Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
h a l f b a k e r y
(Rolling in flour, halfbaking my ass off)

idea: add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random

meta: news, help, about, links, report a problem

account: browse anonymously, or get an account and write.



NATO without US

Fight evil with a bit of chaos...
  [vote for,

Since Russia knows that the US would never risk a shooting war with it, NATO is largely toothless. Cutting the US loose from Article 5 would seem to provide the remaining members with more response options to better respond to Putin.

Actually allowing more response flexibility for all member states so that Putin has to juggle more balls and consider more potential risks might make sense. Overwhelm him with "6-way negotiation" challenges so to speak.

Or even providing just an appearance of more flexibility might make sense.

RayfordSteele, Feb 11 2022

Back when Putin didn't laugh at America. https://www.newswee...mp-considers-883947
[doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022]

hohohohoho https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTb9GP9lVI
Hahahahahaha [xenzag, Feb 12 2022]

Ahahahahahahahhaaa https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hI1nPd7hezM
Genius song [xenzag, Feb 12 2022]

The injecting bleach hoax. https://www.politif...bout-disinfectant-/
[doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022]

Beau of the Fifth Column https://www.youtube...watch?v=EjnmLRDbRQE
Talks about the NATO charter. [RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022]

Ex-acting tribute https://www.reuters...-troops-2022-02-19/
[4and20, Feb 19 2022]

Symbolically at least … https://www.nytimes...ukraine-russia.html
… the United States remains the glue that holds NATO and Europe together [a1, Jan 26 2023]

And of course https://www.gocomic...danziger/2023/01/26
Fodder for da funny pages [a1, Jan 26 2023]

and more https://www.gocomic...lramirez/2023/01/26
[a1, Jan 26 2023]

End of the tank again? https://www.youtube...watch?v=QPth_xqBXGY
[Voice, Jan 26 2023]

Who's the puppet of Putin again? https://www.youtube...watch?v=0mgQaFlo_p8
[doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023]

Whatever happened to that missile defense shield the Pentagon was planning to deploy against Russian in Europe? https://www.theguar...shield-barack-obama
[doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023]

In front of the UN, somebody had the balls to basically tell Putin to go fuck himself. https://www.youtube...watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg
Predicted Germany would become totally dependent on Russian oil if they didn't change course. They laughed, now they're screwed. [doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023]

A brilliant study of mass psychosis. https://www.youtube...watch?v=fdzW-S8MwbI
No matter where you stand politically, this a must watch. [doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023]

Feeling brave? https://midjourney.com
[doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2023]


       Okay, but if you did that, here's a crazy idea, trade the US membership for the Ukraine's.   

       Be interesting just to see the look in Putin's face.
doctorremulac3, Feb 11 2022

       Putin is running rings around everyone, and once again laughing his head off at the antics of America, just as he did in Syria. He watched America's humiliating defeat by the Taliban, and bided his time. No matter what happens he wins this one. His army has rightly terrified everyone as it's intended to. He has made his point. Russia is completely formidable, all powerful, and must be obeyed. China will simply negate all sanctions that follow Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and make them irrelevant. I can't see anything stopping him from invading now. I'm just glad I don't live in the Ukraine and feel very sorry for those who do as no one will risk coming to help them.
xenzag, Feb 11 2022

       //once again laughing his head off at the antics of America,//   

       This from someone who lives in a country that's had two world wars in the last couple of generations that we had to bail you out of.   

       My granduncle risked his life piloting a B24 Liberator in dozens of missions bombing Nazis to protect you guys. He was squadron leader on several of them. Glad he's not alive to hear this disgusting anti American retoric coming out of the country he risked his life to protect.   

       And as far as Putin laughing at America in Syria, was he laughing when Trump bombed the crap out of a couple of hundred Russian soldiers there?   

       Xenzag, this will never change. You insult my country I'm going to respond. If that's the way you like to do things, oh well, but don't complain when you start it and someone stands up to you.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       And let me add, I have people in England that I love, I would never insult an entire country because I don't like one group, or politician, or political party or person on the Halfbakery. I think that's vile.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       The same is felt by me when you insult "lump of half alive flesh now put up as a figurhead by the left doing whatever he's told to by the countries who bought him off. Including China and Russia." That's the man I voted for, and you have him all wrong. He's brought some sense of dignity back after the scurge Trump left behind.   

       It's all trollish bullshit and you know it.   

       Your grandfather would likely recognize fascism and a weak prick with a sad case of malignant narcissism when he saw it. I doubt your grandfather would respect the way Trump treated anyone else he considered beneath his station.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       //That's the man I voted for, and you have him all wrong//   

       And I voted for Trump. Now what? We see who can be nastiest?   

       Look, I don't start these things, if you want to yell and scream, sure. I think it's a waste of time.   

       If you want to get into specifics, that could be interesting, as long as it's interesting. If it's just name calling that gets boring pretty quick.   

       And by the way Ray, aren't you an American? Somebody insults your country like that and you let it go? Even further, attacking the person that's defending your country from a nasty hateful attack?   

       Tell you what, I'll take down the Biden thing if it offends you. There. Like that scene in Tombstone where Doc Holiday puts his guns on the table as an act of good faith.   

       Like Doc says: "There, now we can be friends."
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       I don't think calling out the "antics of America" meant he was insulting an entire country.   

       I'll put your obese, classified-document mishandling, easily-manipulated, tax-cheating, mobbed-up, lecherous, rapacious, misogynistic, functionally illiterate, twice-impeached anti-science sore-loser fuckhead against Joe Biden in any relevant contest you care to mention. And none of that is even remotely overstating just what an incredible douchebag he is.   

       Stroke Trump's ego for a minute and you get whatever you want out of him. Apply that to any foreign negotiation and you have the recipe for disaster.   

       Yes, I'm an American. But I'm not going to go off every time some wag mentions some poor moves my government makes, especially during an exceptionally stupid time in our history.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       //I'll put your obese, classified-document mishandling, easily-manipulated, tax-cheating, mobbed-up, functionally illiterate, twice-impeached anti-science sore-loser fuckhead against Joe Biden in any relevant contest you care to mention.//   

       How about being able to complete a sentence without a teleprompter? Or even WITH a teleprompter.   

       By the way, the "poor moves" she's referring to happened, and are continuing to happen under your boy.   

       Seriously, your choice, you want to debate? Let's debate. You want to see who can call the other guy's candidate the most creative names? I'm totally down with that too. You didn't accept my peace offering so let me know how we're going to proceed. Either way, I'm game.   

       Here, I'll give you a choice of where we're going.   

       A) Biden made a disasterous withdrawl from Afghanistan by not having the military be the last to leave. He also didn't continue Trump's withdrawl strategy of using force at any time necessary if the Taliban got violent. Trump drove ISIS from Iraq after it took over under Obama's watch showing how it's done. All Biden had to do was copy that model and he didn't leaving to us looking incredibly weak and opening the door for Putin and China to see now is the time to attack because there's no competent leadership in the US right now.   

       B) Biden is a stinkybutt whose butt stinks and he smells like a butt and his face is a buttfart.   

