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Cat Obedience-Inducing Collar/Harness

I have a theory...
 
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I've noticed through observation that the biggest difference between cats and dogs is respect. See, if you have a room that you like to keep the door open to but want to keep a dog out of, simply put up a baby gate. Dogs respect such boundaries and, though they can easily clear a 2-3 ft obstacle, they refrain from doing so. Same goes for putting chewable electronics out of reach. Put them on a table, dresser, or counter, and the dog leaves them alone. Not so with cats. These little overgrown rats from hell think that they have a God given right to go anywhere they damn well please and play with anything they damn well please. The real problem here is that there is hardly anywhere in a house they physically cannot get to, so short of closing all interior doors and locking all your things in cupboards or crates, everything you own is at the mercy of these fickle, capricious little varmints.

So it occurred to me that the best way to keep them from obtaining access to my valuables is to keep them on ground level with the hounds. But how to physically stop the cats from climbing and jumping, whilst allowing them to wander throughout the house with the hounds?

A shock collar/harness with an attached altimeter is how. Program a maximum permissible height for Kitty to reach, and the Kitty gets shocked something fierce if he goes any higher. That is all.

21 Quest, Nov 29 2012

Wedlock http://www.imdb.com...39/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Hmmmm ... cats, yes ... [8th of 7, Nov 29 2012]

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       It sounds as though you've put plenty of training into your dogs but little into your cats. Consequences abound.
  

       Perhaps someday you'll have the opportunity to try horses - they DO stay within six feet or so of the ground but the consequences of not training them can be mortal.
normzone, Nov 29 2012
  

       Because I am an animal lover, albeit one with a definite preference for dogs (and rhinoceroses), I suggest that the shock setting be lowered. I have conducted shock collar training with a persistently naughty cat, using a remote- controlled collar made for >15lbs dogs. I found that the very lowest setting was sufficient to completely freak the cat out, making behavior modification surprisingly easy.
  

       The only problem with this method, aside from the necessity of being present at the time of a naughty act, is that, unlike dogs, most cats forget their lessons over time and periodically need 'refresher courses'. I theorize that this is because most cats are dumber than a bag of hammers.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       There was this really great movie with Rutger Hauer called "Wedlock" ...
  

       <link>
  

       [+]
8th of 7, Nov 29 2012
  

       // There was this really great movie with Rutger Hauer //
  

       Your statement is based on a faulty premise and therefore does not qualify as verifiable conjecture.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       The thing about my dogs is, I didn't *have* to train them to respect boundaries such as child gates or kitchen countertops, or tables, not really. A rolled up newspaper to the snout the first few times they tried taking food off a table was sufficient. Now I'll admit, occasionally the big one (Boba) still snatches leftovers *if* it's precariously perched near the edge of the counter, but even then only when I'm not home. The damn cat goes for stuff up there RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, no matter how hard I swat him with the paper, how far I throw him or how long I lock him in the bathroom each time he does it.
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       Yes, that's because dogs are intelligent pack animals with a strong sense of hierarchy and interdependence, whereas cats are self-centered disrespectful little shits whose only use for a brain is as an anchor to prevent their spinal cords from sliding out of their asses.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       //There was this really great movie with Rutger Hauer//
  

       //Your statement is based on a faulty premise//
  

       Ahem... Blade Runner?
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       That wasn't Rutger Hauer. Due to a scheduling conflict that arose after Hauer signed to the role, the producers substituted a Rutger Hauer replicant so that Hauer could retain his credit. The same thing was done with Keanu Reaves in 'A Scanner Darkly'.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       //no matter how hard I swat him with the paper// that won't work with cats. Once they learn a pattern of behavior, that's it. Please don't hit your cat with anything, not even a rolled up paper. Cats don't understand punishments, so it ends up just being cruel, as there is no learning. Infinite patience is however rewarded, cats being the epitome of Zen.
xenzag, Nov 29 2012
  

       This lends credence to my theory that people who dislike cats are usually people who are not comfortable being around animals that they cannot control.
  

