h a l f b a k e r yPoint of hors d'oevre
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Boeing 737 Max 9 Fuselage Cable Ties is the simple solution to this plane's tendency to shed its exterior body panels in midflight. (see link)
To get these unfortunate planes airborne again and inspire confidence in passengers, all that's needed are multiple reinforced ziplock cable ties running
around the body of the fuselage and positioned every few feet along its entire length.
Painted nice bright colours to make the plane look like a stripey flying tube with wings, the cable ties would be clearly visible to the passengers as they boarded, and with their streamlined edge profile, they would add a minimum increase in wind resistance and weigh next to nothing.
Their effect would be of course to secure those pesky fuselage panels in place so that no one ever gets sucked out should one try to spring off again.
Before each flight takes off, to add to the safety assurance, the ground crew would go along the length of the plane pulling on the dangling ends of the ties to demonstrate their tightness, before snipping off the ends.
On landing, the existing ties would be removed and a fresh set applied.
Boeing boeing bieonnnnnnnng!!!!
https://news.sky.co...ow-blowout-13043080
[xenzag, Jan 06 2024]
Boeing 737 MAX 9
https://www.seattle...-in-flight-blowout/
The entire 737 fuselage, including the door plug, is assembled in Wichita, Kan., by Boeing’s major supplier, Spirit AeroSystems. [a1, Jan 06 2024]
Math problem
https://globe.adsbe...imestamp=1704503625
A kid's shirt flies out of a hole from airplane at 16000 feet, climbing at 1800 ft/min, traveling SE at 380 kts (440mph). Does it land behind where the blowout happened or continue a little bit forward? [a1, Jan 07 2024, last modified Jan 08 2024]
Shocking and scary
https://m.belfastte...ns/a2126254207.html
abandon all hope ye who get on one of these airborne coffins [xenzag, Jan 08 2024]
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Autonomation
[hippo, Jan 08 2024]
https://en.wikipedi...iki/BOAC_Flight_781
[hippo, Jan 08 2024]
Testing to destruction
https://www.gocomic...ndhobbes/1986/11/26
[a1, Jan 08 2024]
CVR overwrite: TWA Flight 841
https://en.wikipedi...d%20not%20activate.
[bs0u0155, Jan 08 2024]
Door plug found
https://www.usatoda...d-ntsb/72147109007/
[bs0u0155, Jan 08 2024]
Flight path - not showing doors, shirts, or cellphones
https://globe.adsbe...imestamp=1704503625
Zoom in to intersection of hwy 26 & 217, that's where things were found [a1, Jan 08 2024]
Oh, THERE it is!
https://www.oregonl...-portland-home.html
Looks pretty good , must have landed on something soft [a1, Jan 08 2024]
More loose bolts found
https://www.bbc.co....-us-canada-67919436
[xenzag, Jan 08 2024]
Gonna need more zip ties!
https://www.politic...ts-cockpit-00134515
Rapid decompression makes cockpit door open (and won't latch closed). It's a feature, not a bug! [a1, Jan 09 2024]
It just gets worse the more you read about it.
https://edition.cnn...-factory/index.html
[xenzag, Jan 09 2024]
But seriously
https://www.seattle...d-tight-to-her-son/
About that kid who got his shirt ripped off - I'm no longer skeptical [a1, Jan 10 2024]
Or Duct Tape...
