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Troll the French

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The French get very vexed when they find themselves starting to use imported English words, like "le weekend". They try and force the French populace to use proper French words, even if they have to make them up specially, like "ordinateur" instead of "computer".

However in the English language, we have no qualms about borrowing words from every other language. So, this idea is to start using these invented French words, anglicising them slightly, so we would start using the term "ordinater", as in "Hang on, I've just got to check the weather forecast on the ordinater before we go out!".

Then we will claim that these have been in common use in the English-speaking world for centuries and that they must have, at some time, by a sort of linguistic osmosis, crept into the French language. This will worry the French about the pollution of their language and breakdown of civilisation,
hippo, Dec 07 2018

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       Very good [+].   

       NB Sp. "french", Pr. "Duplicitous cowardly arrogant garlic-munching gallic bastards".
8th of 7, Dec 07 2018
  

       Fantastiq! Compte me in.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 07 2018
  

       I'm all for the idea, but a quick check of some of these invented words/phrases shows that they're clunky and odd. So it would take a particularly pleasing example for anyone to want use. This would mean we would then be replacing a word with one made up on the spot by the French. If the French notice this, they will naturally assume that we are substituting superior French words, which isn't untrue.   

       The root of the problem, for the French at least, is that they didn't get around to inventing the computer and as such didn't get on the naming committee. The inventing mismatch is likely to continue, so I have a suggestion. The next time we invent something that's likely to become commonplace, we name it using a French word.   

       If tomorrow, I invent a personal brain-computer interface I'm going to call it a navire. This will then become extremely popular, much faster than keyboards and all that but confusion will be sewn among the French who will have to invent a new name for "ship". With innovation and care, whole sections of the language might be lost.
bs0u0155, Dec 07 2018
  

       Well, they don't need a big national vocabulary - just "Where is my white flag ?", "Run away ! ", "Quick, hide ! " and "Who can we get to do our fighting for us ?"   

       The most common phrase used, "We surrender ! ", would of course need to be learned in all foreign languages, including Basque, Polynesian, and Inuit.
8th of 7, Dec 07 2018
  

       We should teach French to the Texans. They could really begin to irritate them. Or just pay to send some Cajuns to France every year until the French start making gumbo and watch it all collapse.
RayfordSteele, Dec 08 2018
  

       The French are going through a painful identity crisis just now. So are the British, the Americans, the Italians, the Germans, the Greeks, the Turks, the Arabs, the Russians and the Chinese.   

       People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. [-]   

       (The Australians are fine, thank you for asking).
pertinax, Dec 08 2018
  

       I just find it strange that the Normans, even if they were proto-Vikings, spoke French when they took over England. A 20-year DNA study completed at Oxford once suggested that of the 30% "Saxon" DNA in white English farmers, 40% of it came from France. It's hard not to get suspicious that Channel and world wars are really just a lot of Germanic cousins fighting each other.   

       Apropos to France's reputation, it appears that France could have prevented WWII entirely -- in 1924 -- by occupying the Ruhr Valley -- but the Germans and their English cousins shouted with outrage -- no, no, we need supplies to rebuild German armies.   

       I say take common English words and drop the endings, sort of like half rations.
4and20, Dec 08 2018
  

       French (of which I speak absolutely zero) upon closer analysis regarding the large amounts of groups of letters that seem to be ignored when spoken, seems to me to be a kind of ‘hyper- cockney’.
Ian Tindale, Dec 08 2018
  

       //going through a painful identity crisis just now. So are the British//   

       Sounds uncomfortable, glad I'm English then.
Skewed, Dec 08 2018
  

       [Ian] that's why the word "ordinateur" sounds right in a cockney accent ("The bleedin' 'ordinaters knackered!")
hippo, Dec 08 2018
  

       Is there a list of these invented words? I can always use new words, and the French did great with "beret" and "dildo".
bungston, Dec 11 2018
  

       Oddly enough, there's a new french word that combines "sex toy" with "headwear", i.e. a synonym for "dickhead". Unsurprisingly, it's "macron".
8th of 7, Dec 11 2018
  

       <has another thought/)>   

       //The French are going through a painful identity crisis just now//   

       Slightly off topic, but no.   

       I rather think this is more a case of the french firmly affirming their national identity..   

       You know, the one they've had since at least the french revolution.   

       My feelings about them right now are a little ambiguous, as a fellow European I'm feeling just a little bit proud of them right now* & at the same time just a little bit jealous (aside from those deaths involved, which are tragic, obviously).   

