h a l f b a k e r yIs it soup yet?
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
I can't think of an idea off the top of my head to legitimize this posting so I'm just throwing it out there.
You guys know more than I do. I didn't finish high school, so it's kind of a given. Let me ask you something.
Are any of you able to find the location of the very first alternating current
hydro electric power plant on Earth?
Does that not sound like something easily searchable?
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
While you look I'll tell you about the place.
It's just down the road from here.
It was called the Cascade Project based on the name of the falls and nearby Cascade City, (no longer exists, golf course now). The cascade project settled the rivalry between Nikola Tesla and Edison over Direct or Alternating current use.
It has been completely dismantled and so has it's history.
Try to find the Cascade Power and Light Company on wiki.
Try to find Cascade Dam.
Try to find any link of Tesla to this place.
G'head.
Try.
I'll wait...
https://en.m.wikipe...ki/Hydroelectricity
[xenzag, Jan 12 2021]
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
[pocmloc, Jan 12 2021]
Cascade Dam, Cascade Canyon, Kettle River
http://www.virtualm....php?action=cascade
So, sounds like they're planning to rebuild this? [jutta, Jan 12 2021]
AC-Power History
https://edisontechc...C-PowerHistory.html
[kdf, Jan 12 2021]
Hanlon's razor
https://en.wikipedi...ki/Hanlon%27s_razor
[hippo, Jan 13 2021]
I don’t know if it’s only Americans who surpress history...
https://www.america...american-democracy/
[xandram, Jan 13 2021]
Probably not this one.
https://majorprojec...-Power-Project/3710
[whatrock, Jan 13 2021]
Just a small blurb about the damn being built in 1897
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Cascade_City
also a picture of The power plant [xandram, Jan 13 2021]
found this video. There are tidbits of info about the power station And Tesla. Also some info in the comments.
https://youtu.be/bo8DlYHSb54
[xandram, Jan 14 2021]
"The first task of West Kootenay Power in 1897 was to deliver power to the mines and town of Rossland. They hired the Edison Electric Company to oversee the construction of Bonnington Falls 4000 horsepower hydroelectric power station and erect a 20,000-volt transmission line. ""This was done through erecting a 60,000-volt line and acquiring the small Cascade Power and Light Company plant on the Kettle River."
https://www.insulators.info/articles/wkp/
Tesla did shit on the west end of Canada. Recognize already. Edison was unsrcupulous, Fragging an entire region because he had a stick up his ass. Fuck'n wanker if you ask me. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jan 17 2021]
[link]
|
| |
Sorry [2fries} don't know. People do like to halt what they can't control and cascades in various forms can run uncontrolled. |
|
| |
"In 1878, the world's first hydroelectric power
scheme was developed at Cragside in
Northumberland, England by William Armstrong. It
was used to power a single ... "
Simple search results |
|
| |
//Try to find the Cascade Power and Light Company on wiki// |
|
| |
If the page doesn't exist, why not just create it? |
|
| |
//Try to find any link of Tesla to this place// |
|
| |
These things, both virtual (info in books and online) and real-world (signposts, memorials) don't just come into being spontaneously; individual humans have to do work to create them. |
|
| |
Its a lot of effort and so most Humans don't bother. |
|
| |
Sometimes a Human is bothered enough to take action... like you have done here. |
|
| |
But there are layers of psychology and stuff in how its done. This post doesn't seem to me like the kind of thing that will cascade through the generations creating a "scene", whereas organising an annual guided tour with invited guest speakers might actually get somewhere.... but what do I know. |
|
| |
Never heard of it. What year was it established
and when was it taken out of service? |
|
| |
Starting from articles on the Wardenclyffe Tower project might throw up references. |
|
| |
This question reminds me of certain books which are, in my
view, quite important, but whose online footprint is tiny. |
|
| |
Sorry, I don't have any leads about the power plant. |
|
| |
"The cascade project settled the rivalry between Nikola
Tesla and Edison over Direct or Alternating current use"
—2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jan 12 2021 |
|
| |
If that's the case, it may not have been the "first"
hydropower plant to produce AC. Though Tesla gets due
credit for the design of AC generators in use today, his were
not the first. From various sources online, I find this early
history of AC hydropower: |
|
| |
Ames Hydroelectric Generating Plant, Ophir Colorado, 1890 |
|
| |
Willamette Falls Electric Company, Oregon, 1889 |
|
| |
Thorenberg near Lucerne, Switzerland, 1886 |
|
| |
And as xenzag points out, hydroelectric plants existed
before that (even though they didn't produce AC). |
|
| |
So... please tell me more about the Cascade Project,
location, timelines and so forth. As so many hydropower
plants past and present include the word "Cascade" in their
name, it's tricky to filter search results. |
|
| |
Yes I did specify the first 'AC' power plant in the world.
