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Employers do nothing but pay a salary

I don't think your employer should be responsible for that thing it has been legally obligated to do
  [vote for,

I think becoming an employer should be a simple exercise carried out by the same level of difficulty as creating a WhatsApp group, i.e, to those who haven't created a whatsapp group, it's very easy and simple to do.

This idea proposes we get rid of the responsibilities typically assigned to employers.

I propose these are replaced with payments coming from government.

* paying sick employees * paying for absences

I propose the following is covered by bank accounts - i.e, outside the scope of an employer

* instructing a pension provider * handling payments into a pension provider - this should be done at a taxation level, outside the scope of the employer

I propose work perks to be exchanged for money instead and made illegal and buyable on an open market so that even people who have poor jobs can access the same perks.

chronological, Apr 07 2020

[1] Plato and Aristotle on mob rule democracy https://en.wikipedi...Democracy#Criticism
Some sign mostly the front, others sign mostly the back, of checks to and fromt he government [Sunstone, Apr 10 2020]


       Congratulations on, re-inventing Marxism-Leninism (yet again). It's been tried, and every time, it's failed disastrously, because humans are nasty, greedy, selfish and venal, and immediate start to try and work out how to beat the system.
8th of 7, Apr 07 2020

       Did you read the content?   

       This idea is about removing responsibilities from employers. Not Marxism-Lennism. Unless I am missing out doing so is Marxist.   

       If any thing, it's the reverse of Marxism. The idea is that employers do very little for their staff.
chronological, Apr 07 2020

       // Did you read the content? //   

       Yes, carefully and thoroughly. You are describing an ideal "socialist" system.   

       // The idea is that employers do very little for their staff //   

       If they are permitted to do little, they will strive - very hard - to do nothing, divesting all risk and responsibility.   

       It's the same thing; passing off responsibilities to government.   

       As time goes on, employers seek to shift more and more of their fixed costs to government. Everyone votes for it, because it looks like everyone benefits. But governments do nothing well, the friction is enormous, and eventually the system collapses under its own weight.   

       Costs have to be dealt with locally and immediately, not remotely and deferred.
8th of 7, Apr 07 2020

       I don't think the government actually has to be the people doing the work either. Private enterprise should be doing the work. But your employer isn't one of them. I just think of the misery induced upon on every organisation for what is a repetitive work that should be carried out in one place - not again and again in each company. It's not a market differentiator.   

       I propose that private companies are set up to carry out the tasks that other companies should not be doing.   

       Government can have a regulation that you MUST have appointed a representative for a pension provider.   

       Government and companies shouldn't be getting involved in things that are not their core business.
chronological, Apr 07 2020

       That's called "outsourcing", and it's Baked to death. Payroll, IT, HR, vehicle fleets, catering, facilities... all routinely outsourced.
8th of 7, Apr 07 2020

       I'd go as far as to say that companies must outsource these things. By law.   

       Now companies can be started up easier than ever before. And their functions can be cloudified and digitised.
chronological, Apr 07 2020

       Do you really think there are thousands of businesses looking at the relative costs of outsourcing vs not and deciding to waste money by not outsourcing? If not what benefit would be gained by forcing businesses to operate in an inefficient manner? I smell troll.
Voice, Apr 07 2020

       Was thinking about this for union shops ; difference is I've got the unions handling everything (except proprietary training and perks), not government. Guess, that would make them guilds.
FlyingToaster, Apr 07 2020

       I think I'm recognising some similarity of thought process with some witnessed indirectly elsewhere here, can't quite put my finger on it..   


       [Ponders some more]   

       [Flashing light bulb]   

       Aha! gotit! finger firmly put!   

       You're the one responsible for the government's 'smart' motorways idea aren't you [chron].
Skewed, Apr 07 2020

       I'm actually arguing for de-regulation here with regard to employers.   

       The relationship between you and your employer is that you show up for work, work and then get paid in currency.   

       That's it.   

