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Magnetosensitivity in humans

Training / testing
  (+6)
(+6)
  [vote for,
against]

I was wondering if humans had any residual magnetic direction sensitivity from a long ago evolution branch. Some mammals are also reckoned to have the ability to navigate using the Earth's magnetic field.

The first step might be to increase sensitivity by training. The subject has other sensory input reduced/eliminated and is rotated gently and randomly. Every time they are looking North, they are informed by a small sound. This continues as much and often as possible.

Finally, with the same conditions, the subject is asked to indicate by pressing a switch when looking North. This is repeated many times to see if the result is random or not.

Ling, Jun 23 2016

All about chryptochrome http://blogs.discov...ields/#.V20hzHopDqA
[RayfordSteele, Jun 24 2016]

The James Randi Educational Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge has been terminated http://web.randi.or...llar-challenge.html
Day late... and a million short. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jun 25 2016, last modified Aug 15 2016]

Amazing Randi Paranormal Challenge https://en.wikipedi...aranormal_Challenge
Randi has said that few unsuccessful applicants ever seriously consider that their failure to perform might be due to the nonexistence of the power they believe they possess [bungston, Jun 25 2016]

Feelspace belt http://www.feelspace.de/navibelt/
Why wait for biology to get this extra sense? [AusCan531, Jun 25 2016]

//The pineal gland controls the circadian rhythms of even profoundly blind individuals// http://www.ncbi.nlm....gov/pubmed/1619000
Eew-aww. Bollock alert [MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 02 2016]

remote control sharks Shark_20Whistle
[bob, Jul 04 2016]

Help yourself, [lurch] http://www.paulhdea...g/PUBLICATIONS.html
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016]

heh http://imgur.com/gallery/cVUSD
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jul 08 2016]

Pineal calcification due to fluoride. http://meridianener...f-the-pineal-gland/
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jul 13 2016]

Social conformity. https://www.youtube...watch?v=AegLdB7UI4U
I'm the guy still sitting. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Sep 02 2016]

Magnetoreception in humans http://www.eneuro.o...ENEURO.0483-18.2019
alpha event-related desynchronization (alpha-ERD) [lurch, Mar 20 2019]

[link]






       In the last stage, administration of a painful electric shock or other distasteful stimulus will improve the test subject's focus on the task.
8th of 7, Jun 23 2016
  

       would this be (kinda) related?   

       when I was in my teens my parents had one of those old big clunky microwaves, on the other side of the wall it sat against was the hallway to the front door   

       I was sure I could feel a kind of pressure in my head when the microwave was on & could even "feel" it through that wall..   

       couldn't get either parent or my brother to switch it on & off while I stood in the hall calling out if I thought it was on or off to test the idea so no idea if I really could
Skewed, Jun 23 2016
  

       // I was sure I could feel a kind of pressure in my head when the microwave was on //   

       Mwahahahaha...my first victim.....come into my laboratory...
Ling, Jun 23 2016
  

       * logbook entry 1: South pole location is probably not the best idea. Move laboratory somewhere warmer.
Ling, Jun 23 2016
  

       // Finally, with the same conditions //   

       [holds up hand]   

       umm.. you know that small sound we were using during the training stage, I can still hear it, might that effect my latest 100% success test score?
Skewed, Jun 23 2016
  

       Haha... that's training for you. Ok, if you can still hear strange noises, I'll introduce you to some nice guys in white coats. They'll take care of you.
Ling, Jun 23 2016
  

       You might want to begin testing with us folks that can witch water.
I also don't use a compass in the bush. I haven't figured out yet though if that is just from picking up on subtle subconscious cues in plant growth and lay-of-the-land stuff or if it's a sense.
It 'feels' like a cord stretched back to where I was that I can re-trace.
  

       It is certainly worth spending the money to research... unless it's already been researched and suppressed, in which case, good luck. (+)   

       //unless it's already been researched and suppressed// Yes, because that would be both easy and an obvious thing to want to do. We have regular lab meetings to tell us what's being suppressed, which is fine because scientists are so very obedient.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 23 2016
  

       Correct me if I am wrong about this, but scientists are bound by the confidentiality agreements which they sign with whomever is funding their research are they not? ...and some breaches of confidentiality come with stiffer penalties than others correct?   

       I can't find any credible research on people being able to witch underground aquifers and yet I've both seen it done and can do so myself given a couple of lengths of coat-hanger.   

       It is too interesting a not to have been researched.
Where is the data?
  

       t'sall I'm asking   

       I figure that the results of these studies, (which have almost certainly been conducted) should be mine to examine by right of being able.
By what right are they withheld?
  

       //Correct me if I am wrong about this, but scientists are bound by the confidentiality agreements which they sign with whomever is funding their research are they not? ...and some breaches of confidentiality come with stiffer penalties than others do they not?//   

       Happy to correct you. You're wrong. At least no scientist I know in academia has had to do so. Commercial research is of course very different, but usually for remarkably dull reasons.   

       // I can't find any credible research on people being able to witch underground aquifers and yet I've both seen it done and can do so myself // Well, there is a remarkably large body of research on it, so I'm not sure where you've looked. If you look on PubMed (try "Dowsing" instead of "Witching"; and obviously ignore all the hits by authors called Dowsing), that would at least show you've made a small effort.   

       However, if by "witching" you mean "dowsing" then no, you haven't seen it done and no, you can't do it yourself.   

       Of course, lots of science _is_ suppressed. For instance, we've known for ages that you can cure cancer using a drawing pin and a magnet; but all cancer researchers have agreed to keep this secret. We'd like the big pharmas to keep making money, because they pay for all those Ferraris that most scientists drive these days.   

       We've also suppressed findings related to tangerines. We're not sure why, but someone told us to, and we all just do what we're told.   

       Fortunately, scientists are never interested in personal gain, fame or fortune: this is why it is so very easy to suppress things.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 23 2016
  

       It might be a novelty to Britain, but in countries where the sun is actually present, you can usually tell the direction.
RayfordSteele, Jun 23 2016
  

       One would think that the Brits ought to have better trained magnetoreceptivity, then. But I fear that would be wrong: it could be that the north is defined by an undetectably darker shade of grey and sound of bagpipes, but it remains unproven.
Ling, Jun 23 2016
  

       I find that I lose much of my directional sense when indoors of any largish building.
RayfordSteele, Jun 23 2016
  

       //However, if by "witching" you mean "dowsing" then no, you haven't seen it done and no, you can't do it yourself.//   

       Dowsing eh? Well I guess somebody had to have the vanity to name it after themselves...   

       I... I find it vexing to keep having things I've seen and know to be true not even questioned, just denied as given fact when I know better.   

       Yes, I have seen people witch water lines, and yes I have so done this myself.   

       Deal with it.   

       // findings related to tangerines. We're not sure why, //   

       Cold fusion. It's a stitch-up by the oil companies. Mr. Fusion generators run best on citrus fruit, and tangerines are the equivalent of high-octane.
8th of 7, Jun 24 2016
  

       [Skewed] If you thought the microwave was on, it may not have been. Microwaves only have one power setting, because that makes them more efficient. So whatever power setting they're set to, they actually switch on and off every few seconds to give an average power output over the total cooking time. At full power I think a modern microwave is actually off for about about half the cooking time. This allows heat to dissipate through the food from 'hotspots' caused by uneven distribution of microwave energy.
hippo, Jun 24 2016
  

       //Deal with it// Thanks, but I have no need to. I just don't believe it, and can deal with that instead. You don't need to deal with my disbelief either, of course.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 24 2016
  

       // I think a modern microwave is actually off for about about half the cooking time. //   

       You think incorrectly. Your unjustifiable violent beating will commence shortly.   

       A microwave oven on full power runs the magnetron continuously. For lower powers, it's gated on and off - the timescale is of the order of many seconds. This is because the supply is usually switched by a relay, which is cheap but can't take rapid switching.   

       It is, however, possible to gate a magnetron on very fast - radar does this - but it would require high power triacs with zero-crossing switching. Rather more expensive than a 50¢ relay.
8th of 7, Jun 24 2016
  

       <Rayford> interesting link. Maybe results would be more forthcoming with appropriate training.
Ling, Jun 24 2016
  

       // training //   

       Is it time to adminster the painful negative stimuli yet ? We have the cattle prod right here ...
8th of 7, Jun 24 2016
  

       I think that would probably boost sensitivity to high voltage fields instead. Better than driving people around in a bus.
Ling, Jun 24 2016
  

       <wonders aloud why 8th has a cattle prod but no cattle...>
RayfordSteele, Jun 24 2016
  

       //I just don't believe it, and can deal with that instead. You don't need to deal with my disbelief either, of course.//   

       Deal.
You drive a hard bargain Hoss.
  

       I gotta tell you though. It wasn't some side-show type person who showed me this trick but a landscaper who used two bent coat-hangers as a tool to map out underground water lines before digging into anyone's property. He'd hold these two rods in his pinky fingers pointing straight out and when he passed over a water line they would cross.
It worked for me too even with my eyes closed.
  

       'That' is a thing which should be documented.
Since I have both seen and done this thing which has been scientifically debunked... I already know that the propaganda surrounding this debunking is utter horseshit... and am happy to prove it.
  

       //He'd hold these two rods in his pinky fingers pointing straight out and when he passed over a water line they would cross//   

       If he knew where the water lines were, why did he bother with the dowsing?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 24 2016
  

       You never know where the water lines are buried on a property you didn't install. Even on one's you did.   

       I just know it worked... and yet it doesn't exist, just like a bunch of other shit I've seen and done that doesn't exist.   

       I figure that if you were in my shoes, you'd be calling bullshit too.   

       Wel then, how do you know the water lines were where he said they were?   

       But, to return to the earlier point, did you go on PubMed to look at those references?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 24 2016
  

       We would flag the lines and sometimes needed to expose them. If I recall correctly it worked for gas lines too.   

       I haven't had time to check references yet but it looks like I've go a free hour or so before anyone is home so I'll get right on that. Maybe you could link to the references you are referencing.
<little bit later>
Yeah, every hit I seem to find for dowsing + water on pubmed returns with a "no abstract" to check out. Perhaps I must pay them to see these.
  

       Try PubMed ID# 754193, "Anatomical localization of human detection of weak electromagnetic radiation: experiments with dowsers." Harvalik, ZV; Physiol Chem Phys. 1978;10(6):525-34.   

       It's got an abstract; let me know if you can't get the full article, I can go give it a try. I can often find the right trick to pull free articles out of the stack.
lurch, Jun 24 2016
  

       Interesting [lurch]. No, I can't seem to get the full article.
Wow, I was ten when that study was conducted.
Everything just keeps coming full circle back to this pineal gland business doesn't it?
  

       Future generations should not be limited by senses their predecessors do not possess.   

       I know it pisses me right off, I have no idea what effect it will have on them, but I'm betting their reaction will be, less... internalized than my own has been.   

       Sad really. Such squandered potential.   

       I have seen pigeons navigating their way home by some mechanism, but I have never seen them find water with dowsing rods.
Ling, Jun 25 2016
  

       // <wonders aloud why 8th has a cattle prod but no cattle...> //   

       I concur, 8th seems to be more of a taser mind set.
Ling, Jun 25 2016
  

       // If I recall correctly it worked for gas lines too. //   

       Ah, right. So, not one but two different senses - one for water and one for polypropylene. Isn't pre- emptive evolution wonderful?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2016
  

       // 8th seems to be more of a taser mind set //   

       Cattle prod seems more likely to me - a sturdily built cattle pod can make a serviceable billy club when the charge runs out & looks far nicer with a pair of nice shiny jackboots   

       he probably has both though
Skewed, Jun 25 2016
  

       // I have seen pigeons navigating their way home // // but I have never seen them find water with dowsing rods //   

       That's only because they've no hands to hold them, with a suitable harness to hold the rods they could be a godsend in parched areas
Skewed, Jun 25 2016
  

       Some of the Dorkbot gang have had tiny magnets surgically implanted in their hands. With the 'sixth sense' they're capable of sensing interesting things..
Steamboat, Jun 25 2016
  

       //So, not one but two different senses - one for water and one for polypropylene//   

       It would seem to work with fluids in general. Not two senses at all, just adaptations of the same extra sense... which I happen to have been born with.   

       Demonstratable and reproducible, yet my abilities don't exist in this cozy little society of folks with their eyes shut tight and with their fingers shoved in their ears.   

       "Grab your torches and pitchforks! Burn the witch!"   

       Might be about time y'all had your filters removed.
I think that it would be best for all concerned if those filters were removed voluntarily rather than by force.
  

       Would anyone care for some more fluoride?
No need to take your fingers out of your ears, we've provided this handy straw to make it easier for you.
  

       The Amazing Randi had a standing $ offer to anyone who could demonstrate dowsing ability. Lets see if I can link this up. I saw Randi in a parade last year. 2 fries if your water witchery is in good shape maybe you should claim that prize.
bungston, Jun 25 2016
  

       Doh! [link]   

       Day late, and a million short.   

       // Would anyone care for some more fluoride?// Are you crazy? Don't you know the Gubment puts it in water for mind control, because of Reasons? They want to block your dowsing capabilities, because of the obvious implications for National Security.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 25 2016
  

       Someone has created an artificial way to sense North [link].
AusCan531, Jun 25 2016
  

       ^ Ah, artificial extra senses. Yes that might help ease the transition.   

       // Are you crazy? Don't you know the Gubment puts it in water for mind control, because of Reasons?//   

       Fuck the gubment.   

       What is the level of fluoride overdose before it's effects are detrimental?
How many types of fluoride are there?
Which of those types are introduced to public water supplies?
What food and drug regulations are in place to ensure public safety in this regard?
Which food groups contain the most fluoride?
Would it surprise you to learn that those foods are soda-pop and pablum?
How much fluoride does it take to overdose an infant?
Are the parents of small children given informed consent before their dental hygienists open micro wounds at the gum-line allowing their children to have a fifteen minute fluoride "treatment" every few months introduced directly into their blood-stream nice and close to the brain so that it can collect in their child's pineal gland causing its premature calcification and a cascade effect of their child's entire endocrine system which is asymptomatic for each individual and so misdiagnosed by a majority of the fucking medical establishment unless they happen to have a background in psychoneuroendocrinology?
  

       ...and if not,
...why not?
  

       Yes, you're absolutely right, [2fries]. And of course there's a great reason why the gubment wants to do this, as I'm sure you'll explain.   

       Unless, of course, they've got to you too. It's possible that you're a CIA plant, here to distract us from the real issue of Area 54.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 26 2016
  

       Yay! Junior high school bully tactics. "Please sir, could I have some more?..."   

       No [Max] I don't have answers, just questions that make people want to stick their fingers further into their ears and shut their eyes tighter... like you're doing.   

       Our Gubments are corrupt and in need of an extensive overhaul, but we should probably look into why there is a percentage of kids under five with calcified pineal glands before we tackle that problem.   

       //Our Gubments are corrupt and in need of an extensive overhaul.//   

       There ya go - I knew there'd be something we agreed on.   

       The main difference is that you believe that your corrupt gubment is suppressing your ability to dowse for gas lines by feeding you fluoride, and developing sophisticated mind-control and flying saucers.   

       I, on the other hand, believe that my corrupt gubment is lining its own pockets and couldn't suppress a fart (or 'trump' as they're called here).   

       When in doubt, incompetence is always a safer bet than malicious cleverness.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 26 2016
  

       ...but before we check into the calcified pineal glands of five year olds, we should probably investigate why there are a percentage of kids under the age of two with prematurely calcified pineal glands.   

       ...and the increasing cases of precocious puberty in our societies.   

       ...and the fact that osteoporosis doesn't exists in the animal kingdom unless induced by pinealectomy.   

       "Then" we can work on politicians on the take.   

       Just how much fluoride do your kids injest?
Any clue?
  

       //prematurely calcified pineal glands// Ah yes, that well-known phenomenon. It's probably a communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.   

       //increasing cases of precocious puberty in our societies// Yes, well, obviously the gubment is doing this, because [insert reason here]. They try to cover it up as being due to better nutrition and childhood obesity, but we know better. Now, what were those reasons?   

       //and the fact that osteoporosis doesn't exists in the animal kingdom// actually, it exists in horses, elephants, and most of the great apes if they reach old age. But that's not important, of course. What's more important is the reason the gubment wants us all to get osteoporosis.   

       //Just how much fluoride do your kids injest?// Was that "inject", "in jest" or "ingest"? We use fluoridated toothpaste, which is partly responsible for the dramatic decline in dental caries over the last couple of decades, at least here in the UK.   

       But enough of this trifling talk. You were about to explain exactly why the gubment wants our teeth to undergo premature puberty and develop osteoporosis, and I interrupted you. Floor's yours, bud. Sock it to us.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 26 2016
  

       Was I?   

       I keep talking about the pineal gland, 'you' keep bringing up the government as a distraction tactic, not me.
If you could stop bringing them up maybe we could discuss magnetosensitivity in humans like the author intended instead of browbeating me over the words you are putting in my mouth.
  

       We had to fight to get fluoride taken out of our drinking water supplies here.
The dosage was set in the 1940's at 1mg/day, presuming that the average person drinking four glasses of water a day could obtain this "optimal" dose. This has now been lowered to 0.07 mg/day. Some infant formula contains more than the old optimal dose per serving. I've no idea why this would be allowed.
  

       This all started when you flat out called me a liar for claiming to be able to witch water, which is true.
Since I know that this is true, it would appear to tie in with many of my other abnormalities which all seem to revolve around being born with an enlarged pineal gland, delaying my puberty until twenty, and allowing me to sense and do things that a majority of people don't seem to be able to sense and do.
  

       It seemed to be on topic.   

       How does premature puberty caused by this pineal calcification (is that even a thing?) relate to your delayed puberty? I thought it was all about precocious puberty?   

       And no, I didn't call you a liar over your claim to be able to witch (dowse?) water. I simply said that you could not witch water, which is the case. That's not quite the same thing.   

       You seem to have many superpowers yet, despite these or because of them, things have not worked out brilliantly. And you believe that the government wants to suppress these and many other things, and to cover up yet more things, despite their manifest inability to conceal a 5-minute blow-job in the Oval Office*. I have yet to hear a convincing reason as to why they would want to do this**, but I am sure a reason is not really necessary.   

       Let me be frank, here. I think you're a complete and utter whacko (unless you're doing this stuff just for our mutual entertainment, which I don't think is the case but could be). I feel I should be honest in telling you that. I bear you no ill-will as a result, and I am sure the reverse is true. As the manufacturers of Licorice Allsorts so wisely tell us, it takes all sorts.   

       I also enjoy our periodic discussions here - they are invigorating. All the more so because, of course, there is no prospect of the matter being resolved in either direction. I don't consider it bullying, since we are both equally eloquent and, at least on the internet, equally big.   

       However, as you rightly pointed out, the original topic here was human magnetoception. It has been investigated quite extensively, but if it exists it is quite weak and perhaps varies from person to person.   

