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The Intelligent Chicken Project

Welcome our new Poultry Overlords.
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Ravens & Chimps both perform broadly as well as a two year old child in intelligence tests, of course in specific test areas both outperform a two year old & one another but averaged across all tests that seems to be the consensus for roughly where they fall.

Not very surprising with the Chimp which has a brain only a little smaller than a two year olds (around 384g) but the raven does it with a 15g brain.

That's 25.6 Raven brains (by weight) per Chimp brain, they're allegedly doing as well with near enough 4% the brain mass.

When you fly there's very strong evolutionary pressure to cut weight so it's not too surprising that they've found a few ways to achieve better results with less.

I have read articles that suggest some of the tricks birds have found are to do with a greater neuron density .. but how they do it isn't really important to this idea .. only that they do.

What I'd like to know is how well does it scale?

An adult human brain is around 1352g, could a 54g bird brain be as intelligent as a normal human?

So I propose we selectively breed birds for bigger brains just to see.

Ravens aren't particularly well known for their fecundity so they're probably not the best test subjects for this.

Chickens are something we've already selectively bred to reproduce at excessive speed & don't tend to fly away as much making it a lot easier to keep tabs on your experimental subjects.

So chickens it is then.

Essentially this will be The Intelligent Mouse Project.

But with chickens.

Accept that the Intelligent Mouse Project by design only selects for intelligence rather than any particular features or structures because it's specifically interested in seeing how evolution will go about doing it without deliberate direction from us.

While what we're interested in is the scalability of the tricks birds use to get more out of smaller brains (their greater neuron density etc).

So rather than selecting only for intelligence in our experiment we'll also be selecting for physical features such as brain topography (all those little pleats & folds) and a 2% body mass ratio to match the human brains with a target brain weight of 54g.

Skewed, Sep 08 2021

The Intelligent Mouse Project The_20Intelligent_20Mouse_20Project
[Skewed, Sep 08 2021]

Hens Brain Size https://www.science...i/S0032579120302133
[Skewed, Sep 09 2021]

Birds have primate-like numbers of neurons https://www.pnas.org/content/113/26/7255
[Skewed, Sep 09 2021]

A very confused parrot. https://www.youtube...watch?v=9T1vfsHYiKY
[Skewed, Sep 09 2021]

Stupider Chickens stupider_20chickens
[Voice, Sep 09 2021]

How to curcumscribe a cock. https://en.wikipedi...he_Headless_Chicken
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Sep 09 2021]

Flight Muscle Contractility https://www.frontie...hys.2020.01038/full
[Skewed, Sep 10 2021]


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Annotation:







       Just place them on one side of a road and wait on the other side with your clipboard.
xenzag, Sep 08 2021
  

       I think your talking about 'what is intelligence' & 'how do we test for it' [zen]?   

       We don't really care what it is.   

       It's not the subject of this experiment so it doesn't matter.   

       As for how do we test for it we already have that covered.   

       We'll just subject them to the same developmental benchmark tests we do children & breed from those that do best.   

       All we're doing is selectively breeding brighter chickens to see if their greater neuron density will achieve human level intelligence with a smaller brain than ours, it's a very tight project objective.   

       We're just not interested in philosophy & all that other fluff :)
Skewed, Sep 08 2021
  

       //Especially if you're proposing a method for generating it//   

       Very much my point, we're not, chickens already have intelligence, really small amounts but they have it.   

       This isn't an AI project to create intelligence from nothing (which your dissertation seems more suited to, to me) & there's little profit in comparing the two, when it comes to the question I want answered (can birds greater neural density achieve human-like intelligence with smaller brains than ours) none.   

       We're just breeding for more of something they already have.   

       Something already well defined (if not well understood) in human terms.   

       It's in human terms rather than any other that we want it & for the purpose of this experiment we don't need to understand it beyond their ability to succeed at the tasks we set them.   

       So most (or all?) of your anno is superfluous, interesting, but superfluous.
Skewed, Sep 08 2021
  

       What's your selection criteria? Looking at the work on crows/ravens etc. they pass tests that things like chickens don't. What we need is a test that the smarter chickens pass. What do you suggest? It needs to be high-throughput, fast and cheap. Later on things get trickier. As intelligence grows, the tests become longer and more granulated.
bs0u0155, Sep 08 2021
  

       //As intelligence grows, the tests become longer and more granulated//   

       Yep, probably starting with clicker training & similar that they are capable of, those who perform best & learn fastest would be the obvious criteria but we're open to suggestions.   

