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P90 inspired combat shotgun

A combat shotgun capable of carrying 30+ rounds
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I recently had the rare chance to handle a P90 submachinegun that belongs to a gundealer I'm friends with. While looking at it's unique design (fully ambidextrous, short, compact and easy to aim) I thought why isn't there a shotgun like this?
The main design feature of the P90 that a combat shotgun would benefit the most from is the top-fed magazine that lays atop of the gun, running lengthways with the barrel. This allows the P90 to hold a whopping 50 rnds. of rather lackluster 5.7mm, but we're not here to talk ballistics. Now if a similar magazine using 12-gauge shells were used, it'd be easy to fit around 30 rnds, provided the overall length of the shotgun itself stayed the same length as the average shotgun today is.
With the increased shell capacity, a shotgun like this would be a prime candidate for automatic fire. With the majority of the weight from ammunition being beared along the length of the gun, the muzzle climb from full auto fire would be greatly reduced, especially if the rate of fire was kept down to around 8-10 shots/sec. The only issues I can think of are:
1) how unwieldy the magazines would be to carry (each being the length of the shotgun's barrel)
2) the gun's overall weight loaded may prove to heavy for tactical use. and
3) the ammunition may have to be modified to get rid of the rim that extends along the base of the common 12-gauge shell so that it may stack more neatly, making loading the magazines much easier.
scott_r_uber, Aug 10 2005

(??) P90 Submachinegun http://matrix.dumps...rearms/smg/p90.html
Picture, specs and description of P90 [scott_r_uber, Aug 10 2005]

Combat shotguns http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/SH09-E.HTM
Lots of formidable-looking shotguns here. The linked one holds only 12 shells, though. [bungston, Aug 10 2005]

Bizon submachinegun http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm
Picture, specs and description of Bizon, interesting magazine design [scott_r_uber, Aug 12 2005]

30mm shotgun shell http://www.geocitie..._shotgun_round.html
I'm testing a shotgun based on a 30mm cannon shell. [dinosnider, Oct 10 2008]

[link]






       Oh, yeah, I've seen pictures of that one. The shells are in a plastic magazine that sits on top of the barrel, all along its length. The shells sit crosswise, as if they would roll down the length of the magazine. (I'm just repeating all that since the pictures don't make that clear, although it is one of the oddest things about the gun.)   

       It looks like all you are suggesting is a normal shotgun with a magazine atop the barrel. You are not suggesting the bullpup layout of a P90, are you? No, you say it will stay the same length. I've wanted to try a bullpup shotgun.   

       Are you going to load the shells crosswise? That will make the magazine even heavier.   

       I'm not seeing this as being any better than an under-barrel magazine such as is on most shotguns. I think you are getting into too much weight in too awkward a place, and changing that as you fire.   

       A shotgun is really a infinite-rate-of-fire machine gun already. It just fires all its bullets at one go. I don't see trying for a full-auto rapid-fire shotgun unless you have something really great. I'm not liking this.
baconbrain, Aug 10 2005
  

       What stops the ammo cooking off with the heat from the barrel?
coprocephalous, Aug 10 2005
  

       I couldn't find a link for the military's new automatic shotgun that supposedly has some new method of recoil suppression. (As a fully automatic shotgun would need to have) It's always hard to get the straight scoop on these things as the media has no idea what the difference between a fully automatic and a semi automatic weapon is and uses the terms interchangeably depending on how technical they want to sound that day. Anyway, this thing supposedly doesn't need lubrication, can fire reliably when caked with mud and leap tall buildings in a single bound.
doctorremulac3, Aug 10 2005
  

       //I recently had the rare chance to handle a P90 submachinegun that belongs to a gundealer I'm friends with.\\   

       I suspect [scott r uber] wanted to say this so badly, he built this idea just to do so. And it's lame.
zeno, Aug 10 2005
  

       Zeno, you have a good point there. Try saying, "Ooo! Ahhh!" and see what happens.
baconbrain, Aug 10 2005
  

