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The Great Reversal of Zed

laterally invert the letter Z
  (+2, -6)
(+2, -6)
  [vote for,
against]

Putin uses the letter Z as his equivalent of Hitler's swastika, but unlike the swastika, the letter Z is in common use by most people, who are not busy trying to exterminate an entire country. This means it's hard to avoid using it, but there is a way.

I propose turning all letter "zeds" to face the other way. This would mean that the only use of them facing the opposite to this would be to identify the Putin's new Nazi war insignia.

It would take time for people to get used The Great Reversal of Zed but eventually, just as with the swastika, the original letter Z would become associated with Putin's Nazis and no normal person would want to use it.

Instead of BC and AD, we would have BZ and AZ (won't let me reverse the Z but you get the idea)

[If some figures out a simple scripted way of reversing the letter Z let me know as I intend putting this idea into practice]

xenzag, Mar 10 2022

Eihwaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eihwaz
U+16C7 or ᛇ [pocmloc, Mar 10 2022]

Three dead as maternity hospital hit by Russian air strike https://www.bbc.co....rld-europe-60675599
[Loris, Mar 10 2022]

The deliberate targeting and killing of civilians https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3h4HF48O3Ag
Genocide [xenzag, Mar 11 2022]

(?) Poison research https://www.newscen...8-b017-23728393ad54
dangerous hobby, even for professionals [Sgt Teacup, Mar 11 2022]

Poison research (Sgt Teacup's link above, on archive.org) https://web.archive...8-b017-23728393ad54
Access article despite region-lock [Loris, Mar 11 2022]

7 ugliest flowers https://backgarden.org/ugly-flowers/
a listicle [Voice, Mar 11 2022]

letter Z is now toxic https://theconversa...0fortoday4.0styling
[xenzag, Mar 29 2022]

Trump calls Putin's invasion a genius action https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cRpeJpBYXVs
[xenzag, Apr 04 2022]

Media bias https://theoracle.g...8607574-900x720.png
[Voice, Apr 04 2022]

http://www.insanitek.net/gconyers/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/media_bias.jpg media bias
[Voice, Apr 04 2022]

Cowards with guns https://www.bbc.com...rld-europe-60989121
[4and20, Apr 06 2022]

Trump "fawning over Putin" in Syria. https://www.newswee...attack-syria-879421
By bombing his forces into oblivion. [doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022, last modified Apr 07 2022]

More Trump "fawning over Putin" in Syria. https://www.newswee...mp-considers-883947
This time by ordering airstrikes that killed a couple of hundred of his forces. [doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022, last modified Apr 07 2022]

If you do listen to this be forewarned, it will change you, and not necessarily in a good way. https://podcasts.ap...714?i=1000523592748
It's extremely dark, but I think awareness of this is an unpleasant responsibility we share. [doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022]

Wait... it's all cake? https://www.google....mgrc=hc8fEJwXO5Q8XM
Always has been. [doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022]

Maybe I need to re-consider my views of the universe. https://imgflip.com/i/1ch9n4
[doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022]

Hitler https://www.goodrea...4.The_Hidden_Hitler
Taken by the short ones [4and20, Apr 07 2022]

[link]






       He's not trying to exterminate the entire country, he's trying to pacify and retake it. Can you stop with the needless adjectives?
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       Genocidal is an adjective.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       Reversing Z temporarily as a form of protests sounds great. Hopefully we can stop this before this becomes such a historically significant event that we'd be tempted to set dates based on in. That just adds one more letter of confusions for people reading older texts. After a brief internet search, it seems that there is no Unicode symbol that looks like a backwards Z. There are some web pages that create mirror text and substitute a Ƹ for that purpose, but that doesn't really make me thing backwards Z. You can get a revered and rotated Z if you steal the Cyrillic (Russian alphabet) letter И и . That has a nice upper and lower case. Greek letter koppa ϟ or maybe even sigma Σ could also be appropriate.   

