h a l f b a k e r yYou think: Aha! We go: ha, ha.
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
I can't think of an idea off the top of my head to legitimize this posting so I'm just throwing it out there.
You guys know more than I do. I didn't finish high school, so it's kind of a given. Let me ask you something.
Are any of you able to find the location of the very first alternating current
hydro electric power plant on Earth?
Does that not sound like something easily searchable?
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
While you look I'll tell you about the place.
It's just down the road from here.
It was called the Cascade Project based on the name of the falls and nearby Cascade City, (no longer exists, golf course now). The cascade project settled the rivalry between Nikola Tesla and Edison over Direct or Alternating current use.
It has been completely dismantled and so has it's history.
Try to find the Cascade Power and Light Company on wiki.
Try to find Cascade Dam.
Try to find any link of Tesla to this place.
G'head.
Try.
I'll wait...
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
[pocmloc, Jan 12 2021]
Cascade Dam, Cascade Canyon, Kettle River
http://www.virtualm....php?action=cascade
So, sounds like they're planning to rebuild this? [jutta, Jan 12 2021]
Hanlon's razor
https://en.wikipedi...ki/Hanlon%27s_razor
[hippo, Jan 13 2021]
I don’t know if it’s only Americans who surpress history...
https://www.america...american-democracy/
[xandram, Jan 13 2021]
Probably not this one.
https://majorprojec...-Power-Project/3710
[whatrock, Jan 13 2021]
Just a small blurb about the damn being built in 1897
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Cascade_City
also a picture of The power plant [xandram, Jan 13 2021]
found this video. There are tidbits of info about the power station And Tesla. Also some info in the comments.
https://youtu.be/bo8DlYHSb54
[xandram, Jan 14 2021]
"The first task of West Kootenay Power in 1897 was to deliver power to the mines and town of Rossland. They hired the Edison Electric Company to oversee the construction of Bonnington Falls 4000 horsepower hydroelectric power station and erect a 20,000-volt transmission line. ""This was done through erecting a 60,000-volt line and acquiring the small Cascade Power and Light Company plant on the Kettle River."
https://www.insulators.info/articles/wkp/
Tesla did shit on the west end of Canada. Recognize already. Edison was unsrcupulous, Fragging an entire region because he had a stick up his ass. Fuck'n wanker if you ask me. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jan 17 2021]
Craigside 1878 England
https://en.m.wikipe...ki/Hydroelectricity
According to Wikipedia, the first one was in England as I already pointed out. [xenzag, Dec 13 2021]
[link]
|
| |
Sorry [2fries} don't know. People do like to halt what they can't control and cascades in various forms can run uncontrolled. |
|
| |
"In 1878, the world's first hydroelectric power
scheme was developed at Cragside in
Northumberland, England by William Armstrong. It
was used to power a single ... "
Simple search results |
|
| |
//Try to find the Cascade Power and Light Company on wiki// |
|
| |
If the page doesn't exist, why not just create it? |
|
| |
//Try to find any link of Tesla to this place// |
|
| |
These things, both virtual (info in books and online) and real-world (signposts, memorials) don't just come into being spontaneously; individual humans have to do work to create them. |
|
| |
Its a lot of effort and so most Humans don't bother. |
|
| |
Sometimes a Human is bothered enough to take action... like you have done here. |
|
| |
But there are layers of psychology and stuff in how its done. This post doesn't seem to me like the kind of thing that will cascade through the generations creating a "scene", whereas organising an annual guided tour with invited guest speakers might actually get somewhere.... but what do I know. |
|
| |
Starting from articles on the Wardenclyffe Tower project might throw up references. |
|
| |
This question reminds me of certain books which are, in my
view, quite important, but whose online footprint is tiny. |
|
| |
Sorry, I don't have any leads about the power plant. |
|
| |
Yes I did specify the first 'AC' power plant in the world.
