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Watchable Soccer

Or "Football" as the third world calls it.
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Allow "blocking" and "body checking". I'd watch it.

Same rules apply as in real football. No hitting from behind, no aiming for the head...

ok, two rules apply, but other than that, may the most aggressive and dangerous team win.

After somebody body slams a player and takes the ball, the loser can still lie on the ground crying like a little pussy the same as they do now, only difference being nobody would care and the game would continue.

doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018

Football players "hiding". https://www.youtube...watch?v=v-1MQ0Cnbhs
If they're hiding, not doing a very good job. [doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018]

Toughest men in soccer. https://www.youtube...watch?v=f3HebsWpZ1Q
Awwww, he faw dow go boom boom. [doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018]

Plus we have moments like this. https://www.youtube...watch?v=Wopy6Ntd834
Although to be fair, I think soccer fans get their fair share of this kind of stuff too. [doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018]

Formation goldfish https://www.youtube...watch?v=WTaf2vrNrR4
[MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 01 2018]

https://www.youtube...watch?v=f3HebsWpZ1Q [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Feb 01 2018]

Berbatov http://www.runofpla...t-dimitar-berbatov/
There is no soccer to watch in this link but it tells you all you need to know about Berbatov. [calum, Feb 01 2018]

George Best https://www.youtube...watch?v=uJWWA-h_-5g
simply the best of the best of all time [xenzag, Feb 02 2018]

What a search of "dab the badger" comes up with. https://www.teepubl...abbing-honey-badger
No need to click, it's a honey badger "dabbing". [doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018]

[link]






       It's called "Rugby football", and it's Baked and WKTE.
8th of 7, Jan 30 2018
  

       Except its not watchable either.   

       Make the field smaller, say about the size of an XFL field, or even a hockey rink.   

       Give them something to do with their arms. Big nerf bats should do the trick.   

       Zoom the camera angle in closer for the legwork action.
RayfordSteele, Jan 30 2018
  

       Rollerball ?
8th of 7, Jan 30 2018
  

       //It's called "Rugby football", and it's Baked and WKTE.//   

       Rugby they hold the ball in their hands. Soccer you can only kick it.   

       And yes, it's not watchable either.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       If there were four or five footballs allowed in play at any one time it might be a little more exciting
hippo, Jan 30 2018
  

       Hmm. Different values for different balls?   

       Negative value balls that cancel out positive value balls? Kick a -1 ball in after a +1 ball to cancel it out?
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       Naturally. And random tunnels and tunnel entrances dotted around the pitch, so that when you kick the ball down a tunnel, it hits something like a pinball bumper (and scores some points) which hits it towards the tunnel exit so it pops up somewhere else on the pitch.

Actully, anything which adds pinball gameplay to football would be a good thing.
hippo, Jan 30 2018
  

       I like that too.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       // kick the ball down a tunnel, it hits something like a pinball bumper //   

       Have those for the players, too.
8th of 7, Jan 30 2018
  

       Have the players wear uniforms that sense when they've been hit by the ball. When a ball kits them, they're out.   

       Throw a stun gun into the thing to motivate them.   

       Or you could just have the ball be the stun gun and have the have the players wear insulating shoes and pants. Try to hit the guys above the waist to knock them out.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       [doc], in your version of the game, would the players have to hide inside full body protection, and cease playing every seven seconds to discuss things?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 30 2018
  

       Widely known go exist in Leeds (particularly in the 70s) and Glasgow (min four times a season)
calum, Jan 30 2018
  

       Regarding the critique of football that the action comes in extremely exciting ten second increments allowing for discussion and human interaction between the fans while the next play is set up ...no.   

       This is still soccer, where rather than having 60 or so very exciting moments during the game, there are 5 or 6 events called scores. The rest of the time is filled with players running around kicking a ball and moving back and forth like so many fish swimming in an aquarium. Only not quite as exciting.   

       See link showing why these delicate little flowers in the NFL wear padding. It's basically to keep blood off the field.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       Out of interest, in your new version, how many fatal injuries to players* would you expect in each match ? To the nearest half-dozen ?   

