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Handwriting/Ink Sample Study of 2020 Ballots

too soon?
  (+5, -1)
(+5, -1)
  [vote for,

We have a crisis, in that the left in the US assumes all efforts for voter id are voter suppression, and the right assumes that mail in votes, especially are prone to wide spread fraud

My biggest concern with mail in votes is that you cannot guarantee a secret ballot, and you cannot tell me that a situation where a bunch of people came into a room, said - - fill these out this way -- couldn't have happened -- in a a way that absolutely cannot happen even if you're busing someone to a poll place.

While it's inevitable that in some families one person filled out the ballots, and perhaps in some cases (though it's illegal) signed for multiple voters -- a comprehensive study of submitted mail in ballots should be able to reveal:

1. The ratio of separate handwriters to ballots 2. The ratio of separate inks (ink pens?) used to fill such ballots out.

At the very least, such a study could reassure that roughly the same # of people filled out the ballots as theoretically voted.

theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

a sample ballot https://votebymailn...eral-election-2020/
[theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021]

Anonymous Voting Cards Anonymous_20Govt_20...ed_20Voting_20Cards
[theircompetitor, Mar 18 2021]

If only Republicans could be more like Democrats and accept election results graciously. https://www.electio...-to-rig-an-election
But seriously, when this was all happening, despite how much I loathe the NEW Democrat party, I of course completely supported critical review of these systems. [doctorremulac3, Mar 19 2021]

some news about the way the media lies https://youtu.be/q4NxLWmmsqs
[xandram, Mar 21 2021]

The original recording ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VIJU3M-kKhI
... though not identical, is actually very similar to what was originally reported - so the correction is not that big a deal. [pertinax, Mar 21 2021]

Marc Elias ... https://www.law.com...turn=20210221190625
... according to law.com. Is law.com itself a reliable sorce? It looks respectable, but I hadn't heard of it before. [pertinax, Mar 21 2021]

Sydney Powell argues that no one in their right mind would believe her... https://www.cnn.com...on-fraud/index.html
I think her theory of these people having a "right mind" is overestimated. [RayfordSteele, Mar 23 2021]


       This is a reasonable proposal with the goal of optimistic cooperation, and as such it will be ignored.
sninctown, Mar 15 2021

       Most folks do not understand that recounting the mail in ballots is completely pointless.   

       What would have to be checked are the tearoff sections where one attests that they voted by themselves, or had help etc.   

       Those are not -- I believe -- present when votes are tallied. Recounts are irrelevant.   

       It is those tear off cards that need to be examined. The below is quoted from one of the "how are votes counted" articles:   


       All of these pre-checks are done with the envelope closed. So we can’t tell by looking at the envelope if the voter is Republican or Democrat or Independent or how they voted. When we slice open the envelope, we do it in a way where you can’t see the voter’s signature and the ballot at the same time. We remove the ballot, but don’t unfold it, and we do this, of course, around a table with multiple poll workers or election judges. And so everyone’s a check on each other to make sure that no one’s trying to be silly and trying to see how somebody voted.   

       Once those are removed, then we unfold the ballot and examine it, looking for tears, blood, sticky stuff that might get stuck in the machines. Then we place the ballots in batches from the time we receive them, and we reconcile at each point throughout the process to make sure we don’t lose any ballots or that no new ballots are introduced incorrectly or improperly into the system.   

       So as you see -- the assumptions about "fraud" are about someone checking and throwing out ballots from either party. Can't give a fuck about that, and yes, likely not a meaningful problem.   

       So then the other question is are signatures actually checked versus registrations, are they checked at all, and are they checked for "same person filled out a dozen or a 100 ballots".   

       And my bet would be that they're not. And they should be.
theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

       I'd want it on all mail-in ballots.   

       And btw, given the numbers that voted in this last election, including all the first time voters, what signatures were they compared against? Do I recall correctly that I just got a ballot and didn't ask for one? Nor did my dead mom? I think I recall correctly.   

