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Since the properties of fluids so aptly lend themselves to equal distribution...
A system of coffee distribution lines running into every house from a centrally located coffee reservoir. Each distribution line terminates at an equal distance above ground level, onto which can be attached: The Communist's
Coffee Cup, by way of a valve fitting at the bottom of the mug.
If you want coffee in the morning, you need only brew up a pot, take the coffee to your regional distribution center, pour it in then wait patiently by your designated cup for everyone else to pitch in.
Hot beverage district heating
Hot_20beverage_20district_20heating
Similar ... [8th of 7, Mar 09 2010]
TWO CUPS MAD
Two_20Cups_20Of_20Coffee
No idea about the caps, it just seemed right at the moment. [blissmiss, Mar 09 2010]
The Coffee Party
http://coffeepartyusa.com/
The socialist/liberal countermovement to the teaparty. Believes that government can work. [jutta, Mar 10 2010]
Red Bush Tea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooibos
The middle "W" is silent ... [8th of 7, Mar 10 2010]
NPR April 1 1996 Starbucks Coffee Pipeline story
http://www.npr.org/...php?storyId=5293443
[nomocrow, Mar 10 2010]
Snow-cialism
http://articles.bal...al-health-care-snow
A quick guide to the flaws in socialism, and in the human condition. [RayfordSteele, Mar 11 2010]
[link]
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I imagine it would be the best tasting cup of coffee one ever had, [ZT]. |
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Problem is, everyone around here drinks TWO CUPS
OF COFFEE, or none at all. |
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//TWO CUPS OF COFFEE// heretic |
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In Russia the cities usually used centralized steam
systems for their hot water. In locations where
permafrost was an issue this meant huge pipes that
ran alongside of highways and had to be diverted up
and over every street crossing. Of course the system
was down for maintenance seemingly 9 days out of 10
and the water would be cold anyway by the time it
reached your tub. This is one reason I suspect why
Russians don't have long life expectancies. |
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Let no person go without coffee. This is Utopia. |
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[IT], the idea hit me whilst listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio. That should clear things up, yes? |
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I've always wondered who or what Rush Limbaugh is/was. I'd
assumed it was some sort of speed-based competition to
dance underneath progressively lowered poles, but this
wouldn't make sense on the radio. |
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Why not ? If you had a big enough radio, there would be room for the poles and the stands. One of those big 1950's radiograms would do. |
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[-] for being a thinly disguised reference to party politics in a country thousands of miles away. |
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[-] Don't like the political agenda and, to be honest, the idea. |
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yeh, don't mix politics with my morning Java. it's just wrong. |
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First, this was an NPR April 1st joke, and is no way original.
So, [marked-for-deletion] bad science, bad form,
whatever. |
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Second, calling the President of the United States a
communist is exactly the sort of inaccurate, fuck-brained
characterization that a drug-addled blowhard like Rush
would do, and is really just thinly-veiled advocacy. |
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Third, you guys ran a perfectly good economy into the
ground over the course of eight years (so you do in fact
owe us several cups of coffee), but your overall ability to
fuck up a two-car funeral procession kind of says
something about your ability to pull something like this
off. |
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this political failure might have been funnier if you had used TEA. |
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"...two car funeral procession."heh, I like that, never
heard before. (And true). |
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// First, this was an NPR April 1st joke
Hm! I don't remember that one. Do you have details or a reference? [Later: awesome! Thanks!] |
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This would be hideously impractical for a number
of reasons. First and foremost is the incredible
ease with a which one could contaminate the
coffee supply either by accident or intentionally
with disease or poison. Second of all the coffee
would likely be stale or lukewarm upon it's arrival.
Beyond all that the morning commute to put your
coffee in would be so prohibitive that most people
would likely cheat the system, consuming their
own coffee instead of putting it into the
communal pot. A better idea would be to collect
the components of the coffee (the beans and
water), use them to prepare the coffee at a
central location and then distribute it through a
national grid type coffee system. Even then,
however, the maintenance of the system would
make it cost prohibitive.