       To help decide which is more readable, here are some sample words with the substitution:   

       Иebra иebra breeиe   

       Σebra breeΣe   

       ϟebra breeϟe
scad mientist, Mar 10 2022
  

       Well, I see that I can't just paste in Unicode characters here...
scad mientist, Mar 10 2022
  

       Depends how you write it. A reversed lower case z can look like lower case epsilon.   

       Instead of reversing Z we could rotate it as protest, that would be much esier because we could type N.   

       There are also issues to do with how this is implemented. Global search and replace might cause compatibility problems. Perhaps easier to just implement a local font over-ride as vaguely suggested by [a1]
pocmloc, Mar 10 2022
  

       //He's not trying to exterminate the entire country, he's trying to pacify and retake it.// I'm surprised you've assumed the role as his spokesperson. Your choice of course, meanwhile if he's not trying to exterminate the entire country, how come he's managed to drive 2 million out so far and has started attacking civilian populations as his primary target, including even maternity hospitals? His war is 100% aimed at exerminating the entire country. Using chemical weapons may well be next as he did in Syria.
xenzag, Mar 10 2022
  

       2 million out of 40 -.-
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       The fact that 17 people were injured in an attack on an evacuated hospital makes me wonder who those 17 people were. Is Ukraine taking a page from the Hamas playbook, using hospitals as military bases and launching attacks from them, then playing the victim card when the Israelis return fire? Because if you're using a hospital as a military base, hiding behind the red cross painted on it, I'm pretty sure that's a war crime.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       How strange that this is exactly what the Russians are saying, but then they would say that wouldn't they. I call it "the spouse beater excuse" as in "now look at what you made me do" Russia has systematically targeted hospitals in all recent conflicts. It's one of their well known tactics.
xenzag, Mar 10 2022
  

       If it's not actually being used AS a hospital, is it really a hospital?
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       I'm not defending Putin, I'm just sayin tone down the rhetoric a bit. Is it an invasion? Yes. Is it an attempt at an illegal occupation? Yes. Is it murder? Quite possibly. Is it genocide? No, it is not.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       I have no intention of "toning it down a bit" In fact i think I've been measured and tried to interject a level of the absurd as I always try to do into even the most dire of situations. Targetting a hospital where women were giving birth and destroying the entire building including all of the medical equipment is not a debating issue for me. Putin has been accused by Ukraine of being engaged in genocide. This accusation is widely supported. Putin is simply copying Hitler's failed tactic when he invaded Russia and killed everyone in sight. He's clearly a slow learner, but patient teachers will deliver the necessary lessons.
xenzag, Mar 10 2022
  

       a1, was the US civil war genocidal? Was Abraham Lincoln genocidal for forcing the southerners to stop calling themselves Confederates?
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       //If it's not actually being used AS a hospital, is it really a hospital?//   

       Footage of a heavily pregnant woman being stretchered out of the building suggests that the maternity hospital was being used as a maternity hospital.   

       Why was it still in use? I don't know. Maybe there is some specialist equipment which can't easily be moved.
The coverage of this event I've seen suggests that it was being used as little as possible.
"Thank god most of the people there were in the bomb shelter already," Mr Orlov, the deputy mayor said. "Otherwise it would have been much worse."
  

       //Is Ukraine taking a page from the Hamas playbook, using hospitals as military bases and launching attacks from them, then playing the victim card when the Israelis return fire?//   

       I dunno, but I doubt it. But if you listen to the Russians then probably the dead child was a nazi.
Loris, Mar 10 2022
  

       What dead child? The article I found about that hospital and maternity ward said 17 injuries, and no deaths. Are we talking about different incidents?
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       Ok, I am playing devil's advocate here, but I'm also quite serious about not throwing around hyperbole like the word "genocide". They aren't trying to wipe out an ethnic group or religious group, they're just saying "you're no longer Ukrainian, you're Russian now". That's not genocide any more than North Korea's goal of reunification with the South is genocidal in nature. When the NVA swept into South Vietnam and forcibly reintegrated them, it wasn't genocide either.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       I will most certainly raise a glass to 8th tonight.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       //What dead child? The article I found about that hospital and maternity ward said 17 injuries, and no deaths. Are we talking about different incidents?//   