       If it does exist, it probably uses the same mechanisms found in birds. It's quite a cool system, which seems to work by the effect of a very weak magnetic field on a triplet state of a molecule called cryptochrome, and thence on its chemical interactions with other molecules. For it to work, the cryptochrome has to be excited by light; so, if you transport pigeons in a completely dark box, they can't monitor the magnetic field, and therefore can't navigate home very well. If they have light (even a lightbulb) while they're being transported, then the light-excited cryptochrome can respond to the magnetic field, and they can map their way out (and hence back).   

       As far as I know, the government has never particularly tried to suppress research into human magnetoception, and it's hard to figure out why they would. The field was pretty dormant for a long time, until the mechanism behind magnetoception in birds was figured out.   

       It's also interesting to note that fruit-flies can sense magnetic fields, using the same mechanism. If you knock out their own cryptochrome they lose the ability; but if you replace it with either avian or human equivalents, they regain the ability. So, we at least have one of the molecules needed for magnetoception; and we may or may not have vestiges of the other machinery needed to make it work.   

       (* It may have been less - I don't know Mr. Clinton that well.)   

       (**i.e. to conceal or suppress these things; obviously the blow job was a good idea at the time.)
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 26 2016
  

       // I thought it was you who raised the pineal gland and its calcification? But perhaps I'm wrong. And how does premature puberty caused by this calcification relate to your delayed puberty? //   

       I did bring up the pineal gland. It was cited as a possible center for the sense being used to "dowse" underground water for the fourteen confirmed cases in [lurch]'s PubMed address.   

       My delayed puberty was not caused by pineal calcification but by its opposite, hypermalatoninism.   

       We can keep humans prepubescent indefinitely as long as melatonin levels don't drop below those of a child. They are using this therapy to keep transgender children prepubescent until their age of consent before undergoing surgery so that their hormones align with gender choice post op.   

       I did 'not' bring up the gubment. That's all you.   

       //And no, I didn't call you a liar over your claim to be able to witch (dowse?) water. I merely said that you could not witch water. That's not quite the same thing.//   

       Same shit, different pile.   

       // You seem to have many superpowers yet, despite these or because of them, things have not worked out brilliantly. And you believe that the government wants to suppress these and many other things, and to cover up yet more things, despite their manifest inability to conceal a 5-minute blow-job in the Oval Office*. I have yet to hear a convincing reason as to why they would want to do this**, but I am sure a reason is not really necessary. //   

       Not super powers, just differences from the norm, and I resent being left behind educationally while coming to terms with unfiltered perception with no teacher. Getting kicked out into the adult world prepubescent and uneducated was no picnic either... all because the pineal gland and its effects on the human endocrine system wasn't taught to the general medical practitioners at the time.
Is it taught to them now?
  

       You're bringing up the government again and telling me what I think.
Please stop that. It's rude.
  

       //Let me be frank, here. I think you're a complete and utter whacko (unless you're doing this stuff just for our mutual entertainment, which I don't think is the case but could be). I feel I should be honest in telling you that. I bear you no ill-will as a result, and I am sure the reverse is true. As the manufacturers of Licorice Allsorts so wisely tell us, it takes all sorts.//   

       I'll be frank as well then.
I bear you no ill will. I'm one of the most easy going guys you'd meet.
I'm also extremely envious of your education and my lack thereof makes me defensive to begin with. Finding out so late in life that intellectuals are my group of choice, (who knew?), makes me feel vastly inferior. You don't seem to have any trouble keeping me on the defensive with your proclamations and twisting that knife while professing no ill will.
I both like and respect you and think this behaviour beneath you.
  

       // I also enjoy our periodic discussions here - they are invigorating. All the more so because, of course, there is no prospect of the matter being resolved in either direction. I don't consider it bullying, since we are both equally eloquent and, at least on the internet, equally big. //   

       I would enjoy them more if my words were given the slightest benefit of the doubt.
There is no doubt in your mind that what I claim is false... and so there is no benefit to be had from that on my end.
  

       You don't listen. You berate.   

       Every claim I have made on this site is true.
Yes I realise how improbable that is. Try living it and staying sane in our modern society. The chip on my shoulder is massive as it is for a good reason. I've had to fight tooth and nail to keep my psyche intact while being able to perceive things nobody I've met seems to be able to perceive, and as big as you are you're not likely to dislodge it with your skepticism.
  

       I can't do much about that other than keep telling it like it is, but I can assure you that amusing you with the truth of my reality is not a priority.   

       // However, as you rightly pointed out, the original topic here was human magnetoception. It has been investigated quite extensively, but if it exists it is quite weak and perhaps varies from person to person.   

       If it does exist, it probably uses the same mechanisms found in birds. It's quite a cool system, which seems to work by the effect of a very weak magnetic field on a triplet state of a molecule called cryptochrome, and thence on its chemical interactions with other molecules. For it to work, the cryptochrome has to be excited by light; so, if you transport pigeons in a completely dark box, they can't monitor the magnetic field, and therefore can't navigate home very well. If they have light (even a lightbulb) while they're being transported, then the light-excited cryptochrome can respond to the magnetic field, and they can map their way out (and hence back).   

       As far as I know, the government has never particularly tried to suppress research into human magnetoception, and it's hard to figure out why they would. The field was pretty dormant for a long time, until the mechanism behind magnetoception in birds was figured out.//   

       That was kinda my point before we diverged off on the whole government conspiracy tangent.   

       The pineal gland is light sensitive which means that any electro magnetic sense a human being might possibly have would be housed there. Being born with an enlarged gland might very well account for sensing waves not normally perceived by a majority of the population.   

       You gotta cut me some slack guv. I'm an uneducated guy trying to self diagnose shit the doctors themselves haven't been taught and I work by intuition, (another non-existent male trait).   

       I figure I'm doing one hell of a lot better than you would have in my shoes... and I can't help but wonder how well I would have done in yours.   

       If I may throw in a bit of a 3rd party perspective:   

       2 fries, be less self-absorbed and people won't actively try and pry the chip off. Explore other people's weirdness.   

       Max, you do have a tendency to come off as an arrogant know-it-all at times. Don't worry, it's a common trait here, one that I've been accused of as well. Magneto sensitivity may or may not be a thing. Jury's out. I'm remaining more skeptical of dowsing but that's just me.   

       If I were a drinking person I'd have a beer with either of you.   

       Incidentally I do better at corn mazes without a map, and have a pretty good sense of direction. What environmental clues I might be using to do that I haven't paid that much attention to.
RayfordSteele, Jun 26 2016
  

       [-2fries] - will try county library Monday a.m.   

       I was always very proud of my sense of direction. I just always knew which way was north; I thought anybody that could get lost just had to be dumb. Until I found a place where it didn't work.   

       That first place was Caineville, Utah. I went there to help haul hay on a relative's farm. I think I fell asleep on the trip down; we got there pretty late. Woke up the next morning, and the sun came up in the south. It was the weirdest feeling - I was wrong, I could tell I was wrong, but the body-compass was firmly fixed so that "north" points due east.   

       No matter how I try (and it's been at least a hundred occasions over the past 40 years) I haven't been able to fix the self-compass. I've even walked the last 5 miles with both compass and GPS and found the spot where my perception diverges from reality - there's a 45 degree bend in the road, and my internal compass turns 135 degrees going around it - but (it seems to me, anyway) whatever internal sensor I have locks into first impressions of geography. They then become indelible. I just have to apply a conscious correction whenever I'm there.   

       I think the light-sensing that you mentioned sounds very likely, given other places and situations where I've gotten messed up. Osaka, Japan turns me around just a bit more than 90 degrees the other way - my north points real west-south-west there (my first time there, I rode the Shinkansen, northbound, facing backward, and going through all those crazy tunnels) - and Telluride, Colorado flips me around almost precisely backward (that trip involved eight college students in a station wagon in a blizzard - and if I hadn't had a crush on one of them, I swear I damn well would have let them out to walk the last 25 miles).   

       Nowadays I find I can lose it just walking through a shopping mall. I hate living in the city. Artificial lights are damned liars.
lurch, Jun 27 2016
  

       Well, [2fries], all fair and well enough.   

       To address the facts first: dowsing was invented in the 1400's or 1500's as a way to find metals - it's not some ancient art. The idea that it would work for water came later. Your suggestion that it works for "fluids" including gases takes it further, and I wonder how you pick out a 2-inch gas pipe given that there are a few feet of fluid between you and it anyway. Dowsing has been very extensively tested; in most cases, the "dowsers" reported themselves as being very confident of their abilities. In all cases, they failed completely. Many of them, presumably, were honestly confident in their abilities - that is the difference between lying and being wrong.   

       In short, I am utterly confident that dowsing does not work. It is simply not a thing.   

       Now on to more interesting things. Yes, I do berate and argue viciously. It is my vice. I am the same (in suitable circumstances) about astrology, alien abductions, religion and precognition. In part, this comes from believers in those things making accusations about people like me (scientists) - such as the accusation that scientists have never tested "dowsers"; that we sign //confidentiality agreements// to //suppress// certain areas of research; that we have "closed minds", and so forth. Science has generally bent over backwards to test these claims, at its own expense, and I at least find such comments deeply insulting. Perhaps you don't realize that making those comments about science and scientists can be as offensive to scientists as mine are to you.   

       As [Rayford] pointed out, I do indeed come across as arrogant. In fact, I would go further and say that I _am_ arrogant on this type of topic. But, as I mentioned, this particular type of topic is my vice.   

       Finally, to return to magnetoception in humans. It definitely exists in some animals; we think we understand the mechanism behind it; humans have at least some of the components necessary for it; so far, it has not been shown convincingly that humans have this sense; but it is within the bounds of plausibility and would be very cool if it were the case.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 27 2016
  

       Your vice... my life.   

       Thanks [lurch] I would appreciate that. I am very interested.   

       //Your vice... my life. //   

       And not mine?? I have spent my life as a scientist, you have spent your life as you. In your discussions in various ideas here, you request that I and others disregard what we understand (which is fine - it is always good to consider extreme possibilities), and then invariably imply that science has either suppressed or disregarded your unusual abilities; and that there is some sort of conspiracy to do so; and that we and our opinions can be bought on a global scale.   

       I find _that_ as offensive as you find my comments.   

       I was quite careful _not_ to call you a liar regarding your unique ability to dowse/witch. I believe that you believe you can do so. Yet you repeatedly imply that scientists are, as a profession, liars and suppressors of the truth.   

       So, maybe your life. Mine too, chum.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 28 2016
  

       Based on [2 fries]' link to the PubMed article in the 'So you think you're a psychic?' idea, it would appear that the discussion of pineal involvement is only half of the story. The study also claims that kidneys must be involved.   

       I wonder: is this the origin of the quaint Appalachian saying 'I feels it in my water'?   

       Perhaps a small percentage of humans (and other critters) possess both an enlarged pineal gland AND the renal sensitivity (and maybe some magnosensitivity apparatus) required for the feedback loop...it's starting to sound all Vagus nerve-y, too.   

       [Max], send the research funds to my post box in Canada, c/o Sgt Teacup, Outlier Performance Assessment Office.
Sgt Teacup, Jun 28 2016
  

       [MB] I am guilty as charged... to greater and lesser degrees... just not on this thread. Semantics really.   

       ...and I've got no beef with science. serfdom on the other hand...   

       ...anyway, I would just as soon discuss it with you further with fewer beers under my belt.   

       So good-day to you sir. I'm off to bed.   

       // I have spent my life as a scientist, you have spent your life as you. In your discussions in various ideas here, you request that I and others disregard what we understand (which is fine - it is always good to consider extreme possibilities), and then invariably imply that science has either suppressed or disregarded your unusual abilities; and that there is some sort of conspiracy to do so; and that we and our opinions can be bought on a global scale.   

       I find _that_ as offensive as you find my comments.//   

       It is true I have asked everyone to suspend their disbelief. I think it's necessary in order to be able to understand since I was given no words to go with whatever I went through I have no definitions for any of it.
Without suspending disbelief it will not be possible to even imagine the possibility that I'm not full of shit.
  

       I don't really have the option of not listening to my gut like most people seem to be able to do. My intuition and gut-feelings were what I was left to work with so those are the things I developed.
I can ignore my gut, but that has pretty much always led to disaster. It is connected to my subconscious mind and my subconscious mind knows things my conscious mind does not.
  

       I don't think that it is 'my' abilities being supressed, I think that it is human abilities in general being suppressed, but not by science.   

       I like science, but I think that research seeming to support claims which are paranormal are buried and that scientists wishing to explore them are either denied funding or outright blackballed into pursuing other things.   

       So while you and you individual opinions may not have been bought on a global scale, your time and energies certainly have been since you've got to do what your bosses tell you to do just like the rest of us.   

       See, I've "actually" seen dowsing and done this thing myself. It was a neat trick, but absolutely nothing compared to some of the things I've seen. I linked to a peer reviewed publication from a credible source confirming proof of this ability in humans and yet no doubt at all exists that I am wrong about this.
If this one tiny little spark of the gift is enough to make you go all "pistols-at-dawn" on my ass, then any further claims would surely have you lighting my pyre.
  

       It makes discussion of a topic extremely difficult when my words get me attacked and placed on the defensive from the get-go.   

       You used the word vice to mean habit, but the image that popped into my head was that of my life getting squashed within a vice. So "Your vice...my life", was probably a bad choice of words, yet somehow seem totally appropriate.   

       See, everything I've told you is true, and its kind of hard to explain anything while fending off attack.   

       //your time and energies certainly have been since you've got to do what your bosses tell you to do just like the rest of us.//   

       Actually, I have very rarely been told what to do - what to research - in my career. At the moment, I have no boss (I am my own boss, so to speak). When I did have bosses, their only requirement was that I do something ambitious and/or cool. If there had been the faintest prospect of discovering something that fundamentally overturned what we know, they would have wished me well and told me to go for it.   

       And the bosses I have had, have themselves very rarely been told what to do. Perhaps you don't know many good scientists very well.   

       As for blackballing, there are only a couple of common reasons why it can happen, at least in good labs (which tend to be the least conservative). The first is data fabrication, obviously. The second is flogging a very dead horse.   

       If "dowsing" were "discovered" today, there would be a reasonable amount of funding for research into it, because it would represent a possible new and unexplained sense. The enthusiasm for finding something new would be balanced against skepticism, but the research would be funded and would get done.   

       If the research (I mean real research - double-blind trials etc) found there was something there, money would pour into the field - imagine, a new sense! Think of the possibilities, both scientific and commercial! It would be immense!   

       If, however, the research showed that there was nothing there - for example, that large numbers of people who were confident of their dowsing abilities did not, in fact, have those abilities - then funding would dry up. There's only so much time and effort you can waste if it turns out to be a wild goose chase.   

       Scientists are happy to look carefully and with open minds. If they do good science, they can tell if there's anything there. If they are first to show there _is_ something there, that's pretty much their dream.   

       For dowsing, it's been done. There's nothing there. So, in persisting, you are asking us to believe that of all the people who claim to be able to dowse, only you have the ability.   

       It's possible, but given what we've found so far it makes no sense to waste more time, money and effort on debunking it again, and again.   

       If there's any reality to this, fine, it'll emerge eventually, despite the incredulity of everyone. So that's fine. Just like if there's anything in cold fusion, sooner or later it'll come out. Just don't complain about not having been given a fair crack at it. Go and dowse some underground water in a place where people are dying of thirst - that sort of thing gets attention.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 29 2016
  

       In fact, I'll make you a deal, [2fries]. You and I will figure out a test of dowsing which (a) you think is fair and (b) would convince me. You come here, do the test. If you pass the agreed test, I will pay your travel and accommodation tests PLUS £10,000 in hard cash. Or if you prefer I will donate £10,000 to your favourite charity.   

       If you fail the agreed test, you go back home - you're out of pocket by your travel expenses, but you won't owe me anything at all.   

       How's that? If you want to discuss this offline (though online would be more fun), my email address is on my profile page.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 29 2016
  

       Did you even look at the link about dowsing? Some humans have already shown to be able to detect electromagnetism.   

       If you get to pick and choose your own projects indiscriminately I think that's great.
what do you think they'd say if you wanted to pursue a project looking into the pineal glands role in the human production of dymethyltryptamine and its relation to visual snow?
I know of a willing test subject with an enlarged pineal gland you could probably talk into participating.
You could even write up the proposal as a lark just to see what the reaction would be...
  

       If life doesn't chuck too many kicks to the teeth my way in the coming year we've tentatively planned a family trip to the UK next summer.   

       Keep your money.   

       // Some humans have already shown to be able to detect electromagnetism. //   

       This is correct. Experimentation has shown wavelength-specific sensitivity to E-M radiation in the 400 to 800 nm band, and more generalized surface detection in the 1000 - 2000 nm band.
8th of 7, Jun 29 2016
  

       //Did you even look at the link about dowsing?// Which link? The Randi link isn't the one you mean, I'm assuming.   

       And yes, as noted, humans can detect electromagnetic radiation (light, heat; and if someone tells me they can feel the low-frequency EM from power lines, I would not dismiss it out of hand). And as I mentioned, it's plausible that humans can detect static magnetic fields.   

       //pineal glands role in the human production of dymethyltryptamine and its relation to visual snow?//   

       I know nothing much about endocrinology, but apparently the pineal gland does produce or contain DMT (at least in rodents). And since it's neuroactive, it's not unreasonable that it could impact vision.   

       // a family trip to the UK next summer. // Do you know when, approximately?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 30 2016
  

       Presumably, when the ambient temperature rises above an average 22 C. Below that, scaly reptiles become noticeably torpid ...
8th of 7, Jun 30 2016
  

       // when the ambient temperature rises above an average 22 C// Ah. Counting on global warming, then?   

       //Keep your money.//   

       So, to be clear, you're saying that scientists disregard or dismiss the possibility of dowsing out of hand; and that you can dowse. Yet, when a scientist (I could show you the paperwork) offers you the chance to show that you can dowse, under conditions to be agreed by you; and to pay not only your expenses but £10,000 if you succeed; and asks for nothing in return if you fail - you decline the invitation.   

       Can I ask why?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 30 2016
  

       [-2fries], I've checked Ebsco, PubMed Central, Medline, and my county library; no luck yet. Not certain when I'll get to the University, will let you know.
lurch, Jun 30 2016
  

       [lurch] if you do get a copy, I'd also be interested to see it.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jun 30 2016
  

       // Counting on global warming, then? //   

       More like hoping for an ice age...
8th of 7, Jun 30 2016
  

       oy...   

       //Did you even look at the link about dowsing?// Which link?//   

       On the idea you posted to make fun of me, "So You Think You're A Psychic."   

       // I know nothing much about endocrinology, but apparently the pineal gland does produce or contain DMT (at least in rodents). And since it's neuroactive, it's not unreasonable that it could impact vision. //   

       Try explaining that to your teachers at ten years old.   