And how would you get people to sign up for your
coffee system? Actually if you charged them a
small subscription fee per month and then sent
them really great coffee you would probably get a
modest following, but the timing of the delivery
could be an issue.
What's with the name? It doesn't make any sense. |
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[Jutta] April 1, 1996. Starbuck's billion-dollar coffee slurry
pipeline. |
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//This would be hideously impractical for a number of
reasons.// |
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OK, [+] for that point alone. |
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A bit tribalistic there, don't you think, <nomocrow> |
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I've always thought that "to each according to his need" would serve best as a whorehouse slogan. |
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//"To each according to his need" would serve best as a
whorehouse slogan.//
No, "To each according to his ability to pay" would serve best
as a whorehouse slogan. |
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//The Coffee Party ... Believes that government can work.//
With enough coffee, *anything* can be made to work. |
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// With enough coffee, *anything* can be made to work. // |
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<voice of Tim the Enchanter>
Look at the bones!
<voTtE/> |
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I leave the HB for one day and this happens? |
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//calling the President of the United States a communist is exactly the sort of inaccurate, fuck-brained characterization ...// |
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This government *is* taking huge strides towards socialism, which is but a stone's throw away from communism which, last I checked, doesn't work. |
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I figured requiring every coffee cup to be on a level *plane would have been the first attack... |
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No, "to each according to his ability to pay" is the reality of the whorehouse. Slogans are used for marketing. Look that up. It's an important point. |
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[theircompetitor] I bow to your superior expertise in the
fields of marketing and prostitution. |
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//marketing and prostitution// redundant that. |
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finally, someone who understands :) |
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I feel like Nicholas Parsons: I deliver the set-up line, and
FlyingToaster gets the laugh ;} |
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No worries <mouseposture> you had me at hello :) |
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I guess one would have to define what is meant by "works" for any political system. But if the general question is whether "to each according to his need", with state driven redistribution, brought about meaningful well being for any meaningful size of population, than no, Communism did not and does not work. Whereas greed, for all its faults, can be shown to have gotten us quite far from our cave origins. |
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For my progressive friends, arguing against that point is not like arguing against global warming -- It's more like arguing against evolution. In fact, it's precisely arguing against evolution. |
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No government on Earth is a perfect implementation of some political idea, and the US is perhaps as far from an Ayn Rand vision as North Korea or China is from Marx's (in their different ways, obviously). |
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But as a general concept, redistribution of wealth, which is practiced to some degree by all the nations on the planet, has built in limitations because of the famous (recently) "Moral Hazard" that it introduces. |
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Even the "progressives" that run our government understand some degree of Moral Hazzard -- hence the mandate to buy health insurance in the proposed legislation that is being fought over -- without the mandate, those who are healthy won't seek insurance until they are sick. |
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Capitalism presumes -- correctly - that self interest is the best driver and predictor of behavior. But it does not presume the absence of common purpose, so the Army analogies are flawed. From a purist's perspective, in the US at least -- the purposes of government are spelled out in the Constitution, so an Army is a manifestation of the common defense -- or the price of citizenship. Coffee, on the other hand, is still a privilege. |
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[Zen], you seem to be taking an all or nothing view of the political structures in question. If you are insinuating that I am proposing a society (or better, a lack thereof) which no one relies on anyone else, you would be wrong. Man, unfortunately, is a social creature, and combined efforts are more conducive to quality of living then individual effort, but this is not a black and white scenario. Government is a continuum of the inverse corollary between freedom and security. |
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Why should the government of the United States of America stray so far from the philosophy on which it was founded? John Locke's contractual theory of government states that the government should be no more intrusive than is necessary to provide the most basic of security to it's constituents. |
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The biggest problem I see with society, now-a-days, is that it has strayed so far from our biological foundations. I.E. : Women not staying at home to nurture, men staying at home instead of working, men marrying men, no child left behind (at the cost of holding all the other children back), OSHA making employment in the U.S. exceed acceptable cost benefit ratios, etc, etc, ad nauseum. |
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Your collectivistic utopia is about as far removed from the nature of the human being as one can possibly get, [ZT]. If it is you and me stuck on an island, I will work congenially with you as long as it is to *my* advantage. But the moment I deem it is necessary for *my* survival, [ZT], I will kill you, dismember you and cook you on a spit. And anyone is a god damn liar if they say otherwise.
