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Immigration Reciprocity

Ok Molvania, 150,000 immigrants to the US this year, that means you need to allow 150,000 Americans to become Molvanian citizens...
  (+5, -2)
(+5, -2)
  [vote for,
against]

...with full property and most importantly, voting rights.

They might not choose to live there, perhaps they'll just use their new dual citizenship to invest in land for development purposes but they WILL be voting in your next election. And the more people we take in, the more power we have in the country of origin to fix the problems that are making people want to leave in the first place.

Repeat for every other country full of people who can't wait to get into the US. 100,000 Berzerkistan refugees? Great, that's 100,000 Americans that get to vote in the next Berzerkistan election and have a say in the running of that country that's become so uninhabitable for its people. We seem to be pretty good at running a country in a manner that makes everybody want to move here so we're obviously doing something right.

Hey European countries, this would work of you too.

Who gets the dual citizenship? First come first serve or determined by lottery.

doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015

Gallup poll says 150+ Million want to migrate to the US. http://www.gallup.c...ldwide-Migrate.aspx
"undisputed title as the world's most desired destination for potential migrants" [LimpNotes, Dec 30 2015]

[link]






       Dear Comrade, the election process of Molvania is sacred to the People and allowing foreigners to vote would upset the delicate balance of power commanded by Glorious Leader.
the porpoise, Dec 29 2015
  

       I like the dual-citizen aspect, but I don't know how well voting will go over. Only just over half of Americans vote in their own elections let alone a foreign one.   

       Good point.   

       Any American wanting Molvanian citizenship would have to respect the rules. Miss one vote, citizenship revoked. Next person in line who wanted citizenship takes over.   

       Now whether or not Generalissimo Krull, Grand Imperial Poobah of Molvania would adhere to any decree by these new expatriate voters is another thing all together. But if he doesn't, the deal is void and he's getting all his people back.   

       After getting a taste of the good life, I'm guessing living under the Krullster isn't going to be something this army of returnees is going to be very happy about.   

       Which of course comes under the "Not my problem" category.
doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015
  

       hmm, that would just encourage checking any old random box without learning anything about the issues or parties in order to retain citizenship... also third-party collecting and counting of votes would then become necessary.   

       Well, why then would you want to become a voter going through all that trouble to become a dual citizen just to not vote or to vote without even looking into the issues? Remember, this is voluntary.   

       And there's nothing in it for the American or European citizen except for being able to be of assistance to their chosen secondary country.
doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015
  

       Election legitimacy aside, I think reciprocal citizenship would put pressure on Molvania et al., even if only as an inconvenient sticking point in political discourse. [+]
the porpoise, Dec 29 2015
  

       Hey, even if you use it as a bargaining chip to bring to the table.   

       At least it opens up a two way dialog here. We pretty much get preached to by countries sending us their people about who, how, when, how many and under what circumstances we're supposed to accept their people.
doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015
  

       If you put up a huge statue with lines like "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" prominently displayed, then you've only yourselves to blame. Some people are going to take it as a hint.
8th of 7, Dec 29 2015
  

       The French gave it to us. Just sayin'.
doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015
  

       Let me get this straight... This country is contemplating the virtues of the Donald and you want us to start directing the fates of other countries as well, most of which most Americans can't even find on a map?   

       The French should ask for it back. We clearly don't know what to do with it.
RayfordSteele, Dec 29 2015
  

       If we're as lame as you say, how come everybody wants to move here?   

       And that same electorate that's considering Trump is the one that put Obama into office twice. Little hard to reconcile for the left wing/right wing club I expect.
doctorremulac3, Dec 29 2015
  

       Punch or Judy?
Judy or Punch?
  

       Same wrists either way.   

       // how come everybody wants to move here? //   

       Because you have aircon, and cable TV ?
8th of 7, Dec 30 2015
  

       //Because you have aircon, and cable TV// - and guns.... lots and lots and lots of guns
xenzag, Dec 30 2015
  

       You're going to have to try harder than that if you want the good life in Berzerkistan. We'll trade one-for-one immigrants plus a $1 million per. (Berzerki dollars of course). At that we'll have to see how it goes, not many Berzerkis are interested in going there.   