       //being beared along the length // sp. "borne"
coprocephalous, Aug 10 2005
  

       well, this went crappier than I expected. first of all let me start with the petty and move to the more important:
Zeno, I was explaining where I got the idea
coprocephalous,If the p90 can handle the heat from 50 rnds firing at around 15 rnds/sec without cooking off it's ammo then I would figure a shotgun which is a recoil intensive weapon wouldn't have near the sustained firing that an SMG would. Also, thanks for the spelling fix.
baconbrain, as far as a shotgun being an "infinite-rate-of-fire machine gun" that is untrue. Shotguns can fire a spread pattern, true. But shotgun slugs are pretty much conventional bullets just super-sized to fit in a shotgun . Also, if the rate of fire for a shotgun weren't an issue then why have there been so many attempts to make them automatic?
As far as real designs go, I was just putting the idea out there before getting into anything technical. I two main bonuses for this kind of weapon would be ambidexterous design (meaning the spent shells would have to be ejected downward similiar to the P90) and large magazine capacity.
scott_r_uber, Aug 10 2005
  

       Would there be any advantage to having the shells crosswise versus having three or four separate side-by-side tubular magazines (perhaps removable en bloc) and a mechanism to feed from them sequentially?
supercat, Aug 10 2005
  

       Crappier happens. Welcome to the Halfbakery.   

       I'd forgotten about slugs, and assumed we were talking about buckshot. Hmm.   

       I don't know why people make automatic weapons of the fully-automatic sort. Too many Hollywood movies, probably. I prefer a single aimed round, delivered at the right time. You carry less ammo, and the gun has less moving parts.   

       But I'll take a shotgun any day. You are right, too, a shotgun does not need a high rate of fire.
baconbrain, Aug 10 2005
  

       //I don't know why people make automatic weapons of the fully-automatic sort.//   

       1: suppression fire doesn't have to be accurate. Lots of flying lead is just fine. (full auto mode)
2: close-quarters fire doesn't have time to be accurate. Lots of flying lead is almost necessary. (burst mode)
3: On the range, it's just fun. (just let 'er rip!)
Freefall, Aug 10 2005
  

       I prefer the pump action double barrelled shot gun. My whole shoulder and colar bone is bruised after I spend a day shooting one, but I love holding raw power like that.
babyhawk, Aug 10 2005
  

       [Uber] - welcome. Full points from me for a reasonable first idea, good spelling, and civil exchange in the face of fishbones. A gun idea is always going to get some bones from the crew around here.   

       That said, I could swear I have seen pictures of 30+ round shotguns. Were there not combat shotguns of this sort used in Vietnam? They had a Gatlin-gun type round ammo clip.
bungston, Aug 10 2005
  

       //But shotgun slugs are pretty much conventional bullets // Is solid shot used in combat shotguns? I thought the idea of a combat shotgun was for scatter effect in close-quarters combat, like the original use in WW1 for trench clearance. The only use I've seen for slugs in this kind of weapon is for breaching doors by taking out the hinges.
AbsintheWithoutLeave, Aug 10 2005
  

       Wow, the responses come pouring in.. Let me take this one peice at a time here.
supercat, I'm not a machinist or a gunsmith, but I would think having several side-by-side tube magazines as opposed to one top mounted magazine would make the weapon both cumbersome to use and reload in a firefight and very difficult to design to begin with, much less build.
baconbrain, thanks for the welcoming, until I got home and rechecked my idea I thought you were the only one who was going to be in my corner on this. As far as why people make full-auto weapons Freefall pretty much hit the nail on the head with his list.
babyhawk, that's interesting.. I should go annoy some more of my gun fanatic friends into seeing if I can play with one

bungston, thanks for the encouragement, I don't mind the positive criticism as much as the pointless "you're a doodiehead" criticism. As far as a Gatling-style shotgun used in Vietnam I would have no idea.. but the idea wasn't simply to make a shotgun that has a high magazine capacity; it was to make a shotgun much better suited for CQB (close quarters battle), by making it short, simple to use (right- or left- handed) and have it carry a lot of ammunition in order to outclass current combat shotguns. As far as the Halfbakery's general opinion towards weapon ideas, my father served in the military for 20 years before retiring and continuing to work as a police officer for the past 12. Any concept that would bring him home alive at the end of the day is music to my ears, even if it means arming him with the gear to take over 7 third world countries.
AbsintheWithoutLeave, as far as my comment about slugs, that's another thing that makes shotguns so unique is their selection of ammunition. Most firearms you basically have full metal jacket (for piercing body armor) or hollow point (for maximum damage to unprotected flesh) if you even have that much of a choice.
With shotguns you have slugs: for medium-long range engagements, buckshot for medium-short range engagements and birdshot, which if used at point-blank range can be much more devastating than either of the others and has the added benefit of no worries of over-penetration (mostly a problem for SWAT teams concerned with hitting a hostage or bystander in the neighboring room). Not to mention the non-lethal options that are now becoming available, of which I only know one. That is the "beanbag" shell, delivers the same 'oomph' without the whole being a dead body after having been shot by it. Although in most applications buckshot is used.
well, I think I've responded to everyone's posts so until the next wave of posts hits, I'm out
scott_r_uber, Aug 11 2005
  