[Jutta] has provided a link to Cascade Dam, but even 'it's' official historical record has no mention of Tesla or it's origin as the first AC generation station, nor does it show on any wiki page. |
|
| |
I would like to create the Wiki page and update other pages with the info but it is extremely hard to find. |
|
| |
There is mention in the information package for the Cascade Heritage Project, (which was to recreate the dam and power plant but was squashed by local interests), and a single shout-out on the Calgary Tesla Society page. |
|
| |
I just can't help but wonder if Edison was a sore enough loser to ensure that tracks were erased. |
|
| |
It just seems like a pretty significant historical event to be so hard to find evidence of. |
|
| |
hmmm
This is from the Cascade Heritage Power Project page. |
|
| |
"The Cascade site played an important role in the development of the electric power industry in the world. It was one of the very first locations where 3-phase 60-cycle alternating current generators were pioneered, including the longest and highest-voltage transmission lines in use up to that time. The Cascade project settled a rivalry between Thomas Edison, who promoted the use of direct current, and Nikola Tesla of Westinghouse who promoted the new technology of alternating current. The plant was purchased by West Kootenay Power and Light in 1907 and operated until 1919 when the power it generated was replaced by power from their Kootenay River Dams." |
|
| |
Alan Bean, and no, because the USSR "retired hurt" before the end of the bout. |
|
| |
(and we saw what you did there - put it back. We have it cached, you know). |
|
| |
That raises the intriguing question of what weapons they might choose ... Leyden jars and Wimshurst machines at ten paces ? |
|
| |
//so, to answer why Cascade Dam isn't more prominent in the history books ...// |
|
| |
Not prominent is an understatement.
I spoke with members of our tourism committee this morning and they pointed me in a few directions to find the info I'm looking for but they say they've been petitioning the province for historical status for Cascade City and Tesla's involvement with the power station since before 97 when they could still have salvaged the structure.
I am told that the whole region was actively suppressed and that electrical power was denied the people here while fights over rights to distribute electricity raged between companies. |
|
| |
Some serious fuckery was afoot and I'm going to get to the bottom of it. |
|
| |
I think it may have had to do with the length of transmission vs losses. That's why Edison was actively electrocuting elephants and large horses to persuade the public about the dangers of alternating current. If our little dam and Tesla-built power-plant turned the tide and was the determining factor in that little spat... then it deserves its place in the history books. |
|
| |
I tire of rich fat old men rewriting history to suit themselves.
Unless accountable they are pathetic and will be seen as such. |
|
| |
//I am told that the whole region was actively suppressed// |
|
| |
I'm curious about that; would you be able to divulge a source,
and/or give more detail? |
|
| |
this is not surprising to me, that history has been
suppressed and or changed and or omitted! I have
watched several documentaries( so they call them
documentaries but some still are not true) about
history being suppressed. more stuff has been
suppressed than you could believe. it all adds up
to fake news and what the big *they* Want you to
think or what they don’t want you to know. |
|
| |
this is not surprising to me, that history has been
suppressed and or changed and or omitted! I have
watched several documentaries( so they call them
documentaries but some still are not true) about
history being suppressed. more stuff has been
suppressed than you could believe. it all adds up
to fake news and what the big *they* Want you to
think or what they don’t want you to know. |
|
| |
//history has been suppressed and or changed and or omitted//
Be very careful of 'Hanlon's
Razor' (see link) when making statements like that: "Never attribute to malice that which can be
adequately explained by stupidity".
So, your statement "history has been suppressed" suggests
some active suppressing of history and some cunning, planned, intent to change the way history is
recorded. It is far more likely that a biased version of some events or facts was written by some
incompetent person. This perhaps gained some popularity because it served someone's interests. By
chance, other, more complete descriptions of the same facts didn't get the same traction and were
gradually forgotten over time. That seems to me to be a much more credible sequence of events to a
massive conspiracy succeeding in suppressing the truth. |
|
| |
//Be very careful of 'Hanlon's Razor' (see link) when making statements like that: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".// |
|
| |
Will do.
My gut says otherwise though. |
|
| |
\\I'm curious about that; would you be able to divulge a source, and/or give more detail?\\ |
|
| |
I'm working on it. So far my sources are a woman named Grace who used to head up the tourism committee. She has since retired but keeps her hand in things and has lived here her entire life. Much of what she says is from stories she was told as a girl.
Another source is the man who purchased the property where the turbines once sat. He is collecting old memorabilia and putting together a small museum of sorts on the site. |
|
| |
It's common knowledge here that tesla built the power plant but almost impossible to find info on-line. |
|
| |
I've been assured that the information exists in books and I will track it down.
