h a l f b a k e r yOh yeah? Well, eureka too.
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We need both an election and referendum now, so surely the smart thing to do is to combine them? Rather than the ballot paper having on it:
- Labour
- Conservative
- Monster Raving Looney
- Liberal Democrats
etc.
it would have a matrix of choices so against each party
you could put your tick in one of the boxes marked:
- Remain
- Leave
- Revert to primitive agrarian economy based on sheep-barter monetary system
'Get ready for Brexit' advertising campaign launches
https://postimg.cc/Q9nkmX9Y
Building up a head of steam now. [Loris, Sep 02 2019]
Ivan Rogers in the Spectator
https://blogs.spect...f-a-no-deal-brexit/
touching on the very point bigsleep made on 2 September 2019 about this only being the start of it [calum, Sep 02 2019]
Yellowhammer pdf
https://drive.googl...nr-A3svyOrlTczJoIZz
[not_morrison_rm, Sep 11 2019]
[link]
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I can't understand why you'd want to have to listen to idiot
politicians in Brussels. Clearly you have your own? |
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On current evidence, the EU ones are better at it. |
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With a number of notable exceptions. |
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Can we not increase the number of axes so that voting is a simple matter of picking a position relative to a timecube? |
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That works until the cube starts rotating. |
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//Can we not increase the number of axes// Hear, hear!!
There's nothing wrong with politicians that an axe can't fix. |
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Can you add an option for: |
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[ ] Let's just continue to watch the UK parliament screw
this up, over and over |
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I rather enjoy a good Kafkaesque tragedy. |
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Like I said, [Ian Tindale]. |
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Do the MRL still put up candidates [hippo]? used to be a touch
of much needed light relief at elections but I've not seen any
for years :( |
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Rarely now - the party's gone into a steady decline since Lord Sutch died |
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Replaced with a more diverse spectrum of nut
jobs: ie Kremlin Corbyn; Dinosaur DUP; Morris
Dancing May; Fruit-cake Farage, and of course
Bonkers Boris. If the Monster's Party ran where I
don't vote, I would vote. |
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[bigsleep] - it's getting closer! |
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- Remain
- Leave
- Revert to primitive agrarian economy based on sheep-barter monetary system
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- Publicly execute all existing national and local politicians by a slow, painful and humiliating method, then adopt continuous semi-direct democracy as a replacement for representative democracy. |
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//why you'd want to have to listen to idiot politicians in
Brussels. Clearly you have your own?// |
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//On current evidence, the EU ones are better at it// |
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Better at being idiots or politicians? |
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Either way not a ringing endorsement, quite the
opposite in fact, the better they are at being either the less
anyone sane should want them. |
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//Publicly execute all existing national and local
politicians// |
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At the moment I'd probably vote for that, only one
problem, they'd delay implementing the result for three
years while they try to agree a deal. |
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Then the jokers will argue no one voted for a specific 'type'
of execution, should it be firing squad, hanging, lethal
injection? |
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"No one voted for 'this' type of execution, the pro-execute
vote is completely divided so obviously don't-execute won &
we should just forget it" |
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[Being serious, for a moment] |
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//marginal, inconclusive// |
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Now that's the kind of lie that has got us here & that I begin
to slide towards a pro-death penalty stance on, a
democratic first past the post vote (or referendum) with
only one question with only two diametrically opposed
options (leave or stay). |
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One side wins one side losses, even if it's by 1 vote which it
most certainly wasn't. So.. definitely neither "marginal" nor
"inconclusive"
then. |
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As for //advisory//, before the referendum every party said
they would respect & implement the result, every party
then went on to stand on a manifesto in the GE that
followed saying they would respect the vote. |
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As for //corrupt// I saw 'corruption' & lies on both sides,
but I saw far more on the remain side than leave, including
the government front loading the campaign spending for
remain with that £9 million pro-remain leaflet spend just b4
the start of the 'official' campaign period. |
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I've also seen just as much 'corruption' & lies in every GE
I've ever
witnessed & no one I remember has ever said it was grounds
to
overturn one of those, so it's disingenuous, hypocritical &
(on grounds of precedent) invalid to try & say it now. |
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[Being serious, for a moment/] |
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//& that I begin to slide towards a pro-death penalty
stance// |
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Consider for a moment the fact that I've always been
extremely anti-death penalty my entire adult life (which,
unfortunately, can't be said to have been a particularly
short period of time any more), & yet
have now been driven to a point where I can even say such
a thing. |
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[Being serious again, for a moment] |
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You might then begin to comprehend my anger at these lies
& those who use them in an attempt to overthrow the
result of as free & fair a democratic vote as any other we've
ever had. |
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So how about you let me pretend everyone here is still both
intelligent & uncorrupt by dropping any comments that can
be too easily used to identify you as a remoaner & a liar? |
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If you stay away from comments that can be unequivocally
attributed to one side or the other in future then so will I. |
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[Being serious again, for a moment/] |
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For other governments that don't have Brexit problems, does the country have a referendum prior to the election to decide what the referendum will be. To be sort of Brexit like? |
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I'd rather not talk about it any more, it just gets me angry ;p |
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Sorry [Skewed], I don't know how you can channel the anger, towards an outcome, on that one. [Max] would say. sharpen an axe. |
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[Skewed] needs to learn how to Give In To His Hate. |
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We suggest applying Thatcher's Principle; "In Defeat, Malice; In Victory - Revenge !" |
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The last time he did (more'n 3 decades ago now) the other
guy was lucky that a) the boss turned up b) the boss was big
enough to physically tear me off him, a few more seconds &
he'd have lost the thumb I was biting on. |
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The penultimate time (a couple of years b4).. that one
ended up in A&E, back a day or two later with a
lovely
swollen nose & two beautiful black eyes, I'd caught him
under the nose with a kick as two others hauled me off him. |
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I'm bigger, more muscle than I had as a teen, so no,
[Skewed] doesn't need //to Give In To His
Hate//, it's a very bad idea, it wouldn't be pretty. |
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But I like the //Thatcher's Principle// just couldn't let myself
indulge in it in any other state than that revenge is best
served in. |
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// it wouldn't be pretty. // |
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Yes, but it would bring in a mint of money on pay-per-view ... |
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You know I can't help but think you two have got your quotes
mixed up, surely //it wouldn't be pretty// is better suited to
[sleep]'s anno? |
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Endless re-runs of The Dam Busters, Waterloo, The Battle Of Britain, Angels One-Five, The Cruel Sea, The Longest Day, and Armada. |
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Does that answer your question ? |
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// unicorns can’t be delivered, // |
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It's just a matter of building a longer horsebox, so you can get the horn in without it banging on the end, shirley ? |
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No, a hacksaw & a tube of super glue at the other end is much
cheaper than a bespoke horsebox. |
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//not getting what you wanted, however any of this turns
out// |
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A lie, WTO would suit me & very many other leavers just
fine & you know it. |
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Lots of that, all from remainers, just about every word
you've just typed qualifies, you're deliberately trying to
wind me up by repeating all the same lies. |
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//Freedom and fairness// ???? |
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You don't even know what the words mean. |
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What makes me angry is these lies from smug self satisfied
entitled lying pieces of [insert word] like you, now I asked
you nicely once to drop the subject, you haven't, kindly
[insert word] off [insert word]. |
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// You don't get what you want just by being horrible. // |
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... Like Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Il-Sung, Napoleon Bonaparte didn't ... |
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// But democracy is here // |
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Oooh, where ? Show, show !
