Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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May you live in interesting tights

Punishment for male shoplifters
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This afternoon I was wearing a pair of really boring beige tights which I hid under a pair of leggings. It occurred to me that the likes of Marks and Sparks, who sell really boring underwear, probably also have a lot of it nicked. Those shoplifters or the people whom they sell them on to could be punished, not by penal servitude but by being forced to wear interesting underwear in public, particularly interesting tights, because whereas I am perfectly happy here in my low-cut scarlet dress, polka dot skirt and glossy black leggings, I am probably a bit unusual in that respect for a bloke and that these may not be popular sartorial decisions for most of the male population to go out in public in. So, as far as male shoplifters are concerned, the retailer should be allowed to come round their place, remove all their jeans, trackie bottoms, Y- fronts, trousers etc., and replace them with the most ridiculous possible tights, frillly knickers and so on, force them to photograph themselves in a special booth at the police station every day as documentary evidence that they're wearing the requisite clobber and ban them from buying anything which isn't embarrassing to them through some sort of tagging system.

Obviously it wouldn't work for perverts like I used to be or for women, but it's a start.

This idea is basically just here for pun purposes.

nineteenthly, Dec 15 2013

American law-type dude makes inmates wear pink underwear http://www.azcentra...derwear-appeal.html
"[the court] said dressing inmates in pink underwear ... appeared to be punishment without legal justification and noted that it’s fair to infer that the selection of pink as the underwear color was meant to symbolize the loss of prisoners’ masculinity." [calum, Dec 16 2013]

Not very impressive at that point http://www.youtube....watch?v=N8DMeSAG-Ds
This is what I mean. Quite small at this juncture, not sure about now. [nineteenthly, Dec 20 2013]

(?) Something Noticeable Like This http://www.uktights...net-footless-tights
This is the kind of thing you need. Bright pink so you can see them across the street :) No use having something too subtle. [uktights, Mar 26 2014]


       // perverts like I used to be //   

       The employment of the past tense in this context does not seem entirely appropriate ...
8th of 7, Dec 15 2013

       //I am probably a bit unusual in that respect for a bloke//   

       I think this statement sits comfortably on the sofa of life, alongside "the Pacific is quite moist" and "special equipment may be needed in order to lift Venezuela".
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 15 2013

       Seriously, it's completely evaporated although I understand your scepticism. [MB], the real question is now whether the word "bloke" still applies. anyway, what I really want to know is, is the "interesting times" thing a myth?
nineteenthly, Dec 15 2013

       The word "bloke" is rather like Béarnaise sauce - it can be applied to almost anything, but is not always appropriate.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 15 2013

       Even still, of those who are delicious with it, few would be happy in pink and lime green stripy tights, for instance, and even fewer would find the view pleasing.
nineteenthly, Dec 15 2013

       //in my low-cut scarlet dress, polka dot skirt//   

       Why would you wear a dress and a skirt at the same time?
ytk, Dec 15 2013

       Because the skirt on the dress is too short. I do that a lot and I presume it's normal. The top bit of the dress looks nice but it's cold, so I layer. Actually, is that normal? I've been presuming it is but maybe not.
nineteenthly, Dec 16 2013

       Yeah, it happens. Guys are bigger than girls, so often the dress is just far too short....best to get separates.   

       And ditch those tights, it's pretty unhygienic, especially in summer.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 16 2013

       The tights have a practical purpose which would probably be satisfied otherwise only by a leotard.
nineteenthly, Dec 16 2013

       [nineteenthly] makes a point with //wouldn't work for perverts like I used to be or for women// as women are rarely seen as perverts. If he ever needs to dodge the pervert bullet, I'd suggest claiming to be a transgendered woman. That defence automatically makes your opponents fascists, similar to my claim to schizophrenia.
rcarty, Dec 16 2013

       You say that as if being a pervert is a bad thing.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 16 2013

       A pervert is just an unsexy person acting sexy.
rcarty, Dec 16 2013

       //The tights have a practical purpose which would probably be satisfied otherwise only by a leotard   

       Thinking more on it, the more elegant solution would be one of them foundation garments which ladies with small hips and bums wear, it has quite a wedge of padding and would tend to level things out.   