[Jutta] has provided a link to Cascade Dam, but even 'it's' official historical record has no mention of Tesla or it's origin as the first AC generation station, nor does it show on any wiki page. |
|
| |
I would like to create the Wiki page and update other pages with the info but it is extremely hard to find. |
|
| |
There is mention in the information package for the Cascade Heritage Project, (which was to recreate the dam and power plant but was squashed by local interests), and a single shout-out on the Calgary Tesla Society page. |
|
| |
I just can't help but wonder if Edison was a sore enough loser to ensure that tracks were erased. |
|
| |
It just seems like a pretty significant historical event to be so hard to find evidence of. |
|
| |
Thank you for the link! Cascade Dam may have been a first for
the region, but I don't see how it settled the Current War. That was pretty much over by the time the Niagara came online in
1895 - a couple years before construction even started on the
Cascade Dam. |
|
| |
hmmm
This is from the Cascade Heritage Power Project page. |
|
| |
"The Cascade site played an important role in the development of the electric power industry in the world. It was one of the very first locations where 3-phase 60-cycle alternating current generators were pioneered, including the longest and highest-voltage transmission lines in use up to that time. The Cascade project settled a rivalry between Thomas Edison, who promoted the use of direct current, and Nikola Tesla of Westinghouse who promoted the new technology of alternating current. The plant was purchased by West Kootenay Power and Light in 1907 and operated until 1919 when the power it generated was replaced by power from their Kootenay River Dams." |
|
| |
I guess we have dueling historians. Cascade may have been
"one of the first" but "settling the rivalry" would be a
judgement call ... and some would say it was settled several
years earlier: |
|
| |
1893 - Redlands Power House - the first commercial
installation of 3 phase AC power, 40 Hz. |
|
| |
1895 - Folsom Power House - The first installation of modern
AC power in the USA: 3 Phase AC at 60 Hz. |
|
| |
1895 - Westinghouse builds the power system for the Adams
Power Station at Niagara Falls. Benjamin Garver Lamme is
the principal engineer of the operation. General Electric
builds the 25 mile power transmission system from the
Niagara power house to Buffalo, NY which is made
operational in 1896. |
|
| |
Edit... so, to answer why Cascade Dam isn't more prominent
in the history books ... well, it's like trying to commemorate
the fourth man to walk on the moon. Nobody remembers his
name, right? And that didn't "settle" the US/USSR rivalry, did
it? |
|
| |
Alan Bean, and no, because the USSR "retired hurt" before the end of the bout. |
|
| |
(and we saw what you did there - put it back. We have it cached, you know). |
|
| |
That raises the intriguing question of what weapons they might choose ... Leyden jars and Wimshurst machines at ten paces ? |
|
| |
I put it back just for you, 8th. I'm still not happy with the
wording but I do so hate to see you pout. |
|
| |
//so, to answer why Cascade Dam isn't more prominent in the history books ...// |
|
| |
Not prominent is an understatement.
I spoke with members of our tourism committee this morning and they pointed me in a few directions to find the info I'm looking for but they say they've been petitioning the province for historical status for Cascade City and Tesla's involvement with the power station since before 97 when they could still have salvaged the structure.
I am told that the whole region was actively suppressed and that electrical power was denied the people here while fights over rights to distribute electricity raged between companies. |
|
| |
Some serious fuckery was afoot and I'm going to get to the bottom of it. |
|
| |
"fights over rights to distribute electricity raged between
companies."
—2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jan 12 2021 |
|
| |
I guess that makes sense. Westinghouse and General Electric
didn't settle most of their patent disputes until 1896 - that's
when I'd say the current war was over- but clearance to go
forward on large scale projects anywhere might have been held
up for some time after that ... |
|
| |
I think it may have had to do with the length of transmission vs losses. That's why Edison was actively electrocuting elephants and large horses to persuade the public about the dangers of alternating current. If our little dam and Tesla-built power-plant turned the tide and was the determining factor in that little spat... then it deserves its place in the history books. |
|
| |
I tire of rich fat old men rewriting history to suit themselves.
