Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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Donald Trump Clay Pigeons

feed the rodents, birds, insects and maggots
  (+1, -7)(+1, -7)
(+1, -7)
  [vote for,
against]

Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are, as the name suggests, clay pigeons with The Donald's grinning visage stamped onto their faces. A swirling blond hairpiece that has been glued firmly in position, completes the arrangement.

Just like the man himself, Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are totally inert, and those blasting them into smithereens from the sky can do so without the slightest feeling of guilt that any form of intelligent life is being harmed.

Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are made from a mixture of self hardening clay blended with some edible tidbits, so that foraging rodents, birds and various insect life can pick away appropriately at their fragmented remnants.

xenzag, Dec 11 2015

Punch Bob Punch_20Bob
[theircompetitor, Dec 11 2015]

Keep Trump out of The UK https://petition.pa...uk/petitions/114003
This is the most popular petition in the UK ever. 500,000 signatures to date. [xenzag, Dec 12 2015]

Petition to keep fascist Trump out of Republic of Ireland https://my.uplift.i...ton&time=1449817904
excellent - keep him in his own festering backwater [xenzag, Dec 14 2015]

[link]






       Isn't all clay self hardening ?
normzone, Dec 11 2015
  

       It seems to me this Idea should be more generic, allowing any face hated by someone (bring in a picture!) to be embossed onto some clay pigeons, during their making.
Vernon, Dec 11 2015
  

       Clay is usually fired to make it harden, which would be quite ironic in the case of Mr Fucking dick head racist Trump, but would prevent 'him' becoming bird food after the shot gun pellets have done the necessary. The only good news about Trump is that the petition to have him banned from entering the UK on the grounds of being a racist hate merchant has reached over half a million signatories. Seeing his rotten effigy spinning skywards would please many people no end.
xenzag, Dec 11 2015
  

       So much bile, spite and venom ... has anyone listened and understood what he actually said, rather than the media's intentionally distorted version ?   

       He's asking that the U.S. government get their act together and work out what's going on. That can't be too hard, shirley ?
8th of 7, Dec 11 2015
  

       // has anyone listened and understood what he actually said//I have. I read his immigration policy before he changed his website. It read like Mein Kampf.   

       As for the idea, it contains too much rant. [-]
Voice, Dec 11 2015
  

       // It read like Mein Kampf //   

       "Godwin's Law ! "   

       That's another five dollars in the bag ...
8th of 7, Dec 11 2015
  

       This is a win for two reasons.
1) It will probably flop because the demographic it caters to, doesn't like guns.
2) The demographic it caters to may be motivated to buy guns for the sole purpose of shooting this target, thereby removing themselves from that demographic.
LimpNotes, Dec 11 2015
  

       <looks around expectantly for five dollars>
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015
  

       Invoking Godwin's Law is totally inappropriate here. The policies Trump is advocating are fascist and aimed at stirring up the US populace against one religion and ethnicity. It's a rare time when comparison to Hitler is more appropriate. Sure he's not actually advocating genocide, but neither did Hitler, publicly, at first. He just used a popular hatred to get into power.
Voice, Dec 12 2015
  

       You can say what you want about Hitler... but he did kill Hitler.   

       Do you think it's good to ban people you disagree with?   

       Who decides what speech is good and what speech is bad? Which should be allowed and which should be banned?   

       Banning speech, any speech is totalitarianism. It's not Hitler yet, but moving in the right direction.   

       // It read like Mein Kampf //   

       Brave of you to admit you've read Mein Kampf. I haven't myself but I probably should since it's referred to so much so I'll know what the heck everybody is talking about all the time, in every argument about anything ever.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015
  

       No one is free to say what they want. If you want to contradict that in the UK you will find yourself in trouble with incitement to hatred laws. Keeping hatred merchants like Trump aware that the are not wanted is vital to the health of a decent society.
xenzag, Dec 12 2015
  

       Don't get it twisted [xenzag]. Communism and Fascism are the yin and yang of collectivism. Fascism is a response to Communism, and Communism is a response to wealth distribution patterns that occur in laissez-faire capitalism. There certainly still are proponents of capitalism, myself included, but if we are moving into collectivism I'll pick the system best represents my interests and that must be Fascism.
LimpNotes, Dec 12 2015
  

       //No one is free to say what they want. If you want to contradict that in the UK you will find yourself in trouble with incitement to hatred laws. Keeping hatred merchants like Trump aware that the are not wanted is vital to the health of a decent society//   

       Translation:   

       No one is free to say what I disagree with. If you want to contradict what my group says in the UK you will find yourself in trouble with people like me who are in charge and you should be afraid of us and keep your mouth shut. Keeping people I disagree with aware that they will be punished for having a different viewpoint from us who have risen to power is vital to our iron grip on society. We will use fear and intimidation to secure this iron grip.   

       Let me ask you this: What if your side is wrong on a given subject? Or is that not a possibility? Are you right about everything 100% of the time? I know I'm not.   