       So since we're not doing the be nice thing that I proposed, pick A or B for how you want to proceed.   

       I sort of like B better myself but it's up to you.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Seriously, you're going to hold a lifelong issue such as a lifelong stutter against a man? Are you going to insult FDR's legs, too? Jesus man get some class.   

       I was writing that collective diatribe while you were writing your edits, so I'll let it go. But if you seriously cannot tell the difference between them then I've got no help for you.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       So... B?
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       The Afghan withdrawal was set in motion by Trump's deal with a withdrawal date, behind the backs of the Afghan government, which completely undermined what little respect they had. The resulting loss of faith in the government in Kabul among local and regional leaders quickly led to deals to lay down their arms to the emboldened mujahideen. Trump, like his circus of military advisors, and, well, everyone, failed to realize how compromised they were by that. The wheels were already turning.   

       Mark Esper blamed Trump for continuing to withdraw troops against the advice of his military advisers and despite the Taliban not living up to its end of the bargain. Esper explicitly tied the Doha deal to the collapse of the Afghan government and the resulting chaos.   

       What do you think an orderly exit with an advancing military that can't be held to its word looks like? Were you going to send thousands more troops back in?   

       That was ISIS. None of them belong there. This was the Taliban and their mujahideen buddies in tbeir own country, some of whom switched sides.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       Got it, it’s all Trump’s fault even though Biden was in charge because Trump set a goal date CONTINGENT on the Taliban not doing what they did. And Biden HAD to follow Trump’s plan right? He couldn’t change it. He was only the President, Trump was the former president, need to do what he says. Again, Trump showed how to do it in Iraq and there’s no reason he wouldn’t have followed that model. Biden’s cover story actually really is “Trump told me to do it, what choice did I have?”   

       We didn’t need to send any more troops in, we had control, we had an airbase that should have been the last thing we gave up. We armed the Afghan people with one of the biggest militaries on Earth, we needed to assist them in taking up the job of defending themselves, remember that plan? It was agreed to by everyone, Biden included.   

       It was botched, Biden botched it. He was in charge, not Trump.   

       Actually I do like the A) debate style better. The B) style get a little dull pretty quickly.   

       Let me ask you this, in your opinion, has Trump ever done ANYTHING right and has Biden ever done ANYTHING wrong? I’ll start, Biden continued the distribution of the vaccines that Trump made possible with operation Warp Speed. Kudos.   

       Personally I think you guys should just admit you screwed up and put Hillary in the Whitehouse. Put Kamala in the Supreme Court, put Hillary in the VP slot, Joe steps down, everyone would be happier. Not a fan of Hillary, but at least she’s functional.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       On the idea: for some bizarre reason, most people, even so-called alleged leaders, usually want to follow a leader themselves, no matter how bad. If the U.S. pulled out, who would people turn to? Germany? China? The UK? All bad.   

       On Ukraine: The solution, briefly is to give Ukraine nuclear weapons again. When the Soviet Union fell, Bush Sr. and Cheney convinced/forced Ukraine to give its nukes back to Russia. But Turkey has 20+ American nuclear weapons, which should really be moved somewhere else. Missiles in Turkey are probably the reason for the Cuban missile crisis in the 60's.   

       Rumours have put the missiles in Romania, but no, it appears that Turkey and that yo-yo Erdogan still have them, although only the U.S. has the double-secret launch codes. Still, though Russia and Turkey sometimes disagree, you never hear of Russia building up troops on the Turkish border.
4and20, Feb 12 2022


       You do realize that Ukraine isn't part of NATO, and its charter isn't to keep world peace, right? If Russia looked about to attack, say, Albania things would be different. NATO's teeth are reserved for those attacking NATO countries.   

       //Be interesting just to see the look in Putin's face.//   

       relief and amusement
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       // His army has rightly terrified everyone as it's intended to. He has made his point. Russia is completely formidable, all powerful, and must be obeyed.//   

       Are you even serious?
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       Hahahaha I come to the halfbakery to have a laugh, and there's plenty of great material in the annotations on this idea. I'm not so sure I really know what being serious means. It just seems so uninviting. I'm told I'm quite good at making people go "foamy" with the strategic placing of some simple words. Extra marks if you can spot one of them on my previous comment. Happy days all!
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       //I am a troll//   

Voice, Feb 12 2022

       //Hahahaha I come to the halfbakery to have a laugh, and there's plenty of great material in the annotations on this idea. I'm not so sure I really know what being serious means. It just seems so uninviting. I'm told I'm quite good at making people go "foamy" with the strategic placing of some simple words. Extra marks if you can spot one of them on my previous comment. Happy days all!// --xenzag   

       Okay, so now xenzag has flat out admitted that they come here to troll, perhaps we should all just never respond to them again.
Loris, Feb 12 2022

       As you wish. Have it all to yourself, (does your new gang have a name? - The Bakery Bunch - who's in it?) While you think of name, see if you can learn the words of either of two of my favourite songs. Take your pick. I challenge you to listen without laughing.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Meanwhile doc, if you've calmed yourself, can you answer this simple question about your Trump hero?: Wasn't it Trump who said (inter alia) the virus is a hoax, that can in anyway be cured with bleach injections, and that global warming was another hoax, as proved by the sudden appearance of snowmen in winter?
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Calm yourself Xenxag, I know Trump is the center of your universe and gives your life its only meaning, but he's not my hero, he's just a political outsider who I thought was the lesser of two evils.   

       My main point to you is if you insult my country I'll insult you. But since Trump is the center of your life, I'll step into it for a brief moment, if only to remind myself how lucky I am to not have an ex politician from another country being the only thing giving my existence meaning.   

       As for your allegations, you live in a fantasy world with your cats.   

       1- He said the virus is a hoax while running project Warp Speed to create in record time, vaccines for this hoax and after shutting down travel from China while everybody called him evil for doing so? This hoax is from an edited video. From Politifact: "The video makes it look like Trump called coronavirus “their new hoax.” In fact, there was nearly a full minute between when the president said “coronavirus” and “hoax” during a Feb. 28 rally in North Charleston, S.C." a month after he banned travel from China due to the virus which he fully acknowledged. The hoax he was referring to early in the speech was that he was racist for banning travel from China as that he was overplaying the threat, which according to the Democrats was no big deal witnessed by Nacy Peloci going to Chinatown and hugging people on the street before masks became virtue signals.   

       2- See link about him saying to inject bleach.   

       3- I don't follow him like you do to comment on his every daily move. I have a life.   

       4- And again, he's not my hero, but when I see people like you spreading lies to give their life meaning, like the Russian collusion hoax, I'm going to call them out on it.   

       So I understand trolls would rather anger people and get attention than be nice, and if I were smart I'd ignore it, but rest assured, you want attention by insulting my beloved country I'm always ready to fight back but if that's something you enjoy, might want to seek help because that's very sad.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       He said virus was a hoax as the world's first vaccine was developed in the UK. He was of course acting on Putin's order who got him elected in the first place. If you really loved your country you would be appalled at the lasting legacy of damage to it inflicted by Trump. In my life time, Trump is the living equivalent that Hitler was for my parents, so I think it's right that he is opposed on every occasion.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       I know it's like telling a very religious person there is no god, but Trump saying the virus was a hoax is a hoax. Don't belive me, read the Politifact writeup on it. It was an edited video to fool stupid people. Guess it worked.   