       I cannot be convinced that a mail-in ballot is secure, or secret. It just cannot be done.   

       But I could at least be convinced the number of humans filling them out matched the number of humans voting. I don't think it's too much to ask.
theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

       something on the scale of what was done with the hanging chads should suffice.   

       more specifically, it'd be great if the scanning machine itself could have enough "ai" to notice signature similarities. But if we're making a study, obviously you'd examine precinct by precinct.   

       Once you've loaded all the images from the envelopes -- presuming such physical stuff exists -- probably it does not -- then why would the AI care whether the file was loaded in Sheboygan or NYC?   

       Maybe once loaded, the left can use that AI for all future elections, sounds like that would save a lot of folks a lot of time, effort and money
theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

       I'm of two minds on the matter of mail-in voting. But gathering and analyzing a statistically significant (in this case you want a huge number, since you're looking for such a small variance) percentage of signatures separate from their ballots should be informative without treading on the constitution.   

       Signatures from contested and uncontested areas should be analyzed each as a group without the analyzer knowing which is which. I just don't understand the people saying we should never ever question the validity of an election. To not do so looks to me like a fast ride to tyranny land.   

       I'm not saying that because I like Trump (I don't) or because I dislike Biden. I'm saying that because I want to maintain free elections for my children.
Voice, Mar 15 2021

       I'm no big fan of Trump and certainly even less so of Biden.   

       But however much blame conspiracy theories bear, and however much blame social media bears, and however much blame Russian or Chinese interference bears, and however much truth there is in voter suppression here and voter fraud there:   

       You are bound, in our Republic, to have some meaningful portion of the population be unhappy after every election.   

       But you cannot have a situation where a meaningful portion of the population doubts the actual validity of the count.
theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

       It seems perfectly possible to me, as that is the current situation.
Voice, Mar 15 2021

       yes, of course, just not very sustainable...
theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021

       A proper study would eliminate or prove those concerns. It would also leave us more willing to question our elections, which would leave us more willing to work to assure their validity.
Voice, Mar 15 2021

       Every-one votes by mail, signs it, and includes a drop of their own blood (I considered signs with their own blood, but I decided that was a bit too much...). DNA comparisons ensure each ballot is from a unique person.
neutrinos_shadow, Mar 15 2021

       Would you settle for a hair?
RayfordSteele, Mar 15 2021

       What [sninctown] said. [+]
pertinax, Mar 15 2021

       What [pert] said that [sninctown] said.   

       As this will never ever happen I have an alternative proposal, lets just jump straight to the heart of the problem (literally) & butcher every politician, reporter & editor (both TV & paper), presenter, director & producer on the planet (Joss Whedon & a few select others special acceptations of course) regardless of their political affiliation so we can start fresh.   

       All the lawyers too of course, just because they're lawyers, nobody likes them.   

       Anyone in the lobbying industry counts as a politician for this naturally.   

       We can have a barbecue, make a party of it.
Skewed, Mar 16 2021

       Thinking again, how confident are we that the technology exists to do this? Presumably, if you look at the signatures of tens of millions of people, some of them will, legitimately, have *very* similar handwriting. So, I'm changing my vote to [=] until this question is addressed.
pertinax, Mar 16 2021

       // alternative proposal
Looking at the history of past revolutions (the French Revolution comes to mind) they generally seem to create at least as many problems as they solve, tend to go off the rails pretty much immediately, and tend to be taken over by some other questionable faction. That's not a very appealing alternative. The lesson from software engineering is to patch and refactor the code, not start over. I think the Internet memes still spread faster than the censorship, so the truth will get out such as it is.
sninctown, Mar 16 2021

       But I've already got the barbi fired up, & what am I supposed to do with all this honey mustard I just ordered in?   

       //patch and refactor// Umm, that's exactly what I said wasn't it, nothing about changing any institutions or our democracy, just a little purge of a few people at the top.   