What you are told you have is "representative democracy" i.e. a system in which a tiny clique of notionally accountable but institutionally corrupt fat cats play musical chairs every few years at the expense of the general population. |
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It would be nice to try actual democracy. Twenty years ago, it wasn't possible. Now, it is - the technology exists. O Brave New World .... |
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Excuse us, the Five Minute Hate is about to start on our Telescreen ... |
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Thanks, we'll make a note of those. Very useful, and remarkably profound. |
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Wasn't there some other stuff about Strength Through Joy, and Work Makes You Free ? And there was another one ..
Peace Through Strength, or was it Peace In Our Time ? |
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Are you sure that wasn't Pisces? |
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//democracy is here to stay// |
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If democracy was here, we'd have left the EU already, you've
either no understanding of the word, are lying through your
teeth or are deliberately trolling to wind me up. |
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My money's on the latter with a large dose of the middle one
so for me my assessment of you is confirmed, I'll
ignore you from now on then. |
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1) The twelfth astrological sign in the Zodiac. |
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[Or, in accordance with less commonly
observed rules of dyslexia] |
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2) A portion of an
object or of material, produced
by cutting, tearing, or breaking the whole.
"a piece of cheese".. |
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So, would a combined referendum/election be a reflection or
an erection? |
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It's clear, isn't it, that elections longer than 4 hours require
immediate medical attention? |
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//Nowhere in the rules of democracy does it say that a
small minority can drag everyone else into chaos// That's
true. But it can be done with only a small majority. Even
entire governments are sometimes elected by a majority,
despite the wishes of a large minority. |
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The problem with arguing for another referendum is that it's
not equally balanced. People are asking for another
referendum on the grounds that the last one was three
years ago and we're still stuck. But if the referendum had
come out 52% in favour of remaining, you can bet that there
would be no excuse, reason or tolerance for another
referendum 3 or even 10 years later. |
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In other words, we seem to have a system stacked heavily
against leaving. |
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So, if there is to be another referendum, it should be on the
guarantee that, in the event of a "remain" majority, there'll
be yet another referendum in three years. Fair? |
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If we're apportioning blame, lets be really real though:
Which party's internal politics is defined by warring
stances on Europe?
Which party's leader tried to resolve this *internal issue*
by putting an in/out referendum on
Europe in to their election manifesto because *they didn't
expect to win* the election?
Which party's fanaticism for cutting public services led to
discontent among the electorate?
Which party refused any no-deal planning once the
referendum was set to start?
Which party's prime minister upped and fucked off when
the referendum result came in?
Which party fannied about with an internal power
struggle instead of doing any planning?
Which party triggered Article 50 without carrying out any
sort of consultation or scoping exercise?
Which party called an election after triggering Article 50,
thus eating up the limited time for
preparation and negotiation?
Which party set out arbitrary "red lines" making the
present outcome to the negotiation with the
EU the only possible outcome?
Which party so wanted to cling to power that it was
willing to hock itself to the ugh DUP?
Which party send a parade of intellectually ill-equipped
shitehawks into negotiate with the EU?
Which party's swivel-eyed loons consistently blocked their
own party's negotiated settlement with
the EU?
Which party's un-elected prime minister's galaxy brain
plan is to go full Riggs on a no-deal Brexit?
Which party is looking take entirely cynical advantage of
the UK's completely shonky unwritten
constitution in furtherance of the "throw the steering
wheel out the car" approach to engaging
with the EU?
Which party has consistently demonstrated that they have
not the slightest understanding of how
negotiation works?
AND
Which party has consistently - and this is over decades -
pursued an agenda and policies which are
primarily beneficial to the rich and always at the expense
of the poor? <-- this is nothing to do with Brexit, I'd just
built up a head of steam. |
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Oh look, a hot iron pan -- can I touch it? Let's see what
happens when I do that... |
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Ok, I will play. The rich are fairly obviously a minority.