       "I prefer the pump action double barrelled shot gun."   

       Is there such a thing?
bristolz, Aug 11 2005
  

       I don't know about a Gatling style, but I'm fairly sure I've seen a revolver-style shotgun ("fixed" cylinder rather than Thompson-style drum magazine) used in the Vietnam era.
[s_r_u] The problem with shorter shotguns is wider spread, reducing effective range, unless you can find some way to choke a short barrel . Also, if a SWAT team is concerned about hitting bystanders, they generally leave the shotguns in the truck.
[bris] Nice!
coprocephalous, Aug 11 2005
  

       [Copro] yup, Google "Streetsweeper".   

       The USAS-12 looks to fulfil the high capacity requirement - 20 round drums are available. Bullpup shotguns also exist. This is, however, an interesting idea.
david_scothern, Aug 11 2005
  

       coprocephalous, SWAT teams usually carry a variety of arms during their operations. Most times the firearms are more or less a scare tactic as they rarely need to shoot anyone and for the concern I was addressing, a shotgun is a great weapon (provided you didn't use slugs) because while the spread effect would make precision accuracy a laughable concept, there would be no worries about it blowing through a target, punching through a wall and ending it's trip in some innocent somebody. More than likely the pellets would be stopped in the drywall somewhere. But the usage of birdshot comment is more or less a casual observation, not so much a known fact. In most cases birdshot is used on well... birds when people are hunting. And most of the refuse I'm throwing out about ammo choices are really side topics which I haven't spent to much effort trying to develop, explain or defend.
david_scothern, I was actually trying to avoid the large drum design, while looking cool and being very intimidating when you have to face someone carrying one, they are large, cumbersome and get in the way. The shooter has to adjust how they would normally operate the gun to accommidate the drum magazine, which good design should adjust itself around the operator not the other way around.
scott_r_uber, Aug 11 2005
  

       you're a doodiehead.
bungston, Aug 11 2005
  

       I wouldn't think that a firearm that used a 'block' of several tubular magazines fixed together would be any worse to reload than one that used a sideways-oriented stick. Actually, the multi-tube magazine would be slightly more space-efficient.   

       Another interesting design notion with a tubular magazine approach, though making it reliable might not be feasible, would be to have a shotgun with two or three tubular magazines that fires from the open bolt and allows the user to select which magazine to use (with an option to switch to "whatever's available" if the desired magazine is or becomes empty).   

       On the other hand, it might me more useful to design the infamous "double-barrel pump shotgun" with a mechanism so that pumping will normally cycle fired barrels only. This would allow a user to have different barrels and/or chokes for the different loads.
supercat, Aug 11 2005
  

       bungston, dearly noted *refiles you from category "someone I like" to "AWOL (a waste of life)". All in good fun tho :-P My "doodiehead" comment was aimed more at Zeno, who seemed to be the original bearer of childish thought.

supercat, still, even if it's an easier to use way to hold ammo, it would still be a pain to design and would have (what I would think) too many moving parts. What little I do know about design (especially in the military/paramilitary sense)is that K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid)is the foremost ideal.
The design for a top-fed magazine like I've described already exists, has been proven reliable, and only needs to be scaled up to hold 12-gauge shells. While I can't think of a gun using a magazine design like you're describing, I do know of an submachinegun that uses a "helix" arrangement in a short, narrow but deep drum magazine. I'll post the link.
As far as if that would work on a shotgun *shrug* I'd say it would prolly work as well as my design but until some crazy-minded gunsmith decides to build 2 prototypes based on both design ideas, there's no telling which is better.
I also had a similar idea involving that same "choose your ammo" concept. Take the same design I've been pushing, cut the barrel length in half, add left- and right- side magazines of similar design as the original idea and have a simple fire selector with "left, safe, right"
scott_r_uber, Aug 12 2005
  

       //"AWOL (a waste of life)". // Oi! I hope you like hospital food.
AbsintheWithoutLeave, Aug 12 2005
  

       What's a doodiehead?
coprocephalous, Aug 12 2005
  

       Darn! I thought of this a while ago, but never posted it.   