       Enough of this prosaic advice...back to superconducting cheese, with extra monkeys.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 16 2013

       I'm not really convinced that skirts or dresses are a wise option even for women. Given the complexities that you, [19thly], seem to be experiencing, not to mention the need for tights for some additional and unspecified porpoise, would you not be better off modelling your tendencies on women who wear jeans? Simpler all round, shirley?   

       To put it another way, if I were going to model myself on a woman, I'd probably pick the sort of woman who dresses pretty much the way I already do. Much less expensive, wardrobially speaking.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 16 2013

       //skirts or dresses are a wise option even for women.   

       I have to agree, given the sheer number of "beware of upskirting" posters on the escalators in Akihabara station. I'd recommend wearing trousers, and at least one pair of bicycle clips, just to be on the safe side.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 16 2013

       This idea is basically just here for pun purposes. [-]
Voice, Dec 17 2013

       I'll modify that then: this idea is inspired by a pun.   

       There can be great honour in being a pervert. In my case it meant that I never once in my entire life objectified another person sexually, and I consider that to be very positive. The fact that my unusual sexual desires have now evaporated is rather worrying in some ways for that reason and I'm concerned about fancying people. It is quite a surreal and weirdly "quiet" experience to find that wearing all this stuff is entirely unerotic. It never would have been for me but other things would and I admit that I used to be suspicious of my motives. Apparently, and startlingly, those suspicions were unfounded.   

       Transgendered woman? Well, that's how many people seem to see me but since I see gender as determined by how others have seen one in one's formative years, there is no such category for me and even if I had a fully functional female reproductive system I would still be male. This has led to rather vexing discussions with [grayure].   

       Regarding the stereotypical gear, you have to remember that I've been restraining myself from wearing what seems to me to be perfectly normal clothing because of the reactions of others for 46 years, and am now swinging back the other way. Also, never got on with jeans. It's also amazingly quick getting dressed if you wear certain dresses and that is very convenient.   

       So: regarding the question of offenders, it occurs to me to wonder how large the overlap is between those who are wont remove items from shops without paying for them and those in the surprisingly tiny category of people who are wont to take the piss out of me. It may be rather small but for the intersection, to me there seems to be an element of poetic justice.   

       "All I did was shoplift a lipstick".
nineteenthly, Dec 17 2013

       k.... well... you've been a "bloke", to me and I assume everybody else on the other end of your pixels, for over half a decade, longer for others... I don't feel the need to do any mental reorganization.   

       The bit that's missing from the idea, even though it seems to be implied in the annos, is how the punishment is supposed to fit the crime. Surely that would be only really appropriate to cases where the crime was a result of the accused putting on an alpha-male show, and remaining unrepentant about it or, putting it a bit more precisely, an asshole pretending to be a prick... like a bike rider cutting off a pedestrian while riding on the sidewalk. Or a slob (a stereotypical male attribute) tossing his garbage onto your property.   

       Other than that it's pretty much a slap in the face to non-criminal women, no ? or even men whose sartorial preferences tend towards the "dandy" end of the scale. [-]   

       Have you tried male clothing with generic Western-bias female attributes ? Kilts, robes, or pretty well anything from the '70s. Or the rock'n'roll wardrobing in general.
FlyingToaster, Dec 17 2013

       There's no doubt that this is a mid-life crisis, but an unusual one. Trying to avoid fuelling my self-absorption but I've always wished I'd been born female and as life goes on, just as other men might start counting down to their deaths and wondering how much they can really achieve, so I count down to my own and gloomily contemplate the fact that I'm still male. I would also say that I think another factor may be endocrine - steady decline of androgens making the issue feel more pronounced. Don't ask me how that works. But, to contemplate my navel rather less, I'm now thinking about the possibility of every life stage thing, e.g. puberty, being associated with significant hormonal changes. Probably medical nurbalism all over again.
nineteenthly, Dec 17 2013

       I still recommend a good regimen of weight training. It'll get your mind off of things, which is what I suspect more than a few bakers need from time to time.
RayfordSteele, Dec 17 2013

       //steady decline of androgens making the issue feel more pronounced. Don't ask me how that works.   

       Type 2 transgender...comes on in middle age as the testosterone level goes down, a common form.   

       The downside is hormones won't do anything (probably) this late in the day, on the other hand you missed on 30 odd years of pmt. For the record, I am transgender, but I find halfbakery a lot more interesting.   