Unless accountable they are pathetic and will be seen as such. |
|
| |
//I am told that the whole region was actively suppressed// |
|
| |
I'm curious about that; would you be able to divulge a source,
and/or give more detail? |
|
| |
this is not surprising to me, that history has been
suppressed and or changed and or omitted! I have
watched several documentaries( so they call them
documentaries but some still are not true) about
history being suppressed. more stuff has been
suppressed than you could believe. it all adds up
to fake news and what the big *they* Want you to
think or what they don’t want you to know. |
|
| |
this is not surprising to me, that history has been
suppressed and or changed and or omitted! I have
watched several documentaries( so they call them
documentaries but some still are not true) about
history being suppressed. more stuff has been
suppressed than you could believe. it all adds up
to fake news and what the big *they* Want you to
think or what they don’t want you to know. |
|
| |
//history has been suppressed and or changed and or omitted//
Be very careful of 'Hanlon's
Razor' (see link) when making statements like that: "Never attribute to malice that which can be
adequately explained by stupidity".
So, your statement "history has been suppressed" suggests
some active suppressing of history and some cunning, planned, intent to change the way history is
recorded. It is far more likely that a biased version of some events or facts was written by some
incompetent person. This perhaps gained some popularity because it served someone's interests. By
chance, other, more complete descriptions of the same facts didn't get the same traction and were
gradually forgotten over time. That seems to me to be a much more credible sequence of events to a
massive conspiracy succeeding in suppressing the truth. |
|
| |
//Be very careful of 'Hanlon's Razor' (see link) when making statements like that: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".// |
|
| |
Will do.
My gut says otherwise though. |
|
| |
\\I'm curious about that; would you be able to divulge a source, and/or give more detail?\\ |
|
| |
I'm working on it. So far my sources are a woman named Grace who used to head up the tourism committee. She has since retired but keeps her hand in things and has lived here her entire life. Much of what she says is from stories she was told as a girl.
Another source is the man who purchased the property where the turbines once sat. He is collecting old memorabilia and putting together a small museum of sorts on the site. |
|
| |
It's common knowledge here that tesla built the power plant but almost impossible to find info on-line. |
|
| |
I've been assured that the information exists in books and I will track it down.
The committee was in the process of setting up an historic lounge in the welcome centre where the books can be perused but then covid hit and that has been put on the back burner for a bit. |
|
| |
I've been wading through copies of newspaper from that day and the the Boundary archives but no luck so far on that front.
I plan to contact the man who made the site since he may not have the same reservations about showing me any books he has on the subject as the committee does. |
|
| |
It could take a while as I am chasing this stuff in my almost non-existent spare time. |
|
| |
My gut says otherwise also. I posted a link which
has nothing to do with the subject of the dams but
with the subject of suppressing history. I would
think it was a bit naïve to think no governments
have Ever tried changing or suppressing history or
information about the history. |
|
| |
"...my sources are a woman named Grace (and) ... newspapers
from that time ..."
—2 fries shy of a happy meal, Jan 13
2021 |
|
| |
Good call. Newspapers may be a more reliable
source than an OAP's stories
from when she was a little girl. |
|
| |
//It's common knowledge here that tesla built the power plant// - this
might be true, and this fact has been suppressed or forgotten or
someone with a louder voice wrote the history books - or it might
not be true, and might just be a local ‘urban myth’ based on
misremembered stories from someone. I’m not sure you have
evidence either way at the moment |
|
| |
\\I’m not sure you have evidence either way at the moment\\ |
|
| |
The folks trying to push through the Cascade Heritage Project seem to have found evidence. I will try to contact someone from their Seabreeze company and see if I can find out where they got their info from. |
|
| |
//Newspapers may be a more reliable source than an OAP's stories // |
|
| |
I'm not so sure. I found exactly five mentions of the word "generator" in the Cascade Archive none of them even mention alternating current or anything about the plants construction, which I find very strange. Westinghouse put a half a mill just into the construction of the dam. The power plants completion should have been the news of the decade even if Tesla didn't build it... and nothing. |
|
| |
If I'm right and this project has been historically scrubbed then OAP might hold the only threads to stitch this thing together from the scraps. |
|
| |
I posted a link to Wikipedia about Cascade City.
There is a small blurb about about the
hydroelectric plant and an actual picture of it. I’m
not sure this is what you were looking for, of
course there is no mention of Tesla here. |
|
| |
Still wondering about the Tesla connection there, if there is
any and how meaningful it might be. |
|
| |
Just about any hydropower plant built after 1895 would rely
on many Tesla inventions. That doesn't mean he was on site
directing construction or even off site as a consultant.
