h a l f b a k e r yIt might be better to just get another gerbil.
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Okay, but can't you just set the seatbelt, then sit on it? |
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Anyone here remember the faux seatbelt idea? |
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I've gota say, there have been so many seatbelt-caused fatalities, three that I know of personally, that make me wonder, should an adult not be able to make up their own minds about whether to wear them or not?
The choice could always factor into insurance claims if it came to that, but I still think it should be a choice, once you are old enough to make it for yourself. |
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Just one example:
My wife's brother was killed at eighteen because he was the only one in the vehicle wearing a seatbelt. He was asleep at the time and snapped his neck because he was belted. There are numerous other examples, and although I know that seatbelts save more lives than they take, the burgeoning nanny state picks my ass.
If you've made it to adulthood without being a Darwin award candidate you deserve the choice to opt in... or out. |
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I think the notion that stupidity leads to death is somewhat incomplete. Sure, if you can't see up from down then you're fucked, but a little risk taking goes a long way in this life. That is, I think I disagree (with the darwin awardists). |
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Also, [21], regarding the soloist driver: they can still fly out of the window and hit other people, so the middle ground you make there may still be unstable. hm? |
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Hmm. I am strongly in favour of seatbelts, and (thinking
about it) strongly opposed to legislation that enforces their
wearing. The world is too full of "you can't do this because it
poses a marginal risk to others and because the
consequences of it are expensive to society" ers. |
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Daseva, you have my permission to be stupid. [+] |
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People might drive more safely without them (the steering wheel spike theory), however, someone else's error might result in another's death. |
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"you can't do this because it poses a marginal risk to others and because the consequences of it are expensive to society" ers.
Really? So you don't mind my standing in front of your house, blindfolded, whirling around and shooting a pistol randomly then? |
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Double plus good for the above ano ;-) |
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"Your right to [[stand] in front of [a] house, blindfolded, whirling around and shooting a pistol randomly] ends where your neighbours nose begins". |
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Or, at least, where it began. |
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//standing in front of your house, blindfolded, whirling around and shooting a pistol randomly then?// |
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The chances of you hitting anyone would, as a guesstimate, be in the 1 in 1,000 order of magnitude. (assuming you're not standing in the middle of a crowd.) |
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The chances of an unrestrained body clearing the dash, penetrating a windshield, then penetrating another windshield with enough KE left over to impart injury is next to nothing. When exactly was the last time you've heard of a documented case of this happening? |
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If you really see this as a legislation-worthy risk, then x-rays and fast-food will be illegal long before seatbelt use for single occupants. |
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No no no, we already covered the legislation for prohibiting use of this device with passengers. If what was said a few back annos is true then I feel a real go can be had with this (provided the device can disengage with weight distributions from passengers). |
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What [Daseva] said, [21Quest]. |
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<pokes [21Quest] with [21Quest] poking stick> |
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//Really? So you don't mind my standing in front of your
house, blindfolded, whirling around and shooting a pistol
randomly then?// |
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Well, what you're doing there is really rather silly, isn't it?
(I mean, posing the question, not the gun-shooting
business.) |
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I am happy for you to do as you please, as long as the risk
and cost to me are both extremely small. I'm happy to let
you drive a car (which, statistically, has a small chance of
killing me). I'm even happier to let you not wear a
seatbelt in your car (which has an infinitesimally small
chance of killing me). I'm also happy for you to skydive, go
microlighting, climb mountains and smoke in any
combination you wish - even though all of these activities
stand quite a good chance of costing me (as a taxpayer)
money. |
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What annoys me is when people say "there is a one in
[insert very large number] chance that this person's fun
will cost me some money or injure or kill me. Therefore,
regardless of how large the number is, I don't think they
should be allowed to do it." |
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Now you know better than that - it isn't that the odds are small I'll hit you, it's that the odds are good I'll hit *somebody*. Eventually. |
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Improving the odds I survive reduces the overall burden on society (I don't have to cover the driver's medical costs, take care of the family the driver left behind, etc). The cost of airbags and seatbelts are already rolled up into the cost of the vehicle. Using them is free so the burden on the driver is nominal and not, in my opinion, intrusive. |
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Now if you want to propose "unbelted driver insurance" to cover this driver's demise, I'm good with that (but it's really just another seat belt in disguise). |
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[Pheonix], What you are reffering to is called liability insurance. It is the least amount of coverage you can get and still legally drive. You don't have to survive, for me to take out a claim against your insurance. |
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Yes, but by the same reasoning, you should pay extra taxes if
you do anything which poses any risk to others or to yourself.