       *Spectators don't matter.
8th of 7, Jan 30 2018
  

       Hey, they aren't forced to play. Can't stand the voltage, stay out of the shock suit.   

       And why shouldn't the spectators be in as much danger as the players? I like that idea.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       This is some kind of sport, I believe, so I’ve heard, apparently.   

       Sport: people being paid to make a spherical object be in different places on an area of green.
Ian Tindale, Jan 30 2018
  

       Off-centre weights in some of the balls?
Wrongfellow, Jan 30 2018
  

       Have you seen a doctor about that?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 30 2018
  

       Not necessary, you can get over-the-counter ointment for that now.
8th of 7, Jan 30 2018
  

       LL.   

       How do sports announcers praise a player's "ball handling ability" with a straight face? Years of practice I guess.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       Dress them up as yellow furred hamsters and make them run around on all fours (as appropriate to their intellect), while thousands of sad idiots pay good money to watch this spectacle of laughable stupidity.
xenzag, Jan 30 2018
  

       Oi, [xen] - have a little respect for hamsters.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 30 2018
  

       Well, I'm poking fun at soccer but sports are an important part of civilization. Allows us to blow off our aggression in a harmless manner. Controlled aggression is necessary, without it you don't survive. Sports are also a celebration of excellence. It's not easy to throw a perfect spiral to a moving target 60 yards away and have it land perfectly where you want it. Probably takes a lot of talent to play professional soccer as well.   

       But you know what the main appeal of sports is to the masses? It's a meritocracy unlike so may of the positions that people fill today. Put it this way, you'll never hear: "Hey, that guy sucks? How come he's the quarterback of that major league football team? Ohhh, he's the owner's kid. Now I understand." If the owner of a billion dollar franchise has a kid that plays a particular position, but he's 10% worse than a total stranger, that total stranger is getting the job.   

       That's why we love sports. That and the people smashing into each other.   

       Poor Xen can't even make a joke without me disagreeing with it. As far as sports fans being "sad idiots", I don't see any indication that they're sad.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       What do you mean “we”? Some people like sports. Not all. I can’t stand sport, or games.
Ian Tindale, Jan 30 2018
  

       //What do you mean “we”?//   

       I've got a turd in my pocket.   

       But seriously, it is kind of fun to just go to a game, turn your brain off and yell at various motions. Put some money on the game as a way to care about who wins.   

       Being stupid every now and then can be the smart move. Give your poor brain a rest already.   

       Going to a baseball game is an excuse to sit in the sun, drink beer and bullshit with your buddies. Every once in a great while, something sort of interesting happens, then you go back to your hot dog, brewsky and talking about stuff.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2018
  

       I do really think the problem with soccer for Americans is that the ball is half-hidden by legs, and the lack of set plays confuses us. If it were to look more like basketball in size and scope we could catch on I think.   

       Who’s your team, doc? Niners? Chargers? Rams? Something not local?
RayfordSteele, Jan 30 2018
  

       Niners now that they got rid of Kaperneck and put somebody who stands for the National Anthem in at quarterback. Plus Garrapalo wins games.   

       Also a Patriots fan. Brady's a local boy from my area and he's a) excellent and b) hated by most of the country. Something about being excellent and unpopular seems really cool to me.   

       I went on line once to see what other people thought about rooting for two teams and some thought it was akin to having two different sex organs, a crime against nature. Others thought, like me, that it's a stupid game and you can do whatever you want.   

       What about you?
doctorremulac3, Jan 31 2018
  

       //and cease playing every seven seconds to discuss things? // They stop regularly to remind themselves of why chasing a ball around a field, dressed up as something that resembles an over-inflated industrial vacuum cleaner is important.
xenzag, Jan 31 2018
  

       The other thing I've always wondered is why they are so obsessed with numbered huts.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 31 2018
  

       We would make good adversaries. I live in what is currently the epicenter of poor teams, Detroit area. There isn’t a team for a day’s drive of here that I care to follow at the moment. The Colts are lousy, Detroit is past their 2 minutes of decency, and the Bears and Browns, ugh... If I cared about football that much I might gravitate back towards the Packers, but haven’t really followed them since Brett Favre left. Incidentally, I’ll get to meet Jason Hanson soon.   