https://twitter.com...gPWli8q05lIYww&s=19
[bs0u0155, Jan 11 2024]
Ryanair hired to make sure Boeing fit the wings on the right way round
https://www.bbc.co....s/business-67994140
[xenzag, Jan 17 2024]
Why Ryanair isn't as bad as [xenzag] thinks
https://simpleflyin...s-bad-as-you-think/
While still giving a nod to the complaints... [a1, Jan 17 2024]
Ryanair - the most hated airline in Europe
https://amp.theguar...sixth-year-in-a-row
[xenzag, Jan 17 2024]
737 Toilet Door Jammed
https://www.reddit....toilet_due_to_door/
[bs0u0155, Jan 17 2024]
Boeing's new subcontractor
https://www.gocomic...sequitur/2024/01/23
[a1, Jan 23 2024]
[link]
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Obviously what happened was that whoever secured that panel failed to give it a confident pat and say "that sucker's not goin anywhere!" |
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I can tell you what's happened with Boeing here. They got cheap, laid off tons of union aerospace machinists (I know because I was one) and outsourced the work to Mexico, which is absolutely NOT to say that there's anything wrong with Mexican workers, but they're paying them, essentially, in refried beans and have an insanely high turnover at the plants in Mexicali and Zacatecas, so they have a chronic shortage of experienced workers. |
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I wouldn't fly in one of those new Boeings if they paid me. |
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Mexicali and Zacateca? Wichita, Kansas (link). |
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Interesting. I worked on ducts and floor panels, so I guess I assumed that when that work got shipped to Mexico, they shipped most of the rest down there too over the following years. You're absolutely right, and Spirit Aerosystems is a union shop too. There's "Made in America" for ya. |
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Aircraft is months old, had pressurization issues on the 4th. Looks like an installation issue followed by a failure of QC to catch it. From what little and relatively poor quality photos are available, you can see one of the blind-head fasteners is tilted. |
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Boeing is in trouble and got very lucky here. They could easily have lost a passenger. If the depressurization had occurred at 35,000 ft vs 16,000 it would have been much worse. Plus, they got lucky with the door, had it hit the rear horizontal stabilizer, or worse wrapped around it like the HS 748 near east midlands, they could have lost the aircraft. |
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Some piloting issues also, muddled language around the declaration of emergency. |
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The cable ties will need a tensile strength in the region of 12 tons BTW |
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Best not to pull them too tight then, or the plane will end up looking a fat person wearing multiple belts that are a bit too small. |
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I think they need zip ties for people's clothing too. One of the stories said a kid's shirt got ripped off of him. Not sure I believe that though, unless he happened to be changing clothes at that exact moment. |
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Interesting math problem though (link) - where would it land? |
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I actually got chewed out by my supervisor for scrapping too many defective parts, he said it wasn't my job to check them that closely and that should be left to QA. But I'd seen too many safety briefings about parts that had somehow gotten PAST the fine, infallible fellas at QA and been returned by the client, ie some other fine fellas over at Boeing. So I continued using the magnetic thickness gauge over at the QA table on any part that felt too soft to the touch, checked it against the spec, and saved QA the trouble. And then I got laid off and they shipped the workload down to Mexico. 5 months later they called and asked me to come back because of quality issues and insane turnover at the Mexico plant. So I came back, and one year and a 6 week strike later I got laid off AGAIN. |
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God help whoever flies on a Boeing aircraft today. |
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Thankfully none of the airlines I use fly Boeings - Ryanair use them which is another reason to avoid Ryanair. All of the ones I use fly Airbuses which are all made in the UK and Europe where standards of engineering are off the scale. The US has really slipped up on these flying coffins. This is what happens when greed has priority over health, safety and excellence. Bring out of those (made in China) zip ties. |
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See report in last link. Be prepared to be shocked. |
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"Investigators will not have the benefit of hearing what went on in the cockpit during the flight. The cockpit voice recorder – one of two so-called black boxes – recorded over the flight’s sounds after two hours." |
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Maaaaan that sounds shady as f*ck... |
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[21 Q] Interesting. Waiting until the end of the production process and relying on QA catching all the faults is the opposite of some manufacturing philosophies (see link) that seek to push fault resolution as far back in the manufacturing process as possible |
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ie Build them as cheaply as possible then when they fall out of the sky killing hundreds of people, try and figure out what's wrong with them. |
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Hmm, yes. Worth reading about BOAC Flight 781 (link) which is where I think the modern practice of crash investigation originated. Particularly interesting is the bit where they simulate a huge number of cycles of pressurisation and depressurisation of an airframe (to find out if this was fatiguing the metal) by taking a spare fuselage and repeatably filling and emptying it with water. |