Your genes are not worthy of propagation if they do not contain the drive for self preservation, because self preservation is, in itself the gestalt of life. |
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Is this a good time to mention ants? |
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Only if they are French and have pens. |
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[zt] if you're going to give an example of communism using two groups of people which organizations are decidedly non-communist in any way shape or form, at least get it right: |
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The accepted proper comparison is ninjas vs. pirates |
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it's a good time to mention ants if you want to live underground and have to glance upward constantly in fear of being stepped on when you venture outside. The whole point of this disagreement is that you should give a fuck about not being stepped on, and not about the colony. The colony will do best, over time, by every ant being careful and working hard. |
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[z_t] -- do not confuse cooperation and "social" with socialism. Take a topic I know something about :) -- social games. Don't confuse Farmville with collective farming. 100 Million people play Farmville (village) -- pretty social. How many will play a game called Collective Farm? |
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The best balance is probably the result of competing self-interests and regardless of what you call any political structures that we were in on the way, it's how we got to where we are. |
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It is no more a surprise that people don't want stuff taken away from them than it is a surprise that people want stuff given to them. But in the same way that the test subject will keep pressing the pleasure button, someone has to be there to build the button. |
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Mike, you'd like this article on 'snow-cialism' I've
posted. |
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//The accepted proper comparison is ninjas vs. pirates//
I thought it was clowns vs. mimes? |
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In a tag-team, would the clowns prefer the ninjas or
the pirates? |
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I'm thinking ninjas and mimes (both groups deadly
silent), teaming against the pirate/clown syndicate,
(fans of colorful outfits). |
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Ian, you might find that article interesting, also. |
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I resemble that brai... remark, Ian, as someone who has lived on both sides of the Curtain, I think I'm as qualified as anyone to judge how it has impacted me -- and I'm fairly convinced I know. |
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Anything typed here, by anyone, is necessarily a simplification, and a fairly enlightened argument can be made that self interest includes clean water, or not having to stumble upon the homeless poor as you walk the street. |
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I'm not for throwing mama off the train, either, or some sort of Darwinian feeding frenzy. I'll even acknowledge that the "C" word is used as a lightning rod by many on the right -- but it doesn't make the leanings of the current US govt. any more centrist, by our definition, nor does it mean that opposing it is somehow less than intelligent ( a technique used as a lightning rod by many on the left). |
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Redistribution of wealth makes sense so long as it keeps the peasants with the pitchforks out of the garden, but not when it moves a couple of peasant families into your house and you're in the Gulag, which is where the Soviets ended up. |
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But government versus economic enforcement is the whole crux of the argument, isn't it? |
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There are any number of studies that we are too optimistic and misjudge risk/reward ratios -- it's why we buy lottery tickets and gamble. But government cannot ever fix it -- evolution may, eventuuuuualy. |
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Government is smarter when it swims with rather than against the current. That's not an argument for following public opinion -- it's an argument for taking human nature and unintended consequences into account when affecting the lives of its citizens in major ways. Like the health care thing -- it's made me say to my college age daughter -- you'd be crazy to become a doctor, become a lawyer -- what's the consequence of that kind of decision, multiplied? |
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//isn't it in my best interests to feed him the occasional bone? //
Leaving aside the obvious double entendre potential, I would say not. It would be better to kill and eat MikeD on day 1. This relieves you of both your security worries and means that the islands resources will last twice as long, making it more likely that you will survive until the rescue ship turns up. I'm not sure if this really adds anything to the debate but there you go. |
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Actually, your best interest would be to find a way to
mentally enslave MikeD to perform your grunt work,
and to get him to enjoy being enslaved while not
realizing it. |
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Society should always have a surplus of lawyers.
