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Fair Border Controls

Equal Opportunity Border Controls
  [vote for,

Simple idea really - if as a nation you're really sold on the idea of establishing punitive controls at the border, then this policy should be applied irrespective of wealth.

Rather than only stop border-crossings for the very poorest of people, you should also apply the same controls for anyone with money as well.

This would extend to the limitation of all offshore jiggery-pokery and the establishment of local independently owned legal entities for any company wishing to trade as a multinational. Any failure to submit verifiable accounts would result in the resident owner of that company going to prison and seisure and national redistribution of all company assets.

Similarly, ownership of land or property would only be allowable by residents (and by implication, tax-payers) of that country.

The practice of non-domiciled persons conducting business and generating income locally would be outlawed (it's the contrapositive corollary to the "no representation without taxation" mantra. i.e. "no ownership without residency"). A transition period would be applied to allow non-doms so encumbered to relieve themselves of their assets through normal market channels.

Much of the legal framework for this is already in place, albeit with gray-areas here and there, it just needs a little more formalisation and enforcement.

The benefits would be establishment of "proper" sovereignty since you'd be ring-fencing the country's economy, ensuring all participants are mandated to follow local laws and taxation policies. Currently, this is very much not the case. It's tricky of course with the internet and all the international infrastructure, supply lines etc - but maybe we're not ready for all that yet.

The idea benefits from being consistent and could encourage feelings of belonging and national responsibility, rather than the free-for-all we have now - and, might enable enacting useful policy things like a UBI for example.

Yes, it would likely trigger a bit of a recession, but since we're all buggered anyway, maybe now is the time to go the full North Korea? (Though I suspect in practice, North Korea's border remains more permeable for anyone willing to pay for the privilege)

The downside is that if any particular country goes bad, or gets top-heavy with corrupt individuals (heaven forfend) then that established ruling elite would be put into a stronger and more dominant position than before - especially where they'd be able to flout the local laws (being in charge of enforcing them) and operate internationally outside of the legal impositions of the local fiefdom...

zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

The Borg-Lime consensus https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cydkTy6GmFA
... from The Third Man [pertinax, Oct 03 2020]

Majestic Equality https://www.goodrea...rbids-rich-and-poor
Anatole France [8th of 7, Oct 03 2020]

She Was Poor but She Was Honest https://en.wikipedi..._but_She_Was_Honest
It's the same the whole world over... [8th of 7, Oct 11 2020]

Like this only with slaps. https://www.youtube...watch?v=X6oUz1v17Uo
Why? Good question. [doctorremulac3, Oct 14 2020]

The motivation of writers https://www.brainyq...muel_johnson_170103
Samuel Johnson [8th of 7, Oct 15 2020]


       //ownership of land or property would only be allowable by residents (and by implication, tax- payers) of that country// - Greece used to do this, when it was run by a military government in the 70's - what it does is create an industry of people 'owning' property on behalf of foreigners.
hippo, Oct 02 2020

       This sounds like a nice planet to live on. Where is it ? We would like to go there - we could take it over in a matter of minutes.   

       The idea seems to be to depend on replacing standard greedy, selfish, venal, corruptible and untrustworthy human beings with some other sort of human.   

       Good luck with that.
8th of 7, Oct 02 2020

       Quite possibly [hippo], I don't doubt it, and once you start down this road, you have to commit to it, stamping out any such nonsense as and when you find it. Loophole exploitation should be the first to be investigated under the transparent accountancy laws, failure to provide receipts for moneys earned and property held, would result in forfeiture.   

       I think that's the thrust of this idea, **if** we must insist on keeping out poor foreigners, on the basis of stricter border controls, then logically (and morally perhaps) we are also obligated to impose equally draconian controls on rich foreigners as well.   

       That's not easy to do, I agree, since rich folks often have power, and power, as we know, corrupts. But this idea is the logical continuation of the principle of imposing anti immigration controls on poor people.
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       //The idea seems to be to depend on replacing standard greedy, selfish, venal, corruptible and untrustworthy human beings with some other sort of human.// Yes 8th - it does doesn't it. It's a *modest proposal* that hinges on that very point.   

       If placing robust controls on all strata of foreigners is dependent on ~ "some other sort of human" ~ then are we saying that we only place robust controls on poor foreigners because we are the venal, corruptible kind?   

       And, the opposite (but logically consistent) version of this idea, which would be an entirely open and internationally law-abiding society with free movement across borders for all, irrespective of wealth; Would that be easier or harder to take over in minutes? If it's the same, in terms of take-over-ability, then what shape society is it more difficult to erode/conquer?
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       The Cube-shaped ones.   

       Stupid question ....   

       // are we saying that we only place robust controls on poor foreigners because we are the venal, corruptible kind? //   

       Yes. Humans are deeply unpleasant, amoral creatures, one of the very few species that systematically predate their own kind.   