       Well OK, a 'lot of people' at the top, but you have to admit it's all a bit top heavy right now (the nice man with a Kalashnikov about to knock on your door will make sure of that) & can do with a prune to allow some fresh growth, besides, I've still got all this mustard & I want a barbecue.
Skewed, Mar 16 2021

       Well, as they say in the 41st millennium: "victory needs no explanation. defeat allows none."   

       I'd suggest thinking of a general rule that describes what you don't like -- some rule that if applied equally to everyone would disallow whatever it is you don't want. Then, tell people about it and discuss improvements.   

       My preference is mocking the ruling class on the Internet: for failing to understand let alone appreciate the possibilities for space colonization (not seeking infinite exponential growth in space), for failing to live up to the example set by their forebears (not making enough of their own ideas; instead relying on the help/professional investors), for failing to lead humanity in a positive direction (not correcting e.g. South Korea's <1 fertility rate), and for having bad taste (not building anything other than endless copies of versailles and/or brutalist fallingwater). I'm not sure what this achieves but it seemed like a good idea at the time.
sninctown, Mar 16 2021

       //I'd suggest thinking of a general rule that describes what you don't like -- some rule that if applied equally to everyone would disallow whatever it is you don't want//   

       Too much gristle? yes definitely too much gristle, pork chop anyone?
Skewed, Mar 16 2021

       //I'd suggest thinking of a general rule [...]//   

       Kant suggested that, too, sort-of (look up Categorical Imperative). It was a good suggestion.
pertinax, Mar 16 2021

       I much prefer Rousseau as a philosopher, more direct with his ideas, which might be paraphrased as "mend your ways, or else" [raises an eyebrow] anyone want mustard with that? I've got lots.
Skewed, Mar 16 2021

       Are you still blathering about the fact you lost an unloseable election, [tc]?   

       It's over. Trump's dodgy legal team couldn't even move the dial with their bluster and shouting and absolute lack of evidence.   

       Lay back and enjoy the nascent social democracy that smarter people than the GOP have finally brought to the Benighted States of America.
UnaBubba, Mar 18 2021

       // bluster and shouting and lack of evidence
I also enjoy projecting
sninctown, Mar 18 2021

       + There is only lack of evidence when the media refuses to acknowledge the evidence that actually exists. If everyone believes what the media says we’re in a sad state…
xandram, Mar 18 2021

       As some one who has lived in a dictatorship, a parliamentary democracy, and in the US, I am 100% convinced that the thing that makes the US unique (and has throughout it's history, warts and all) is it's limitations on majority rule. So despite as being viewed as a leftover of the past, the filibuster, the Electoral College, they serve to slow the pace of change and laws are more stable and many things require super majorities.   

       So yes, we are all aware that in most elections in the current climate, the left would gather more total votes, but they are not at 60/40. We cannot continue, in the US, to have elections that a minority of 45 or so percent does not believe are accurate. As out there as folks like the Shaman or QAnon accolades may be, I'm sure he never doubted for a second Obama's win totals in 08 and 12. We cannot have what the Dems engineered in 2020 -- people have to be able to believe the voting totals.   

       It is beyond frustrating to go to a Target and see it's swamped with people, and hear about how difficult it would have been to go and vote. The insistence on the avoidance of any kind of ID because it's too difficult to get IDs is an absurdity on its face. The willingness to accept ballots that are not guaranteed to be secret is way to convenient for the one party that focuses on organizing voters via unions.   

       But ultimately none of that is the key -- the key is the consent of the governed -- and even if the governed are pretty fucken unreasonable, if you don't have their consent, you can't govern.
theircompetitor, Mar 18 2021

       There is no problem getting an ID, unless you are black.
There is no problem registering to vote, unless you are black.
There is no problem with being shot by police, unless you are black.

       You don't have a voting problem, [tc], you have a fucking racism problem, and no-one will stand up to the white supremacist arseholes in your society and tell them the hard truth that they are not god's chosen people; they are not the master race, and they are not entitled to bully and denigrate and revile and marginalise the 15% of the US population who are black.
UnaBubba, Mar 18 2021

       //We cannot have what the Dems engineered in 2020//   

       What. The. Actual. Fuck
RayfordSteele, Mar 18 2021

       Racism here is a manufactured problem.   