       The 17 injured matches. Linked one of several articles.
Loris, Mar 10 2022
  

       1 dead child isn't genocide, either.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       21 - I'd stop now if I was you. Being permanently connected with debating semantics over a dead child is a stench you might find hard to shift. Instead being Devil's advocate, why not be an advocate for humanity and stop making excuses for the mass murder of ordinary human beings? There are ordinary people of all ages trying to survive without food, water or heat or shelter or medicines in minus 10 degrees of winter as shells, vacuum bombs and cruise missiles rain down on them, and you choose to explain Putin's motives. Shame on you. It's repulsive, disgusting, disappointing and depressing.
xenzag, Mar 10 2022
  

       I think you're right that russia is trying to take over Ukraine rather than exterminate its citizens.
When it says it's not targeting hospitals, I think that's probably true. But it's not obsessively trying to avoid hitting civilian areas either.
  

       The way I see it, Russia's plan was to roll in and quickly annex it, just like it did Crimea (and various other places). But it wasn't expecting strong resistance, and its military doctrine is to escalate using not-particularly- accurate (or even, carefully aimed) artillery fire to soften areas up where it encounters resistance.   

       //His war is 100% aimed at exerminating the entire country.//
If you meant - trying to stop the country from existing as an independent unit, then yes.
If you meant - trying to kill everyone in the country, then no. The evidence is entirely against that.
  

       But just to be explicit - it's still wrong and bad.
Loris, Mar 10 2022
  

       What Loris said, 100%.
21 Quest, Mar 10 2022
  

       A1, thank you. I had read that before commenting. The definition of Genocide accepted by the UN is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."   

       They're not trying to destroy Ukrainians, in whole or in part, as a group. They're trying to intimidate and terrorize them into submission. That's not genocide. Thank you, so much, for making my point for me.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       Yes, actually, it is. Ask the victims of any of history's many ACTUAL genocides, like the Bosniaks, Croats, Jews, and Armenians. Aborigines, Native Americans/First Nations. You want I should continue, boss?
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       Context is everything here. Yes, the situation is bad. Yes, it is wholly unacceptable. But don't lose sight of history, and of how much worse the situation COULD be.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       I think it is important when comparing mass atrocities and crimes against Humanity, to be clear about whether you are comparing them on a linear or log scale.
pocmloc, Mar 11 2022
  

       Arguing over a word while people are being exterminated. It's hard to believe. It really is, and quite shocking and distasteful. ie "don't try and make it sound as terrible as genocide when it's not that bad at all".
"Let all the poison that lurks in the mud hatch out"
I Claudius
xenzag, Mar 11 2022
  

       Even though I largely agree with you about Putin being evil, these rants are becoming tiresome.
Voice, Mar 11 2022
  

       Stick your head in the sand then.
xenzag, Mar 11 2022
  

       When Russia has more gulags than China, kills as many civilians as North Korea, or is as focused on actual genocide as some of the Palestinian sects then I'll be as concerned about this, among all the world's evil, as you are.
Voice, Mar 11 2022
  

       I'm on the pedantic side. Words have meaning, and using them when they are not accurate descriptions of what is happening, does not clarify the situation.   

       In any horrendous situation when some people are behaving badly and causing destruction, clarity and understanding of the situation is vital.   

       I think that in general, people who wish to stop the bad behaviour benefit from clarity and transparency of information and communication. The wickedness needs to be observed in detail and described accurately if there is any hope of mobilising to stop or prevent atrocities, death, destruction and general bad behaviour.   

       I also think that people who want to behave badly and cause death and destruction generally benefit from unclarity, obfuscation, exaggeration and misleading use of language.
pocmloc, Mar 11 2022
  

       Great - I'm sure the poor civilians being slaughtered will appreciate your pedantic attention.   