       Any more easy questions ... ?
8th of 7, Oct 02 2020

       I wont contest that [kdf] but would be interested in your thoughts. If you're pro immigration controls, do you think they should be extended to wealthy people and their means of influence? And if you're not, do you agree that a robust set of internationally enforceable rules and transparent accountancy are a prerequisite to allow freedom for all, whilst providing a means of curtailing shadowy shenanigans?
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       // Many species eat their own young. //   

       This is entirely correct, and indisputable.   

       We draw your attention to the qualifier "systematically" ...
8th of 7, Oct 02 2020

       //Similarly, ownership of land or property would only be allowable by residents (and by implication, tax-payers) of that country.//   

       I might actually be OK with this, if it could be enforced. Which it probably can't since plenty of property is owned by companies, all it would take is for a person to set up a property management company and rent to themselves.   

       In the real world it's working the other way around. Portugal offers Golden Visas, spend 350k Euros on a property (its amazing how crappy they can be) and you're an EU resident.   

       //The practice of non-domiciled persons conducting business and generating income locally would be outlawed//   

       In many cases, it is. See all tourism visas. Please generate funds, come here with those funds and leave in the minimum possible time frame without those funds.   

       But what happens to touring musicians for example? Or any other specialized labor that needs to be brought in? "Oooh, that's a hell of an oil leak, we need to start dealing with that quick-sharp - set up some engineering scholarships, maybe look into the idea of a field- deployable technical college?"
bs0u0155, Oct 02 2020

       I guess it's one of those omelette scenarios. You either live in a free and open society where people, their money and skills are free to come and go, or you live in a more walled-garden type society where border controls are more tightly enforced. Either way, you've got to break one bunch of eggs or another.   

       Lots of countries these days seem to have decided to go down this second route, though it seems to me, they're only keen to impose the restrictions on regular people, leaving super-wealthy lots of loopholes to continue to gad about as they please. I'm saying, if we're going to go along with that (and that is an unresolved *if*) then at least let's do it properly and impose the same restrictions of freedom that the rest of us have to abide by, on the wealthy classes as well.   

       The property management company loophole could be closed by saying anyone who's a director of a company operating in the country had to remain resident in that country. Holidays would be allowed, but if you moved abroad permanently, you'd have to relinquish all your property rights in your previous jurisdiction. A country is nothing without borders, after-all. Sovereignty and all that stuff. This just finishes off what the populist notions of nationalism have started, and brings it to it's natural conclusion.   

       //predate their own kind// and 8th bit late now, but I think your *modest proposal* allusion went completely over my head!
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       I will freely admit to reading only a sentence or two but isn't the logic of this ultimately that private land ownership should not exist?   

       Humans have equal inalienable rights, but a right to replace or take away part of what other humans already own is not one of them.
theircompetitor, Oct 02 2020

       [tc] as you say, I think you missed a bit.   

       I guess the tl;dr could be paraphrased as "If you believe you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere."   

       //isn't the logic of this ultimately that private land ownership should not exist?// No - and I have zero idea how you could have landed so entirely off-target - weird that you'd jump to that conclusion so quickly.   

       No, the logic of this is that if everyone must belong to a country (i.e. you agree with the idea of having closed borders) then to protect the integrity of your country, it naturally follows that freedom of movement of property across borders should be controlled as well.   

       If you own something in the country in which you live and pay your taxes, then your property rights are be protected to the full extent of the law.
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       //Rather than only stop border-crossings for the very poorest of people, you should also apply the same controls for anyone with money as well.//   

       What rationale exists for this? Wouldn't a common sense immigration system be a merit based one?
theircompetitor, Oct 02 2020

       I tend to agree, personally, I'd prefer to see open borders everywhere, but that decision's not been mine to make, and it's also not what this idea is about - closed borders are fact, they've been enacted, the people have spoken, it's all about nationalism these days, so we kind of have to come to terms with what that means.   

       Across the world over the last 5 years, increasingly stringent border controls have been put in place, counter to the benefits of any merit or open based systems. It is generally harder these days to move around to live and work, making the most of the global marketplace of countries, unless you're *extremely* wealthy.   

       I'm saying if people want to revoke the freedom of movement of people, then logically, they should also revoke the freedom of movement of capital (across borders) as well, since it is this that leads to corruption, tax avoidance and the erosion of the rule of law, all of which weaken the very nation that the closed borders policy was seeking to strengthen in the first place.   

       You get more bang for your nationalist buck.
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       // corruption, tax avoidance and the erosion of the rule of law, all of which weaken the very nation //   

       They weaken the government, not the nation per se. They're not the same thing at all.
8th of 7, Oct 02 2020

       Highly related, though. Weak governments create power gaps which are filled by the first with the most.
RayfordSteele, Oct 02 2020

       I disagree with that [8th] - a nation is a place where there is rule of law, where you can make long-term plans and be reasonably confident of protection from arbitrary theft and violence from the local gangsters. In a corrupt or weakened nation, that confidence is harder to come by.   