       Every thing else is a value added service, some mandated by government. Those services must have an elected supplier. Perhaps picked by the employee or more likely, who have been chosen as the outsourcers.
chronological, Apr 07 2020

       But you are aren't you, go on admit it, you know you want to, there's no use denying it, we can tell by the pattern of your thought processes.   

       As revealed by careful analysis of your reasoning & arguments. It's like identifying someone by the way they walk.   

       Nice kit by the way [8th], when did you say you wanted it back?
Skewed, Apr 07 2020

       Tch, keep it. Go, enjoy yourself. We have plenty more.
8th of 7, Apr 07 2020

       [chronological]; many of your "social repair" ideas would work fantastically, IF everyone was a Good Person.
Unfortunately, as mentioned by [8th of 7] above (and elsewhere), there is a reasonable percentage of people that are not, who will do whatever they can to (in simple terms) have MORE than the person next to them. Because human greed is the biggest problem with humans.
neutrinos_shadow, Apr 08 2020

       Not the biggest, but certainly a very big problem.It has to compete with laziness, envy, bigotry, wishful thinking, wilful self-deception, small-mindedness and a host of others, but it's significant nonetheless.   

       // reasonable percentage // i.e. 100%, but most like to pretend otherwise.
8th of 7, Apr 08 2020

       //illegal and buyable on an open market//   

       Wait - which? Illegal, or buyable on an open market? And is this somehow intrinsic to the idea of making it easier to hire people, or an afterthought?   

       Also, I'm not clear whether this scheme is intended to be universal and compulsory (in which case the problems of totalitarianism creep in) or something made available by government as an option.
pertinax, Apr 08 2020

       //Capitalism is just a better if very coarse mechanism for devolving power to the masses.//   

       May I respectfully draw your attention to the Iron Law of Wages?
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       // insect protein is better //   

       Which colour Soylent is that, then ? Not green, obviously ...
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       Most employment is make-work anyway. Look at the world economy right now. Some people are working hard on the necessities of life: food, saving people's lives, killing other people because they're foreign or some other excuse.   

       All the other stuff is optional. If I want coffee I can boil a pan of water and make my own, I don't need some smarty barrister to pour it for me.   

       I think the real problem here is that the concepts of "work", "employment", "currency" etc. are used interchangeably in different spheres of activity. It would be much better to try and decouple different kinds of activity so that whatever accounting or distribution control system is used for e.g. medicine or chocolate is a different system to be used for hair dye and plastic USB frogs, and is different again from the accounting and distribution system used for entertainment or personal grooming services.
pocmloc, Apr 09 2020

       //the ongoing redefinition of subsistence//   

       I suggest a stable definition of subsistence, as follows: subsistence is the standard of living above which capital formation is realistically possible.   

       For example, if I were a medieval peasant, I might be able to subsist on a diet of root vegetables while wearing course, homespun cloth. The next groat I got over and above that could, in principle, be set aside towards giving my children a slightly better life. However, if I, in the present day, turned up to a job interview wearing homespun cotton and presenting the demeanour of someone who had been living on root vegetables, and could not afford deodorant or soap, I would not be hired, and could therefore never earn the extra groat.   

       So, if "subsistence" today happens at a higher level than in the past, this is not only a function of people being pampered special snowflakes, but also a function of some intractable realities of the world of work.   

       In that sense, I suggest, subsistence is not an archaic term. Ergo, the Iron Law remains relevant.
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       //decouple different kinds of activity//   

       So, you'd like to break the fungibility of money?   

       That cloud of dust on the horizon is the on-rushing army of arbitrageurs, led by those who combine the most oleaginous networking skills with the eating habits of the White Pointer.   

       Don't mind me, I'll be over there ... no, further away than that.
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       //decouple different kinds of activity//   

       You could have a special term for that. How about "Collateralized Debt Obligation " ? Catchy...
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       CDOs didn't decouple, but rather the reverse - they coupled (or helped to couple) wholesale banking to retail banking.
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       We know. It's called "irony" ... that's the exact point, they are the complete opposite of the suggeston.   