       When it comes to horses, I often wound up riding the difficult cases because my ability to remain calm had a calming effect on the animal.
normzone, Nov 29 2012
  

       I've found that to be true with horses as well. In fact, many things I have learned about dogs hold with horses in some way or another.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       When it's time for cat discipline a squirt bottle of water is usually sufficient. After a while all you have to do is imitate the squirt sound and they will desist the trigger behavior.
normzone, Nov 29 2012
  

       It's not a matter of control. It's a matter of protecting my belongings. Cats knock things from shelves, tear up furniture, and help themselves to food that isn't intended for their consumption. Infinite patience is only an option when you either have infinite cashflow or simply don't give a shit what happens to your stuff.
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       // cats are self-centered disrespectful little shits whose only use for a brain is as an anchor to prevent their spinal cords from sliding out of their asses. — Alterother, Nov 29 2012 //
  

       What {Alterother] said.
  

       // Blade Runner? //
  

       Yes.
  

       // //no matter how hard I swat him with the paper// that won't work with cats. //
  

       It's worth a try ...
  

       // Once they learn a pattern of behavior, that's it. //
  

       ... because there's no room for anything else in their miniscule twisted evil little branes ..
  

       // Please don't hit your cat with anything, not even a rolled up paper. //
  

       What about someone else's cat ?
  

       // Cats don't understand punishments, //
  

       Summary execution ?
  

       // so it ends up just being cruel, as there is no learning. //
  

       On the contrary. The individual administering the punishment can learn to derive a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction from it.
  

       // Infinite patience is however rewarded, //
  

       ... for instance, crouching in the undergrowth, motionless and silent, peering though a nightsight ...
  

       // cats being the epitome of Zen. //
  

       As in, The Sound Of One Vertebra Snapping ...
  

       // people who dislike cats are usually people who are not comfortable being around animals that they cannot control //
  

       People who dislike cats are usually people who are not comfortable stepping in unsolicited turds deposited in their flower beds.
  

       // When it's time for cat discipline a squirt bottle of water is usually sufficient. //
  

       When it's time for cat discipline a squirt bottle of concentrated sulphuric acid is usually sufficient.
  

       // After a while all you have to do is imitate the squirt sound and they will desist the trigger behavior. //
  

       Just once, you have to produce the sound of a round being chambered and they will desist the trigger behavior.
  

       // It's not a matter of control. It's a matter of protecting my belongings. //
  

       Razor wire and Claymore mines.
  

       // Cats knock things from shelves, tear up furniture, and help themselves to food that isn't intended for their consumption. //
  

       You can exploit that last nasty little habit ...
8th of 7, Nov 29 2012
  

       I only allowed the damnable creature into my house because my girlfriend wanted it... I'd just as soon donate it to a Korean restaurant.
  

       //Once they learn a pattern of behavior, that's it.//
  

       Sounds like a poorly programmed robot.
  

       //so it ends up just being cruel, as there is no learning. //
  

       If it can't learn, it isn't intelligent. If it isn't intelligent, it doesn't deserve to be treated like royalty, allowed to just do whatever it wants and go wherever it wants. But let me tell you, if the damn thing can learn to come when I call it's name, and can learn to wait patiently by its food dish while I fill the scoop with chow, it can learn pain association. The difficulty with pain association is in the consistency of punishment. Read up on Pavlovian conditioning. See, I'm not always home (or awake) to swat the cat with the paper when it misbehaves, so it thinks it's basically got a 50/50 shot at getting away with something. With a dog, that perception is more like "I've got a 50/50 chance of getting caught and punished... I better wait til the odds improve". In comes the Obedience Collar with built-in altimeter. Very quickly the cat will learn that EVERY time it moves above a certain altitude, it will be punished with a painful electric shock. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Eventually, it is going to discontinue efforts to leap and climb because of the consistency that only an always-on collar or harness can provide, regardless if I'm actually home or not.
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       Like humans, dogs are eiditic learners (I think that's the correct term), meaning that once they learn something, they remember it for the rest of their lives (barring senility), even if the stimulus that prompted the learned responce is removed for a long time.
  

       Cats are conditional learners, which means their responce behavior is limited to active stimulus in their environment. Remove a stimulus, they forget the conditioned responce. Bring it back, and they must re-learn the responce, although they'll probably pick it up a bit faster the second time around.
  