       I watch alternative media and after the election I saw voters testify that they had gone to the polls to vote and they were told they had already voted. These are white people, middle-class people and just regular people whose votes were stolen.   

       you can divide Americans into two classes.Starbucks or Dunkin’ donuts
xandram, Mar 18 2021

       [RayfordSteele], right?
UnaBubba, Mar 18 2021

       //We cannot have what the Dems engineered in 2020//   

       Is it possible, [tc], that you are overestimating the engineering skills of the Democratic Party?
pertinax, Mar 18 2021

       //regular people whose votes were stolen//   

       If those people were who they appeared to be, [xandram] then why do you suppose that their testimony, and other testimony like it, was rejected by not just one but many courts, with many different judges, including Republican-appounted judges?   

       This is not a rhetorical question: I am genuinely curious about what you think happened.
pertinax, Mar 18 2021

       //As some one who has lived in a dictatorship, a parliamentary democracy, and in the US//   

       I do love the way the US gets it's own category there, neither a dictatorship, nor exactly a democracy, apparently :))
Skewed, Mar 18 2021

       We don't functionally have a democracy. We have a democrazy.   

       We cannot have cities where people stand in line for 9 hours to vote without so much as a lousy drink of water or a restroom. This is the asinine misery that Georgia Republicans have put in place.   

       We cannot have a functioning democracy when California Republicunts defy a court order to quit putting up decoy fake drop boxes. William F. Buckley would be proud. They should be wearing orange and chiseling rocks for such fuckery.   

       We can't have a Senate where Senators who represent a smaller population than many US counties get to determine the future of our policies. Had the framers saw exactly how disparaged the power tilt has become, they would've freaked out. These are the same people who haggled to death over how much power noncitizen slaves should be counted as bonus for slave states.   

       Republicans have only won the popular Presidential vote once since 1992. Do you know why we have the Electoral College? Here's James Madison's 'diplomatic' description.   

       "There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections."   

       It's a slavery relic. Plain and simple.   

       As a result, we have 3 Supreme Court judges who were rushed into power by a President who lost the popular vote and confirmed by Senators who represent much less than half of the population of the country.   

       Tell me that's a functional democracy. Go on. Sell me a bridge while you're at it.
RayfordSteele, Mar 18 2021

       //William F. Buckley would be proud//   

       This is probably a little unfair to Buckley, of whom it has been said that he policed the right wing of the GOP to keep out the klansmen and Birchers.
pertinax, Mar 18 2021

       //Go on. Sell me a bridge while you're at it//   

       Well as it happens I do know this Nigerian prince hoping to divest himself of some properties in London, purely for tax reasons of course, he might have something in his portfolio you'd like [shuffles through papers] ah here we are, nice little bridge, one careful owner, I can put you in touch if you'd like?
Skewed, Mar 18 2021

       //This is probably a little unfair to Buckley,//   

       The only thing larger than Buckley's bank account was his ego. Even after he switched sides from his 1957 paper to a more liberal position on racial injustice, he never lost his sense of self- righteousness or privelege as a "first among equals."   

       // of whom it has been said that he policed the right wing of the GOP to keep out the klansmen and Birchers.//   

       He seems to have had let his guard down in the 60's.
RayfordSteele, Mar 18 2021

       Ray, you have not lived in a parliamentarian system, particularly a closely divided one, and I have. It's convenient to label the electoral college as you have, but the reality is this -- the limitations that the US puts on majority rule are there to HELP you -- you will quickly discover this if you are ever in the parliamentary minority -- as the 6-3 Supreme Court amply illustrates. Let's not even talk about swinging taxation systems and rule framework every couple of years. This is why European economies cannot get out of their own way -- and they will not.   

