Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
h a l f b a k e r y
Results not typical.

idea: add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random

meta: news, help, about, links, report a problem

account: browse anonymously, or get an account and write.

user:
pass:
register,


                                                                                                                   

Please log in.
Before you can vote, you need to register. Please log in or create an account.

Supercognifragileegosymmetricalidocious

... even though the thought of it borders phrenologosis.
 
(+4, -4)
  [vote for,
against]

I can not find any study on this subject so I've had to conduct my own. The only hits I find are my own annotations.
I have noticed for many years now that facial asymmetry, specifically one eyeball situated higher in the skull than the other seems to indicate mental characteristics of the individual. Indeed in many people one eyeball appears dead when compared with the other.
I am sure that there must be exceptions to this rule but I haven't really seen any yet.

It seems to me that people with a raised left eyeball are more extroverted, overachieving, and tend to lean more towards the sociopath end of the spectrum, while those with a raised right eyeball seem more introverted, laid-back, and lean towards the empathic end of things.
Examples of left-dominant eyes would be Donald Trump and Adolph Hitler, while Ganhi and Mother Teresa were both pronouncedly right-dominant.

These are extreme examples but illustrate the point rather quickly.

I have also noticed that mates chosen by those with a dominant eye seem to have the opposite eye as their dominant one, and I wonder whether this is because an individual usually sees most of themselves in a mirror where this trait would be inverted to the observer, so that they feel sense of rapport with others who most closely identify with this inverted image of themselves leading to the old phrase; opposites attract.


The Tell-Tale Heart https://www.poemuse...the-tell-tale-heart
Edgar Allen Poe, 1843 [a1, Jul 21 2021]

Physiognomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiognomy
[xaviergisz, Jul 22 2021]

Appearance and Physiognomy http://www2.psych.u...Rule(2015_HNVC).pdf
warning: 83 page PDF [xaviergisz, Jul 22 2021]

Obviously demented https://stock.adobe...e-someone/309338060
[a1, Jul 22 2021]

And then this https://www.youtube...watch?v=WNxy7uNEAzE
[a1, Jul 22 2021]

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts https://quoteinvest...20/03/17/own-facts/
Who said it? [a1, Jul 22 2021]

Explaining difference between facts and opinions http://images.ucomi...a/1986/ga861227.gif
[pocmloc, Jul 23 2021]

One bigger eye above one smaller eye https://www.youtube...watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
[pashute, Jul 25 2021]

Article on thin slicing and WHR https://www.psychol...y-reveals-about-you
Width to height ratio is covered in part III. Stereotyping is covered in part V. [LimpNotes, Jul 25 2021]

Mormon Glow Study https://www.ncbi.nl...rticles/PMC2998417/
[LimpNotes, Jul 27 2021]

Emotional Modulation of the Pupil Response in Psychopathy https://www.ncbi.nl...rticles/PMC6602524/
[xaviergisz, Jul 28 2021]

Pupil Response to Affective Stimuli: a Biomarker of Early Conduct Problems in Young Children https://www.ncbi.nl...rticles/PMC7188718/
[LimpNotes, Jul 28 2021]

[link]






       If you think Mother Teresa was empathic then you've been mixing in the wrong company.

I, of course have both right & left raised eyeballs. I am extrovert but reclusive; over-achieving yet laid-back; empathic but hate people; I am enlightened yet wrathful; weathy yet poor; generous but possessive and I am both Ant & Dec*.


* That joke stolen from Andy Hamilton.
DrBob, Jul 21 2021
  

       So, this may be a thing, it may not be a thing - but unless you're working off photographs, you have to consider the possibility that your observations are somehow skewing the experiment.   

       Imagine the following thought experiment - an individual with a huge right eye and extroverted personality goes around talking to people and recording their reactions. If those people concentrate on the individual, they might focus on the larger, more prominent eye - and if they're focusing, they might mirror the individual's behaviour - both in terms of their exuberance, but also the way they hold their facial muscles.   

       Conversely, if they're not engaging, they might favour the other eye, or act in a different way. The stats should figure it out in the end.   

       Now extend the same experiment with the following collection of individuals i) large right eye, introverted, ii) large left eye, extroverted, iii) large right eye, introverted and record the reactions of the public based on their encounters.   

       Lots of interpersonal stuff is like operating in a hall of mirrors, people respond and simultaneously telegraph their feelings, generating reflections of reflections and it's all quite difficult to find a first cause. Hence the attempt to identify at least a few additional variables.   

       That's not to say this isn't a factor - but I'd start from a position of healthy scepticism before jumping to this conclusion, at least until you've ruled out other possible factors for your observations.
zen_tom, Jul 21 2021
  

       Bun for the title.
doctorremulac3, Jul 21 2021
  

       //you have to consider the possibility that your observations are somehow skewing the experiment.//   

       Always.   

