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Structured Arguments

In addition to annotations, a structured argument system for ideas.
  (+1)
(+1)
  [vote for,
against]

I'm sick of getting a stack of fishbones with no one telling me why my idea is stupid. Then, some yahoo posts a long rambling annotation that tries to say three things at once.

I propose that, in addition to the primary annotation/crossaint/fishbone system, we implement a structured argument system. After the initial idea, a person can post a criticism of that idea. One criticism per post. If you have two, make two posts. Then, if another person agrees with that criticism, they can gives crossaints to it. You can also fishbone a criticism if you think its silly or inane.

The author can then post a reply to the criticism. If people like the reply, they can crossaint it.

There is a tally for each criticism of crossaints to fishbones. That way we can tell if the author has made a sucessful rebuttal to the criticism.

Finally, there is a tally of all criticisms. That way you can tell if halfbakery folks think that the author has successfully answered all the critiques of the idea.

lawpoop, Oct 26 2003

Here ye! hear ye! - Read all about it! http://krelnik.home...g.com/half_faq.html
Courtesy of [krelnik] [Shz, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]

Overbaked http://groups.yahoo.com/group/overbaked
semi-public halfbakery overflow discussion group. [RayfordSteele, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]

[link]






       If you're sick of this site, a site that is about discussions rather than arguments, find another site.  When you get sick of that one, you can come back, this one will still be here.   

       (and yes, I read every word of your idea and this was my response.  Negative votes without comments are part and parcel of this site.  Also, my annoyance is people who assume that everyone is going to interpret their idea exactly as the author intended and then have the audacity to presume that people don't get it because they didn't read it and not because they might have a different interpretation or opinion.)
bristolz, Oct 26 2003
  

       Fishbone. Stupid idea.
lintkeeper2, Oct 26 2003
  

       Why exactly do you expect that jutta should waste her time creating this when the site is already working well with many people happy with it?   

       Try a message board, or program it yourself.
reap, Oct 26 2003
  

       // I said I was sick of fishbones without criticism. //   

       Clearly the halfbakery is not for you then.
waugsqueke, Oct 26 2003
  

       [waugs] I've got a lot of interesting insights and criticisms for several of my ideas. That's actually why I keep posting.
lawpoop, Oct 26 2003
  

       Oh, c'mon guys. Lets cut [lawpoop], as well as all the other newbies, a little bit of slack here. I'm not exactly a newbie, but I'm still new enough to sympathize with them. The learning curve for what is expected here is steep, you have to admit, and there aren't too many people that go out of their way to help all the newcomers orient themselves. At the very least, when creating an account, a new user should be directed to the "help" page and instructed to read it in its entirety, and warned that failure to do so will result in a lot of unneccesary frustration on the part of the user. I didn't find that sucker until a month in.
Overpanic, Oct 26 2003
  

       My point being, lawpoop - If you're sick of it, then you're going to have big problems here. You're going to get fishbones without explanations and there's nothing you can do about it, so get used to it.   

       Your whole thing is take a point of criticism and attack it head on to vindicate your idea, like this wins you points or something. You miss the fact that if it really was a good idea you wouldn't have to fight off so much criticism in the first place.   

       If someone has a valid critique and you have a valid response that should be all you need to do. This idea you've posted here would never even be considered at the bakery. It completely misses the point of the place anyway.
waugsqueke, Oct 26 2003
  

       Too much structure would erode the fun of the Halfbakery. As it is, it resembles a large corkboard - you can walk by and chalk a mark up for or against, or, if you have time, you can write some endless spiel and just crap on without form or purpose.   

       It's not a debating society, or a parliament, or a thesis. It's a Halfbakery.
Detly, Oct 26 2003
  

       [jutta] how many people do you need?
lawpoop, Oct 26 2003
  

       [waugs,detly] My suggestion doesn't remove fishbones without criticism, it's simply an extra, add-on piece that's there if you want to use it. I don't know, someone might want to use it. It doesn't interfere with anything else that normally goes on at the HB.   

       Another question: Is it possible to have a good idea, but not express it well? With proper criticism, you could refine the idea and present it so that people understand it the first time.   