       Still totally disastrous, but in an underlyng technically different way.   

       Next up, the Ponzi scheme...
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //the eating habits of the White Pointer.//   

       Must ... stop ... pastiching the writing style of [8th of7]. I *like* cats. I *like* cats. I *like* cats ...
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       Come, join us.... don't be afraid... you know you want to...   

       <Turns up Assimilation Intensifier Brane Ray another notch/>
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //subsistence is the standard of living above which capital formation is realistically possible//   

       Very nicely put, you've thought about that haven't you.
Skewed, Apr 09 2020

       Yes, there's far too much of this "thinking" going on lately.   

       The Iron Law of Wages is less relevant in a technologically advanced society, where "labour" is potentially automated (humans compete with machines, not other humans or animals (to pull a cart, 4 humans = 1 horse)) and reproduction is elective, non-reproduction is socially acceptable, and educated citizens largely understand the principles of resource concentration. No kids = more nice stuff. Children are an investment in the future of society as a whole, but individuals are selfish. Very little measureable benefit accrues to parents - just costs, responsibilities and trouble.   

       The Law assumes commensurate population growth - no longer the case in developed nations. Supply of "labour" can be sustained only by imports in periods of increasing demand and there are social pressures against this.   

       There's also the inherent lag in the system response. Increasing demand faces a ten to fifteen year lag in delivering extra workers. Automation doesn't have such long lead times, in those tasks where automation is possible.   

       It's a useful guideline, but of necessity simplistic, since it tries to encapsulate large economic and social processes within a one-liner.   

       There's another interesting phenomenon - the "dirty jobs that no-one wants to do". In a subsistence economy, it's always possible to recruit night-soil men, tanners, gong-farmers, pure-finders and chimneysweeps. When part of the population is on the edge of starvation, someone will take the job. But when the available workforce is falling, a premium must be paid to recruit into those roles. Most workers will prefer to flip burgers for an acceptable standard of living than unblock sewers for the same reward.   

       As time passes, that disinclination moves up the employment tree.   

       Someone's got to crawl into the Jeffries tubes and chase the tribbles out ...
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //"dirty jobs that no-one wants to do"//   

       I always have a problem with that phrase, according to supply & demand in a free market there are no dirty jobs that no-one wants to do, there are only jobs that (for what they are & their conditions) don't pay enough to attract an employee.   

       So it peeves me no end when I hear the dirty jobs line & its ilk from the self same people who were citing economic or market 'realities' to justify lower wages or something similar only (seemingly) moments before, employers don't have a monopoly on market forces, there's two sides to that coin & hearing someone simultaneously embracing one side while denying the other is almost enough to make you want to scream, gut them with blunt garden instrument shove a pole up their arse & roast them over a slow fire, with some vegetables.   


       [Orders some chianti & fava beans from Tesco online]   

       [Flicks through 'Eat the Rich: A Treatise on Economics']   

       There's not a single damn recipe in here!
Skewed, Apr 09 2020

       What, no Wicker Man ? But the garden implements are good. You can practice by waving a scythe in the air, upside-down, and chanting "Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb".   

       <Proffers scythe/>   

       <Turns up Brane Ray another click/>   

       Are you still sure you like cats ?   

       // I always have a problem with that phrase //   

       Not unreasonable, again it's trying to capture a big complex issue in a trite simplistic way. But "free" markets are in reality constrained by multiple factors, demand-supply lag being only one of them, along with training. For example, although the vast majority of humans can in fact pilot an aircraft to an acceptable level, a sudden demand for one million extra pilots could not be met in a timeframe less than several years.   

       On the basis of [chron]'s work-warehouse, shelf-stacking model, then the assumptions have some validity, but in the real world, no.   

       "Free" (unregulated) is too often confused with "unconstrained" - all markets are constrained in some way.
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //What, no Wicker Man ?//   

       Certainly not! have you ever tried cooking with one of those?   

       It's almost impossible to get an even temperature.   