       // I'd start from a position of healthy scepticism before jumping to this conclusion, at least until you've ruled out other possible factors for your observations.//   

       I've been running this little observational experiment since about age ten or so.
Step-dad had the raised left eye thing and I learned about socio/psychopathic behaviour from him.
I've been able to see the same look in the eyes of others ever since that impressionable age and ask questions of the people who know them to find out if my assumptions about their personalities pan out or not.
  

       <shrugs>   

       I'm 52 now and still waiting to meet anyone with that look in their eye who doesn't share his bent. Impossible to reason with, blind to their own shortcomings, adamantly rejecting any constructive criticism as an affront to the level of respect they feel they deserve without having earned it.   

       Trump has his eyes.   

       I'm just surprised I can't find a single study on the subject.
I keep saying; "well, I can't be the first guy to think of this." and then finding out that, hey, maybe I am.
  

       "...for it was not the old man who vexed me, but his Evil Eye."   

       Yeah, nobody has ever thought of this before <link>.
a1, Jul 21 2021
  

       um... okay.   

       Does mister Poe mention left/right asymmetries and their association with behaviour?   

       Nay knave.
<slaps [a1] with supple ostrich-hide gloves>
"Pistols at dawn."
  

       // left/right asymmetries and their association with behaviour //   

       No, Poe’s narrator was just a madman certain he could spot evil in ONE eye. It’s completely sane to believe asymmetry between a pair of eyes is a way to spot a Hitler or a Trump or your dear ol’ papa.   

       Let’s round up everyone that don’t look right and send them off to the gas chamber, shall we?
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       hmmm, that's not the angle I'm hoping this will take if I am right.
If, and it's a big IF, asymmetry is tied to mental behaviour then it could be used to help rather than slot and ostracize individuals.
  

       We're all bent and blind to our own faults.
By not profiling children at a young enough age to be mentored by those who have overcome the same bent we do a grave disservice to society.
We all feel like we are the first to feel the way we do when we first start questioning our own motives.
How many make the connections themselves?
How many others are left foundering?
  

       I'm just saying it's worthy of research.   

       Recognizing the look in that bastards eyes has panned out for me. I avoid that look like the plague. I imagine that the child subjected to whatever it takes to attain that look got left to become a psycho/sociopath in adulthood because unrecognized it could hide amongst us, and much like my own personality, resents not being recognized early enough to meet others like themselves and have a hope in hell of changing.   

       Profiling children to help them and leading adults to the gas chamber are two very separate things.   

       Not to profile you... but that you jump to one and ignore the other says stuff.
Just sayin...
  

       Oh, of course - "Think of the children!" - why didn't you say so originally? That makes it all worthwhile!   

       And your brilliant, completely new and unique insight that it's the position of the eye sockets that determines character - not skin color, shape of the skull, being left handed, or any other physical traits - will ensure this knowledge is only used for good.   

       "This knowledge" being that anyone with eyes like your father will absolutely be evil, unless someone (notably, trained by"someone who overcame the same bent," in your theory) can teach them not to be. Kinda raises the nature versus nurture argument again, but let's set that aside. Just make sure all the cockeyed kids know the special treatment they get is because they need help. And don't let anyone discriminate against them because of their evil eyes, as that might undo all of your good works.
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       I don't see it as likely. My son's head is quite asymmetric due to difficulties when he was born, but his personality doesn't seem to hold with your hypothesis. But, then again, there are days when he is demon-spawn...
RayfordSteele, Jul 22 2021
  

       // demon-spawn //   

       Must get that from his mother's side, right?
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       //I'm just saying it's worthy of research.//
As xaviergisz's first link makes clear, this has already been researched and the hypothesis has been disproved. The idea is, like the tale, old as time, but was looked on more favourably as part of the 19thC. mania for Darwin-inflected theories of society and human nature. That mania died a slow death and before it died it sired many horrible "sciences" (e.g. criminological positivism of Lombroso, Herbert Spencer's social Darwinism).
calum, Jul 22 2021
  

       //this has already been researched and the hypothesis has been disproved// Hmmm. Maybe that means that it needs even more research then?
pocmloc, Jul 22 2021
  

       // needs even more research then? //   

       Maybe. On the related theme of how some bat-shit crazy notions keep getting revived.
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       Maybe it needs "alternative research"
pocmloc, Jul 22 2021
  

       Yes, to uncover alternative facts.
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       Quite. If the existing facts are not satisfactory, then make up some new ones!
DrBob, Jul 22 2021
  

       People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. <link>
a1, Jul 22 2021
  

       //Must get that from his mother's side, right//   

       He's the spitting image of his maternal grandfather and great-grandfather. My daughter, who's primarily demon-spawn and only good as an exception, is the female me.
RayfordSteele, Jul 22 2021
  

       I did say that if it held true that there would be exceptions.
My own daughter has cyclic third cranial nerve palsy and one of her eyes literally goes dead on an eleven second cycle.
  