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The new method is to repeatedly fill and empty them with fare paying passengers until they fall out of the sky then figure out why. |
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// simulate a huge number of cycles of pressurisation and depressurisation ... repeatably filling and emptying it // |
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Testing to destruction - link. |
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//One of the stories said a kid's shirt got ripped off of him. Not sure I believe that though, unless he happened to be changing clothes at that exact moment.// |
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I'm cautiously skeptical too. Explosions do remove clothes, even powerful releases of air, like tractor tire explosions etc. have been known to do it, but this would usually be accompanied by injuries. I suspect this is fuel for the upcoming compensation suit. |
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//The cockpit voice recorder – one of two so-called black boxes – recorded over the flight’s sounds after two hours."// |
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The 2 hour recording window was negotiated years ago, it's not a technical thing. The flight landed ~20 mins after departure, so that means the CVR was running for at least 1 hour & 20 minutes after landing. Now, I'm not saying this was deliberate, it is certainly plausible that the circuit breaker didn't get pulled because a lot of unusual things happened after landing. However, it's not the first time allowing overwriting of an incident as deliberate evidence obfuscation has been suspected, TWA flight 841 <link> for example. Pilots know about this. Unlike TWA 841, I don't suspect the flight crew did anything to precipitate the incident, but they may well have known they did SOMETHING wrong, certainly the radio comms suggest a lack of clear thinking. |
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//Worth reading about BOAC Flight 781 (link) which is where I think the modern practice of crash investigation originated.// |
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At the behest of Churchill, no less. Britain developed air crash investigation, found the cause and disseminated the information to all, giving up it's lead in jet airliner development. |
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Coulda been a flimsy shirt. |
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Interesting too about where they found the door. The plane was pretty far past that spot when it was passing through 16000 feet (link). Falls off while flying southeast at 440 MPH, winds aloft blowing 50 MPH to the east ... and it hits the ground 10 miles NNW? I think it must have popped a minute or so earlier and media report "at about 16000 feet" more reflects when the pilots reported the emergency,. |
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//and it hits the ground 10 miles NNW?// |
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Who knows what the winds were through the whole descent. Exact moment of separation can be inferred from the pressure so that will be easy to nail down from the FDR. You're correct however, media have to go from radio comms, so actual event must be earlier. |
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In the news tonight…. more of these flying coffins found to have loose bolts on those door plugs. Good luck to anyone who’s brave enough or mad enough to board one these disastrous flying lego-land planes. BBC link |
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Awesome! Boeing is down 8% - I'm gonna let it slide a few more points before I pick up some (more) shares. |
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If you wait a little longer it's inevitable that another one of these dreaded planes will fall out of the sky. I hate to say it, but all of the evidence points towards general incompetence: ie lack of quality control; corner cutting; bad design: poor engineering and a couldn't care less attitude about health and safety. It's the poor passengers I feel sorry for as greedy Boeing laughs all the way to the bank. They should at least fit the zip ties to create the illusion of doing something. Instead of that, expect a PR onslaught to limit the damage to their stock value. Anyone flying on them is mental. |
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Read Airframe by Michael Crichton. Not his best novel, but very fitting here. |
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For reference, the big automated machines that do a lot of the structural riveting these days are made by the same company that made the OceanGate submarine hull. |
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I interviewed with them when I was just a bright and shiny new MechE. |
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// Airframe by Michael Crichton.// It's probably a decade since I read this, but I remember it being good. Also (former de Havilland engineer) Nevil Shute's 1948 "No Highway" describes a new airliner falling victim to metal fatigue, just like the crash of the de Havilland comet in 1954. |
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Gonna need more zip ties - for inside the plane to hold the cockpit door closed (link). |
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Why not just make the whole machine out of the same stuff they make zip ties from? |
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Internal communications released during the 737 Max grounding showed one employee describing the jet as “designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys.” See CNN link |
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Very interesting discussion on the radio earlier on Boeing’s deliberate shift a few years ago to focus on “shareholder value” rather than just engineering excellence. This led to the move of the HQ away from Seattle and moving manufacturing abroad. As with other corporations who did the same (GE, ICI), it hasn’t gone well. |
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// Why not just make the whole machine out of the same stuff they make zip ties from? // |