       "Oh I hear you said that youre dying with a bullet in your spine...... you do realise that youre needs an apostrophe, and is actually spelled you're? - here, I just happen to have one in the glove compartment of my giant climate wrecking SUV - shall I post it to you now?"
xenzag, Mar 11 2022
  

       //"Oh I hear you said that youre dying with a bullet in your spine...... you do realise that youre needs an apostrophe, and is actually spelled you're? - here, I just happen to have one in the glove compartment of my giant climate wrecking SUV - shall I post it to you now?"//   

       You're writing that on your own idea of changing how to spell words.
Loris, Mar 11 2022
  

       Is that bullet in his spine, or in his ass cheek? If the bullet is actually lodged in the meaty part of his buttocks, that makes a huge difference in terms of how bad the injury is, and what we need to do to treat it. In terms of legal charges, it could make a difference between assault with a deadly weapon and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. Yes, he was shot in the back. He was not shot in the spine, he was not paralyzed by the injury, etc. Words matter. I'm surprised to find you arguing that they don't on the HB.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       I think it is tragic that these civilians being slaughtered by indiscriminate use of nuclear and biological weapons. I think the ongoing cannibalism of their bodies is horrible.
pocmloc, Mar 11 2022
  

       This mass rape of innocent Ukrainians must be stopped!
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       In other contexts. targeting hospitals and civilians and whatnot to deliberately demoralize a population for a political end is known as terrorism.
RayfordSteele, Mar 11 2022
  

       I believe that was the exact word I used, Ray.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       This place should be renamed as The Hatebakery. I never thought I would see so much hostility and actual merriment being made over a war where ordinary civilians are the main target. Shame on those so keen here to delight in trying to outdo each other’s displays of pedantry and negativity as genocide is taking place in a European country. “It’s not genocide - it’s only a special operation” Putin
xenzag, Mar 11 2022
  

       It's literally not genocide though... just as it's not rape or cannibalism, either.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       They’re always looking for new spokespersons at the Kremlin. Repeat after me: “It’s not genocide” You’re hired.
xenzag, Mar 11 2022
  

       jfc I think that this - multi-thread! - argument is the the most asinine discussion on the whole of the halfbakery, a site, I hasten to add, which is pretty much for the sole purpose of generating and discussing inconsequentialities.   

       Please, if you don't like the way someone is using a word, just let them use it wrong. It doesn't matter. They're wrong, you're right and nothing is going to change that. I don't go around correcting people for saying "whilst" when then mean "while" even though that is by far a graver crime against language than xenzag's hyperbole.
calum, Mar 11 2022
  

       I am not sure who hates what. I don't really hate anyone on here. But since the last grumpy-session was partially successfully defused by asking what everyone's favourite flower was, I think I will ask a different question to everyone this time:   

       Which type of flower do you most actively dislike? Which is your least favourite or most hated flower?   

       (I'm pedantically interested that one can have a "favourite" thing but I am struggling to concisely define the opposite)
pocmloc, Mar 11 2022
  

       Pheno geno roses.
21 Quest, Mar 11 2022
  

       //Which type of flower do you most actively dislike? Which is your least favourite or most hated flower?//   

       LOL! Bravo.   

       What's that flower that the guy in Breaking Bad used to poison that kid? I don't like that flower. Very dark plot twist too, made me not like Walt anymore.
doctorremulac3, Mar 11 2022
  

       //Breaking Bad// Ricin is found in Ricinus communis (Castor Bean) and in Lily-Of-The-Valley. Convallatoxin is also found in Convallaria majalis (Lily-Of-The-Valley). The average poisoner finds it easier to source ricin from castor bean. I don't recommend it (see link).
Sgt Teacup, Mar 11 2022
  

       So the guy was planning to poison people or just make poision for fun? Kind of gotta assume if somebody's making a chemical weapon it's not just to have it sitting on their desk I guess.
doctorremulac3, Mar 11 2022
  

       Genocide would be to try and eliminate a people group.   