       As far as him being the modern Hitler, so you're so insane you think 9 million Jews being rounded up and slaughtered, women and children murdered by the millions is the equivalent of some guy tweeting some things you don't like.   

       And I'm talking to you? Who's the one who's insane here?
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Trump's global warming will result in entire species being made extinct along with many more millions of deaths than even the holocaust managed. This mass extinction is the Global Warming deniers, like Trump's, genocide. It's potentially the end of all life forms on our planet, and Trump has accelerated it by his lies, idiocy, greed, and feet dragging. So of course I'm going to oppose Trump and all his fellow destructive fruit cakes like Bolsonaro.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Yea, you're a hero. Practically storming the beaches of Normandy here. How brave.   

       Since you think global warming started 6 years ago, I'm guessing you're also against nuclear power.   

       There was a very interesting discussion here about solar panels and their efficacy at fighting global warming. Where were you? There was no mention of Trump so you were nowhere to be found.   

       Let the adults talk here would you please?
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Global warming started a long time ago, but Trump has taken ownership of the genocide it's causing by repeating the lie that it's a hoax. Meanwhile if you prefer to only listen to your own voice you can always connect a vacuum cleaner tube from your mouth to one ear and hammer a cork into the other one. I'm not easily silenced. If armed hooded men (with weapons paid for by collections made in your country to support sectarian terrorists in mine) couldn't shut me up, then you won't have much luck.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Who said anything about shutting you up? I'd defend your right to say moronic stuff like that to the death.   

       The counter to stupid ideas in a free speech society is smart ideas. Let stupid people talk, just make sure smart people get to counter their dumb ideas as well. That's how this should work.   

       I notice you have no opinion on nuclear power as one important tool to fight global warming. Odd that I asked you to speak on the subject instead of doing so you decided to create a character of me who doesn't want you to speak. You ignored my prompt to speak by saying I don't want you to speak.   

       Actually, not odd at all.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       But let's get back to grownup talk here.   

       Ray, you put up what I thought was an interesting idea that has relation with the current situation where a war is about to start. I think THAT is an interesting subject, binary mono-tribalism gets very boring very quick.   

       So Ray, to get back to your idea, what do you think of this:   

       Tell Putin here's the deal. We will sign a treaty saying the Ukraine will NOT join NATO as long as you promise to NOT invade the Ukraine. If you DO invade, the Ukraine IMMEDIATELY becomes part of NATO. Hell, maybe even put in a bonus (for a limited time only) with your idea for the US as well? Say, "Not only will we exclude the Ukraine, but we'll throw in the US as a bonus."   

       Of course with the same caveat that applies if he invades anyplace in Europe. (Because as much as we don't get appreciation for all the lives lost trying to stop Europeans from killing each other, we'd probably do it again.)   

       I think THAT'S a comment in the spirit of this post. I also went back and took out the Biden stuff that offended you. It was meant to offend Xenzag but caused collateral damage where none was intended. Cheerfully withdrawn.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //it was meant to offend Xenzag// It just made me laugh, so you need to do some work on that offending me tactic. I just think you're funny Doc. (see my laughing posts)
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       So I ask you to comment on a complicated scientific issue and instead you dodge the question and laugh hysterically like an insane moron. Got it.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //Cheeefully withdrawan.// Thx. I'll respond in kind later when I have some time.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       Thanks Ray, I do think this is an important and timely subject. We're staring in the face of WWIII here. I don't have the solution but I almost lost my son in the last war to civilize the world, every morning when I shave and brush my teeth, on the shelf below the mirror I have that Dragunov sniper rifle bullet that missed him by a couple of feet to remind me of how lucky I am. (After they heard the shot they took cover and later dug it out of the wall they were standing on) But with that comes what I see as a lesson, don't let other people's kids be put in a position where the next sniper rifle is raised just a few degrees higher such that it ends a young life.   

       I think we should all put our differences aside and try with every atom of our beings to avoid this conflict.   

       Do I know exactly how to do that? Wish I did.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       No. You tried your best to make a remark intended to offend me and I laughed. Making another person laugh is quite a compliment. Try listening to the Laughing Policeman to dispel your anger and aggression.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Like you're not angry and aggressive? Check who always fires the first shots in these flame wars. You just admitted it in an earlier annotation.   

       It's called projecting.   

       And you're boring me. Can we stop communicating now?
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Still making me laugh. You can stop any time you want. All you have to do is stop. You don't need to explain this, as that's a form of continuation.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Back to the grownup talk thing, no idea if this is true or not but the German news organization Der Spiegel reported Friday that Russia is planning to invade Ukraine on Wednesday, Feb 16 according to German intel reports.   

       I have absolutely zero idea if there's any validity to that.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       You're idea won't work at all because NATO doesn't and can't work that way. You cannot turn membership on and off like a lightswitch. Go read the charter or at least listen to this guy in my link sum it up.   

       NATO does a great job of protecting member states. But because it is an all-or-nothing proposition, it screws those without membership status as fodder for the taking. It needs some modernization and flexibility to offer something to those states who are not a part of the cool kids club, or else risks becoming a perverse incentive for authoritarians like Putin to prevent potential member states from ever joining.   

       We're not the world police. However, if we wish to remain an influential superpower we are its citizen patrol watch by default. We either accept that role or we cede the world to China or Russia or some other undesireable monied middle- aged middle-eastern monarch.   

       On Trump (read or skip, I care not).   

       Do you believe that the pen is mightier than the sword? Yes or no? If yes, then a tweet from a President is a powerful thing for good or evil. Whether or not it potentially kills millions of people is just a matter of scale. He's a troll who was put in a position of authority. And one who can't respect anyone else, or himself, for that matter. Obama lived in his head for his entire presidency. Sad.   

       But forget the tweets. You're either ignoring or playing down what he's been up to by focusing on those activities of least consequence, tweets. I can think of at least three felonies he's committed without even trying hard. Trump attacked the foundations of democracy itself, over and over and over again. He did so just about every day of his presidency because he couldn't ever be capable of being the bigger man, and normalized such childish behavior to his followers, worshipers, and cronies.   

       For that I deem him a villainous traitor of the worst kind, and whenever he is rendered incapable of passing another syllable to the media, whether it be by incarceration, death by hitting his head on a gold toilet, choking on a hamberder, or otherwise simply dead and buried, I, myself and I venture a few other million Americans will dance in the streets. And he had better be buried in either an unmarked grave or one that has capacity to handle a large volume of wastewater products.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       Are we really going to bury our heads under the Trump obsession pillow while WW3 starts? He's not president any more, torture murder fantasies aside, exciting or comforting as they might be to some, they have no bearing on the current situation.   

       How about discussing something that matters now, like the handling of this crises by the current president?
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Crises? You mean there's more than one?   

