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Ultimate Motor Vehicle

Three wheel Car - Gyroplane - Jet Boat
  (+2, -9)(+2, -9)
(+2, -9)
  [vote for,

This is utopia for a true motor sport recreational vehicle.

Picture a T-rex with three wheel electric drive using Siemens ecorner electric motor in wheels. The wheels will retract like www.watercar.com

Buildout the bottom hull like a gibbs quadraski. The back would have a water jet - and retracting 3rd drive wheel

A ducted fan.is built into the back monocoque shell above the drive wheel and on top would be a retracting gyro ie. www.palv.com

All of the electric drive motors would be 25KW motors. Three wheels all time drive, water jet impeller and ducted fan.

Body would be a carbon fiber monocoque with a simple and strong triangle frame to support the drive wheels and rotor.

Now the powerplant. Flywheel battery / gyro stabalizer ie. seagyro.com with 100KWh of storage and ultracapacitor bank to regenerate power and provide burst. No batteries just ultracapacitors and flywheel. 1 minute charge time.

The estimated specs:

Total weight of 765lb. Capacity: 4

As a high performance three wheel car: 0-60 in 3 seconds 0-100 in 6 seconds Top Speed 150Mph Range: 1000 miles

On Sea as a jet boat Top speed 60Mph 60Mph Range 600 miles

In Air: Top Speed 200Mph Range: 2000 miles.

Some unique features.

On Land: Three wheel drive allows for planing and skating on any two wheels. Sophisticated hydraulics and three wheel drive allow for off roading as the wheels can retract 12 inches.

On Sea the ducted fan can be used in marshes and areas that are not waterjet friendly.

Interior: Fly by wire joystick. Lets face it the steering wheel and column have to go as many new drivers are more accustomed to a joystick.

Airlock doors and seating for 4 . (No engine, no transmission, and everything is contained in the hull.

Computerized everything and the car tunes to the driver.

The monoque is built wrapping a pvc pipe frame and sealed foam core which allows all electrical and ventilation to be built right inside the chassis / body. The PVC frame would provide a crash barrier and absorb most impact loads. the monocoque carries the load.. total weight of frame / body under 200lbs.

Lighting would be tricky as you would need auto, marine and aircraft lighting.

Some enhancements to present technology. the jet impeller an ducted fan are hubless vortex style allowing for a open center to move the highest volume of air and water. The side blades are computer controlled and adjust in and out to optimize thrust.

Sensors galore... 1000+ calculations a second autoadjusting everything ...

The autogyro rotor has a 10Kw motor to spin it up for jump starts and while in air are set to regenerate mode to control the speed and generate power. The airfoil angle is computer controlled and adjustabe to maximize lift and minimize rotational speed. theoretically should be able to exceed 200mph up to 330mph as long as the tips remain subsonic.

Relatively inexpensive to make. Three electric motor wheels Hydraulics Autogyro rotor Waterjet Ducted Fan.

Best company to bring this to market is Bombadier as they already make the spyder and seadoo's. Just combine them and add a gyro. $50k retail for a land - sea - air vehicle is a bargain.

This motorsport vehicle has opensource software and can be fully modified by the end user. Tune the suspension, try the ducted fan for boost. preset drive modes. Race, Luxury, Economy.

As it is sold as a three wheeler It is classified a motorcycle cutting out all of the govt bs.

Consumer warning notice: This motorcraft will likely cause death. no warranties expressed or implied. Assemble and use at your own risk.

Well there you have it. A Sports car/bike, Airboat Jetboat Autogyro

All in one tight package than you can take: On road to the track off road on water in air in snow.

Someone build a 1/4 scale r/c model fast!

Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

watercar http://www.watercar.com
Amphibuous Watercar [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Seagyro http://www.seagyro.com
gyro stabalizer / flywheel battery [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

T-rex http://go-t-rex.com
t-rex three wheel car / bike [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Quadski http://www.gibbstec...acentre/quadski.php
Quadski jetski / atv [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

XR3 Hybrid http://rqriley.com/xr3.htm
XR3 Hybrid Kit [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Palv flying carver http://www.sparkdesign.nl/
Vapor right now... [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Carter Gyro http://www.cartercopters.com
Carter Gyros [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Professor Pat Pending's Ring-a-Ding Convert-a-Car http://www.hotink.com/wacky/
Scroll down; he's No. 3 [Ned_Ludd, Sep 13 2007]