       Least favorite flower? Amaranth. On the interwebs they try and pass off amaranth as rare 'love lies bleeding.' It's pigweed, fer christsakes.
RayfordSteele, Mar 11 2022
  

       Given that there's already been some confusion over the hospital strike, I thought I'd mention that the BBC is now reporting (as of an hour ago) that the pregnant woman photographed on a stretcher - and her baby both died. So the total deaths is at least 5 and you may see that in some reports.
Determining casualties is generally pretty hard. Outside of war, I've noticed that in highly developed countries the number starts high and goes down (presumably people get double-counted as missing, or there's an estimate of those in the area or something) Conversely in developing countries and in wars they tend to report confirmed casualties only, so the number starts very low, and may always be quite a significant under-estimate.
Loris, Mar 14 2022
  

       So if I decide to cash in John's life insurance am I going to commit a genocide against John? The word must constitute a broad culture, even beyond the culture a family has. Even beyond the culture a town has. Get into phenotype and the line is just as fuzzy. A genocide against people who have the GTTTCACTTTGAGTAGT.. .....GTTGAG gene? (constituting John's nearly precise genetic makeup)
Voice, Mar 14 2022
  

       As an alternative to this idea, we could just emphasise that Z stands for Zelensky. (I'm not the first person to suggest this).
pertinax, Mar 14 2022
  

       The last link article is worth reading re the toxicity of the letter Z which has now become accepted as the symbol representing Putin's genocide in Ukraine.
xenzag, Mar 29 2022
  

       Dictionaries don't change reality, they reflect it.
Voice, Mar 29 2022
  

       In Germany you will be arrested for any display of a swastika or use of the Nazi salute. I can easily envisage the use of a single letter Z being made illegal for the same reasons ie that it is a provocative and offensive symbol of hatred and fascist oppression attached to Putin, Russia's version of Hitler. He's actually more like Stalin, but as nasty psycho dictators go, there's not much to choose between them. Meanwhile it's good to see his "genius" attack on Ukraine has resulted in him getting his arse well and truly kicked.
xenzag, Mar 29 2022
  

       //In Germany you will be arrested for any display of a swastika or use of the Nazi salute. I can easily envisage the use of a single letter Z being made illegal for the same reasons//   

       Great prediction. Only a day after a1 posted a link to a reuters article which says it already is.
Loris, Mar 29 2022
  

       //He's actually more like Stalin, but as nasty psycho dictators go, there's not much to choose between them//   

       There are thousands (or millions, depending) of evil dictators to choose from. There should be a comparative archive complete with historical context. I honestly think the top hundred common denominators of evil dictatorship can be measured and thereby guarded against. The interaction between social mores and consent to be governed should be paid particular attention.   

       Humans have a horrible tenancy to reduce complex social interactions to "X bad" and thereby invite piles of real evil Y into our societies. Willful ignorance, arrogance, undue submission to authority, reductionism, and intellectual laziness have caused more harm than the seven deadly sins.
Voice, Mar 29 2022
  

       //swastika//
The swastika was an obscure symbol to begin with, so banning it doesn't affect much else.
"Z", on the other hand, is already everywhere. Banning it is a bit redundant. May as well try to ban the colour blue.
neutrinos_shadow, Mar 29 2022
  

       //ban the colour blue.// Great idea, when do we start? Do we give warnings or move straight to punishments?
pocmloc, Mar 29 2022
  

       //Willful ignorance, arrogance, undue submission to authority, reductionism, and intellectual laziness//   

       Arguably, these are already included in the Seven Deadly Sins, under Pride and Sloth. But I take your point.
pertinax, Mar 29 2022
  

       [xenzag], you were right; on the new evidence from Bucha, *now* it's genocide.
pertinax, Apr 04 2022
  

       Was the firebombing of Tokyo attempted genocide?
Voice, Apr 04 2022
  

       Yes it was. Now a question for you: Do you still support Trump's description of Putin's invasion as a genius action?
xenzag, Apr 04 2022
  

       mass murder and a war crime. But genocide and mass murder are two entirely different crimes with different motives, methods, and results.
Voice, Apr 04 2022
  

       The International War Crimes tribunal will decide. I would like to see Trump also indicted as an accomplice over his remarks in support for Putin's invasion.
xenzag, Apr 04 2022
  

       // The International War Crimes tribunal //   

       Now that I can get behind. Whether or not it can be called genocide it's evil, highly illegal, and needs to end with Putin's head on a pike.   