       Unfortunately, cats are curious and clever conditional learners, meaning that they learn all sorts of things, not just what you want them to learn, and they prefer to strengthen responce behaviors that serve their own needs. Their solitary nature inhibits their understanding of why they should do anything other than what makes them happiest at any given moment.
  

       [21], your best bet here is, unfortunately for you, the soft touch. Training the cat with positive reinforcement (affection and treats) will produce much better results than with discipline, which will just induce fear and erratic, possibly destructive anxiety behavior. It takes some time and a great deal of patience, but you will attain the best results by making friends with your woman's li'l cutie-pie. Sorry.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       How do I use 'positive reinforcement' to keep it off the table and off the kitchen counters? It goes up there because there's often tasty pickings to be had in pots left on the stove, or plates of leftovers set up there. I really can't offer it anything more positive than that, and even if I did, it wouldn't work while I'm out of the house. I suppose, in theory, if I was to ensure that there is never any food left up there to begin with, that might disincentivize the cat from going up there, but that is what counters and tables are FOR, damn it. I'm not going to completely re-organize the way my family does things to accommodate one fucking cat. No, the cat needs to conform to OUR way of living, not the other way around, and that's what the idea is for.
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       That's all well and good, but most cats are just too stupid to learn that way. I understand your predicament and I sympathize with you, but subjecting the cat to repeated electrocution if it climbs above a certain elevation is very likely to result in a neurotic, antisocial cat that runs from everything and urinates in the corners of rooms and on prominent bits of furniture as it attempts to re-assert its dominance over an environmental stimulus that it just doesn't understand.
  

       Feed the cat on the floor. Play with the cat on the floor. When you find the cat on the table, gently pick it up, put it on the floor, give it a treat and praise it. Continue for 6-8 months. If by that time the cat hasn't learned that the floor is a more interesting place than the table, it probably won't learn and it's time to accept the fact that your cat is retarded.
  

       This is why I prefer dogs.
  

       Also, remember that the cat's natural instinct is to climb up to high places, so consider installing a floor-to-ceiling kitty jungle gym, and whenever you find the cat on the table or in another no-go zone, bring it over to the jungle gym and reinforce the notion that this is an acceptable elevated location. Don't forget to stock the jungle gym with catnip and treats. Basically the idea is to give the cat places that hold more interest than the table, bookshelves, etc.
Alterother, Nov 29 2012
  

       There's a product out which is basically a motion sensor combined with a spray bottle.
  

       Set that up on the table: the cat jumps up and "pshhht"; the cat jumps right off again, even if it isn't hit with the water.
  

       Alternatively line the edge of the table with stuff:aluminum foil or paper towel, so the cat can't tell if it's safe to jump up.
  

       Thing with cats is you have to preempt/prevent undesireable behaviour that the cat doesn't know is wrong, not punish it: if the cat doesn't think there's anything wrong with jumping up on the table (which it doesn't) then it won't equate the action with the punishment: it'll just think you're an asshole.
  

       Keep in mind that, unlike dogs or people, to a housecat "up" is just another travelling direction like "left", "right", "forwards" and "backwards".
FlyingToaster, Nov 29 2012
  

       Ugh... a pet should not need to be babied and cajoled to do as instructed. I knew I should've said no to the cat. Matter of fact, I *did* say no to getting the cat, several times. My girlfriend showed me that I had a very poor understanding of what the word 'persistent' means, and eventually I caved. Sigh... can't I just zap it a little?
21 Quest, Nov 29 2012
  

       nah, it just fixates on the collar being evil.
  

       //RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME// guessing the gf never bothered to train it and, even if it figures out you don't want it doing whatever, it's gonna be like "well _she_ lets me...". But you're not completely screwed: just stop it between its making up its mind to jump but before it actually does.
  

       [ ] It was a [-]: bad science, but [+] //... whose only use for a brain is as an anchor to prevent their spinal cords from sliding out of their asses.// Ha.
  

       and <link>
FlyingToaster, Nov 29 2012
  

       //how to physically stop the cats from climbing and jumping//

Saw their legs off and replace them with little wheels.
DrBob, Nov 30 2012
  

       Staple them to a skateboard.
8th of 7, Nov 30 2012
  

       // Cats don't understand punishments//
  

       Humans with this problem are called sociopaths, formerly psychopaths.
Kansan101, Nov 30 2012
  

       The Egyptians had the right idea. Cats were recognised as being godly and mysterious. Anyone abusing cats in any way ran the risk of execution.
  