       And Yes, Rayford, gangsters will fill the gaps everywhere, best keep them to a minimum and ensure those you elect to govern have their actions bound very tightly by law. Letting them flit across borders with their ill gotten gains is a loophole.
zen_tom, Oct 02 2020

       I suppose [8th] is taking Harry Lime's position about the Borgias vs. the cuckoo clock.   

       I wonder how his sideline in adulterated antibiotics is going.   

       [+] for idea, by the way.
pertinax, Oct 03 2020

       //What rationale exists for this? Wouldn't a common sense immigration system be a merit based one?//   

       Who determines merit?
How do you judge the worth of one individual over another? Wealth?

       I feel that I am a citizen of planet Earth and therefore no borders should be closed to me unless I prove myself to be unworthy of that status.
On the other hand as a citizen of Canada I feel that ownership of property should require obtaining citizenship of the country I wish to purchase a portion of.

       Neither of those options are currently part of law... at least not here, and it's thrown a major wrench in the works as far as I can tell.   

       Should the wealthy face the same restrictions as the poor?
Oh, you betcha.

       Yeah, right... <link>
8th of 7, Oct 03 2020

       //Should the wealthy face the same restrictions as the poor?// More, but it's not linear.
wjt, Oct 06 2020

       I'm of the reasoning that [2fries] shared. Coming from a Buddhist point of view, we are all one. So if you shut your borders, be it physical or philosophically, you only shutter out yourself. Om...
blissmiss, Oct 08 2020

       I'd ask the question "What is a country and what's its purpose?" I think the answer is, it's a collective designated by geographic boundaries. OK, so why? Presumably for some benefit. OK, for who? The people within those boundaries, the people in that collective, the members of that club.   

       Might add it would be reasonable to expect it should be managed in such a way as to be beneficial to other "clubs" but if there's a conflict of interest, the club we're managing would come first.   

       So IF that's what a country is and what it's for, decisions about everything should be made to do that job, benefiting the country in such a way that negative impact to other countries is minimized as much as possible.   

       So which members are we taking care of first? The very rich and powerful? They're doing fine so let's not worry about them for now. Who's not doing fine? The poor, the disadvantaged, those who have no home, no healthcare, no hope. I would think any club, group or collective should tend to those members first.   

       So assuming those rules are agreed to by the majority (and that's a big assumption, I know) what immigration rules should be put in place that most benefits the most needy members of that club?   

       I'll leave that to the smart folks in the room. I'm just here to ask questions.
doctorremulac3, Oct 08 2020

       Large groups of people don't always do what's in their own best interest - especially when what is in the best interest is technical or counter-intuitive. Naturally, people only form intuitive conclusions based on what they see, hear or feel - and much of that "experience" is today delivered through mass media - and much of which is owned by exceedingly rich individuals.   

       It's not rocket science, nor do you have to be the smartest person in the room to arrive at the conclusion that much of the focus and outlook of mass media supports the interests of their rich owners (and those with whom they do business).   

       So in a system that hands over control to whoever gets the most votes, and where voters see what someone wants them to see, those media owners have a big part to play in framing what's important, and what isn't. The main reason immigration gets marketed as being important, is because it creates a smoke screen and distracts from more important issues that exceedingly rich people might have cause to worry about.   

       Can't do anything about that I'm afraid, except become astoundingly rich ourselves - but if those rules are going to be imposed, then why not use the same arguments to pierce the smoke-screen and raise some taxes. Re-establish the rule of law and start doing some good. Turn the tables on the clever so-and-sos who are playing the system and getting away with it, to the detriment of all the little folks who will by-and-large remain poorer, irrespective of whether they earn 1% more or less due to some foreign people living in their neighborhoods, compared to the immeasurable boost they'd receive if the system wasn't geared to protect folks for whom nationality and law-adherence is optional.   

       In summary then, it's massively beneficial, morally sound, logically consistent, deliciously turn-the-tables-istic *and* respects the will of the people. What's not to like?
zen_tom, Oct 09 2020

       Those points about plutocracy are fair points, but they don't show the whole picture. There is more than one powerful class. There is the billionaire class, but there is also the class defined by Galbraith as "The New Class". Both of these classes have class interests which are not necessarily well aligned with the interests of the majority. Both of these classes have class ideologies.   

       See also Thomas Frank on the subject of "The New Class", except he doesn't call them that, he calls them "the ten percent", but they seem to be substantially the same people that Galbraith was talking about. They are also, I suggest, the same people that populists are usually referring to when they say "élite".   