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Often made of Nylon/66. Poor UV resistance, but you could spec a different material. |
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// “designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys.” // |
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Great quote. Bet you wish said it first. |
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//Often made of Nylon/66. Poor UV resistance, but you could spec a different material.// |
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Plastic + carbon, so 787/A350 then |
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Nylon 66 would be terrible under creep loading. |
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It seems to me that Boeing is too cozy with the FAA inspectors and vice-versa. |
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At my workplace the gov gets into our business and takes the impetus away from us to make a quality product; there's always money to fix it later. |
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//Nylon 66 would be terrible under creep loading.// |
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Glass fiber reinforcement and aluminized backing for UV, so Duck/duct tape? <link> |
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//It seems to me that Boeing is too cozy with the FAA inspectors and vice-versa. // |
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Yes. Clearly. There's an awful lot of overlap between Boeing and the US government in many ways. It's clear the govt. has acted in ways to help Boeing compete globally with anti-trust leniency among others. Boeing is one of only two remaining military aircraft makers, the air force, navy and army are completely dependent upon them. There's a lot of leverage there. |
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Coming the other way, it's easy to see how the FAA want an easy life. Among other things, how many FAA officials responsible for oversight of Boeing projects have a history (or future) working for Boeing? Same problems with major polluters and EPA officials. |
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The US aircraft industry would benefit from competition, but given the complexity of modern military and civilian aircraft it's hard to see how smaller firms could handle projects of that scale. Boeing bet the firm on the 747, ut worked out. Lockheed did the same with the L-1011, it didn't. Convair? Douglas? similar fates. |
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Can it get any worse? Well yes it can certainly get more farcical for now Boeing has asked budget airline Ryanair to help them check if their planes are screwed together with the right size of nuts and bolts. No doubt they will send some of their boarding technicians who check on suitcase sizes using a metal box. If the suitcase doesn't fit completely into the box, Ryanair charges you an arm and a leg extra. I'm sure they can easily adopt this vital process to checking on Boeing's rivets, springs and glue useage. (see BBC link) |
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Despite being a budget airline flying Boeing planes, Ryanair has an excellent safety record. Largest airline in Europe, never had a fatal accident, consistently rated as one of the world's safest airlines. |
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Big, profitable, excellent safety record, AND [xenzag] mocks them - must be doing something right! |
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You have obviously never used Ryanair. I pay extra to avoid them. Yes they're cheap but universally loathed for good reasons, and now they're in charge of Boeing's assembly lines hahahaha. The fact that they operate Boeing aircraft have clearly put a panic into their PR dep.... Boeing - Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid - but fear no more, Ryanair to the rescue! |
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You're right - I've never flown Ryanair and I wouldn't dispute your personal dissatisfaction. But that has nothing to do with their technical acumen, maintenance or safety records. |
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And as they're the largest and most profitable airline in Europe, I'd guess the loathing isn't "universal." |
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People use them because they're cheap. That doesn't equate with liking. No one likes Ryanair. |
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Even if I take your word on what everyone likes or doesn't like, it's irrelevant to Ryanair's safety record. |
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Nearly forty years in service, zero fatalities, very low accident & injury rate overall when you look at number of passenger/miles flown and compared against the industry. Seems reasonable to look to them for maintenance, inspection, and safety expertise. |
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// I'd guess the loathing isn't "universal."// |
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They're pretty awful. They charge for everything, including charging for things. But, they're so cheap and have so many flights that it makes journeys possible, where they wouldn't be without ludicrous expense. Even ~18 years ago, they were solving problems for me. Liverpool to Harlow via train on a Sunday was about 12hrs on and off trains and busses because of line maintenance. Liverpool to Paris to Stansted was about 4 hours door to door and a 1/3rd of the price. |
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//Nearly forty years in service, zero fatalities, very low accident & injury rate overall when you look at number of passenger/miles flown// |
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It is an excellent record. Particularly when they're not doing the kind of flying that racks up miles. Lots of take-off and landings* in relatively short legs. Those are the more dangerous phases of flight and the cycles are tougher on aircraft. |