My subsequent re-interpretation http://i88.photobuc...BetterMousetrap.jpg
Note that it actually does catch mice... [Ned_Ludd, Sep 13 2007]

Bombadier Can-Am Spyder http://spyder.brp.com
Spyder $15K [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

HydraSpyder http://hydraspyder.com
Amphibuous Car / RV / etc. [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Siemens Electric Motor in wheel http://www.youtube....watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y
Siemens VDO ecorner motor and suspension in wheel. [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

e-Traction http://www.e-traction.com/TheWheel.htm
Electric wheel motors and specs [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

UFO Autogyro http://www.ufo-helithruster.com/
Cool kit gyro bit pricey... [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Hawk 5 gyro http://www.groenbros.com/hawk5.php
Large 5 seat gyro [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Hybrid Technologies http://www.hybridte...rbon_fiber_supercar
Hybrid specs using 75kw to drive 2300lb car [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

PML Flight link motors http://www.pmlfligh...hive/news_mini.html
PML Mini cooper and new Volvo's [Shapharian, Sep 13 2007]

Electric T-rex http://www.silenceinc.ca/accueilEN.htm
Electric T-Rex 1/3 of the way there ;) [Shapharian, Sep 16 2007]

Video of e-trex http://youtube.com/...E&mode=user&search=
You can hear the flywheel [Shapharian, Sep 16 2007]

SAM http://www.cree.ch/
Another 3 wheel electric [Shapharian, Sep 16 2007]

Flying Hovercraft http://www.hovercra..._page=19xrw_gallery
damn cool [Shapharian, Sep 16 2007]

Hovercraft Kit Pricelist http://www.hovercra...b/kits/18spw_pl.pdf
[Shapharian, Sep 17 2007]

Gyroplane Stablity http://video.google...3094889465571781052
Video of gyroplane stability [raytork, Dec 26 2007]


       72 vette stingray. 454, side pipes and a little chrome pokin' through the hood. Nothing better.
the dog's breakfast, Sep 13 2007

       I think I drew a design for one of these about 20 years ago. Never got it published or patented though. Probably because I ran out of red crayola and then had to go to assembly.
theleopard, Sep 13 2007

       Now thats funny ;)   

       I know the land and sea part is easily doable... the autogyro doesn't seem that much of a stretch.
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       No. [the dog's breakfast]'s version is more the right idea. I'd like my 454 in a 'Chain Gang' Frazer-Nash, though.   

       But wait a minute. Three wheels? Land/water/air amphibiousness? Professor Pat Pending's Ring-a-Ding Convert-a-Car! [link]
Ned_Ludd, Sep 13 2007

       Well Sticking a 454 engine in this thing kills the weight ;). I'll take the 90KG gyro / flywheel and ultracapacitors to keep it all electric. 765lbs and 100hp should suffice getting this thing off the line.
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       I think that Q may be along in a minute with some nerf munitions.
skinflaps, Sep 13 2007

       The ribbing is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling deep down you guys really like the idea. Love that ring-a-ding... damn patent pending ;(
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       Welcome to the HB, [Shapharian]!
Ned_Ludd, Sep 13 2007

       I think a 1/8 or 1/4 scale r/c model would be worth the effort. I was looking at a video of the GM hy-wire and realized the entire interior is open and free. instead of tadpoleing the back wheel you can flare the body out and squeeze 4 inside. appoximate dimensions would be 6' wide and 12' long with interior space of 6x9. thats a lot of room to play with.   

       Maybe just build the hull / drive system and let people bolt on the passenger compartment of thier own design. Make the gyro an option but the water jet would be a blast to drive around in.   

       People are retrofitting all sorts of cars to make them amphibuous. jeeps, camaro's... a foam cored hull, a jet impeller . Hell their making amphibuous motor homes. http://hydraspyder.com/ so all the car/boat angles have been baked.   

       The Gyro on a light weight monocoque shell would be sweet.
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       [Ned_Ludd], love the drawing!
k_sra, Sep 13 2007

       This is answering a question nobody asked. Not even the US Marines need this vehicle.   

       You won't get an autogyro to 200 mph, not in a vehicle that isn't designed specifically for high-speed autogyro flight. Your concept is a melange of purposes, and the compromises you make to achieve function in one medium will reduce performance in the others.   