       For an example of how the class interests of the New Class don't always align well with the general interest, consider George Monbiot's writing on "Love Miles".
pertinax, Oct 09 2020

       Let me get tribal here for a second. The tribe I come from, and the tribe I identify with, is the guys who start without a lot and make something of the world they've been given. A business, a home, a family, a tax base to support their community, pay for roads, law enforcement, emergency services etc. These are the folks I most want to protect. Let them keep what they earn, be free to live their lives and not have to be continually fighting off the privileged class that wants to enslave them in multi- generational debt, tell them what they can say and think, throw them and their kids into never ending profit generating wars that do a great job enhancing the lives of the wealthy but destroy working families by killing their children.   

       What border rules help these guys? That's what I support.   

       I'll check out those authors pertinax, sounds kind of interesting. I don't read though so any of their writing will have to be available on audiobooks.   

       Also, I don't want to give the impression I hate rich people, I don't, some of the people I love the most are very rich. Being rich obviously doesn't make you bad, it's being bored of being rich such that you're driven to get that dopamine rush out of controlling other people that makes you bad. In my eyes anyway.
doctorremulac3, Oct 10 2020

       Galbraith's "The Affluent Society" is available as an audiobook, but note that he doesn't talk about "The New Class" until near the end. You can find Thomas Frank speaking on youtube, which might get you more relevant material than audiobooks.   

       My hunch is, you're not going to like them, but Galbraith in particular is really useful if you want actual answers to the question "What the fuck were they thinking?", where "they" were the framers of the social-democratic post-war consensus.
pertinax, Oct 11 2020

       Actually agreed with what I heard Thomas Frank say while trying to fast forward through all his giggling throughout his conversation with the gal who was interviewing him.   

       I like it when people take a break from sociogenic mitosis driven tribalism, as fun as that is, to discuss engineering solutions to problems we face, even when it means occasionally being critical of their team. I think he was indulging in some of that, but it was kind of hard to tell through all the giggles.   

       Let me see if I can find something of his where there's not a pretty girl involved so he can get a sentence out without twittering like he's being tickled.
doctorremulac3, Oct 11 2020

       // Being rich obviously doesn't make you bad, //   

       True; but on the other hand, being bad can often make you rich.   

       Historically, virtuous people have rarely finished up being wealthy as a direct result of their own actions and choices.   

       There's a song that begins "She was poor but she was honest... " <link>
8th of 7, Oct 11 2020

       //take a break from sociogenic mitosis driven tribalism// me too, hence the idea here (and to be honest, I hope, everything I ever say) I'm too annoying to be accepted in any particular tribe, hence my furiously independent streak. Being non-tribal is very important to anyone not part of a tribe - and very worrying in a world that's increasingly splitting on artificially created tribal lines. Sadly the most tribal response people have is to immediately leap to the conclusion that anything they hear that they haven't already rehearsed in their tribal bubbles sounds like an attack or a move from "the other side".   

       I kind of imagine most people would agree with one another, if they stopped imagining everyone was in one tribe or another, but ironically perhaps, I blame a "side" for skewing peoples perceptions deliberately in that direction since it benefits them the most. That might signal to people that I'm in the liberal camp, which to some extent I probably am, just without all the (I'd argue pretend, or at least largely amplified) authoritarian virtue signalling that "leftists" tend to get blamed for. To others, that stance places me firmly in the libertarian camp, which might be partially right too, only without the childish belief in markets curing all ills and blindness to all of history, which firmly excludes me from that particular tribe.   

       That said, as someone who doesn't really identify with any tribe, I do understand the importance for promoting inclusion. If you're promoting fairness, freedom and the rule of law, it's important for everyone, whatever their tribe, to believe they can participate - when that faith is eroded, you just reduce the scale at which tribalism is measured - which I suppose is what we're trying to avoid - when it boils down to it, it's just the size of the tribe that people end up arguing over - is it the individual, family, community, region, political affiliation, nation-state or something bigger?   

       I don't understand the liberal criticism that I think you're pointing out [pertinax] - much of the post war consensus seems to have worked out quite well - at least the public presentation of it - behind the scenes with corruption, the nepotistic and profitable leveraging of manufactured wars, clandestine state meddling and an increasingly cavalier attitude towards the truth seem to me to be counter to those post-war ideals. There's nothing wrong with the ideals, it seems to me, rather a problem with sticking to them. But maybe I've completely missed the point, as I say, I don't think I'm properly getting it. So while it's not been a fantastic success, the failures, I'd argue are where that consensus was subverted or ignored by more cynical forces - the type of forces who are running the show today, protecting their hidden money channels and capability. This is the law- transcending group of kleptocrats, criminals, terrorists and mobsters who this idea is there to combat.   