       [Accepts scythe]   

       [Sits there sharpening it & mumbling something about a lack of recipes & false advertising]
Skewed, Apr 09 2020

       // have you ever tried cooking with one of those? //   

       Yes. Great for baked potatoes, the Argentine style of cooking beef (on a metal rack propped in front of a fire), anything boiled, or grilled fish.   

       When the time comes to burn down the next Mad Doctor's windmill, you can have first go. Here, take these. Don't catch them on the scythe, and keep them clean until needed.   

       <Proffers chef's white tunic, apron, and tall hat, sealed in a plastic pack/>
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //now those are unaffordable, they are rioting.// Rioting is pretty much the French national pastime.
Voice, Apr 09 2020

       It keeps them busy. Otherwise they might drive elsewhere and infest everyone else.
RayfordSteele, Apr 09 2020

       The horror, the horror ...   

       Perhaps what's needed is an agreement to stop the french from spreading and becoming a pandemic.   

       Britain did all the pioneering research up to 1815; time other nations put some effort in.
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       //Very nicely put//   

       Thank you, [skewed].   

       You see, [8th]? Civility; watch and learn.
pertinax, Apr 09 2020

       Oh, we know all about "civility".   

       We just don't use it, or if we do, it's for nefarious reasons.
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       We demand that you post that as an idea so we can bun it.   

       Make it with folded arms so the torso fits comfortably in the steamer & bent knees so it's torso lies flat while the lower legs & feet form a handle.
Skewed, Apr 09 2020

       What [Skewed] said, but in 128-point block capitals, bold, italic, underline.   

       And in a suitably shouty font.
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       Skewed was imagining a version of appropriate size for steaming vegetables, in a cookpot of normal size. You don't get to change the spirit of his words whilst simultaneously emphasizing them, you have to pick. Anyway don't you have half a dozen different bronze bulls?
Voice, Apr 09 2020

       Yes, and a Bronze Turtle too, as a tribute to Sir Terry.   

       We want the Wicker Man vegetable steamer, and we want it NOW. The vegetables are evil and must be destroyed. They must be made to suffer.
8th of 7, Apr 09 2020

       The red tape and expenses being an employer should be much less. Nor should employers have ti be sales tax. collectors for the government.   

       But employers would pay part of the taxes that the government would use to pay for absences, sick and maternity time, FICA, single payers insurance when it gets here, unemployment, medical insurance, corporate bailouts, small business loans, and such.   

       The businessperson will pay for it one way or another.   

       "The Republics for which they used to stand," are controlled solely by the people that pay the bills to run the country. Pure democracy, socialism, communism is controlled largely by those that do not pay the bills to run the country.   

       See Plato and Aristotle's opinions on democracy [1]
Sunstone, Apr 10 2020

       It does make sense in many aspects : large union contracts these days, there's all sorts of clauses like free education, sick days, various non-work-related insurances, etc. etc. etc. that, often, the union is bigger than the employer and could get better deals. The company should just be paying a straight salary + giving perks integral to the company, itself (like transit companies giving discounts on trips, etc.). Just, my 2c.
FlyingToaster, Apr 10 2020

       Let's analyse that a little more closely.   

       What you've described is a contractual arrangement between two parties. There will be all sorts of "break" clauses, and even without them, the two parties can simply mutually agree to set aside the contract, or force majeure can be invoked.   

       The problem with a government run scheme is that it tries to be a one-size-fits-all design and operate indefinitely with no break clauses. It's inherently inflexible, and cannot adapt rapidly to a change of circumstances. Employers and unions may not want to adapt or change, but the market will ultimately force them to face an altered reality. Governments try to pretend they can actually control reality; then they fail, usually disastrously.   

       Critically, as the pace of social and economic change accelerates, and governmental systems scrabble to preserve the status quo, or react slowly and inappropriately - since by the time a change has been agreed and implemented, the problem itself has moved on - the strains get greater, and credibility id eroded.   