       The flywheel won't take you very far, and the ultracaps won't take you very far, either. Pair them together, and they won't take you very far, coupled with the flywheel making your aircraft unnecessarily heavy. You can have a plenty powerful engine for 90kg, and fuel to run it for many miles for just 10kg more. The control circuitry for the ultracaps is beyond my conception, so I won't comment on them, but I can say this: get it wrong and it goes up in a flash - a big one - of the fourth state of matter.
elhigh, Sep 13 2007

       Actually Carter copters have designed gyros that can fly up to 500Mph and solved the supersonic tip speed issue by using wings and slowing the tips to 100mph. my solution was to use a generator to control the rotor tip speed and make more electricity. The airfoil can be adjusted by the computers for optimize lift etc.   

       Hell even if it only goes 100 mph i'm happy cause i'm off the ground.   

       Obviously the power requirements can adapt and use any thing. I thought the flywheel would be useful as it stores energy and is a computerized stabalizer asserting its precission forces as needed. The new composite flywheels have shown to have huge capacity (I believe 130Kw/kg) and 100KWh is tremendous capacity...   

       The ultracapacitors are used to provide quick charge and capture regenrative energy.. ie. braking it will also provide instant acceleration. In terms of electrical response - Capacitors are like computer memory cache just used for full and fast responses to loads.   

       Keeping everything electric we can use any gas generator to run at maximum efficiency to charge the flywheel. http://www.geocities.com/ dfradella/homepage.htm   

       Yep I want it all... Fly, Drive, Boat, maybe I should throw a hovercraft skirt and motor into the mix ;)
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       I really like this siemens VDO ecorner wheel technology. Anyone know anything more about this? http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       [Shapharian] welcome to the hb. Please keep all of your links within the provided link facility which you have been using, it makes it a lot easier for others to see rather than cut 'n' pasting.(no need to add them as part of anno's or ideas.)You may easily remove these via the edit function.
skinflaps, Sep 13 2007

       NP. Interesting US regulations...   

       Three wheel motorcycles are provided lots of flexibility compared to 4 wheel vehicles.   

       No windshield, no seatbelts, no emmissions, no mirrirs, no turn signals really just a front light and brake light.   

       Experimental Gyros can be flown under 4,000 without flightplan, Boats need to be registered. I guess you would need plates and registration for each form of transportation... maybe you can get by on just one? Who the hell is going to insure this contraption? Would you need three seperate insurance policies or just motorcycle insurance.   

       If your flying and you crash is it a driving accident? if you crash on water a boating accident?
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       Lets just do a bit of math. 100kwh worth of storage. 3x25kw motors is 75kw of power(about 100 horsepower btw). Lets estimate a 50% duty cycle. So you have 37.5kw continuous, or a hair over 2.5 hours worth of power. I don't think you are going very far. Maybe 100km. Not 1000.
Galbinus_Caeli, Sep 13 2007

       The 25K motors are peak. 80% regenerative efficiency. I've also learned the 80% efficiency is due mostly to throwout energy as batteries can not take the complete charge at once... hence the ultracapacitors.   

       Obviously you can't run them at peak. On open roads steady driving the computer will switch to one wheel drive. It's all on how you program the car.   

       On a long highway stretch of steady driving the ducted fan can propel the car too. No idling losses, most efficient propulsion light weight. i guessed 20% cause i rarely floor my car and if i do its only for a few seconds.   

       Tuned for racing is another story. Everything is on and pushing.   

       One of the interesting things about flywheels is they take less energy to keep spinning at higher revolutions than the energy to start it up. The power efficiencies for putting power into the flywheel and taking it out is close to 95% which is amazing. I think they pulse the flywheel based on its frequency.   

       There are 4 main regenerating motors. the wheels and the gyro rotor. There is some recapture driving and flying but On water you've got what you start with and thats about it.   

       Doing a little more research the most efficient impellers and fans have a open core and are close tipped pushing and swirling air and water in a vortex through the center versus catching spinning and pushing to te outside. unfortunately everyone wants to turn a drive shaft requiring mucho torque.   

       The wheels have outside rotors requiring less force for the same torque. The ducted fan is hubless and not axial on the same principle, same with the waterjet.   