       Enough of my tedious personal life, bring on the superconducting cheese, with ukelele playing baboons.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 17 2013

       Everyone knows that cheese makes for an excellent insulator, or insulation, or helps you build insulation, or something...
RayfordSteele, Dec 18 2013

       Thanks, [not]. I've been aware of being GID since I was seven though. Also, I'm definitely getting results with what I'm doing, even now.
nineteenthly, Dec 18 2013

       Uso! (the more polite meaning therof)
not_morrison_rm, Dec 18 2013

       I have similar issues to [19thly]. In my case, I have long thought that I am a thin, attractive person born in the body of an overweight, unattractive one. It's hell. If I didn't have alcohol, antidepressants and alcohol to fall back on, I don't know where I'd be. Oh and alcohol.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 18 2013

       //I am a thin, attractive person born in the body of an overweight, unattractive one//   

       Well, to be fair, it really is sorta true that all babies look like Winston Churchill.
ytk, Dec 18 2013

       However, the midwife who delivered Winston Churchill said that he looked "rather like Emily Bronte".
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 18 2013

       No no, you misheard. She said a brontosaurus.
RayfordSteele, Dec 19 2013

       "Uso"? I can only assure you that it's true but without posting NSFW pictures which I would in any case feel rather reticent about, I can't really confirm it and you can choose to trust me or not and I can choose to let go of how I feel about your opinion.   

       There is no sense in which I am a woman trapped in a male body because I will always be male, even if I had a fully functional reproductive system with a uterus and ovaries. This is because gender is determined by how others have perceived one in the past rather than how one is perceived now or how one understands oneself. Rather, I am an individual to whom being male is an incurable but manageable physical illness. It's not an illness for most people but it is to me, and it's more a physical illness than a mental health problem although it's also a mental health problem. I choose not to impose this interpretation of my situation upon others as I feel it may have depressive elements but it probably needs to stay there so as not to make other people unhappy.
nineteenthly, Dec 19 2013

       I uso-ed only on the getting results at a relatively late in life..   

       //but without posting NSFW pictures   

       Post away, I'm easy. NSFW? I prefer JPG myself.   

       Almost worth posting mine, but Jutta would have to burn the hard disk afterwards.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 19 2013

       Well there you go, not a pretty sight are they? Particularly when there's still chest hair. OK, I'll put something together. It really is a bit of a downer that I didn't do it before but it is also totally brilliant having children.   

       Having said all this, I am still aware that there was an idea in here somewhere before this turned into a showcase for my self-indulgence, based on a pun though it was. OK, so to address you all in turn, yes there are plenty of sexually nonconformist women, and I have come across quite a few in certain online fora. The versions of female sexuality claimed by many seem to be refuted in at least a few cases and I clearly did get it wrong, as some of them have pointed out.   

       Right now I'm doing fine with the tights but then the relevant organs are thankfully not what they were and to some extent - gach, never mind, more self-indulgence.   

       [FT], I agree it needs refinement. I shouldn't and in fact no longer see the male of the species as a huge mass of negativity and that's gradually filtering through as the realisation that that was my own self-loathing being projected onto others makes itself felt. Not all men are bastards, of course. OK, so maybe instead of the shoplifting per se, a response to particular kinds of stereotypical male misdemeanours. The problem of demonizing the likes of myself persists there unless - well, how about a "branding" approach of printing the crime whereof one is found guilty on the garments themselves? Still feels quite vindictive of course.   

       Oh, and Churchill? I hear the babies who look unlike him look like ET, so maybe he looked like that.   

       Incidentally, sheesh, something has nicked my mojo on here this year and I'm pretty sure it's the change, for me personally. Maybe it's gone for good and I'll start doing something different like actually making a living or something. Not suggesting that would happen to anyone else though.   

       Weight training is more [grayure]'s forte as she is way more muscle bound than I and I like it that way: big hunky woman, love of my life, hmmm!
nineteenthly, Dec 19 2013

       This is all very interesting to me, as my best friend in college was TG and it's bringing up all manner of things I haven't thought about in years, old knowledge being scraped across a new mind.
Alterother, Dec 19 2013

       It's not the muscle-bound-ness, it's the hormonal adjustment, confidence, and sense of self-ease that comes with the workout that is worth its weight in cast iron weights.
RayfordSteele, Dec 19 2013

       //Well there you go, not a pretty sight are they?   