Should I put a plaque on
my office door proclaiming "Nikola Tesla invented a lot of
the stuff in this room"? And if I don't, am I
suppressing history? |
|
| |
Now, if you can find a newspaper article about him visiting
Cascade City any time from 1897 onward- that would be
something. Maybe the golf course could put up a monument
saying "Nikola Tesla Slept Here." |
|
| |
Especially if they could put it on a spot when one of the
brothels used to be. |
|
| |
//Much of what she says is from stories she was told as a girl// |
|
| |
I would urge you to write some of this stuff down (and/or make
audio recordings), with her permission. Others can then decide
for themselves whether they find it credible, in comparison with
other available sources - but at least it will be recorded. This is
the basic work of historiography, and will place you in an
honourable* tradition going back to Thucydides. |
|
| |
Hi [xan]! Yeah that's about the extent of the information to be found. |
|
| |
//Just about any hydropower plant built after 1895 would rely on many Tesla inventions. That doesn't mean he was on site directing construction or even off site as a consultant.// |
|
| |
Good point.
Should be a pretty simple thing to find out don't you think? Well it ain't and I figure to learn why. |
|
| |
//I would urge you to write some of this stuff down (and/or make audio recordings), with her permission.// |
|
| |
I will ask her if she would be willing to be interviewed on the subject. I will need to learn quite a bit more before I would be close to the best choice of interviewer.
Also... (paranoid bastard that I am and just because the possibility exists), when I cast my mind into someone vindictive enough and wealthy enough to eradicate an entire area's history out of spite for a rivals accomplishments... |
|
| |
In my mind I hear the words "Wiped from the map!" and "Brick by fucking brick so help me." |
|
| |
... and then I envision myself creating a trust-fund to ensure that caretakers are paid to keep the wrenches I've placed remain firmly in the works even after I am gone. |
|
| |
I would be more interested to see if these petitions for historical status dating to before the structural collapse are genuine. |
|
| |
Skeptical enough? Too much? I'm new to this. |
|
| |
I envision myself as, let's say, a third-generation employee
of the law firm managing the trust fund, and asking myself
whether the trust fund is really paying me enough to go
and commit criminal offences in order to honour the wishes
of the the fund's long-dead founder. After all, if someone
(who?) threatened to sue me for not erasing the collective
memory thoroughly enough, I would have an excellent
defense in being able to claim that criminal law trumped
contract law. |
|
| |
Therefore, rather than embark on a course of action which
even *might* involve me in criminal conduct, I would
probably just keep taking the fund's payments in exchange
for doing essentially nothing. |
|
| |
After all, have you ever met a lawyer who was *not* risk
averse? |
|
| |
//After all, have you ever met a lawyer who was *not* risk averse?// |
|
| |
Laws were different in the North American 1890's than now and the establishments of many firms are rooted in contracts taken then.
...but not a lawyer, no.
I envision hiring a local family or bloodline indirectly payed unknowingly by a firm with plausible deniability until a third party breach of contract could be established... |
|
| |
...myself?, I would ensure a substantial pay-out should any such third party investment establish proof of breach-of-contract to deter shenanigans after my passing. |
|
| |
...and then there's how far family will go to keep the reputations of thier ancestors from being tarnished to take into consideration. |
|
| |
Like I said; I'm a skeptical bastard.
Am I skeptical enough to figure this one out though? |
|
| |
The waters having been premeditatively muddied is already established as far as I am concerned.
I guess we're going to find out who still cares enough after a century and a quarter to stop me from finding out. |
|
| |
//how far family will go to keep the reputations of thier
ancestors// |
|
| |
Unless they're a political dynasty, not very far. Most people who
had an old bastard for a grandfather are quite glad the old
bastard is dead, and would not go out of their way to protect his
reputation. |
|
| |
The political exception is because defamation of grandad might
lose you votes. If, on the other hand, all you inherited was
money, then you get to keep the money in any case, so self-
interest would lead you to develop a sense of humour about
grandad's reputation. |
|
| |
// Unless they're a political dynasty // |
|
| |
Interestingly, however, if you're royalty, it appears that having a line of ancestors well known for being complete and utter vicious bastards is a remarkably good survival strategy; you don't get challenged as much. |
|
| |
Then again, you may be very likely to get murdered by your family (so best to murder most of them first, and keep the rest cowering in abject fear). |
|
| |
(kdf) "Just about any hydropower plant built after
1895
would rely on many Tesla inventions. That doesn't
mean he
was on site directing construction or even off site
as a
consultant."
|
|
| |
(2f) "Good point. Should be a pretty simple thing
to find out don't you think?"