Keeps the land well-fertilized for the farmers. |
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One of the most interesting discussions I've seen in a
while...carry on, please. Informative and done
without personal barbs and insults. Yay. |
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// Informative and done without personal barbs and insults // |
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We noticed that too ... what's gone wrong ? |
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// collectivist utopia // |
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Ahhh ... sounds like our cue. |
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Between [MikeD]'s communist scenario and [zen_tom]'s individualist one lies a far superior compromise system; coffee insurance. |
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In my town no-one actually likes coffee, but people sometimes need it. The coffee insurance industry addresses this occasional need with great efficiency; only about one third of coffee spending goes to covering the costs of the coffee insurance industry, leaving a very generous two thirds to be spent on actual coffee. |
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The only one to lose out is my whining neighbour, who has found out in advance that he's going to need coffee and therefore can't have any. I have been careful enough not to find out whether I'll need any coffee or not, so I can. This is clearly a huge improvement. |
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[Ian_Tindale]//a good one// There's the rub. You have to do
your job well to succeed as a bank robber, whereas a
mediocrity can make a living in a respectable profession. Of
course none of *your* parasitic offspring would be
mediocrities,
but what are the others' supposed to do? |
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The serious point I was trying to make -- pearl before swine, I know :) -- was that the return on investment for being a medical doctor is and has been dropping, and that will likely have inevitable consequences to the quality of care -- if for no other reason than the ratio of doctors to patients. |
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So a fairly obvious, if unintended consequence of any efforts that make being involved in health care less profitable is that it would also have less able practitioners. |
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Such dynamics are typical of situations in which the government tries to do the right thing while ignoring self-interest, enlightened or not. |
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Markets of course don't offer magical solutions -- physics plays a role too -- this is why despite the fact that finding a way to eliminate oil would be the most profitable invention of all time, we still use it. |
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Nice inoffensive title to your idea. I commend you for that. |
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'One more cup of coffee before I go. From the valley below. Your sister sees the future like your mother and yourself. You never learned to read and write, there's no books upon your shelf....
One more cup of coffee for the road (Bob Dylan) |
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"Beverages of the People, by the People, for the People" |
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Ian, the more you pay doctors, the more people want to be doctors. That is the correlation. |
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This is not some magic oversimplified relationship I construct in my head. Both high school and college graduates make decisions at least in part based on what their future career offers -- surely some are devoted to a vision and will pursue it regardless. |
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But if economics enters into the equation, then becoming a doctor requires a significantly larger investment in time, due to residency requirements, and money. Becoming a specialist, which typically is more lucrative, takes even longer. |
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A top neurosurgeon -- say a Sanjay Gupta without the CNN contract -- can make a million $US a year. To become that, one would of course have to have abilities, but also spend perhaps as much as 6 postgraduate years studying, with Harvard Medical setting you back a few hundred thousand dollars. |
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And equally able Ivy League graduate that goes to Harvard Business School instead, even in the current times, will be making a solid 6 figure income after only 2 years of school, and if he's hired into a top tier firm, he'll make much more than that million, and quickly. |
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Now we can wring our hands as to why our value system is "distorted". Or we can claim that you shouldn't even be a doctor unless it's your calling in the way that, say, being a poet or artist is someone's calling. |
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But the reality is that the best and the brightest are continuing to be disentivized from the medical profession. |
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So the current struggle in the US, spearheaded from the left, is looking at things from entirely the wrong perspective. They are talking about driving costs down by creating more bureaucracy, and they are talking about paying doctors less, and they are not addressing malpractice, which has already resulted in certain kinds of specialists practically disappearing -- have to go to a hospital to access an OB/GYN in many areas because they cannot afford to be independent due to the malpractice insurance requirements. |
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I must say, however, that if we don't have agreement on whether or not people choose who they want to be and what they want to do based in large part on the economic opportunity it affords, then I'm afraid that we don't have much of a vocabulary for a common discussion. |
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Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra. |