       Erm....I can't see anything...try emailing me on mnkytown@yahoo.com.   

       If you're really unlucky I'll drop you my youtube channel name.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 19 2013

       No, I haven't posted them yet. You can see earlier and possibly smaller versions at the YouTube link I'm about to post.
nineteenthly, Dec 20 2013

       It is indeed the confidence and emotional adjustment I've achieved, [Rayford].
nineteenthly, Dec 20 2013

       Laser, I think a spot of laser hair removal might be an idea, try and find a clinic with a proper laser, those Epilight things just don`t do the trick IMHO.   

       Right. This is just for nineteenthly. My youtube handle is shimotsumaMG. I really, really recommend not looking me up if transgender stuff is not your cup of tea. Seriousna.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 20 2013

       Thanks, I'll look you up now. Yeah, chest hair and boobs not a good combination I think. I need laser but can't afford it.
nineteenthly, Dec 21 2013

       As an afterthought, laser don't work too well on light-coloured hair, only on dark.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 21 2013

       I think it's the other way around.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 21 2013

       The thing is, I think, skin is translucent so you can see the roots even if you're perfectly clean-shaven, particularly if you have dark hair. Does it actually destroy the follicle? Right now I'm thinking waxing, sugaring or facial epilator due to the stress this is causing [grayure]. Really didn't anticipate that.
nineteenthly, Dec 26 2013

       //I think it's the other way around.   

       Errr....actually no, great on dark hair, lousy on fair, as not so much absorption of the energy from the laser. Also naff for dark-skinned or suntanned folk as it just burns the skin.   

       //skin is translucent so you can see the roots even if you're perfectly clean-shaven,   

       Yep, like on my face, back in the day. That's how laser works, the light penetrates the skin and zaps the follicles.   

       //waxing, sugaring or facial epilator   

       Are we talking face or chest? None of those are permanent solutions..and waxing is flippin' painful in my experience*, short term and painful. Laser is not painful and long term, so my money went on laser.   

       The bad news is face needs to lasered every month for say, 9 months, so we are talking big money. Chest hair grows more slowly (from memory) so it only needs to get done every two months (from memory) ..so more costly, but over a longer period.   

       QED shave the face, laser the chest.   

       Also laser is cheaper elsewhere in the EU, one really good one was in Budapest, the lady is used to folk like us and does a phenomenally good job. Easyjet to Budapest is cheap, so make it a weekend break and go eat tiramisu**.   

       Dammit, I should be charging for this   

       * I paid good money to the waxer to stop doing the waxing, money very well spent IMHO.   

       ** But god's sake, don't try the cappuchino over there, it's crap.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 26 2013

       Aha! Lasers! Now we can start taking this idea seriously.
DrBob, Dec 26 2013

       Well, if it's a question of removing facial hair and the like from male offenders, maybe, but that's a bit permanent and expensive for the government. Tights are cheaper than laser treatment.   

       It's a compromise, [not]. Whereas I could do that, my current concerns are making it too "real" for the other half because whereas she has always known, being confronted with the reality of the situation is difficult. Ergo, shaving and waxing rather than irreversible stuff. Painful but necessary, at least as a temporary compromise. Although I'm not convinced that ultimately laser would be cheaper than shaving since I'm getting through three months (allegedly) of razor blades per week right now.
nineteenthly, Dec 26 2013

       //Although I'm not convinced that ultimately laser would be cheaper than shaving since I'm getting through three months (allegedly) of razor blades per week right now.   

       Well, it's the permanency that is the attraction. Shaving is fine, if a little tedious..me I go to the store and buy the cheapest hair conditioner, that's a cheap substitute for shaving gel on body hair. Epilator and waxing doesn't seem a good solution as you need to let the hairs grow quite long first, which doesn't seem that aesthetic.   

       Anyway, it's your body, not mine, so do what's best for you.   

       //Tights are cheaper than laser treatment.   

       I see, you want the inmates to wear the tights on their heads, to hide the stubble?
not_morrison_rm, Dec 26 2013

       It's kind of like an eating disorder, what's in the mirror and the self-image don't match. It's a motivation to do things, so there is some (borderline)adventure in my life.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 27 2013

       Probably neither, as it's not possible to see yourself as others see you.   