Someone has to represent them, as just as obviously, if no
one did, the majority will come and take all their toys
away. |
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//at the expense of the poor// |
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Has Britain had a shrinking or flat GDP? |
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//the rich have done a truly stirling job in convincing the
poor that the EU doesn't serve their best interests// Hang
on a second, [zen]. If I remember correctly, the argument
for remaining in the EU was put quite forcefully by the
banks, by big business, and in general by places that have
most of the money. |
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//sad too for the middle-classes who can't send all their
gold overseas// On the other hand, the combination of
US/China trade wars and Brexit has sent the price of gold
soaring, which is nice. |
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Yes, corporations are obviously for the status quo. Blaming
nativism on the multinationals rich is rich indeed. |
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To the extent there's an unholy alliance there, it's the nature
of politics. |
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It's quite stupefying, indeed frightening, how so many in the
US think the answer is somewhere in the European model. |
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Yes, that's probably all true but it doesn't alter public
perception. |
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In the lead-up to the referendum, the Tories were arguing for
remain. Well, 50% of the population hate the Tories. Labour
was arguing for remain, and the other 50% hate Labour. And
all the banks and big businesses were arguing for remain, and
everybody hates them. Hence, to a large extent, the result. |
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Quite simply, there is not going to be a deal, and - importantly - there was never ANY prospect of one. |
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Consider the four possibilities. |
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Scenario 0: Britain negotiates a good deal and leaves cleanly with the minimum of fuss. |
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Downside for EU: Other nations think "Oooh, we could do that". |
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Scenario 1: Britain negotiates a rotten deal and leaves in a messy and confused way with a lot of pain and expense. |
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Upside for the EU: Other nations think, "Oooo-err, better stay put". |
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Scenario 2: Britain leaves without a deal and has a horrible time. |
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Scenario 3: Britain leaves without a deal and actually does OK or even quite well. |
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Downside for EU: Other nations think "Oooh, we could do that". |
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Two of those scenarios are Very Bad for the EU - and Scenario 3 is catastrophic. But the upshot is that the EU dare not let Britain leave without a lot of grief. They dare not negotiate a "good" deal for fear of the domino effect. |
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The worst possible scenario is that Britain leaves without a deal, manages OK, and doesn't pay any more money, leaving them with a gaping hole in their budget and lots of nations thinking "Why are we paying ? Britain walked away and lived". |
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Thus there can be no "good deal". |
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There's another hugely important factor that no-one's openly discussed. |
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Britain is a sovereign nation with its own nuclear-armed forces. Forget the yanks and Trident and dual-key; the UK has a huge stockpile of weapons grade Plut, and if the order was given the first W35 could roll off the production line in a matter of weeks. |
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Oh, they're not big, and they're not clever, but they do absolutely work (tried and proven) and several of the aircraft in the inventory retain the hardpoints to deliver them. |
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The only other nuclear power in europe are the ghastly frogs, who would probably ponder on history (Agincourt, Crecy, Malplaquet, Waterloo) and wonder of they really wanted to get into another pissing contest with the Brits, given that most previous times they've tride it they've received a right drubbing. Sitting on the touchline puffing on a Disque Bleu is probably their preferred option. |
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It's less than 80 years since the RAF erased Dresden and quite a few other cities. That's well within living memory, and the people who do remember it recall being quite cheerful at the time on hearing that thousands of krauts had been incinerated. Then there was Hamburg, and Lubeck, and ... the list goes on and on. |
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Sooner or later, push will come to shove. Bog boys games, big boys rules. |
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//busted open by actual events// |
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The "actual events" are that, since the referendum, vast
swathes of the government have been so opposed to Brexit
that they've stalled, wrecked and rejected. They are now
hoping that they've made such a mess of it that the public will
give up and give in. |
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It's almost as if no one really knew what the plan was when
this awfully exciting adventure started. |
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// decides not to leave after-all. // |
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That would be by far the best, in that it would be a total and blatant betrayal of the will of the people by their elected representatives, thus discrediting the entire parliamentary system and leading to the raise of a populist demagogue who will start shipping "undesirables" off to camps for "re-education". |
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Do you think [MB] will look good with a toothbrush moustache and a comb-over ? More practice with the straight-arm salute needed, too. |
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Watch out for the new West End hit, "Dial F For Fascism", opening soon. |
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Does any of this have to do with the timing of the release of
the upcoming Henry V movie? |
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// why the EU is not offering good permanent arrangements. // |
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What do you mean, "will"? |
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Our understanding of the social conventions of your species lead us to the conclusion that if you want to be a successful dictator you should wear some sort of uniform when harranguing the serried ranks of your loyal minions, not just a tootbrush moustache, a comb-over hairstyle, a pair of highly polished jackboots*, and a big smile. |
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What you do in the merciful privacy of your own homes is your own business, but recalliing (with a shudder, and a recurrence of nausea ) Sturton's meeting with that group of elderly nuns, something other than garments constructed of flesh-tinted translucent latex rubber adds greatly to your credibility as a leader,, and even if it doesn't, it helps keep the screams of horror and panic down to a bearable level. |
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* After further consideration, a low heel on the boots would have been much more suitable; the 100mm stilettos were a mistake. |
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I've heard "reflectendium". |
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[8th], did you get photos? |
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I've an aunt it would be amusing to horrify. |
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[Wanders off to sort out a fresh burner to send them from] |
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e Downing Street spokesperson said: ‘The
government will obey the law but the Prime
Minister will not be asking for an extension." |
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Boris is going to pretend he has nothing to do
with another extension...fingers in ears |
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Or, & this is just a wild surmise, they think they've found a
legal loophole. |
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////e Downing Street spokesperson said: ‘The
government will obey the law but the Prime Minister will
not be
asking for an extension."//// |
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//Or, & this is just a wild surmise, they think they've
found a legal loophole.// |
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BBC News seems to reckon Boris Johnson will send the
required letter asking for an extension, quickly followed
by a
second letter retracting it. |
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Assuming the EU is inclined to grant another extension, I
think the obvious solution would be to open letters from
the PM until they get one asking for an extension, then
stop until the extension officially passed. |
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If they arrive out of order they could of course throw the
first one away, commenting that it's too late to rescind
the previous extension. |
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The Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said at the weekend
that the government would "adhere to the law" but "test
to
the limit what it actually lawfully requires". But
apparently the law forcing the extension was very
specific,
including the text of the letter and everything.
So what other things might Boris be planning to do? |
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Write the letter in disappearing ink, or just with really
bad handwriting?
Write the letter but send it misaddressed, or without
sufficient postage, or write it after handling some TNT, or similar, so it gets delayed?