       Yet another question: It is possible to have the beginning of a good idea, but not be fully completed? If so, then some peer-review, suggestion and criticism could complete it?
lawpoop, Oct 26 2003
  

       // Is it possible to have a good idea, but not express it well? //   

       Yes, and in fact, I think you do this a lot. Most of the time, really. I have to read and reread your ideas trying to understand what you're talking about.
waugsqueke, Oct 26 2003
  

       That's why I post here. The feeback helps me express myself better. Oftentimes I go back and edit the idea to make it clearer, but I'm not always successful ;).   

       "Is it possible to have a good idea, but not express it well?"
"Yes"
So then, you disagree with what you said earlier, "that if it really was a good idea you wouldn't have to fight off so much criticism in the first place"?
lawpoop, Oct 26 2003
  

       I've read the 'about HB' section again. Can someone make like a 'about HB for newbies' or something? Because I see nothing about a corkboard, how much structure the HB has/should have, the fact that it's not a debating society, etc. or anything like that.   

       Or maybe just a page that says 'HB is what it is'.
lawpoop, Oct 26 2003
  

       // So then, you disagree with what you said earlier, "that if it really was a good idea you wouldn't have to fight off so much criticism in the first place"? //   

       No. I never said your ideas were good. I said you don't express them well. Well expressed, they might be good ideas and receive less criticism.   

       I think the thing you need to do more of is read. Get a better feel for what's here and what's appropriate.   

       Steve, I agree with you.
waugsqueke, Oct 26 2003
  

       //Can someone make like a 'about HB for newbies' or something?// See <link>
Shz, Oct 26 2003
  

       lawpoop, your idea is a genuine idea. This does not mean that I favor it. Since I can vote according to my own preferences, I now cast a fishbone.
Tiger Lily, Oct 26 2003
  

       Lawpoop, I do not have another fishbone to cast but I did have at least one other criticism to express:   

       I would not like to see ideas become cluttered with votes on annotations or rebuttals. Talk about not being able to see the forrest for the trees, this would distract from the wonderful flow of idiocracy.
Tiger Lily, Oct 26 2003
  

       Lawpoop, I'll make this my last point because you're probably as tired of me by now, as I am of having to come back and post each criticism separately, according to my understanding of your idea.   

       Damn, I forgot the point I wanted to make...
Tiger Lily, Oct 26 2003
  

       Speaking of frustration, I must vent some.   

       I am one of those so called "yahoos" that have posted annotations with more than one part. They are not rambling just because they make more than one point in a single annotation. I have a fair grasp of paragraphs and I use them well enough to convey what I intend to convey.   

       Why do you find it so offensive that someone would make more than one point in a single annotation? Most readers here don't seem to have trouble with that.   

       The multi-part annotations I have posted on your ideas have tended to be an attempt to point out lack of clarity, address possible misuse of terminology and to give you some clue as to what you might research to help you gain a better understanding of the topic that you are attempting to discuss. I intentionally take the extra time and effort to structure these annotations in a very general question form so as not to not call in to question your intelligence, knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.   

       Frankly, I find it downright insulting when you tell me to read the idea again. You completely discount the fact that I read your ideas many times over as a courtesy to you. (Unfortunately, I have to read them over and over to get a reasonable sense of what you might be talking about.) Your general attitude seems to be that if I don't understand what you're saying, it's because I didn't read or can't read or I'm just an uneducated moron who can't possibly know something that you don't know.   

       If you like, I can promise you one less potential fishbone by ignoring your ideas completely. I find myself leaning in that direction anyway.   

       I don't particularly like the tone I've taken in this annotation, so feel free to delete it.
half, Oct 27 2003
  

       Well written, [half]. And thanks for taking the heat on the "yahoo" issue; I was quite sure that comment was directed at me.   

       I keep wondering when someone is going to point out that that [lawpoop] repeatedly misspells the objective of his quest, and presumably, the entire reason for this thread: "croissants".
jurist, Oct 27 2003
  

       as a newbie i can only say that this site is as fun to read as it is terrifying to post. the expectations here are very high, which results in a lot of smart ideas and funny comments. but the criticism is tough and i felt pretty crushed by the reaction to my first idea. not a place for the faint of heart. still it's highly entertaining, and rather addictive...
aquamarine, Oct 27 2003
  

       // I said I was sick of fishbones without criticism. //   

       I find fishbones without criticism thrillingly intriguing, and intriguingly thrilling.
Fishrat, Oct 27 2003
  

       Personally, I have found the voting system to be a rather keen teacher in learning what people like, don't like, etc. I doubt that the bakery would have the same level of quality without it. It seems rather like the difference in output between a highly flawed but functioning meritocracy where the merits don't technically matter but sorta do underground, and a socialist welfare state.   

