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Stop Evolution

Stopping mutation of the sex chromosomes may be enough to stop evolution
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The most experimental genes an organism has it exposes on the Y chromosome where there is no backup from a "good" copy on another chromosome. Thus the Y chromosome is the crucible of testing and where the fastest evolution takes place.

If a gene has tentatively proved it's value it is duplicated and moved to the X chromosome and fine tuned with more mutations to one of the copies. Again the crucible occurs in the male where half the time the experimental copy of the gene shows up in the male whereas in the female only a quarter of the time does it get two copies of the mutated experiment.

So women's genes are less experimental and less about moving forward with innovation for the species and more about conservation of previous innovation.

So the invention is, in the case you wanted to, somehow selectively stop the mutations of both the X and Y chromosome in order to stop microevolution.

socrtwo, Aug 25 2010

Chimpanzee Y Chromosome is Much Different than Man's http://www.answersi...g/tj/v17/i1/DNA.asp
[socrtwo, Aug 25 2010]

[link]






       Hi [socrtwo], welcome to the HalfBakery.   

       It's a reasonable statement but it isn't really a new idea as such. The Bakery is mostly about innovation; well, yes, there's a lot of bad puns, custard, personal insults and pedantry, but it's supposed to be about new and original ideas.   

       There's a help metafile you may find useful. Read it quick, before the rest of the inmates scent fresh blood, and come after you ...
8th of 7, Aug 25 2010
  

       This fails the thought experiment. It makes sense to have males be the evolutionary laboratory for the species, as they are expendable; not a new idea. It does not make sense for the experiment to be carried out strictly on the Y chromosome. There is no normal mechanism to generalize an adaptive mutation (eg disease resistance) that occurs on the Y to females who lack the Y.
bungston, Aug 25 2010
  

       I didn't say that selection only works on males. A gene that is found to be sturdy is proposed to be moved to the X chromosome where perhaps mutations occur but not so rapidly as on the Y chromosome.   

       Eventually one of the copies of the gene on the X chromosome will mutate again, but now only in 1/4 of the females will they get both copies of the mutated gene. In the males only 1/2 of the time will they get the new X chromosome experimental version gene.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       8th of 7 you say this is not a new idea, but whose idea is it then? Smell of blood...
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       How do you (or for that matter, how does 'the organism') define an "experimental gene"?   

       How does it know what is 'tried and true' and what isn't? If you follow this to it's logical conclusion, you are suggesting that the womb (and any other female-only phenotypes) must have literally popped out of nowhere!   

       Sorry, but the theory doesn't work for me.
zen_tom, Aug 25 2010
  

       [marked-for-deletion] theory - and it's bad manners to delete these [marked-for-deletion] notices - they're there for a reason.
hippo, Aug 25 2010
  

       Do speculative theories get marked for deletions as not being inventions or innovation? How is some wild speculation different from a n insane invention?
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       As for an experimental gene, let's say that it doesn't have to define that, the organism just has to insure there are higher rates of mutation on Y chromosome then all the other chromosomes. And again the X chromosome would also mutate at a higher level although less than the Y.   

       An organism would know something is tried and true because say with each generation a gene moves along the Y chromosome, that is toward one end and away from another. Upon reaching the end of the chromosome, which is really a finish line of sorts, then the cell would know the gene had passed it's survival tests and could be moved to the X chromosome.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       What is the site's ethos, I read the help section. Do you mean it is supposed to be a site for crazy and/or inventions ideas and not crazy/clever scientific speculation?
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       hang on, hang on ... this is rather beautiful   

       book marked for morning.
po, Aug 25 2010
  

       zen_tom, I appreciate you poignant criticism of female selection. As mentioned female mutations would occur too and could change the parts sent to it by the male, although not as fast as the male changes the phenotype.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       -po - Thanks much :-)
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       replace experimental with new   

       gawd I wish i had read this before imbibing a 1/2 pint of nice wine.
po, Aug 25 2010
  

       Welcome, [socrtwo].   

       //The most experimental genes an organism has it exposes on the Y chromosome where there is no backup from a "good" copy on another chromosome//   

       I'm confused. You made it sound like chromosome pairs are identical. They're not. You get one of the two from your father, and one from your mother, for each pair. Almost every pair of chromosomes share a similar set of genes - (including the 23rd: x and y, or x and x) - but even similar genes are not necessarily identical in a chromosome pair. No "good" copies.   

       I might be misunderstanding, but, in the meantime: watch out for sharks. [=]
Wily Peyote, Aug 25 2010
  

       bungston - mutations can occur on both male and female sex chromosomes, it is my suggestions that both occur, it's just that new genes start on the Y chromosome and mutations occur at a faster rate on Y chromosomes versus X ones (an even less for genes moved off the sex chromosomes).   

