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Co-Entropy Hop theory

Secondary states of order more common than total chaos
  [vote for,

[edited a bit, but not changing anything significantly]

The following is about restricting the second law of thermodynamics to the macro world of ambient heat and perhaps up to 200(forgot, what's the ascii for deg)C and to propose, according to statistics, some other behavior may be expected at higher temperatures.

Statistically "complete disorder" is only one part in the full pool of possibilities, and is actually an order in itself.

Close to complete disorder is actually SOME sort of order. And this order, if it is sustainable through time, is a small but non negligible part of the pool of possibilities.

So, rather than understanding that we should always expect greater entropy - meaning that we should always expect the current order to dissipate into disorder (in thermodynamics this is interpreted as heat) according to the Co-Entropy Hop theory, we should always expect a change in order.

If we now have kinetic energy, some will changed to heat. If we have only heat, some will be changed to kinetic energy.

Since the world order as it is now is high in order - (even the order of heat is high - because heat is currently concentrated and not dissipated equally throughout the world), it is true that some disorder is expected, but once reaching the high disorder area, the rising entropy would stop and alternate between the other sets of order, some of which have a bit higher probability of existence and/or stability, some with a lower probability of those.

At certain levels there may be a good chance for hopping back to high levels of order, as seen in the natural world in physics and perhaps even biology.

Stability of different structures through time, may be an important factor in the understanding of their probability of existing over time, whereas appearance alone is insufficient to determine the importance of such a structure. (As an example see the study of stable or "leaky" DNA mutations).

pashute, Aug 21 2011


       Could you be more specific about what you mean by order and chaos, [pashute]?   

       For example, someone once told me about a mathematical paper written in response to theorising about "ley lines", which showed a surprisingly high probability of the emergence of apparent order in random collections of dots (i.e., a probability that some of the dots would form lines or regular polygons, not perfectly, but to within some small tolerance).   

       Would this kind of emergent apparent order count as order for the purposes of your idea, or are your standards higher than that?
pertinax, Aug 21 2011

       I see what you mean about lower "stepped" levels of disorder on the downhill road to heat death but fear that the laws of probability make it a one-way trip as the numbers are against you.   

       Localized reversal of entropy is perfectly within the laws of nature - the same as it is perfectly within the laws of nature for all air molecules in a box to randomly be in one side but not the other. It is just very, very unlikely. The bigger the box, in this example "the world", the less likely it is occur.   

       (Isn't the second law of thermodynamics the same as the first law of thermodynamics? ie "Never talk about thermodynamics.")
AusCan531, Aug 21 2011

       I'm with [AusCan] - i.e. entropy is a statistical process, and there is always a finite but small probability of finding the system "ordered".   

       I think also that entropy is not so much to do with order/disorder as it is to do with the stability of the state. To take ice/water as an example - at low temperatures, the water molecules are in a particular arrangement (ice), in a predictable and stable way. When the ice melts, the water molecules will (at any instant) be in a particular arrangement, but that arrangement is neither stable nor predictable.   

       As for biology "hopping back" to high levels of order - no. High levels of order are paid for by the input of energy which, ultimately, allows molecules to be put into particular arrangements. This energy input, in turn, leads to more entropy somewhere else (for instance, the nicely arranged atoms of the steak I eat turn into less nicely arranged molecules of CO2). Biology is just a way of pumping entropy to create a local reduction, just as a heat-pump pumps heat.
MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 21 2011

       Where did my long annotation with answer to [pertinax] go? I'll have to write a new one. The old one was clearer, shorter, sharper and more exact and therefore correct. Sorry - its gone.   

       ...Emergence: basically the answer is: Yes. That is what I meant, but also with an emphasis on thermodynamics and energy, so, at certain, non ambient conditions, I would expect to find a "hop" from one type of energy to another rather than to heat, and even spontaneous gathering of some sort of energy instead of heat, as happens in the vortex tube, and in standing waves (granted, not a frequently natural occurring phenomena), where in one area their is total freezing while energy levels rise on both sides, so that the harmonious high energy movement brings with it also total "silence".   

       [AusCan] When you talk about air in a shoe box you bring up an image to your liking. Lets talk about air in a region. No better yet, lets talk about air in shoebox in outer space, with say an Avogadro-constant number of molecules. If we could model each one of them once they reached the random state of total tranquility and lowest equilibrium temperature - what are the statistics for emerging states of typhoon like vortex "storms" which have a structure explained in various forms (especially in Chaos theory) to appear within a certain period of time (say 3 months). I claim that you would be surprised to see how much "spontanic order" emerges from the total chaos. You would be even more surprised to do the math and find that it is more than expected, and at quite a high level of appearance within a short time.   