       // a family trip to the UK next summer. Do you know when, approximately?//   

       My daughter will be graduating high school, (first of her bloodline to do so, <pat's own... and her mothers' back>) and has her heart set on seeing England, France, Germany etc... all the old architecture and get all worldly and such, so her mother and I started squirreling away money for the trip last year. I think we've probably got a couple grand set aside so far. No idea when, or if the nest-egg might evaporate in a single downfall.
Y'know... life's what happens when you're making other plans and all that.
  

       // So, to be clear, you're saying that scientists disregard or dismiss the possibility of dowsing out of hand; and that you can dowse. Yet, when a scientist (I could show you the paperwork) offers you the chance to show that you can dowse, under conditions to be agreed by you; and to pay not only your expenses but £10,000 if you succeed; and asks for nothing in return if you fail - you decline the invitation.   

       Can I ask why?//   

       I haven't declined the invitation. I just don't want your money. You can set up whatever tests that you think will get people to stop squishing kids going through what I did, and I'm all yours. Free of charge.
I hope to meet you and as many halfbakers from the area who can possibly show up... I challenge anyone to commute farther than I have to do so though, muhahahahaha.
  

       Thanks lurch. It Is pretty cool isn't it?   

       //On the idea you posted to make fun of me, "So You Think You're A Psychic." //   

       Ah, right. I presume you've got a copy of that one - can you email it to me? I would be interested to read it. And apologies for the fun-making.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 01 2016
  

       [Ian] If you mean magnetic sense, it's unlikely to be related to balance. As far as we know, every organism that senses magnetism (at least every multicellular organism) uses the cryptochrome/triplet-state mechanism, which is more closely allied to vision.   

       I agree it would make more "sense" to have something like a compass needle, and that that needle would be related to the otoliths used for balance. But the observation is that that isn't the case.   

       [2fries] (a) If you've got a copy of that paper, please email me (PDF or whatever), as I would be interested. (b) When you visit the UK, and assuming we can meet up, what sort of test of dowsing would you consider fair and doable?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 01 2016
  

       No worries. My hide is pretty tough and I totally understand. I wouldn't believe my shit either if I hadn't lived it.
The kids that are coming that are like me are not going to be able to take it though. They... they just won't, and if they are compressed to the point of exploding then that weirdness is going to erupt in places you can't predict.
  

       The weird stuff I've seen comes in spurts, so my life has been as boring a thing as you can possibly imagine interspersed with, completely random off-the-chart bizarreness. That's why I kind of laugh when you bring up paranoia. If there are people being paid to watch me... then they must be going out of their minds waiting for something... ANYTHING, to happen in my boring little life and it makes me chuckle.
It's been 99.99% boring... and .01% cool stuff.
  

       Ha! If I am being watched, I sure hope they brought pillows...   

       The cool stuff I've seen with other people I trust. The cool stuff I've seen alone just makes me doubt my sanity.
I figure that doubting it must be a good sign since everyone else I've ever seen slip into madness has absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they're fine.
I've been doubting mine daily for over forty years now.
Yay, the super power nobdy ever gets to see.
  

       It's funny, right? It's gotta be funny 'cause the alternative is tears, and ain't nobody got time for that shit.   

       I much prefer the boring parts of life.
The bizarre parts are, taxing.
For the longest time I just wanted to be like everybody else... but I'm not, and I'm alright with that.
I just get a little ornery when I feel backed into a corner and lash out because that's my conditioned response. Too many communal school shower episodes with entire junior hockey teams whipping towels.
I need to work on that.
  

       I have no need to lie to any of you for attention though. I've spent my life trying to avoid attention since it has usually come with an ass-kicking attached.
I just refuse to not be myself here. I want to be friends and if you can't be yourself around friends... then what's the point?
  

       I can't get you a transcript of that paper because [lurch] hasn't tracked it down yet.   

       Hell, I couldn't even find a copy of the abstract itself. I really wasn't kidding you when I said that information about the pineal gland and its weirdness is disappearing... at least from public view.   

       I think it's been going on for a while now.   

       If the abstract doesn't suddenly show up as debunked then the point of whether I can dowse water or not is sort of moot, and honestly it is just something I saw some guy do like thirty years ago and then did myself a few times that summer... and then never did it again.
I've never had to. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a puddle in Canada. It was just something neat that I socked away in case it ever came in handy. I have no idea if it would still work now, or what metal was used to make the coat-hangers back then, or what plastic was in the pipes... none of it.
I just know what I saw and what I did back then isn't a false memory because I wasn't alone.
  

       I would much prefer if you could test the pineal related claims I've made which can be clinically verified. It's like "literally" a light sensitive third eyeball in your head. Doesn't it make sense that some folks are able to receive information from this gland/organ while others are not?   

       Sounds to me like something which should have been tested up the whazoo by now.   

       ...but I can't find the info.   

       Maybe it just hasn't been researched yet, this only spot in the entire brain that is singular and on this side of the blood/brain barrier where it can be chemically affected and is physically tied to the responses of the rest of the entire human endocrine system, yet thought to be disposable... like tonsils or an appendix.   

       If dowsing ends up being no longer an issue with you I would opt for an FMRI scan.   

       You have access to these machines yes?
I'm pretty sure that by going to that place in my head where the ideas are I could light that puppy up like a Christmas tree.
  

       // I couldn't even find a copy of the abstract itself. I really wasn't kidding you when I said that information about the pineal gland and its weirdness is disappearing... at least from public view.//   

       If you mean that Harvalik reference, the abstract is in your own link.   

       As for other scientific publications disappearing - not really. If anything, it's going the other way, with more journals going open-access. Also, more research institutions now require their scientists to publish only in open- access journals (or to pay to release their publications as open access).   

       This is a good thing - I hate the old model whereby even publicly-funded research is pay-per-view.   

       When you encounter a topic that only has a handful of publications several years old, it usually means that it turned out to be a red herring. In the case of dowsing, it makes a few appearances in bona-fide journals a few decades ago; then there are a few publications where it's tested properly and gave negative results; then no more publications in bona-fide journals. If somebody says "I've got a unicorn in this box!", everyone will rush to look. If somebody says it again, people will come back for a second look. But after a few times, people will stop looking - there isn't enough time to look in empty box more than a few times.   

       Also, if you find a few negative-result publications, that generally means that there are a lot more studies that gave negative results, but never got published. Most journals are reluctant to publish negative results (arguably a bad thing, since they are important).   

       Most of these topics, having flared up briefly in the normal journals, eventually move on to the fringe publications. These are either journals with a clear penchant for this stuff (for example, Harvalik published most of his stuff in the journal of the American dowsing society - of which he is or was president, I think) aimed at the popular market; or the new wave of so-called "predatory journals" which sound plausible but exist only to extract publication fees from authors, and generally aren't peer-reviewed. This is becoming an increasing problem.   

       Can't help with your pineal gland. First of all, I haven't a clue about endocrinology. Second, I don't have an FMRI scanner (at least, not last time I checked). I do believe (I haven't read up on it) that the pineal organ has some connection to the optic nerves. But if light is hitting your pineal gland directly, you probably ought to check for unexpected holes in your head.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 02 2016
  

       // If you mean that Harvalik reference, the abstract is in your own link //   

       [lurch] found that I just linked to the address he provided earlier.   

       // Can't help with your pineal gland. First of all, I haven't a clue about endocrinology. Second, I don't have an FMRI scanner (at least, not last time I checked). I do believe (I haven't read up on it) that the pineal organ has some connection to the optic nerves. But if light is hitting your pineal gland directly, you probably ought to check for unexpected holes in your head. //   

       Yeah, that was a long shot.   

       The pineal gland controls the circadian rhythms of even profoundly blind individuals and in many species can be seen through their skulls.
It secretes melatonin, serotonin, tryptophan, and dimethyltryptamine.
It starts off in two pieces and fuses into a single gland early in life and is on this side of the blood/brain barrier.
  

       Premature calcification of this gland from things like fluoride collecting there causes disruption of the sleep/healing cycle and brings the onset of old age, so the amount of fluoride you ingest is kind of important since turning this gland into a little stone in your head is basically the same as a slow drawn-out death sentence.   

       No trepanation necessary.   

       //The pineal gland controls the circadian rhythms of even profoundly blind individuals// Well, actually no. Even a cursory Google ("circadian rhythm blind people") threw up numerous hits; the first one I happened to look at (I can link if you like) refers to the fact that many blind people have disordered circadian rhythms. The final sentence of the abstract is: "The high incidence of abnormal circadian rhythms in blind people underscores the importance of the light- dark cycle as an important environmental synchronizer for the human circadian system."   

       So, where did you get _your_ information from? Seriously, dude, talk fewer bollocks.   

       However, if somebody suffers from central blindness (ie, blindness caused by problems in the visual cortex) but still has at least some retinal function, there's no reason why it wouldn't feed into the pituitary.   

         

       //and in many species can be seen through their skulls// That's possible. However, in humans it's located in about the most inaccessible part of the head.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 02 2016
  

       // So, where did you get _your_ information from? Seriously, dude, talk fewer bollocks.//   

       From lots of places. Give me a second.   

       Take as long as you need. It's just that you keep coming out with stuff which is, like, complete bollocks. Like:   

       //scientists are bound by the confidentiality agreements which they sign// Nope.   

       or   

       //osteoporosis doesn't exists in the animal kingdom unless induced by pinealectomy.// Nope.   

       or   

       //and am happy to prove it.// Apparently not.   

       or   

       //Demonstratable and reproducible// Apparently not too.   

       or   

       //The pineal gland controls the circadian rhythms of even profoundly blind individuals// Nope.   

       Complete bollock-fest.   

       Also, //I have no idea if it would still work now, or what metal was used to make the coat-hangers back then, or what plastic was in the pipes... none of it.// So, you're now no longer asking us to believe there's a unicorn in the box. You're asking us to believe that there was a unicorn in the box but, gosh darn it, it's escaped. Perfect.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 02 2016
  

       I've done far more than a cursory search on the subject.   

       Ok, so this is from a book called Neuroendocrinology: The Normal Neuroendocrine System. p.130   

       Substantial progress has been made in the last decade in our understanding as to how environmental light relates to the biological clock. Of great interest is that the conventional retinal photoreceptors, that is rods and cones, have only a minor role in the light-mediated inhibition of pineal melatonin production. Rather a highly specialized group of retinal ganglion cells constitute 1-2% of the total number of neurons in the ganglion cell layer is responsible for detecting and transducing the critical wavelengths of light that result in pineal melatonin synthesis inhibition(Brainard et al., 2008; Jasser et al., 2006). This alternative set of photoreceptors is endowed with a unique photopigment, melanopsin, which only responds to a relatively narrow band of visible blue wavelengths (roughly 460-480 nm) that regulates the SCN (suprachiasmatic nucleus) and suppresses pineal melatonin synthesis (Kumbalasiri and Provencio, 2005).
Thus, the mammalian retina has essential two visual systems, one of which subserves vision (visual vision) and one which influences the biological clock (circadian vision) (Foster and Hankins 2007). As a result individuals who are profoundly blind due to degeneration of the outer retinal layer, (the rods and cones) still have circadian vision which is capable of regulating the SCN and the diurnal melatonin cycle. Conversely, surgical removal of both orbital globes eliminates both vision and circadian vision.
  

       I'm not full of shit.   

       Dowsing is a thing.   

       Profoundly blind people have their circadian rhythms regulated through light collected by their pineal glands.   

       ...and calling me out over and over again will not change that.   

       //surgical removal of both orbital globes eliminates both vision and circadian vision.// That was exactly my damned point. The pineal organ responds to light via the eyes.   

       //Dowsing is a thing. // So are unicorns.   

       //Profoundly blind people have their circadian rhythms regulated through light collected by their pineal glands. // Try reading what you wrote. Especially the bit that says //surgical removal of both orbital globes eliminates both vision and circadian vision//. "Orbital globes" means "eyes".
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 02 2016
  

       " individuals who are profoundly blind due to degeneration of the outer retinal layer, (the rods and cones) still have circadian vision which is capable of regulating the SCN and the diurnal melatonin cycle."   

       What part of that sentence am I misunderstanding?
You can be born with both eyeballs and still be profoundly blind. So my statement is entirely true.
I never said that the pineal gland collects light through the skull, just that it is a light sensitive third eyeball in your head. It regulates your sleep and health, and Fluoride collecting there causes premature calcification and is an early death sentence, yet the shit is in baby formula.
  

       I've never seen a unicorn so I wouldn't know if they exist. I have seen dowsing.   

       You are trying your best to make me lose my composure and that is not going to happen, so please, I will discuss any subject with you in a rational adult manner and answer any question you might have to the best of my ability.
Will I be wrong about things? Sure. Will you prove me misinformed about things? Of course.
  

       But know this. I respect almost everyone on this site and have no desire to make myself into a pariah by flinging shit all over the art.   

       So again, please, just the teensiest bit of slack.   

       //What part of that sentence am I misunderstanding?//   

       Ah, right, I see the confusion. Blind people of course have a circadian rhythm, but in many cases it free-runs. That is to say, they have the same natural cycle as the rest of us, which is approximately 24hr long, but that cycle doesn't get entrained to day/night as it does in sighted individuals. That's the difference between having a circadian rhythm, and have a circadian rhythm entrained to the 24hr light/dark cycle.   

       If you take sighted people and put them in an environment with no external time cues, they will still maintain a circadian rhythm, and will sleep/wake on a cycle of about 24 hours (usually a bit longer); but their cycle will gradually drift out of sync with the outside world. I can find references if you like - it's interesting stuff.   

       Not all blind people have "free-running" circadian clocks. This might be because there are other cues that can entrain the circadian rhythm (like eating at a certain time, for instance); or I imagine that in some cases the connections between the eyes and the pineal gland (or other bits of the brain) are intact, even though vision is lost.   

       The pineal gland is not //a light sensitive third eyeball//, at least in humans. It doesn't get exposed to light except in cases of severe trauma. It's the eyeballs that are light sensitive, and that signal is eventually relayed to the pineal.   

       I understand that there are species in which the pineal gland is close enough to the surface of the head to receive light directly; and in humans perhaps it retains much of the machinery needed to respond directly to light (I don't know). But, since it's buried deep in the human brain, in humans it has to get its light-related signals indirectly.   

       I think we are talking at cross-purposes here.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 03 2016
  

       Yes, that's right (I mentioned it above: //a cycle of about 24 hours (usually a bit longer)//.   

       Basically, the internal circadian clock is an ingenious mechanism (it relies, if I remember correctly, on the accumulation and then destruction of a particular class of RNAs in a particular cell type). But no biochemical reaction is going to be precisely regular - it happens that humans' cycles are naturally a bit longer than 24hr - which is why there's a mechanism for external cues to adjust it and keep it in sync (or to bring it into alignment with a new time-zone, if we travel east or west).
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 03 2016
  

       Mayhaps that RNA was adopted in the cell when the days were longer?
Ling, Jul 03 2016
  

       //Mayhaps that RNA was adopted in the cell when the days were longer?//   

       The mechanism probably did arise many hundreds of millions of years ago, when days were longer. Certainly it's present in a huge range of organisms.   

       However, I don't think it's the case that it evolved to cope with longer days and then became stuck, so to speak. The periodicity could evolve much faster than that. It's more likely (and this is speculation) that it's better to have a too-long cycle that can be nudged into sync.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 03 2016
  

       //many hundreds of millions of years ago, when days were longer.// Oooops.   

       It would probably be a good idea to double-check such a factoid. In fact, just running a thermodynamics swab over it - "let's see, there's no energy inputs; is it likely to speed up on its own?" - makes for a pretty good proofreading tool.
lurch, Jul 03 2016
  

       Damn, but you're right, [lurch]. Elementary error. Head is hanging in shame.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 03 2016
  

       //Blind people of course have a circadian rhythm, but in many cases it free-runs. That is to say, they have the same natural cycle as the rest of us, which is approximately 24hr long, but that cycle doesn't get entrained to day/night as it does in sighted individuals. That's the difference between having a circadian rhythm, and have a circadian rhythm entrained to the 24hr light/dark cycle.//   

       Cool. That probably should have been specified. As for my statements being a total bollocks fest, that's quite another matter.   

       ...got any feedback on my statements about fluoride collection and pineal calcification being an early societal death sentence?   

       Any at all?   

       //got any feedback on my statements about fluoride collection and pineal calcification being an early societal death sentence?//   

       Nope. Wouldn't know where to start on that one.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 05 2016
  

       But... they're about the only things I've said that you haven't screamed bollocks about.   

       Shirley you could find out the side effects of a prematurely calcified pineal gland in minutes.   

       Even with just a cursory search...   

       //they're about the only things I've said that you haven't screamed bollocks about.//   

       That's probably because I have no reason to assume it's bollocks. Calcification of the pineal gland doesn't break any laws of physics (hence, it doesn't require extraordinary proof for me to believe it happens); and seems to be fairly well- known by mainstream science.   

       Wikipedia tells me that calcification of the pineal gland is fairly common. Whether it's influenced by fluoride or anything else I don't know. And whether it has any clinical significance, I also don't know. I wouldn't be surprised either way.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 05 2016
  

       Well I'm surprised.   

       If there is any truth that some humans have more sensitivity to Electro Magnetic Fields and the disruption of those fields a.k.a dowsing, then the ability, (if it exists) would be found amongst those humans with a more developed Pineal gland.   

       I was born with an enlarged pineal gland, and can do some... really strange things at times, none of which apparently exist, like being able to build novel inventions, test them, and play with them entirely in my head until they work.
That's about the only one I might be able to convince you about since many of my ideas posted to this site would seem to support this claim, so let's forget about intuition, or sensitivity, or knowing things without knowing 'how' I know them, and all of the other claims I might make and concentrate on just that one verifiable knack for now.
  

       It is 'that' gift which is being suppressed in our societies, and I'd bet my ass that Nichola Tesla and Einstein probably had pineal glands of epic proportions.
(it's enough to give a guy a serious case of pineal envy)
  

       Throughout history and across cultures the pineal gland has been tied to creativity, intuition, inner sight, and the ability to use the minds eye to imagine vividly... does sound to you like anyone we both know?   

       Now the UK is having this fucking industrial waste poison added to its drinking water supplies under the guise of being good for your teeth. This is false and Every study shows it. Overdose causes fluorosis and rots the teeth out of your head, and don't think that you are safe by drinking bottled water because the shit is absorbed through the skin and inhaled with the steam of your shower or swimming, bathing and even by washing the dishes.
In areas which are declining fluoridated water it is being added to salt and other foods to make sure as few people as possible fall through the cracks and avoid being poisoned.
  