       I also believe voting helps newbies with gumption enough to accept lessons they don't particularly like to figure the place out more quickly than if it weren't available.   

       My first two or three were received terribly, and I remember how I felt. But it was also a learning experience, school of hard knocks, and all that.   

       Dare to learn the things that you dread. You'll come out all the braver for it.
RayfordSteele, Oct 27 2003
  

       Tiger Lily, I wish there were more bakers like you.
lawpoop, Oct 27 2003
  

       Idiocracy... sounds like a type of goverment system. The British have their constitutional monarchy / republic thingy, Virginia is a commonwealth, and California is an idiocracy.
RayfordSteele, Oct 27 2003
  

       kakistocracy
bristolz, Oct 27 2003
  

       Ruled by khaki?   

       And would Massachusetts a few years ago have been a Dukakistocracy?
DrCurry, Oct 27 2003
  

       I count myself as one of the yahoos. I wasn't referring to you, jurist. Sorry If it looks like a personal jabs.   

       I was venting on this thread, and I went to far. I do like the idiocracy aspect of it, and I participate in it. My only wish is that there was a more serious option (not replacement) for debating an idea.
lawpoop, Oct 27 2003
  

       Well, there's always overbaked, a yahoo group I created as an overflow for things like debates and such.
RayfordSteele, Oct 28 2003
  

       But hardly anyone fights by the time they get there. So, actually it feels more like a cooling off room or a time-out. (well, it's true!)   

       Btw, I gave you a fishbone for the following reason: If everyone votes on others' annotations of ideas, then people (much like yourself) will be tempted to whine about the votes on the annotations, as well as whining about the votes on the post itself, which will make every single post on the HB a great big whine-fest which, I heartily believe, the HB does not need. Therefore, I believe we should leave the voting system in its more simplified state.
k_sra, Oct 28 2003
  

       Looking at your profial only, lawpoop (and unfortunatly I have to admit to not having read many of your ideas) you seem to have a pritty good ratio of pastry to bones. So what's the problem?
As a last point though (oh god I'm trying too make too different points in one annotattaion) - if you think people are picking on you for being such an obstreperous git, then your probably rite.
And learn to spel for crissakes.
goff, Oct 28 2003
  

       i'm not exacttly a veteran myself to this site. I don't come here too often and realy only write comments which are pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand. But lawpoop and all you other newbies out there, if you can't handle someone "fishboning" your idea or recieving criticism on a site from people who you don't even know, who are probably thousands of miles away from you then i'm going to have to say your pretty patheitc. Harsh words I know, but really, if you can't handle it then I don't want to even think about how you handle the drama's of everyday life!   

       And i'm fishboning this idea and offering you no criticism as to why I am. I'd give you more than one but jutta won't let me
Mind_Boggle, Oct 29 2003
  

       I think it always helps to remember that people are doing you a favour by reading your idea; you're not doing them a favour by posting it. When someone clicks on your recently-posted idea, you're not magnanimously letting them into a little facet of your genius; rather you're just taking up a bit of their precious time. They don't have a duty to you to try to understand whatever it is you're rambling on about - you have a duty to them to try to hold their interest, explain yourself as best you can, and hold their interest long enough for them to get to the end of your idea.   

       You can't complain if you get it wrong.
lostdog, Oct 29 2003
  

       Fishbone. And I'm not going to tell you why.
DrBob, Oct 30 2003
  

       <understands now why [lostdog]'s posts are so uniformly brilliant>   

       Quite right, Mr. Le Dog.
k_sra, Oct 30 2003
  

       woof
po, Oct 30 2003
  

       the lost leading the lost? Where do I sign?
RayfordSteele, Nov 01 2003
  

       I'd follow, I know some of the dives he gets to!
po, Nov 01 2003
  

       In my oppinion you all need brains. You would think that between all of you, you would be able to come up with one good one. But I was wrong.
krins, Dec 22 2003
  

       Teach us, oh wise one.
k_sra, Dec 22 2003
  

       //In my oppinion you all need brains.//   

       There's something vaguely ironic about this sentence. I might be able to pick it, if I had half an ounce of brains.
Detly, Dec 23 2003
  

       I prefer the 'between all of you.'
RayfordSteele, Dec 23 2003
  
      
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