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[RayfordSteel], I did like that article. It cuts straight to the core of the problems inherent in such systems of government. As does "The Little Red Hen". |
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As to government running healthcare, some of the most piss-poor health care I have ever received was from military (read: government ran) doctors and dentists. These "professionals" choose lower pay and positions in which they cannot be sued for a reason. |
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I have been thinking about collectivism a lot, lately and have come up with a few paradoxes, I would like to share ... |
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Military bases are very close to the utopia collectivism strives to be. When I park at one of the base facilities, I feel no need to lock my car, or even remove my keys from the ignition for that matter, regardless of what high-dollar items I may or may not have in plain sight. If I, (or anyone) were to break-down on base, there would be a surplus of good samaritans offering a jump start (most having jumper cables handy) or to assist with pushing the vehicle out of harm’s way. Were someone to be injured on or near base: again, there would be a surplus of individuals stopping to render aid. I have seen and participated in this several times. But there is a fundamental paradox here, because service *is* voluntary, and were this structure of rule forced upon the people, it would most likely be *those soldiers* who would stand up against such organized violations of volition. |
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Referencing [RayfordSteel]'s article: Everyone would do their fair share of shoveling, in the military because NCO's such as myself would be there to put a foot in the asses of the asses. But most people would not be very happy living under such control. Our collectivism works because I have the power to (borderline) torture those under me, as those above me have over me. This power must be given voluntarily, or it will be vehemently apposed. |
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The paradox being: Collectivism will not work because of people like me. I will fight to the end to secure what rights I feel entitled to, and I am tough enough and callous enough to win that fight against a bunch of soft and coddled collectivistic pansies. Your peace-loving collective cannot be realized until you rid the world of animals such as I ... but you can't get rid of me without using others like me. |
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// it’s just as much a skill set as any other career, only it pays more// |
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Remember there the risk/reward issue too. The risk of being caught by authorities - or 'rubbed out' by competitors. |
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//They are talking about driving costs down by
creating more bureaucracy//
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Surely by taking the insurance companies out of the
equation there will be less bureaucracy?
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It was borderline before, but the comments push it over the edge. [MFD] Rant |
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[MFD]? T'would be a shame to kill all those fishies, [MechE]. |
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(Assuming you are an American citizen): Don't say I didn't warn you when you are driving a victory car (formerly GM) to the victory clinic to get your anthrax shot (deemed mandatory by the ministry of health). |
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I'm not saying the discussion doesn't need to be had, I'm saying this isn't the right forum for it, which is why I'm avoiding any politcal slant to my comments. |
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That article about snow-cialism is asinine. Its premise is that socialism does not work because people are more interested in working towards their own advantage than they are working towards the advantages of others. The flaw in the argument presented by the article (and others like it) is that it entirely fails to recognise that socialism is about marginal (that is asymmetrical) collective sacrifice - i.e. paying a bit more tax, ceding control of certain aspects of national life to the State - in return for gain not for everybody and almost certainly not for you but for those who need it most. The article suggests that everyone who supports socialism should be out digging people's cars out of the snow because it necessarily follows that if someone is in favour of giving the hard up a hand up they should help all people at all times; it posits socialism as a kind of morally-obliged mutual servitude which is (a) a horriffic concept and (b) a gross and apparently deliberate mischaracterisation. |
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I should say that I have no beef with Tories and their ilk - they are free to believe and what they like and strive for the implementation of those beliefs. I do have beef, however, with shit like the Snow-cialism article, as it wilfully mischaracterises the thing it purports to critique. |
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Just to add to calum's observations. I would also note that the sample group, i.e. those people in the author's neighbourhood who own a car, is also highly selective. |
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Yeah, I wonder what would the statistical analysis of behaviours be were a similar snowy situation to arise in a more rural community? Farmers in the UK tend to pitch Torywards politically while generally doing a great deal more to help their neighbours than urbanites do/would. |
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calum, the article is a caricature. The problem with the "if the State doesn't do it, no one will help those who need it most" argument is simply this: Once the State does it, the # of those who need it most grows uncontrollably. Worst, the bureaucracy and corruptibility of the State nearly insures that in fact a good portion of those who really need it get screwed by all those who are taking advantage. |