       I’ll be rooting for the Eagles I guess. King George was unpopular too, and probably talented at the politics of intrigue. To me, Brady is the Clinton of football. Surprised he’s not dressing in pantsuits.   

       The knee thing is ridiculous. Protest is a national right, and choosing to do it during the national anthem is just working the spotlight.
RayfordSteele, Jan 31 2018
  

       //why they are so obsessed with numbered huts.//Practicing counting up to ten without using their fingers?
xenzag, Jan 31 2018
  

       Ray, as you know I love adversarial stuff. I think it's healthy and I think it's how we keep the straight and narrow path, fighting each other every step of the way. I think I'd be a bit disappointed if we were both rooting for the same football team, and I'm guessing you probably feel the same way.   

       That being said, may the best team win.   

       Good luck.
doctorremulac3, Jan 31 2018
  

       There are good ways to fight, and then there are low blows, and then there are places where the confrontational stuff just needs to keep away. It should not define a relationship.
RayfordSteele, Jan 31 2018
  

       We're in rare agreement.
doctorremulac3, Jan 31 2018
  

       I run a course in one of the world's best art colleges, training sardines to swim in formations that resemble Busby Berkeley routines. What could be more fun than that?
xenzag, Jan 31 2018
  

       //Going to a baseball game is an excuse to sit in the sun, drink beer and bullshit with your buddies. Every once in a great while, something sort of interesting happens, then you go back to your hot dog, brewsky and talking about stuff.//   

       I'll correct this: Watching any game is an excuse to sit, drink beer and bullshit with your buddies. Constant noise and movement of some sort allow attention to be divided arbitrarily between sport/buddy/thoughts of existential dread/new F150.   

       It's all very American, brutally efficient, it's the absolute minimum amount of sport necessary to cover the amount of time it takes to eat some wings and get properly drunk while never causing a rush at the bar/toilets. The excuse component seems to be an American prerequisite.   

       By contrast, in Britain, drinking is the sport and the various spectacles are there to try and slow it down a bit.
bs0u0155, Jan 31 2018
  

       //one of the world's best art colleges, training sardines to swim in formations//   

       So, you have an attic, an Etch-a-Sketch and a goldfish?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jan 31 2018
  

       //By contrast, in Britain, drinking is the sport and the various spectacles are there to try and slow it down a bit.//   

       We do that too.   

       //So, you have an attic, an Etch-a-Sketch and a goldfish?//   

       Sounds like a children's story. "The Attic, The Etch-a- Sketch and the Goldfish". It writes itself. "Bobby would spend hours in the attic with his Etch-a-Sketch and his pet goldfish... etc."   

       Know what's great about children's books? There's no such thing as a bad children's book because kids are completely satisfied to just read the words or have the words read to them. The appeal is the reading. I loved every stupid book I had growing up and they were all crap. There is no difference between the world's best and the world's worst children's book.   

       "For hours and hours, Bobby would sit and draw as Goldie would swim back and forth blowing bubbles. "Blub blub blub" Goldie would say. "Draw draw draw" the Etch-a- Sketch would say." etc etc.
doctorremulac3, Jan 31 2018
  

       No way man. Fox in Socks is 10 times better than any book featuring Elmo or that dreaded Cailloiu. It's even more fun trying to read it backwards.   

       Maybe tomorrow we tackle Ulysses...
RayfordSteele, Jan 31 2018
  

       Ugh! Cailloiu also comes in book form?   

       Now if you're talking about the ANIMATED "How The Grinch Stole Christmas", that's brilliant.   

       Any time an artform can bring young and old together liking something, that's impressive.
doctorremulac3, Jan 31 2018
  

       Sardines! The goldfish keep swimming in circles and forgetting where they've been.... Not that unlike American 'football' players running up and down then stopping every 5 seconds for a meeting to remind themselves of where they are.
xenzag, Jan 31 2018
  

       //Not that unlike American 'football' players running up and down then stopping every 5 seconds for a meeting to remind themselves of where they are.//   

       "Hmm, where am I? Oh yea, making twenty million dollars a year and banging smoking hot, solid 10 underwear models wherever I go."   