       Go watch the video first. Then get back to me.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       // If armed hooded men (with weapons paid for by collections made in your country to support sectarian terrorists in mine) couldn't shut me up //   

       This could be any number of countries, but the "collections" aspect suggests that you're describing (Northern) Ireland.
4and20, Feb 12 2022

       //Crises? You mean there's more than one? //   

       Now that you mention it, the Ukraine and Taiwan, yes.   

       But looks like you win the spell check portion of the discussion. Feels good doesn't it? Mmmmm. Sweet sweet victory.   

       Anyway, watched the video, I've suggested putting getting something for withdrawing from NATO on the table and making it clear that agressor nations can cause us to re-unite by their warlike actions.   

       So let me know if I spelled everything correctly because that's pretty interesting.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //Wasn't it Trump who said (inter alia) the virus is a hoax, that can in anyway be cured with bleach injections//   

       No. No he didn't. In an earlier conversation you told me you get your opinion of him straight from his own words. The fact that you believe either of these things about his words tells me in fact you get your opinions, as I had intimated, from the lie-dripping lips of a newscaster.   

       //Trump's global warming// BWAAAAHAHAHAHAH hahahahah haaahahahahaaaa heheheeeeee ahhhh
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       Stupid spelling comments are for just a bit of levity.   

       Still smells like appeasement to me in some fashion, and I'd worry about the Baltic states if we formally left.   

       Russia and India are buds. I wonder what sticks we can find that involve them. Some arm-twisting of what agreements with have with India could get interesting. Pressure India to cancel or hold weapons contracts with Russia, perhaps. Not that India could afford to buy our overpriced shit.   

       From this point forward I'm breaking out the delete button on any more Trump / anti-Trump nonsense.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       So Ray, I'm still not sure where you stand, your idea as I understood it was to get out of the mutual defense article of NATO, but the guy in the video contradicts that. Says it's more needed than ever.   

       If you're saying cutting the US out of the picture would allow the remaining NATO states more flexibility to go to war, well, that's getting above my paygrade to speculate about.   

       Anyway, top priority for me is avoiding the current conflict and I had suggested putting negoting points on the table to try to achieve some kind of peaceful resolution to the crisis.   

       We've established that you want to murder some ex politician that has nothing to do with this, but back to the subject at hand I'm curious what your opinion of putting memberships of various countries on the negotiating table in an effort to stave off war. Nevil Chamberlinesque? Maybe, but that's the topic for discussion as I see it.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       I really don't think it's possible to protect Ukraine from invasion without starting a war no one but Russia has the will and resources to win. On the other hand it is possible to make Ukraine too expensive to hold.
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       //From this point forward I'm breaking out the delete button on any more Trump / anti-Trump nonsense.//   

       YES! THANK YOU!   

       So as I was writing we did that cross over thing, so you addressed my Nevil Chamberlin thing and yes, there's no doubt a downside to appeasment.   

       But not sure if this has ever been suggested before, what if Hitler HAD honored the Munich agreement? We now know he never had any intention, but did we know that then?   

       Dhunno. I will say I don't trust Putin to honor anything, but maybe offering peace with sort of an empty, instantly revokable agreement just to make his cover story that he just wants security and peace will have an impact on his cover story of being agressive as an act of self defense.   

       And Voice, these are questions I'd like to see looked into more. This isn't a simple time in history. I'm sure future historians will look back and see what we SHOULD have done, but right now there's an awful lot of "don't know"s. At least from my perspective.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //his cover story of being agressive as an act of self defense.//   

       No one sane believes that cover story anyway. Proving it more clearly wrong won't have any effect.
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       Eh, probably right, but maybe making it clear that we can re- engage our mutual defense at any time can have some deterrence effect. Dhunno.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       I'm searching for ideas that don't result in cratering to an authoritarian, for the same reason that you don't feed the animals at the zoo. I don't have any good answers but am largely thinking out loud. I do think that the best way to stop Vlad is to make him worry about more than a few things at once; make him fight a hydra instead of a unified head that can't act. Make it complicated. Too complicated for his little two-player chess-brain to think.   

       Yes, I was suggesting cutting the US out of this particular picture, or perhaps making the picture more of a nuanced one where a member state could choose to engage or not depending upon the situation.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       They should parachute deliver tens of thousands of Ronald McDonald clown suits in such a way as they straddle the entire demilitarised zone, followed up by thousands of inflatable giant letter "M"s. No military person can resist dressing up as a clown, and the "M"s will add to the total confusion that results with the entire landscape being covered with McDonalds "M"s and half the military running around dressed as clowns. Let the "adults" discuss that solution.
xenzag, Feb 12 2022

       Ukraine has a number of reasonable excuses for not negotiating with separatists, but even admitting there was no excuse for Russia taking Crimea, ethnic Russians make up a large part of Donbas and Luhansk and some solution not involving war or negotations with Russia must be considered. Ukraine is not going to get those regions back with war.
4and20, Feb 12 2022

       In this part of the world it would almost seem to make sense to not have big nation-states but instead have simple regional city-states that are less focused on national borders but more subdivided.   

       I'm not entirely convinced that anywhere that contains ethnic Russians should become part of Russia; that's too easily gamed by the powers. But I don't see a path forward that doesn't involve screwing Ukraine.   

       Russia has cash reserves to survive sanctions and efforts at making Ukraine expensive.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       Ukraine's official news agency (in English) has referred to a return of those regions to Ukrainian territory but with some degree of increased independence as a "poison pill" which Russia will use to control Ukrainian politics. This argument makes no sense to me.
4and20, Feb 12 2022

       //Make it complicated. Too complicated for his little two-player chess-brain to think.//   

       I don't have a problem with that.   

       My problem with my armchair general skills is I look back at past historical military blunders and being honest I would have in many instanced done the same thing that the leaders back then did.   

       Vietnam for instance, I would have looked at Korea and said "Hey, same thing, communist north invading the south, we drove them back to the 38th parallel so we'll just do that again here in Vietnam." We know how that turned out. Like I said, I probably would have tried to get a peace agreement with Hitler too. if it had worked, it would have avoided WW2.   

       So what's changed? The only thing that's changed is my perception of my ability to armchair general to any advantage until after the battle is over.   

       So I'll just hope the guys in charge know what they're doing over there.   

       (Well if that isn't a sentence that portends doom I don't know what is.)
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //I'm sure future historians will look back and see what we SHOULD have done//   

       Maybe IN 2000 years, when all nuance has been smoothed over by the sands of time and it's once again easier to hand-wave a solution.
Voice, Feb 12 2022

       //Russia has cash reserves to survive sanctions and efforts at making Ukraine expensive.//   

       And what if we just drive them into a financial / military alliance with China? Pretty sure China would buy all the petroleum / natural gas they have, and that's an alliance I'd rather not have to contend with. Although it's probably too late at this point, I think it's already happened.   

       You also gotta wonder how much all this anti Russia rhetoric in the US has pissed off the Russians. Anybody who doesn't want war with Putin is his puppet, that sort of thing. I'm pretty sure they know about this. At some point doesn't poking the bear have consequences? A few years back a certain unmentionable political figure suggested being friends with Russia, we know how that worked out.   