       [Chanan] "to high levels of order - no... paid for by the input of energy..." Not true. How do you count "more". by mass? By space that the biological system takes up? By quantity of energy? Counting the mass of the sun that turns to energy aimed at earth as a finite system together with planet earth (and forgetting about the other planets) are we actually gaining entropy? Can that be proven? I suspect in can only be intuitively shown, and the same could be done to the opposite without ruining the law, if we realize it is restricted in scope.   

       I suspect that the universe, the guide and everything is not on a one way march into oblivion, or on a one way voyage into thin dust of totally non ordered random movement at some low but stable temperature gazillions of years from now. I have the feeling, and I can show scientifically and mathematically where this feeling comes from, and then perhaps others could even prove it correct, that order itself has its own level of statistics and probability.   

       If proven to be correct, the significance would be one of stable order within some borders of probability and statistics, meaning to say that today we sometimes have a feeling that nothing "can fight the statistics" and that "actions don't matter" or even that existence itself is in question.   

       My answer is that people questioning the existence of reality are playing too much on the Halfbakery or if there exist other sites, then playing on those or watching too much TV (I used to have one as a kid so I know what the concept is about).   

       A sound and well defined new part of science may be the background to help put things back into proportion.
pashute, Aug 21 2011

       Statistically speaking [pashute], you are quite correct that the likelihood of uniform and absolute tranquility for all particles occuring at the same time and for all time is vanishingly small. Your image of a shoebox of air in space is as valid as any other. More valid still is your assertion that small outbreaks of "spontanic order" are likely to occur. Indeed, I would argue along with you that they MUST occur - again statistically speaking.   

       But I would also argue that these spontaneous outbreaks of order will be like small sparks winking in and out of existence in the night. No major conflagration will occur because each upward level of increase of 'order' sought would be logarithmically less likely to occur. To mix metaphors, the gravity well of entropy is just too steep and too high.   

       This is no way means that I am one of those who question the 'existence of reality' because of this, or think that my actions don't matter and that we are all just dust in the wind. Indeed in University I once took a test examining my 'internal v. external locus of control' and my personality was found to be diametrically (disturbingly so?) opposite to that worldview. I am quite content to live my life with joy and meaning and purpose while simultaneously accepting the fact that someday I too shall slide down into the well of entropy. That is just reality. (But I'm not losing any sleep over it).
AusCan531, Aug 22 2011

       This is a call for research.   

       It is a fact there are certain patterns that ARE continuous - See the DNA and "selfish genes" - (not in the sense of Mary Midgley's interpretation of that idiom). I'm saying this after reading a textbook about genes - that randomly ended up in my hands, and turned out quite interesting reading material after 20 years out of biology classes at Hebrew U.   

       There is an interesting program at the Tel Aviv based Open University for MA in biology and multidisciplinary sciences, dealing with these topics. I'm sure it is a trend in the academic world (they are usually very conservative about developing new programs).
pashute, Aug 22 2011

       [pashute] //stable order within some borders of probability and statistics//   

       that goes along with this word list, have fun!   

       logs in a pond, amount of logs determines frequency of interaction from tight packed vibrating to sparser permitting 360 degree spinning (baton twirler), different concentrations of logs in a pond thus generate different frequencies of spins;   

       percolation theory; nonparametric statistics, wikipedia:time crystal, math models on the prevalence of boltzmann brains,   

       ice (iceberg) tesselations that recombine and fuse back together in the cold air region above the 32F water, fractal interleaved automata coperimeters.   

       if energy is so great, why do gamma rays have to travel so far between interactions? optimum absorbability of photons, of a particular frequency that causes the most change and variations in order: imaginably UV or microwave, or absorption spectra of hydrogen; hand cranked ice cream makers   

       and of course some of the new forms of time: MWI, delayed choice quantum eraser, greenshift, time crystals, universal wave function's span of moments, IT pattern time, all of these new forms of time, and newer ones people will discover and make could effect what [pashute] calls coentropy
beanangel, May 09 2021

       What? ... there's birds climbing the turtles . That's new.
wjt, May 10 2021


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