       I do not think her asymmetry is indicative of her personality, just as I don't think that nature automatically overcomes nurture.   

       //People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.//   

       Now there's a whole can of epistemological worms.
pertinax, Jul 23 2021
  

       Yeah! See! <sticks tongue out at a1>
DrBob, Jul 23 2021
  

       But head shape being affected by birthing is extraordinarily commonplace. So not so much exceptions as a simple lack of trend.
RayfordSteele, Jul 24 2021
  

       supermarket fragrance lipstick espionage dosage.
pashute, Jul 25 2021
  

       I think that your instincts are correct and your rationalizations are wrong. The sciences that try to correlate body/head/face/eye morphology and personality/behavior have mostly been discarded as pseudoscience. However, your gut instincts have some science behind them. There is a correlation between testosterone, aggression, criminality, dominance, and leadership and a correlating factor is the width to height ratio of the face as measured across the cheekbones. This article on thin-slicing has some information on the subject.<link>
LimpNotes, Jul 25 2021
  

       //There is a correlation between testosterone, aggression, criminality, dominance, and leadership and a correlating factor is the width to height ratio of the face as measured across the cheekbones.//

The same article also talks about being able to identify your religion from your face. Laughable bullshit.
DrBob, Jul 26 2021
  

       //identify your religion from your face. // That's not an accurate statement. The article talks about identifying the Mormon glow, which is a dermatological condition that many Mormons share, likely as a result of healthy eating and clean living which is a core tenent of their religion. It's about identifying healthy skin, and attributing it to Mormons with some accuracy, because there is overlap on the Venn diagram. No where is there talk of identifying a person's religion outside of this context.

Come to think about it, Hitler probably had a similar glow.
LimpNotes, Jul 26 2021
  

       //a result of healthy eating and clean living//

Yeah, because only the chosen people eat healthily & have moral lifestyles, right? Eugenics at it's worst.
DrBob, Jul 26 2021
  

       //Yeah, because only the chosen people eat healthily & have moral lifestyles, right? Eugenics at it's worst.//
Interesting interpretation. How did you come to it? I'm particularly interested in how you came to eugenics.
LimpNotes, Jul 26 2021
  

       //I'm particularly interested//

No. You're just trolling.
DrBob, Jul 26 2021
  

       \\You're just trolling\\ Someone is. I want you to present an cohesive and relevant argument. Use your words.
LimpNotes, Jul 26 2021
  

       In science, I think you'll find that it is usual to subject your theories to peer review, rather than publishing them un-reviewed in a pop-psychology magazine. So, no. It's up to you to prove your position. Try using actual, real science.
DrBob, Jul 26 2021
  

       //So, no. It's up to you to prove your position// Science is not about proof, it's about results. All of the studies done were experiments and yielded results. That you are skeptical is important, but with only a chafed genitalia as your evidence, I am not convinced that I should trust your skepticism over the results in the article. I was hoping there was more to your position than basic skepticism. Apologies.
LimpNotes, Jul 26 2021
  

       // All of the studies done were experiments and yielded results. //   

       Not necessarily. A number of studies were mentioned in the magazine and the article’s author gave their interpretation of the results. Nothing about sample size, controls, other methodology, peer review. Such may exists but were not linked in the article. I’d want to see the actual research papers before judging anyone’s summary of the results. Did you bother to look them up? You’re the one offering up the claims here so it’s on you to back them up.
a1, Jul 27 2021
  

       //Did you bother to look them up?//
Not originally, but I have now. Why would I look them up? I believe the study was sound and I think the interpretations are reasonable. Anyway, it sounds a lot like "I disagree with this finding but I don't want to research the source, so I'm just going to bitch about it and make other people do work for me." Here's the Mormon glow study; it's long but maybe you'll find something interesting. <link>
LimpNotes, Jul 27 2021
  

       // Why would I look them up? I believe the study was sound //   

       Can I interest you in a copy of “ The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”?
a1, Jul 27 2021
  

       //Can I interest you in a copy of “ The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”?//
No thank you. The tiniest bit of research indicates that it is fraudulent and anti-Semitic propaganda. The first clue should have been that no one put their name or reputation on it.
LimpNotes, Jul 27 2021
  

       Ah, at least you're willing to do the tiniest bit of research.   