       Let's say you're right 95% of the time but 5% of the time you're wrong and you use threats and intimidation to quash dissent from those who are actually right on a particular controversy. Are you not being evil in that instance? Doesn't that bother you?   

       //Communism and Fascism are the yin and yang of collectivism.//   

       The alternative is a state which allows freedom of the individual to express themselves, right or wrong, so ideas can be debated freely and decided by the people on their merit, not controlled by fear induced by the state.   

       I don't need fancy terms to describe a state that so controls the individual that it assumes it can do the thinking for us. I'll just call it bad.   

       And isn't it ironic that you're calling out somebody for their hatred with this very hate filled post? Shooting pictures of somebody's face with a gun? Jeez.   

       Anyway, right or wrong that's my two cents.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015
  

       I think my Trump Clay Pigeons would sell rather well, so in that respect they are perhaps not that halfbaked. I may even approach Trump to see if he wants to invest in such a great money making idea.
xenzag, Dec 12 2015
  

       What do you have against clay pigeons that you would subject them to such cruelty?   

       They're horrid things, with their little beady eyes and sharp yellow teeth and long scaly tails, and they urinate everywhere, and they carry fleas and spread diseases like Weil's and Plague, is why.   

       // I haven't myself but I probably should //   

       It's hard work. And really not very good.
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015
  

       The problem with that logic is that Trump doesn't have any ideas. Somewhere between freedom to espouse any trash you care to vomit out and the thought police there is the precedent of wisdom and prudence, neither of which this trollish windbag has. The UK has every right to ban him if they so choose. He's the travbm of American Politics.   

       His popularity amongst the Republican party should teach you something about their current nature, which is why I rejected them several years ago.
RayfordSteele, Dec 12 2015
  

       //The alternative is a state which allows freedom of the individual to express themselves, right or wrong, so ideas can be debated freely and decided by the people on their merit, not controlled by fear induced by the state. //

Ideally sure. That is Individualism, the foundation of Democracy and the Free-State. But how do you propose to maintain those rights it in the face of opposition from several Collectives who don't respect the right of people to express themselves in this way, who aren't content to just ignore, but actively attack, even preemptively? If I may answer my own question; you form a counter-Collective.

//fancy terms//

We could call all of this Hitler, and while would wouldn't necessarily be wrong, it would just be a glossing over of the issue, with no room for better understanding, analysis, or problem-solving.

//I just call it bad.//

"Bad" is a relative term depending on perspective and available options. Suffice to say the free-state is ideal, but how do you propose to maintain the free-state, when faced with the recent efficiencies of Collectives that operate contrary to its principles?
LimpNotes, Dec 12 2015
  

       //how do you propose to maintain the free-state, when faced with the recent efficiencies of Collectives that operate contrary to its principles?//   

       There's no other way, you have to fight for it. Like anything else in life that's worth something, it comes with a cost. The struggle for individual freedom is just that, an ongoing struggle. Sometimes that struggle just requires speaking your mind, sometimes you need to physically fight against those who would use violence against you and do you harm.   

       One thing to take to heart, most collectivists are pretty weak people, that's why they join big groups. One smart, strong individual is worth a thousand mindless sheep. Allow me to share a great story of my wonderful dad. I'm paraphrasing from a story my mom has told a dozen times so accept this, my best effort to relate it second hand as I was not there.   

       I was just a kid at the time many years ago when our town meeting had been inundated by members of a group called "The Venceremos" which was a self described communist revolutionary group espousing the violent overthrow of anybody who got in their way. My dad, a former Korean war veteran didn't have a lot of respect for communists like this having fought Kim Il-sung's thugs after they invaded South Korea. These penny ante revolutionaries were wearing little badges in the shape of the AK-47 machine gun to intimidate the pandering, frightened townsfolk. As one of the guys was yelling at my dad my dad interrupted him and asked "What's that button you're wearing on your jacket?" to which the man replied "That's an AK-47, the finest firearm in the world! The tool we're gonna will use to overthrow your corrupt society." My dad said "Have you ever shot somebody with one?" No answer. At this point my mom says she scrunched down in her chair trying not to be seen, absolutely terrified. She said the whole hall, formerly full of yelling and screaming had suddenly become so quiet you could hear a pin drop. "Have you ever killed anybody?" my dad said. No answer. "Because I have. In the army I killed people carrying that very weapon. I did it because it was my job. I was trained to do it and when called on, I did it well. Now when this revolution you want comes, I'll be the one with the experience having been there before. You'll be new to this. So keep that in mind when you try to come down my street carrying one of those."   

       They never came back, and I'm not saying my dad had anything to do with it but they disbanded not too long after that.   

       I grew up in a pretty tough part of town and I know bullies. They're all a bunch of pussies deep down. Stand up to them like my dad did to these thugs and they melt like butter.   