       The vote has to be trusted by everyone. I'm not for restricting how and where people vote -- I'm not against registering everywhere and anywhere, I'm fine if it takes 2 weeks to vote. I'm fine if you can vote by phone with a pin that you got by registering (though again hard to prove it's secret). I'm fine if you vote online with a pin (again hard to prove it's secret)   

       But I'm against non-secret ballots that cannot be proven to be done without influence, or by an alive, registered voter at scale. It's not too much to ask for.   

       The US has a well established way to get to an effective popular vote -- have all states, one by one, adopt representative apportionment of electors. I have nothing against that, I wish my vote would count -- as I live in NJ it doesn't   

       //There is no problem getting an ID, unless you are black. There is no problem registering to vote, unless you are black.//   

       so here is a solution... see attached
theircompetitor, Mar 18 2021

       By my calculation the majority hasn't ruled that much at all since 1999. It's not "limitations on majority rule." It's minority rule.   

       Prove me wrong.
RayfordSteele, Mar 18 2021

       oh boy did they waste those separation of powers classes on you folks. Make me sad...
theircompetitor, Mar 18 2021

       So let's get rid of the electoral college and let New York and California rule the lowly proles in the between states. They're all racist anyway, at least that's what I heard.   

       But why stop at letting two states run the entire country? Why not have vote value allocation by net worth? There's an idea. So if I drive an ambulance for instance, and make $50,000 a year, and some Wall Street guy makes $5,000,000 a year, his vote is worth 100 times what the paramedic guy's is.   

       Oh wait, we already have that with a lobbiest based power allocation system. Never mind.   

       Maybe we need a distraction from that by talking about nothing but race so the powerful ruling class elites don't have to worry about that lowly middle class asking questions and possibly taking a small percentage of their wealth and total control over absolutely everything. You question their power? Hmm, that's just what a RACIST would say!   

       I grew up in a black community and when I moved out of the ghetto (not all black communities are ghettos, but mine was) I found that the white people who called "RACIST!" the most were those that were most wanting to show just how NOT racist they were. After I got to know them I found out there was a reason for that. I'll let you figure that one out.   

       It's like if a guy is always talking about gays and how he hates them. I just say "Boy, you sure think about homosexuality a lot for some reason.".   

       If the elite rich really cared about the problems of the black community (they don't) they'd talk to somebody like me who actually lived there. (they won't) I could tell them which people thrived (by getting the fuck out) and which languished by doing as they were told by the elite leftists and waiting for that revolution that's "Coming any day now, just sit tight and do what you're told!" Some of the people I grew up with made it out, the rest are still there waiting for Big Brother to set everything right. The ones that are still alive that is.   

       I know too many successful black people who got that way by not buying this racist, elitist, white man's bullshit about living in a country where you can't succeed if you're skin is a certain tone so you might as well not even try so just trust (and vote for) them and they'll fix everything. They DID succeed by doing things like having a strong family, educating themselves, establishing a powerful work ethic and staying away from drugs and other modern slavery shackles. You know, the tools ALL people use to succeed. When the rich, powerful white man tells you a rapper like Snoop Dog, wacked out of his mind on weed using a vocabulary of about 50 words is "Cool and what you young blacks should strive to be." Might want to consider they might not have your best interest at heart.   

       But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the left and this new administration will eliminate poverty, plague and bad weather. If that happens I'll say "Well, how about that? Guess I was wrong." and everybody will live happily ever after.
doctorremulac3, Mar 18 2021

       //the thing that makes the US unique//   

       There is an alternative explanation. When a relatively small population of settlers have available to them the natural resources of an entire continent, they prosper. As the continent gradually fills up with other people wanting a piece of the action, conditions become more challenging, and political solutions become more necessary. And if you take the view, "We're special, we don't need political solutions", then you'll continue to have political problems.   

       Australia, Canada and New Zealand are prosperous for the same underlying reason that the US is prosperous, and have for some time been scoring higher on international comparisons of livability, and I suggest that this may in part be because their political systems have been producing better outcomes in recent years.   