       "Such was the strength of feeling towards cats that killing one, even accidentally, incurred the death penalty. Another Greek historian, Diodorus Siculus, describes an interesting example of swift justice imposed upon the killer of a cat: about 60 BC, he witnessed the chariot of a Roman soldier accidentally run over an Egyptian cat. An outraged mob gathered and, despite pleas from pharaoh Ptolemy XII, killed the soldier." wiki - see link for complete article
xenzag, Nov 30 2012
  

       From your link, //the cat cult was a religious movement//. Religious fanatics are are also known to have worshipped an inanimate golden calf statue, and the Egyptians worshipped children. Since when is worship based on worthiness, or on any other logic for that matter?
21 Quest, Nov 30 2012
  

       //...to keep it off the table and off the kitchen counters...//
  

       Interesting you should mention that one, [21]. In my dubious and checkered past I had a wife that liked cats. ( << Key Word=HAD>> )
  

       You CAN teach them to stay off counters: simply put strips of tape on the counters with the adhesive side up --- once they have committed to the jump and are in mid-flight, even if they then realize what is about to happen to them they can't stop it. they will exit the counter at rocket speed and spend the next three hours in a hiding spot trying to rid themselves of the tape. If you want to cut them slack, use masking tape. If you want to be be a real A-Hole, use duct tape.
  

       If this takes more than two applications, you have a collosally stupid cat whose obviously defective DNA should be removed from the Universal Kitty Gene Pool.
Grogster, Nov 30 2012
  

       Frisco finds this idea highly offensive, blergh...take that, a little vomit ball on your foot, Mr. Quest.
blissmiss, Nov 30 2012
  

       // Humans with this problem are called sociopaths, formerly psychopaths //
  

       Thankfully, being an Aggressive Hegemonising Cybernetic Swarm, that's one we don't have to worry about.
  

       //Cats were recognised as being godly and mysterious. //
  

       Smoking too much of that stuff will do you serious harm ...
  

       // Anyone abusing cats in any way ran the risk of execution //
  

       Told ya ...
  

       // Since when is worship based on worthiness, or on any other logic for that matter? //
  

       Since your species developed TV ...
  

       //I had a wife that liked cats. //
  

       We feel your pain ...
  

       // a collosally stupid cat whose obviously defective DNA should be removed from the Universal Kitty Gene Pool. //
  

       i.e. a cat.
  

       // take that, a little vomit ball on your foot, Mr. Quest //
  

       Hey [21], OK to give weapons release to the airstrike now ?
8th of 7, Nov 30 2012
  

       I really don't like this idea either. As I said above, I have resorted to using a shock collar on a cat only once, after exhausting every other training method I could devise. It took two applications at the lowest power setting to curb the misbehavior, and little reminders every few months. Most cats respond well to positive reinforcement training if you give them time.
  

       [21], I hate to be a Dear Abby, but the solution to your particular dilemma lies in your relationship with your girlfriend, not your relationship with the cat. The two of you need to agree on a training method and both stick to it; she can't continue to let the cat have its way, and you ought to cut the critter some slack and try to make friends with it (and maybe buy some covered dishes).
  

       There, I've got it out of my system. No more preaching.
Alterother, Nov 30 2012
  

       // the solution to your particular dilemma lies in your relationship with your girlfriend, not your relationship with the cat. //
  

       Err, put the electric shock collar on the girlfriend ... ?
  

       There are worse solutions ...
8th of 7, Nov 30 2012
  

       // Err, put the electric shock collar on the girlfriend ... ? //
  

       Now you're talking kinky stuff... hmm, I'll have to run that one by her.
21 Quest, Nov 30 2012
  

       Just be aware that she might want to put it on you, too.
Alterother, Nov 30 2012
  

       She better make mine a bark collar, because my daddy was a hound dog, and I'm a mutt.
21 Quest, Nov 30 2012
  

       Arooooo!
Alterother, Nov 30 2012
  

       ...and now for something completely different.   

       //Since when is worship based on worthiness(?)// Many religious beliefs are based on logic and worthiness, in the case of the cat this was due to their ability to kill vermin, even cobras, along of course with their aloof, inscrutable nature.
  