       As [8th] points out, "It's the same the whole world over", but proper transparent application of carefully thought out law, built on liberal principles by people with some integrity (and yes, they do exist) is the only way to ever hope to change that.
zen_tom, Oct 12 2020

       I keep reading this as Fat Border Controls. This is where people have to be able to squeeze through a prescribed hole to get across the border.
xenzag, Oct 12 2020

       That will keep quite a few Americans out...   


       That's not a bad thing, though. There should be a worldwide ban on selling Bermuda shorts and leggings in those sizes... oh, the obesity...   

       Ideally, create a portal that excludes them, but lets their money through...
8th of 7, Oct 12 2020

       No it's not, it's where the border is really greasy so people trying to cross slip and slide back to their own side.
pocmloc, Oct 12 2020

       That sounds familiar - a literal "Jeux avec frontières" ? The horror ... the horror ...   

       Immigration controls which include jumping from one wobbly padded pedestal to another, dodging enormous padded pendula, and running uphill through custard will select entirely the wrong sort of candidate.   

       No-one wants a bruised, out-of-breath athlete smeared with custard driving their taxi, mending their blocked sink, or removing their appendix.   

       Except perhaps [xen], of course.
8th of 7, Oct 12 2020

       if you could resist pushing your ear down the plug hole in my sink, it wouldn't be blocked in the first place. This might be common place behaviour in your gaff, but we prefer to use the plug..... you know, that rubber thing on the end of a short chain you usually run around with wedged between your teeth...
xenzag, Oct 12 2020

       //...as someone who doesn't really identify with any tribe...// <spartacus>"I'm non-tribal too!" </spartacus>
hippo, Oct 12 2020

       //I'm too annoying to be accepted//   

       No you're not! </Cleese>
pertinax, Oct 12 2020

       I just can't understand how you can earn or be worth large sums of money without taking a slice from someone else's hard earnings and calling it your personal hard work. Hence, I suppose, for the difference between the words income, earnings, profit.   

       Money should be able to equate someone putting mortal on bricks and the pinnacle of fine art but somehow the worlds get bubbled off >from each other< and money loses the ability to do the it's job.
wjt, Oct 13 2020

       //somehow the worlds get bubbled off//   

       Umm ... what?
pertinax, Oct 13 2020

       Just a minor glitch in the [wjt] - human translation algorithm. The tech team are working on it. Nothing to worry about.
8th of 7, Oct 13 2020

       // I just can't understand how you can earn or be worth large sums of money without taking a slice from someone else's hard earnings and calling it your personal hard work. //   

       Are we familiar with the concept of positive GDP?
theircompetitor, Oct 13 2020

       We are.   

       A route to becoming very wealthy without grinding the faces of the poor* is to devise a product or service that very many people want, and that has a small cost to them which they are willing to pay, since they perceive they are getting "good value".   

       Something analogous to the postal or telephone service is a model to consider; the postal service is probably best. There is no "subscription", the service is open to all at a small, set, universal cost, and the function is useful and valued (It is important to note that we are not specifically talking about actual, real-world postal services - historically, state-run universal postal services frequently run at a loss and have to be subsidised from general taxation; this is accepted because the postal service is a way that the government sends out its tax bills and receives payments).   

       *Sadly, a traditional skill which seems to have largely been lost. You probably can't get the grit any more.
8th of 7, Oct 13 2020

       //A route to becoming very wealthy without grinding the faces of the poor*//   

       The members of Pink Floyd did it by regularly extracting money from a rich-ish, white, male middle-aged demographic in a manner so specific to that group that they'll be discovered as the modern Robin Hoods or something.
bs0u0155, Oct 13 2020

       // I just can't understand how you can earn or be worth large sums of money without taking a slice from someone else's hard earnings and calling it your personal hard work. Hence, I suppose, for the difference between the words income, earnings, profit.//   

       Oh it can be done, but like [8th] said, you'd 'better' have some grit.   

       A few rules of thumb;   

       1: If deep down you dislike wealthy people just because they have wealth, (even if you are unaware of this bias), you will never be able to become something you dislike.
I struggled with this one. When you're raised piss poor it easy to resent and even blame those with cash.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
2: Self employment. As long as you are selling your time to another person hourly you are on a treadmill designed to keep you just below cost of living so that life is a never ending struggle to make ends meet.
3: Property. Get the hell out of paying somebody rent. I don't care if it's a run down trailer. The payments you make go to your future-self instead of some landlords pocket. Also property appreciates in value where almost every other expense depreciates. Equity in property can be leveraged to finance other projects.
4: Passive income. Find ways to generate income where, once the ball is rolling, that income continues with a minimum of extra work.
5: Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty.
One fellow I knew who became quite well off told me; "Find what nobody else wants to do and you'll make money hand over fist."
He started his business with a mini-van, a shop vac, buckets, de-greaser, and rolls of polly.
He would clean the stainless steel in restaurant kitchens and suck out their grease traps at night. Rolled his earnings back into grabbing as many of the cities contracts as he could juggle.
Another guy here started Eddies Wholesale by paying farmers for collecting their chicken shit and selling it to retailers at a mark-up. He died not too long ago but his family is worth many millions of dollars now riding the wave of an animal shit empire.