       Separation of powers is important, of course, but in the American context, it always reminds me of an extraordinarily cynical advertisement I saw in an American news magazine in the 1990s. It had been placed by a lobbying company, and it referenced the separation of powers. It said something like "we can turn the three branches of government into three channels for advancing the interests of your business". And of course, once that has been done, they are no longer separate.
pertinax, Mar 18 2021

       Poverty, at least temporarily, has been reduced by a gobsmacked huge bunch with the stroke of a pen.
RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2021

       It will come back in a couple of months, and we don't have many pens left.
Voice, Mar 19 2021

       ...Blah blah blah neverending bootstraps preaching during fiscal policy discussions blah blah blah...
RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2021

       [pert] I am not one for political arguments, I am not a Democrat nor Republican, but I saw things that I know were not right. You asked the question what I think happened and i’m sure no one really cares what I think happened but I think why those testimonies were rejected because everything was engineered by unlawful means to achieve a predicted outcome. yes, it was fixed. If you don’t believe that in this world stuff like this happens, it happens with professional football games, and any other huge things where money and power are involved, Then that is completely naïve.
xandram, Mar 19 2021

       I've spent a good amount of time reviewing the cases myself, more than I've cared to, and no, those testimonies were rejected because they were either a: quite mad, b: unaware of the tallying process, c: demonstrably false, or d: inadmissible heresay.
RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2021

       I think you mean hearsay, [Ray], rather than heresy. But I take your point.
pertinax, Mar 20 2021

       Thank you for the linked article, [dr3]. It makes a strong case against the elimination of paper ballots and for hand counting. But, IIRC, the disputed totals in the present case used physical, paper ballots, and were in some cases recounted by hand. So the problem we're looking at here is a different kind of problem.
pertinax, Mar 20 2021

       //i’m sure no one really cares what I think//   

       If I hadn't cared, [xandram], then I wouldn't have asked.
pertinax, Mar 20 2021

       Interesting article, dr. A bit old, though. I'm not sure how much has been addressed by the voting systems companies since. From part 11.   

       "The statistically anomalous shifting of votes to the conservative right has become so pervasive in post- HAVA America that it now has a name of its own. Experts call it the “red shift.”   

       The Election Defense Alliance (EDA) is a nonprofit organization specializing in election forensics—a kind of dusting for the fingerprints of electronic theft. It is joined in this work by a coalition of independent statisticians, who have compared decades of computer-vote results to exit polls, tracking polls, and hand counts. Their findings show that when disparities occur, they benefit Republicans and right-wing issues far beyond the bounds of probability."
RayfordSteele, Mar 20 2021

       Well my main point of the link was to highlight the hypocrisy of this Democrat outrage at people questioning the validity of an election when they do the same thing when they lose.   

       That being said, I don't understand why it's not a bipartisan issue to create a system both sides actually trust in EVERY election, not just the ones where their side wins. We had people dip their thumbs in blue ink that was very hard to remove when we brought "democracy" sorry, democracy to Iraq as a way to insure they only voted once. I thought that was pretty clever. Might not work here but sometimes simple can be good.   

       If I won an election I'd be the first one working to make sure the integrity of the process was beyond reproach and I wouldn't do it by just insulting critics. If a process I create isn't clearly incorruptible, and demonstrably so, that's my fault. Just saying "You're stupid! The election's perfect!" didn't work for me when the Democrats were saying elections were corrupt on the many occasions that they cried foul, (the link I posted shows just a taste of that forgotten history) and it doesn't work for me now that Republicans are repeating those same allegations.   

       Rules about how we stage elections ARE being changed, that's not debatable. To say those changes can't be discussed and debated is ridiculous.   

       Although I know this isn't really about finding processes to effectively get things done, it's just about hating each other, which is fine, I'm certainly not above that. Carry on.
doctorremulac3, Mar 20 2021

       Ah yes. The 2004 left-wing storming of the capitol building. I remember it well, taking place during the same month as the tidal wave that hit Indiana, the Death Valley blizzard, and that LGBTQ Asian American Billy Graham Crusade shooter who yelled JOHN KERRY IS PRESIDENT! before taking his own life.   