       I meant what I said when I said that I both like and respect you as a person, at least I like and respect what I know of you from what I have managed to glean from your writings here.
(that may be a bit more than you'd be comfortable with btw given, your... verbosity here on my favorite little hang out, and these other knacks I possess which we are ignoring for now)
As a scientist I figured you might appreciate the opportunity to be able to keep your children and grandchildren from having their immune systems, IQ's, and ability to think for themselves from being compromised by government policies being used to chemically attack its citizens by... who knows?
THEY I guess.
The practice doesn't seem to be eugenically motivated since it's a fairly global phenomenon which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
  

       If, by some quirk of fate, it happens that your children or grandchildren begin displaying traits of excessive creativity, intuition, or the odd little seemingly physics (as we know them) defying knacks, well, maybe you'll remember me and be able to overcome your conditioning enough to cut them the slack they'll need to figure themselves out.   

       //As a scientist I figured you might appreciate the opportunity to be able to keep your children and grandchildren from having their immune systems, IQ's, and ability to think for themselves from being compromised by government policies being used to chemically attack its citizens by... who knows?//   

       Phew. I was worried we'd be getting into conspiracy theories or something here. Good to know you're as sane as ever.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016
  

       Well, if Fluoride is actually harming people as studies would seem to indicate, and if the cases of fluorosis are higher in fluoridated areas then non-fluoridated areas with lower IQ's in children, and the scientists studying the problem are completely ignored... then yep, by deductive reasoning, something's fucky Ricky.   

       Adults continuing to trust in authority when that authority is being used to harm their kids.   

       "That" is insane.   

       Absolutely, [2fries]. Remind me of the reasoning behind this desire to lower national IQs?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016
  

       "You'd have to be really stupid to vote for [the government | those in power] to have more power"   

       That one is pretty straight-forward. There are others, however, which may lie more upon the lines of unintended consequences.   

       Some decisions have bad effects. Those decisions may be made by persons (or groups) who are malicious, stupid, greedy, clueless, vain, or misled. Does their motivation justify the action? Or ameliorate the result?
lurch, Jul 06 2016
  

       OK - the good news: I found the requested article in the stacks index at my local university. It's from 1978, so it's in hardcopy.   

       The bad news: the university discarded all of the hardcopy books and journals from their medical library stacks in the summer of 2014. Everything is now digital, available on-line.   

       "Everything", that is, if it's in the library's subscriptions: 10 year rolling subscriptions from Springer and Reed-Elsevier, a 5 year from Taylor & Francis, and (I think) a 5 year deal with Sage. Anything not from those publishers - gone. Anything not in those time frames, even from those publishers - gone.   

       They used to go all the way back to the 1890s issues of the journal "The Lancet", all the issues for each half-year bound in leather. At least a hundred journals were kept from the 1910s to present. Where did it all end up? A dumpster. Dustbin. Whatever you call it, it went on a truck, went to the landfill, and was burned. No recycling, because somebody was afraid there might be "repercussions" if some plebe got his dirty mitts on, say, a 1966 Journal of the Kansas Medical Association, without the copyright clearance being paid for.   

       So how's the current supply? Well, let's just say I pick at non- random an author, and see how we do.   

       "Genomic analysis of the causative agents of coccidiosis in domestic chickens.", published in Genome Research in 2014, for which Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press is the publisher. Boo! Oh, wait - it's available for free through PubMed Central. Dodged a bullet.   

       "IRS2 is a candidate driver oncogene on 13q34 in colorectal cancer.", 2013 in the International Journal of Experimental Pathology, again the wrong publisher, this time Wiley-Blackwell (one of the Big 5), but again PubMed Central saves the day.   

       "Digital PCR strategies in the development and analysis of molecular biomarkers for personalized medicine.", published in Methods, 2013, this time in Elsevier, so that one's available. At least until 2023, from which time it won't be.   

       "Insights into the genome structure and copy-number variation of Eimeria tenella.", 2012 in BioMed Central. BMC is open access, so I commend the authors for their choice of journal. (With the reservation that there are those claiming that the "open" in "open access" is a verb, not an adjective)   

       "Numts help to reconstruct the demographic history of the ocellated lizard (Lacerta lepida) in a secondary contact zone." 2012 in Molecular Ecology, a Wiley journal. Bzzzzt. Can't get that one.   

       "Single-molecule genomics." 2010, the Journal of Pathology. Wiley again. Not available.   

       "Copy-number variation: the end of the human genome?", Trends in Biotechnology, 2009, CellPress. No... Oh, look, they seem to have some affiliation with Elsevier. Good to go - for 3 more years anyway. Then pfffft.   

       "Microdissection molecular copy-number counting (microMCC)-- unlocking cancer archives with digital PCR." 2008, the Journal of Pathology; Wiley, again. Don't some people learn? (Oh, wait, I'm going backward here, never mind.) But anyway - no.   

       "Multiplex amplification of ancient DNA." 2006 in Nature Protocols. A Nature journal, not available.   

       In case anyone is wondering, that's far from an exhaustive list - there's more than three dozen I didn't select. And to be fair, there are more of the total available for free than not, and of those remaining, most are available for a fee. (Except that doctors are not encouraged to purchase journals outside the subscriptions the hospital already has. No need to break anyone's thumbs; if Dr. Smith wants something from another journal, it's paid for with Dr. Smith's money.)   

       Still, I can sit in the medical library of the primary teaching hospital in the Intermountain West and watch publications disappearing off the virtual shelves.   

       //As for other scientific publications disappearing - not really.// [MaxwellBuchanan]   

       Quantified, specified, identified. Your career is being rolled up behind you and discarded. Call it //bollocks// if you want to - just keep your eyes tight shut.
lurch, Jul 06 2016
  

       Uh, [lurch], if you'd care to visit my website, all of my 50-odd publications are there as PDFs for free. Let me know if any are missing and I'll add them. (There may be a couple of recent ones I haven't yet added.)   

       I agree, though - the long history of journals (not authors, by the way) putting publications behind paywalls is wrong. That's why the MRC (for example) _now_ requires that all researchers funded by it either publish in open-access journals, or pay the fees necessary to make their particular publication open access. I believe the NIH does the same. And it's the reason I make all my publications freely available myself. It is also the custom, in science, to send reprints (or, nowadays, PDFs) to anyone who asks for one (for free, obviously).   

       In short, [Lurch], please don't go vilifying me for the publication policies of journals; especially as I have gone to the trouble to make my publications freely available as far as I can.   

       As for stuff disappearing - nope. The first paper I authored (which must be 30 years ago now) is still there, as are practically all papers. If I want to read an article from Nature in 1880, I can. Now, whichever trade you belong to, tell me how easily I can read things written by members of that profession 140 years ago.   

       What actually _is_ a problem is the vast number of bogus journals which offer rapid publication with very lax peer review, for a fee; these "predatory journals" are a fairly new phenomenon; they generally sink without trace, taking all their publications with them.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016
  

       //Remind me of the reasoning behind this desire to lower national IQs?//   

       I don't think that is necessarily the goal, just a side effect.
It is the pineal gland which is being attacked.
The result is asymptomatic and since GP's aren't taught this their patients fit no profile and so they are written off as hypochondriacs or offered any number of treatments and pharmaceuticals until they eventually die at a far earlier age than they would have had their pineal glands remained healthy.
  

       To the tune of several trillion dollars a year for the various PharmaCo's out there.   

       Even that though is just gravy. It's about power. Pineal gland robustness comes with... abilities. (only one of which I can demonstrate to you) You can't beg, buy, borrow or steal these abilities and so I believe that certain wealthy and powerful families have conspired to make sure that if they can't ensure that 'their' descendants retain power, so they would rather that there is no chance in hell that some third world countries children can attain power over them.
Simple as that. Same game it's always been.
  

       Fluoride is poison. Every study proves it.   

       So why are governments forcing this treatment on their citizens against their collective will and ignoring all scientific evidence against any good it may be doing?   

       The shit they are putting in the water isn't even the same as the naturally occurring fluoride found in water supplies where supposedly people's teeth last longer.
It's a con.
Having been raised by a con-man, I refuse to blindly follow authority.
  

       I detest con-men.   

       Personally I would rather that my children retain their faculties than their teeth.
I can teach them to keep their teeth without fluoride. I can not fix their endocrine systems once their government has poisoned them.
  

       Follow the money, find out which politicians from which countries lobbied hardest to introduce fluoride to drinking water in the first place, then find out who was lining their pockets at the time, and that will point to the culprit/s.   

       Researching that is quite beyond my scope. Intuiting it is not.   

       //several trillion dollars// Soooooo, bigger than the global pharmaceuticals market, eh? Wowwwww, dude.   

         

       //Pineal gland robustness comes with... abilities. (only one of which I can demonstrate to you)//   

       I was going to make a smart-alec remark, but I think you've made my point better than I ever could.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016
  

       //don't go vilifying me for the publication policies of journals// I'm not; authors are typically the victims, not perpetrators.   

       //[...] especially as I have gone to the trouble to make my publications freely available as far as I can.// Makes me happier than you can possibly know.   

       // if you'd care to visit my website, all of my 50-odd publications are there as PDFs for free.// I'll assume you've done your due diligence and are permitted to self-host your articles. I've known authors who have gotten into trouble for that; not all publishers grant hosting rights back to authors, even though they may claim "open access". (I looked up Wiley-Blackwell's author rights; I was very pleased to note that they do (now) permit self-archiving. I may even have to take back something (or maybe even a couple somethings) evil I have said about them.)   

       There's still a disconnect, though. If somebody taps into PubMed, they'll find all the requisite citations, but there's nothing that says "If otherwise unavailable, look on lead author's personal website".
lurch, Jul 06 2016
  

       Thank you, [lurch], and my apologies.   

       No, I didn't check whether I had the right to host my own articles (they are, as you mentioned, generally copyright-owned by the journal not the authors), but I figured what the hell. Many of my colleagues do the same.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 06 2016
  

       //Pineal gland robustness comes with... abilities. (only one of which I can demonstrate to you)//   

       // I was going to make a smart-alec remark, but I think you've made my point better than I ever could.//   

       That's all you have to say?... that I didn't check to see if it was billions rather than trillions?
Seriously?
  

       What do you want from me?
If the supposedly non-existent ability to create intricate novel inventions entirely in my head without math which work when I build them without a background in... anything isn't enough of a knack to convince you that I have other knacks, which I can't demonstrate from thousands of miles away using only text on a computer, well then... then maybe there's no pleasing you.
  

       Can you do this thing that I can do? To be able to invent working machines without math and without having been taught how.
Ever met anyone else that can do this thing that I can do?
  

       I don't think so.   

       I'll see if I can get dowsing to work for me before we get to England, since that seems to be the stick you have up your ass, but if I do, will you even believe it if you see it for yourself?   

       Fluoride is poison. It's coming your way. It will turn an extremely important portion of your descendants brains into stone. You might be able to head this off at the pass if you pull your head out of your ass long enough to think for yourself and research a bit.   

       You're welcome.   

       //That's all you have to say// Yep.   

       //If the supposedly non-existent ability to create intricate novel inventions entirely in my head without math which work when I build them without a background in... anything // Yes, that's a knack. If you can do it then that's great, and I hope you have made good use of it. Some people are intuitive engineers or inventors, and good for them. Yes, of course I've met people who can do that.   

       //I'll see if I can get dowsing to work for me before we get to England// Excellent. If it does, you and I can work out a mutually-agreed test. Keep me posted.   

       //Fluoride is poison. It's coming your way.// Perhaps. It's clearly not a huge issue, but I have no particular stance on fluoride. So far me and my descendants seem to be holding up OK.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 07 2016
  

       // It's clearly not a huge issue, but I have no particular stance on fluoride. So far me and my descendants seem to be holding up OK.//   

       You have been conditioned well.   

       Thanks, [2fries]. Didn't realize you could see my hair from there.   

       Personally, I find it helpful to just get on with life. Yes, there's various shitty things about it, and it might turn out that my tapwater, underpants or mobile are going to kill me.   

       But the alternative is monomania and paranoia. If your beliefs have driven or enabled you to achieve all the things you wanted to in life, and to make a difference in the world, then clearly they're working for you.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 07 2016
  

       I find that the fluoridation in my toothpaste and drinking water makes me feel much less paranoid about it than those that refuse it. Must be the evil fluoride overlords...
RayfordSteele, Jul 07 2016
  

       Not really. "Pants beliefs" would work, though.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 07 2016
  

       //Personally, I find it helpful to just get on with life.//   

       It's like that old saying;
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”
  

       By doing nothing, you as a parent are consenting to let your children be given a chemical pinealecotomy.
So, I guess the question would then be, is your consent informed?
If not.
Why not?
  

       That's not monomania or paranoia, it's just a damned good question.   

       Well, my daughter is now 21 and seems to have grown up normally, but thanks for asking. Our dog's doing fine too.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2016
  

       It's cumulative and you don't have fluoride in the water there. I assume you'd like your grandchildren to grow up as healthy as your daughter has.   

       Seriously, read a few of the studies about fluoridated areas compared to non-fluoridated ones.
Then crack as many jokes as you like about it.
  

       To be honest, [2fries], I'm not that concerned, but I'll bear it in mind. Presumably, if we see a high incidence of pituitary dwarfism in the next generation of Americans, we'll know.   

       But given that water here isn't generally fluoridated, would one not expect all Englishmen to have // Pineal gland robustness// and therefore to possess //... abilities// ?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2016
  

       <strikethrough>abilities</sr> cavities   

       Englishness is generally a suppressant, and so might naturally suppress abilities.
RayfordSteele, Jul 08 2016
  

       // It is true I have asked everyone to suspend their disbelief.   

       This is an unreasonable thing to ask. You claim to have abilities which have not been shown possible. You can't be surprised when people don't believe you. Human perception can be fooled easily, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence.   

       This has been a fascinating read, but at this point, [MaxwellBuchanan] it appears that engagement is just encouragement.
tatterdemalion, Jul 08 2016
  

       // But given that water here isn't generally fluoridated, would one not expect all Englishmen to have // Pineal gland robustness// and therefore to possess //... abilities// ? //   

       No. It's an abnormality. One which is going to become more normal. I'm just a freak.   

       //This is an unreasonable thing to ask. You claim to have abilities which have not been shown possible. You can't be surprised when people don't believe you. Human perception can be fooled easily, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence.//   

       I am not surprised to not be believed. Nobody ever believes until they see the strange stuff for themselves.
I just strongly question that they have not been shown to be possible. They have been supressed since the burn-the-witch days.
  

       Funny how eradicating anyone displaying novel traits for generations will tend to cause those traits to diminish in a society...   

       //I'm just a freak.// How disappointed would you be if you turned out to be normal?   

       //burn-the-witch days// Ah. [2fries], old bean, I think you may be operating under a misapprehension here. As far as I know, witches were burned because _other_ people believed they had supernatural abilities; the witches presumably denied having these abilities. In your case, the situation is pretty much the reverse. You are the one claiming to have the supernatural abilities; it's everyone else who is (to put it politely) skeptical. Still, I'm sure your //robust pineal// will win out in the end.   

       How did your dowsing tests go? Are we still on for a formal demonstration of your abilities? As you said, //Nobody ever believes until they see the strange stuff for themselves.// So, show me already.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 08 2016
  

       A video upload to YouTube would be beneficial here.
RayfordSteele, Jul 08 2016
  

       Nobody is going to believe any stinking you-tube video.   

       //How disappointed would you be if you turned out to be normal? //   

       That boat has sailed.   

       //You are the one claiming to have the supernatural abilities; it's everyone else who is (to put it politely) skeptical. Still, I'm sure your //robust pineal// will win out in the end.//   

       I do not think that my knacks are supernatural, (that's your word getting put in my mouth again), just suppressed... and I would probably recant having them too if I was seeing people like me getting torched. Hopefully we are all a bit more mature as a species by now.   

       //How did your dowsing tests go? Are we still on for a formal demonstration of your abilities?//   

       I haven't tried again yet. No time. I'll let you know if I get it to work. I'm having a hard time figuring out how I 'can' test it. I had thought to ask my one of my neighbours if I can try dowsing their water lines but then I would have to dig them up to determine if it's working and that's a bit much to ask.
I could try dowsing my own water lines but I would never know for sure if it was working or if I was subconsciously remembering where I buried them a decade ago.
  

       I'll hit a bunch of the second hand stores this weekend and buy a bunch of older looking coat hangers.   

       It would be nice I suppose if I can pull it off again, but honestly I don't really care one way or the other.
I've seen what I've seen and I've told it to you all the way it happened. Not being able to replicate what I saw will only invalidate the memory for you not for me, and it sure as hell won't invalidate the fact that fluoride is being used to fuck up peoples' endocrine systems for profit, that it's no good for your teeth like you're being told, or that its only use is to calcify the pineal gland.
  

       Done any research yet?   

       // It would be nice I suppose if I can pull it off again, but honestly I don't really care one way or the other.//   

       OK, so what you're saying is that if you fail, then there *was* a unicorn in the box, but it must have escaped. Well, gosh darn it, aint that always the way? The fact that it _always_ fails when put to a real test is unfortunate, because it makes "dowsers" look like either fools or fraudsters.   

       //it sure as hell won't invalidate the fact that fluoride is being used to fuck up peoples' endocrine systems for profit//   

       Maybe I should have made myself clearer. As to whether fluoride is good or bad, I have no particularly strong views. I doubt that there's a sinister global conspiracy, but that is not really relevant here. It is, a priori, possible that fluoride is good, bad or indifferent - neither finding would imply anything supernatural, and there's probably evidence on both sides.   

       //Done any research yet?// Quite a lot, thanks. Oh - you mean on fluoride? Nope - not interested.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2016
  

       M'yes... quite.   

       How does fluoride calcify your pineal gland but avoid calcifying the parts of your body that are contain the highest concentrations of calcium, and are the most frequently and directly exposed to it? Abandon this line of thought, it contains no logic.
RayfordSteele, Jul 09 2016
  

       "Fluoride does not accumulate in brain. Of all tissues, brain has the lowest fluoride concentration [Jenkins, 1991; Whitford, 1996; Ekstrand, 1996]. It is generally agreed that the blood-brain barrier restricts the passage of fluoride into the central nervous system. The human pineal gland is outside the blood-brain barrier [Arendt, 1995]. It is one of a few unique regions in the brain (all midline structures bordering the third and fourth ventricles) where the blood-brain barrier is weak. Cells in these regions require direct and unimpeded contact with blood [Rapoport, 1976]. Therefore, pinealocytes have free access to fluoride in the bloodstream. This fact, coupled with the presence of HA, suggest that the pineal gland may sequester fluoride from the bloodstream."   

       //Abandon this line of thought, it contains no logic.//   

       Oh it's logical all right, but I was led to the information by intuition.
The fuckers are poisoning our children. It has nothing to do with their teeth and everything to do with keeping their minds' eyes shut tight. The treatment of symptoms deriving from premature pineal calcification is big business since it is asymptomatic for each individual, and our doctors are not taught about it in med school.
  

       It is not in my nature to abandon them.
The truth isn't easy to hear is it?
  

       //It is not in my nature to abandon them.//   

       That is very noble. I trust that you are using your //...powers// to help them.   

       To suggest that fluoride in drinking water may have adverse effects is entirely reasonable (a priori) as a possibility. There is certainly research, and not all the findings point in the same direction.   