       "Then why so depressed Tank?"   

       "There's this angry little art teacher that doesn't respect me."   

       "Well tank, take solace in the fact that this scenario you're featured in, where a wildly successful man who makes tens of millions of dollars a year and is adored by millions cares about what somone like Xenzag thinks, could never actually happen in a million years."   

       "Xen who?"   

       "Exactly."
doctorremulac3, Feb 01 2018
  

       He has a point there.
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 01 2018
  

       I don't measure people in dollars. Nor do I care much for being admired or otherwise by masses of howling drunks.
xenzag, Feb 01 2018
  

       Then what are you doing here?
RayfordSteele, Feb 01 2018
  

       Missionary work. Ha
xenzag, Feb 01 2018
  

       I'm afraid your sardines have been anticipated by goldfish <link>
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 01 2018
  

       Ha! Goldfish are not too bright. If you feed them with enough iron filings, and deploy a powerful magnet, you can get them to do anything..... wonders if this is how American football works too?
xenzag, Feb 01 2018
  

       So do you hate sports in particular or just people having fun and being happy in general?
doctorremulac3, Feb 01 2018
  

       I hate sports in general, not in particular. And dogs. Well, dog owners, more. However, it’s a general passive hate, not an active one that I’m motivated to do anything about. At least, not at this age.
Ian Tindale, Feb 01 2018
  

       Why would football/soccer need violence when the fake violence is so entertaining already? [link]   

       //So do you hate sports in particular or just people having fun and being happy in general?// Chill..... Rem this is only about generating half baked ideas.
xenzag, Feb 01 2018
  

       //I hate sports in general//   

       I do see how somebody could have a bad experience with sports in childhood. When I moved to the good part of town in my late youth I couldn't throw a ball because where I grew up they didn't play sports. I was very lucky to meet some nice kids that showed me how it was done without tormenting me. Still, I got a late start.   

       I could play football ok, but I sucked at baseball. That didn't stop me from joining the baseball team though. I figured it was better to try something new that you're lousy at rather than being lousy at trying something new.
doctorremulac3, Feb 01 2018
  

       That is very nearly a piece of wisdom there, [doc].
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 01 2018
  

       Deep.   

       My own athletic forte was in not getting hit while being forced to play murder-ball.
A highly underrated skill in my opinion.
  

       //That is very nearly a piece of wisdom there//   

       Except for spelling the contraction of "You are" "your". I'll never get my face carved into the side of a mountain making 1st grade spelling mistakes like that.   

       Let me try again.   

       There's a big difference between having your face carved into the side of a mountain and hitting the side of a mountain with your face.   

       Ok, got my yours straight that time at least.
doctorremulac3, Feb 01 2018
  

       //not getting hit//   

       Respect; I was unable to master that one. ;-) It was character- building, apparently.
pertinax, Feb 01 2018
  

       One of my brothers in law and one of his sons are with increasing frequency attempting to engage me in conversation around the topic of American Football. I think they would like it if I could share what is in the UK very much a niche interest. I cannot. This isn't reflexive dislike. I have given it much thought. I wanted to give it a fair shake. After all, 323 million Americans can't all be wrong, can they? And the result of this thought is this: the reason that I don't like American football is that it is too busy. In each play, everyone on the field has a job to do - when the game is actually happening there is too much to take in all at once. It's overwhelming. This is ameliorated by the stop start nature which allows for replays, hollerin and analysis. But the action itself is a sensory overload, it makes my brain feel like Marty McFly after his opening chord in Back to the Future. And then there is the period where nothing substantive is happening, other than inconsequential replays, hollerin and analysis. The two states of ACTION and nothingness are switched between so abruptly, a binary waveform, it's like a good cop bad cop routine except that the bad cop is an airhorn and the good cop is that guy from accounts receivable will only ever speak about terrapins.   