       Sorry but I'm tired of the bullshit both-sides-ism being played on heavy rotation now.   

       I, for one, would settle for a simple inked digit, if the ink is unremovable by any sort of available cleaner. A bit pricey but maybe silver nitrate?
RayfordSteele, Mar 20 2021

       //If a process I create isn't clearly incorruptible//   

       Too much to aspire to, no system is incorruptible, but some are less easy to disguise the corruption of the system & make said corruption easier to see & trace so you can correct it, those are the ones we should use.   

       Which is why physical voting at the ballot box is better than postal or (gods forbid) electronic to my eye & always will be.
Skewed, Mar 20 2021

       Not sure what you're ranting about Ray, I guess belonging to a group gives people comfort and if somebody questions any aspect of the divinity of that group the rage begins.   

       Thank god I don't get my sense of belonging from blind adherence to any group. I know that makes me the enemy to groupies, but I really could not care less.   

       Sk, at this point, I'm in total agreement with you. In person, voter ID verified in person voting works fine. The vast majority of the people can do it with exceptions made for the very few people who can't get to a polling center. We've done this for years.   

       The racist idea that certain races are too stupid to get an ID card is ludicrous. People of all races are fully capable of all sorts of things the elites say they can't do. Get a driver's license, ID card, drive a car, pay bills, pay taxes. I heard it called "The soft racism of low expectations" and I think that's a pretty apt description. If certain groups are having issues, fine, address those issues and solve the damn problem. People need voter IDs, get them to them, whatever it takes.   

       If we can't do that incredibly important job WE'RE the ones who are too stupid to run a democracy.   

       And Ray, as a peace offering, thank you for considering the thumb dye thing. I'm not sure why that wouldn't' work here, I just get a feeling people would be outraged by it, don't know why.   

       I'd be kind of proud to display my blue thumb to show I did my part. I also know from a video I saw of a bunch of assholes dumping blue dye on a team mate in the shower that this stuff doesn't come off easily. The poor guy had to go the the airport with a blue face.
doctorremulac3, Mar 20 2021

       //idea that certain races are too stupid to get an ID card is ludicrous//   

       That's not it.   

       & I think those responsible for mistranslating what it is into that awful little soundbite (ignorant media twats, shock jocks & self serving lying race baiting politicians & political activists pedalling hate for personal gain) should be taken out & summarily shot.   

       Not those who innocently or accidentally repeat & perpetuate it of course, just the ones that had a hand in creating the lie, the rest can be let off with a stern talking to & a flogging.   

       [Crackling intercom]   

       "Will Doctorremulac please report to the corrections department"   


       "Your beating has been scheduled for five, don't be late I've a dinner date at six"   

       What it is, is that some socio-economic groups simply can't afford the ID that might be required for voting.   

       Driving licences aren't free, especially factoring in driving lessons. Passport fees in the UK cost the equivalent of three or more pairs of cheap shoes.   

       So for someone on a low income living hand to mouth who may actually have to go without a bit to save out of their weekly food budget over a period of weeks for a new pair of shoes getting appropriate ID can be an unaffordable expense. That is the issue, not their stupidity but the result of too many economic fuck ups by far too many governments for far too long.   


       OK so yes it is due to stupidity, just not theirs, the politicians & the ill-educated ignorant fucks calling themselves economists the politicians have been listening to all that time.   

       The answer of course is as you've said, require locale authorities to provide free ID as needed.   

       Like locale authorities did in the UK when the age on the sale of tobacco laws changed.   

       The answer is definitely NOT 'So don't ask for ID' because we should ask for ID for voting.
Skewed, Mar 20 2021

       // Driving licences aren't free, especially factoring in driving lessons.//   

       Most states offer an ID equivalent to a driver's license for a small fee. Just eliminate that fee, and also the fees charged for other proof of identity.   