Kill himself in a ditch before sending it? (he's actually stated that
he'd prefer this) |
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//BBC News seems to reckon Boris Johnson will send the
required letter asking for an extension, quickly followed by
a
second letter retracting// |
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LOL, amusing as that sounds & as much as I'd enjoy it if he
did
I can't see it happening. |
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Do we know if Berkow's ruling regarding the need for
Queens Consent is definitely binding? |
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Because if not that can still be
applied retroactively after Royal Assent. |
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They could send a first letter saying to ignore the second
letter. |
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I'm pretty sure that anything said under duress does not have
force of law. |
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//I'm pretty sure that anything said under duress does not
have force of law// |
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A nice idea but I'm pretty sure any rules about anything done
under duress (signatures on contracts & such) not having the
force of law doesn't apply when the duress in question is the
application (or threat to do so) of the law itself. |
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Well, if the duress thing won't work, there's always the "fuck
'em" approach. |
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How about if Bojo writes to the EU saying "I'm about to ask
for an extension, so that the UK can have time to formulate
its plan to cripple Italy's economy and then sell France back
to the Germans?". This letter should arrive a day or two
before his extension request. |
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Or we offer Bulgaria £500 to veto the extension request? I
mean, even the French are up for it and all we've offered
them is a vague undertaking not to invade them. |
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Or, I know this sounds like a radical proposal, but what if
people actually considered the possibility of taking the
referendum result at face value? |
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//I know this sounds like a radical proposal, but what if
people actually considered the possibility of taking the
referendum result at face value?// |
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I've been saying that for years, no one seems to be listening,
no one in parliament anyway, well, not enough of them to
matter. |
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I'm secretly hoping they cancel Brexit. If they do, you will
have about half of the UK population being unhappy. This,
of course, is normal (in any general election, at least half
the people are unhappy), but in this case they'll be unhappy
*and cheated*, and that will lead to immense chaos and
disaster, which I'll enjoy watching. |
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Of course, if we *do* Brexit, you will still have about half of
the UK population being unhappy. But they will not have
quite the same moral justification for their unhappiness,
and it will all degenerate into quiet whingeing. Very dull. |
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This reminds me - referendums (yes, "referenda" - I know) should, like perishable food, have a "use by" date on them after which the result is no longer valid. |
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You assume, [zen], that all leavers were swayed by untruths
in the leave campaign; and that no remainers were swayed
by the scaremongering of the remain campaign. |
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Please, [zen], you and I have both been here long enough to
know we're not total idiots. So please don't suggest that I
(or anyone else in general) was duped into my vote. |
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And let me ask again: if it had come out 52% remain/48%
leave, do you seriously think anyone would be entertaining
arguments that we should leave after all, and that the 52%
were duped? |
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But I'd put it more strongly. |
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Plenty of people
have given plenty of examples of "practical benefits", that
you don't like
them is your problem & I've no intention of rehashing
arguments that have already been made ad nauseum. |
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Your
claim that none have been given by anyone is one of the
most
egregious, repetitive & insulting lies of the remain camp. |
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I
see
enough of
these lies on other platforms & I don't come here for them. |
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So
if you can't control yourself & stick to the truth or at least
something that vaguely resembles it kindly fuck off. |
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//if it had come out 52% remain/48% leave, do you seriously think anyone would be entertaining arguments that we should leave after all// - yes, if this had happened, the 'leave' camp would be grumbling about the illegitimacy of the referendum campaign, saying it was too close to call, that it should be re-run with a clearer question, etc. |
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There we go again, more lies & personal insults 'your
opinion
is based on ignorance & you don't read', there is no nice
when
faced with constant personal abuse from someone & that's
very much what your remain argument boils down to,
personal
insults & abuse seated in lies. |
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So again, kindly stop it, I come here to escape that
so find a way to say what you want
without making personal insults or fuck off. |
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[hippo] can do it so there's no reason you can't. |
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//if this had happened, the 'leave' camp would be
grumbling about the illegitimacy of the referendum
campaign// However, no major party would entertain any
of those grumbles. You know they wouldn't, and there
would be no prospect of another referendum for at least
ten years because the people had given the "right" answer
the first time. |
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In the run-up to the referendum, *all* the major parties;
*all* the major industries; *all* the bankers were
campaigning for remain. So, to say that the leave campaign
only succeeded because it had some sort of unfair
advantage is simply an error. |
|
| |
//Who knew back in 2016 that the result would cause this
much chaos and consternation?// Yes, but that chaos is due
to all the parties in-fighting and trying to remain. What
you're saying, in effect, is that the public were offered two
options, but the major parties would sabotage any attempt
to implement one of those options. Which is exactly what
has happened. |
|
| |
The fact is that the odds were - and still are - heavily
stacked against leaving. Viz: (a) almost everyone except
the general public was for 'remain' (b) elements of all
parties have worked to prevent leaving, thereby creating a
chaotic Brexit and (c) there was no reciprocal option to try
to sabotage a 'remain' process, had that been the
referendum result - there would have been no process to
sabotage. |
|
| |
Arguing that "we've torpedoed Brexit so badly that we'll just
have to remain" isn't really fair and isn't really English. |
|
| |
// //Who knew back in 2016 that the result would cause this much chaos and consternation?// Yes, but that chaos is due to all the parties in-fighting and trying to remain.// - I disagree - the chaos is partly caused by politics; it's not caused by "all the parties ... trying to remain" (otherwise, when there was a vote in parliament to hold a second referendum, this would have passed); it is chiefly caused by the architects of Brexit going into it with no plan at all for resolving all the boring, but difficult and important, technical issues which were raised during the referendum campaign and thereafter. MPs' response to this abysmal lack of planning has been to fall back on their principal responsibility, of doing what they think is in the best interests of their constituents and for the most part this means going into Brexit in an orderly way, with a plan, and an acceptable deal and with some of the consequences de-risked and mitigated, none of which has been put on the table by any of the Brexit cheerleaders thus far. |
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| |
Well, given that the multiple leave campaigns didn't agree about much, and what they did agree on didn't include any conception of the issues
which have become paramount - let alone a plan, sabotage is probably overstating it. It's just plain incompetence by the brexit side. |
|
| |
//The fact is that the odds were - and still are - heavily stacked against leaving. Viz: (a) almost everyone except the general public was for
'remain' (b) elements of all parties have worked to prevent leaving, thereby creating a chaotic Brexit and (c) there was no reciprocal option to
try to sabotage a 'remain' process, had that been the referendum result - there would have been no process to sabotage.// |
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| |
(a) Just under half the general (voting) public, you mean. This distinction is important because it only needs a small percentage to swing the
balance. I want to go into this some more below.
(b) Even the brexiteers themselves couldn't get on-side. e.g. voting against the agreed ("Theresa May's") deal. That's because they couldn't
even agree what they wanted.
(c) That is counterfactual, and I'm not sure I get the point. The implication is that this was a once in forever chance, and if it had failed it
couldn't ever be asked it again. But there had already been a referendum about staying in the EU before, so this is not the case. |
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| |
re. (a) above, and also:
//You assume, [zen], that all leavers were swayed by untruths in the leave campaign; and that no remainers were swayed by the
scaremongering of the remain campaign.// |
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| |
It's obviously unnecessary for /all/ leave voters to be swayed by untruths. Even a 4% excess[1] would have moved the slim margin the other way. |
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| |
With this in mind, I remember brexiteers complaining about scaremongering. But I didn't really see any evidence of that.
I mean, whatever anyone said would be accused of scaremongering, even if it seemed pretty sober and respectable.