       To suggest that fluoride is used as part of a worldwide conspiracy to suppress some latent and mystical pineal ability is, frankly, guaranteed to make most reasonable people dismiss you as a complete nutter, or fall about laughing. I know I do; but then again there's no guarantee that I'm a reasonable person.   

       I'm not sure you really answered a question I raised some time ago. Given the track record of governments in general when it comes to keeping secrets, do you honestly believe that there is an international conspiracy, involving the successive (and often politically opposed) governments of at least 28 nations, not to mention several thousand scientists and their friends and families, and umpteen doctors, which has been sustained for a period of several decades? Or, to put it another way, are you seriously asking us to seriously believe that you seriously believe it?   

       //The truth isn't easy to hear is it?//   

       You're right there. I'm in danger of losing my G&T via my nostrils. I seldom actually LOL, but I am very close to chuckling here. No doubt the chem- trail agents have reduced my capacity for paranoia. You are a hoot!
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2016
  

       //That is very noble. I trust that you are using your //...powers// to help them.//   

       I'm trying to.   

       //To suggest that fluoride is used as part of a worldwide conspiracy to suppress some latent and mystical pineal ability is, frankly, guaranteed to make most reasonable people dismiss you as a complete nutter, or fall about laughing.//   

       First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.   

       //Given the track record of governments in general when it comes to keeping secrets, do you honestly believe that there is an international conspiracy, involving the successive (and often politically opposed) governments of at least 28 nations, not to mention several thousand scientists and their friends and families, and umpteen doctors, which has been sustained for a period of several decades? Or, to put it another way, are you seriously asking us to seriously believe that you seriously believe it?//   

       Governments are corrupt. Politicians are for sale. Scientists are being ignored about the threat of fluoride while five-year-olds-and-up are given fluoride "treatments" every few months because the dentists and hygienists are not taught that they are dispensing poison under the guise of dental care.
Fluoride does not help your teeth, so you tell me why the shit is everywhere.
Then tell me what purpose fluoride has in baby formula?
Maybe it is to make the infants teeth stronger...
  

       Look, either get off your ass and look into it for yourself or sod off.
I outgrew your juvenile bully tactics by grade five or so.
It's water off a ducks' back to me, so you can help me find answers, or you are nothing more than another obstacle for me to overcome in a very long string of obstacles.
  

       Meanwhile enjoy your gin and tonic sir. Make it a double, it does wonders for the nasal passages.   

       //First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. //   

       Excellent. You've made it to stage two.   

       //Look, either get off your ass and look into it for yourself or sod off.// Nah, I'm enjoying this. Like I said, I have no particular view about - nor interest in - fluoride. But I do enjoy arguing with conspiracy nuts. It's a sport. Of course, no conspiracy nut ever changed their views as a result of anything, but that's half the fun.   

       //juvenile bully tactics// You see, that's one of the things I honestly don't get. We have diametrically opposed views, and we are each one human being with an equal ability to type. So, it's not really bullying - you're the one with the //...powers//. I just think you're a loony; you're free to tell me I'm a nut too, if you like. However, I do like your use of the phrase "sod off", which is very British of you. I don't intend to, but it's a nice turn of phrase, I always think.   

       //you can help me find answers, or you are nothing more than another obstacle for me to overcome in a very long string of obstacles.// I am proud to be that obstacle. I am not remotely interested in helping you research fluoride - I have already indicated several times that it is of no particular interest to me, and frankly you can do your own research.   

       However, to help you out a bit, I checked out fluoride in baby formulas. You are trying to imply that it's an additive. I'm not sure if that's an error on your part or just a game-tactic, but it turns out that fluoride is there either due to its presence in the other ingredients, or because the water where its made is fluoridated. Point being that it's not put there "for a purpose" like you implied.   

       Sometimes, [2fries], it does pay to actually try to learn a little about what you're blathering on about. Reading is a good first step. Otherwise you come across as either lying or dumb, and I am sure neither of those is the case.   

       //Make it a double// I know of no other type.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2016
  

       Yes but, [Ian], surely that's because the US was secretly in bed with the USSR? The conspiracy was just bigger than you thought.   

       Obviously I'm kidding. The _real_ conspiracy is not that the moon-landings were faked, but that the moon itself is faked. That's one of the reasons it looks like a coin-sized disc rather than a huge sphere.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2016
  

       Happy to entertain. People learn better when they are amused. I am sorry to hear that you won't look into fluoride effects for yourself though [MB].   

       Good thing you aren't the only person on this website.   

       Cheers.   

       //Good thing you aren't the only person on this website. // Be very dull if I were.   

       You may have missed the bit where I said:   

       //However, to help you out a bit, I checked out fluoride in baby formulas. You are trying to imply that it's an additive. I'm not sure if that's an error on your part or just a game-tactic, but it turns out that fluoride is there either due to its presence in the other ingredients, or because the water where its made is fluoridated. Point being that it's not put there "for a purpose" like you implied.   

       Sometimes, [2fries], it does pay to actually try to learn a little about what you're blathering on about. Reading is a good first step. Otherwise you come across as either lying or dumb, and I am sure neither of those is the case.//
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 09 2016
  

       I don't give a fuck 'why' it is in the baby formula.
It shouldn't be there. Where are the regulations? How much fluoride does it take to overdose an infant? How soon in life is this cumulative poison introduced to our species? ...and by whom?
  

       That's the question.   

       You might want to learn what I'm blathering on about. Reading is a good first step.   

       Someone please explain the assertion that fluoride isn't good for teeth. Intuition that presupposes such vast conspiracies isn't trustworthy. Sorry.   

       Fromthe ADA q and a about fluoride:   

       "The same researcher has theorized in unpublished reports posted on the Internet that the accumulation of fluoride in children’s pineal gland leads to an earlier on- set of puberty. However, the researcher notes that there is no verification that fluoride accumulates in children’s pineal glands. Moreover, a study conducted in New- burgh (fluoridated) and Kingston (non-fluoridated), New York found no statistical significance between the onset of menstruation for girls living in a fluoridated verses non-fluoridated area.253"   

       Baby formula is typically powdered. You mix it with water. Amazingly, the fluoride from the tap water does not instantly vaporize upon contact with said formula.
RayfordSteele, Jul 09 2016
  

       //I don't give a fuck 'why' it is in the baby formula.//   

       Well, my point was that you are suggesting some kind of global conspiracy, and strongly implied that they _added_ fluoride to baby formula as part of this conspiracy, and that evidence of harm caused by excess fluoride is being suppressed.   

       The fact is that (a) they don't add it - they just don't remove it; perhaps they should, but that's not the same thing and (b) there is plenty of discussion in reputable, peer-reviewed journals examining the adverse effects of excess fluoride.   

       My main point is that your idea of a global conspiracy to suppress "pineal robustness" is just loopy. For that reason I think it's reasonable to point out cases where your "evidence" for such a conspiracy is simply wrong.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       Yes, that "why" should have been a "how".   

       // My main point is that your idea of a global conspiracy to suppress "pineal robustness" is just loopy. For that reason I think it's reasonable to point out cases where your "evidence" for such a conspiracy is simply wrong. //   

       My gut doesn't believe you. I trust my gut.
Trying to explain the sensation to those without it is like trying to explain colors to blind people.
  

       //please explain the assertion that fluoride isn't good for teeth//   

       "BACKGROUND:
Fluoride intake at optimal level decreases the incidence of dental caries. However, excessive intake, especially during developmental stages can cause adverse effects such as dental and skeletal fluorosis.
RESULTS:
The overall prevalence of dental fluorosis was found to be 41.73%. An increase in the community fluorosis index (CFI) was higher among those living in high water fluoride area.
CONCLUSION:
A significantly positive correlation was found between CFI and water fluoride concentration in drinking water."
  

       "OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the prevalence of fluorosis and related control measures on drinking water type of endemic fluorosis in China.
RESULTS:
The overall prevalence of dental fluorosis among children aged 8-12 in all the villages under monitor program, was 28.58% (7 950/27 817), with the dental fluorosis index (DFI) as 0.58. Among them, the prevalence was 22.28% (3 917/17 583) and DFI was 0.44 in the'water-improved projects' villages that under normal operation and with qualified fluoride contents. The prevalence appeared as 38.74% (1 926/4 971) with DFI as 0.84 in those villages with 'water-improved projects' but mal-operated or with excessive fluoride. The prevalence was 40.03% (2 107/5 263), and DFI was 0.81 in those villages without 'water-improved projects'. The prevalence rates of dental fluorosis in children from the three types of endemic areas were significantly different. For 'water-improved projects', the normal opration rate was 93.77% (286/305) and the qualification rate of fluoride content was 76.77% (228/297).
CONCLUSIONS:
Dental fluorosis in children living in the drinking-water-born endemic fluorosis areas was on the edge of epidemics in China. Effective improvement on the quality of drinking water can significantly reduce the severity of dental fluorosis in children. The rate of proper operation on 'water-improved projects' was near to 95% in the endemic area. However, rate that met the criteria on qualified fluoride contents of these projects was still below 80%."
  

       The list goes on.
Pineal calcification data:
  

       "BACKGROUND:
Pineal calcification is associated with symptomatic cerebral infarction in humans. However, there are limited data on the association of pineal calcification and intracerebral hemorrhage. We evaluated this association of symptomatic intracerebral hemorrhage and pineal calcification by computed tomography of the brain.
RESULTS:
There were 2140 CT scans of the brains during the study period. Of those, 1071 scans (50.05%) met the study criteria. Intracerebral hemorrhage and pineal calcification were found in 77 (7.2%) and 689 (64.3%) patients, respectively. Pineal calcification was a significant risk factor for intracerebral hemorrhage with an adjusted odds ratio of 2.36 (95% confidence interval of 1.22-4.54). Other significant factors were age>50 years, hypertension, and diabetes.
CONCLUSION:
Pineal calcification is associated with symptomatic intracerebral hemorrhage."
  

       "PURPOSE:
To investigate the relation between circadian saliva melatonin levels and pineal volume as determined by MRI. Plasma melatonin levels follow a circadian rhythm with a high interindividual variability.
RESULTS:
Solid and uncalcified pineal volume correlated to melatonin maximum (r&#8201;=&#8201;0.28; P&#8201;<&#8201;0.05) and area under the curve (r&#8201;=&#8201;0.29; P&#8201;<&#8201;0.05). Of interest, solid and uncalcified pineal volume correlated negatively with the sleep rhythm disturbances subscore (r&#8201;=&#8201;-0.17; P&#8201;<&#8201;0.05) despite a very homogenous population.
CONCLUSION:
Uncalcified solid pineal tissue measured by 3D-T2-TSE and SWI is related to human saliva melatonin levels. The analysis of the sleep quality and pineal volume suggests a linkage between better sleep quality and hormonal active pineal tissue."
  

       "BACKGROUND:
Pineal calcification and low melatonin have been shown to be risk factors for stroke in animal studies; however, there are limited clinical data on the association of pineal calcification and stroke in humans.
METHODS:
All computed tomographic (CT) scans of the brains of patients >15 years of age during the year 2011 at a university teaching hospital were retrospectively reviewed. Patient medical charts were used to obtain the risk factors for stroke, including diabetes, hypertension, dyslipidemia, age, and sex. Cerebral infarction was identified by having clinical syndromes of stroke and a positive CT scan. Patients with embolic or hemorrhagic stroke were excluded. Pineal calcification was evidenced by the CT scans. The association of various stroke risk factors and cerebral infarction were calculated using logistic regression analysis.
RESULTS:
A total of 1614 patients were included, and symptomatic cerebral infarction was identified in 620 patients (38.4%). Regarding stroke risk factors in symptomatic cerebral infarction patients, the majority of patients were male (356 [57.4%]), >50 years of age (525 [84.7%]), and had hypertension (361 [58.2%]); some had diabetes (199 [32.1%]) and dyslipidemia (174 [28.1%]). Pineal calcification was found in 1081 patients (67.0%), with a male:female ratio of 1.5:1. Significant factors related to cerebral infarction by univariate logistic regression were age >50 years, hypertension, diabetes, dyslipidemia, and pineal calcification. Pineal calcification as a risk factor for cerebral infarction had an adjusted odds ratio of 1.35 (95% confidence interval 1.05-1.72).
CONCLUSIONS:
Pineal calcification may be a potential new contributor to cerebral infarction."
  

       "OBJECTIVE:
Melatonin plays a key role in the proper functioning of the circadian timing system (CTS), and exogenous melatonin has been shown to be beneficial in cases of CTS and sleep disturbances. Nevertheless, the concept of "melatonin deficit" has yet to be defined. The aim of our study was, therefore, to determine the relationship between the degree of pineal calcification (DOC) and a range of sleep parameters measured objectively using polysomnography (PSG).
METHODS:
A total of 31 outpatients (17 women, 14 men, mean age 45.9 years; SD 14.4) with primary insomnia were included in our study. Following an adaptation night, a PSG recording night was performed in the sleep laboratory. Urine samples were collected at predefined intervals over a 32-h period that included both PSG nights. The measurement of 6-sulphatoxymelatonin (aMT6s) levels was determined using ELISA. DOC and volume of calcified pineal tissue (CPT) and uncalcified pineal tissue (UPT) were estimated by means of cranial computed tomography.
RESULTS:
UPT was positively associated with 24-h aMT6s excretion (r=0.569; P=0.002), but CPT was not. After controlling for age, aMT6s parameters, CPT, and UPT did not correlate with any of the PSG parameters evaluated. In contrast, DOC was negatively associated with REM sleep percentage (r=-0.567, P=0.001), total sleep time (r=-0.463, P=0.010), and sleep efficiency (r=-0.422, P=0.020).
CONCLUSION:
DOC appears to be a superior indicator of melatonin deficit compared to the absolute amount of melatonin in the circulation. High DOC values indicate changes predominantly in the PSG parameters governed by the circadian timing system. DOC may thus serve as a marker of CTS instability."
  

       "Melatonin has been postulated to have diverse properties, acting as an antioxidant, a neuroprotector, or a stabilizer within the circadian timing system, and is thus thought to be involved in the aging process and Alzheimer's disease (AD). We used computed tomography to determine the degree of pineal calcification (DOC), an intra-individual melatonin deficit marker, as well as the size of uncalcified pineal tissue, in 279 consecutive memory clinic outpatients (AD: 155; other dementia: 25; mild cognitive impairment: 33; depression: 66) and 37 age-matched controls. The size of uncalcified pineal tissue in patients with AD (mean 0.15 cm(2) [S.D. 0.24]) was significantly smaller than in patients with other types of dementia (0.26 [0.34]; P=0.038), with depression (0.28 [0.34]; P=0.005), or in controls (0.25 [0.31]; P=0.027). Additionally, the DOC in patients with AD (mean 76.2% [S.D. 26.6]) was significantly higher than in patients with other types of dementia (63.7 [34.7]; P=0.042), with depression (60.5 [33.8]; P=0.001), or in controls (64.5 [30.6]; P=0.021). These two findings may reflect two different aspects of melatonin in AD. On the one hand, the absolute amount of melatonin excretion capability, as indicated by uncalcified pineal volume, refers to the antioxidant properties of melatonin. On the other hand, the relative reduction in melatonin production capability in the individual, as indicated by DOC, refers to the circadian properties of melatonin."   

       "RATIONALE AND OBJECTIVES:
To evaluate the prevalence of physiologic pineal calcification, estimate observer variability, and examine the association with choroid plexus calcification.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
A retrospective review of hard copy head computed tomography films of 242 patients age younger than 16 years by two independent observers.
RESULTS:
Physiologic pineal calcification was present in 20% of the whole group, in 39% of those 8-14 years age, in 8% of those younger than 10 years age, and in 1% of those younger than age 6 years. Observer agreement was very good (kappa = 0.72). Choroid plexus calcification was present in 16% and was four times as common in those with pineal calcification (38% versus 10%, P = .005), with very good observer agreement (kappa = 0.74).
CONCLUSION:
Physiologic pineal calcification is more common in children than previously reported, mostly because of improving computed tomography technology. There is an association with choroid plexus calcification."
  

       "This hypothesis suggests that industrialization alters the human neuroendocrine system. The neuroendocrine changes come about because of changes in environmental stimuli. It is further proposed that changes in neuroendocrine function can account for the contrasting pattern of non-communicable diseases in traditional and industrialized societies. The hypothesis is based on subtle clinical differences in traditional and industrialized societies, and the evolving concept of neuroendocrine regulation of physiological processes. Compared to traditional societies, individuals from industrialized communities tend to have lower pain tolerance, slower gastrointestinal transit-time, and a greater chance of having a calcified pineal gland. These changes parallel the increasing incidence of non-communicable diseases in industrialized societies. There is sufficient reason to suspect the variations in pain tolerance, gastrointestinal transit-time and pineal gland calcification represent changes in neuroendocrine function. Programming of the neuroendocrine system by environmental events early in life is one possible mechanism whereby these changes might be effected. Understanding the physiological changes that occur with industrialization, and how environmental stimuli interact with the developing neuroendocrine system might lead to new strategies for the prevention and treatment of non-communicable diseases."   

       ...   

       I could go on, but you get the picture right?
Either "They" are killing us slowly and for profit...
  

       ...or we are all governed by idiots who just don't give a fuck about anything but their next pension. The result is the same.   

       //My gut doesn't believe you. I trust my gut.//   

       Ah. I believe we may have uncovered the problem here. Guess what guts are full of?   

       //or we are all governed by idiots who just don't give a fuck about anything but their next pension. The result is the same.//   

       Ah(2). Once again, you are beginning to make a vestige of sense.   

       You've been asserting for ages, quite vehemently (or appearing to be quite vehement for the purposes of kayfabe - one can't tell) that we are all victims of a global conspiracy to suppress our //...powers// by tampering with our vital fluids.   

       To suggest instead that we simply the unwitting victims of mundane vested interests and/or ineptitude borders on the entirely plausible.   

       //"BACKGROUND...//   

       Ah(3). You've also been blithering on about how research into the adverse effects of fluoride is being suppressed. But then you go on to quote (I assume) several publications on the harmful effects of excess fluoride.   

       I am puzzled, [2fries]. You are citing research to support your conspiracy theory that research is being suppressed?   

       Do try and be a little more consistent.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       //You've also been blithering on about how research into the adverse effects of fluoride is being suppressed.//   

       No. I said that information about the pineal gland and its "weirdness" is disappearing, and that scientists are being ignored about its premature calcification.
If you are going to throw my words in my face then please make an effort to get them right.
  

       //I said that information about the pineal gland and its "weirdness" is disappearing//   

       Ah, right. Can you give an example of what you mean by "weirdness", and anything to support your belief that the information has been "disappearing"?   

       //and that scientists are being ignored about its premature calcification// That's odd. I could have sworn you said such information was being suppressed. But I didn't have much trouble in finding papers about pineal calcification (it's an ancient phenomenon).
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       //Can you give an example of what you mean by "weirdness", and anything to support your belief that the information has been "disappearing"?//   

       How about that PubMed article on dowsing?
Did I ever mention that I've seen it done with my own eyes?
  