       So don't be afraid, stand up for your rights and don't ever let anybody say you don't deserve the right to self determination or that they know what's best for you better than you do. They don't, and when it comes right down to it, they're usually just making a bunch of noise. Swat 'em on the nose with a newspaper and they run into the night looking for weaker prey to bully.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015
  

       // the recent efficiencies of Collectives that operate contrary to its principles? //   

       Collectives are goood ...
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015
  

       Collectives of good people are good.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015
  

       What about evil hegemonising swarms ?
8th of 7, Dec 12 2015
  

       I'm ok with those.
doctorremulac3, Dec 12 2015
  

       'Bar Trump from entering the UK' petition now has 551,988 signatures. This is a most excellent result and as the petition has until June to run, it's a certainty that the cretinous and racist Trump will ensure that the number increases. By then I will with any luck be selling my Trump Clay PIgeons and feeding the hungry wildlife with his fragmented remnants.
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       Actually [Borg] has me thinking about that episode where one of the collective got separated, and was totally lost and confused, and had to learn to function as an individual. Like a baby, but becoming an empowered individual in the end. Certainly there is a model here that could be emulated. Individual empowerment is the key to the type of behavior that you are talking about [doc]. Collectivism is indoctrination that puts the "we" before the "I", the "is it allowed?" before "is it right?", the "what should I think?" before "what do I think?". Certainly something could be developed that would disseminate empowerment in Individualism rather than Collectivism, as we are seeing it now.
LimpNotes, Dec 13 2015
  

       // that episode where one of the collective got separated //   

       Third of Five in "I, Borg", also known as Hugh. But he saw sense and rejoined us in the end.   

       <adds [LimpNotes] name to the list of dissidents and undesirables>
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015
  

       //Collectivism is indoctrination that puts the "we" before the "I", the "is it allowed?" before "is it right?", the "what should I think?" before "what do I think?".//   

       That's a pretty insightful way to frame the differences between a hive mind society and one that values self determination.   

       I guess something that helps individuals who think for themselves do better is a society with a free market economy that's doesn't have a social strata that's tough to move up in. That gives incentive to being an efficient, good person because being a good person is good business. It also gives incentive for innovation and innovation is something that EXCLUSIVELY comes from the individual. All great inventions have a single name that can be attached to it. (although to be fair most inventions had other individuals who worked on previous incarnations)   

       Even when you have a group of people coming together to do some great thing such as building the internet or landing on the moon, even then they're piecing together the accomplishments of motivated, self determined individuals. You could make a mosaic of the Saturn 5 Moon rocket surrounded by all the individuals who invented the various pieces that went into it. Marconi for the radio, Edison for all the little lightbulbs in the control panel, Goddard for the engines and so on and so on.   

       Although bad, groupthink people can do well, I think good, individualist people do better and I see a lot of good people in business. They have to be good or else people won't do business with them. Business does better in a free market economy and a free society and guys like Steve Jobs are going to move us further along than "The Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology", the Soviet Union's attempt to get people together to create new technological innovations. A couple of Americans in a garage beat the hell out of that model every time. Why? Because they have incentive. When you're working at the Soviet's think tank, you're only incentive is to not make waves and get fired. Go with the flow, keep your head down and don't piss off Stalin.   

       The societies that crush the individual do the absolute worst. North Korea is like a monument to totalitarianism with free South Korea set next to it as an example of free and fascist societies. Just look at the famous picture from space of the two countries. North Korea can't even light their country at night.   

       //By then I will with any luck be selling my Trump Clay PIgeons and feeding the hungry wildlife with his fragmented remnants.//   

       Wow Xen, lotta hate there.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       ... with the added advantage that they didn't have to tell the world about the previous four dogs that failed to make it ...
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015
  

       //promotes everybody to want to become a millionaire or a superstar or a hero, then most people will be disappointed//   

       You raise an interesting point about the stardom thing.   

       I used to make my living in the music business back when music was made with clubs banging on dinosaur ribs.   

       You had your bands that made it to MTV and world tours, playing stadiums, getting radio play and getting their records in all the stores, then you had bands that just might make an augmented income playing 3 or 4 shows a month around their home towns. Stars? Maybe not, but more celebrated than the average Joe. And as somebody who paid their dues in the lower ranks before moving on, I can tell you that you get some of the things that the stars get. And yes I'm talking about adoration from the ladies, pretty much the main perk of stardom in my opinion. But more than that, you might get your song in a movie, or a video game. There's various levels of success and the satisfaction that comes with it. It's not just star/not star. I remember the first time I saw my name on the big screen in the credits to a major motion picture. I didn't get all that much money, but it was really satisfying. When I get royalty checks all these years later that's pretty satisfying too. I would suggest all young people who have a love of the arts give it their best shot. But what's the expression? Keep your dreams and your day job? Something like that.   

       Anyway, music was the ultimate entry level job that was a complete meritocracy. Sports is another one. Why are they so loved in our culture? Because, with sports at least, not so much music anymore, it's about being good, not connected. In sports you'll never hear this:   

       "And the number one ranked quarterback of the tenth year in a row is Buddy Jones, who is of course the son of NFL commissioner Buddy Jones Senior, owner of the team his son plays for."   