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The home care program in NYC is a great example of this. The program in theory saves money versus placing the elderly in a nursing home -- a good idea, certainly for the quality of life. But I know literally dozens of families who in fact create a "no-show" job out of this scenario, and then split the money with the theoretical home attendant, who is then working some other "for cash' job and is not paying taxes. This is routine and is costing NYC and NYState alone -- easily -- in the billions. |
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It's Other People's Money. It appears, to me anyway, that this is a natural law. Sure, altruism exists too, and may have genuine benefits from an evolutionary perspective. But mostly, people take what they can get away with. |
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The same issue applies to insurance <stupop> -- that's why insurance fraud is so rampant, and that is why involving insurance in routine health care is a spectacularly stupid idea, too. |
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And you cannot fix it. No technology, no gps ankle bracelet, no "eliminate fraud and abuse" piety by an ambitious politician can fix it. Money always finds a way. To quote Mamet, that's why they call it money. |
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But this is not a call for cynicism, or even the belief that nothing can ever be done. On the contrary -- it's call for everyone, whether here or in any other political interaction, to think about designing policy based on how people are, and not on how people should be. That is the essence of the value of markets and capitalism is, to me. And I do believe that solutions based on that paradigm would actually work. |
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"One of the troubles with americans is that they place individuality and limitless freedom of expression above the good of their own community...— Ian Tindale, Mar 11 2010" |
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ok someone has finally got it! |
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bytheway [MechE] the proper spelling of mfd is [marked-for-deletion] rant. or theory, or no, rant is good. |
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// Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra. // |
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Ooooh, we know this one ! |
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"The river Temarc in winter" |
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//Ooooh, we know this one !// |
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Didn't see that one coming. |
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//how come so many of them are ready to lay down their lives in the service of their country?// |
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[ZT], this is a keen observation from one on the outside looking in. Unfortunately, soldiers seem to be idolized more than the vast majority of them deserve. As one observing from the inside, I feel free to say that if the U.S. soldiers were not as handsomely paid as they are, our ranks would be severely lacking (to include myself). The majority of "soldiers" are more mercenary than patriot. Which, apart from being extremely accurate, also only goes to further my original point. |
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Military service directly benefits me. It has paid for my college, it has plenished my bank account, and it has provided me with training that I have always considered both valuable and necessary for survival. |
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Tracing back to one of our older conversations on evolution, you were expounding on the benefits of environments conducive to growth. The growth and diversification of specie this environment creates are also the first to die off when things get hard. |
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I wouldn't feel content knowing I would starve without the existence of grocery stores, but I seem to be getting caught on a tangential rant. let me reel myself back in... |
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Socialism and communism, (the non-emotional forms), require a large government and more of a burden to support (shouldered by the people). And just like any mechanical system, this will result in more loss due to friction (waste). Smaller government = less waste = more productivity. Yes there is equilibrium, but it is nowhere near socialism. We, in the U.S. anyway, have pushed far past that equilibrium, IMHO. |
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Yes, Ian! And those of us that left there and
came here are especially millitant about it: ) |
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// Didn't see that one coming. // |
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<prods anno suspiciously> |
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Biden and Palin at St. Louis.
Shaka, when the walls fell. |
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well, except for those like Arnie who were born elsewhere. And your proposition is self evident, QEDd by the last two men elected to the office, surely (albeit from two different directions). |
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It'll be interesting to see whether the USA or the UK is the
first to have a woman premier. |
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<prods anno suspiciously with long fork> |
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Besides, Gordon the Gopher is such an old woman it's effectively a double whammy ... |
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I really haven't been able to keep up with the flow of conversation, beingst that my place of work has begun logging our "non-work related internet use". Now that I have time to read over these annotations, I see my replies are rather rantish and askew to the dialogue. Apologies. |
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