       My wife and I started out moving to a depressed city with two kids and three grand in our pockets because it was possible to get a mortgage there because everything was for sale.
Almost twenty years of double-time later we are well on our way to making our first million... or at least having built that much equity.
We've squashed no other people to make it this far.

       We just work our asses off and try to make smart decisions about whether the money we spend has a chance of coming back.   

       ^ kudos
pertinax, Oct 14 2020

       // you can earn or be worth large sums of money without taking a slice from someone else's hard earnings and calling it your personal hard work. //   


       Only a few make it really big; but they do it by an act of intellectual creation which takes little or nothing from anyone else.   

       The Grishams, Rowlings, Kings and the like that regularly top the bestseller lists hardly fit the profile of top-hatted face-grinding mill owners.
8th of 7, Oct 14 2020

       Good point. Royalties. Excellent passive income if you can pull it off.   

       I had to make the choice between which would make the other possible; Royalties from inventions sustaining land ownership... or land ownership sustaining invention.   

       So much of life comes down to 50/50 decisions. I guess we'll get to see if I picked right or not.   

       //A few rules of thumb;//   

       Wow, these are absolutely brilliant and may be my favorite post on this website EVER.   

       A testament to real world, common sense individual empowerment. Bravo 2fries, bravo.   

       In a world of "Everything sucks, who do I blame and when will the revolution make everything happy?" this is like a friendly slap in the face. Like when Kirk slaps Bones to get wake him up from the alien love spores trance.
doctorremulac3, Oct 14 2020

       The scene where Nurse Chapel and Dr. M'Benga take turns to slap Spock is better.
8th of 7, Oct 14 2020

       Which one is that? Didn't somebody slap Spock causing him to slap them back much harder. Think that was Kirk maybe?   

       OK, idea not worth posting on its own: Music video featuring the percussion section consisting of Star Trek slaps a-la the Picard music video. (link)
doctorremulac3, Oct 14 2020

       // Which one is that? //   

       What, you don't know every episode off by heart yet ?   

       The Re-Education Camp is going to be mighty crowded ...
8th of 7, Oct 14 2020

       Art world , Financial world, labour market world.   

       If there is something that gives you money and no work or effort is given to society for that money then society is losing and the very reason of money is eroded.   

       A writer reading out aloud with all the nuances and facts or imaginings imparted in the work, in person, is something, An effort on the writer's part . A book buyer reading the 100,000th copy of the book not so much. I know the writer made effort for society in writing the book and deserves payment but should that then be a debt for my children's children.
wjt, Oct 15 2020

       What debt ?   

       Buying a book is voluntary. You don't have to spend the money if you don't want to, and by the time your grandchildren* get round to reading it, it may well be out of copyright and they can do it for free.   

       Or they can go to a library.   

       How is this "debt" generated ?   

       // the writer made effort for society in writing the book //   

       No, they made an effort for themselves, for selfish reasons (usually - some people write books and stuff because they like the subject and want to enthuse other people). <link>   

       You appear to have an over-idealistic** view of economics and human nature ...   

       *This is contingent on you having children, of course, and that means finding someone who wants to reproduce with you. We consider this highly unlikely.   

       **i.e. "idealistic in any way whatsoever". We suggest that you will benefit from a prolonged course of random, unjustified, violent beatings - to destroy your idealism and remove any faith in human nature, and instill cynicism and distrust, thus turning you into a greedy, selfish, twisted, resentful little misanthrope.
8th of 7, Oct 15 2020

       ... or into a saint, whom suffering has ennobled and suffused with compassion and wisdom. That is a known risk of the proposed process.
pertinax, Oct 15 2020

       Yes, but in that case the process (as we implement it) always rapidly proceeds to martyrdom, and dead people aren't usually so troublesome.
8th of 7, Oct 15 2020

       Sanguis martyrum semen ecclesiae, supposedly.
pertinax, Oct 15 2020

       Fine, saves all that back-and-to with the watering can ...
8th of 7, Oct 15 2020

       I am imagining a short story describing a travelling circus or funfair coming to town and setting up their stalls and amusements. The tradition in this alternate reality is that for the period of time the funfair is in town the land that it occupies is sovereign territory where the laws are different, and depraved, unusual acts are permitted. To enter the fenced-off enclosure is like entering a foreign country, at the edge of which, of course, is a "fair border control".
hippo, Oct 15 2020

       Actually, that sounds familiar - a plot in a sci-fi story, where a ship/fairground/circus hops from planet to planet, ostensibly selling "entertainment". Of course, it turns out to be a sinister plot.   