       No, it's going to be the guy who's best suited for the job, the guy who puts in the most effort and is the most talented. It's not about him being connected or being a member of the right family. THAT'S why we love sports. You can come from the worst shit-hole in America and still succeed if you're good enough. This gives us all hope. If that guy from a humble background can succeed to these great heights, maybe I can better my existence as well. Maybe not as much as him, but clearly hard work pays off SOMETIMES. Maybe I'll get good enough at football to play in college and become a high school coach and make a reasonable living doing something I really love even if I don't make it to the big leagues.   

       That's how the American dream works. It's not all or nothing, but it's powered by hope.   

       That's why the hive mind socialists want to erase hope, tell you that the cards are stacked against you so the only way to succeed is to vote for me, we'll have this nice little revolution, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and you'll get lots of money without having to do anything. Plus we'll get rid of those dirty, filthy horrible people, the: (fill in the blank) that are holding you back! They get votes, they get power and on it goes, this scam they run.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       //Wow Xen, lotta hate there.// - yes I make no apologies for detesting Trump, but my hatred is only for one nasty fascist moron, and not the entire Muslim population of the world (all one billion of them) and not for the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump described as rapists.
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       // my hatred is only for one nasty fascist moron //   

       Who's that, then - Tyson Fury ? Trump may be a fascist, bigoted, racist, all of the above, but no-one (apart from Ronald Reagan, who was actually a Disney Corporation Animatronic) gets to be a billionaire and a presidential candidate of they're a moron.   

       // the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump described as rapists. //   

       The delicious irony is that some of the more extreme militant feminists would wholeheartedly agree; they advanc the "All men are rapists" view.   

       So, now the militant feminists and Donald T. are in the same corner ... who'd have thought it ?
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015
  

       Wow, Xen and Ian, lots of hate today.   

       Ian, I think I obviously hit a nerve. I specifically broadened the definition of success to be anything that brings the person happiness and satisfaction. You don't have to be a star, maybe you can just do something that brings you happiness. You don't even need recognition, just personal achievement that makes you feel good, nobody else. And that ignited a xenophobic rage?   

       Ok Ian, what's your definition of success? Your definition I'm talking about, not anybody else's. Second question, are you successful by your own definition of what success is?   

       / the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump described as rapists. //   

       Can you send me the link or video of Trump describing the entire male population of Mexico as rapists? I saw the one of him saying the following:   

       "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. (A Mexican man asking the question) They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."   

       When you have to twist the truth to make your point is doesn't help your point. And me calling it twisting the truth is being polite. Yea, ok, maybe he's a trillion times worse than Hitler, but he never said that as far as I know.   

       But hey, send me proof and I'll stand corrected.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       [doc], you shouldn't criticise like that if you're previously going to say things like //the hive mind socialists want to erase hope//, because that's actually pretty indiscriminate slandering of quite a wide swathe of opinion.
pocmloc, Dec 13 2015
  

       Well, what if that's what I believe right or wrong? I do think there's big business in big government types selling misery and hopelessness along with the idea that they're the cure to one's wretched existence. This whole, "Life sucks and there's nothing you can do about it but you're just a few votes away from paradise." thing. I think it's a scam.   

       I'm not inditing all socialist programs, some of which are good. Fair enough?
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       [doctorremulac3] "They're rapists" (Mexicans) - that sounds like everyone to me. Good luck defending the words of one of the most vulgar morons that ever opened his mouth. His appeal is of course to the gung-ho, poorly educated, feeble minded, dumbed down, born again, and inarticulate..... ie a hill-billy constituency consisting of a very large number of people.   

       Meanwhile, I forgot to include that Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are sprayed with a harmless gold paint to add to their tackiness and increase airborne visibility.
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       //"They're rapists" (Mexicans) - that sounds like everyone to me//   

       Except the Mexican gentleman asking the question who he specifically referred to: "They're not sending you." and all the people included when he wrapped up his comment with " And some, I assume, are good people."   

       Was he calling the assumed good people he referred to rapists as well?   

       You don't have to answer, I won't embarrass you but that's not what he said.   

       I'm not so much a fan of Trump as a detractor to this "two minute hate" routine that's so popular in our society among some groups.   

       I don't agree with certain politicians but I don't think it serves anything to beat likeness of them to show the world how much I hate them. That would just make me look like an idiot. I can do that on my own without having to beat effigies with a stick.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       Well I suppose you know, as you seem to be his spokesperson here. It reads as "all Mexicans are rapists" to me. Does he actually like anyone? Chuck Norris I suppose?
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       You mean "If you love him so much why don't you marry him?"?   

       Forgetting about Trump for a second, I think we should give total control of who comes into the country from now on to the Native Americans who were here before the Europeans. Do you have a problem with that? If you're European, I would say you have no moral authority to have a problem with that.   