       This is all conceptual as I really don't know the efficiencies of the siemen wheels nor have I tried running a open hub impeller off of a electric motor.   

       If a R/C scaled model can be built proportional to size, weight and power than a full sized version whould operate closely.   

       I'm hoping te rudder inside the ducted fan will provide control if not I'll have to add a tractor prop on the gyro instead or in addition to the ducted fan.   

       Company called e-traction has some good info on e-motors - regeneration on city buses.   

       I'm inspired to atleast build a model now and see if it sinks, crashes or actually have merit.
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       Where on earth did the 'estimated specs' come from? Nowhere constrained by earthly physics.
Texticle, Sep 13 2007

       250nm per wheel and the duct fan pushing thrust. Ultra capcitors make 100kw available instantly and there is no delay in torque... all power is immediately available. All together there is 75kw in the wheel and 25kw of air being pushed off the line. 133hp pushing 800 lbs. at 95% efficiency.   

       Estimated is truly Vapor as of now but do indulge for a moment.   

       Monocoque chassis weight using 150sq ft carbon fiber / kevlar / pvc foam core and Epoxy resin: 150lbs. (forumula 1 monocoque's shells weight 185lbs and this is half the size). Aluminum triangle Frame for flight support 25 lbs. 60lbs per wheel and motor x 3 = 180lbs. rotor 44lbs rotor starter motor 10 lbs. and ducted fan 46 lbs. Water jet and impeller 25lbs. 100kwh gyro flywheel and stablizer 200lbs. about 765lbs trimmed out. Marine frp interior.   

       Low weight and off the line you have computerized three wheel drive pushing 75kw 100hp motors with full torque and a ducted fan blowing 25kw of thrust.   

       There really is nothing to this vehicle except a composite shell, a flywheel, 3 wheels drive with integrated suspension and steering, 1 retractable gyro rotor, 1 ducted fan, 1 water jet fully synchronized and managed by computer. A big fly by wire r/c vehicle powered by a special gyro stabalizing flywheel.   

       7 electric motors to drive,fly and boat and under a 800lbs.   

       But like i said... all techno babble vapor nonsense until its really put down on paper and a model is made. I can't rely on anyones specs on the web as being true or not. The estimates can be way off but I have this warm fuzzy feeling that this is a fun project to burn some cash and time on.
Shapharian, Sep 13 2007

       You're conveniently forgetting your own "specs" at opportune points to make your other "facts" work out.   

       You aren't going to get this thing off the ground with your motors running the prop at 20%. An autogyro is a high drag/lift design and you're going to need every erg your motors can generate for liftoff. Granted, you can back off once airborne, but consider: Bensen's 8M Gyrocopter had a fully-loaded weight of 550 lbs, and specified an engine of about 80kW. You're loading heavier, while powering with less. I can't believe getting 200 mph. Here's why:   

       Regardless of whether you have access to Carter Aviation's technology, you can't make drag go away. Running any aircraft at speed is a high-load flight envelope. Typical aircraft cruising power is anywhere from 60-75% of powerplant maximum output: about 45-55kW. Your flywheel either weighs 90kg as you described - plus another 40kg in vacuum containment and sophisticated bearings - or the flywheel and its containment weigh a combined 90kg. For your sake, we'll assume it's the former and I'll even neglect the containment to keep things simple.   

       100kWh really does provide some useful range - if you actually can get 200 mph out of 55kW (assuming no losses in the power conversion equipment, whose mass and volume I haven't mentioned until this point), you'll get 360 miles. This assumes many quantum leaps of advancement in the lift-drag profiles of rotorcraft, since the lowest-drag powered aircraft I've ever heard of is the Quickie Q-200, which tops out at about 200mph on a 75kW engine. That's with very small wings, not a rotor, to hold it up. The fuselage of the Q is tiny, to reduce frontal area. You'll need that on yours, too.   

       Yours can't be small, though. The flywheel containment - and I can't neglect this - is almost as big as the entire passenger compartment would be. Seriously. And the bearings are intended for a containment that precesses through the compass at the rate of 15 degrees per hour. You're asking as much as 15 degrees per second. So the support structure is going to have to be fully gimballed on top of being very strong and as frictionless as possible.   

       In the event of a crash the containment is likely to rupture. All that energy is going to go somewhere, very possibly in the form of a rotor burst. I put the rim speed of a fully charged 50Krpm flywheel at more than Mach 1 for any diameter over 5". I reckon the minimum safe distance around a crash would be around a half-mile.   