On the other hand, the brexiteers scaremongered their arses off, for example saying that EU contributions would go up massively, that there could be a risk
of sex attacks on women by migrants if Britain stays in the EU and so on. |
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| |
[1] I realised later that this is a percentage of the total voting population. If you only consider 'leave' voters, then this value needs to be approximately
doubled.
|
|
| |
//I'm not sure I get the point. The implication is that this
was a once in forever chance// No, I think I failed to be
clear. What I meant was that, if the vote had been 52% for
remain, then it would not have been possible to sabotage
that course, since almost nothing needed to be done in
order to remain. |
|
| |
My overall point is that it's very easy to remain, but very
difficult to leave. I agree, the tories in particular should
have had a plan in case of a leave result, and they didn't.
But just because Westminster is incapable of delivering
something difficult, it doesn't nullify the fact that they are
there to represent the majority (unwashed, brainwashed,
misled, unthinking or unintelligent as they may be) - that's
what democracy is about. The same unwashed,
brainwashed, misled, unthinking or unintelligent people
gave them their jobs. |
|
| |
Sometimes it sucks but, as they say, the only good thing
about democracy is that the alternatives are all worse. |
|
| |
//My overall point is that it's very easy to remain, but very difficult to leave. I agree,
the tories in particular
should have had a plan in
case of a
leave result, and they didn't. But just because Westminster is incapable of delivering
something difficult, it
doesn't nullify the fact that
they are
there to represent the majority (unwashed, brainwashed, misled, unthinking or
unintelligent as they may be) -
that's what democracy
is about.
The same unwashed, brainwashed, misled, unthinking or unintelligent people gave
them their jobs.// |
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| |
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, regarding 'representation', zen_tom and hippo have made the point that -
that is what the MPs have
actually been trying to
do. |
|
| |
Given that what Brexit actually meant wasn't well defined, it meant different things
to different people.
That isn't a great start, and I don't think the conservatives did very well at any stage
of the process to date.
However, the brexiteers
did much worse, by promising that it would be 'easy'. |
|
| |
I'd like to see a referendum with many questions, nailing down exactly what people
actually want to happen,
based on the actual
political
policies. It would be quite involved, and would need some time to get right -
involving input from remainers,
brexiteers, Northern
Ireland,
Republic of Ireland and the EU. |
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| |
The advantage is that laws could be passed ahead of time to do exactly what it said
it would. |
|
| |
For example, part of it might be:
(Note I quickly banged this together and it's not going to hold up to much scrutiny -
it's just to indicate the
level of detail I'm proposing.) |
|
| |
Would you like to stay part of the European Single Market?
Keeping this retains freedom of movement of people, goods, services and money.
If we remain, we can have a soft border between Northern Ireland and the Irish
Republic as currently exists.
If we leave, we will need to make special arrangements, which may change the
relationship of Britain and NI. |
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| |
*remain in the single market
*leave the single market |
|
| |
If we were to remain part of the European Single Market, would you like to leave the
EU's Common Agricultural
or Fisheries policies?
Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein are in this state - while still having access to the
single market, although
they have less say on the
standards
prescribed. |
|
| |
*leave both
* leave agricultural policy only
* leave fisheries policy only
* remain in both |
|
| |
If we leave the European Single Market, what should happen to Northern Ireland?
* Form a hard border between NI and RoI
* keep NI in the single market. There would be a hard border between NI and Great
Britain
* Hand it all over to the Republic of Ireland in as orderly a manner as possible
* Secede NI from the United Kingdom and let it decide what it does from there.
* Don't leave the single market until technological measures to form a
straightforward border have been
established. |
|
| |
//they are there to represent the majority// - indeed, "represent the majority", not "do what the majority tell them". We elect MPs to act on our behalf in parliament and do not control how they act or what their consciences lead them to do. This is a good thing in the case of a single-issue referendum as the MP can take the outcome of that referendum and also a host of other factors (risks and impacts on the economy, the supply of goods and services, opportunities for young people, health outcomes, etc.) and weigh up these things together before deciding, on their own, how to best represent the interests of the people they serve. |
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| |
I dunno, folks. The question that was asked was 'leave or
stay'. It may have been a naive question. But given that it
_was_ the question, with no nuances, you have to take it at
face value. |
|
| |
No remainers, as far as I know, are arguing that we should
only remain "subject to certain conditions". Maybe
(probably) the public would have voted to "remain subject
to certain conditions" but, again, they weren't asked. |
|
| |
The remainers just seem incapable of getting their head
around the idea that they lost the referendum as it was
actually referendized. "Shirley some mistake", they say;
"these people didn't know what they were doing", they say;
"we, the experts, will decide on their grateful behalf", they
say; "shirley people will have changed their minds, so let's
assume they have", they say. |
|
| |
I think the remainers should pause a little and reflect on
what it means to have a vote, and what it means to be on
the losing side of a vote, even by two percent. |
|
| |
I think the best course for the UK is to remain in the EU. However there was a vote to leave which the Government said would be honoured and so we should probably leave. And yet leaving rashly with no deal and no planning would be stupid and a disaster and would only put off until after leaving having to deal with all the problems which should be addressed before leaving - a "no deal" Brexit doesn't make any problems go away. Also, since the referendum, the very severe probable impacts and costs of Brexit have become clearer so it might be a good idea to spell these out *before* leaving. |
|
| |
//leaving rashly with no deal and no planning would be
stupid// Yes. But Westminster has spent three years
failing to negotiate a deal. They now say "we will leave,
but only with a deal", which effectively chops us off at the
knees. "Dear EU, you want us to remain, and we will
remain unless we get a deal; now
let's hear your deal." |
|
| |
//put off until after leaving having to deal with all the
problems// Exactly! I have argued here and elsewhere
that the leaving date is not some endpoint after which
nothing can be negotiated. If endless delays don't motivate
our politicians or the EU to arrive at a deal, the necessity of
making one after departure will at least make it happen.
And we will be in no weaker a position than we are now
(stronger in fact, see above) in those negotiations. The EU
exports more to us than we do to them (not across all
sectors, but overall), and they will not cut off the noses of
their member states to spite their face. |
|
| |
//Exactly! I have argued here and elsewhere that the leaving date is not some endpoint after which nothing can be negotiated.// - sitting down to negotiate after a 'no deal' exit is too late - you need to sort things out before Brexit because leaving without a deal has serious impacts. Data exchanges with the EU which will cease in the case of a 'no deal' Brexit could damage national security. |
|
| |
//The remainers just seem incapable of getting their head around the idea that they lost the referendum
as it
was actually referendized. "Shirley
some mistake", they say; "these people didn't know what they were doing", they say; "we, the experts, will
decide on their grateful behalf", they say;
"shirley people will have changed their minds, so let's assume they have", they say.// |
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| |
I think you're making a few mistakes there.