       Well, we'll see won't we? Maybe this is all nonsense posturing and we'll all look back at this and laugh.   

       Here's the post I'd like to see in a year: "Hey, what ever happened to that whole WW3 thing?"   

       By the way Ray, looking at some of the other vids from that Beau guy. Some interesting stuff, thanks for the tip. Don't agree with everthing he says but he's got some interesting points and he's a thoughtful guy.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       There aren't many active Cold Warriors so far as I know, so the idea that the U.S. should befriend Russia was an obvious point as far back as when the U.S. caudled Yeltsin. Seems to me that most Americans would be apathetic regarding a Russian alliance of one kind or another. Orange stupid man's METHODS were even a greater problem than his rhetoric.
4and20, Feb 12 2022

       LOL, oh well, the name won't be mentioned will just talk in code now.   

       Hey, this one's on me, I brought him up, guilty as charged, won't happen again.   

       But I'm a fan of detente, is there anybody else out there that's even suggested working towards friendly relations with Russia that includes working towards bringing them into the civilized family of nations? At what point do you turn the bully towards violence when you could have shown him the civilized way to do things? Or do we just assume some countries are irredeemable and give up on them?   

       I guess my point is, it's fine to carry a stick but should a carrot be considered as well?   


       And speaking of needing bad guys, maybe we need bad countries to give us something to hate. I'm certainly no fan of the CCP and North Korea, but I wouldn't mind somehow working towards turning them civilized. German and Japan turned out okay after their little experiment with evil empire building.   

       Although it could be said it's because we bombed some sense into them from twenty thousand feet so maybe that's not the best example.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       Beau is a great guy to watch. Smart, humble, well- informed, a bit unexpected in analysis by his appearance.   

       Biden won't risk WW3 by any means.   

       I don't like offering carrots to saber-rattlers. It feels like rewarding terrorists.   

       If you don't have enemies that are the real bad guys, you start seeing them everywhere out of a need to drive change I suspect.   

       We've spent decades showing them the civilized way. They just need to internalize it. Can't do it for them.
RayfordSteele, Feb 12 2022

       I hope you're right. I think it would be a dumb move on Putin's part but I thought invading Poland was a dumb move too. Sometimes maniacs have their own agenda.   

       Guess we'll see.
doctorremulac3, Feb 12 2022

       //China would buy all the petroleum / natural gas they have//   

       I researched this question back in 2014 (I had shares in Gazprom), and it's only half true; yes, China will buy, but at a much lower price than, say, Germany.
pertinax, Feb 19 2022

       //maybe we need bad countries to give us something to hate//

There are no bad countries, only bad people. And maybe politicians like to portray them that way in order to deflect attention away from their own failings?

//We've spent decades showing them the civilized way.//

I'm no Putin apologist; he's a scumbag of the highest order. But this comment is laughable.
DrBob, Feb 19 2022

       // But this comment is laughable. //   

       Indeed. I was just guffawing mirthlessly at some U.S. General saying that he knew exactly what Putin was doing because he'd been doing it himself recently.
4and20, Feb 19 2022

       Could you name that general, [4and20]? Or, better, provide a link?
pertinax, Feb 19 2022

       //showing them the civilized way.//   

       I don't know whether you remember this, [ray], but during the period between the end of communism and the arrival of Putin, "showing them the civilised way" consisted in large measure of free-market ideologues going to Moscow and explaining that government was the problem, and that, once government had been swept out of the way, everything would sort itself out.   

       So that was done, and the result was a nation of gangsters, prostitutes and suddenly destitute retirees.   

       This makes it easy for Putin to point to that era, and say "You remember what Western 'freedom' was like? Nobody wants that!"
pertinax, Feb 21 2022

       I was so hopeful for those guys when Boris Yeltsin was in charge. Oh well.
doctorremulac3, Feb 21 2022

       Yes, I remember that. The unrecognized problem was that they had no reliable institutions in place to act as guide rails and we had a failure of imagination to understand what could happen in that kind of corrupt scenario.   

       We have or at least had a few guide rails. People invest over here because their money is seen as fairly safe and there are a few laws that keep the wheels from completely coming off under anything but 2008-ish scenarios. Those should've been what they took notice of as 'the civilized way.' But just like the truth has trouble with its zipper getting stuck while the lies do a Barry Allen impression, so does institutional development lag unprincipled opportunists and criminals.
RayfordSteele, Feb 21 2022

       [pertinax] in the worst of the 90s they were better off than in the best of the 60s or 80s (the two softest communist regime) period -- and they're still better off than then.   

       More than anything, Putin cannot tolerate former Soviet republics, particularly Ukraine and Belarus, having it better than Russia itself, as that would put his entire regime at risk. This is not about fantasies of reconstructed Russia -- it's about survival. So they'll push as hard as they can.   

       While the current admin's energy policy is helping Putin, the threatened sanction regime will in the end almost certainly make him back off from a direct attack -- but nothing will stop him from doing everything he can to get a puppet government there again.   

       [Ray] everything you say about Trump is true -- and yet STILL I would venture more people actually read Trump's books (though not written by him) then either Obama's or Hillary's :) narcissism indeed
theircompetitor, Feb 21 2022

       The 90's were a time of upheaval for Russia. Even if they may had it better economically, what they'll remember is the fear of instability due to the rapid change that exposed the corruption that was largely always there to the trained eye.   

       Obama's book was a best-seller if I recall. People talked about it here and there and everywhere. Remember how much time Fox and company devoted to trying to decipher his father and whether Obama was a closet Muslim? The takeoff of that angle was partly because of his book I'll bet. And this was against a backdrop where nobody really cares about Presidential memoir books besides the politics-as- pro-sports crowd. Because frankly, who actually read HW's book? Or Bob Dole's? Or Bill's? They're usually as consequential as the Oval Office curtain choices.
RayfordSteele, Feb 21 2022

       indeed. the point though is there's no one more narcicistic than a forty something senator who'd done nothing to date (and gets a Nobel Peace Prize for existing -- or is it for correctly guessing Russia as a coming menace? oh no, that was Romney), or a seventy something wife of an ex president, who think they deserve it. The big difference with Trump is his toddler like inability (and utter lack of desire) to hide it.   

       with all that said, I think an expat who still had relatives there in the 90s, and who talks to people from there (both Ukraine and Russia, as well as Poland and the Baltics) on some basis knows better than what you read on CNN. But of course I'm biased by my knowledge of it.
theircompetitor, Feb 21 2022

       You give me too little credit. I've been there, studied the language, know a few people as well. My prof, for example, who encouraged us to become part of the post-Soviet Russian quasi-business machine.   

       Quick: name a felony committed by an Obama staffer that doesn't involve the words 'email.'
RayfordSteele, Feb 21 2022

       //they were better off//   

       There may be some measures by which that's true, but I don't think that's the way they remember it, [their].   