The committee was in the process of setting up an historic lounge in the welcome centre where the books can be perused but then covid hit and that has been put on the back burner for a bit. |
|
| |
I've been wading through copies of newspaper from that day and the the Boundary archives but no luck so far on that front.
I plan to contact the man who made the site since he may not have the same reservations about showing me any books he has on the subject as the committee does. |
|
| |
It could take a while as I am chasing this stuff in my almost non-existent spare time. |
|
| |
My gut says otherwise also. I posted a link which
has nothing to do with the subject of the dams but
with the subject of suppressing history. I would
think it was a bit naïve to think no governments
have Ever tried changing or suppressing history or
information about the history. |
|
| |
//It's common knowledge here that tesla built the power plant// - this
might be true, and this fact has been suppressed or forgotten or
someone with a louder voice wrote the history books - or it might
not be true, and might just be a local ‘urban myth’ based on
misremembered stories from someone. I’m not sure you have
evidence either way at the moment |
|
| |
\\I’m not sure you have evidence either way at the moment\\ |
|
| |
The folks trying to push through the Cascade Heritage Project seem to have found evidence. I will try to contact someone from their Seabreeze company and see if I can find out where they got their info from. |
|
| |
//Newspapers may be a more reliable source than an OAP's stories // |
|
| |
I'm not so sure. I found exactly five mentions of the word "generator" in the Cascade Archive none of them even mention alternating current or anything about the plants construction, which I find very strange. Westinghouse put a half a mill just into the construction of the dam. The power plants completion should have been the news of the decade even if Tesla didn't build it... and nothing. |
|
| |
If I'm right and this project has been historically scrubbed then OAP might hold the only threads to stitch this thing together from the scraps. |
|
| |
I posted a link to Wikipedia about Cascade City.
There is a small blurb about about the
hydroelectric plant and an actual picture of it. I’m
not sure this is what you were looking for, of
course there is no mention of Tesla here. |
|
| |
//Much of what she says is from stories she was told as a girl// |
|
| |
I would urge you to write some of this stuff down (and/or make
audio recordings), with her permission. Others can then decide
for themselves whether they find it credible, in comparison with
other available sources - but at least it will be recorded. This is
the basic work of historiography, and will place you in an
honourable* tradition going back to Thucydides. |
|
| |
Hi [xan]! Yeah that's about the extent of the information to be found. |
|
| |
//Just about any hydropower plant built after 1895 would rely on many Tesla inventions. That doesn't mean he was on site directing construction or even off site as a consultant.// |
|
| |
Good point.
Should be a pretty simple thing to find out don't you think? Well it ain't and I figure to learn why. |
|
| |
//I would urge you to write some of this stuff down (and/or make audio recordings), with her permission.// |
|
| |
I will ask her if she would be willing to be interviewed on the subject. I will need to learn quite a bit more before I would be close to the best choice of interviewer.
Also... (paranoid bastard that I am and just because the possibility exists), when I cast my mind into someone vindictive enough and wealthy enough to eradicate an entire area's history out of spite for a rivals accomplishments... |
|
| |
In my mind I hear the words "Wiped from the map!" and "Brick by fucking brick so help me." |
|
| |
... and then I envision myself creating a trust-fund to ensure that caretakers are paid to keep the wrenches I've placed remain firmly in the works even after I am gone. |
|
| |
I would be more interested to see if these petitions for historical status dating to before the structural collapse are genuine. |
|
| |
Skeptical enough? Too much? I'm new to this. |
|
| |
I envision myself as, let's say, a third-generation employee
of the law firm managing the trust fund, and asking myself
whether the trust fund is really paying me enough to go
and commit criminal offences in order to honour the wishes
of the the fund's long-dead founder. After all, if someone
(who?) threatened to sue me for not erasing the collective
memory thoroughly enough, I would have an excellent
defense in being able to claim that criminal law trumped
contract law. |
|
| |
Therefore, rather than embark on a course of action which
even *might* involve me in criminal conduct, I would
probably just keep taking the fund's payments in exchange
for doing essentially nothing. |
|
| |
After all, have you ever met a lawyer who was *not* risk
averse? |
|
| |
//After all, have you ever met a lawyer who was *not* risk averse?// |
|
| |
Laws were different in the North American 1890's than now and the establishments of many firms are rooted in contracts taken then.