       I'm always surprised by people if they tell me what they thought of me, on first meeting, seems to be some random impressions.   

       //win a Olympic track medal.... I just have to accept that it's not going to happen.   

       Should have given a bigger bribe to the judges, or go talk to whatever that cyclist was called who did all the blood doping. NB nmr co free apostrophisation service last Friday of the month, at your service.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 27 2013

       It's quite notable that people really don't get it unless they have it, something I didn't notice until recently. No matter how intimately someone knows me, they don't understand, but complete strangers who happen to be gender dysphoric, including female-assigned people, usually or always empathise immediately with various experiences. I agree with the eating disorder point totally, and in fact I have basically that exact experience with my chest - I can't tell if I have breasts or not in the same way as I used not to be able to notice that my acne had cleared up in my early twenties.   

       [Bigsleep], I would say two things about it which might make sense. Firstly, there are people with brain injuries who cannot accept that one of their limbs is part of their body or that certain family members are not impostors. Broader than this are the experience of fetishism and phobias. I had two paraphilias which made no sense to anyone else, plus a button phobia. All three have now gone. When I had those, it would have seemed self-evident to me that the first two were turn ons and the third was terrifying. Now I look back on them with bafflement, hence my status as an ex-pervert.   

       Secondly, absurd though it seems, it's probably quite easy to reach empathy if you simply imagine you have a body of the wrong gender. For instance, I feel ridiculously and depressingly hairy, and it feels like a disfigurement. I don't like seeing or feeling any stubble whatsoever because it reminds me I have a body which is rebelling against my will relentlessly and insisting on being the wrong gender. I can and have distracted myself from it, but it's always there.
nineteenthly, Dec 27 2013

       //Isn't that a completely separate issue?   

       Er, no. More people die as a result of other's impressions, (ie this person is black, Jewish, moslem, KKK or geography teacher so I can refuse to give them a job/abuse/hurt/kill them) than suffer harm from their own self-image. At a wild guess.   

       Also it's some kind of exploration of life from a different perspective. I've been to lots of other countries, but is it actually possible for me to see life from a female perspective? Are my new experiences valid? Am I just Dr Livingstone for a different kind of exploration.   

       Experiences up until this point involve mobs with pitchforks and burning torches, and not having buy my own drinks, so the jury is out.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 27 2013

       //button phobia// r u left-handed ?
FlyingToaster, Dec 27 2013

       Which one is my alter-ego? Having two lives is a bit boring and it'd easier to just have the one. I sorted my name change and passport, so legally I am just the one person. Joining a slightly looked down on minority does have career ramifications.   

       //I was interested to here how you intellectually dissect the problem   

       Oh blimey, we could be here all night. What is a male or female personality? Can I know that what I would think of female personality is accurate or not? In reality, it's more of a feeling, or a series of feelings that something just isn't quite right. It can be big things, or little things, like in 2003 I found I could see women's makeup, which is really not a guy trait, trust me on that one.   

       Anyway, I'm English and not so very comfortable in baring what passes for my soul. So, just believe me, it's very different to being "a man".   

       So, before we have to rename to newhalf-bakery (forgive my local slang) I am going to shut up. Anybody needs some advice on this, sure, fine, otherwise - no.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 27 2013

       I think I see your point, [FT], and the answer is that I thought I was right-handed until recently when I realised that in fact I'm ambidextrous or left-handed (cross-dominant?) in everything except writing, in which I'm extremely right-handed.   

       The point about externality is important. My view is that gender is externally and historically defined, i.e. you are female if you have been thought of as female by most of the people with whom you have come into contact in your formative years and male with the appropriate terms replaced. It's neither a biological nor a psychological category. I realise this is different than the way most other people think of it, but as usual when I think something weird, it accords with the groupthink of analytical philosophy. I also have a lot of emotional investment in that belief, and if something happens to dislodge it, basically all hell will break loose in my personal life, so I'm deliberately trying to avoid examining it, which is very difficult. If I come to the conclusion instead that gender is psychologically defined, or that it's fluid, at least for myself if not others, I will conclude that I'm female and act accordingly. That decision will lead to divorce, so I'm not going there.
nineteenthly, Dec 27 2013


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