       I've often wished my lot had a bit more passion when it came to telling their masters that they'd really like them to stop screwing them in the arse with a hot poker now because they're not enjoying it any more, because frankly, mildly worded petitions just don't get the job done these days (and it's awfully hard to produce legible handwriting while someone's ramming a poker up your arse anyway, the pen keeps slipping).   

       * Some might consider those sentiments odd coming from someone who voted for out (of the EU) & still wants to see it happen but there it is.
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       //proto-Vikings//   

       Sp. post-Vikings   

       If you want proto-Vikings you'll have to look to the ancestors of the Normans Viking ancestors.
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       That is an intelligent comment; Norman wisdom, if you will.
8th of 7, Dec 12 2018
  

       //That is an intelligent comment//   

       <hangs head in shame/>   

       I'm sorry, I'll try not to do it again.
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       // If you want proto-Vikings you'll have to look //   

       We in fact don't know. Ask yourself, if people came up from Africa, did they settle in France first? Modern DNA study is like a Viking hairdo, after battle with a French maid.
4and20, Dec 12 2018
  

       //We in fact don't know. Ask yourself.. etc.//   

       Huh! can I just say that I like turtles?   

       Those that were "Vikings" invaded, conquered (raped, pillaged, engaged in a little light tourism) & colonized throughout Europe (& far beyond), the Normans were the descendants of those Vikings who settled in France.   

       Ergo the Normans (who were after the Vikings) could be described as post-Vikings, but could not be described as proto-Vikings.   

       A proto-Viking could only be something _before_ the Vikings (& before they _were_ Vikings).   

       So the Normans can't be proto-Vikings by any stretch of the imagination (because they came after the Vikings).   

       Where or when your proto-Vikings came from is completely irrelevant to any of that linguistic pedantry.   

       Do please try to keep up [4].
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       The problem is: we don't know how French the Normans were. I for one would be grateful to have a more definitive answer, because after a 20 year study at Oxford, I'm not sure it's a whole lot clearer.
4and20, Dec 12 2018
  

       ^ Still doesn't matter, chronologically they came after Vikings so they can't be proto-Vikings, simples.
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       African --> French --> Viking--> Norman --> French-Norman --> French-Norman-English   

       What I am saying is, those French people, who were possibly-proto Vikings, were just sitting in France, waiting to be seeded like a baguette eater. Their offspring, from Norman manliness, would be proto-Viking. If you want to restrict the word Norman to mean only Vikings who lived in France and never intermarried, well, let's do that.
4and20, Dec 12 2018
  

       //after a 20 year study at Oxford, I'm not sure it's a whole lot clearer//   

       <struggles against a nigh irresistible urge to type something humorously disparaging that might be interpreted as deeply insulting/>   

       <succeeds/>   

       <only just/>
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       What your saying is the peoples that became Vikings migrated through France then back again.   

       Out of Africa--> pre-Viking french--> Viking--> Norman conquest of those who'd previously settled in France--> French-Norman --> not satisfied with that the buggers came over here to ravish our livestock & slaughter our women.   

       The first two would be proto-Vikings--> Vikings would be Vikings--> and everything after would be post-Vikings (chrono-linguistically speaking).
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       Also, when newspapers reported on the Oxford study, they only described the "30% Saxon" element of white farmer DNA. How 30% can be said to be a definitive proportion to describe race is a mystery for English news editors everywhere.
4and20, Dec 12 2018
  

       <curious what the other 70% is/>   

       The pre-Saxon residents presumably make up a good chunk of it?   

       I still don't see why you think it's strange the Normans who invaded Albion spoke French though, after all they were several generations removed from the original Viking invaders of France that they were (partially by then) descended from, same thing happened when they came here, within a couple of generations they were all speaking English & all that was left was a slew of (so 12?) loan words from French in the English language.
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       //How 30% can be said to be a definitive proportion to describe race is a mystery for English news editors everywhere//   

       Having problems reconciling that with having been told all humans are 99.9% identical & there's barely 1% difference between humans & chimps are they?   

       I blame the "scientists", damn poor show not saying what they mean properly :)
Skewed, Dec 12 2018
  

       Le troll +
xenzag, Dec 12 2018
  

       // there's barely 1% difference between humans & chimps //   

       Sometimes, not even the full 1%. There are a few very clever chimps, and a great many very, very stupid simian humans.
8th of 7, Dec 12 2018
  

       Ook, apparently.   