Most egregiously, you're putting words in remainers mouths. No-one said that. [edit ~ Correction: very few people, and no-
one of consequence said that]
|
|
| |
//But Westminster has spent three years failing to negotiate a deal.// |
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| |
Pay attention. A deal was successfully negotiated, ages ago.
But Why, oh, why haven't we left the EU already?
Well, because most brexiteers wouldn't vote for said good-faith deal, arranged to leave the EU in an orderly
manner. Many remainers figured it was the best they could to make it work as well as it was ever likely to,
and voted for it. The Brexiteers didn't. |
|
| |
//I think the remainers should pause a little and reflect on what it means to have a vote, and what it
means to
be on the losing side of a vote, even
by two percent// |
|
| |
I think brexiteers should reflect on how people feel aggrieved when they lie through their arses, and revoke
campaign statements immediately after
the result is in. |
|
| |
Vote Leave said we'd negotiate a deal before initiating the legal process. Well, that didn't happen.
That's Theresa May's fault, but maybe the brexiteers should pause and reflect on how even people who
voted
'leave' might not be happy about not
following the promised process. |
|
| |
If what you are looking for is duplicity, look no further than Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was all for having two
referendums : "We could have two
referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the
renegotiation
is completed."
Who changed his mind: "The problem with that is that would overturn the result that we’ve already had." |
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| |
Actually, those things have been said, near enough. |
|
| |
For example, A C Grayling's book, Democracy and its Crisis, is
full of sentiments like those |
|
| |
You can't buy my vote..hang on ...conservatives
said lower duty on fags and booze at duty
frees..(starts waving "Boris, we love you" flag). |
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| |
//it was never a blank cheque// No, but nor was it offered with
conditions, any more than remaining was offered with conditions. Let's be
honest with each other here - both sides of the argument twisted things to
make their case; either the benefits of leaving, or the dire consequences
of leaving. It's now the latter that are being mostly bruited around by the
remainers. The Lib Dems have actually promised to revoke Article 50 if
they get into power, period. |
|
| |
//in any population there are extremists// Yes, there are. But please
don't assume that 52% of those who voted are extremists - almost by
definition, they can't be. |
|
| |
//W35 could roll off the production line.... several of the
aircraft in the inventory retain the hardpoints to deliver
them.// |
|
| |
No we don't! The last air-drop nuke was the WE.177. They
were gone from Tornados in the 90's and the arming
electronics stripped out when I was a wee work
experieince lad at Cottesmore ~2001. I mean I reckon we
could cobble something together pretty quickly but the
RAF is in a shocking state atm. |
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| |
[[ "Shirley some mistake", "these people didn't know what they were doing", "we, the experts, will decide on their grateful behalf", "shirley people
will
have changed their minds, so let's assume they have" ]] |
|
| |
//Actually, those things have been said, near enough.
For example, A C Grayling's book, Democracy and its Crisis, is full of sentiments like those// |
|
| |
A C Grayling, who are they?
"Anthony Grayling is Master of the New College of the Humanities, and a Supernumerary Fellow of St Anne's College, Oxford. " |
|
| |
...And he's certainly anti-brexit.
But eyeballing a few of his articles and blog entries on the page I found, I don't see that. |
|
| |
I see repeated pointing out democratic indications that there is no mandate for a hard brexit, such as May's loss of majority at election.
I see many concerns about flaws in the process, all the way through.
I didn't find anything particularly condescending and elitist.
In effect, it's not "these people didn't know what they were doing" so much as "you're not giving the people what they were promised".
[edit - I still didn't read all of it, but in his article "Parliamentary Sovereignty and the EU Referendum" I see a hint of the inclination you mention] |
|
| |
Perhaps his book is different. If you have a particularly convincing quote, I'll believe it.
But for the sake of argument, let's assume he was saying that. If that's the worst example, I honestly don't think that's particularly bad. I amend my
statement to "Hardly anyone said that." |
|
| |
You can see some random minor activist to be saying that on one side, while big-wigs on the other have gone beyond claiming that it's
undemocratic to vote, and have got to the point of explicitly saying that the people actually have changed their minds, so it's better not to ask
them
again? |
|
| |
Question: "do you still think the referendum is relevant considering all the new information we’ve got now?
"Or whether a public vote wouldn’t just clear up the air? – All the information is out, we can make an informed decision now." |
|
| |
Rees-Mogg: "The problem with that is that would overturn the result that we’ve already had." |
|
| |
//Let's be honest with each other here - both sides of the argument twisted things to make their
case; either the benefits of leaving, or the dire consequences of leaving. It's now the latter that
are being mostly bruited around by the remainers.// |
|
| |
One side took the truth, added best-effort predictions, some of which was unpalatable to the other
side, and as far as I could see presented it directly, perhaps with some chinese burns from the
more excitable members. |
|
| |
The other side splintered into several groups, which each made up whatever contradictory crap
they thought would be attractive to voters, didn't worry about what was actually feasible, and
repeatedly accused the other side of scaremongering whenever they pointed out issues. |
|
| |
It's the latter approach which won, and that got us where we are. |
|
| |
yellowhammer doc linky....we're all doomed |
|
| |
//One side took the truth, added best-effort predictions,
some of which was unpalatable to the other side, and as far
as I could see presented it directly, perhaps with some
chinese burns from the more excitable members.// |
|
| |
So, you really didn't see anything wrong with the way
Remain was sold? Truthfully? I mean, I saw lots wrong with
the Leave campaign. But you didn't see anything except the
presentation of some "unpalatable best-effort predictions"?
I hadn't realized the remainers were so squeaky clean. I
shall be sure to hang on their every word from here on. |
|
| |
//didn't worry about what was actually feasible// So,
you're saying that, almost 4 years ago, we should have
known that negotiating a withdrawal from the EU over a
period of three years was "unfeasible"? Welcome to the
Hotel California. |
|
| |
//So, you really didn't see anything wrong with the way Remain was sold? Truthfully? I mean, I saw lots wrong with the Leave campaign.
But you didn't see anything except the presentation of some "unpalatable best-effort predictions"?// |
|
| |
I actually didn't see much wrong with the remain campaign. There may have been some of the typical political annoyances, but I've
forgotten those. I didn't find the unpalatability of the economic predictions to the brexiteers dubious at all. The question was rather
whether they were accurate, and at the time ... I think I thought they seemed essentially to be what you'd expect - with the additional
proviso that I probably didn't pay too much attention. I mean it's pretty obvious that trade and particularly exports will take a hit if you
add more legal barriers, and practically the point of the single market is to remove legal barriers.