       It might be a Doctor Who story.   

       There's another one where passengers pay to be transported to an alien world so they can see the inhabitants. They are protected by reassuringly thick metal bars, and tough transparent panels.   

       What the passengers don't know is that the ship is also charging the aliens for peering in at these weird life-forms ... they feel safe, because thankfully they're protected by reassuringly thick metal bars, and tough transparent panels ...   

       That might be an Asimov story.
8th of 7, Oct 15 2020

       //That might be an Asimov story.//   

       Or just a story about someone going cage diving.
bs0u0155, Oct 15 2020

       It's the sum of all individuals and their requirement of money that gives emergent action of the whole monetary system. Like most things we we can think short term or long term. Just moving the decimal place on minimum wage isn't that intelligent for a species.   

       As for the idea, doesn't making more fences go against trying to get humanity working together? making the chance of greater country/state differentials. Money being the epitome of universal semantic value, it could be used better.
wjt, Oct 17 2020

       Yes it could be used better, but a surprising portion of our species belongs somewhere on the sociopath scale and that type finds it extremely easy to manipulate just about any system to their advantage and screw anyone who isn't licking their boot heels.
Now that cash money is going the way of the dinosaur these sociopaths will have even more control over others but even during the barter system "they" would still take as many of your chickens, eggs, pigs, sons for their armies and daughters for their brothels as they felt like.


       ...so what exactly are folks about to be completely subjugated to do about this added pressure on their supposedly 'free' lives?   

       That there is the 64,000 dollar question.   

       For myself?.. I've done my best over the last few decades to feel out and find a place that will be insulated from the coming shit-storm. I recommend you all do the same.
Until sociopaths are screened for and actively suppressed from entering politics they will continue to win the game of monopoly because they ensure they are the banker and don't mind cheating one whit.

       Wake me when you folks clue in to that.   

       The only fear "they" have is everyone waking the fuck up and acting in unison. No defence against that. As evidence I would point you towards looking into the Canadian gun registry debacle that didn't get a whole lot of press. (go figure)
Basically the citizens of Canada told our government to go pound salt when they implemented a gun registry with a price tag attached.

       We ignored them... minus 20%. No media hype whatsoever.   

       They came back with an amnesty for "offenders" and spent more of our money on propaganda.   

       We ignored them minus the same 20%.   

       They proposed legal action against non-conformers and came back with another amnesty... minus fees.
The 20% of conformers lost their minds and the rest of us said; "Maybe if you had started with that... otherwise go fuck yourselves", and ignored them.

       ...and then it just magically disappeared.   

Is the power of the people!

       Unanimous decisiveness without need for media.
I've got our slogan all figured out.

       [How about NO!]   

       How about that?... assholes.   

       What do you think?
Catchy? Isn't it?

       So [2fries] you don't want the government to know who is lives next to you and your loved ones, in your village,witth a Heckler & Koch MP5 and its ammunition in the basement? Peace of mind does have a cost. when nuttiness is a continuum.
wjt, Oct 18 2020

       Peace of mind comes from having your own G3 and ammunition, not from trusting the government with any information whatsoever.
8th of 7, Oct 18 2020

       // Peace of mind does have a cost. when nuttiness is a continuum.//   

       I just know that our government has the stupidity to dare try and tell us that none of us were allowed to defend ourselves in the bush without purchasing their permission.
We're on the edge of the great white north. We've got cougars, brown bears, black bears, grizzly bears, really ornery moose... even the badgers here will tear you a new one, and they had the balls to try and monetize our safety when heading into the back country.
Silly pencil pushers.
I believe in Minarchy. A government should have the absolute minimum authority over it's people. Their job is to maintain infrastructure, provide health care, be prepared to defend against attack to our country and the basic rights of those within it, and ensure that our kids receive a decent education on our dime.
That's it.
Finding novel ways to regulate and tax us to death is not in the job description.

       What we have instead are some of the highest taxes of any country, a failing health care system with wait times of years for some tests, the longest unprotected coastline on the planet, one of the weakest military forces, actively participating in the dumbing-down of north america and giving away billions of dollars in foreign aid.   

       Apparently we've all had quite enough of that and are learning how to say no en masse to any further stupidity.
So I still have my right to defend myself in the bush without their little scrap of paper allowing me to do so.

       It's a start.   

       Don't get me wrong, I understanding some guns are a needed tool in certain environments but guns have been made by a collective of human minds which have put a lot of resources into the engineering. We owe society as a whole for the knowledge and supply of these tools.   

       Some of these tools are even more highly engineered and have only one primary purpose, to kill humans. These are the type of guns individuals owe society the most for. Supply and privilege of use, at the very least should be paid through registration.   