       None of this addresses the fact you also want this thing to float and drive. Right now I'm assuming optimization for air operation. That means minimal drag: tiny landing wheels, a longish shape for stability, minimal weight, etc.   

       Land operation wants bigger wheels for a smoother ride, an actual suspension on the wheels, maybe a little more weight for stability in crosswinds, etc.   

       Water operation wants no wheels at all. Like air operation, if you want to get anywhere today, you're going to need some decent power delivery. The flywheel can provide it, but it's in the form of electricity. We're back to adding weight and complexity to waterproof the motors and circuitry.   

       Your statements regarding impellers hubbed and hubless are intriguing. Whatever else you do, by the action of the fan, the air will be flung to the edge. Running it inside a duct or having the fan wear a rim is a very smart thing to do, but the hub provides nothing thrustwise, so your opposition to using it for driving the fan is what? Of course it will require torque to run the shaft - it will also require torque to turn the fan via its rim, so this argument leaves me dumbfounded. Not to mention, transmission products for shaft drive are many, varied and proven. Your idea, while unique, is unproven and not what I want under me at speed in the air. You will already have shafts running the wheels for your land vehicle, might as well stick to what works.   

       You can't take your favorite features of the Bombardier and Carter Aviation line of products, bake them up like a pizza and just pick off the bits you don't like.
elhigh, Sep 14 2007

       Fishbone for using 'ultimate' in the title.
DrBob, Sep 14 2007

       Well admit the specs are questionable.   

       The open hub impellers and propellers have vains along the tip ring that can flare and adjust to push the water and air through the open hub. The idea was this swirling flow could be optimized and its freiquency managed.   

       A controlled tornado of sorts which may be more efficient and move a large volume with a vacuum suction type effect. There are some interesting effects of vortex flow as the center flow is at higher speed and the inside edge of the ducted fan would be at a lower pressure with less friction.   

       The idea was to have sensors monitor and manage the frequency of this vortex effect for maximum flow. The vains are not fixed and can slightly adjust their angle and height to effect flow.   

       a 48" carbon fiber ducted fan with cf vanes that can flare from 6" to 18". Curved petals that are constantly managed magnetically in synch with the sensors.   

       a 6" impeller housing a 2" - 4" adjustable vortex vane with an open center to swirl the water out.   

       For low speeds the vanes are extended leaving a 2" opening to push water through maximizing pressure flow and gradually opening wide and letting more volume through to increase speed.   

       Look at it this way. Traditional impellers and propellers have to push everything to the sides. The open hub will have a vacuum flow effect pulling and accelerating through at a higher pressure contained by the lower pressure swirling flow.   

       Flywheel containment was a issue at first but the latest test of Composite flywheels established upon failure they disintegrate back to fibers. The magnets are the issue and they too are contained in a composite containment enclosure.   

       Thought long and hard about the gimbal mechanism. By using the gyro stabalizer model the flywheel is attached to the vehicle and has three axis electro neumatic motion controller that regenerates power and manages the gyroscopic effects. Mounted to the monocoque it provides sea stabalization, smoother drive and flight.   

       The wheels can retract down for flight and tuck up for water play like the watercar.com. Simple low rider hydraulics. The motor brakes, dampers, steering and springs are all conatined in the wheel on the siemens evo and look like they just bolt on to the hyrdaulic lifters and plug in.   

       The Hull of a jet boat and bottom of a plane are not to dissimiliar. Jet boat wants to get on plane quickly too.   

       Just the current rev of ideas. some one else suggested both a tractor fan and ducted pusher
Shapharian, Sep 14 2007

       I've often wondered why it is that an idea that appears to be close to a realizable design will attract more criticism than something which is an obvious flight of fancy (Hullaballoon, anyone?).   

       Maybe trying to prove mathematically that something won't work makes you look clever, whereas picking holes in an ethereal piece of fantasy just makes you look whiny. I guess it boils down to how an idea is presented.
egbert, Sep 14 2007

       Hey.. It's a bit fantasy and i profess the math is based on scattered specs online with various inconsistencies.   

       I'm not too sure i would want to test drive / fly / boat the first few iterations but year two... if i'm still alive sign me up.   