       //Trump//   

       no
Voice, Apr 04 2022
  

       Yes Trump - he spoke enthusiastically in support of the invasion with his "Putin is a genius for doing this" remarks. By saying this, Trump appointed himself as Putin's spokesperson, so he also deserves to have his day in the war crimes court explaining himself.
xenzag, Apr 04 2022
  

       //Do you still support Trump's description of Putin's invasion as a genius action?//   

       I never said I did. I haven't heard the comment, and I don't know its context. As such, I have nothing worth saying about it. I have a lot to say about what you think about it, but I'm forbearing.
Voice, Apr 04 2022
  

       I remember following a link to see the Trump quote xenzag keeps going on about. Chasing it up again, the article doesn't give a full account, but does use all the relevant phrases - the article is titled "Trump cheers on Putin’s ‘savvy’ invasion of Ukraine. ‘This is genius’". The thing is, the article was written before the invasion actually commenced (the article was published 23 February).
I /did/ point this out, but unfortunately the comment has since been deleted as part of the idea.
Loris, Apr 04 2022
  

       Let me help you out here with your memory. Visit the last link for Trump's actual words spoken in person. It's so bad, no one could make it up. He even advocates the same action in his own country. After you've watched it, you can see with 100% clarity why Putin put Trump into the Whitehouse to be his fawning poodle.
xenzag, Apr 04 2022
  

       Those are Trumps words cut into parts and surrounded by fluff intended to make him look as bad as possible. I meant the actual complete context. What was the question? What, if anything, was said between those segments? What was the main drive of his speech?   

       And also how is it wrong to admit someone you don't like can be smart? Or that someone who is evil is also smart? Knowing your enemy doesn't mean hating your enemy.
Voice, Apr 04 2022
  

       I think there's a trap here. [xenzag] has fallen into it. [Voice] has fallen into it. The media outlets reporting Trump have fallen into it.   

       The //main drive of his speech//, if it was anything like other speeches of his that I've watched or heard, did not exist; rather, there was a tangle of provocations, which served the purpose of riling up as many people as possible: this works better if the speech has no "main drive", except what hopeful or exasperated onlookers read into it.   

       Provocation is his one and only talent, and the bitterness which can be seen in this thread shows that he has not lost that talent.
pertinax, Apr 05 2022
  

       //Yes Trump - he spoke enthusiastically in support of the invasion with his "Putin is a genius for doing this" remarks. By saying this, Trump appointed himself as Putin's spokesperson, so he also deserves to have his day in the war crimes court explaining himself.//   

       In that same interview he also said (of Putin's invasion):   

       "By the way, this never would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable. This would never have happened.... No, it’s very sad. Very sad."   

       That's speaking "enthusiastically in support of the invasion"?   

       Can we please have this site go back to things other than an obsession about some former politician? Xenzag, please. Do we have to do this hate dance about Trump constantly? You hate him, that's fine, but can we talk about other things occasionally?   

       You're a very creative person, you post clever things here, you're better than this Trump obsessed Hatebakery transformation thing. Let's try to move on to more interesting stuff okay?
doctorremulac3, Apr 05 2022
  

       What's the trap? If I'm in one, I would like to extricate myself.
Voice, Apr 05 2022
  

       Just as [xenzag] is wasting their time attacking the Orange Man in this context, you, [Voice], are wasting your time defending him.   