       //That's odd. I could have sworn you said such information was being suppressed.//   

       I see your memory is starting to go old chap. Maybe you need a new hobby other than picking my ass.   

       //(it's an ancient phenomenon).//   

       Yes, in the elderly. Not in two year olds.   

       // picking my ass.// Well, given that you think with your gut, it seemed the most efficient way of figuring out what you're on about.   

       //Did I ever mention that I've seen it done with my own eyes?// Well, whose eyes would you expect to see it with? I've seen David Blaine levitate - does that count?   

       //How about that PubMed article on dowsing?// Ah, so not an article on pineal woo-woo, than. And clearly that PubMed article has not disappeared - it's on the same journal pay-site as before. As we've already discussed, I don't like research being behind a paywall, but that's a different story. Take it up with Elsevier, Wiley or whoever.   

       Can you actually give any actual examples of actual articles actually disappearing? <NOTE: citing a PubMed article as proof that it has disappeared doesn't really make sense now, does it?>   

       //Yes, in the elderly. Not in two year olds.// Fine. Can you cite any papers showing that "premature calcification" is on the increase? Or has this knowledge only been channelled directly to you?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       I've already provided the information, you just need to read it.   

       Picking my ass to reach my gut won't teach you how to use your own intuition.
As I've said before, intuition and gut feelings were what I was left to work with so that's what I developed.
  

       Society does not get to both educationally hamstring me and then bitch about how well I can get around on my home-made crutches.   

       Fair enough.   

       To stick to the facts, then, and avoid ass-picking, can you answer two of my specific questions:   

       (1) Can you give an example of research which has "disappeared".   

       (2) Do you have any evidence to support the idea that pituitary calcification in young people is increasing in prevalence?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       // (1) Can you give an example of research which has "disappeared".//   

       No I can't. When this pineal gland stuff first started tickling the back of my head there were articles to be found like the PubMed study on dowsing. Now they are nowhere to be found, hence my choice of the word "disappearing". Whether they are disappearing because things are being buttoned up to make money, or whether they are being systematically removed for other reasons I can't tell.   

       // (2) Do you have any evidence to support the idea that pituitary calcification in young people is increasing in prevalence? //   

       I have not researched pituitary calcification. If you meant pineal gland calcification then;   

       "Physiologic pineal calcification was present in 20% of the whole group, in 39% of those 8-14 years age, in 8% of those younger than 10 years age, and in 1% of those younger than age 6 years. Observer agreement was very good (kappa = 0.72). Choroid plexus calcification was present in 16% and was four times as common in those with pineal calcification (38% versus 10%, P = .005), with very good observer agreement (kappa = 0.74). CONCLUSION: Physiologic pineal calcification is more common in children than previously reported, mostly because of improving computed tomography technology. There is an association with choroid plexus calcification."   

       and...   

       "Age-related incidence of pineal gland calcification in children: a roentgenological study of 1,044 skull films and a review of the literature.   

       Winkler P, Helmke K.   

       Abstract   

       Anterior-posterior and lateral skull roentgenograms of 1,044 children aged 0-18 yr were examined for pineal gland calcification. Eighty children with pineal calcification were identified. Cranial computed tomograms (CCT) existing for half of the 80 cases provided confirmation. In contrast to existing reports on pineal calcification in the first decade of life, we found a significant percentage of "physiological" calcification even between 0 and 6 yr of age (range 2.9-4.2%). Contrary to current opinion we were not able to detect any signs of pineal gland tumors in these cases. We were able to confirm other reports which note a steep rise of the incidence of pineal calcification during the second decade of life."   

       (1) // there were articles to be found like the PubMed study on dowsing. Now they are nowhere to be found//   

       Well, that is hard to believe - PubMed generally doesn't remove content, and nor do journals except in the very, very rare cases where an article is retracted (and even then, there will be a statement saying that it has been retracted, and why). In fact, I have to be honest with you, I don't believe you. Do you have anything, anything at all, to support your claim?   

       (2) Uh, [2fries], perhaps I wasn't clear what I meant by "evidence to support the idea that pituitary calcification in young people is increasing in prevalence". Of the two papers you quote, the first says:   

       "Physiologic pineal calcification is more common in children than previously reported, mostly because of improving computed tomography technology."   

       In other (simpler) words, they are saying that it's more common than previously reported, mostly because of better ways to detect it.   

       The second says that pineal calcification is commoner than thought in young children, and that it increases steeply during the second decade of life. In what possible way is this suggesting that pineal calcification in young children is becoming more prevalent?   

       Come on, [2fries], you are better than this.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 10 2016
  

       So are you.   

       I found a whack of old coat hangers, but it's been pretty wet here this weekend. I don't imagine that dowsing twixt the puddles works all that well.   

       I can only pick and choose from the literature left to find fer ye guv... thousand pardons m'lud.   

       //So are you. // Thank you. This is an exciting debate, is it not?   

       However, to emphasize what I said above, I would be very surprised if publications in legitimate journals "disappeared". You may find many of them behind journal pay-walls (which, I have said, I hate) - but they will have been behind those pay- walls since publication.   

       And, again, do you have evidence to suggest that premature calcification of the pineal gland is increasing (rather than just being more common than people had believed)?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2016
  

       Yes.
Fluoride calcifies the pineal gland, and it never used to be in the water, salt, food, pablum, and breast-milk before, and it didn't get there on its own.
  

       Even I can do that math.   

       hmm, I wonder who made sure it was put there?
Gosh darn it, how on Earth would one go about figuring out which portion of society was bent on poisoning the pineal glands of the rest of the planet while pretending to care about all the poor little babies teeth, 'and' with enough capital to instigate such a wide-spread dosage while also being able to keep western medical and dental professionals in the dark about the dangers?
  

       It's a real pickle.   

       I know what my gut's telling me, but then that 'can't' be right.
There's no such thing as intuition.
  

       //Yes. Fluoride calcifies the pineal gland, and it never used to be in the water, salt, food, pablum, and breast-milk before, and it didn't get there on its own. //   

       <sigh> [2fries], now you're just doing this to wind me up. What I asked was whether you have any evidence to show that premature calcification of the pineal gland is any more prevalent now than it was, say, 50 years ago (or whenever they started fluoridating drinking water). Do you?   

       So far, what you have offered is:   

       (1) A paper saying that calcification of the pineal gland is more common than previously thought, "mostly" thanks to better detection methods.   

       (2) A paper saying that it's more common in young children than previously thought; and that it becomes more likely as you get older   

       (3) Your assumption that fluoridation of drinking water (and hence of products made with drinking water) increases calcification of the pineal gland.   

       So, to be quite clear, do you have any evidence to support your assumption? I can further clarify what I mean by "evidence", if it helps.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 11 2016
  

       I get what you're saying, it's just incredibly hard to find information for something nobody seems to be tracking from abstracts. I had read on one site that pineal calcification was unheard of in anyone under nineteen in the 1950's and now its in 2 year olds, and no I can't find the article again.   

       About the closest I can find are two other PubMed abstracts;   

       "Calcification in pineal region had a close relation with age by increasing with aging. The youngest patient was 8 years old. There was a striking increase in number of patients aged from 10 to 39 years. There was a gradual increase in those aged over 40 years. Of patients aged from 70 to 79 years, calcification was found in 81.5%. The incidence was noted no changes in patients aged over 80 years. As for patients aged over 20 years, calcification was observed in 75.1% (82.6% males and 68.0% females). In patients aged from 20 to 79 years, the calcification was significantly higher in male than female. Although there was a different incidence of calcification examined by three types of CT scanners, it was not significant. There was no significant difference between thickness of 8 mm section and 10 mm."   

       I found the "striking increase in number of patients aged from 10 to 39 years." interesting.   

       "A prospective study to ascertain the incidence of normally calcified pineal gland, was carried out in 1000 consecutive patients from different parts of Uttar Pradesh (India), undergoing cranial computed tomography for reasons other than a pineal or parapineal pathology. A total of 167 (16.70%) patients were found to have calcified pineals. Of these 128 were males and 39 females. The incidence rose from 1.16 per cent in the first decade to 31.88 per cent above the age of 50 yr. The percentage incidence of normal pineal calcification was lower than that seen in the Western population. No significant difference was found between men and women in any age group. Although calcification appeared as early as the first decade, this percentage was significantly lower than in the higher age groups. Significantly higher incidence rates were seen in the second decade, third decade and sixth decade onwards."   

       Which isn't evidence but, "percentage incidence of normal pineal calcification was lower than that seen in the Western population." would seem to indicate we're doing something wrong.   

       The point is that we know that fluoride calcifies the pineal gland. I shouldn't have to be proving that it isn't the problem.   

       Whoever is arbitrarily putting the fluoride in everything should have to prove that it's safe Before we make sure every baby on the planet gets a good old overdose of the poison.   

       //I had read on one site that pineal calcification was unheard of in anyone under nineteen in the 1950's and now its in 2 year olds, and no I can't find the article again.//   

       Well, that's a pity. However, one of the articles you cited previously pointed out that the greater-than-thought prevalence of calcification in young children was thought to be due to better imaging techniques. There wasn't much in the 1950s.   

       If, now, calcification is known to become more prevalent as you get older, there is an interesting possibility. Perhaps the recent fluoridation of drinking water actually prevents calcification, so that it is seen more often in people who grew up without fluoride. That's almost certainly not the case, but it's an equally valid interpretation.   

       //About the closest I can find are two other PubMed abstracts// Your first abstract says that calcification is common, and gets commoner as you get older. It neither suggests that the prevalence is increasing over time, nor makes any connection to fluoride, mobile phones, or any other putative causative agent. It is, quite simply, irrelevant.   

       You will, however, note that the abstract you cite depends on CT scans to get estimates of prevalence. CT scans were not around in the 1950s.   

       The second abstract does indeed say that pineal calcification is less common in Uttar Pradesh than in Western populations. I wonder if there are any differences, other than fluoridation of water, between Uttar Pradesh and the West? Incidentally, pineal calcification is about as common in the UK and in France as it is in the US, and bears no relation to the prevalence of fluoridated drinking water.   

       A few additional points:   

       (1) People (real people) are obviously aware of the potential harm caused by excess fluoride, at least in terms of dental (and systemic) fluorisis. One of the papers you referred to earlier emphasized that baby food manufacturers had purposefully reduced fluoride concentrations in milk-based baby foods for this very reason. (Soya-based baby foods are more difficult because compounds in soya bind fluoride). So, to say that medical profession is unaware of potential problems caused by excess fluoride is poppycock*; to suggest (as you have) that it's being added to baby foods is also nonsense.   

       (*I use this phrase in its original Dutch meaning of "soft shit")   

       (2) I have seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that fluoride is responsible for pineal calcification. If anything, calcium is responsible for pineal calcification. Yes, pineal calculi contain fluoride, but any mineral deposit in the body (including tooth enamel and bone) will accumulate fluoride. So what?   

       (3) I have seen nothing whatsoever to indicate that pineal calcification is more common (at any age) in areas with fluoridated water than in areas without; nor that there has been any increase in pineal calcification in areas that have started fluoridating water.   

       (4) The idea that fluoride does something to the pineal gland appears to be one of those urban legends that arose from either a misunderstanding or propaganda about Nazi plans to use fluoride in some evil scheme. As far as I can tell, there was no such scheme (nor would such a scheme have made sense, given the knowledge then or now). So at least the origin of the myth is known.   

       (5) If you Google "fluoridation and pineal calcification", about 95% of the hits are to loony, mystical sites and/or conspiracy sites. The pineal gland is the subject of a huge amount of woo-woo, for reasons that are very hard to make sense of.   

       (6) I could equally well start a myth that the dramatic increase in somatic DNA mutations since the late 1990s is caused by environmental exposure to carbon fibre. (Spoiler alert: we have only really had the tools to look at somatic mutations since the 1990s.)   

       (7) There is no chemical reason why fluoride should particularly cause calcification. In fact, if you know your chemistry, you would know that the other halogens - chlorine and iodine - are equally (un)likely to be the cause. Chlorine has been added to most drinking water in far larger amounts than fluorine for a long time, yet it's not the subject of woo-woo conspiracy theories. Salt has been iodised for quite a while too, but again nobody seems to worry about that.   

       (8) At the end of the day, all these conspiracy theories (fluoride in your pineal gland; chemtrails; Roswell aliens; yada yada) are just so fucking predictable and unimaginative. They all follow the same script; they all attract similar people; they are all so lacking in...well, anything, really.   

       (9) I have to finish by being completely frank. I think you're a gullible nut who has joined a well- publicized but not very creative conspiracy theory and made it part of the focal point of your existence. Dowse me some water using your //...powers// and I will eat my words, both to you and here on the HB.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 12 2016
  

       That's fair.   

       My only problem with the brush off though is that I'm not a conspiracy theory nut.
I am quite literally trying my best to self diagnose my own condition and keep slamming up against pineal gland conspiracies over and over again, such as the word Hypermelatoninism being scrubbed from the internet before I stumbled on quite by accident. It's pretty hard for the doctors to diagnose that which they are not taught.
  

       Many of the articles I've copied above prove that fluoride does indeed collect and calcify the pineal gland yet, to your reasoning, those poisoned need to prove they are being poisoned before the poisoning stops.   

       That's completely insane!   

       I say prove that the shit doesn't cause adverse health effects or get it the hell gone until it 'is' proven.
Not the other way around.
  

       That's fucking evil.   

       //Hypermelatoninism being scrubbed from the internet//   

       That's interesting. Can you give any examples (eg, use the Wayback machine to illustrate a case of "hypermelatonism" being scrubbed from the internet)?   

       //Many of the articles I've copied above prove that fluoride does indeed collect and calcify the pineal gland //   

       Well then, that's progress. Can you show me the bits that prove that fluoride does indeed calcify the pineal gland?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2016
  

       Incidentally, this is how we feel about the development of some EU regulations concerning 'GM' foodstuffs.
RayfordSteele, Jul 13 2016
  

       //Incidentally, this is how we feel about the development of some EU regulations concerning 'GM' foodstuffs.// Are you for or against?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2016
  

       I find that some of them are just based on fear-mongering similar to the fluoride scare, with likely a protectionism racket backing.
RayfordSteele, Jul 13 2016
  

       First off, like I said, it should not have to be proven that fluoride "isn't" a health risk, it should be assumed until proven otherwise, but yes there is conclusive evidence that fluoride causes pineal calcification.   

       "After half a century of the prophylactic use of fluorides in dentistry, we now know that fluoride readily accumulates in the human pineal gland. In fact, the aged pineal contains more fluoride than any other normal soft tissue. The concentration of fluoride in the pineal was significantly higher (p <0.001) than in corresponding muscle, i.e., 296 ± 257 vs. 0.5± 0.4 mg/kg (wet weight) respectively. The low fluoride content found in muscle in the current study was in agreement with the low fluoride content in soft tissues – less than 1 mg F/kg (WHO, 1984). This indicates that the method used in the present study had been properly executed; that fluoride in the pineal gland was endogenous and had not been introduced to the cadavers since the time of death, e.g., via the preserving formalin fluid. However, the pineal gland is unique in that it can be classified as a soft or as a mineralizing tissue. In terms of mineralized tissue, the mean fluoride concentration in the pineal calcification was equivalent to that in severely fluorosed bone and more than four times higher than in corresponding bone ash, i.e., 8,900 ± 7,700 vs. 2,040 ± 1,100 mg/kg, respectively. The calcification in two of the 11 pineals analysed in this study contained extremely high levels of fluoride: 21,800 and 20,500 mg/kg."   

       [link]   

       Checking the wayback machine for the day I stumbled on Hypermelatoninism will have to wait for after work. I've never used the program before so that could be difficult.
There was about a month-long period between finding the word and disclosing here on my Pinealopoly Game posting.
When I found the word there were only two coherent hits left and two pages of hits that read something like word-soup with random hyperlinks to various pharmaceuticals scattered throughout each document. For example:
  

       Tree Wednesday with not having forklift [Abilify] denting mango December from uphill going because front garbage [Abilify] hosed rubber machine speaking hammer thought todays many [Abilify]...   

       Every hit after that was the same word soup, but different drug name.
On the day I mentioned this here every one of those word-soup pages redirected to various locations in Pittsfield Illinois for about a twenty minute period before disappearing entirely.
  

       That mention here has since disappeared but if someone able to read content deleted from the halfbakery searches deleted postings for the term "Pittsfield Illinois" that will narrow down the wayback machine search to the exact day that the shenanigans went down and they can see it happen after-the-fact for themselves.   

       // [link] //   

       NOW you're getting warmer. The link is to what appears to be a thesis extract, reproduced on a site calling itself "Meridian Energies" - that is not a very encouraging sign. However, it's a start.   

       I presume you have already checked PubMed for her actual publications. As far as I can see, there is one (in Caries Res.!), reporting that fluoride accumulates in the calcium-based deposits in the pineal gland.   

       //shenanigans// I assume what you saw was related to search- engine optimisation-type stuff. I don't know much about it, except that it is or was common to hide lists of random words on web pages so that they would be found by search engines.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2016
  

       If you want a laugh, watch their presentation on 'Water - The Great Mystery.' Lots of hype mysteryish-sounding nonsense claiming that water is some strange compound that scientists don't really understand thrown in with religion, mysticism, random old people with beards, and the prerequisite Indian music for authenticity, because despite their ineptitude with democracy and corruption, Indians are wise and stuff with regards to mystical hocus-pocus. Really great marketing job. Looks like an optimized, target-screening job, like a highly polished version of a Nigerian 419 scam for the gullible.   

       Still, the laughability of the host site doesn't necessarily invalidate the paper I suppose.
RayfordSteele, Jul 13 2016
  

       //I find that some of them are just based on fear- mongering similar to the fluoride scare, with likely a protectionism racket backing.//   

       Yep. I agree, and Europe is paying a price (literally) for its attitude toward GM crops. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the main commercial players in GM.   

       Strangely, synthetic biology is far more radical than old-style GM, but has a much better image, at least here in Yurp.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 13 2016
  

       Just wait 'til you ask someone to eat it. Sure, they'll implant a heart printed from a CAD model and grown out of a petri dish, but just try and feed them a steak from a cow who was fed Soylent Green...
RayfordSteele, Jul 13 2016
  

       //I presume you have already checked PubMed for her actual publications. As far as I can see, there is one (in Caries Res.!), reporting that fluoride accumulates in the calcium-based deposits in the pineal gland. //   

       Yes, and I find it strange that there are not many studies to derive information from.   

       // I assume what you saw was related to search- engine optimisation-type stuff. I don't know much about it, except that it is or was common to hide lists of random words on web pages so that they would be found by search engines.//   

       No. I waited for a month to see if was just some glitch that would fix itself.
To redirect en-masse to Pittsfiled Illinois for twenty minutes, and then vanish on the exact day that I decide to mention information here is too coincidental to be passed off as hashtag bombing.
If that was the case those pages would have remained because nobody would care.
Apparently somebody cared.
  