       I think this might work better for some kind of heavy machine gun type application, maybe on a tank or Humvee. You could either use the pre-selecter idea scott_r_uber had, or feed the ammo on a belt from an ammo box.   

       Then you could put several different types of shot into one belt, with a shell of buckshot followed by a shell of birdshot followed by a slug, much like how tracer rounds are incorporated into machine gun belts. This would fill the air with lead at several different ranges.   

       I don't know how much better this would be than a standard .50 cal machine gun, but for a civilian application, you could kill an entire flock of ducks in less than a second. Don't think the different government agencies would like that very much.
discontinuuity, Aug 12 2005
  

       I really don't see the point of this weapon - a combat shotgun is a close-quarters weapon, so if you need a prolonged high rate of fire, it probably means your tactics are seriously wrong (or an extremely bad shot) - you should have thinned the bad guys out at longer range, or with a grenade. Thirty rounds is going to be pretty heavy on a weapon that is almost certainly going to be significantly heavier than normal.
coprocephalous, Aug 12 2005
  

       rasberry re-tart, interesting spin on the idea, but if I had to use a heavy mounted weapon I would rather be pumping big nasty .50 cal rounds THROUGH whatever cover the badguys may find instead of trying to nab them before they got behind something (.50 cal has horrific penetration, that's the kind of round snipers use to disable vehicles for goodness sake). ALthough, as far as an ambush weapon it would destroy a large group of people before they even realized where the hail of lead came from.

coprocephalous, most CQB weapons used are carbines (pretty much shortened assault rifles), submachineguns and shotguns. Both carbines and submachineguns sport ammo capacities in around the 30 mark, except a few unconventional designs like the ones we've mentioned and linked to.
Shotguns are sometimes the best suited weapon for the job, but due to frequent reloading they have to be passed up. We've already established in the post by Freefall the reason for high ammo capacity and automatic fire. Suppression fire can be just as important in a 30 ft. hallway as it is from 120 yards away. Also, unless I'm reading your post wrong you're thinking of most engagements are 1 vs 1 which is often not the cases. When all other variables are equal if you're faced by superior numbers you need superior firepower or your going home in a casket.
The idea isn't to shoot one 30 round burst(although it would be fun at a shooting range) then be a sitting duck while you try to reload and if you need a 30 rnd burst of buckshot to hit something you either 1) need glasses or 2)should never have a firearm in your hands, you'd be more likely to blow your foot off than anything... The idea is to allow the shooter more than two or three 2-3 round burst before reloading is required.
Also, a shotgunner's fire discipline is a lot higher than most because he's used to having only 6-8 shots before having to reload, if given a gun like this, unless sh!t totally hit the fan he would probably never have to reload it during operations.
High capacity shotguns are already available and in use that use 20 round drums so weight must not be too much of an issue, but like I mentioned I was trying to avoid a simple drum because 1) it's baked and 2) they're clunky and get in the way.
Adding 10 rounds wouldn't do much to the weight of the shotgun, especially with most modern weapons being made out of lightweight polymers as opposed to steel or other metal. Unloaded, this gun would weigh no more than any other shotgun of this type.
If the overall length would make the gun too heavy with all the weight on the barrel(when loaded), then you could always use a double-stacked magazine like the P-90's and instead of being one row of 30 rnds it could be 2 rows of 15, the barrel could either be abbreviated as well or extend out in order to keep the shot-pattern smaller. But experimenting would be required to see if it that would make the magazine too drum-like

ok, it's official I've spent too much thinking this one out so it's probably closer to a two thirds baked idea than a halfbaked one.. D=
scott_r_uber, Aug 12 2005
  