       The conceit in this idea is pretty thick and difficult to see past.
tatterdemalion, Dec 30 2015
  

       You are deluded if you think “everyone wants to move there”. There is no way on earth I would even want to get near there. I do not even acknowledge that it exists, except as a mass-media impression on the Internet. They make films about it, and that’s as far as the proof goes. It actually does not exist. It’s merely a fairy story.
Ian Tindale, Dec 30 2015
  

       //You are deluded if you think “everyone wants to move there”. There is no way on earth I would even want to get near there.//   

       Doing a quick check I'm seeing that we allow 1 million immigrants to come into the US every year. That's not including un-documented immigrants of which there are a lot.   

       Just stay in your own little corner of the world Ian. Leave the world travel up to us adults. Safe to say I've probably been to your country multiple times and I would never say stupid xenophobic stuff about it, not because it's better or worse than other countries, but because there's really no point in being nasty like that.
doctorremulac3, Dec 30 2015
  

       This is an interesting idea. Not sure how it could be enforced though. Maybe it should be modeled as a child support scheme. The US takes your baby and we've agreed that the cost for raising that baby is this much. You as the parent state now owe our state and we will collect using military might as necessary. When the "debt" gets large enough and "voting authority" becomes large enough, invasion is justified and troops on the ground provide a means of enforcement, and with voting, an ability to direct the structure of the government into something more useful.
LimpNotes, Dec 30 2015
  

       I think it would suffice to just say the contract was broken if the other country doesn't hold up their end of the agreement and to send them back.   

       It's in the interest of these countries to honor the agreement. Many of these immigrants send money that they make in America back to their home countries. If they all get sent back that's a big loss of revenue.
doctorremulac3, Dec 30 2015
  

       Ah. You are talking about Mexico-type immigration and I am talking about Syria-type immigration.
LimpNotes, Dec 30 2015
  

       I don’t remember anything in the news, on telly, anywhere that popular or current information circulates to the masses, that indicates that anyone wants to move to america. I am, however, exposed to endless items of news, information, current affairs, and satire all relating to how many people want to move to the UK, and whether this is good or bad or should be stopped or encouraged and can we even fit them all in anyway? (My personal view is that it is a good thing, and that borders are a bad thing, but that cultures and ideologies contained within borders are the real threat that needs eradication, especially if they move with the people as the people move).   

       There’s pretty much no mention of moving to america. Apart from the excellent 1988 film “Coming to america” which in true John Landis fashion features a poster of the fictitious film “See you next wednesday”.
Ian Tindale, Dec 30 2015
  

       //Ah. You are talking about Mexico-type immigration and I am talking about Syria-type immigration.//   

       I'm trying to keep it generic, but yea, that last statement was more about Mexico.   

       I'd apply this to both types though with the overall idea that since we're having to take care of people leaving a particular country because of problems there, let us at least have some say in fixing those problems at the source.   

       //I don’t remember anything//   

       Evidently.
doctorremulac3, Dec 30 2015
  

       Educate yourself [Ian]. <link>
LimpNotes, Dec 30 2015
  

       Yes, I've thought that something similar should be applied within the EU.   

       At the moment, we have freedom of migration between EU countries. This made sense when the members (UK, France, Germany...) were all at roughly the same level as regards standards of living, unemployment etc.   

       But now that the EU includes some countries with notably worse standards of living, net migration is a huge issue. Some degree of "loose reciprocality" (adjusted annually, and with a leeway of a few thousand people either way) is needed.   

       Either that, or we should take a leaf out of the German book, and all move into Poland while they're all over here driving our taxis.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 30 2015
  

       Yes, I've thought that something similar should be applied within the EU.   

       At the moment, we have freedom of migration between EU countries. This made sense when the members (UK, France, Germany...) were all at roughly the same level as regards standards of living, unemployment etc.   

       But now that the EU includes some countries with notably worse standards of living, net migration is a huge issue. Some degree of "loose reciprocality" (adjusted annually, and with a leeway of a few thousand people either way) is needed.   