       When the first one gets a degree from Yale we can stick a fork in it & say we're done.   

       We'll have a chicken dinner to celebrate.
Skewed, Sep 08 2021
  

       Anyone who thinks they are smarter than a chicken is welcome to set up a camera and record themselves laying an egg.
xenzag, Sep 08 2021
  

       //tricky to define//   

       Not tricky at all. We'll be defining it by (comparative to humans) results. As I've been trying to tell you, for our purposes here we simply don't need to define it any further than that.   

       When they can get a basic high school qualification, a score of 100 or better on a normal adult IQ test & hold down an entry level desk job we'll say they're as intelligent as a person.   

       See what I mean by superfluous?   

       //When the first one gets a degree from Yale//   

       //We'll have a chicken dinner to celebrate//   

       How do you want yours?
Skewed, Sep 08 2021
  

       //ruthlessly murdering a percentage of the population//   

       [Slightly worried guilty expression]   

       Umm..   

       Well we thought we might just dump all the rejects on the Isle of Man & let them get on with it themselves.   

       [Bright shiny smile]   

       Just eating them would be unconscionable, of course.   

       [Carefully doesn't look at plate of drumsticks on table]   

       [Pushes plate slowly out of shot, still not looking at it]   

       [Bright shiny smile]   

       //might end up being a tall-order//   

       We'll probably have to knock it all on the head if we ever reach the three year old infant benchmark to be fair.   

       You know what all the bleeding heart types are like, they'll make a fuss if they ever get wind of it at that point.
Skewed, Sep 08 2021
  

       Without defining anything, the process results in the monkey typing exercise and infinite time. By trying to defining 'the fluff', insights to short cuts to training/tests become apparent.
wjt, Sep 09 2021
  

       Might I suggest starting with something other than chickens? We have some, and they frequently astound me with their stupidity. I assume it's because we've bred any intelligence out of them. The "smart" ones escape and get eaten. I wouldn't count on chickens having whatever brain density advantage that most birds have.   

       On the other hand, creating an environment for any of the intelligent birds will be quite challenging, whereas with chickens, if you could create a peck screen interface and partner with a traditional caged egg laying operation, you could roll it out on a massive scale for a relatively low cost.
scad mientist, Sep 09 2021
  

       //For some, consciousness [...] is a symptom of a system trying to model other systems similar to itself //   

       No offense to you, [zen_tom], but that is a terrible, terrible idea, and I'm disturbed to see it still in circulation. Can you provide any links to recent sources for it?
pertinax, Sep 09 2021
  

       //wouldn't count on chickens having whatever brain density advantage that most birds have//   

       They do I'm sure, we should maybe check b4 starting but as it's likely an adaption of birds for flight (to cut weight) it would be surprising if they didn't.   

       They have pretty small brains <link> only 2.4- 3.9g compared to a Ravens 15g brain but we'll bulk that up by selective breeding as part of the project, the ease of bulk breeding should more than make up for the poor starting material & ultimately result in a much shorter project lifespan beginning to end, we can of course select for neuron density as well, they'll have the same 'tools' as other birds in their genome for that so given time we should be able to get it up to Raven levels in their forebrain if it isn't already (I'm guessing it's not).   

       I expect they have better neuron density than mammals (but in a much much smaller teeny tiny brain of course), but I'd guess their neuron density might not be as good as a Ravens.   

       Here <link> ("Birds have..") this study included chicken brains & they make no mention I can see of chickens being surprisingly unusual in not having this adaption that other birds do.   

       From that study: "We found that the bird brains have more neurons than mammalian brains and even primate brains of similar mass" & also, in specific reference to results from "red junglefowl" (aka a chicken), they say "Thus, high neuronal density in the telencephalon appears characteristic of all birds"
Skewed, Sep 09 2021
  

       Thank you for telling me where you heard it, [zen_tom].   

       To understand the origins of the idea, (and hence the reason for my hostility to it), we have to go back to the state of psychology in the mid-twentieth century, when the field was dominated by psychoanalysts.   