       Soccerball on the other hand, does have periods of incredible boredom - sometime whole seasons long - but in that looser, less binary framework, you have the possibility of players like Berbatov or Le Tissier, indolent, unhelpful players who drift or, in the case of Le Tiss, clump, around the pitch, ignored by and ignoring the game around them, until they divine the chance for the improbable (e.g. Le Tiss against Newcastle), a flash of magic and then back to drifting aimlessly. In many ways, a match with Le Tiss playing - that is, the ideal football match - is like watching, from the questionable comfort of your future nursing home bed, a replay of your life, a lifeless samey grind, punctuated by a handful of moments of sublimity and wonder. I guess it all comes down to what matches your cultural experience better. American Football is maximalist, an assault, soccer is miserablist, a bleak night sky across which the aurora may, you hope, flash and throb. Whatever floats your culture.
calum, Feb 01 2018
  

       In praise of football. There's a reason why football is referred to as "the beautiful game". See last link for the agility and unmatched skills of the legend that was the totally amazing late George Best.   

       To see the sheer joy of a group of young people in a deprived environment playing a game of football brings hope in a bleak world. You don't need padding. You don't need special gear. You don't need to be a steroid hyped monster freak. You don't even need to be male. All you need is a ball, and you can even make that yourself too. Welcome to football - the most egalitarian game on the planet. The Beautiful Game.
xenzag, Feb 02 2018
  

       Yes, I'm sure Karl Marx would agree that if you have to tolerate a sport, one requiring nothing more than a cheap ball and a patch of dirt is more tolerable to the elites at the top than a billion dollar organization that employs thousands of people, feeding their families, stimulating the economy and allowing the poorest of the poor the chance to become multi millionaires.   

       Additionally, tens of thousands of poor young men go to college and get their education on football scholarships, a wonderful thing where players earn their way through college by playing the sport they love.   

       But you like the idea of poor people knowing their place. Destitute and hopeless, scuttling around on a patch of dirt, knocking a ten cent ball across a line scratched into the mud, hoping that through the largess of their superiors they might be thrown a clearly marked United Nations bag of rice after the game.   

       "Dance little prols! Dance for your masters!"
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       //Soccerball (as opposed to football's periods of boredom between plays) does have periods of incredible boredom - sometime whole seasons long//   

       DAMN! DAMN! DAMN! I wish I had said that. Well, turn out the lights, that was by far the best post of this thread. Don't think that's gonna be matched.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       A sad vision of the world, where the whole value in playing a game is only measured in money terms instead of the sheer joy that it brings. When I was growing up, we used our jerseys as goal posts. It's still that way on the streets. We had nothing. Nothing was needed but a ball and we never had a care in the world. That's something you'll never get. Football - "the beautiful game".
xenzag, Feb 02 2018
  

       ...that's impossible to watch.   

       //That's something you'll never get.//   

       Did I fail to mention that I played soccer every year growing up? By far my favorite sport to play.   

       Just can't watch it.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       //When I was growing up, we used our jerseys as goal posts. It's still that way on the streets. We had nothing. Nothing was needed but a ball and we never had a care in the world//

Hang on, you contradicted yourself - either you had nothing, or you had jerseys and a ball - which was it? When I were a lad we didn't even have those; we had to run about, imagining the ball and where the goalposts were.
hippo, Feb 02 2018
  

       You had legs and an imagination? Where I grew up we only had stumps and NO imagination. We'd roll around on the ground wondering what it would be like to imagine what it would be like to play soccer.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       When you learn to understand the structure of American football, you learn to appreciate it more. There are lots of pauses, to be sure, but these just play in to the melodrama. We like our melodrama, it plays in well with how we make our movies. Heck, we'll make shows about people weighing themselves if we can have some dramatic music and lighting added.   

       British shows are filled with too much standing around and chatting about things like the Queen's choice of titles for the new royal step-cousin. Much confusion as to when to get excited. Soccer is largely the same. I hated American football as a kid.   

       Had I played soccer, I might have grown to appreciate watching it. But I was an unathletic lank who struggled to be picked in the first half of the schoolyard call.
RayfordSteele, Feb 02 2018
  

       When you were rolling around with no arms and legs.....yawns.....
xenzag, Feb 02 2018
  

       I'm quite sure you're not laughing at my dumb joke. I'm guessing you don't do a lot of laughing.   