       I would say this, the Native Americans would probably not be considering the need for Democrat votes and cheap labor to drive down wages when deciding who gets to come in and who doesn't. I'm not sure what their criterion would be, but then again, as a descendant of European immigrants it's really none of my business is it?   

       (holds microphone in outstretched arm, drops it, walks off stage)
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       // I think we should give total control of who comes into the country from now on to the Native Americans who were here before the Europeans. //   

       Which is fine in principle, except all those people have now been dead for the best part of five hundred years.   

       How are you going to work that, spirit dancing ? A ouija board ?   

       <picks up microphone, surreptitiously inserts small pyrotechnic device, replaces on floor to await an unsuspecting victim, scuttles off sniggering>
8th of 7, Dec 13 2015
  

       //How are you going to work that, spirit dancing ? A ouija board ?//   

       I'll be needing a big government grant to study the problem. 20 million should get the ball rolling at least enough to get our offices set up. Furniture, we'll need some nice art on the walls. I'm going to need a private box at the stadium as well and NO WAY am I flying commercial so we'll need a private jet too.   

       To deny me this money is racist and probably a hate crime.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       Yes fair enough when you explain like that.   

       I’m actually intrigued by the Trumphobia. Are the other presidential contenders really such paragons of liberal democratic civilised tolerance and humanity? Is it worse to slander a certain demographic or to drop explosives on their heads? Modern morals are so confusing.
pocmloc, Dec 13 2015
  

       Maybe it's a typo and he meant therapists...   

       //Are the other presidential contenders really such paragons of liberal democratic civilised tolerance and humanity? Is it worse to slander a certain demographic or to drop explosives on their heads?//   

       Hey, good point. As far as Muslims and the Middle East is concerned, Clinton voted to invade Iraq, Trump was dead set against it. Said it would destabilize the area and we shouldn't get involved.   

       Sorry folks, nobody likes the guy who brings facts to the "Two Minute Hate" but:   

       "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 arguing for invading Iraq.   

       “I do not believe that we made the right decision going into Iraq, but, you know, hopefully, we’ll be getting out,” Trump said on “Larry King Live” in November 2004. (One year after the invasion)   

       Remind me which one's Hitler again? The one calling for war right? No? I'm pretty sure old Adolph was a big fan of the whole war thing. I'd say that's Hitler characteristic numero uno.   

       And there's more. That same year here's his interview with Esquire magazine.   

       "Look at the war in Iraq and the mess that we're in. I would never have handled it that way. Does anybody really believe that Iraq is going to be a wonderful democracy where people are going to run down to the voting box and gently put in their ballot and the winner is happily going to step up to lead the country?," said the host of NBC's "The Apprentice," whose hallmark line is "You're fired."   

       "C'mon. Two minutes after we leave, there's going to be a revolution, and the meanest, toughest, smartest, most vicious guy will take over. And he'll have weapons of mass destruction, which Saddam didn't have," Trump said in excerpts of the interview released in advance to Reuters.   

       In a left wing article trying to say the early criticism of the war wasn't "opposing it" they did admit "It’s true that about a week after the March 2003 invasion, Trump described the war as a “mess.”"   

       And I cut and pasted that, I didn't have to do any switcharoo with the wording.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       Are you Trump in disguise?
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       No, I don't even agree with half of what he says, but I'm just not a fan of this political hate stuff. People are putting up videos of their kids bashing pinatas of the guy saying how much they want to kill him. Great message for children, if you disagree with somebody, violence is the answer, not dialog. "Let's kill people we have differences with!"   

       You seem like a nice person Xen, this mean stuff is below you. From my perspective, I think Hillary Clinton is as corrupt as they come, but the idea of defiling an image of her? Just dumb.
doctorremulac3, Dec 13 2015
  

       //I'm just not a fan of this political hate stuff// So you think Trump is not a hate merchant. Amazing.
xenzag, Dec 13 2015
  

       You could make the targets out of flapjack, then the animals would have more to eat.   

       I'd like to see how many would sign a petition refusing reentry to Cameron (the dull tory, not the AI in tscc) and/or everyone in the UK chipping in 10p to me for never coming back.
not_morrison_rm, Dec 13 2015
  

       An organization that collects money to be paid out to politicians in return for them resigning?
Voice, Dec 13 2015
  

       For all of that Iraqi insight, Trump hasn't said five intelligent things the entire race. He's still the travbm of American Politics.   

       Forgive me but these days the Rupubs sound more like mindless collectivists than the Democrats.   

       Which group of Native Americans would you care to put in control? The Cheyenne, who foughy for land with the Souix? Ir perhaps the Iroquois nation? Native American 'states' were frequent invaders of each other, and so that might be difficult.
RayfordSteele, Dec 13 2015
  

       //Forgive me but these days the Rupubs sound more like mindless collectivists than the Democrats.//

Tremble in fear and know that you are doomed.