       Think about the Tar Baby in the Brer Rabbit story; [xenzag] is punching the Tar Baby, which, as we know from the story, is counterproductive. But, by intervening, you're just getting tar on yourself, too. Nobody is winning here.
pertinax, Apr 06 2022
  

       Shit orange man is best forgotten. There must be a way to remind people how evil he is without also giving him attention. He still needs detractors for some reason, since he came far too close in the last election, given his insurrection. Who knows, maybe [xenxag] is creeping up on a solution.
4and20, Apr 06 2022
  

       "By the way, this never would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable. This would never have happened.... No, it’s very sad. Very sad." Yet it's exactly what happened in Syria when Putin rehearsed for his genocide in Ukraine as Trump fawned all over him, just as he always does. Meanwhile anyone who feels embarrassed at my references to Trump can avoid them by not reading my posts. I see no difference between opposing Putin and opposing Trump. They're both equally repulsive, dangerous and damaging lunatics.
xenzag, Apr 06 2022
  

       The analogy with Syria is a good one, [xen], but you're still punching a tar baby.
pertinax, Apr 06 2022
  

       //Yet it's exactly what happened in Syria when Putin rehearsed for his genocide in Ukraine as Trump fawned all over him, just as he always does.//   

       Trump ordered airstrikes in Syria that killed a couple of hundred of Putin's forces. Weird way to fawn over somebody, killing their troops. (links)   

       But can we occasionally talk about something other than Donald Trump? I love a good debate, but there's a lot of things in the world that aren't Donald Trump. In fact, MOST of the things in the world aren't Donald Trump. The only time I ever think about the guy is when this never ending, incredibly boring Trump obsession darkens the once happy Halfbakery.   

       He's a billion times worse than Hitler. Good, it's settled, let's move on now.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       Interesting side note: at least according to Wikipedia, Russian scientists had been claiming that most slavs in Eastern Europe probably came from Ukraine.
4and20, Apr 06 2022
  

       See? Now that's interesting, Trump is not. At least not to me.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       //MOST of the things in the world aren't Donald Trump// Fake news.
pocmloc, Apr 06 2022
  

       Well, SOME of the things in the world anyway. I can think of several. A spoon... a basketball... umm... another spoon...   

       Let me get back you.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       I've been meeting quite a few Russians who've left their country after the war. Most of them claim to be against the war, but then there's the Russian with Tatar heritage who still loves Stalin. I know people say that 80% of Russians support the war, but how effective must the propaganda be if a people who became victims of genocide under Stalin still venerate the man?
4and20, Apr 06 2022
  

       //... a basketball... // Orange
pocmloc, Apr 06 2022
  

       I'm a bit of a history nerd and I've studied what Russians did under Stalin. There's a podcast called The Martyrmade Podcast, an episode called "The Anti- Humans". I listened to it in horror because I think we need to study human on human atrocities just like we need to study cancer in order to understand and prevent it.   

       But as I've told others, it's so bad you might want to just take my word for it. The title "Anti- Humans" is very apt.   

       I put a link up but be warned, it'll leave a dark spot on your soul. Seriously.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       //... a basketball... // Orange   

       ...wait... a basketball... IS orange!   

       Is this like one of those "It's all cake?" revelations? (link)   

       Well, spoons aren't Donal... oh my god. (link)
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       //how effective must the propaganda be if a people who became victims of genocide under Stalin still venerate the man?//   

       Well, there's always Stockholm syndrome, I suppose. I know a Palestinian who admires King Richard the Lionheart. This sounds like a similar phenomenon.
pertinax, Apr 06 2022
  

       Trump supporter Stockholm syndrome reference in 3...2...1...   

       Maybe I should just accept it. Maybe Trump IS the center of the universe. That's kind of disappointing. So much for my interest in the universe.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       //Trump IS the center of the universe// You said it [DrR].
pocmloc, Apr 06 2022
  

       Well that sucks. Let's see if I can apply that as the answer to life the universe and everything:   

       Is the Universe infinite? Trump. Could there be an edge of the Universe? Trump. If the Universe is infinite, how can it be expanding? Trump. What is the Universe made of? Trump. Are the laws of physics the same everywhere? Trump. Do parallel universes exist? Trump. What came before the Universe? Trump. Will the Universe ever end? Trump.   

       So the answer to "life, the universe and everything" isn't 42, it's 45. They almost got it right.   

