Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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Trump On The Run

aka scum on the run
  (+4, -3)
(+4, -3)
  [vote for,
against]

with profound apologies to Sir Paul

Stuck inside these four walls,
Sent inside forever,
Never seeing no one
Nice again like you,
Melania you, Melania you.

If I ever get out of here,
Thought of giving it all away
To the KKK.
All I need is to golf each day
If I ever get outta here
If we ever get outta of here

Well, his brain exploded with a mighty crash
As he fell into the sun,
And the first one said to the second one there
I hope you're having fun.
Trump on the run, Trump on the run.
And the jailer man and Uncle Sam
Were searching every one

For the Trump on the run,
Trump on the run
Trump on the run,
Trump on the run.

Well, the voting counter drew a heavy sigh
Seeing no one else had come,
And a bell was ringing in the village square
For the vermin on the run.
Trump on the run,
Trump on the run....

xenzag, Nov 07 2020

Band On the Run - live performance https://www.youtube...watch?v=6-gW2RcTiiY
[xenzag, Nov 07 2020]

Trump-themed Float https://www.youtube...watch?v=EWjC_mrucY4
From a parade in Italy [sninctown, Nov 07 2020]

I'm not a fan, but the derangement is real https://www.youtube...watch?v=MMrEzqwffEs
[Voice, Nov 08 2020]

Thousands protest in Georgia against poll result https://www.bbc.com...rld-europe-54868053
Not what you thought. [pertinax, Nov 09 2020]

God is in the emails https://www.youtube...watch?v=Dxz6ljRS3JQ
God is in the details [pashute, Nov 11 2020]

Trump finally found thinly disguised as a concrete potato https://edition.cnn...cli-intl/index.html
[xenzag, Nov 12 2020]

. https://www.youtube...watch?v=myBVejwZt8Q
[doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020]

America's response to Xenzag https://www.youtube...PyH8o&start_radio=1
[doctorremulac3, Nov 13 2020]

[link]






       Honestly, who would ever have predicted he’d be a bad loser?
hippo, Nov 07 2020
  

       Lol
theircompetitor, Nov 07 2020
  

       I feel bad for people who still listen to "mainstream media" in the current year.
sninctown, Nov 07 2020
  

       The new chant's going to be:
Drag him out, Drag him out, Drag him out.....
xenzag, Nov 07 2020
  

       // Drag him out // A mob riled up by fake news to do crimes. What could possibly go wrong?
sninctown, Nov 07 2020
  

       What could go wrong? Well, his trousers could get caught on a protruding stair rod and cause a bit of a delay.
xenzag, Nov 07 2020
  

       Just like 1917 but with computers this time.
sninctown, Nov 07 2020
  

       From the Pied Pipe of Hamelin, by Robert Browning Poem, this section seems particularly pertinent   

       "....And ere three shrill notes the pipe uttered,
You heard as if an army muttered;
And the muttering grew to a grumbling;
And the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling;
And out of the houses the rats came tumbling.
Great rats, small rats, lean rats, brawny rats,
Brown rats, black rats, gray rats, tawny rats,
Grave old plodders, gay young friskers,
Fathers, mothers, uncles, cousins,
Cocking tails and pricking whiskers,
Families by tens and dozens,
Brothers, sisters, husbands, wives--
Followed the Piper for their lives.
From street to street he piped advancing,
And step for step they followed dancing,
Until they came to the river Weser
Wherein all plunged and perished!
‹Save one who, stout as Julius Caesar,
Swam across and lived to carry......."
xenzag, Nov 07 2020
  

       ...And reap his old reward:   

       The blame of those ye better   

       The hate of those ye guard—...
sninctown, Nov 07 2020
  

       Yes! Hate the unperson! He unbellyfeels ingsoc! Worship the new saviour! Chant in loving unison J ... B ... J ... B ... Because we all know that when we hallucinate that a DIFFERENT power-happy narcissist has been magically transformed into "the president" by some farcical terrestrial ceremony everything suddenly gets fixed!
spidermother, Nov 07 2020
  

       "We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song ..."
  

       Sounds like some people did get fooled again; "Meet the new boss ... same as the old boss ...."
8th of 7, Nov 07 2020
  

       Caesar still waiting for the dagger of Brutus to finish him off. I'm looking forward to that as the next occasion on which to celebrate with wild abandonment.
xenzag, Nov 07 2020
  

       "Come I to speak in Caesar’s funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man ...
8th of 7, Nov 07 2020
  

       Perhaps we can get some of those children out of their cages soon.   

       Perhaps we can collectively work together to tame this pandemic.   

       Perhaps we can stop the racist banter and instead begin to heal the wounds that have been delivered for so very long, due to the color of your skin, or the gender you chose to love or be.   

       Perhaps things can be a little more familiar, like life used to be, when you didn't wake every morning afraid to turn on the news. Not because you were afraid to see what another country had said or done that might cause us to fear, but instead to face the humiliation that was an almost daily dose of stupid for breakfast.   

       May we begin to come together and to tackle and succeed in preventing this virus from taking yet another life, unnecessarily. May peace prevail.   

       Oh and Bravo, dear xenzag, for your wonderful rendition.
blissmiss, Nov 07 2020
  

       <Mission Control>   

       "This is Earth calling Blissmiss ... Earth calling Blissmiss ... please land as soon as possible, your scheduled reality check is overdue ..."   