       Two contracting parties can change an arrangement in hours, if necessary. Oh, they might decide on a "transition period" and all sorts of other measures, but the fix can be done fast. Representative democracies can't do that. When the world changes overnight, their reactions take years.   

       In a world where change was slow, the systems can cope. "We have done it like this for years" worked. Now, it doesn't. What worked in the past does not work today, and will not work tomorrow.   

       There are other problems. Governments don't generally pay enough to attract the best talent; talented people don't want to bother with the sluggish, hidebound systems of bureaucracy. Unsurprisingly, they're left with the residue when all the best people have taken interesting, well-paid jobs that they want to do, so no government is ever better than third-rate. So they rely on consultants, who are paid huge sums to tell them the obvious, which they then ignore, because it's not what they want to hear - it's not reassuring. Thus the downward spiral continues ...   

       When the present is like the past, you can sort-of muddle along. When the present is not at all like the past, and the experience of your organization ceases to be relevant on a daily basis, you're doomed. Commerce adapts, because that which does not adapt, does not survive.
8th of 7, Apr 10 2020

       //Two contracting parties can change an arrangement in hours, if necessary.//
calum, Apr 11 2020

       It's rare for that to happen, but a "memorandum of understanding" can be produced and signed off very quickly.   

       Yes, mostly it's a sluggish, lawyer-infested swamp, but not always.
8th of 7, Apr 11 2020

       A memorandum of understanding is only very exceptionally legally binding and when legally binding takes as long as any other contract. The whole justification of an MoU is that because it is not legally binding, you can write whatever you want - it doesn't matter.
calum, Apr 11 2020

       True; "Peace in our time" is not a given.   

       But presented with an actual signed bit of actual paper, and driven by their compulsion to fall down and worship it as a god, lawyers will grumble and shuffle their feet when told "turn this into a proper contract" because while they're prevaricating, de facto implementation has already happened.   

       It's amusing to watch their horror and confusion when things are simply done without reference to the legal niceties and they get told to tidy up the paperwork. They fail to grasp that the paperwork is only a description of the thing, not the thing itself.
8th of 7, Apr 11 2020

       I can confirm that this is sometimes hilarious.
pertinax, Apr 11 2020

       // But you are aren't you, go on admit it, you know you want to, there's no use denying it, we can tell by the pattern of your thought processes.   

       // As revealed by careful analysis of your reasoning & arguments. It's like identifying someone by the way they walk.   

       Could you tell me how I think? That would be very interesting to me   

       Smart motorways is not my idea but some thing I can imagine myself thinking of. I've heard it was a bad idea in practice.   

       I suspect that's not a good thing.   

       What's the theme to all my ideas?   

       What I'm trying to reconcile at the moment is the difficulty of starting a business. Your typical greasy spoon or low end food place is pretty bare bones whereas a chain restaurant looks good. A greasy spoon cannot afford all the services needed to provide maternity leave, perks and pension payments. They shouldn't be forced by law or legal requirements to provide these services. The relationship between you and your employer shod be a financial one. The "looking after" should be outsourced as 8th says. It's baked a lot but it's still the company that provides it. I should elect a pension provider at the financial level not at the organisational level of my employer. My employer shouldn't be tied to pension provision.   

       I see it as an life account that has elections on. A bit like a shareholder or domain registrar.   

       I can see how it describes a perfect socialist system though. So this is clear to me now even though it sounds as if it promotes business doing the outsourced work.
chronological, Apr 20 2022

       People exploiting systems is some thing that is interesting to me as I want to defend against it. Evil is exhibited by the common person.   

       Every system has been exploited. It's why we have TLS and OAuth 2.   

       I wonder what systems can be introduced to provide society wide protection of government services. If you look at the fraud caused by the furlough scheme and bounce back and PPP loans in the US there was a lot of exploitation goin on for gain.
chronological, Apr 20 2022

       //The relationship between you and your employer shod be a financial one//

If you want to live in a non-shitty world then removing morality from relationships is not the way to go about it.
DrBob, Apr 20 2022


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