       Kiev in the mid 1990s (I think it was 1994) was the angriest place I've ever been. I'd been in other places where I hadn't felt safe walking around alone, but there, I didn't feel safe walking around in a group of six to eight people. I realise this is a subjective measure, but almost everyone I saw looked as if they'd had it up to here, and were just about ready to go postal. Further west, I saw election posters with a slogan which translated as "It's time to go back into the woods and sharpen our knives".   

       Moscow, that I visited a few years later, was not quite so angry; a lot of the money being sucked out of Russia made a stopover in Moscow before reaching its final destination in numbered Swiss accounts, or in the London property market, but it would not have been to everyone's taste. The English language Moscow Times contained a review of a night club as follows:   

       "There is no gun check on the door of this club; if you ask a girl to dance, you will be shot and killed".   

       I did not personally verify this claim, but it was consonant with the general atmosphere of the city.   

       I'm not sure that per capita GDP figures quite capture this sort of thing; great if you want to write picaresque stories, but probably not a place where you'd want to raise a family, or grow old.
pertinax, Feb 21 2022

       touché [ray]   

       nevertheless I'll stand by my assessment. yes there was a period of lawlessness and nostalgia for Communism as would be inevitable. but the state had already collapsed prior, and real near starvation for pensioners was already an issue (and incidentally, their current state is not much better)   

       [pertinax] -- my friends and I frequently joke about retiring in Sochi -- as the saying goes, if we have to live in a quasi socialist country, could just as well be our country of birth.   

       it's a joke, mind you, I'd rather choose Portugal, and my wife, who's from Latvia, can easily get an EU passport :)   

       and if I retire anywhere, it's much more likely to be Florida or Texas...
theircompetitor, Feb 21 2022

       Given the enormous difference in buying power is the US really more attractive? In Latvia couldn't you, with the same amount of money you could spend on a little cottage in Texas, have a large house with guards, maids, and a cook?
Voice, Feb 21 2022

       the weather is just not nice enough in Latvia, though it'd be nice to have a summer home there
theircompetitor, Feb 21 2022

       That's why they make Pacific islands.
RayfordSteele, Feb 21 2022

       Wouldn't it then be called the European Treaty Organization?
sanman, Feb 22 2022

       RayfordSteele - your arguments are nonsense. Biden had no obligation to withdraw on any deadline set by Trump and then blame him for it later. Biden made the decision to withdraw, and should own it. Otherwise why did he run for office, if only to spend his term blaming Trump? Biden had freedom of action, and made the choice not to stay. The Buck Never Stops With Biden, apparently.
sanman, Feb 22 2022

       it wanted to stop at Biden's but then realized he's going to Delaware, and who wants that
theircompetitor, Feb 22 2022

       sanman, you don't understand that Biden is not the only party involved here in an international agreement. He can't just snap his fingers and wish what Trump did all away. It doesn't work that way. There are these people known as the Afghanis, the Taliban, the ash heap of their government, etc. that were all parties.
RayfordSteele, Feb 23 2022

       the eighties just returned that phone call Obama was talking about in the Candy Crawley debate
theircompetitor, Feb 24 2022

       Interesting article in NY Times this morning (link) about USA agreeing to send tanks to Ukraine. Underlying premise being this was more about showing unity and helping convince Germany and England send THEIR tanks - which will get there before General Dynamics even builds this batch of M1’s.   

       Apart from the notion about how important USA is to NATO… one line from the article jumped out at me: “…even eight decades after World War II, European nations would be uncomfortable seeing German tanks rumbling into battle.” That reminded me of Tom Lehrer’s MLF Lullaby.   

       … and We Will All Go Together When We Go   

       … and Who’s Next? (but I admit that one was a bit if stretch).   

       It’s hard to say if Lehrer was especially prescient, or if some things really haven’t changed over the decades. Or centuries.
a1, Jan 26 2023

       I'm so glad this has been re-churned. The mad Trumpaholic comments made me laugh all over again, as they always do. [aside - is there a Trumpaholics Anonymous organisation they could join? - it could be called T-anon and be the twin of Q-anon]
xenzag, Jan 26 2023

       //Interesting article in NY Times this morning (link) about USA agreeing to send tanks to Ukraine. Underlying premise being this was more about showing unity and helping convince Germany and England send THEIR tanks - which will get there before General Dynamics even builds this batch of M1’s.//   

       The article is paywalled, and I can't read it, but from what you say it seems... somewhat out of date.   

       The US has already sent Bradleys, which are effectively a light tank, albeit not officially designated as one.
And the UK has already committed to sending Challenger 2s, which are officially main battle tanks, albeit awkwardly incompatible with most other tank equipment. One batch underway, and I believe with the intention of more to follow.

       The news here says it was all about putting pressure on Germany to allow other countries to send their German-made and contractually limited tanks onward, as well as showing ongoing, long-term commitment to supporting Ukraine.
And it worked, too! Chancellor Scholz has folded now his awkward condition has been met, and Germany is allowing it.

       At this point it looks like this is exactly the sort of thing NATO was set up for, and I think it's doing better than I would have reasonably expected - if maybe not quite as much as a hypothetical optimal defence organisation might.
The USA has performed I would say admirably, most of Europe has exceeded my expectations, and other NATO members are absolutely doing their bit.
Loris, Jan 26 2023

       Xen, stop trolling. Doctor, stop being trolled. And also stop flaming.
Voice, Jan 26 2023

       I agree, let's take those comments down. Xen, I'll ask you nicely xenzag, please stop. Let's show how the peace process works okay? I'll go first.   

       As far as the grownup part of this conversation, my guess is Putin's in this for the long haul and I'm hoping it will be his downfall but I'm unfamiliar with Russian mindset. Do they support this war? Do they support Putin? That would be good to know but nothing out of Russia is going to be believable, at least to me.   

       They do seem to settle for dictators, they loved Stalin (or else). Do they support Putin too? Is the average Russian all excited about their youth getting killed so Putin can make money off the natural resources or the Ukraine? Dunno. Be interesting to find out.   

       Took mine down in good faith, the good will wasn't returned so I'll put a softened version of mine back up.   

       //is there a Trumpaholics Anonymous organisation they could join?//   

       Who's the Trumpaholic? The person who never thinks about him or the person who thinks about nothing else, obsessively posts about him constantly and inserts long boring rants about him at every opportunity?
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       IMO Putin is hoping for a freeze/ceasefire that will allow Russia to de-facto annex that territory over the next five to ten years while Russia builds up the men and material to ratchet the line a little further West again.
Voice, Jan 26 2023

       Not sure what the best strategic course of action is, but as for the tactical, I question the addition of tanks to the battle. One ten thousand dollar drone takes out a multi million dollar tank, and if this is a war of attrition, those numbers mean something.   

       If I were in charge, I'd set the stage for building our drone warfare capabilities and use this as the stage to test them.   

       Tanks are a hundred year old WW1 vintage technology that I think brings up the battlefield version of the naval warfare idiom: "There are two types of ships in war, submarines and targets." This would be "There are two types of mobile units in land war, drones and targets."   