How about a burger tax, a skiing tax, a mountaineering tax, a
salt-tax, a living-in-a -dangerous-part-of-town tax, a not-
going-for-regular-checkups tax......the list is endless and the
costs are real. |
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Live and let live a bit is all I'm saying, n'k? |
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"burger tax, a skiing tax, a mountaineering tax, a salt-tax, a living-in-a -dangerous-part-of-town tax, a not- going-for-regular-checkups tax"
Those things all exist, m'kay? Sometimes literally - my city has a fast food tax - and sometimes vicariously - one pays higher insurance rates for living in the dangerous part of town. My point is these things are a reality of life and, while we can't eliminate risk we can reduce it. Making people get drivers licenses doesn't eliminate accidents, but it makes sure people know what they're getting in to. Don't wear a seatbelt if you don't want, but don't pass the costs on to me. M'kay? |
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//don't pass the costs on to me// |
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[Pheonix], I hope you do not indulge in fattening foods, pre-marital sex, changing radio stations while driving, listening to the radio at all while driving, driving while sleepy, working while sleepy, staying up too late and being sleepy the next day, watching t.v., wasting food, using disposable packaging, using air conditioning, doing anything that emits carbon monoxide or other poisonous/green house gasses, swimming without a life vest, coughing around others while sick, being around others while sick, anything short of completely quarantining yourself while sick, not getting enough fiber, not eating enough vegetables, eating more than you need to ... etc, etc, ad nauseum. |
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Else you would be a HUGE hypocrite. |
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This thread is decidedly bringing out my cold blooded side, but as far as insurance costs, isn't there some evidence that its cheaper for the insurance company to pay out a death benefit (for the non-belted individual), then to pay out persistent injury claims (whiplash, etc for the belted individual). |
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I dunno. I figure either way if Daseva is happier driving
without a seatbelt now and again, I won't begrudge the 0.05p
or whatever it is that it might cost me. Of course, if I were
a miserly killjoy, I might. |
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This seems like a small point after all the above, but, the idea is baked, in Spain at least, for taxi drivers, who are not obliged to where seatbelts in urban areas. So, the don't. The simple solution is to use an empty clip, to stop the pinging. |
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The argument goes that they need to get in and out of the car often, I've been told. They do have to put their belt on outside town. |
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//Max, aren't you from a country with a television tax? // |
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I am (actually it's a charge levied for TV viewing to support,
allegedly, non-commercial broadcasting). Your point being? |
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[MikeD] - I enjoy many of those things, and I pay for them all in one way or another. (I'm also a hypocrite and I pay for that, too.) |
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To be clear, I'm all for letting this hypothetical person drive without a seatbelt - he or she just might need to pay a slightly higher insurance premium. Or not, if the insurance companies decide he's saving them money. |
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way back when metal dinosaurs roamed the Earth, seatbelt laws had to overcome cultural inertia; today there's really no excuse. |
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(does anybody have a link to an old PS or PM article which featured the conception of a highway-car that had an open-air patio at the back ?) |
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You can come to drive in New Hampshire! They mean it when they say "Live Free or Die". (seat belt law currently only applies to children under 12) There are always 2 sides to this. Whilst I love driving without a seat belt, I've worn one ever since I was in a car accident in 2000. On the other hand, my son-in-law would have been decapitated if he was wearing one in his car accident, as he was thrown from the car and then the roof caved it... |
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//To be clear, I'm all for letting this hypothetical person drive without a seatbelt // |
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<sounds trumpets to cancel the call to arms> |
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Apologies. I get worked up about percieved infringments upon rights. |
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hey, back when we were kids, we road on the open tailgate of my Dad's station wagon!! and then there is the pick up truck bed, and oh in Mexico I saw a huge flat bed truck that picked up people that just stood up for the whole ride. |
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Two words: "Darwin Award". |
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I would use this in circumstances where I don't necessarily need a seat belt. Like when I am re-arranging cars in the driveway or I am doing some sort of repair or other procedure on my car that requires the engine to be running with the door open. I use my seat belt, however, it gets to be very annoying when I am I just moving the car to the other end of the lot or tuning up the engine. |
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I think I read that the Russians routinely cut the seat belt and then clip the amputated end into the helder to keep the alarms quiet. This works if you do not ever intend to use the belt. Alternatively one could harvest belt clips from junked cars and use them, keeping your own belt intact should you wish to use it. |
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I will allow you to not wear a seatbelt just as soon as your family promises not to sue me for wrongful death when you die after I have a minor accident with you. |
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Yeah, living in a litigation state sucks just like living in a nanny state sucks, but the truth is, in a we live in a state of both. |
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People are unwilling to accept the consequences of doing stupid things, and therefore they can't be allowed to do stupid things. I want YOU to wear a seatbelt for MY safety. |
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Many people are killed by idiots who don't wear seat belts. This is because they become fast moving projectiles during a high-speed impact. Back seat passengers often kill those sitting in the front. This is NOT a matter of choice, any more than it is in a plane. Not wearing a belt is selfish, stupid, irresponsible and dangerous. |
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[xenzag] - we did that argument about two screenfulls ago. |
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Here's to selfishness, stupidity, irresponsibility and
dangerousness. |
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