       Hang on; I have to go and do some other things now: I may be able to expand on that later.
pertinax, Sep 09 2021
  

       We did try other species.   

       The Kakapo seemed like a good idea because it can't fly & is really quite friendly <link>   

       Success was limited, no eggs you see & there's not a lot of them left anyway, was getting difficult to smuggle them out too.   

       So we dropped the hybridisation efforts & switched to chickens.
Skewed, Sep 09 2021
  

       //I'm not convinced that breeding more "cauliflower" shaped brains is going to provide the benefits we're looking for. //   

       Even if it doesn't it's sure to give us something scientific and culturally interesting.
Voice, Sep 09 2021
  

       We should also try breeding for purely larger brains regardless of intelligence. I'm sure we can get chickens with relatively titanic brains in a relatively short time and learn something from that. Actually I honestly think that would be a worthy study.
Voice, Sep 09 2021
  

       ...and yet living headless chickens might be the way to go.
Meet Mike the headless chicken.
  

       [linkier link]   

       //breeding for purely larger brains regardless of intelligence// //would be a worthy study//   

       Of course, though it's largely built into this one anyway, we'll be measuring for neuron density, brain size (regardless of neuron density) & brain to body weight ratios to select for them in the breeding program as well as testing for intelligence thus providing (with others) the data sets you'd be looking for with a pure brain size study, I'd expect it to prove neuron count (particularly in the forebrain) rather than overall brain size or brain to body weight ratio as the pertinent factor for intelligence & help determine a maximum neuron density.
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       //My dog is one year old, but she out-performs a one-year old baby on most intelligence tests I can think of.//   

       That's because the dog is essentially complete, it's still got far too much juvenile energy but it's more or less an adult. The human is 10-19 years away from that point, the brain is just about getting the hang of moving about and handling the firehose of information that the eyes provide.   

       I wonder if longevity is a necessity in the biological intelligence game? All the intelligent creatures are relatively long lived: Ravens, dolphins, us, chimps, elephants etc. Are there exceptions to this? Is there a mayfly that gets to the intelligence of a cat in a week? Is there a maximum rate at which neurons can grow a functional network?   

       Actually, separate those, is there a maximum neuron growth rate? Yes, growing billions of them takes time, although the largest cells in the world are neurons in things like the sciatic nerves in blue whales that clearly grow at a tremendous rate in absolute terms.   

       Is there a maximum rate at which a functional network can be assembled? This looks like it might be the main problem. It seems to take many months to years to develop the sort of intelligence we're talking about. That process is essentially expose to stimulus>wait for the brain network to respond looks like it's reasonably fixed in terms of speed - at least within a factor of 10 or so.   

       So while chickens might be long-lived enough, and you could breed them to be more intelligent, I expect that they would just have longer and longer juvenile stages.   

       //bird brains have more neurons than mammalian brains and even primate brains of similar mass//   

       There will be a reason. It's not like mammals are just wastefully filling the brain with non-neuron cells. There's tremendous selective pressure on brain volume in humans, we have huge heads that are only just able to fit during birth, then they keep expanding afterwards. Those non-neuron cells are doing stuff, stuff we're still working out, like physical and metabolic support for the prima- donna neurons. As brain size increases, it's probably that the support network increases disproportionately, and unavoidably. I wonder if the 40C body temperature of birds helps in this at all?
bs0u0155, Sep 10 2021
  

       //There will be a reason//   

       Of course there will, & it will be flight .. lighter is easier & that was pretty obviously the driving factor for natural selection of lighter brains in birds the same as it was for their hollow bones, I would be unsurprised to find that there are reasons it won't scale indefinitely, for a start there's going to be a absolute limit for how small you can make a neuron & how tightly you can pack them, there may perhaps be cooling issues with all those neurons sparking away that cause problems in larger brains than any birds have.   

       I'd like the answers to those questions & this project should help get them.
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       //I wonder if longevity is a necessity in the biological intelligence game?//   

       [Makes a note to include the chickens ages in all the collected data sets]   

       We'll let you know when we're done.
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       // there may perhaps be cooling issues with all those neurons sparking away that cause problems in larger brains.//   

       That's been solved. But you're astute to identify that it should be a problem. The brain is water (blood) cooled, and the relative amount of blood vessels has to increase with brain size. Then there's the metabolic tricks: by running on largely glucose>lactate neurons offload the heat generating part of metabolism to the mitochondria in the liver (and glia etc.). By minimizing the amount and utilization of mitochondria, neurons likely minimize the damage associated with high-energy O2 reactions. But, neurodegenerative disorders almost always feature malfunctioning mitochondria, so there're very much needed.   