Your impression was very different, that I accept, but I don't know why that was. Could you give an example? What was the most
egregious? |
|
| |
//So, you're saying that, almost 4 years ago, we should have known that negotiating a withdrawal from the EU over a period of three
years was "unfeasible"?// |
|
| |
No, negotiating a deal wasn't unfeasible. It was done. It was as reasonable as could be expected given the circumstances. But the
brexiteers wern't happy with it, and voted against, so it didn't pass. |
|
| |
The issue which rose to prominence was the NI border. It's not the only thing, but it's essentially what stymied everything. And that is an
issue around leaving the single market, which the brexiteers were pretty definite on. |
|
| |
What did the brexiteers say was the plan for dealing with that? I don't think they mentioned it /at all/ in the referendum campaign.
It wouldn't have needed to be much, just definitive and made as a clear part of the campaign. |
|
| |
So I think that yes, they should have known that it would be a problem, and had a plan for it. They didn't have one, I think because it
hadn't even occurred to them. So it came as a terrible shock when the deal wasn't exactly what they wanted.
I say that's entirely a failure of their own making. |
|
| |
//But the brexiteers wern't happy with it, and voted against, // If I remember correctly,
remainers also voted against it. It was a fairly crappy deal, perhaps due in part to the
ambivalence of the UK politicians who were negotiating it. The fact that the EU were made
so aware of the splits in all the major parties did not help our negotiating position at all. |
|
| |
If all politicians had said "right; whether we like it or not, this is the referendum result so
let's get on with the job", things might well have gone better. Much of the problem (not all,
I agree) was due to a refusal amongst large parts of all parties to throw their hearts and
minds into brexiting as well as possible. Perhaps it was too much to ask remainers to get
behind a process they'd argued against, but that's what needed to happen. Those that
couldn't or wouldn't should have stepped aside. In that sense, Cameron did the right thing
(and the only credible thing) in stepping down; but then we got May, who has all the
ferocity and force of a damp rabbit. |
|
| |
As far as I can see, advocates of Brexit have had three years now to come up with a plan for Brexit which is (a) consistent with the constraints the EU warned us about prior to the referendum (not cherry-picking the 'four freedoms, etc.), and (b) not a disaster for the country - and they've failed. |
|
| |
// If I remember correctly, remainers also voted against
it. It was a fairly crappy deal, perhaps due in part to the
ambivalence of the UK politicians who were negotiating
it. The fact that the EU were made so aware of the splits
in all the major parties did not help our negotiating
position at all.//
If I were to compile a list of things
not to do before and during a negotiation just for general
consumption, it would definitely include:
1. Ensure
you have thought about the likely counterparty reaction
to your positions.
2. Ensure that your negotiators are not morons.
3. Ensure that you do not paint yourself into a corner by
revealing the areas where you are not prepared to move
in advance of negotiating.
4. Think about where you want to get to.
5. Think about how you are going to get there.
6. Carry out an analysis of what the alternatives are for
each side if no agreement is reached.
7. Ensure that any stakeholders on whose support you
count are kept informed and are brought and remain on
side as your primary negotiations progress.
The Conservatives either did not do these things or did
not pay attention to the people who they were paying to
do these for them. The current Brexit impasse - which is
just on the Withdrawal Agreement, not the future
relationship - does not exist because Parliament is
subverting the will of the people (ugh) just as it does not
exist because politicians are not trying hard enough. The
impasse exists because at every single step of the way the
Conservatives have made the wrong choices. Every single
rake in the field has been stepped on. From bean to cup,
they fuck up. |
|
| |
//From bean to cup, they fuck up.// There you have the new
motto of the [insert name of any current party here]. |
|
| |
//It was a fairly crappy deal, [...].// |
|
| |
Well of course it was a crappy deal. Why would you expect a Brexit deal to be anything else? |
|
| |
Economically, well, it couldn't possibly be better than actually remaining, in terms of trade with the EU. Or
even just as good. Regarding trade deals with other countries - well, they have to come later, and this has
nothing to do with them.
Legally - parts of the establishment want rid of human rights legislation, so it would be a win for them and a
loss for everyone else. They'd have probably managed that eventually.
Diplomatically - obviously we lose influence within the EU, and are unlikely to improve relationship with
many other countries by increasing our isolation.
For people just going about their own lives (and disregarding costs), leaving potentially leads to more hassle
at customs for going on holiday or emigrating to Europe. Or just travelling across the NI-RoI border. There
may be some short-term consumer confusion due to inability to use familiar standards, e.g. the CE mark.
For those wanting to restrict immigration, well, it likely will decrease immigration from the EU - if that's
the immigrants they cared about, that's success; of course, immigration from elsewhere might well go up to
compensate.
All those concerns people had relating to increasing scope of the EU had already been dealt with by David
Cameron, so none of those are relevant. |
|
| |
The UK does pay some net money towards the EU. That can stop, so that's great, right? It seems obvious
that the EU would want payment for commitments already made; that's just fair enough. And unfortunately
other costs may more than outweigh this so we lose money on net, but nevermind that eigh? |
|
| |
So yeah, it was crappy. That's just the best it can be. |
|
| |
//If you have a particularly convincing quote, I'll believe it.// |
|
| |
Opening the book at a random page, I find this: "Most of those
who have thought about the matter simply accept Plato’s
assumption that the demos will ever be unfit". And Grayling
makes it abundantly clear elsewhere that he agrees with that
view. |
|
| |
And if you think I'm placing too much weight on one
commentator, then consider Ron Aronson's book "We", published
in response to both Brexit and Trump. Aronson is interesting as
a former protegé of Marcuse, who was seen at the time as the
godfather of the student revolts of the 1960s, and the key phrase
in Marcuse's work was "introjected heteronomy", meaning "Your
opinions aren't really your own, so we're justified in ignoring
them". |
|
| |
//"Most of those who have thought about the matter simply accept Plato’s assumption that the
demos will ever be unfit"// |
|
| |
//"introjected heteronomy"// |
|
| |
Well okay, but I hope you understand the great respect I'm giving you in taking your word that
these quotes are complete, and mean what you say they mean - I did kind of want a quote in
comprehensible English, not philosowank. |
|
| |
I complain a lot about Rees-Mogg, but I do respect the fact that he manages to be
understandable. |
|
| |
..also:
//If I remember correctly, remainers also voted against it.//
I seem to remember that a pretty significant number of remainers /did/ vote for it.