       Either that, or we should take a leaf out of the German book, and all move into Poland while they're all over here driving our taxis.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 30 2015
  

       This is actually a pretty clever way of reducing limitations on the free movement of people worldwide. Some portion of the population of the "desired" country who accepted the "undesired" citizenship would visit or perhaps even move to the "undesired" country (obviously they would have some interest in this country to accept its citizenship). This would spread "desired" culture and maybe just improve the quality of life in the "undesired" country a teeny tiny bit.
the porpoise, Dec 30 2015
  

       All very well until those that volunteered realise they’re being sent out to the Marshall Islands (although a relief for those going away from).
Ian Tindale, Dec 30 2015
  

       Max, you can say that again.   

       (Both in the sense that I totally agree with you and in poking fun as well because it did that double print thing on your annotation that we've all experienced.)
doctorremulac3, Dec 30 2015
  

       Questions:
1. What does the ruling class of the non-US nation get out of this?
2. What does the ruling class of the non-US nation get out of this that it might actually want?
  

       In other words, the ruling classes of any nation state tend towards the conservative, as they want to conserve the political infrastructure that keeps them in power. Similarly, the US has been AOK with supporting (or at least not toppling) morally questionable national leaders whose interests can be made, usually by means of financial inducement, to coincide with those of the US. To my mind, what this means is that for this idea to work - to be accepted by both the US executive & legislature and the non-US nation's ruling class - is (a) for the non-US nation to be in such dire need of money that it will accept this form of direct political interference and (b) for the non-US nation to be politically split, such that a relatively small contingent of voters / electors / warlords might be decisive and (c) for the non-US nation to have something that the US needs sufficiently badly that this idea (which jumps from the lofty peak of the post-Enlightenment thought and lands pretty much dead centre in British Imperial Management) looks like a cost effective way of getting it. To descend to reality for a moment, are there any nations that fit these criteria? And if there are, does the migration of the citizens of those nation to the US pose a problem for the US?   

       //net migration is a huge issue//
From a point of view of availability of employees who will work hard and not be too restive, it has been less an issue and more a smash hit.
calum, Dec 30 2015
  

       //1. What does the ruling class of the non-US nation get out of this? 2. What does the ruling class of the non-US nation get out of this that it might actually want?//   

       Tell them we'll give them, the generalissimos and grand poobahs themselves, a suitcase full of cash representing 10% of the money we save on welfare by them keeping their people home and trying to make their countries more livable.   

       I guess that's another idea, but the only way to get things done is with graft and corruption. I was about to say that the only way to get things done IN THE THIRD WORLD is with graft and corruption then I caught myself.
doctorremulac3, Dec 30 2015
  

       // All very well until those that volunteered realise they’re being sent out to the Marshall Islands (although a relief for those going away from).   

       [Ian] your annos are usually thoughtful, entertaining, or on-point, but you're going way off the rails on this idea. Nobody's sending anyone anywhere. As far as I can tell this entire idea is voluntary at both ends. Even your example of the Marshall Islands is completely weird because it looks like a nice place to visit and perhaps do some diving. Is everything all right, bub?
the porpoise, Dec 30 2015
  

       I think he's referencing the higher radiation levels from all those bombs that were tested and rubbing US noses "in it" since we did the testing.
LimpNotes, Dec 30 2015
  

       // a suitcase full of cash representing 10% of the money we save on welfare //
I can't assess whether this is going to be enough to bribe a whole class in non-US nation X, because I have no idea what Americans mean by "welfare" - something to do with cheese, yeah? That said, I would think that even a percentage of the welfare costs attributable to the non-US nation's emigrants to the US would not be enough to sway the non-US nation's political class, as the non-US's nation's political class is likely already the richest in the relevant non-US nation. I mean, I am sure the ruling class would like as much as possible of the USD, but the amount would have to be sufficient to justify ceding political control to the US and this is unlikely to be popular with ruled classes, who tend not to have hardons for the imperial interference like the imperial interferers like to think they do.
calum, Dec 31 2015
  

       Well, yea agreed. And the other downside of that is that by putting a price on keeping these immigrants home the price would immediately go up very quickly.   

       Best to stick with the original idea of one for one citizenship trade. Easy to do the book keeping.
doctorremulac3, Dec 31 2015
  
      
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