       I'm pretty sure it can be built pretty reasonably for the body, motors,gyro and core components... The gyro stabalizing flywheel battery is a bit pricey right now and the open source software would have to be made.   

       Reality check would be to simply build and sell r/c scaled model versions so the software can be developed. Everything would be virtually identical between the real mccoy and the r/c and could at least get a core group working together and improving the idea.   

       As the models develop and bugs are fixed a few version 1 prototypes can be built. After losing 4 or 5 test pilots the bugs can be worked out and new and improved can be released.   

       Not for the mass market but nice diy kits on a somewhat standardized base set of controllable components. kit components:   

       1. Monocoque hull (Designed with inbody wiring cavities, ventilation, wheel mounts etc.) 3. Wheel Hydraulics 3. Wheel Motors (10kw, 20kw, 30kw, 40kw) models 1. DC Bus and electronics Controller (Memory card) 1. Fly by wire controller (wireless joystick, wheel, ps2 etc. controls your model and the real mccoy) 1. Water Car Option (motor impeller bus connection software driver) 1. AutoGyro Option Rotor Frame, Starter motor and prop Ducted Fan. Power packs:   

       Of course if this is truly open source than many can make improvements, modifications and release compatable components.   

       Different bodies. Original idea was to just build a base hull that anyone could design a bolt on passenger compartment. aka gm hy-wire.   

       Improved motors, Improved software Experimental rotors, fans Pimp my ride interiors. Tricks - 2 wheel skate - James Bond paint gun bumper Sensors   

       Hell they have all of this stuff already available for 1/8 scale r/c's. Just make the scale 1/1 ;)   

       If you think nascar is cool imagine the racing that can develop with these things.   

       First one over the canyon through the lake over the desert and to Vegas wins.   

       Yeah the ideas out there but you've got to admit it would be a cool toy for the boys.
Shapharian, Sep 14 2007

       /After losing 4 or 5 test pilots /   

       Heh. Good to see you've done a risk analysis.
egbert, Sep 14 2007

       "Regardless of whether you have access to Carter Aviation's technology, you can't make drag go away. Running any aircraft at speed is a high-load flight envelope. Typical aircraft cruising power is anywhere from 60-75% of powerplant maximum output: about 45-55kW. Your flywheel either weighs 90kg as you described - plus another 40kg in vacuum containment and sophisticated bearings - or the flywheel and its containment weigh a combined 90kg. For your sake, we'll assume it's the former and I'll even neglect the containment to keep things simple"   

       Here is just an idea with some big assumptions. 1. Getting to take off speed is easy cause the three wheels are powered. 2. We have a retracting mechanism to cover the wheel wells as a jet boat. Maybe they can be made to rotate out as little lift wings for high speed flight.   

       To achieve higher speeds the gyro could become regenerative to slow the tips or feathered. A feathered gyro is probably a bad idea that we will need to waste a test pilot or two trying.   

       Maybe adding a tractor prop or having two ducted fans side by side may improve thrust. I'm hoping the hubless design with rotor vains and stator duct could support pulsing to maximize rpm's.   

       It would be weird having to u nfeather your rotor and retract your lift wings in order to lower your landing gear.
Shapharian, Sep 15 2007

       [egbert] Detailed ideas get picked apart for two reasons. First they have more details to pick at, and second the detailed ideas tend to be more "serious" rather than "whimisical". Also the detailed ideas tend to be much more complicated. [Shapharian] here has taken a whole bunch of stuff that he admits he doesn't fully understand, and bolted it together into something that he seems to feel strongly about.   

       You will notice that the picking apart here tends to stick to technical aspects. We are not abusing his/her vision, just the practicality of the application.   

       And on that note. [Shapharian] how do you plan to gyrostabilize a flywheel (which is a 90kg gyroscope)? Are you going to pair it up with a second, counter rotating one?   

       Oh, and you seem to be confused on the concept of regeneration. Regeneration only happens when you are slowing your vehicle back down. Not in steady travel. A flying machine spends very little time in deceleration. Most of the time it is cruising along at 70%-90% power. Power Minus Drag Equals Speed (kinda) so the cruising speed of an aircraft tends to be as fast as the aircraft can go without causing undue wear on the power plant.   