       As for other religions, a God was always a mixture of a benevolence and vengefulness, but I can think of no religious belief that selects a "worthless" deity. We in hindsight may make that judgement.
  

       I will always think that cats are wonderful animals to be respected, valued and cherished.
xenzag, Dec 01 2012
  

       Then there are the Siamese monks who revered cats for their tendency to complain loudly whenever disturbed.
Alterother, Dec 01 2012
  

       I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong, Xenzag. Religion (or at least most of the teaching found in religious literature) is a result of a lack of logic. Things in the Bible, for instance, strongly suggest that it was written to explain things that they simply had no logical explanation for. For instance, in Genesis where it says 'God made two great lights in the sky, one to rule the day, and one to rule the night.' We now know that this was an illogical claim because the moon is not a source of light. The same can be said of countless religious beliefs, like rain being the tears of a God or Gods. We now know that rain is simply evaporated water falling back down. Some Christians even believe humans and dinosaurs co-existed just a few thousand years ago, even though there is no mention of dinosaurs in any religious text. These are the sort of people who believe cats are worthy of worship. Something I find interesting, when researching the origins of religion, is that many of the countries where they can trace their roots back to (India, Nepal, Persia, China, etc.) are also places where there was rampant drug use in the form of cannabinoids and opioids, as well as primitive alcohol, and this stuff was considered sacred by many cultures. If you have to take a mind-altering substance to believe in something, there is some questionable logic going on there.
21 Quest, Dec 01 2012
  

       Let's see...
  

       So far with this posting and subsequent annotations you have alienated;
-cat lovers
-any person of any religious faith
-drinkers
-smokers
-and Korean chefs
  

       ...have I missed anyone?   

       Korean chefs (legit Korean chefs, from Korea)shouldn't be alienated, because they feel no shame about eating cat or even dog as it's part of their culture, and I didn't intend that statement as an insult to them.
  

       By 'smokers', I generally refer to tobacco smokers. If you mean cannabis smokers, well they shouldn't be alienated either. I didn't make a single comment about recreational drug use. My comment referred solely to priests and other religious leaders who get stoned on a regular basis and claim that they are the keepers of universal truth *because* they get stoned.
  

       Drinkers shouldn't be offended. It's no secret that I myself enjoy a good drink here and there. See my above statement regarding smokers.
  

       Cat *lovers* shouldn't be alienated, either, because the only people I referred to in a demeaning way is cat *worshippers* and there is a big difference. I'm a dog lover, but I certainly don't worship dogs, nor do I need to liken them to a deity in order to find justification for that love.
  

       As to the religious people, if the object that they have devoted their entire lives to can't stand up to a little scrutiny, perhaps they *should* feel alienated. If the only answer they can provide to any of the questions one may have about life, the universe, and everything is simply 'Because God said so', then they *should* take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves why they subscribe to such dubious teachings. As I recall, it was Xenzag who brought up the religious aspect of the discussion, basically using the fact that people in the past have worshipped them as God-like creatures as justification for continuing adoration. The point of my riposte was to point out that you don't see people still worshipping golden calf statues.
21 Quest, Dec 01 2012
  

       I see.
Well, carry on with your cat electro shock therapy then...
  

       Alright, 8th, we've got the green light from 2 Fries. You are go to commence production in your typical Borgy efficient fashion.
21 Quest, Dec 01 2012
  

       I don't feel alienated, but I might when I come back down.
Alterother, Dec 01 2012
  

       // we've got the green light from 2 Fries //
  

       <distinctive sound of Tesla coil winding up>
  

       <quiet but unmistakeable demented cackling>
8th of 7, Dec 01 2012
  

       ...and thus began the Man Kzin wars.
  

       It really should be a movie by now.   

