained this in much greater detail, and provided a link. The link is "Albedo: for Susan" Basically, mirrors act the same way snow does: they reflect light, rather than absorb it.   

       3.(second)Heh, you're the first to ask about spray turbines in the annotation. They are a relatively new, untested contraption. I will add a link for it, look for "spray turbines".
Madai, Jun 09 2005
  

       Finally! were on the topic again. Sorry if this sounds condescending but I was beginning to feel you were just lashing out because your idea was shot at so many times.   

       //but support will be weakened for the insurgency if people are to busy enjoying the free ice to bother supporting the insurgency.//
I suggest we drop this line of reasoning. As you said it yourself, the matter is far more complex (my anno about soenniets and sjiiets) to be solved by providing ice.
  

       The link "Albedo" is working fine now (must have been my link to internet that prevented it from working" and as far as I read it, it only concerns reflection of light but I have to read it more thourough to be able to give an opinion.   

       I will get back as soon as I've read the link "spray turbines" (which may take a couple of days, but hey, your idea is at least getting a lot of attention).
Susan, Jun 09 2005
  

       Boo! I thought that this idea was going to be about topless Eskimo women.
DrBob, Jun 09 2005
  

       The effectiveness of spray turbines has yet to be proven. Agreed the idea sounds promising, but one of its major problems is that they cannot predict where the rain will fall. The second problem is that these turbines have yet to be built. The engineering part is flawless.   

       The Albedo effect is most effective on large flat surfaces such as Alaska where there is a lot of snow. In order for your mirror idea to work you would have to cover a large portion of Iraq and even then the effect would be locally.   

       Clouds are presumed to have an albedo effect in the link you provided and airplane contrails seem to produce the desired Albedo effect.   

       Which brings me back to your intial idea, that to chill Iraq would lower insurgency rates (terrorist attacks). So what I propose is the following:
  

       Start flying a lot over Iraq, preffereably plains loaded with tourists. The Tourist would generate income for Iraq giving many a would be terrorist a direction for his or her energy (stalls, cafeteria, taxi's, making landingstrips etc.) whilst the Albedo effect from all those plains would lower the temperature.
  

       For starters you could throw in a lot of F117's flying all over Iraq to find those initial insurgents.
Susan, Jun 13 2005
  

       Plains are hard to fly, and tourists and terrorists don't mix, no matter how phonetically similar they may be.
daseva, Jun 13 2005
  

       Hence the F117's
Susan, Jun 13 2005
  

       Where did you get that from [DrBob]?   

       I don't think anyone is going to agree on this. Right now there is a lot of arguing over the same points again and again. Would it not be easier just to agree to disagree?
hidden truths, Jun 13 2005
  

       Let's follow "act locally, think globally" rules.   

       The atmosphere is comparatively huge, even in small slices relative to the land below. Bodies of water exist everywhere, even salty oceans abut vast desert plains. If one desires albedo, would turning to warming or to cooling the atmosphere above land make sense, when bodies of water abound?   

       Ocean currents are powered by warm water flow from shallow areas that concentrate albedo and are influenced by gravity and cool rifts of solid land that transition to cool ocean swells. By allowing nature to do most of the work, force hot water through pipes deep into the Persian Gulf and other seas within 500 miles of Iraq. When the hot water is discharged, displaced cool water will rapidly fall about the stream and shallow water currents will intensify their seaward flow. Net result should be a salient with heightened evaporation and more clouds and humidity.   

       The key to this is a vast reservoir of a few metres depth lined with sand and flooded with water to collect solar heat, located within several hundred miles of deep ocean or freshwater reservoirs.
reensure, Jun 13 2005
  

       I would agree to that [hiddentruths]
Susan, Jun 13 2005
  

       Thank you hidden truths. I've been dying for someone to ask. Chilly Rack!
DrBob, Jun 13 2005
  

       Djeez [Unabubba] that took pronounciation in four languages before I got it!
Susan, Jun 25 2005
  

       Is this idea why the Cold War never got too violent?
theleopard, Nov 01 2006
  

       Certain Muslim groups in Sweden prove this doesn't work. On the other hand, somehow it seems that the Druze up in the Golan sometimes cool down faster than their contemporaries in the hotter areas of Israel.
pashute, Nov 07 2012
  
      
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