       Just to repeat my earlier concern about your power supply. You have 100kwh on board. That is equivalent to about 28 MegaJoules, or a bit more than the potential energy in a half kilogram of gasoline (45 MJ/KG), which you could carry in a water bottle.
Galbinus_Caeli, Sep 15 2007

       I admit these power figures and estimates are really SWAG and may be way off the mark. All dialogue is good and trip new ideas.   

       Well as I see it 1kwh is 3.6MJ and 100kwh would be around 360MJ which pound for pound is damn close to Gasoline but allegedly with 98% roundtrip efficiency.   

       Composites flywheels allegedly disintegrate into their fiber form if exploded from impact and as a system should have enough sensors to shut itself down.   

       The seagyro and other gyro ship stabalizing systems use electro linear shocks and are a gimbal of sorts but allowing the precission forces to be managed by applying energy to position the gyro or regenerate and absorb energy opposing movement.   

       seakeeper.com/gyro.html is another one and ferrettigroup.com build them for luxury yachts. Mitsubishi makes them and has some patents.   

       There seems to be alot of govt $$$ by nasa and the military in composite flywheel energy systems.   

       My thoughts were this would not only provide power but a smoother ride and complete body control. aka a 3d motion simulator. I picture a 450mm x 450mm cube power pack attached directly to the stiff monocoque body.   

       I was thinking the autogyro rotor would have a starter motor that would manage and slow down tip speed at higher speeds to the minimum required to maintain lift generating some power. A flying wind generator of sorts.   

       From what Carter Aviation implies the problem with higher speeds in an autogyro is the rotor tips go supersonic. If small flight wings can maintain lift then more power can be generated by loading and slowing the rotor. I'm sure we'll burn a few test pilots getting the kinks worked out on this one.   

       Now how do we get sponsirs and buy in to start building?
Shapharian, Sep 15 2007

       Ok, you are right on your MJ to KWH conversion, sorry, I dropped a decimal and had a bad conversion. But you are still in the not very much power range. 360MJ is equal to about eight kilograms of gasoline. A bit under two gallons. More than I thought, but still not much. 90kg of avgas would give you about 4000MJ.   

       And if you are sucking power out of your rotor, you are going to have to put it back in with your impeller. Just like you can't run an electric car by putting a windmill on the roof.   

       You also get no bonus for "roundtrip efficiency" because you are using up all your energy just to push air to the side while you are moving.   

       But if you can find investors, take their money. They don't deserve to keep it.
Galbinus_Caeli, Sep 15 2007

       //Just like you can't run an electric car by putting a windmill on the roof.//   

       Oh. So I've spent the last three years in my shed for nothing?
jtp, Sep 15 2007

       Well this idea is 1/3 baked now...   

       silencein.ca is selling an electric t-rex with a high pitched whining flywheel. 900lbs 140mph cool video. electricbw.ca has got some nice info,.   

       "AC motor, Peak power: 78KW (98 H.P.), Torque: 252NM (185 lb-ft), 8 000 RPM, (USA, made motor) No transmission, like an automatic, no shifting required!"   

       Checkout the hoverwing at hovercraft.com... tell me you can't combine these.   

       Question for anyone with real experience with these things. The hovercraft rides an airpocket powered by a ducted fan. 55mph using a small lawnmower motor.   

       Is it feasible to have the three wheels just produce enough power to counter drag and provide steering, braking and ride control powered by the thrust of the fan?   

       It would seem to be a really efficient propulsion method that could be managed by computer and sensors.
Shapharian, Sep 16 2007

       //The 25K motors are peak. 80% regenerative efficiency// Autogyros don't do an awful lot of braking. [-]
Maybe you could fuel it with fishbones.
coprocephalous, Sep 16 2007

       Okay, how about a big brotherly compromise.   

       What if we take a 19XRW Hoverwing from: http://www.hovercraft.com /content/index.php? main_page=19xrw_gallery   

       A few Minor modifications ;) Make the wings fold, Slap on a gyro rotor and add three electric retracting wheels under the hovercraft base to make it a on road steerable/braking "motorcycle" instead of trailering.   

       Keep the gas engines and pimp it out... Using all existing and proven technology. Estimated cost $40,000 and 300 hours to build this kit.   

       You end up with a big flying boat that you can party on a lake with and drive home.   

       18' 6" x 7' 6" 850lb's and room for 6.   