...but not a lawyer, no.
I envision hiring a local family or bloodline indirectly payed unknowingly by a firm with plausible deniability until a third party breach of contract could be established... |
|
| |
...myself?, I would ensure a substantial pay-out should any such third party investment establish proof of breach-of-contract to deter shenanigans after my passing. |
|
| |
...and then there's how far family will go to keep the reputations of thier ancestors from being tarnished to take into consideration. |
|
| |
Like I said; I'm a skeptical bastard.
Am I skeptical enough to figure this one out though? |
|
| |
The waters having been premeditatively muddied is already established as far as I am concerned.
I guess we're going to find out who still cares enough after a century and a quarter to stop me from finding out. |
|
| |
//how far family will go to keep the reputations of thier
ancestors// |
|
| |
Unless they're a political dynasty, not very far. Most people who
had an old bastard for a grandfather are quite glad the old
bastard is dead, and would not go out of their way to protect his
reputation. |
|
| |
The political exception is because defamation of grandad might
lose you votes. If, on the other hand, all you inherited was
money, then you get to keep the money in any case, so self-
interest would lead you to develop a sense of humour about
grandad's reputation. |
|
| |
// Unless they're a political dynasty // |
|
| |
Interestingly, however, if you're royalty, it appears that having a line of ancestors well known for being complete and utter vicious bastards is a remarkably good survival strategy; you don't get challenged as much. |
|
| |
Then again, you may be very likely to get murdered by your family (so best to murder most of them first, and keep the rest cowering in abject fear). |
|
| |
//a complete lack of evidence could be just what you need to prove your conspiracy theory. // |
|
| |
Ah, but that might be exactly what *They* want you to believe ... |
|
| |
Exhibit A here would be the script of Richard III. It had to make
Richard thoroughly villainous and the future Henry VII thoroughly
innocent and heroic *because* Henry VII was the grandfather of
Shakespeare's sovereign lady Queen Elizabeth I. |
|
| |
To the best of my knowledge and belief, yes. I was told it while
still in high school, so I may have remembered it wrong and/or
scholarship on the subject may have advanced since then but,
subject to those caveats, yes, struth. |
|
| |
I think it's covered by the "politics" exception I mentioned earlier. |
|
| |
// Exhibit A here would be the script of Richard III. // |
|
| |
An archetypal example of history being (re-)written by the winning side ... |
|
| |
May it please the Court, in refutation we offer - |
|
| |
Exhibit E: Just about every Chinese Imperial dynasty.
|
|
| |
Is your legal team headed up by Rudy Giuliani? To make a case,
you would need to show not only that these dynasties used
illegitimate means to establish and maintain themselves but
also that they boasted about this illegitimacy. |
|
| |
Do power plant construction plans have to be lodged with a regulatory body of the time? Do properties have to be bought up? Influx of man power. There is probably side effects of the power plant that may still have historical traces. |
|
| |
// Do power plant construction plans have to be lodged with a regulatory body of the time? // |
|
| |
Unlikely, other than for the most basic civil engineering aspects. Like most such innovations, there would be no relevant regulations or legislation to apply. |
|
| |
Similarly, the first nuclear reactors built were completely outside the scope of existing regulation; indeed it was necessary to build and operate a few before it was possible to understand what regulation might actually be necessary. |
|
| |
Then again, it was a secret high-priority military programme, so the "rules" could be and were entirely ignored. |
|
| |
// show not only that these dynasties used illegitimate means to establish and maintain themselves but also that they boasted about this illegitimacy. // |
|
| |
Ptolemy was one of Alexander the Great's generals, who conquered Egypt by military force; his family were a Hellenic clique, who spent a couple of centuries lording it over the natives. |
|
| |
Osman I was a Turkish tribal leader who expanded his territory by conquering Byzantine possessions, and his family carried on the tradition. The dynasty was notorious for assassinations, coups, murders of siblings and general nastiness. This was Standard Operating Procedure. |
|
| |
The Angevins ? Decades of internecine feuding and civil war, justified by the "God Tod Me To Do It" get-out clause. |
|
| |
And as for the Mings, Chings, Qings, Tangs, Tungs, Pings, Pongs, Dings, Dongs and Gongs ... where do you start ? The blood was everywhere ... |
|
| |
//I didn't finish high school// |
|
| |
Nice to hear somebody else has a similar resume'
to mine. I went to work instead of going to school
as a
teenager. Had a little business that calculated
building envelope heating and cooling loads and
specified insulation, glazing, HVAC specs etc.