|
|
| |
Not necessarily. Even if he was involved on-site, it
still might
not have made the local news. Off-site, even less
likely. And
if he wasn't involved at all, you wouldn't find
anything. |
|
| |
Of course, a complete lack of evidence could be
just what
you need to prove your conspiracy theory. |
|
| |
//a complete lack of evidence could be just what you need to prove your conspiracy theory. // |
|
| |
Ah, but that might be exactly what *They* want you to believe ... |
|
| |
Exhibit A here would be the script of Richard III. It had to make
Richard thoroughly villainous and the future Henry VII thoroughly
innocent and heroic *because* Henry VII was the grandfather of
Shakespeare's sovereign lady Queen Elizabeth I. |
|
| |
To the best of my knowledge and belief, yes. I was told it while
still in high school, so I may have remembered it wrong and/or
scholarship on the subject may have advanced since then but,
subject to those caveats, yes, struth. |
|
| |
I think it's covered by the "politics" exception I mentioned earlier. |
|
| |
// Exhibit A here would be the script of Richard III. // |
|
| |
An archetypal example of history being (re-)written by the winning side ... |
|
| |
May it please the Court, in refutation we offer - |
|
| |
Exhibit E: Just about every Chinese Imperial dynasty.
|
|
| |
Is your legal team headed up by Rudy Giuliani? To make a case,
you would need to show not only that these dynasties used
illegitimate means to establish and maintain themselves but
also that they boasted about this illegitimacy. |
|
| |
Do power plant construction plans have to be lodged with a regulatory body of the time? Do properties have to be bought up? Influx of man power. There is probably side effects of the power plant that may still have historical traces. |
|
| |
// Do power plant construction plans have to be lodged with a regulatory body of the time? // |
|
| |
Unlikely, other than for the most basic civil engineering aspects. Like most such innovations, there would be no relevant regulations or legislation to apply. |
|
| |
Similarly, the first nuclear reactors built were completely outside the scope of existing regulation; indeed it was necessary to build and operate a few before it was possible to understand what regulation might actually be necessary. |
|
| |
Then again, it was a secret high-priority military programme, so the "rules" could be and were entirely ignored. |
|
| |
// show not only that these dynasties used illegitimate means to establish and maintain themselves but also that they boasted about this illegitimacy. // |
|
| |
Ptolemy was one of Alexander the Great's generals, who conquered Egypt by military force; his family were a Hellenic clique, who spent a couple of centuries lording it over the natives. |
|
| |
Osman I was a Turkish tribal leader who expanded his territory by conquering Byzantine possessions, and his family carried on the tradition. The dynasty was notorious for assassinations, coups, murders of siblings and general nastiness. This was Standard Operating Procedure. |
|
| |
The Angevins ? Decades of internecine feuding and civil war, justified by the "God Tod Me To Do It" get-out clause. |
|
| |
And as for the Mings, Chings, Qings, Tangs, Tungs, Pings, Pongs, Dings, Dongs and Gongs ... where do you start ? The blood was everywhere ... |
|
| |
//I didn't finish high school// |
|
| |
Nice to hear somebody else has a similar resume'
to mine. I went to work instead of going to school
as a
teenager. Had a little business that calculated
building envelope heating and cooling loads and
specified insulation, glazing, HVAC specs etc.
Architects would come to me with these beautiful
glass palaces and this skinny long haired kid would
tell
them the state would allow them to have a
porthole as long as it consisted of triple grazing.
Used an old coal fired computer that had one of
those Jacob's ladders you've seen in Frankenstein
movie labs. (not really) Spent a lot of time at the
library though. |
|
| |
Those are places that people used to go to read
books for free. |
|
| |
Books are these things that people used to use to
communicate ideas before iPhones. |
|
| |
People are these creatures similar to us we used to
actually communicate with face to face. |
|
| |
Heh, my first official job was washing dishes and shovelling snow for a Chinese restaurant that my mother was a waitress at when I was twelve. True story.
Kids nowadays... uphill both ways I tells ya. |
|
| |
If it wasn't for covid I would have read our library dry by now. As it is it is now open to five visitors at a time so I'll see what they have but the fellow there says that city hall's records and the Boundary Museum archives are where I will find my answers. Unfortunately both of those are closed indefinitely as a covid restriction. |
|
| |
<mutters curse words under breath> |
|
| |
//... where do you start ? The blood was everywhere ...// |
|
| |
Just get the mop. It's in the usual place. Then knock it off with
the apoplanesis. |
|
| |
<looks up meaning of and adds apoplanesis to lexicon> |
|
| |
Whatever bit of info I've managed to scrounge today if anyone cares to see it. [link] |
|
| |