       The tiniest bit of research will confirm that people sometimes make snap judgments about others' character and personality based on appearance. In a limited, ambiguous setting and with other cues, they might guess correctly a little more often than would be expected by random chance.   

       But to extend that to the degree 2_fries suggested - that anyone with eyes like his father must be evil - or even just pre-disposed to evil (though he says this guideline has never failed him)? He needs to do more than the tiniest bit of research there.
a1, Jul 27 2021
  

       //But to extend that to the degree 2_fries suggested//
Agree. The article has a good section on stereotyping, and that's why I highlighted it in the link description. Thin slicing (something I've done some research on) can be fairly accurate. But it's my opinion, which may or may not be supported, that someone who has a very bad experience will thin slice excessively on the side of caution. And I think 2_fries is picking up on the biomarker for high testosterone more than lopsided eyeballs.

It is also my opinion that thin slicing is a two way street and that we communicate subconsciously before we communicate consciously. So if I saw someone and they reminded me of my dad, and it activated the fear centers of my amygdala which have been sensitized by trauma, there is a good chance that this other person would be able to perceive that reaction using their own thin slicing. An honest gentleman who sensed aversion from a new contact may be willing to stay averted, and discontinue the relationship, while a bully might be attracted to that fear... without even realizing it. Depending on the level of the reaction I give, I may even bias honest gentleman against me because their thin slicing is picking up that I subconsciously think of them as an enemy. And the whole situation becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
LimpNotes, Jul 27 2021
  

       //But head shape being affected by birthing is extraordinarily commonplace. So not so much exceptions as a simple lack of trend.//   

       If birthing affects head shapes so commonly perhaps that in turn affects brain shapes. I'm just spit-balling here but, could be why some ancient cultures used cradleboarding to reshape a babies skull. Maybe their were cognitive effects other than a strange concept of beauty.   

       //2_fries suggested - that anyone with eyes like his father must be evil - or even just pre-disposed to evil (though he says this guideline has never failed him)? He needs to do more than the tiniest bit of research there.//   

       Don't be putting words in my mouth now. I never mentioned evil, (although the bastard was that I think he was made that way, which would explain his knowing how to Stockholm our family so easily... I believe he was the recipient of worse than he could safely dish out a generation after his own beatings), no, I mentioned sociopathy and pyschopathy. Both of these mind sets are geared to attain power over their surroundings and, depending on a given situation, exist dormant in almost every psyche.   

       //And the whole situation becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.//   

       That could very well be true but has not been my experience. I may not be a scientist but I never stop double checking my gut feelings because blindly following them is a sure road to madness.
See, it's not just his look I can recognize in the eyes of others. Most mental illnesses leave their mark in the glints of people's eyes.
  

       // Don't be putting words in my mouth now. I never mentioned evil //   

       I was just taking a shortcut there instead of spelling out so many of the words you did use. Sociopath, psychopath, bastard, impossible to reason with, blind to their own shortcomings, adamantly rejecting any constructive criticism … and so on. I might have missed some.   

       But true enough, you didn’t use the word “evil.”
a1, Jul 28 2021
  

       That last anno I did, but not in conjunction with the original concept.
Evil is a choice. We all knew that kid that used to get kicks from pulling the wings off flies and torturing small creatures, heck I knew one kid who's favorite, (hmmm why does 'favorite' tag as misspelled?), thing was snaring gophers and then swinging them around until their heads popped off.
That behaviour is certainly burgeoning psychopathy... but can't be considered evil because the trait is inherent. That child did not ask to have that particular predisposition and yet it is a spectrum thing. Having the exact same mind set not quite so far over on the spectrum is what lets morticians do their job and EMT responders not puke on the bones jutting out of your body when they first arrive.
  

       Evil is a decision. Once you've been taught that it is considered wrong to hurt things just because you can, you might not understand why that is, but you can choose not to.
Some folks, especially children, can be coerced into making this choice at an age where not only are they too young to understand the consequences of their actions, they believe that they have crossed a line which can not be re-crossed, without realizing that it is more of a teeter-totter type of thing.
  

       You always have a choice.   

       ...or don't you?   

       //what lets morticians do their job and EMT responders not puke on the bones jutting out of your body//
That's how you identify psychopaths by the way. Pupil dilation. Or specifically, lack of pupil dilation upon seeing something horrific or sad. I'd link the study but it seems to irritate the deadbeats if I don't.

Edit: Good on you [xaviergisz]. I'll throw in another one.
LimpNotes, Jul 28 2021
  

       Cool links guys. Thanks. Totally strapped for time and haven't gotten through them all yet... but I will.   
      
[annotate]
  


 

back: main index

business  computer  culture  fashion  food  halfbakery  home  other  product  public  science  sport  vehicle