       Well that settles is, there are no more mysteries to explore. Somebody turn the lights out as you leave, we're all done here.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       I'll take your word for it. Just feels like 90% I guess.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       // you, [Voice], are wasting your time defending him.//   

       I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending rationality. Hitler was a good artist and a great orator. Stalin was a capable politician. Genghis Khan was a genius tactician and strategist.   

       To attack every single attribute of a disliked person or group is to encourage myriad mental shortcuts which cannot be accepted. That ends in inefficiencies, evils, and even genocides.
Voice, Apr 06 2022
  

       And then kill him.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       If you kill Hitler one of his generals rises to political power. Being more competent and less prone to micromanagement and meth he captures and keeps half of Europe and half of Russia at the end of the war leading to World War 3 by the year 1990 and the destruction of three billion lives.   

       But on a more serious note the sociological conditions of post WW1 Germany are what set up WW2, complete with its genocide. Just saying "Hitler bad" is an easy way to dismiss it but each person cheering him on in his early speeches bears some guilt, as do the people who encouraged the treaty of Versailles in its wording and so forth.Blaming the genocide on Hitler makes it so easy to not have to look at similar situations, where other peoples are singled out for persecution and which may lead to the same kind of evil.   

       Most important to look at are people it's most popular to say are the oppressors, as a class. Because that's how it happens. This group is oppressing everyone else, let's punish them, tie their hands, and keep a close eye on them. Germany justified its actions by claiming the Jews were oppressing everyone else. And it was very popular to do so. They needed a scapegoat. So unsimplifying arguments against scapegoats is one of the very best ways to be sure the Never Again holds true.   

       In later stages, when it's more obvious and much less easy to stop, look for money being directly confiscated from one particular class or group and for people from that class or group being segregated from society. Also disenfranchisement. By the time that group is forced to segregate itself it's probably too late to do anything but mitigate the damage.
Voice, Apr 06 2022
  

       //the sociological conditions of post WW1 Germany are what set up WW2, complete with its genocide. Just saying "Hitler bad" is an easy way to dismiss it//   

       Yup, and it's also an easy way to not be on the lookout for the conditions that can cause a group of people to de-humanize and perpetrate genocide on other groups. It's easy to say "I'm good, my group is good, we'd never do something like that." but we have people here in the civilized west that would love to see education camps if not outright death camps set up for political dissidents. I've heard people defend mass murders Stalin, Mao and Castro as good progressives who just had to "break a few eggs to make an omelette".   

       And forgetting about the effects of WW1 on civilization is bad history too. Billed as "the war to end war" it was actually the war that became the progenitor of WW2, the Cold War and the communist genocides across the world that killed the better part of a tenth of a billion people. It also broke up the Ottoman Empire and set up the turbulent middle east and its subsequent never ending wars and conflicts that are with us to this day.   

       My opinion was that WW1 and its subsequent wars were (and are) largely caused by the modern industrial age's unfortunate byproduct, the military industrial complex. And it's still with us. To think the ONLY thing that causes war is the occasional bad person is to bely the fact that there's big business in war and turning people against each other. There will always be crazy megalomaniacal warlords, but it's society that needs to control the war machine by keeping those people out of power. (Looking at you Russia)   

       I'm very pro having a strong war deterring military and very supportive of brave soldiers that put their lives on the line to protect their countries, that's why I think it's my duty as a citizen to try my hardest to keep them out of harms ways by not sending them off to pointless never ending wars. Unfortunately, at some point they can grow into wars we HAVE to fight.
doctorremulac3, Apr 06 2022
  

       I won't spoil the surprise ending. It's a cute story, check it out.
doctorremulac3, Apr 07 2022
  

       Hitler's only talent was that he sucked a mean dick, and by "mean" I am stating that all the dicks he sucked were nasty. There are at least two books written about this. You'll never convince me that it's wrong to dehumanize Hitler and Stalin.
4and20, Apr 07 2022
  

       It's unethical and also mistaken to dehumanize anyone.
Voice, Apr 07 2022
  
      
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