Architects would come to me with these beautiful
glass palaces and this skinny long haired kid would
tell
them the state would allow them to have a
porthole as long as it consisted of triple grazing.
Used an old coal fired computer that had one of
those Jacob's ladders you've seen in Frankenstein
movie labs. (not really) Spent a lot of time at the
library though. |
|
| |
Those are places that people used to go to read
books for free. |
|
| |
Books are these things that people used to use to
communicate ideas before iPhones. |
|
| |
People are these creatures similar to us we used to
actually communicate with face to face. |
|
| |
Heh, my first official job was washing dishes and shovelling snow for a Chinese restaurant that my mother was a waitress at when I was twelve. True story.
Kids nowadays... uphill both ways I tells ya. |
|
| |
If it wasn't for covid I would have read our library dry by now. As it is it is now open to five visitors at a time so I'll see what they have but the fellow there says that city hall's records and the Boundary Museum archives are where I will find my answers. Unfortunately both of those are closed indefinitely as a covid restriction. |
|
| |
<mutters curse words under breath> |
|
| |
//... where do you start ? The blood was everywhere ...// |
|
| |
Just get the mop. It's in the usual place. Then knock it off with
the apoplanesis. |
|
| |
<looks up meaning of and adds apoplanesis to lexicon> |
|
| |
Whatever bit of info I've managed to scrounge today if anyone cares to see it. [link] |
|
| |
Cascade was just the plant which put Direct Current out of business by sending power all the way to Greenwood. |
|
| |
Not the first AC power plant, but the one that beat Edison's DC monopoly plans. |
|
| |
Is that the same Willamette, where the famous
Willamette meteorite is housed? |
|
| |
xenzag, Craigside was generating hydroelectric power
earlier, but it was probably DC.
I looked it up on teh web, and found it used Siemens
dynamo: |
|
| |
"Then in 1870 Armstrong installed a German-built Siemens
dynamo, in what was probably the world's
first hydroelectric power station." |
|
| |
So if you look up dynamo, on Wikipedia for example, you
will find out:
"The original "dynamo principle" of Werner von Siemens
referred only to the direct current generators
which use exclusively the self-excitation (self-induction)
principle to generate DC power." |
|
| |
I'm not spending more time on this, but it seems like the
most sensible inference is that it ran on DC.
There's nothing wrong with that of course, it's just that it
doesn't fit 2fries' somewhat arbitrary spec. |
|
| |
There was an episode of Dr Who involving Tesla's
powerplant a year or two ago, so it doesn't seem
all that obscured to me. |
|
| |
That fact that no-one knows what the thing that has been covered up is, proves beyond all doubt (reasonable or unreasonable) that there has indeed been a cover-up, and that the cover-up has been very successful. |
|
| |
//the most sensible inference is that it ran on DC. There's nothing wrong with that of course, it's just that it doesn't fit 2fries' somewhat arbitrary spec.// |
|
| |
Not the first ever power plant... the first AC power plant with long enough transmission lines to kill DC hydro plants once and for all. |
|
| |
//There isn't anything obscure about Nikola Tesla's involvement / inventions pertaining to AC. But 2fries sure seems convinced there's been a cover-up about ... something?// |
|
| |
//that there has indeed been a cover-up, and that the cover-up has been very successful.// |
|
| |
The cover up is that Edison decimated the entire boundary region by purchasing the AC power plant that Tesla built, which killed his dream of a DC monopoly, and destroyed several towns by denying electric power to the entire area for decades. The region has never recovered.
Then he had all evidence of this removed from the history books along with Tesla ever having done anything on the west end of Canada. |
|
| |
It's pretty straight forward guys. |
|
| |
Well... it's not a desperately successful coverup then, because
nowadays everyone who cares even the slightest can easily
find out what happened. |
|
| |
Unless this entire posting is part of the coverup, by providing a false narrative to distract from what -really- happened? Oops I wasn't meant to say that. |
|
| |
//nowadays everyone who cares even the slightest can easily find out what happened.// |
|
| |
Try to find evidence other than what I've shown you that Tesla ever did anything in western Canada. |
|
| |
//Unless this entire posting is part of the coverup// |
|
| |
//How many AC power plants did Edison buy and destroy?// |
|
| |
//how large an area was deprived of electricty - and for how long? // |
|
| |
The region called Boundary Country BC. Don't know for how many years. |
|
| |
//He must have missed the ones at Niagara and Willamette (and across the US) that were already providing AC to nearby cities in that time frame. What was the business & strategic importance of those plants in western Canada?// |
|
| |
Geez. Look, it wasn't the first AC hydro plant.