       [s_r_u] Maybe SWAT teams your side of the Atlantic are woefully under-funded, but here the strategy is one of massive over-strength - engagements are never as badly manned/managed as 1:1.
coprocephalous, Aug 12 2005
  

       coprocephalous, there's always unplanned variables with anything like this. Besides, this weapon is intended for CQB, not purely for SWAT teams, either side of the Atlantic, that being said which side's your's? Just curious..
Clearing buildings is always a gamble, and SWAT teams try to minimize the risks through a great number of tactics to stun and overwhelm the occupants of a building before any resistance is capable of thwarting their efforts. But when you have a large building with a limited number of people you can't keep the team in a few large groups and be able to have the same swarm effect. So you have your group's combat efficency diminished as the group must split into fire teams to clear individual rooms. Now what happens when a fire team (usually consisting of 2-3 men) enter a room with 5 or so armed suspects who had time to prepare themselves having heard all the ruckus caused by the SWAT team's entrance into the building? Most situations, they're talked down, some they're shot down and others involve elaborate ceremonies with grieving widows and horse drawn caskets covered in US flags. Hence where my 1 vs 1 comment came from. While the SWAT team may have did they're homework, did strike with rapid precision and seized the initiative, sh!t still happens.
Furthermore, it has been fully noted that you are against the idea of designing a superior combat shotgun, can we please stop with the bickering of what SWAT teams do and don't do because undoubtedly we're both working from a limited knowledge on the subject? This is about a shotgun with a magazine that fits length-ways along the top of the barrel to save space, increase ammo capacity and allow more in the way of ergonomics when it comes to shotguns. It's not to fill an as yet unfilled niche it's to outperform what currently exists in that niche. Lastly, if there is no need for a weapon like this, then why are there so many shotguns that have been designed for the purpose?
Bad, coprocephalous, bad! you made the mean scott come out!! >:|
scott_r_uber, Aug 13 2005
  

       There is an issue I have with physical control of the gun: does the magazine tilt left or right or does it feed in a straight-over saddleback into the receiver? Also, your muzzle rise will increase as shells are expended and the weight of those remaining is transferred to the stock's center of balance. That weight shift may just be compensated by an intuitive shooter, but aiming would take practice.
reensure, Aug 13 2005
  

       The feed would be nearly identical to the P90 SMG mentioned earlier. the magazine would fit atop the gun, extending from the end of the barrel and leading back to the reciever with the shells sitting perpendicular to the barrel, as the shells are cycled they would be turned 90 degrees to align it with the chamber by the magazine. As the gun is fired, the spent casing is spit downward and a new shell is inserted from the magazine above it. Whether that's what a saddleback is I'm not sure, but I hope I answered your question.
Also, I agree with what you say about the weight shift, but like any uniquely designed tool or weapon, it takes time to get used to it. Whether or not the extra time spent training would be worthwhile in the end I couldn't say without first having a shotgun like this and spending the time to learn it- ya know?
scott_r_uber, Aug 13 2005
  

       In the UK at least, houses are generally broken into when the owner is out. Consequently, I'm not trying to be my own little corner of the British Army in my living room. If someone breaks into my house while I'm in it, my wife and I are breaking right out of there... they can take the valuables. That's what insurance is for. Mind you, if I happened to find myself behind the guy with something heavy, I might lay into him with it...
david_scothern, Aug 13 2005
  

       Pa`ve, While I think a 30 round combat shtgun would be a very nice toy to have around just because I like guns. The laws around here make it very difficult for civilians to own any weapon with more than 10 rnd capacity. This is meant more for military/paramilitary applications only, not for home defense.
I think most people are misunderstanding the purpose for the high magazine capacity, which is to provide the shooter more time in a firefight between reloads. If two entrenched shotgunners were trading shots (unlikely I know..) who do you think would come out on top? The person with 6-8 shots or the person with 30?
david_scothern, in the US criminals have adopted a new form a burgularizing people's houses called 'home invasion' where they basically pretend they're SWAT members gone bad, storm your house, hold you hostage (probably to rape and kill you later) and steal all your goodies. I don't really have to worry about it because my father's paranoid tendancies have prepared me amply for such a threat, but I don't feel like revealing how much of a nutjob I am so I won't go into details. At least I don't cover my walls in aluminum foil to jam alien scanners so they can't read my mind.... although I should probably invest some time in this :-/
scott_r_uber, Aug 13 2005
  

       semi-automatic guns and paranoid people. Ever notice how those seem to go together?
RayfordSteele, Aug 13 2005
  