       An already existing gene could mutate on X chromosome in either a male or female and contribute to say antibiotic resistance in bacteria or disease resistance in higher organisms.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       — Wily Peyote - Thanks for the heads up. The genes are inherited from Dad and Mom, one each but didn't Mendel work with genes say that only have two manifestations or phenotypes, wrinkled skin and smooth per say? Aren't there usually just a few variations for any one gene?   

       I hated genetics in graduate school, so this is not a "field I know" this just occurred to me to be a simple explanation of why there sexes. I have never heard a straight answer before.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       I read the help section better. I see this post is really theory, and Should be deleted unless there are anybody wants this to be a special case.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       Thanks for the quick response, [socrtwo]. Yeah, this is not a "field I know" either, but you gave me some food-for-thought for further reading :)   

       Speaking of the 23rd chromosome, I've always wondered why x-y's have superfluous parts like nipples, but x-x's don't seem to. Hmmnnn...
Wily Peyote, Aug 25 2010
  

       I should know (the goal posts have moved in 9 years) but is theory really a reason for a MFD? shirley not.   

       a theory is an idea - no?   

       mfd - theory //theory - the post explains why the world is the way it is// this one is a novel idea of what might be ...
po, Aug 25 2010
  

       So the invention might be to somehow selectively stop the mutations of both the X and Y chromosome and see if microevolution still takes place   

       Also if you want to stop an organism from microevolving, somehow move the X and Y chromosomes to other chromosomes and get rid of the sex chromosomes, or again disable the genes that deliberately mutate the Y and X chromosome selectively over the others.
socrtwo, Aug 25 2010
  

       If one were going to intelligently desgin an organism to evolve, this process as proposed might work. As it is   

       1: stuff cannot hop off the Y chromosome without a complex and accidental recombination event, and then there is no telling where it might wind up. There are many chromosomes.   

       2: if this were how evolution worked, one would expect the Y to harbor some genes partway thru this process - these genes would not have anything specific to do with maleness but other unrleated things. Yet all the genes on the Y have to do specifically with maleness except for 1. It is a sort of funny one. I do not carry it but would not be too put out if I did. I will leave it to socrtwo to do some reading on the web and learn what this gene is, then return to post for us the answer. I am hopeful in the process he or she will learn some more background on this issue.
bungston, Aug 25 2010
  

       I agree with the MFD theory, but even as a theory, it's bad science. It's attributing intent and method to what is a random process.
MechE, Aug 25 2010
  

       Hang on. //The most experimental genes an organism has it exposes on the Y chromosome//   

       Ah, where do you get that from? At least in humans, the Y is fairly bereft of genes, and I've not come across that theory before. Also, how does the organism put these "experimental" genes on the Y?   

       In general, new genes arise by duplication of existing genes, followed by mutational drift of the new copies. Other things can happen too, but that's the most common route. Genes don't pop up from nowhere.   

       Most often, gene duplication is intra-chromosomal. (The other mechanisms for shuffling genomes are also most often intra-chromosomal). There's no obvious process by which new (or duplicate) genes are "exposed" by moving them to X or Y, as far as I know.   

       There's then the question of what happens to "new" (ie, in most cases, mutated duplicate) genes. If the "new" gene produces a protein with an adverse effect, it doesn't matter (much) whether there are one or two copies, so it shouldn't matter (in very crude terms) whether it's autosomal or on a sex chromosome. If the "new" gene produces a beneficial protein, it will stand a better chance of being positively selected if it's on an autosome or on X, but not on Y (in general), since only half of people have a Y anyway.   

       I suppose the point I'm making is that your pretext, as outlined in the first paragraph, doesn't really make much sense to me.   

       On the question of whether this idea fits here or not, I tend to agree with the mfd:theory. There's no reason why a site shouldn't cater for interesting theories, but as far as I know the HB isn't such a site. And if you want to make it an invention, you probably need to improve on the "somehow" in your last paragraph.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 25 2010
  

       — MechE. You say it's attributing intent to a random process. That it is a random process is an assumption of genetics but part of my point is to disagree with this. If this is bad science but good religion, science should listen more to religion.   

       Don't scientist at least agree that in some sense organisms intend to survive and gene are a tool toward that end? Also aren't organisms assumed to be interested in expanding their numbers, not just maintaining them? In the same way that knowledge and engineering and even evolution seems to generally move in the direction of more complex development and innovation, why do we assume that organisms don't have a drive in that direction and intend to innovate?
socrtwo, Aug 26 2010
  

       — bungston. Thanks for the heads up, I will read up on the Y chromosome.
socrtwo, Aug 26 2010
  

       OK let's put this one to sleep folks, i'll post again with an invention along these lines if I come up with. For now this is MFD: Theory.
socrtwo, Aug 26 2010
  
      
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