       //We now know that this was an illogical// [21] - the point is that it made perfect logical sense at the time. Many things change in retrospect, even within the impersonal supposedly prefect world of mathematics. Check out the impact that Kurt Gödel had on that community of certainty.
xenzag, Dec 02 2012
  

       Making up an invisible giant to explain things you are otherwise unable to explain is NOT logic, it is laziness, probably stemming from an unwillingness to admit that you don't know something, but I can admit there's a certain playground logic in that. If that's your idea of perfect logical sense, however, then I can't see the point of continuing this discussion. I CANNOT see how there's ANY logic involved in believing the dude who made it up, unless you're a lazy parent who decides to use the bullshit as a convenient teaching tool to control your children. 'Why should I do what YOU tell me, daddy?' 'Well son, because a giant wrathful, jealous GOD has commanded you to honor your parents, and believe me, you do NOT want to piss off an invisible giant.'
  

       Yeah. Logic. Riiiiight.
21 Quest, Dec 02 2012
  

       //cats are dumber than a bag of hammers//
No, no, you've got it backwards. The cat realises that the punishment is no longer being applied, so figures it can go back to doing whatever.
Cats and dogs are like gorillas and chimpanzees; one is a pack/group animal, and can be trained to do "tricks", the other is (generally) more intelligent, but being more solitary, is less inclined to respond to training. (There are some dog breeds that are pretty smart.)
(Disclaimer: I am definitely a cat person.)
neutrinos_shadow, Dec 03 2012
  

       Cats court punishment, in other words. Yes, quite well-evolved.
21 Quest, Dec 03 2012
  

       I thought gorillas and chimpanzees were both group animals...
  

       Anyway, I have two stories that illustrate the difference.
  

       1. A former house-mate used to lay his coat on the floor, lead his dog onto it, and tell it to stay. He would then leave for work. His dog would get up to stretch etc., but it would not set foot off the coat until many hours later, when its master got home and actually gave it permission to do so. (I was sometimes at home all day, and saw it for myself.) It did not 'cheat', even though it was surely aware that its owner was too far away to know.
  

       2. A cat, a guinea pig and I were in the shed. I thought it would be OK, because I was right there. With no warning, the cat ran the 4 metres to the guinea pig, snatched it up, and bolted for the exit, then to the bottom of the garden, and over the fence, with me futilely trying to intercept and then chase it. This was highly unusual; when it caught a mouse it would frantically call me over for approval (as most cats do). I can only interpret this as the cat's being aware that it was doing the wrong thing by me, but being concerned only with getting away with it.
  

       So while these are obviously extreme examples, I would agree that cats have characteristics that we would call sociopathic in humans.
  

       I don't hate cats, though, and still keep one around, mainly to control pests. I _do_ hate sociopaths. I tried treating one like a human being once. Never again.
spidermother, Dec 08 2012
  

       Just for those who enjoy irony:
  

       [21 Quest] ->
Recommended reading for noobs: ->
krelnik's halfbakery newbie idea posting rules ->
Rule 11: Avoid the taboos ->
• Cruelty to animals, especially cats
spidermother, Dec 08 2012
  

       Except that this idea really isn't cruel, certainly no more so than an invisible fence. I reject any claims to the contrary as totally false. Invisible fences are used, quite widely, to control a dog's movement along 2 dimensions (that is, side-to-side and forward-and-backward). This idea simply adds a third dimension of control.
  

       Once the cat learns to associate the desired altitude with pain, it will stop trying to jump and climb and stay on the ground with the dogs, and there won't be any pain at all. In fact, despite the name, there's no reason it couldn't be used on dogs who like to jump on people.
  

       I have absolutely no aversion to using invisible fences, and everybody who's been here for more than 5 minutes knows how much I care for dogs.
21 Quest, Dec 08 2012
  

       Yes, but this is device would contravent a cat's natural and sometimes overpowering instinct to seek high places, whereas if a dog's urge to go somewhere is quelled, he'll just check out what's over here. Dogs, you see, are able to rise above their baser instincts (although distractability and a casual approach to memory seem to help).
Alterother, Dec 08 2012
  

       I wasn't commenting on the cruelty or otherwise of the idea, just pointing out irony for irony's sake.
  