       RayfordSteele, not semi-, fully- there's a big difference.
scott_r_uber, Aug 13 2005
  

       What everyone is forgetting about is a little thing called shotshells. Shotshells are lead shot encased in a sabot. And using the sabot, they can be fired by any gun, even a pistol. They are fairly rare, mostly because they are kind of expensive, but they would certainly be cheaper than a whole new weapon. 1 clip filled with shotshells would turn an M16 into a rather effective suppression-fire weapon.
SoldierJim, Aug 14 2005
  

       SoldierJim, I've always heard of these called ratshot. Because of how small the pellets are and how few can actually be fit into smaller pistol and rifle ammo, they really only work against vermin although some people use them for birdshot.

Plus, an M-16 is already an effective suppression weapon isn't it? But it isn't a weapon specialized for CQB, (although its M-4 variant is suited for this role). The idea I'm pushing is a superior combat shotgun, not a replacement for an assault rifle which serves an entire different purpose.

Also, an M-16 fires 5.56mm x 45mm NATO rounds (.223 calibre) the actual bullet of which is quite small and relies on it's velocity not mass for damage. This being said how could you fit anything capable of an anti-personnel role (like buckshot) into a sabot that small? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're describing..
scott_r_uber, Aug 14 2005
  

       As an afterthought, after a brief google search for "shotshells" all I found WERE shotgun shells, most of the 12 gauge variety, hmm.. almost ironic.. :-/
scott_r_uber, Aug 15 2005
  

       What category am I in then?
zeno, Aug 17 2005
  

       zeno, if you need to ask, you probably already know :-P
scott_r_uber, Aug 18 2005
  

       //poor bastard was shot forty three times ... "I wanted to make sure the bastard was dead."//   

       Sounds like a truer answer would have been "I only had 43 rounds".   

      
If this idea works for the shotgun, would it work for the bazooka? Handy for those long drawn-out rpg duels.
Loris, Aug 18 2005
  

       Well scott, I guess you're right, But the best use of suppression fire is to get you and your squad to a better position to give you an advantage over the enemy, whether that be closer, farther, or out of there completely. If you're in a situation where you're in a fire-fight, you don't give-a-@%$# what size it is, you want to get DOWN!
SoldierJim, Aug 19 2005
  

       [Loris], if we were worried about the weight of 2 dozen shotgun shells, imagine how much an RPG would weigh with about 12 rockets hanging off of it O_O' and if you need that much firepower you're probably fighting an armored column solo and you're as good as FSCKed anyway.

//They are fairly rare, mostly because they are kind of expensive, but they would certainly be cheaper than a whole new weapon. //

I also don't think this is true. What would be cheaper in the long run? An initial investment for a gun using readily available and cheap ammo or using an existing gun pumping rare and expensive ammo? If I had an m-16 full of shotshells I'd be too scared to shoot any because I wouldn't want to go to the store afterwards to purchase more.
scott_r_uber, Aug 20 2005
  

       //I don't feel like revealing how much of a nutjob I am so I won't go into details. At least I don't cover my walls in aluminum foil to jam alien scanners so they can't read my mind.... //   

       I've got the foil up, but my daddy never trained me to handle fake swat teams. Perhaps you could enlighten me on that one... you could always email me personal like (check my profile) if you're worried about being labeled a nutjob here... although I'd be surprised to find out that nobody else here is a nutjob of some kind...   