But I'm not sure why you think remainers should have voted for it when brexiteers wouldn't. Why
on Earth would they have a higher duty to deliver brexit than the people who wanted it at any
cost? |
|
| |
//Why on Earth would they have a higher duty to deliver
brexit than the people who wanted it at any cost?// Given the
result of the referendum, all politicians had a duty to deliver
the best Brexit they could. |
|
| |
//Given the result of the referendum, all politicians had a duty to
deliver the best Brexit they could.// |
|
| |
No. It was an advisory referendum. People have been over this.
But.. if you don't believe us, perhaps you'd believe the High Court?
Or if not them, maybe Nigel Farage?
So they had a duty to investigate the possibility, but were/are still free
to vote for what they think is best for their constituents, the country
etc. |
|
| |
If the effects would be so bad that even campaign-leading brexiteers
didn't vote for it, this should probably tell you something. |
|
| |
Let us think again on the initial point at which it went wrong for Brexit -
when the campaign promise : "We will negotiate the terms of a new deal
before we start any legal process to leave" was broken. Maybe the
Brexiteers should have piped up right then. |
|
| |
(...slips quietly into the room...) er, hello? Sorry
i’m late. |
|
| |
Hmm. We have got ourselves into a bit of a pickle.
To the extent that a conceivable course of action
for our PM is to ask for his own government to vote
no-confidence in him. Goodness! |
|
| |
I’m not going to argue for one side or the other.
Just commenting that we’re exploring the limits of
currently defined democracy. |
|
| |
It appears we’ve found a discontinuity between
representative democracy and direct democracy. |
|
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We seem to have broken the system. We’re either
going to have to fix it, or come up with a new one. |
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Still, it was beginning to look a bit worn out
anyway. A bit like my dishwasher. |
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I will be very happy when this is over, and all the
zeros and ones used can be burnt
ceremonialy... |
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I think it's inevitable that there will be burning by one lot or
the other. Mobs with pitchforks roaming the streets putting
bricks through windows, cars set ablaze, "peaceful" protests
ending in bloodshed, stabbings and bludgeonings. And that's
just the MPs. |
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//understand the great respect// |
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Yes, thank you, this is much appreciated. |
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Please bear in mind that I am no enthusiast for Brexit; on
balance, I think it's probably a bad idea. However, the
deployment of "philosowank", to use your word, against its
supporters, is a symptom of a long-standing overlooked
problem. I'm not saying Brexit's going to solve that problem, just
that the problem itself is real. |
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//Mobs with pitchforks roaming the streets putting bricks through windows, cars set ablaze, "peaceful" protests ending in bloodshed, stabbings and bludgeonings. |
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Surely that's the House of Parliament tea trolley staff, they can do terrible things with a sharpened macaroon... |
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// However, the deployment of "philosowank", to use your word, against its supporters, is a symptom of a long-standing
overlooked problem. I'm not saying Brexit's going to solve that problem, just that the problem itself is real.// |
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Hold on. Your meaning is unclear to me.
Grayling isn't a supporter of Brexit. Presumably you mean supporters of 'benevolent rule by an elite' (which is what I interpreted
his comments to mean after some investigation). The second sentence in that quote confused me for a while, because I don't
see how it's relevant to that.
So I'm not sure what you think the overlooked problem is. |
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To clarify myself - I think there's a certain type of literary scholar who could charitably be described as writing books suitable
only for the benefit of a very select audience of a similar nature. Very much in an 'ivory tower'. The concept would obviously be
very appealing to that group, and I conceded that.
However, the nature of the word I coined was very much due to the overly obscure (and apparently deliberately obfuscatory)
nature of the two quotes, which put me in mind of the Sokal affair. |
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I'm just about to go away for a few days, so if I don't come back in good time to any response please don't be offended, I'm not
disregarding it, and barring incident will be back. |
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//Your meaning is unclear to me.// |
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Ah, yes; my bad: my use of quotation marks was ambiguous. I
did *not* mean to refer to the use of the *word* "philosowank"
by one side against the other. I meant to refer to the use of that
dialectical style by Remainers against Leavers. |
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I only put the word in quotation marks because it was not
originally my word. |
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Your reference to "benevolent rule by an élite" is apropos, the
problem being that its underlying attitude has spread a long way
beyond the ivory tower where it originated, and its effects have
been a lot less benign than they were supposed to be. |
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Does that clarify things at all? |
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in the sense that people are not bees and shouldn't be
treated as such, yes. In the sense that when the bear comes
for the honey, you need a lot of bees to stop him, no. |
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The isms that challenge us are an evolutionary force that
our intellect challenges in return, creating permanent
tension. Tough battle. |
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I think some decisions need to be made on a local
scale, because they’re dependant on local context.
But I also think there are decisions which are just
too complex and have such far-reaching
implications, which need detailed expert analysis
(and ideally impartiality) - and a transparent
decision making process - to deliver the most
beneficial solution for the nation and it’s citizens
in the long term. |
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Thank you pertinax, I understand now.
As an attitude, I think it's not new (it probably predates
democracy), and I'm not convinced it's increasing in
prevalence.
I also don't think the attitude is limited to one side,
although the embodiment differs - it's basically cliche now
for the lead brexiteers to claim something they don't like is
"undemocratic" - even when it's literally exactly how our
democracy has worked since its inception. |
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From my simple view from the other side of the world, everyone voted on an idea and it's future possibilities. Now that the real years of protoyping has started, no one wants to stump up and wear the true damage it takes to leave. The due diligence has been done after the fact. |
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Working together will always out weigh the go it aloners even if they have a rare starring moment. |
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//don't think the attitude is limited to one side,// |
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I absolutely agree that there's fault on both sides. Some Leavers
appear to be racist morons. Some Remainers appear to be anti-
democratic wankers. |
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A recent comment thread in the Financial Times, a Remainer
newapaper, was full of references to "the mob", as if the
annotators were stout eighteenth-century gentlemen with red
faces, powdered wigs and a nasty case of the gout. |
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Meanwhile, the attitudes to be found in the Daily Mail, a Leaver
newspaper have been both stupid and vicious for years. |
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Let's acknowledge that both exist, but try not to let them
dominate the debate. |
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//Democratic voting must be banned// - I think we
need a referendum on this |
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Title read as "Combined Electron Referendum". |
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The Monster Raving Looney Party sounds nice.
What is their agenda? |
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