       Friendly reach out: What do you think Xenzag? What's your opinion on what might be the most appropriate tactical maneuvering stratagem we should employ at this point?
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       // so glad this has been re-churned //   

       Happy to oblige. I was trying to come up with a fresh idea on this one ("A thank you (tank you?) card" ... to Putin for pulling USA back into NATO?) but figured this was as good a place to drop it as any.
a1, Jan 26 2023

       // (NY Time) article is paywalled //   

       I'm sorry [Loris], I didn't realize that. I have 1Blocker on my iPad and that must be letting me slip through the cracks there. That's not the main reason I installed 1Blocker, but a happy side effect, I guess (shrug).
a1, Jan 26 2023

       One thing I'd do as president, I'd announce a clarified NATO declaration with great specificity to this conflict and make sure I read it for all the world to see at a specially called NATO meeting.   

       "We NATO members, will not, under any circumstances attack any Russian cities or in fact any areas within the Russian borders. This is a defensive war only and only a nuclear strike on NATO countries will result in that rule being broken by full nuclear retaliation that will result in the end of Russia and indeed of civilization itself. But ONLY a nuclear strike by Russia will result in the total annihilation of this historical country and its population. We do not want that and will only do it it in retaliation for a nuclear strike on a NATO country.   

       That being said, we will use any non nuclear means necessary within the boundaries of the Ukraine, so long as Russian weapons are not used, to defend the sovereignty of the Ukrainian people."   

       Putin's using the bullshit line of NATO attacking Russian cities as a premise for them being the good guys. I'd make that really really clear that's not going to happen. Pictures of anti aircraft missiles on rooftops in Moscow, crap like that. Time to disarm that propaganda campaign.   

       Might even add: "No conventional bomb will ever be dropped on a Russian city, and no nuclear bomb will ever be dropped unless the same was done first, by Russia, to a NATO city."
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Russia makes most of its money from selling oil and gas to places like India so I would make those countries the focus of economic penalties as a deterrent. The Russian economy has not been stressed sufficiently yet so that would be one of my focuses. Militarily I would swamp the Russian conscripts with rewards for defecting. Parachute in tens of thousands of cheap mobile phones and many will be used, to access the promised rewards [digital currency that must be sent back home via internet connection in order to be used] and at the same time this gives away their positions. Undermining their discipline and morale while sewing confusion and paranoia is a war I am confident can be won.
xenzag, Jan 26 2023

       //Russia makes most of its money from selling oil and gas to places like India so I would make those countries the focus of economic penalties as a deterrent.//   

       So declare economic war on our current allies or neutral countries. And when India says "Screw you then, we're on Russia's side." then what?   

       Russia's trade with China has surged, China will buy all of Russia's oil and assisting that will only strengthen the forged alliance between the two countries that has become, and will continue to be a growing strategic disaster for NATO, especially with the looming threat to Taiwan from China.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Ooh, that cell phone idea is insidious. The problem is making sure civilians aren't being targeted.
Voice, Jan 26 2023

       Watched the link about tanks being declared obsolete for a hundred years. He only mentioned drones at the end as something that might make tanks obsolete, but countered that the tanks would just carry a lot of drones.   

       Well, drones are already blowing up tanks, not seeing any tanks that control an air wing of anti drone drones which he didn't suggest, and that would be needed to counter the anti tank drone threat. He just suggested that tanks could control a bunch of anti tank drones which would be an ideal weapon against OTHER tanks.   

       He also made a point about active armor, which works once. So the first drone doesn't work, but the second one will, or the third, fourth, fifth etc. With the cost differential between the two fighting elements it's strictly a logistics battle. Tanks are slow, vulnerable and expensive. Drone are fast, numerous and cheap.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       // the second one will, or the third, fourth, fifth etc//   

       If you want cheap drones you'll have to settle for drones that can't hit precisely the same spot. So they'll hit a different ERA module.
Voice, Jan 26 2023

       Well, we've got video technology on a hundred dollar iPhone that can accurately detect where the eyes, mouth, ears etc are located on a human face and process this information for various reasons. Finding a previous impact point on a tank would be comparatively easy.   

       But that wouldn't be necessary, all the drones would just be programmed to hit the same spot. If they heavily armor that spot then the whole drone fleet changes the target zone with the few clicks of a keyboard.   

       And the most expensive and high tech drone is still a fraction of the price of a tank. I'm talking about flying bombs with targeting systems. Possibly loitering, possibly just sent out in a swarm.   

       Nobody knows for sure of course, but my guess is that drones are the future of warfare and tanks are as obsolete as the calvary charge with the advent of the machine gun.   

       Could be wrong, but that's my guess.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       //Screw you then, we're on Russia's side." then what?// India is already on Russia’s side by buying Putin’s oil and gas with complete impunity. This undermines Europe’s boycott. No one can do anything about China as western countries get everything made there and they are now the world’s biggest economy, but countries like India have a lot to loose. Years of people like Merkel and you know who (who's name cannot be mentioned) crawling up Putin's arse has created this situation and there is nothing that can undo that. He got emboldened by the combined failures of Syria and the defeat in Afghanistan then took his opportunity. The best chance really is actually to bleed him out as Vietnam bled out America ie winning despite not being militarily able of winning. Ukraine cannot defeat Russia but Russia can defeat Russia. This is exactly also what already happened to Russia in Afghanistan.
xenzag, Jan 26 2023

       //but countries like India have a lot to loose.//   

       That's my point, we work towards getting them away from Russia and nasty aggression isn't going to do that, we simply push them into Putin's arms.   

       This kind of "WAR WAR WAR!!! ATTACK EVERYBODY!!!" rhetoric is what got us here in the first place. Fine for trolling on a social site, not so great for dealing with world powers that have nuclear weapons.   

       But let me ask you this xen, why are you so obsessed with communicating with me? You've come right out and said you love taunting me. It never works out, I respond, (I have no problem meeting nasty with nasty, it's even kind of fun) you get butthurt and threaten to leave. I calm you down and coax you back by being nice, then you get into this "I need to post something to attack doc!" mode. Why do you even think about me? Are you lonely? Get some friends maybe. Go out, be social. Maybe get a significant other. Takes a bit of work but it's really worth it.   

       If I'm a central figure in your life you might want to re-evaluate that life.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Here's a list of Putin's invasions and who was US President at the time.   

       Second Chechen war - Clinton   

       Invasion of Georgia - Bush   

       Invasion of Syria - Obama   

       Invasion of Kaxakhstan - Biden   

       Invasion of Ukraine - Biden   

       There's a name missing from that list of presidents and the Putin invasions that happened on their watch.   

       And that name just happens to be one I think everybody here would be perfectly happy to never see on this website again.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Can we get Putin and Trump naked and greased up in a wrestling ring to sort this out once and for all?   

       Anyone who thinks their guy is better, they can get to take on the winner.   

       Beats all this war and diplomacy shite
pocmloc, Jan 26 2023

       I so love that idea.   

       Putin's like 3' 4" so Orangemanbad would just have to lie on top of him.   

       Actually, let's leave out the naked part.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Maybe I missed it but Putin's beef, at least officially, is Nato, and Trump was anti-Nato.   