       I'd think that having two or three tubes on the front would indeed be heavier than lining the rounds up sideways, since the tubes would need material between each other.
ye_river_xiv, Sep 04 2006
  

       I have been in SWAT for the past 11 or so years and have served as the tactical commander for almost all of that time.. I don't know about the Military aspect of a weapon like this but I do know about the law enforcement side. For several years I used a H&K MP5K for entry work because I needed a very short weapon to use in small cramped quarters and with a 9mm being a "marginal" caliber at best I needed full auto just to feel safe... a long gun is best for shooting people but not good for real close quarters "real world" shootings... however, the short bull pup weapon is ideal. We have recently began using 10.5 inch barreled M-16's and have not had muchtrouble on cutting the corners with the very short carbines.. however, a 12 guage short bullpup shotgun or a shotgun like you have described is a very viable and effective solution. In the "real world" as opposed to the "reel world" you very seldom ever need a full auto weapon unless the weapon is "marginal" like the 9mm. We use semi-auto and have had great success in using handguns or rifles to provide suppressive fire.. the place that a weapon like this would really shine in in true close quarters where you will be engaging suspects in homes. A short bullpup shotgun with a 6 round stick magazine in the stock or possibly a 10 round stick on the top if you make it like the P-90 would be great. The weapon would ideally have a very short barrel which would mean it would have to be Class III but even with an 18inch barrel for regular production it would still be short enough to be effective in most situations and cramped homes or apartments that law enforcement encounters. Personally, if it could be designed with the magazine on top with bottom ejection it could be easiy fired either right or left handed. If you add a simple sqeeze cocker safety / hammer charger you would have a true ambidextrous and very effective weapon. Additionally, being able to use magazines would make it a true multi tool. It could have one magazine for door breaching rounds used to open doors, one with low recoil buckshot for typical apartment use, and others with any number of specialty rounds that are now available and acceptable for use by law enforcement. I didn't mention it but the weapon should also be semi-auto and not the pump type action.. no matter how it was designed.. too many times you need to be able to use your weapon one handed out in the real world... Anyway.. I think it is a very good idea and one that I have actually been tinkering with for the past five years... (Just on paper..) If anyone tinkers and comes up with a working model or design I would love to see it...
eadamson, Jul 14 2007
  

       Welcome to the Halfbakery, [eadamson]. We're a mixed bunch, me myself I'll applaud you if you throw in a few paragraph breaks.   

       You'll find some gunners and some nongunners here, but it's a great place regardless of your choice.
normzone, Jul 16 2007
  

       Any bull pup combat shotgun larger than 28ga is likely to be a class III weapon ("destructive device") regardless of barrel length and other features.   

       As an adjunct to the notion of using magazines with different types of ammunition, I would suggest that firing from the open bolt might be a useful feature. The BATF tends to regard open-bolt weapons as machineguns (whether or not they can fire full-auto) but firing from the open bolt would mean that switching magazines would immediately switch the type of ammo. In a shotgun, the loss of accuracy should probably not be too much of a problem.
supercat, Jul 16 2007
  

       The width of the gun would be too much with a, say, 3" 12gg magnum shell. That leaves a light "tactical" load by Aguila at 1 3/4" or a new wildcat cartridge.
dinosnider, Oct 10 2008
  

       //5.56mm x 45mm NATO rounds (.223 calibre)//
5.56 / 25.4 = 0.2188. Does anyone know where the .223 comes from?
coprocephalous, Oct 10 2008
  

       Okay. Now I have to question the very existence of [eadamson] in the anno five up from here.   

       Only the user page and the anno above show when the user name is searched. I guesss it's possible that he came here in search of shotgun info.
normzone, Oct 10 2008
  

       hmm.... well if you convert it the other way .223cal >>> 5.66mm... do you supposed we've been using a typo for the last few decades ?
FlyingToaster, Oct 10 2008
  

       [normzone] dunno, I've occasionally signed up for a forum just for one post.
FlyingToaster, Oct 10 2008
  

       As have I. I'm just a suspicious sort by nature, as a result of too many years in my trade. I'm hoping to be able to go through rehab someday.
normzone, Oct 10 2008
  

       If the guy was tinkering with his design "on paper" and on the net, the halfbakery would likely show up in a search eventually. I dunno - plausible enough, it's just that you don't see a lot of SWAT lieutenants. I'd be willing to take him at face value in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary.
david_scothern, Oct 10 2008
  

       oh, you mean is he actually a swat guy ?... I had my doubts last time; coulda been just run-of-the-mill paranioa though.   

       The concept of a bullpup full-auto shotgun is a bit too nasty for my delicate sensibilities and I have no experience with close-quarter arms in-situ; military or police, but it would mark quite a change of job-description to go from a 9mm pistol to one.
FlyingToaster, Oct 10 2008
  
      
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