       I wonder if stepping up temperature might be a way to go, just going from mammalian 37C to bird 40C gets you a ~5% increase in diffusion of most of the important ions & molecules.
bs0u0155, Sep 10 2021
  

       //flight// //the driving factor for natural selection of lighter brains in birds// //as it was for their hollow bones//   

       I'd be unsurprised to find they've developed similar advantages for muscles as well .. another study perhaps, if there isn't already work out there on that.
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       //if there isn't already work out there on that//   

       There is, some at least <link> (Evolution of Flight Muscle Contractility and Energetic Efficiency)
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       //they've developed similar advantages for muscles as well//   

       Not really. Again, there's a lot of selective pressure on muscle in, I assume, all species. They recycle a lot of the same tricks, but there's no getting away from the fundamentals. Muscle contraction requires actin/myosin which requires Ca2+ and ATP to cycle. Those require mitochondria burning fuel in oxygen. You can move things around in time and different parts of the anatomy, but you need what you need. Bats fly, and their muscle is indistinguishable from rat muscle, they don't have most of the bird tricks either, bones are standard.   

       The extremes get interesting. Really fast muscles have to pull some strange tricks. Rattlesnake rattle muscles (~70Hz) & Cicadas (150+Hz) have to swap out most of the actin/myosin force producing stuff and cram in Ca2+ & ATP machinery (SR & mitochondria).   

       Bees are nuts, they flap their wings over 200Hz, which is faster than neurons can operate, meaning they have no control over the frequency, they just turn the wings on & off. The muscles seem dependent on stretch activation, the upper muscles stretch the lower, which contract, stretching the upper etc. which sets up an oscillation of a relatively fixed frequency. There's a whole lot we don't know about how that works.
bs0u0155, Sep 10 2021
  

       //cooling issues// //That's been solved//   

       Solved may not be quite the right word? it's been Identified as a (very) probable issue certainly & I'm sure there are papers that offer theories on what & where the limits it imposes are.   

       But I don't know as there have been any actual practical studies to positively locate (define?) & prove those limits?
Skewed, Sep 10 2021
  

       What I was getting at, was that nature has solved the problem, or worked around it at least.
bs0u0155, Sep 10 2021
  

       Those poultry farms are on a large scale. At least we can eat the genetic losers.   

       Any pâté-like recipes for the excess in chicken brains?
wjt, Sep 15 2021
  

       //Bees are nuts//   

       If nuts are also bees, we could have a new recipe for nougat.
pertinax, Sep 15 2021
  

       But peanuts are not nuts. Therefore, by the operation of logic, bees are not peanuts.
pocmloc, Sep 15 2021
  

       [Pertinax] Can you follow up on our comment about why the idea in [zem_tom]'s annotation is a // terrible, terrible idea //. I'm not saying I agree with the idea, but it sounds like an interesting hypothesis about consciousness, and I don't see right off why that idea could be considered terrible. Based on the brief start of your comment, I wonder if this idea was used as part of an excuse for some inhumane treatment of mental patients?
scad mientist, Sep 15 2021
  

       [scad_mientist], I took that discussion with [zen] to email, because it is off-topic, complex and likely controversial. But, yes, mistreatment of mental patients is part of it, but also only the tip of an iceberg. You can find my email thinly disguised on my profile page, if you don't mind listening to me whinge and rant about it, but I thought best to keep it off this comment thread, and maybe of the HB altogether.
pertinax, Sep 15 2021
  

       I called a man a bird brain once. Strange that he took offense to it given their neuron density.   

       Bees must somehow interject some level of control by queueing up a neuron or 3 that get on the CAN bus and interrupt or slow the process a bit.
RayfordSteele, Sep 16 2021
  

       ^Auxillary muscles might just move the oscillating wing into a strained position that slows up the back and forth allowing nerves to get some messages in.   

       Though, it's the right way around, right?. It's ok for the effector to be superspeed rather than have the controller superspeed and a slow effector missing calls.
wjt, Sep 21 2021
  


 

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