       You can obfuscate the facts, redirect attention, and straw-man the poisoning of childrens' entire endocrine systems to the Nigerian Prince scam all you want, but the point is it should have to proven that fluoride 'is' safe before being put in bloody everything.
Instead the opposite is demanded while our kids are absorbing poison and their endocrine systems are being compromised.
  

       Nobody is bothering to look into it...but we should all trust authority on this matter like good little sheeple.   

       //You can obfuscate the facts, redirect attention, and straw-man the poisoning of childrens' entire endocrine system//   

       You see, [2fries], __that__ is why there is not more work on the effects of fluoride on the pineal gland.   

       Any serious researcher looking at the subject will just be horrified by all the conspiracy theories, woo-woo, mysticism and third-eye crap that's out there - certainly there is a huge amount of it. So, no researcher is going to touch it with a barge pole.   

       Yes, it's possible that fluoride has adverse effects on the pineal (or, indeed, the adrenal, the pancreas, the anal sphincter or anything else). It's also possible that additional research is warranted. But if I were in that field, I would find something else to work on, that is not the subject of so much tombollockry.   

       It would be ironic, would it not, if the infantile woo-woo of adults deterred serious researchers from looking into something that might impact on infants' health?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 14 2016
  

       //Apparently somebody cared.//   

       Either that or it just picked up the word from, say, recent postings here due to your recent activity as bots do, and then dropped it as not that useful as a magnet.
RayfordSteele, Jul 14 2016
  

       To suggest that there's a conspiracy theory is nutty but not remarkable. However, to suggest that there's a conspiracy theory in which people put information on the web in plain view, but then take it down as soon as [2fries] searches for it, is creative insanity.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 14 2016
  

       //Any serious researcher looking at the subject will just be horrified by all the conspiracy theories, woo-woo, mysticism and third-eye crap that's out there - certainly there is a huge amount of it. So, no researcher is going to touch it with a barge pole.//   

       I know. That's the problem.
Fling enough (you don't wanna be like that guy do ya?) propaganda and you can get people to ignore almost anything... even their kids getting poisoned.
  

       //But if I were in that field, I would find something else to work on, that is not the subject of so much tombollockry.
It would be ironic, would it not, if the infantile woo-woo of adults deterred serious researchers from looking into something that might impact on infants' health?//
  

       See?
Your conditioned response controls you. Woo-woo shouldn't sway you from forming your own opinion regardless of the majority consensus. This isn't junior high school anymore.
  

       ////Apparently somebody cared.////
//Either that or it just picked up the word from, say, recent postings here due to your recent activity as bots do, and then dropped it as not that useful as a magnet.//
  

       At the time I was researching visual snow and attempting to determine if there were visual capabilities other than the eyes which might be overlaying normal sight.
Nothing pineal related before I stumbled on the word hypermelatoninism which led to researching the pineal gland itself which lead to researching fluoride as a cumulative neurotoxin-yet-dished out like candy by dental hygienists to prevent this, quite literal, third eyeball from being open in other people the way mine seems to be.
  

       I see things in my head.
They seem to be accurate for the most part.
So I am not so quick to dismiss "all" of the pineal associated woo-woo.
  

       I got to experience some of that woo before I started trying to figure out why.   

       //However, to suggest that there's a conspiracy theory in which people put information on the web in plain view, but then take it down as soon as [2fries] searches for it, is creative insanity.//   

       The conspiracy nobody wants to look at has to do with the pineal gland, not me.
I just happen to be somebody who's circumstances put me in the position of coming at the subject from the far end of the spectrum (Murphy must really like me...) and so I seem to keep colliding with crap that is disappearing.
  

       I am disseminating the information I find and the conclusions I have jumped to from the evidence I have stumbled across with the tools I have at my disposal.   

       My gut might not be right, but I trust it over my conditioned responses every time.
It knows things I don't so I follow it around like a puppy and learn from it.
  

       It's just kinda what you learn to do when tossed to the wolves as a babe and don't get et... {shrugs}
For me... I can't get the words cumulative Neuro-fucking-Toxin out of my head.
  

       Your'e soaking in it Madge!   

       So, when you go to Vegas, do all of the machines flake out and start throwing quarters at you? Have you ever tried levitating? Controlling the weather with your mind?
RayfordSteele, Jul 14 2016
  

       Nope. Never needed to.
Cleaned up at the poker tables though. Felt a bit guilty about it afterwards. Everybody's tells might as well have been written in marker.
  

       Is there no limit to your pineal //...powers// ?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 15 2016
  

       {shrugs} Learning as I go.
I imagine I could probably do a while lot more than I now can if I had only had a teacher...
  

       Have you considered contacting Yoda? The farce is strong in this one.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 15 2016
  

       Cumulative neurotoxin. Calcified pineal gland. Asymptomatic cascade effect of entire endocrine system. Doctors not taught. Dentists not taught.   

       Film at eleven.   

       No news on the dowsing, then?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       Not yet. I'm in no rush to prove anything to you.
Just hear me now, you can always believe me later.
  

       So, not working then. Ah well. I'm in no rush to believe you.   

       Given your thoughts on fluoride, doesn't it seem strange for you to say that I should believe you pending proof?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       Don't believe me.
Just go right on believing that authority has your best interests at heart.
  

       You seem to be getting confused, [2f]. I'm talking about dowsing now, not fluoride. As I indicated, I have no strong position on fluoride and its potential effects.   

       With regard to dowsing, my opinion is that you are lying either to us or to yourself, and will require evidence to the contrary if I am to change my opinion.   

       I hope that doesn't sound too unreasonable. I am simply trying to be clear.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       // As I indicated, I have no strong position on fluoride and its potential effects.//   

       I know. You should form one.   

       //my opinion is that you are lying either to us or to yourself, and will require evidence to the contrary if I am to change my opinion.//   

       Copy that.
Y'know... If you were to put a fraction of the energy into questioning authority that you put into questioning my claims we all might just be able to dig ourselves out of this shit our great Grandpappy's got us into.
  

       I have a list of things that people want me to have strong opinions about. They include, but are by no means limited to:   

       Whether the moon landings were faked
Whether water has a memory
Whether alien abductions are routine
What's at Roswell
Whether GM crops are the work of satan
Whether mobile phones cause cancer
Whether my star-sign can tell me anything useful
Whether telekinesis is possible
Whether an overly-clean environment is linked to asthma
Whether aluminium saucepans cause Alzheimer's disease
  

       and about, oh, maybe three million others.   

       I therefore find it necessary to filter things, roughly as follows:   

       (a) Is this person two fries short of a happy meal, either literally, figuratively or nominatively?   

       (b) If not (a), is it remotely plausible that they are right?   

       (c) If (b), is it something that is likely to have an effect on me?   

       (d) If (c), is it more likely to have a more serious adverse effect on me than, say, being hit by a car, getting a smoking-related illness, or simply getting old?   

       (e) If (d), is there anything useful I can do about it?   

       (f) If (e), do the aforementioned risks and effort justify my giving a toss?   

       So far, you have failed at (a). With regard to fluoride, if you made it past (a) you would possibly pass (b), but then fail at each of (c), (d), (e) and (f).   

       Finally, I don't think we share any great grandparents.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       Well then hopefully there are people here who have read our feisty little exchange who do not suffer from the conditioned apathy of our generation and are looking in the direction my gut has pointed me, because you're like no help at all man.   

       Thank you. I am pleased to be of no help. I think you are a fruitloop, and helping fruitloops in their pursuit of further fruitloopiness is most unlikely to benefit you or, more to the point, me. I also doubt whether it would benefit mankind, but I am happy to let posterity prove me wrong on that one.   

       I also make a point of never looking in the direction people's guts have pointed, at least not until they've flushed.   

       But do let me know how the dowsing works out, at your leisure. You'll know where to find me.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       Ta.   

       No trouble.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       // helping fruitloops in their pursuit of further fruitloopiness is most unlikely to benefit you   

       But that is the whole point. You can't be a special snowflake if no one is paying attention.
tatterdemalion, Jul 16 2016
  

       Yep, whole point right there tell y'hwut. I'm just such a little attention whore.   

       //...powers// will do that to a man.
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       Again guv, yer word, not mine.
Big difference between abilities and "powers".
  

       You're quite right. It appears that your //robust pineal// gives you //...abilities//.   

       Well, that's something that I'm sure we're all in agreement with.   

       Bedtime for me and my own robust pineal here in the fluoride-free world. Same time tomorrrow?
MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 16 2016
  

       It really doesn't need your agreement to be true sir. I didn't ask for the cards I was dealt, but dealt them I was.   

       Has it stopped raining yet, [2fries]?
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 15 2016
  

       It stopped raining some time ago, but I haven't bothered Max. I've seen what I've seen, done what I've done, and told it like it was.
I don't need more proof that I've actually seen what I've actually seen, but you seem to need proof in order for me to have the right to say that I've seen what I've seen.
  

       I already possess the right to speak my mind without your permission thankyouverymuch.   

       ...but in the interests of letting you see for yourself, perhaps you could help me to figure out a way I can test it that would stand up to scrutiny.
I can't very well witch my own water lines because I laid them and I'm not about to go asking my neighbours if I can dig up their lawns to satisfy the disbelief of some stranger on the internet.
I'd thought to have someone hide balloons filled with water under the sand on a beach, but the nearness of the water-table would make that useless.
  

       ...any suggestions?   

       Anybody worked out magnets sensitivity to humans?
not_morrison_rm, Aug 16 2016
  

       // I haven't bothered Max.// Well, there you go then.   

       The standard test for dowsing seems to be to have a series of pipes concealed below a floor, with water flowing only through one. Or a moveable pipe below a floor. However, since nobody who claimed to be able to dowse has ever passed these tests, you can draw your own conclusions. The unicorn in the box seems to be quite capricious.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2016
  

       [-2fries], do you have a service in your area that you can call prior to digging for construction work - the ones that come out and mark utility lines before you dig? I'm sure not all of their jobs would be appropriate for walking into, but there's a chance some of them might make a good test ground.
lurch, Aug 16 2016
  

       How about this: You are presented with a table with 100 sealed, opaque plastic containers on. Of the containers, 50 contain 1 litre of water; the other 50 contain 1kg of sand. The test is to say which containers have sand in and which have water in. The test is officiated by someone who does not know what is in the containers. This person will mark the containers "W" or "S" following instructions from the test subject. At no time can the test subject touch the containers. I'll leave it to others more practiced in the statistics of test protocols to say what result would be significant but this should be a cheap and easy test to set up and indeed, one which [2fries] could practice at home, given a willing volunteer who can fill and shuffle the containers.
hippo, Aug 16 2016
  

       //What's at Roswell?   

       Errr...Roswell?
not_morrison_rm, Aug 16 2016
  

       //I'll leave it to others more practiced in the statistics of test protocols to say what result would be significant//   

       Well, you'd expect to get 25 out of 50 by chance, with a standard deviation of about 5 (square root of 25). You'd want at least 3 s.d., so something like 40/50 or better. If it were an actual sense, you'd expect 50/50, of course.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2016
  

       Thanks [Max] and one addition to the instructions - the test subject *has* to designate 50 they think are sand and 50 they think are water.
hippo, Aug 16 2016
  

       I like it, but I was thinking more along the lines of fifty containers and only one of them contains water. If it works the coat-hangers should cross over that container every time. I could even have a helper change containers to rule out a marked-deck.   

       The containers don't have to be the same either as long as they're opaque. Might have to put a cardboard sleeve around each one too so I can't use backlighting to pick out the water visually.   

       For that matter why have containers of sand at all?
I just need fifty identical boxes but only one has a water filled container within it.
I don't think it would work if half the boxes contained water unless they were all strung out in a single row apart from one another.
  

       //fifty containers and only one of them contains water.// Sure. In that case you'd need to do it three times in a row to get reasonable proof (1x = 1 in 50; 2x = 1 in 2500; 3x = 1 in 125000).
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 16 2016
  

       Cool.
60% of the time it should work every time.
  

       Why is 1 in 125,000 the threshold for proof?
...and at which point does repetition conclude an ability rather than just freakish chance?
  

       As you yourself said: // If it works the coat- hangers should cross over that container every time.//   

       First point: you're claiming to have a sense. Either you have it or you don't.   

       Second point: you are claiming something extraordinary which, if true, would be remarkable and would demand a large re-think of major areas of biology and physics. You would not reasonably expect people to believe your claim on the basis of what could be a statistical fluke. 1 in 50 or 1 in 2500 is not remarkable (people have won lotteries with far worse odds). Even 1 in 125,000 is marginal under the circumstances.   

       [2fries], you are giving all the indications of not even believing in this ability yourself.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 17 2016
  

       I told you, I saw it done and did it myself like thirty years ago. No idea if I can do it again.   

       You are the one requiring proof.
I'm good.
  

       Well, I once saw a guy cut a woman in half and put her back together again. The medical profession didn't seem that interested in his techniques.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 17 2016
  

       Shh... don't give the airline industry any ideas...
RayfordSteele, Aug 17 2016
  

       //Well, I once saw a guy cut a woman in half and put her back together again.//   

       Did he get written about in a peer reviewed article of PubMed which seems to have disappeared?   

       That'd be a neat trick.   

       //Did he get written about in a peer reviewed article // Nope, that was kinda my point.   

       //of PubMed// Ah, this is a pity because I'd thought we'd covered this, but maybe not. PubMed does not publish anything. It is an indexing service for journals.   

       //which seems to have disappeared? // Ah yes. These are those mysterious articles which you claim you saw once but now believe have been spirited away, and can no longer remember the details of. Wrong, sadly.   

       Also, just out of interest, even if PubMed for some reason removed the indexing of an article, and even if the original journal (in whichever country) conspired with them, how would the journal archives be modified to cover up this gap? Would someone have to fake a complete article of the same length to be inserted in the electronic back-copy? Would the journal also retrospectively change any editorial or correspondence relating to that article?   

       Also, assuming the "vanished" paper had been cited in other papers, would all those papers then have to be edited to remove the citations? How would all of the authors of those papers react?   

       And then of course the journal would need to find all the people who'd downloaded the article and secretly delete their PDFs.   

       And then, assuming the journal also had a print edition, they'd have to send secret agents out to every library that subscribed; razorblade out the pages; and splice in some new pages invisibly.   

       Would I be correct in assuming that you have never actually read any article published in a peer- reviewed journal, but have only browsed PubMed?   

       Would I further be correct in assuming that you have not got the remotest forking idea of how scientific publishing works? I ask only for information.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 17 2016
  

       Yep, that sure is an awful lot of red-tape to wade through to see anything but an abstract of a scientific study which specifically mentions dowsing and the areas of the human body responsible for sensitivity to dowsing.
Yes indeedy.
  

       I think you just like to argue.
But see, I didn't ever do any debate club stuff so you're the only one having fun here.
I've only got my word.
I stand by it.
If I tell you I've seen or done something it's because I've seen or done that thing... and I'm the same guy on and off the net.
  

       The only purpose I've ever been able to see for red-tape is to obscure whatever that shit is wrapped around.   

       I have both seen dowsing and successfully dowsed/ (witched) water myself decades ago.
You really have a problem with that don't you?
Like it just shakes the very foundations of all of everything you've been told or something.
I find that amazing.
This one teeny little thing...
  

       I'll see how much fifty take-out boxes costs.
If I get this crap to work again you have to reimburse me for them when we meet, and If I can't then, the boxes are on me.
  

       I'll toss in the margarine dish full of pure Canadian spring water... gratis..and if that works I'm trying maple syrup next.   

       ...that one's gonna cost ya though. shipping, handling, friggin taps take Forever.
You understand.
  

       //Yep, that sure is an awful lot of red-tape to wade through to see anything but an abstract of a scientific study// Yes, although your local library should be able to obtain whatever article you're interested in. However, that wasn't the point I was making, was it?   

       //I didn't ever do any debate club stuff// Nor me.   

       //The only purpose I've ever been able to see for red-tape is to obscure whatever that shit is wrapped around.// Ah. I fear you are making a fundamental mistake here. The "red tape" (paywalls - that's all) is there to protect the journal's financial interests - just like you can't watch a new movie without paying for it. I don't like it and I don't agree with it, but that's life. Out of interest, does it bother you as much if you have to pay to listen to a piece of music or read a novel?   

       //I have both seen dowsing and successfully dowsed/ (witched) water myself decades ago.// I simply do not believe you. Whether that means you are lying or simply misunderstand is not something I can decide.   

       //Like it just shakes the very foundations of all of everything you've been told // No, not really; if there was any evidence that dowsing worked - any evidence at all - it would be great. We would have a whole new aspect of biology and/or physics to look at. It would be as exciting as, say, the discovery of magnetosensitivity in birds. The problem is that there is no evidence at all that dowsing is a real thing. Scientists have put _far_ more effort into trying to detect "dowsing" than the so-called "dowsers" have. Far, far more. And so we do get pissed off by accusations that we are somehow "suppressing" this shit.   

       //This one teeny little thing... // That statement tells me that you don't have the first idea about how science actually works. The discrepancy between Newtonian and Einsteinian predictions for the motion of Mercury was infinitesimal, and look at what that meant.   

       //If I get this crap to work again you have to reimburse me for them when we meet// Gladly. But you have to be able to demonstrate this ability to me, not just say "Hey, I tried it and it worked."   

       Who knows? Dozens of "dowsers" have been as adamant of their abilities as you are, but have been found not to have those abilities. Perhaps you will turn out to be exceptional not just among human beings, but amongst "dowsers". If so, I will be extremely happy and intrigued.   

       ==== Now, can we get back to the points I made in my last annotation? Can you explain to me how you believe journal articles could be made to "vanish"? I am interested to hear your reasoning.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 18 2016
  

       Don't know. I just see a whole lot of [page can not be displayed] when looking.   

       I did manage to find a single study confirming the ability though:   

       Hans-Dieter Betz Sektion Physik der Universitat Munchen D-85748 Garching
The dowsing phenomenon represents a longstanding puzzle which receives continued attention in almost all countries. Histori- cally, the essential claim consists in the assumption that certain persons are able to locate underground water and possibly other materials without using obvious conventional information or technical systems other than, say, a rod or a pendulum.
A large body of experimental evidence is available, interpreted both as proof by one side, but as anecdotical and fortuitous by the other side. Various investigations have been conducted in the past which yielded quite reliable conclusions, though no general agreement could be achieved in the realm of science.
We report results of our scientific program which we have conducted for some 10 years and which is still continuing in order to clarify some of the basic questions. During the first phase, we tried to find proof for either existence or nonexistence of the debated phenomenon. Within a period of two years some 100 dowsers have been tested by means of sophisticated experiments and a statistical analysis of the results revealed a very high level of significance for the existence of a real dowsing phenomenon.
In a second test program, the performance of a particularly skilled dowser has been examined, who worked on behalf of a government agency and located some 1000 wells in arid areas throughout the world. His success was undebatable. As a consequence, an increasing number of earth scientists began to agree that the matter should be pursued further on a scientific basis.
This led to a third phase of investigation, in which geological experiments have been conducted which are still going on and aim at the skill of dowsers to locate underground anomalies. Experiments with a dozen of gifted dowsers have been carried out. In addition, well location success of a commercially operating dowser is investigated, who is sufficiently talented to give a water-guarantee to his clients. Our latest studies involve the observed capability of dowsers to sense directions of underground disturbances ("reaction zones"); first results of double-blind tests will be presented. Meanwhile the evidence in favour of the phenomenon has become overwhelming and the question to be investigated is no longer whether dowsing skills exist but how well these skills can be demonstrated.
  