"A principality is created either by the people or by the nobles, accordingly as one or other of them has the opportunity; for the nobles, seeing they cannot withstand the people, begin to cry up the reputation of one of themselves, and they make him a prince, so that under his shadow they can give vent to their ambitions.

The people, finding they cannot resist the nobles, also cry up the reputation of one of themselves, and make him a prince so as to be defended by his authority.

He who obtains sovereignty by the assistance of the nobles maintains himself with more difficulty than he who comes to it by the aid of the people, because the former finds himself with many around him who consider themselves his equals, and because of this he can neither rule nor manage them to his liking. But he who reaches sovereignty by popular favour finds himself alone, and has none around him, or few, who are not prepared to obey him." ~Machiavelli (The Prince)
LimpNotes, Dec 14 2015
  

       I know it's a stupid point, but if Mac was so smart, how come he never got to be a prince?
not_morrison_rm, Dec 14 2015
  

       I know it's a stupid point, but if Mac was so smart, how come he never got to be a prince?
not_morrison_rm, Dec 14 2015
  

       I know it's a stupid point, but if he was so smart, how come he never got to be a prince?
not_morrison_rm, Dec 14 2015
  

       He was REALLY smart. He got princes to pay him, and exercised power throught them. All the perks without the risks.
8th of 7, Dec 14 2015
  

       //So you think Trump is not a hate merchant. Amazing.//   

       So you think YOU'RE not a hate merchant? Amazing.   

       //Which group of Native Americans would you care to put in control? The Cheyenne, who foughy for land with the Souix? Ir perhaps the Iroquois nation? Native American 'states' were frequent invaders of each other, and so that might be difficult.//   

       Good question. Here's the good answer.   

       All these tribes now have areas that they control These areas would be expanded to cover the entire US. They would control immigration to these areas.   

       Now it's fine to not like this idea, but realize you will never again be able to be a good liberal by lamenting the plight of the Native American at the hands of European immigrants again having passed on the opportunity to make amends by letting them control future immigration.   

       So if you don't like that idea, that's fine but you must take the pledge. Raise your right hand and repeat after me:   

       "I, a good liberal..."   

       "I, a good liberal..."   

       "Believe that the Native American should not be in control of who immigrates to their native lands."   

       "Believe that the Native American should not be in control of who immigrates to their native lands."   

       "And believe that control should be in the hands of the European Americans alone."   

       "And believe that control should be in the hands of the European Americans alone."   

       "Because we're better than they are."   

       "Because we' re better than they are."   

       (Shakes hands) Congratulations, you're now officially a racist.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       ... and presumably start fighting one another again.
8th of 7, Dec 14 2015
  

       Perhaps. None of my business.   

       Remember, as a European American I have no say in these things.   

       Hey, just following what the progressives tell me and taking it to the next level. Remember, to disagree with me or anybody else who espouses progressive doctrine may be a racist hate crime.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Soon, failing to hate yourself for not being a member of an underrepresented and disadvantaged minority will be a crime, too.   

       Hear that knock on your door ? That's the Thought Police....
8th of 7, Dec 14 2015
  

       Just go out and knock on your own door, save wasting taxpayers money waiting for the authorities to do it for you.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015
  

       There's only one thing keeping us from absolute totalitarian fascism: the utter and complete incompetence of the groupthink hive-mind big government types because at the end of the day, they're really not that bright.   

       And we may thank providence for that fact.   

       Remember, the first thing these control freaks do when they grab power, (after they kill non-believers like me) is to turn on themselves. A philosophy bent on war doesn't usually have an end game that doesn't include more war. Ask Robespierre about the fraternity of revolutionaries.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Surprisingly, you had my full agreement with your unexpectedly libertarian views up until:   

       //a government should not expect health care to make a profit — that’s just utterly stupid, it’s an expense, a service, and is supposed to cost money, not make it.//   

       Since I assume we can agree that medical research and resultant medications and treatments are at the center of a working health care system, let's look at where that research is done.   

       Of the top ten medical companies, 7 are located in your hated United States, one is in France, one in England and one is an English/Swedish company. And while 3 are located in countries that tend towards democratic socialism, ALL of these companies are stock market traded capitalist entities.   

       Ok Ian, let's say you're a genius. You can make millions of dollars with your talent by working for a huge biotechnology firm in America, or get a pat on the head if you're lucky by doing the same work in North Korea.   

       Where are you going to take your talent? Free market or socialist paradise? That's why socialist paradises don't create anything. Their only commodity is control by fear of the people and the distribution of what meager goods and services their anemic society is able to produce.   

       As far as your other assertions that government should stay the heck out of other areas of people's lives, I agree whole heartedly, but when you say it should stay out of business, which I also agree with, you're forgetting that making medicine is business. And if it becomes government mandate, it quickly becomes a stagnant and dead business.   

       Many more technologies we enjoy started in the garages of free people than in shining government buildings created by monolithic governments that are sad monuments to waste and failure. And extremely expensive monuments I might add.   