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They do have things on their side however, short haul is better for crew fatigue. They operate only one aircraft type, simplifying things dramatically through training and maintenance. They fly through safe airports in well controlled airspace. |
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* a perfectly equal number of each at the moment. |
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They fly Boeings which means it’s only a matter of time before one of them falls out of the sky, and Ryanair are clearly worried about Boeing’s dismal assembly line standards and corner cutting to increase profits. |
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// They operate only one aircraft type // |
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Boeing. Which our resident expert on both aircraft safety and customer dissatisfaction will assure you are deathtraps. |
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BTW, good point on them being short haul - you're absolutely right about all that entails. |
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// it’s only a matter of time before one of them falls out of the sky // |
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That may be statistically true of every airplane make and model. But 40 years without a fatality, and only serious* accident they've had (in 2008) suggests they're beating the odds. |
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* Ryanair Flight 4102 - didn't exactly "fall out of the sky." Hard emergency landing after a bird strike, may have been avoidable. Twelve minor injuries if you don't count the flock of starlings. Collapsed landing gear and damaged engines, plane written off as a hull loss, still the only one in Ryanair's history. |
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//our resident expert on both aircraft safety and customer dissatisfaction will assure you are deathtraps.// Their record speaks for itself. I'm not afraid of flying but won't ever get on one of those vile 737s - as a reminder: "The Boeing 737 MAX passenger airliner was grounded worldwide between March 2019 and December 2020 – longer in many jurisdictions – after 346 people died in two similar crashes: Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29, 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 on March 10, 2019" |
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//BTW, good point on them being short haul// |
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It's baked into the business model. They buy new aircraft in bulk at a good discount with minimal accessories like IFE etc. They then have a fleet that is gaining hours and cycles quite quickly, but it's new, and so can tolerate it. It means they're free to keep aircraft and expand or any point they can sell older parts of their fleet on the global market should the prices vary in their favor. |
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Ryanair is a different beast nowadays however, it's at least 5 airlines/brands now. Still, their fleet is almost entirely 737-800 or MAX-8. There's an extent to which they got lucky. Relying so heavily on one aircraft & engine package is a gamble. If they'd had a fleet wide issue, because of something like the Rolls Royce Trent 1000 durability problems, they'd have been in real trouble. But, they gambled on the 737 and it's CFM engines, the most conservative choice in the first instance and the choice with most alternative options in the second. |
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//Their record speaks for itself.// |
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The record does speak for itself actually. Historically, it's excellent. The very worst of modern aviation is the worst of the best industry that's ever been, in it's best period. |
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// I'm not afraid of flying but won't ever get on one of those vile 737s// |
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Just the MAX8/9, or all 737 sub types? |
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//as a reminder: "The Boeing 737 MAX passenger airliner was grounded worldwide....// We shouldn't let this be forgotten. We can't allow Boeing and the FAA to slink back into a lazy & cosy relationship. If we had competent journalism and a public with any attention span, it would be nice to see enough background concern to start affecting sales. The only thing that matters to Boeing apparently. It would make a big statement if Ryanair ordered a few Airbus products. |
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In response to door and window issues, Boeing hired a new subcontractor (link). |
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I'm adding chicken wire wrapping to the engine pods to contain all the bits when they fall off these flying coffins. (as per a recent Boeing flight) No one wants Boeing engine parts landing in their garden when they're out mowing the lawn, or doing anything outside generally. The chicken wire should suffice esp if it's made of high strength, stainless steel strands. |
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Connect the cables from the engine wraps to a good, strong bedrock-embedded beam to guarantee the safety of passengers. |
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I like the bright colours scheme. But rather than using (relatively) expensive ground crew to zip-tie the panels to the fuselage, would it not provide better shareholder value to transfer responsibility to the cabin crew by zip-tieing the passengers in place so they can't get sucked out? Perhaps nail their hands & feet in place too for extra assurance of safety?
Also, as I sufferered a similar fate (although I actually did quite well out of it), my sympathies go to 21Q on being a fellow victim of shareholder value. |
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//my sympathies go to 21Q on being a fellow victim of shareholder value// |
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It should be fine, long term. There's "too big to fail" and then there's being a central component of the military-industrial complex. |
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