       //I was an unathletic lank who struggled to be picked in the first half of the schoolyard call//   

       I have to admit, I was very lucky to have been accepted at my new school with absolutely no athletic abilities whatsoever. Kids can be very cruel.   

       That being said, I had plenty of moments of childhood trauma where I'd drop the ball or strike out (come to think of it, it was all from baseball) but I tried not to let it get to me.   

       I also had the moments of success that put it all in perspective. That's the value of sports for children in my opinion. Teaches you how to lose with dignity, how to pick yourself up after a loss, how to work with others and how to not give up. You also get the reward of seeing hard work pay off.   

       The first time you see that ball go into the net it makes up for all the times the bigger, faster players took the ball away from you. Now YOU get to say "YEA BIG GUY! IN YOUR FACE!"   

       Which is why we're put on this Earth.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       Baseball was a yearly humiliation I was forced to compete in year after year with the same result. It drove any sense of sports accomplishment far far away from me.
RayfordSteele, Feb 02 2018
  

       Right there with ya man. I was horrible.   

       I remember befriending one guy on the team who was equally horrible. We became buddies and after one game went to his house to play in a treehouse his parent had made for him.   

       The treehouse was nicer than the house I grew up in. It was in the back yard of a palatial estate on the other side of town. Guessing this kid doesn't spend a lot of time feeling bad about missing all those grounders that were hit his way. Or if he does, he's doing it while sitting by the pool of his family mansion. I don't think he or his family put too much value on hitting a little ball.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       I really don't get sport. As far as I've learned so far, the only sport worth watching is Dab the Badger. Why this game isn't televised (outside of BBC Norfolk), I have no idea, as it is far more entertaining than mainstream sports. The injuries alone (which are spectacular but seldom fatal) make it worth watching, especially since it is customary to have 90 minutes of injury time after a 23-minute, two-chuquha match.   

       They (and I mean chiefly, Jerry Slacker and his county team) did try re-formatting the game to make it more commercial and to allow more advertising opportunities, but the 3-day matches were never really as exciting as the regular ones. The only hangover from that foray into commercialism is the retention of sponsors' logos on the shafts of the players' ladles.
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 02 2018
  

       Everything I know about foreign sports, I learned from watching Frazier.
Ian Tindale, Feb 02 2018
  

       This isn't a prank is it Max? If I Google "Dab the Badger" is some graphic, disgusting pornographic act going to pop up on my screen?   

       If so, well played.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       I doubt you'll get any hits, [doc]. D the B was originally a very rural entertainment in my part of the country. After its brief dabble with commercialization, it's reverted to a local sport. Matches are usually advertised by word of mouth, or simply by adhering to the well-known timetable for such events. The village with the oldest church in the parish - or the second-oldest if the oldest has a graveyard of less than three acres - hosts the first match of the season, on the first quarter-moon after the third neap tide. After that, matches rotate every second week, travelling around the parish clockwise. If the parish has more than 14 participating villages, matches are every week, excepting St. Rudel's day.
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 02 2018
  

       That’s in apple season, so it’ll be weathery around that time of year.
Ian Tindale, Feb 02 2018
  

       That needs a webpage Max.   

       My search came up with the posted link. It's a honey badger "dabbing" which is a kind of dance move the kids do.   

       Fun fact: the dab is against the law in Saudi Arabia.
doctorremulac3, Feb 02 2018
  

       What do you dab the badger _with_?   

       (Perhaps some kind of wax?)
Wrongfellow, Feb 02 2018
  

       Traditionally, it was pease pudding. Nowadays it a defined mixture with a bright yellow dye, for better visibility.
MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 02 2018
  

       Philadelphia cheesesteak, anyone?
RayfordSteele, Feb 04 2018
  

       Digging the Le Tiss love from calum. Sadly, sublime talent & craft are gradually being squeezed out of professional team sports & replaced by extremely fit, athletic automatons who provide almost zero entertainment value.
DrBob, Feb 05 2018
  
      
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