       Show me a medicine invented in the old Soviet Union and I'll show you a hundred invented in the free west.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Do us all a favor and know when you've carried on enough.   

       Nothing I said was racist, nor was it even implied. It was simply pointing out the fact that the Europeans aren't the only invaders throughout all of time.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       //Do us all a favor and know when you've carried on enough.//   

       If you can't say anything intelligent don't pretend to represent some kind of intimidating coalition.   

       //It was simply pointing out the fact that the Europeans aren't the only invaders throughout all of time.//   

       I'm being ironic Ray. Sorry you missed it.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent.   

       This frankly isn't your idea. So, you first.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       //Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. This frankly isn't your idea. So, you first.//   

       I now you are but what am I?
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       I decline to answer the question on Mark Twain's advice.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       doctorremulac3, you do know that facebook is currently the cognoscenti's venue of choice for this sort of rigorous political and philosophical discourse, yeah?
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       Good, knock yourself out.   

       Are you talking about the "Donald Trump Clay Pigeons" idea and it's associated political statement or the numerous responses to it?   

       Can't win the argument, just insult or try to silence the person who's winning I guess.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //Can't win the argument, just insult or try to silence the person who's winning I guess//
Who can't win what argument?
Who is insulting who?
Who is silencing who?
Who is winning?
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       //a government should not expect health care to make a profit//   

       Actually, I would agree with that. Of course, people who supply the health service with drugs and equipment expect to make a profit, and should be allowed to do so, so that they continue to innovate. But the health service itself is a government-funded service to its citizens, which they pay for through taxes (or, if the government is unable to afford it, through insurance). As far as I know, that's true in all civilized countries.   

       Equally, of course, education, the military, and infrastructure should not be profit-making enterprises, even though those supplying those systems may make a profit. If you heard that the US military was running a $40b profit, you'd probably worry.   

       But I digress - I appear to have wandered into a daylight- deprivation-induced argument here, so carry on and may the best 'baker win.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       I'll just delete the entire idea, then repost it to decontaminate it of all the moronic Trumpisms.
xenzag, Dec 14 2015
  

       OH! We're silencing doctorremulac3, the argument-winning arguer! I see. Well, please do carry on.
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       Does "trump" have the same meaning in the US as in the UK?   

       When people read "Trump for the Whitehouse!", do they?
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       *parp*
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       *hooonk*
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       *chufffff*
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       hang on hang on a minute
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       *truuummmp*
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       Right.   

       Incidentally, Google Translate translates "mein" as "mine" and "kampf" as "tussle", but "mein kampf" as "mein kampf".
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       I don't have a problem with making sure people have access to medicine if they're poor funded by the government, but what doesn't work is the totally socialist state trying to get anything done besides re- distribution, such as the creation of new medical technology.   

       Xen, if you think what somebody is saying is wrong, just get in there and say what's wrong. You can't expect everybody to agree with you.   

       Or you can just erase the whole thing along with all the comments from both sides. Seems kind of childish though.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //OH! We're silencing doctorremulac3, the argument-winning arguer! I see. Well, please do carry on.//   

       She'd be silencing you too genius. Even brilliant contributions like: //*parp* / *hooonk* / *chufffff* / hang on hang on a minute / *truuummmp*//
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Oho, no, that can't be the case, because I wasn't winning the argument.
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       It appears your argument has deteriorated into typing random noises.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       // I don't have a problem with making sure people have access to medicine if they're poor funded by the government, but what doesn't work is the totally socialist state trying to get anything done besides re- distribution.//   

       Well, I'm not sure. In the UK (and some other European countries), healthcare for all is paid for through taxes, because the underlying philosophy is that everyone is entitled to equally good healthcare. It's not perfect, but it does work much better for almost everyone than purely private healthcare, and its overall cost is lower because there isn't a profit motive all the way through the system. We like to whinge about it, of course, since it's a national system, but it is generally good.   

       (Slight digression into anecdotal example: when I, my wife or our daughter have needed any form of healthcare, it's been through the NHS and has been uniformly excellent. My sister-in-law's rich boss pays through the nose for private healthcare and recently had abysmal treatment.)
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       Waiting for this point to come up.   

       Yes, we have a hybrid system here too. A good thing in my mind. I'm not sure how the private system that gives poor service could possibly hope to survive. Why would they continue to use it? If you're going to pay more for something it has to be a lot better than the equivalent free service no?   

       I've got very good private insurance and am very happy with it. I know, one story among many but should I become destitute, we have always had state provided health care of some sort or another. Again, a good thing in my mind.   

       See? Doctorremulac3; the bloodthirsty, hate mongering capitalist with a heart of gold.   

       You know, with all the debate and arguing, has anybody once ever changed their mind on something discussed here? I doubt it.   

       I know I won't be the first to crack! ;)
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       For lack of perfect information I suppose? Propaganda created by the creator of said poor service? Religion?   