       So if Trump pulled out of Nato (which means the idea of this is already baked by Trump, except that the EU would remain toothless), Putin would have been given exactly what he wanted, and then either 1) he could have collected Ukraine much easier or 2) he could have left Ukraine as a puppet/buffer state.   

       Trump only had four years before he was given the boot. Putin was working on Trump to implode Nato, giving him back massages and beating him with birch branches. Trump didn't deliver in time and was given the boot, so he had to do it the hard way.   

       So now we have this cockfight going on over there where everyone is feeding their favorite bird, standing back, and placing bets. 20 years later it'll be deemed a waste of time and a tremendous amount of lead to pick out of the cereal, but excellent practice for WWIII.
mylodon, Jan 26 2023

       Certainly AI is watching this with one beady eye (or all the eyes of all the drones over Ukraine right now)
mylodon, Jan 26 2023

       That's the much needed cover story, and boy, what a stretch. Putin takes over vast swaths of land under the other presidents but Trump is bad at keeping Putin at bay for some convoluted reason? Yea, maybe Putin saw some hope for peace. Do you know that Putin was open to a peace treaty with the Ukraine where   

       Trump said the US was sick of being the main funder of Nato and wanted to work towards detente with Russia just like he wanted to calm relations with North Korea (which he did and got accused of being a puppet of that regime) and to put our energy into standing up to China.   

       But the military industrial complex doesn't like people talking about things like negotiations, detente, peace and even working with historical enemies. Guess who won that battle.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       I think that's a bit of a silly question. But this is a silly forum.   

       The red-hatted maga movement is alive in current politics. the hatted people walk about the world, looking for meaning and forums to contribute to. they felt like their time was too brief.   

       People talk about reagan and jfk, why not about someone who is currently on the campaign train not just for himself but has inserted himself into the careers of dozens of other active politicians.   

       so i don't think it's peculiar to include him in discussions, especially about recent and ongoing events. Trying to exclude him or clinton or obama from political discussions to reduce personal stress, will be a battle that is never won. we have to process it, like a grain of sand, trying desperately to turn it into a pearl we can live with.
mylodon, Jan 26 2023

       But can we talk about something else, maybe... 10% of the time?   

       /'/the hatted people walk about the world//   

       Pretty dehumanizing description. Should be put them in death camps?   

       I put up a link to a nuanced, interesting, thoughtful exploration of things. Any interest? Nope. Orangeman bad.   

       Tell you what m. Watch the video, let me know your thoughts and in return we'll talk about your orangeman menace all you want okay? Fair trade?
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       Personally I hadn't thought about him for days but when someone first brought him up and then kept talking about him with great energy, I got sucked in.   

       I've always placed his contribution in rough thirds. 1/3 great, 1/3 catastrophic and 1/3 bumbling   

       i think it's an even handed way to sum it up. So orange bad man has some nuance for sure.
mylodon, Jan 26 2023

       ? the video about family values?   

       i can't sit through an hour of something i don't know is even related. forums are for quick cheap shots.
mylodon, Jan 26 2023

       So… no. Okay. Orangeman bad chants are certainly easier on the ol’ thinky ball.   

       It's not about "family values" it's about social structures that make up various societies. Exogamous communitarian, egalitarian nuclear, authoritarian family, community family etc. Has nothing to do with the Trump/Non Trump binary view of the universe, that is, "There are only two ways to view the universe, two philosophies, "Trump supporting or Non-Trump supporting."   

       If you change your mind and would like to discuss something completely unrelated to that, love to hear your thoughts on the video.
doctorremulac3, Jan 26 2023

       //If I'm a central figure in your life you might want to re-evaluate that life.// The halfbakery represents a tiny fraction of what I do, and you present a microscopic feature of my interest here, so you are quite an irrelevance to me. So sorry to burst your "I'm so important" ego bubble. (Try blowing a better one next time hahahaha) Instead of always focusing on me (which I never do with you) be a bit more inventive and less prone to text rage. (So sorry I wind you up so easily)
xenzag, Jan 27 2023

       Seriously, get someone in your life you can spend time with, talk to, do things with. It might take some time and effort on your part but I guarantee, you’ll never think about me again.
doctorremulac3, Jan 27 2023

       Dear gods, are you still fucking yammering on about that seditious Trump asshole? And you have the nerve to tell others to get a life? You've got to be kidding, man. Get the fuck over it.
tatterdemalion, Jan 29 2023

       // There are only two ways to view the universe, two philosophies, "Trump supporting or Non-Trump supporting //   

       I think you meant that sarcastically, but it may be so to those who distill everything into a cult of personality. Each side sees the other as only consisting of dupes or collaborators; no nuance, no in-between.   

       When you focus on political philosophy instead of their standard bearers, there’s a much smoother continuum.   

       FWIW, I think Trump is a criminal, malicious narcissist, and anyone who defends him must be a dupe or a collaborator. But if you want to talk about why USA should or shouldn’t be part of NATO, there’s a lot to consider and the bloviating fathead should be a non-issue.
a1, Jan 29 2023

       Lighten up tat. I didn't bring him up, I never do. I try my best to purge this site of these Orangemanbad rants.   

       And you're the one who revived what was a thankfully fading Orangemanbad infected post. Let it go.   

       //I think Trump is a criminal, malicious narcissist, and anyone who defends him must be a dupe or a collaborator.//   

       I disagree with the first two words of that sentence.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2023

       // I try my best to purge this site of these Orangemanbad rants.   

       Try harder.
tatterdemalion, Jan 30 2023

       Again, you're the one whose Trump obsession revived this fading Orangemanbad infected post.   

       Let - it - go.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2023

       if you folks have not tried midjourney yet (in my view more ready for prime time than Dall-e and diffusion -- you should. It's a pretty great outlet for creativity.
theircompetitor, Jan 30 2023

       if you folks have not tried midjourney yet (in my view more ready for prime time than Dall-e and diffusion -- you should. It's a pretty great outlet for creativity.
theircompetitor, Jan 30 2023

       Does it do a better job with eyes?
a1, Jan 30 2023

       //if you folks have not tried midjourney yet (in my view more ready for prime time than Dall-e and diffusion -- you should. It's a pretty great outlet for creativity.//   

       This is really our buddy TC? Not an AI impersonation?   

       TC, if you've been taken over by midjourney AI type "Of course not, that's patently silly!" and we'll come and rescue you.   

       Then let us know how to come and rescue you.
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2023


       midjourney does a better job at understanding your prompt. The tech is roughly equivalent. In the end, people with actual understanding of art and photography would do better. But it is freaking amazing.
theircompetitor, Jan 30 2023

       I'll check it out, but I'm feeling like a kid when we used to explore abandoned houses. It was like "You go in first!" and to feign bravery I'd always be the first idiot in. Hope I don't become part of the Matrix.   

       (put a link up for other adventurous souls)
doctorremulac3, Jan 30 2023

       /imagine orange bad man
mylodon, Jan 30 2023


back: main index

business  computer  culture  fashion  food  halfbakery  home  other  product  public  science  sport  vehicle