       75mph on water, road and in air stock. Maybe squeeze 100mph on air with the gyro flyable.   

       Fast enough for weekend fun and less risky as it would be version 2.
Shapharian, Sep 17 2007

       Not commenting. Don't have time to research, but at first blush looks better. Going out of town, but did not want to leave you hanging. Keep halfbaking, you will get it.
Galbinus_Caeli, Sep 17 2007

       [Shapharian], if I had the imagination to post something like this, I'd avoid mentioning the price. Not necessarily because you're suggesting an unreasonably low price, but because too many people before you have done just that: "Let's build a moon rocket from cheese, I think it would cost $5 and would be a bargain." Gadgets this vehicle, to my mind, are more about the idea than the market, so the price doesn't matter so much.
david_scothern, Sep 17 2007

       Good Point, Just a ballpark based on hovercraft's published pricelist: http://www.hovercraft.com/ content/pub/kits/ 18spw_pl.pdf   

       18SPW Easy-Build Kit with 150 hp EJ-22 engine (includes wing, hull, hardware and drive kit upgrade, Variator, pre-fab hull upgrade, finished skirt, pre-molded lift duct, finished thrust duct, finished prop and fan, engine with pre-built engine mount, wiring harness, gauge package, accessory package, and joystick kit) $23,476.99   

       I'd say the oven is on pre-heat ;)   

       I wonder if it could be made all electric since we' are just powering two fan's, the cabin electronics. The wheels would be much smaller and used primarlily for steering, acceleration, regenerative braking / on road drive control.   

       I envision a "On Road" button that would lower the wheels to the ground while the skirt and fan still provided lift. In this case the aircushion would still carry 90% of the weight load. The pusher fan would provide a majority of the thrust and the wheels would steer, accelerate, brake and frictional control to drive on road.   

       The stock skirt provides an 8" air cushion so maybe 10" - 12" wheels would suffice. Never really gave much thought at using wheels purely for drag.
Shapharian, Sep 17 2007

       You're leaving your original concept farther and farther behind.   

       I have fishboned myself when I thought an idea through further, and I recommend you consider that option now.
elhigh, Sep 18 2007

       Yeah. The lone bun up there looks mighty sus.
the dog's breakfast, Sep 18 2007

       Kind of the difference between utopia and reality eh? Option 1 requires some new inventions... a lot of dough and lots of engineering. Option 2 is available today and just needs to be tweaked and modified.   

       Original Idea was to have a land, sea and air vehicle electrically powered with range.   

       The hovercraft will outperform the waterjet. a gyro with wings will outperform a gyro with no wings. Road performance is unknown.   

       While having fast 0-60 and high top end speeds on road soothes the ego. I question why would i want to have such power constrained to pavement and risk encountering certain officials wanting to limit and fine such engineering marvels.   

       Take it off road, on water, in air and be free. Option 2 is an evolution of the idea to reality of something that can be realized and built today by your average mechanically inclined joe.
Shapharian, Sep 18 2007

       Thanks for churning this one [shaparian], I forgot to bone it earlier.
AbsintheWithoutLeave, Sep 18 2007

       I would bun thus for tenacity, that's if I hadn'ty jest brokan ml kefyboortd.(%]
skinflaps, Sep 18 2007

       "Take it to the air and water and be free?" You imagine that there are no governing bodies for these operating regimes?   

       You HAVE noticed those numbers on the airplanes, right? They aren't there because they're pretty. Same goes for boats.   

       You can get ticketed for speeding on the water around here, and I can only guess at how many different regulations there are for flying. Wander into the wrong airspace, and it's more than just a ticket. I live in some of the prettiest flying country in America, which is unfortunately quite close to Oak Ridge. Overflights will get you a fast ride to the Slammer.
elhigh, Sep 19 2007

       Good Point...   

       Looks like you'll need motorcycle, Coast guard and Gyroplane tags and insurance. What exactly happened to the land of the free?
Shapharian, Sep 19 2007

       One problem is inherent instability likely in any such design. The center of mass is likely to be way too low to allow for even static stability in flight.
raytork, Dec 25 2007

       I'm intrigued by that comment [raytork]. Surely, if your centre of gravity is well below your centre of pressure, you get high stability, as with a pendulum?
david_scothern, Dec 25 2007

       Added stability link. Oriented towards the beginner.
raytork, Dec 26 2007


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