       However, while associating a particular place (such as the kitchen bench-tops) with a shock would probably work well, [Alterother] might be right that punishing altitude alone would be confusing, and potentially cruel in the long run, for a cat.
spidermother, Dec 08 2012
  

       Only if you sadistically tease the cat by giving him one of those tall cat towers, thus confusing him by saying he can jump up there but not anywhere else. I fully admit that that may confuse a cat's limited cognitive capacity. But if, on the other hand, you keep the cat's bed and food/water dishes at ground level (just like you would for a dog), and keep his toys at ground level (in other words, define the cat's whole domain as being at ground level), it shouldn't be considered cruel at all, especially if the cat is raised from birth like that. I agree it would be cruel (for a while at least, until it finally figured out that the shock collar isn't going anywhere) to do this to a grown cat that has had 3-dimensional freedom of movement all its life.
  

       In fact, it should be possible, using this device, to eventually breed out the climbing/jumping instincts, the urge to climb/jump as high as it possibly can, entirely. This is not cruelty, it's domestication.
21 Quest, Dec 08 2012
  

       Fair points.
  

       I think there are already breeds of cat that are more domesticated and less annoying than others; maybe Burmese and Abyssinian. As it happens, I'm glad to have acquired the exact opposite - an intractable, independent, outdoorsy cat, that loves climbing things to kill other things, and therefore keeps critters off my fruit trees.
spidermother, Dec 08 2012
  

       Sounds like a very useful cat: a cat that should *stay* outdoors. See, any dog breed, even 'outdoor' breeds like hunting dogs, mountain rescue dogs, herding dogs, etc. can be taught to modify its behavior when it enters a house. My dog, Corona, stays off the furniture when in the house, but outside she climbs up on big rocks, jumps up and walks along the edge of short walls, etc. Cats don't seem to comprehend the difference between inside and outside. They think that any behavior they can perform outside can be brought in, as well. Perhaps 2 categories of cat breeds need to be created: indoor cats that don't have the urge to jump and climb, yet *maybe* still have the urge to hunt mice, rats, etc (I say 'maybe' because if you have a bad enough rodent infestation in your home that you *need* a cat, you probably have a few bigger problems that could be solved without all the headache of bringing a barely domesticated natural killer into your home) and one that excels outdoors (but *stays* outdoors). If that were to happen, you'd need a way to confine it to your property. I'll bet you don't take any steps to keep your climbing, hunting killing machine on your property, by the way. A lot of folks go to great lengths to *attract* birds to their yards, and a few cats patrolling the whole neighborhood can sabotage those efforts. A lot of us also don't appreciate cats coming onto our property and making our dogs bark at night while we're trying to sleep.
  

       In short, cats do not currently exhibit the behavior of a domesticated animal. They should *be* domesticated, and my idea is simply for a tool that would help achieve that goal.
21 Quest, Dec 08 2012
  

       //I'll bet you don't take any steps to keep your climbing, hunting killing machine on your property, by the way.//
  

       Guilty as charged; but it is not unlawful, and seems culturally accepted, to allow cats to roam in my neighbourhood, and it was an existing free-roaming, killing etc. that I (with its owner's consent) relocated from its factory demesne to my property. And yes, besides an initial few weeks locked in to convince it to relocate, it has never been inside the house.
spidermother, Dec 08 2012
  

       //it is not unlawful, and seems culturally accepted, to allow cats to roam in my neighbourhood//
  

       In at least most, if not all, of the USA, it *is* unlawful to allow *any* pet to roam off your property without a leash (if you check your local laws regarding pets, I seriously doubt you'll find a written exemption put in place for them). The reason cat owners aren't fined as frequently as dog owners is twofold: cats are less often tagged with owner-identifying information, and are often harder to catch.
  

       Keep in mind, such laws (that is, requiring owners to keep their animals on their property) are put in place, at least in part, for the animal's own safety. There is a reason there are far more cats killed by vehicles on roadways than dogs. There's also a good reason sadistic torturers of small animals nromally target cats rather than dogs. Cats are easier to get ahold of because there are so many of them roaming the streets, they can be baited into a trap set up on the torturer's own property, or even poisoned with a can of tuna laced with antifreeze placed on 8th's back porch.
21 Quest, Dec 08 2012
  

       I'm not in the US, and it's not exactly a pet, more a semi-stray that got a territory transplant.
spidermother, Dec 09 2012
  

       If I followed a pest cat to your home, and took a video with my phone of it going to a bowl of food and water on your back porch, I'm reasonably certain that would be sufficient evidence to establish legal ownership (on your part) of the cat.
21 Quest, Dec 09 2012
  


 

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