It was the first AC plant that could transport power far enough to kill DC plants for good while Edison was protesting AC plants by publicly electrocuting large critters. That's all. |
|
| |
The cover up is Edison removing evidence of getting his
ass kicked by that... wait... wait, I can hear him now... |
|
| |
..."That upstart Serbian son of a bitch! I'll tear it down brick by fucking brick! See if I don't." |
|
| |
I did kind of imply that with my question didn't I? |
|
| |
The Cascade site played an important role in the development of the electric power industry in the world. It was one of the very first locations where 3-phase 60-cycle alternating current generators were pioneered, including the longest and highest-voltage transmission lines in use up to that time. The Cascade project settled a rivalry between Thomas Edison, who promoted the use of direct current, and Nikola Tesla of Westinghouse who promoted the new technology of alternating current. The plant was purchased by West Kootenay Power and Light in 1907 and operated until 1919 when the power it generated was replaced by power from their Kootenay River Dams. |
|
| |
Edison just became General Electric by crawling into bed with others. |
|
| |
Look, I'm not a researcher, I just moved to a very small town and the old folks here talk about how Tesla was here and oversaw construction of parts of the plants construction.
Then I meet the new owner of the site which once was the power plant and he's got more evidence that Tesla was here provided by the Cascade Heritage Project wanting to rebuild the plant.
Edison built upriver and downriver, forced the sale of this place and fragged the region. |
|
| |
Make of it what you will.
Good luck finding evidence that Tesla ever set foot on the west coast of Canada. |
|
| |
But which is more likely, that (a) a network of
individuals and organisations got together and
conspired, for reasons which remain unclear,
to continually suppress over a long period any
mention in journals, newspapers, biographies etc.
of Tesla spending a significant amount of time on
the west coast of Canada, and that no one
involved ever revealed, deliberately or accidentally, any
part of this complex
conspiracy *or* even any evidence that such a conspiracy
existed, or (b) over the last 100 years some kind
of local ‘urban legend’ has built up and become
embellished over the years about a fairly ordinary
Canadian power plant? |
|
| |
Or (c) the local stories are correct but at the time no-one else was particularly interested because it was just a boring business arrangement and so very few records were kept? |
|
| |
Or maybe it's all a case of mistaken identity and the
person in Canada was Tesla's twin brother, Brian Tesla |
|
| |
Colorado ... Canada ... the plot thickens. Easy mistake to make to "accidentally" swap those two. |
|
| |
//But which is more likely, (a) or (b)?// |
|
| |
Never tell me the odds. As I've stated in the past; Probability and I have issues so I don't really roll with numbers.
What I do know is that this power plant was sold under the premise of expanding coverage when in reality the exact opposite happened. |
|
| |
//Or (c) the local stories are correct but at the time no-one else was particularly interested because it was just a boring business arrangement and so very few records were kept?// |
|
| |
That's my thoughts. Money talked back then and all evidence was just on paper. Easy to rewrite. |
|
| |
//the conspirators had to do more than destroy evidence of Tesla being in Canada. They also had to fabricate evidence that Tesla was busy elsewhere - New York, mostly, but Colorado for a while in 1899.// |
|
| |
Yep. They wanted him gone, and how... |
|
| |
//Or maybe it's all a case of mistaken identity and the person in Canada was Tesla's twin brother, Brian Tesla// |
|
| |
That's just what the messiah would say... |
|
| |
//Colorado ... Canada ... the plot thickens. Easy mistake to make to "accidentally" swap those two// |
|
| |
The Great White South just has a whole different ring to it. Wrong somehow. Can't quite put my finger on why... |
|
| |
//In 1899 or so, explain THAT!// |
|
| |
Red leader, stay on target... stay on target. |
|
| |