       ...   

       I wonder how long this paper on this one teeny little thing will take to go 404 file not found?   

       //Don't know. I just see a whole lot of [page can not be displayed] when looking. //   

       Ah, OK now we're in business - email me an example and I'll take a look. Email is on my profile.   

       re. the cited paper - interesting. I do note, however, that they seem to be relying on the ability of "dowsers" to find well-water (ie, places to bore for water). A good geologist can do that without "dowsing". In fact, when we had a borehole dug, the guy knew to within 10 metres how deep we'd have to go - not a dowsing rod in sight. Not really a proof of "dowsing".
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 18 2016
  

       I liked this: //well location success of a commercially operating dowser is investigated, who is sufficiently talented to give a water-guarantee to his clients// - it's like saying to expectant mothers "I will predict the gender of your baby. I'm so confident of my abilities that if I'm wrong I'll give you 75% of your fee back!".

Also this: //first results of double-blind tests will be presented// - I'm interested in what kind of double-blind test they're running; nothing else in that abstract seemed to suggest they were comparing the performance of dowsers with random people, geologists, farmers, etc.
hippo, Aug 18 2016
  

       // Ah, OK now we're in business - email me an example and I'll take a look. Email is on my profile.//   

       Um... I've been stumbling across this crap since [ninteenthly] clued me in that the way I described my visual perception sounded like HPPD, which lead to visual snow which lead to researching the pineal gland over the last seven years or so.   

       I can't go back through all that crap again man. Start with hypermelatoninism and figure out where every hit but two went and you'll be able to jump ahead of the stuff I had to wade through to get to that point.   

       //A good geologist can do that without "dowsing". In fact, when we had a borehole dug, the guy knew to within 10 metres how deep we'd have to go - not a dowsing rod in sight. Not really a proof of "dowsing".//   

       Don't know. I saw a guy who wasn't a geologist pull it off and I did it myself a few times way the fuck back when. Like I told you. I already know it's a thing some people can do, All of these hoops I've been jumping through trying to get you to even consider the remotest possibility that I'm not full of shit have been entirely for your benefit.
It's tiring, this whole being assumed guilty until proving yourself innocent bullshit over the course of an entire lifetime.
  

       It's a thing. Gird your loins. There's a whole bunch of other 'things' too. Not all of them are teeny little things.   

       //nothing else in that abstract seemed to suggest they were comparing the performance of dowsers with random people, geologists, farmers, etc.//   

       Maybe that's what they mean by a double blind study.   

       I just know that I've yet to lie to you all... so I already know what the end result of the studies will eventually be.
Some people are more sensitive to any given stimuli than others.
Quit burning us alive and stuffing us into closets out of fear and you'll find out that, not only has a bunch of woo-woo been put there to distract you, but that it's also not nearly as rare as it's been made out to appear.
  

       You'll see.   

       I took a class in geohydrology in college some 40 years ago and I still recall quite vividly what my professor had to say about dowsing: "If there is water to be found, it doesn't matter much where you dig. Dig deep enough and you'll find it."   

       He had some interesting thoughts on "cones of depression" unrelated to psychology, too.
csea, Aug 19 2016
  

       //It's a thing. Gird your loins. There's a whole bunch of other 'things'//   

       [2fries], I don't think you understand quite why scientists appear so hostile toward this stuff, so let me explain if I can.   

       Good scientists spend their careers looking for weird stuff - stuff that doesn't fit with what we already know. Relativity; quantum mechanics; antibiotics - you name it. We don't try to avoid weird stuff - weird stuff is what makes transformational changes in science. Weird stuff is what makes Nobel prizes, if that's what you're after. Nobody got a Nobel prize for adding an extra decimal point to a well- established theory.   

       So, quit making out that "we", the "establishment", are in the business of maintaining some sort of status quo. That's just silly and patently untrue.   

       But finding weird stuff is not easy. Most scientists go through their entire careers without succeeding in doing that.   

       So, when someone stands up and says "Hey! Here's a weird phenomenon - humans can sense water remotely!", scientists are going to be attracted to that idea because there is the prospect of finding something truly transformational and remarkable.   

       But then when they check, and find that the phenomenon is not real, and can't be reproduced under reasonably controlled conditions, they will get frustrated. When enough "dowsers" keep saying "Hey!", and when time after time there turns out that there is nothing there, scientists will eventually get pissed off. That's pretty much the situation we're in now.   

       If one person - just one person - could demonstrate "dowsing" under rigorous conditions, the whole situation would change. So far, nobody - not one person - has managed to do so.   

       I do, as it happens, find it offensive and defamatory to be told, time and again, that I or scientists in general are actively "suppressing" these remarkable abilities. It's a complete mis-representation of what science is about and what scientists do.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 19 2016
  

       //I do, as it happens, find it offensive and defamatory to be told, time and again, that I or scientists in general are actively "suppressing" these remarkable abilities. It's a complete mis-representation of what science is about and what scientists do.//   

       Well it's a good thing I never said that then isn't it?   

       Scientists are not the "establishment". Scientists do not suppress their own works, their works get suppressed and have been getting suppressed since before Galileo.
Nothing has changed in our enlightened modern societies.
Scientists are just men and women. There are good men and women and there are bad one's, and then there are those who can be bought, just like in every other profession.
  

       //If one person - just one person - could demonstrate "dowsing" under rigorous conditions, the whole situation would change. So far, nobody - not one person - has managed to do so.//   

       I call bullshit.   

       Frankly in the time that you've been going back and forth defending it, the demonstration could've been neatly videoed and wrapped up by now.   

       All points are made. All parties are entrenched. Either conduct the really relatively easy experiment or let it go.
RayfordSteele, Aug 19 2016
  

       //Either conduct the really relatively easy experiment or let it go.// Been done by others already. But if [2fries] is willing to do it again, I'm in.   

       //their works get suppressed and have been getting suppressed since before Galileo.// Yeah, and pretty much up until Galileo too.   

       You've said that papers are mysteriously vanishing; you can't remember what they were; you can't find any evidence of their vanishing; and there is no, repeat no plausible mechanism to make a paper "vanish" in this age of peer-reviewed journals and PDFs. It's about as ludicrous as accusing 747 pilots of sneaking onto orbit when nobody's looking. Your assertion is, to be frank, just silly.   

       It's also just as insulting to suggest that scientists are complicit in having their work "suppressed" as to suggest that they are suppressing it themselves.   

       //I call bullshit.// Well, there we are - we agree on that one, as I call bullshit too. Can you provide anything to back yourself up with? Or not?
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 19 2016
  

       I'll do the little experiment, tomorrow in fact, but play it through in your heads, I see two outcomes;   

       Scenario 1: Nothing I try can seem to make those dang coat-hangers cross no matter what I do.
This is not proof of the falseness of my words, but it will be taken as such.
  

       Scenario 2: It works like a hot damn and I get it all on film.
This does not prove the truth of my words, and will not be taken as such.
  

       Nice little kangaroo court session you seem to think you can demand of me before I have the right to speak the truth as I know it.
This is not so.
  

       You do not have the right to demand proof from me before I am allowed to speak my mind. I have not given away this right and have no intention of doing so.   

       If you do not like me speaking the truth as I know it you do however have the right to either not listen to me or filter me from your perception.
You have the right to stop putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them as though they are my own.
You have the right to stop spin doctoring dissimilar aspects of our discussion to introduce an "us" vs "them" propaganda.
You have the right to quit giving me ultimatums.
You have the right to step down off that condescending high horse and basically stop being an asshole to me just because you are incapable of extending the benefit of the doubt that the possibility exists that I am telling the truth. (which I am btw in case I missed that point)
  

       I have presented a study claiming the ability to be real.
There has been a PubMed abstract of another study claiming isolation of the human tissues responsible for such sensitivity linked.
...and I have reported my own experiences as it pertains to the subject.
  

       You don't seem to want to address these things themselves but instead to detract from them by attacking me on multiple fronts that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter at hand and everything to do with debunking and degradation propaganda tactics.   

       I've told you the truth as I know it.
Don't like it?
Tough shit.
  

       Prove I'm a liar or stop calling me one. I refuse to be judged guilty until proving myself innocent.   

       That would be a very unenlightened and closed-minded attitude for a scientist to have.   

       // Nothing I try can seem to make those dang coat- hangers cross no matter what I do. This is not proof of the falseness of my words//   

       So, you're saying that if you fail, it's because there really was a unicorn in the box but, golly gee, it must have escaped? Are you saying that your claims cannot be falsified?   

       //It works like a hot damn and I get it all on film. This does not prove the truth of my words, and will not be taken as such.// I can make my ears light up in different colours on video. We were discussing a demonstration in person.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 20 2016
  

       Baby steps Max, baby steps. These kangaroo court appointed fools errands need to run their course first.   

       Nothing conclusive so far but it's been an interesting weekend I really didn't have to waste. So many variables.   

       Limited the experiment to thirty paper containers, (space constraints).
Two bent coat-hangers, three willow forks and a sandwich baggie full of water and my wife switching the container for each attempt later...
  

       No success at all with any of devices even when I knew where the water was.
Then I got a single success but I was wrong in that it wasn't the container the rods crossed over but the one closest to my feet. The my wife wanted to have a go and when I switched containers for her. The baggie had leaked and the container was getting damp underneath but I left it.
Nothing with willow switches but with the hangers she found it twice and the third time was within one container, and she seemed to do better walking east to west rather than north to south because the space determined the layout, but the sound of grass hitting the hollow containers and being an audible cue as to which containers "aren't" the right ones cause me to set it back up on an elevated deck with no water lines beneath it.
  

       Again, I sucked, and she couldn't get them to cross either which makes me wonder if the wet paper touching earth may have had something to do with her initial luck.   

       I'm going to try swivels on the coat-hanger handles, filling the hollow containers with sand as suggested to mitigate sound and perhaps one of those water bulbs stabbed into the ground to rule out suspended water vs ground penetrating water.   

       I'll certainly let you know if I can clue into a way to repeatedly reproduce results. My daughter found the container first try with the willow switch but nothing with the rods. Heh, she says, "That's not easy to feel."
We'll try a bit more after supper.
  

       It's interesting. Something for the neighbours to talk about anyway eh.   

       Well, kudos for running the experiment. Keep me posted.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 21 2016
  

       How are the tests coming along, [2fries]?
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 24 2016
  

       Or not?
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 27 2016
  

       A note related to   

       // I'm going to try swivels on the coat-hanger handles //   

       My understanding of swivels on dowsing rod handles is that they were invented to minimize the ideomotor effect, and thereby distinguish whether A) the movement of the rods is due to some direct effect from whatever is buried, or B) the movement of the rods is caused by minute movements of the hands under the influence of the brain (the brain, purportedly, being what detects the hidden stuff in this case).   

       Therefore, [2fries], if (I understand correctly that you believe that) your ability to detect water underground is mediated by your brain, and if your ability is in fact real (which I'm not arguing for or against—I too am interested in your results), I predict that adding swivels will make dowsing more difficult. (Though, now that I've told you this, you might unconsciously move your hands less or more with the swivels on…)   

       When I was young I tried dowsing with bent coathanger pieces. I think I tried swivels (just bits of drinking straw), but I don't remember the result. I also don't remember any other results, or the nature of the experiments (probably not very scientific).
notexactly, Aug 27 2016
  

       I'd thought to leave a portion of the rods exposed so that they could touch skin.
I can always shorten them if it doesn't look promising.
  

       Pretty much right after my last posting hellacious wind-storms, wild fires, rain and work load have kept us from another attempt.   

       I'll let you know if I can reproduce results... just like I said.   

       Something I've often wondered: Let's suppose that dowsing rods have some mechanism that makes them move towards each other, caused by some action of water under the human body.   

       So what is the mechanism?   

       1. The rods attract each other somehow. Material would presumably be important in this case.
2. The angle of the hands changes slightly. A very small movement of the hands makes a big change to the rod position. The material would not be important in this case.
  

       I have some observations on those mechanisms:   

       1. The bearings can be fixed by using a structure between them, so that the angle of each cannot affect the rods so that they cross using angle changes   

       2. The angle of the hands can be varied at will, and not noticeable. If involuntary, the inwards rotation of the hands is a strange reaction to standing over water.
Ling, Aug 28 2016
  

       The observation is that "dowsing" "works" by conscious or unconscious movements of the "dowsers" hands. As you note, with the bent rods, an arbitrarily small tilt will have a large effect on the rods. The other style of dowsing uses a split, flexible twig which is held in a sort of semi-stable strained position, such that even an undetectably small movement will cause the twig to flip one way or the other.   

       It's sort of the same deal as the old idea about holding a ring on a piece of thread to see if a woman is pregnant with a boy or a girl: arbitrarily small movements of the hand cause the pendulum to swing either back and forth or in a circle. That one actually works, of course: the woman is almost invariably pregnant with either a boy or a girl. Just can't tell which.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 28 2016
  

       [Max], that type of tool might be common, but that's not what every dowser uses.   

       My father's cousin Cliff was a dowser. He used forked cottonwood branches at least 2 fingers wide at the tips, and wrist-sized at the stub end. Not split, nor flexible.   

       (I remember Cliff looking for dowsing sticks before we went to his lower farm for the day. He had cottonwoods at the upper farm, so that's what he used. Didn't want a live one; he said they were "so full of water they didn't care," didn't want a dried one; "It's dead, won't work." Looked for something that had been off the tree for a couple of weeks or so. He'd pick one up, walk to the irrigation ditch, try it, toss it away and go look for another. When Cliff found one he liked, he came walking back to the jeep, wrapped the stick in his coat, and carefully put it in the back. I asked him why he wrapped it up. He said the jeep wasn't good for the stick. "I wouldn't even bring a sheep home from the herd in this thing if I wanted it to survive," he said. So, I'm just about to get in the jeep, wondering if that's a good idea, having a 75 mile ride ahead of us. "What about the dog?" I asked. "You have him ride in the jeep, don't you?" He looks at me with a grin, then gave one of those piercing whistles all of the other country boys could do that I could never get the hang of, and yells, "Hey, Ring! Get in the jeep!" The dog comes bounding along from a couple hundred yards away, makes a quick stop to piss on the rear tire, and jumps in. Cliff laughed, head back, pointed at me in a "there's your explanation" kind of gesture, and we got in and left.   

       I could say "now you know", except you don't, and neither do I, but that's what I saw.)
lurch, Aug 29 2016
  

       [2 fries] A question for you, just because this (why people believe what they believe) is a topic which interests me: Much of the discussion here has been on the experimental evidence that would be needed in order to convince [Max] that dowsing is a real thing which works reliably and repeatably. However, what evidence, or lack of evidence, or set of failed tests would you need, to convince you that dowsing is not real, that it is an illusion caused by wishful thinking, self-deception, confirmation bias and so on? - or would no amount of negative evidence convince you of this?
hippo, Aug 30 2016
  

       I already concede that the possibility exists that dowsing doesn't work. I am not closed minded about any possibilities.
I've just relayed what I've honestly seen with my own eyes.
Something any of us should have be able to do without requiring proof to have that right.
  

       I'm rather fussy about keeping the few rights we have left which haven't been conned away yet...   

       I don't know for certain whether dowsing is real or if the things I saw and did were just incredibly coincidental.
I only know what I've seen and done... and I still possess the right to speak of them if I wish since I don't have any strings of letters behind my name which would be at stake from having the audacity to demand to be able to tell it like it is.
  

       It sounds to me like the studies underway in the link already have definitive proof that dowsing works for some folks, and that pub-med abstract eludes to studies of the underlying mechanisms.   

       Why "I" am having to prove it exists in order to speak about it is beyond me.   

       Three, precisely. And four rights gets you nowhere at all.
RayfordSteele, Aug 30 2016
  

       //Why "I" am having to prove it exists in order to speak about it//   

       You don't "have to" - participation in this discussion is voluntary. I'm here only because I enjoy it. You've made unusual claims, and I doubt those claims and am arguing that they are unjustified. There is no financial penalty if you don't argue back, no jail sentence, and no "have to".
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 31 2016
  

       There seems to be a peculiarly North Murkin confusion at play between *having* a right (liberty, permission, freedom, license) and *being* right (correct, factual, proven, accurate).   

       These are not the same things.
BunsenHoneydew, Sep 01 2016
  

       Truth is truth.
When the truth is not allowed to be spoken simply because the words can not be proven then we all become liars by default.
No thanks.
I'll just stick with being in the right and let scientists decide what 'they' are and are not allowed to utter without looking fools to their peers.
  

       I've yet to have my peers reveal themselves, so I'll just keep learning and telling it like it is like I've always done.   

       ...and wait.   

       Me too :-)   

       // I'll let you know if I can reproduce results//
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 02 2016
  

       The really quick way to find out if this works would be to bury a bottle of vodka in a field, then get drunks to dowse for it. They would be extremely motivated, if you can get them to stop saying "youuure my bestesh ever pal you are <hic>"
not_morrison_rm, Sep 02 2016
  

       This is our current situation.
[link]
Take a seat.
  

       Damn. I was standing up in front of the PC...
Ling, Sep 02 2016
  

       Just touching base here. Any updates to report yet?
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 17 2016
  

       Not anymore.   

       Ah well. Kudos for actually putting it to the test anyway.
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 18 2016
  

       yep   

       //three weeks full time to flip and scroll and swipe and flip and scroll and flip and swipe all the way down   

       I just turn the smartphone upside down, and the latest bits go to the top.
not_morrison_rm, Sep 18 2016
  

       //I just turn the smartphone upside down//   

       Damn you, [nmrm], damn you. I just tried that with my new iPhone8 prototype. The damned thing has this internal orientation sensor and, as soon as I turned it upside down, it made the entire room rotate to compensate. Now I'm picking bits of chandelier out of my arse.
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 18 2016
  

       //I'm picking bits of chandelier out of my arse// Again?! - I suppose at least you've got a better excuse this time.
hippo, Sep 19 2016
  

       //Again?!// I suspect, [hippo], that you are confusing "chandelier" with "Chancellor".
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 19 2016
  

       That would explain why my ballroom is so gloomy
hippo, Sep 20 2016
  

       Well, I don't like to boast...
hippo, Sep 20 2016
  
      
[annotate]
  


 

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