       At least, so I've heard.
pertinax, Dec 12 2018
  

       //Having problems reconciling that with having been told all humans are 99.9% identical & there's barely 1% difference between humans & chimps are they?//   

       I've not looked at the article (or the research), but if two sequences of DNA are 99.9% identical, there's a single base difference every kilobase on average. If you have many kilobases of sequence, you can compare where there are differences between several organisms, and determine what the most likely relationships are. There may be other variation which isn't included in the 99.9% identity figure. There can be structural variations - such as inversions, deletions, insertions and duplications. These are also quite useful to track, because they're much less likely to recur or revert precisely.
Loris, Dec 12 2018
  

       There's even less of 1% between being right on the edge of a cliff and falling off. Sometimes 1% is all it takes to create two different realities.
xenzag, Dec 12 2018
  

       //Sometimes 1% is all it takes to create two different realities.//   

       DNA is somewhere between an instruction and a pattern, maybe the mold for a brick would be a good analogy. Some years ago I happened upon a pile of top quality Victorian engineering bricks. These bricks are the sort of things used to create soaring railway viaducts suspending hundreds of tonnes a hundred feet in the air for a hundred years. Marvels of engineering.   

       Now, I adopted these bricks and with no bricklaying experience, set about building a BBQ. Comparing a viaduct to my BBQ shows that from identical building blocks the outputs can vary wildly in scope, scale, utility, longevity, aesthetics and monumental value. Not in this case though, I think they're about equal.
bs0u0155, Dec 12 2018
  

       // a pile of top quality Victorian engineering bricks. These bricks are the sort of things used to create soaring railway viaducts //   

       A "pile" ? Was this pile, quite coincidentally, viaduct-shaped by any chance ?
8th of 7, Dec 12 2018
  

       //DNA is somewhere between an instruction and a pattern// Hmm. I would have to inagree, certainly about the pattern part. Nothing in DNA tells you what shape vertebrae should be, except in a very, very, very roundabout way. It's more like a recipe than a pattern* - a printed recipe doesn't look remotely like a piece of food.   

       (*In the case of plants, corals and the Welsh it's more of a rough guideline.)
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 12 2018
  

       // a printed recipe doesn't look remotely like a piece of food. //   

       Fine ... but then, producing a full roast turkey dinner with all the trimmings requires a priori knowledge on the part of the cook other than the recipe that says "Stuff turkey, place in oven at 180C, forty minutes per kilo plus twenty minutes". There's all sorts of other stuff about plates, and gravy, and vegetables, and carving that cooks are "supposed to know".   

       So you have a DNA sequence that says "This is how to make <protein1>" where <protein1> has an innate tendency to form a flat sheet, like a cell membrane; and another sequence makes <protein2> which has an innate tendency to stick to, and through, a membrane made of <protein1> and transport sodium or potassium or calcium ions. Et viola, you've built a bacterium. But it's not going to "know" about plates, gravy, vegetables, carving and cranberry sauce*.   

       But how does such a simplistic system go from assembling sheets of proteins (which, while non-trival, is comprehensible) to assembling, for example, herds of caribou, without any a priori knowledge of hooves, antlers or hair ? Yet there is some evidence to support the assertion that caribou do, in fact, exist.   

       // In the case of ... the Welsh it's more of a rough guideline. //   

       Bloody rough ...   

       Recipe: "Take a load of mud and rocks, add a bucket each of spite, insecurity, resentment and envy, and leave out in the rain until it starts showing an interest in sheep and rugby".   

       *Unless it's that very rare thing, the so-called "clever" bacterium.
8th of 7, Dec 12 2018
  

       //Nothing in DNA tells you what shape vertebrae should be//   

       It doesn't. But I meant that DNA isn't just information, it can act just like a -ve mold or pattern to produce functional RNAs. With proteins, its a little more abstract because they are a -ve of a -ve, with the RNA acting a little like an assembly jig. The point is that the DNA sequence has a direct physical influence on brick/protein shape and size. It's not like an enzyme scoots along the DNA and fires out a series of second messenger pulses and the ribosome goes "Yes boss! 2 dozen more actin, got it.... mumble mumble actin obsessed that one.."   

       Once you have your bricks, you get to assemble them in any order.
bs0u0155, Dec 12 2018
  

       Where does it tell you how to mix mortar, or use a plumbline ?
8th of 7, Dec 12 2018
  

       Upon seeing the title of this idea I gleefully imagined fishermen with heavy duty rods and reels dragging Frenchmen, painfully impaled on large hooks, through an ocean of bloody chum in hopes of catching something worthwhile. But no, not even close.   

       <bangs head into wall, sobbing uncontrollably>
whatrock, Dec 13 2018
  

       There, there. We'll try to help make your wish come true.   

       <Pats [whatrock] comfortingly on shoulder/>
8th of 7, Dec 13 2018
  
      
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