       The idea that black people can't get ID's is preposterous but it will at least eliminate that excuse not to require IDs to vote.   

       As a side benefit it will help educate the public about cryptography to a small extent. Use a strong password/passphrase or anyone can see how you voted.   

       I say we use one of the several numbers already unique to each citizen, hash it with a password made when they vote, and publish the hashes. It will prevent multiple voting, make it much easier to detect people voting under others names, and allow people to verify their own vote.
Voice, Mar 20 2021

       //I think those responsible for mistranslating //should be taken out & summarily shot.//"Will Doctorremulac please report to the corrections department" [Crackle] "Your beating has been scheduled for five, don't be late I've a dinner date at six"//   

       So you're fantasizing about having a Nazi style executions and torture camps for people you disagree with? I'm guessing you wouldn't be brave enough to say that to my face, but if you're fantasizing about murder and torture you might want to get some help. Seriously.
doctorremulac3, Mar 20 2021

       Take it easy, I'm sure he'll give you a minute between blows.
Voice, Mar 20 2021

       It's the time isn't it, you don't like the time, clashes with another appointment or something does it? OK we can fix that, I can come back after dinner & fit you in at eight, how's that?
Skewed, Mar 20 2021

       //Take it easy, I'm sure he'll give you a minute between blows.//   

       He'd be taking a lot more than a minute between blows because after the first one he'd be... eh, I won't go there.   

       Take a chill pill S, talking about violence against anybody on this forum is way out of line. Disagree, call names, fine, but when you start getting into torture and murder fantasies that's a problem.   

       If that really is a scenario with you please do get help.
doctorremulac3, Mar 20 2021

       Simple skin-colored latex gloves or magician's thumb cap could defeat the blue ink pretty easily if the person applying isn't paying attention.   

       This isn't about racism. It's about access and privacy.
RayfordSteele, Mar 20 2021

       Ray, THANK YOU for bringing this back to the topic.   

       Yea, maybe. I was sort of just throwing that out there, but might thumb dye work with us if the pollsters were trained to carefully inspect thumbs for that sort of thing? Dunno, maybe, but it does seem kind of weird to use such a low tech solution in this high tech age.   

       I agree that access issues have to be addressed so let's make that the goal. I think it can be done, I don't see an insurmountable issue there and it's vitally important. One thing everybody agrees on is everybody has to be able to vote or we don't have a democracy and nobody wants that.   

       I hope anyway.
doctorremulac3, Mar 20 2021

       I think the thumb dye's a good idea, there's ways around every precaution if the one's applying it aren't paying attention, doesn't mean it wouldn't help, simple, cheap, & barring the polling officer being hopelessly short sighted with attention deficit issues & having forgotten to take his glasses with him that morning likely to be pretty effective really .. on average.
Skewed, Mar 20 2021

       [pertinax] i’m sorry, i didn’t mean you but the general public. i didn’t really want to engage in this discussion because technically no one really knows what happened, but something did happen. please accept my apology. we only get bits of info, not really knowing if it is correct to begin with. i certainly don’t trust any of them. politicians, media, or anyone else spouting off that they know...   

       I have posted a link that shows how the media lies. As far as the people I saw saying that their votes were stolen, they look very normal and sane. If someone wants to believe they were deranged then they are also believing everything the spin doctors say.
xandram, Mar 21 2021

       This is supposed to be news?   

       Follow Marc Elias. He's the lawyer involved in the cases.
RayfordSteele, Mar 21 2021

       Thank you for directing me to Marc Elias, [Ray]. However, according to the linked article, he seems to have been instrumental in loosening the rules on campaign finance, and thereby making the election process even more plutocratic - so are you sure he's a good guy?
pertinax, Mar 21 2021

       He's effective as a lawyer in making his cases. That would make him as good as his clients' interests. I would agree that the loosening of campaign finance is a bad thing. But his Twitter feed of case documents has certainly been interesting. I should also say that some of those people believe what they do but are simply mistaken in their interpretation of events.
RayfordSteele, Mar 22 2021


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