       Why are there license plates on vehicles?
wjt, Oct 19 2020

       Yes, if you live in the wilderness and your house is occasionally attacked by packs of wolves, there's probably a need to have a gun. If you live in the suburbs and have a collection of shiny guns best suited for killing other people then you're just living out a dream, nicely expressed in a quote I picked up somewhere: "That’s the real fantasy of the gun – that you will someday be in a situation of complete moral clarity, rather than stuck in this muddy welter of decisions otherwise known as everyday life. There will be bad guys and good guys and you will know the difference".
hippo, Oct 19 2020

       // someday be in a situation of complete moral clarity //   


       Every day is like that, shrley ?   

       // Why are there license plates on vehicles? //   

       Primarily, tax collection.
8th of 7, Oct 19 2020

       //some guns are a needed tool in certain environments//   

       Such as dangerous environments, the woods/ ice/mountains of NW USA/ most of Canada /All of Alaska carry dangerous predators such as wolves and the bigger varieties of bear.   

       //Some of these tools are even more highly engineered and have only one primary purpose, to kill humans.//   

       Since humans are the all-time world-champions of being dangerous predators, living around high densities of them carries the same logic as the first example.
bs0u0155, Oct 19 2020

       Except that it doesn't. People might be bastards sometimes, but the least sensible thing to do when dealing with bastards, is give them guns. People forget that when you give everyone guns, you're handing them out to bastards too, raising the stakes, and additionally to bastards, you're making idiots far more lethal than they might otherwise have been. The thing with bastards, is they're fairly easy to spot. Meanwhile, idiots are everywhere, and to be honest, I'd much prefer to imagine the idiots I meet in the course of any given day not to be armed idiots. It's enough to drive anyone to gun ownership, no wonder the gun companies are so keen to preserve their ludicrous rhetoric out there in the public discourse. Sensibly, if you live in the country, by all means, carry something that carries a magazine of 5 tops - that would cover most situations - even allow bolt-action rifles. But anywhere urban, where the idiot ratio is likely to be higher, only allow black powder weapons, flintlocks, matchlocks etc - anything that takes a degree of prowess to charge, load and fire. Pistols should only ever be of this type, in both town and country, and sold either within intricately detailed marquetry boxes, or as is traditional for the seafaring community, in braces, subject to the recipient ending their every utterance in the phrase "me-hearties" or "yarrr".
zen_tom, Oct 19 2020

       What we could have is all the unregistered, heavy weapon welding people* living around the borders and, whether your rich or poor, if you make it through to a central registry with a standard government issue weapon**, your in.   

       *largely bastards and idiots. **Then again, money buys cheats.
wjt, Oct 24 2020

       //The thing with bastards, is they're fairly easy to spot//   

       I beg to differ. It is obvious to any given in-group that the out-group are the bastards, but equally vice versa.
pertinax, Oct 28 2020

       I think my use of the word bastards was in the context of [bs0u0155]'s //humans are the all-time world-champions of being dangerous predators// where rather than flatly ascribe the feature of dangerous predation to the entire human race, I make the assumption that the predation trait is distributed across the human population with a spectrum of intensity, the top nth percentile of which, you could safely label as "bastards". I think that's a very different thing to labeling in-groups and out-groups - but I suppose people do that also. And if people are apt to apply those kinds of labels, then there's even more reason to avoid handing out guns, you never know who's going to place you in their out-group and arbitrarily assign you a "bastard" - that may happen anyway, but it's less easy to graciously accept differences of opinion when the person doing the assigning is armed and sees you as the enemy.   

       Now idiots, that's an entirely different matter - and to be fair, is more than likely to overlap with in-group and out-group definitions.
zen_tom, Oct 28 2020

       Whether they will will admit to it or not, ALL humans divide the world into "ME" and "everyone else".   

       They may claim they don't, but subconsciously they always do. It's a necessary function of self-awareness and consciousness.
8th of 7, Oct 28 2020

       People who are insufficiently autistic are more likely to report a different experience. Simone de Beauvoir, for example, would have probably have been happier if she had been somewhat more autistic than she was: as it was, she implied* that, subjectively, she seemed not to exist if other people were not paying attention to her - contrary to [8th]'s assertion.   

       *somewhere near the end of Les Mandarins
pertinax, Oct 28 2020

8th of 7, Oct 28 2020

       //"Tautologies 'r Us."// - the full name of this organisation is "Tautologies 'R' Us, and We 'R' Tautologies"
hippo, Oct 28 2020

       Fatherlessness, more than almost any other social trait, makes a person less likely to succeed. Therefore the people with the most success are least likely to be bastards.*   

       *this statement is largely true but the person who points out the fallacy will win 1 (one) internet.**   

       **This statement is entirely true, and the person who points out the fallacy that would fallaciously be ascribed to it will also win an internet.
Voice, Oct 28 2020


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