       Godwin's law needs a corollary: any discussion remotely touching on social democratic ideas will eventually invoke comparisons between capitalism and the Soviet Union.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       //your argument//
My what now?
calum, Dec 14 2015
  

       // I'm not sure how the private system that gives poor service could possibly hope to survive. Why would they continue to use it? If you're going to pay more for something it has to be a lot better than the equivalent free service no?//   

       Interesting point. There are advantages to private healthcare, including things like faster access to consultants for non-urgent things; and more luxurious hospital accommodation; and of course "cosmetic" treatments such as breast enlargements (which are only available on the NHS in extreme cases).   

       However, the NHS's purpose is to provide all necessary healthcare for all people to a high standard, and to be free at the point of care. It is paid for by each according to their means - i.e. through taxes which relate to income. It generally does work very well, especially for a government-led organization. It also provides free healthcare for UK citizens travelling elsewhere in the EU, by a complicated reimbursement system (government-to- government), even if the host country doesn't have free healthcare.   

       Meanwhile, new treatments are developed by a combination of government-funded research and private companies, and this generally works well: most of the top-revenuing drugs in the world originated in the UK or depend on technology licensed from the UK*.   

       (In fact, 5 of the top ten revenuers [Humira, Remicade, Rituxan, Avastin and Herceptin] depend on technology invented by my former boss and licensed out by the UK-MRC - a government-funded body.)
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       You know, this is embarrassing on my part that I missed this enough to not ask it:   

       Do Europeans think we don't have medical care for the poor in America? I'm sorry, I should rephrase that, do SOME Europeans etc.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //You know, with all the debate and arguing, has anybody once ever changed their mind on something discussed here? I doubt it.//   

       Doubt away. Yes. It has happened. I am living proof.   

       This didn't use to be such an entrenched debate zone.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       Ray, you're decrying the debates that have ALWAYS been part of this site? They why are you joining in?   

       This idea was a political post about a political figure so the associated commentary is probably going to be political. What are we supposed to discuss? The part where she feeds squirrels with the pieces of the effigy of Trump's face?   

       And can we please stop posting the equivalent of "Will everybody who disagrees with me shut up!"
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Yes [MB] that's all well and good, for what little “facts and evidence” are worth in an argument like this, but, as, earlier, mentioned, above, systems, like this, are run by //hive mind socialists// who //want to erase hope//. By defending the system, you sound suspiciously like one of them. Shame on you!
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015
  

       No, the distribution of wealth is run by hive mind socialists. Don't give them credit for medicine and science. The advances in these areas come from free markets and free minds.   

       And yes, there is a great deal of negativity from these people.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //I should rephrase that, do SOME Europeans etc.// I am sure //some// think that, but a small number of people believe all kinds of strange things, such as that you can democratically reform a war-torn country using airstrikes.   

       No, most people over here who have thought about it, think that your system is inefficient and corrupt, that you spend a higher proportion of your money on healthcare for overall worse service. Whether that's a true thought I leave to others to illustrate.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015
  

       //free markets and free minds// neither exists.
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015
  

       I do like the way you jumped behind Max and said "He's insulting you! Let's get 'em!"
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //Ray, you're decrying the debates that have ALWAYS been part of this site? //   

       I've been here a few years longer than you. I've seen the debates. I've been a party to them. The key difference then was the debaters knew when to say when. And most often, the fights were the exception.   

       I've known the good people who left when the spirit of it changed, rather annoyed by it all.   

       When it comes down to 'The west is great, rah rah, all collectivists want is for you to lose'   

       then it's simply time to pack it in because you've entered Breitbartland.   

       There's argumentation for the purposes of trying to win or trying to appear smart, and then there's knowing your audience.   

       I don't want everyone who disagrees to shut up. I just want you to. Just for now. Just on this one post.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       Again, a generalization, an insult and no substantial point.   

       //a small number of people believe all kinds of strange things, such as that you can democratically reform a war-torn country using airstrikes.//   

       Well, with Germany and Japan it took land troops as well.   

       Hey, how do you tap out of these arguments? This chain is getting boring.   

       Deal: As far as chains that I've been a part of, anybody can post their last words on the subject without rebuttal from me because I need to go actually get something done today. Ray, Poc, etc. The floor is exclusively yours. Have a great day and thank you for the stimulating discussion. We didn't change each other's minds this time, maybe next eh?   

       Cheers.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       //Do Europeans think we don't have medical care for the poor in America? //   

       I think most Europeans believe that the US has a healthcare system for the very poorest - but that nobody who isn't very poor would use it. That differs from the UK system, where most people use the NHS that they (most of them) pay for through taxes.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  

       There are some good things about that system.   

       Gotta go.
doctorremulac3, Dec 14 2015
  

       Cheers.
RayfordSteele, Dec 14 2015
  

       Anyway, what do you all think about Donald Trump?
pocmloc, Dec 14 2015
  

       Who?   

       I did once try clay pigeon shooting, though. Hit about 50 of them in a row. Then some smartarse started launching them with some sort of catapult, which made it much harder.
MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 14 2015
  
      
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