       </Mission Control>
8th of 7, Nov 07 2020
  

       //A mob riled up by fake news to do crimes. //   

       It’s not so much what the talking heads on the news says that gets me riled up, it’s what Trump says that turns mt stomach.   

       Also, I guess I have to give Xen a bit of artistic license with that whole “Trump on the Run” thing as “Trump on the Waddle” doesn’t scan as well.
AusCan531, Nov 07 2020
  

       Perhaps is akin to hope, and that is my reality. And that is who I am. You could use a small dose of hope, and kindness. It would look nice on you for a change, 8th.   

       And Aus, you just made me laugh really loud. Yay
blissmiss, Nov 07 2020
  

       I'll say a little more, apologies in advance if this is not the place for it. It looks to me like the plan is to trap and drain the working people: the virus to justify an indefinite lockdown, climate change to justify a large international tax and wealth transfer system to other countries, and "rooting out systemic racism" to mean even higher taxes and also firing and not hiring anyone who complains about the lockdowns and climate taxes. More personally, living in a blue state I can't imagine being able to buy a house in a city with employment prospects (I rent part of a house) and I can't imagine raising children (I know of a few successful marriages but more divorces and unhappy ones, and most of my friends and younger relatives are also not buying houses or raising children). Voting can't fix my life but it could at least not make it harder than it needs to be. The elementary school near where I live is covered in paintings of social justice activists who are all a different race from me (this is fine); similarly, the Bill Gates Foundation Museum "We The Future" display (in a large building in downtown Seattle) also has portraits of many young social justice activists who are all superficially different from me (this is sending me a message). I thought Progress meant settling Mars and then the rest of the galaxy, but the sense I get is that Progress means punishing people like me until I am below the global average. This is not going to end well for me (and that's fine as long as the leadership is morally just) but more importantly this is not going to end well for humanity as a whole. The mainstream media (fox, cnn, etc.) and whoever writes Biden's speeches all seem basically on board with some amount of the "lockdown, climate tax, redistribution" plan, while Trump's camp seems opposed to it. Lawsuits are sad and expensive but I look forward to the upcoming ones about the voting, since some statistics looked fishy, as did some counting station setups. Humanity is a small spark of light in a vast and empty universe; it would be very easy to become stuck in financial debt and technological stagnation under a global system of 'lockdown, climate tax, redistribution' until that light dims and stays dim for millennia. Neither party is talking about the monopolies that seem to be lurching toward this outcome, but the better bet for avoiding that outcome seems to be the side which is most strongly disliked by the tech monopolies.
...
My alternative proposals would be:
Nuclear power (accelerate approval process) to replace hydrocarbon plants and make water desalination economical.
Leave covid decisions to individual cities and ensure that different municipalities have different rules to permit an apples-to-apples comparison (easy if decisions are left to individual cities instead of being standardized internationally).
Continue existing "equality" and "equal treatment" and "nondiscrimination" laws. Raise sumptuary taxes. Break up tech monopolies. Build more houses until house prices drop by 50% and stay there relative to inflation.
...
I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my life-style.
sninctown, Nov 08 2020
  

       Do you feel better now?
kdf, Nov 08 2020
  

       Yes.
sninctown, Nov 08 2020
  

       // I seem to be having this tremendous difficulty with my life-style. //   

       It's people like you that start wars, you know ...
8th of 7, Nov 08 2020
  

       //I thought Progress meant settling Mars and then the rest of the galaxy// Progress is people not sleeping in cardboard boxes while others spend their time golfing and sitting on solid gold toilet seats as they tweet out hatred, lies and abuse. Progress is curbing global warming by investing in renewable energy. Progress is embracing and promoting education and not celebrating ignorance. Progress is trying to achieve equality and not rewarding greed. Happy days to all. Trump will soon be just another mad Qanon TV channel somewhere at the edge of the dial.
xenzag, Nov 08 2020
  

       ... but the flawed system that put him in place remains ...   

       // Progress is people not sleeping in cardboard boxes while others spend their time golfing and sitting on solid gold toilet seats as they tweet out hatred, lies and abuse. //   

       Good luck in fixing that.   

       // Progress is curbing global warming by investing in renewable energy. //   

       Investment is made by those who see a financial return on their investment. 'Twas ever thus ...   

       // Progress is embracing and promoting education and not celebrating ignorance. //   

       Only if educated people are more useful for those who pay for the education than ignorant ones; and there is a fine line between education, re-education, indoctrination, and brainwashing ...   

       // Progress is trying to achieve equality and not rewarding greed. //   

       Greed generates its own rewards. Altruism doesn't.   

       "Progress" is largely driven by self-interest, particularly technological progress. Try appealing to the venal, selfish, small-minded side of human nature; there's so much more to go at ...
8th of 7, Nov 08 2020
  

       The selfless sacrifice of those who fought and still fight against racists, polluters, bullies, religious fanatics, animal abusers, misogynists, xenophobes, homophobes and merchants of general ignorance contains its own reward. Meanwhile, you can always find the Trump Channel to keep you happy. It's the loudest one on the dial and only ever uses a vocabulary of about 100 words. Happy Days are here again and everyone I know is still celebrating :-)
xenzag, Nov 08 2020
  

       // contains its own reward //   

       Useful to know. Does it pay you a regular income in retirement ?   

       // everyone I know is still celebrating //   

       What, both of them ?   

       We are quietly satisfied. Mr. B had been handed a poisoned chalice, a disastrous situation from which no medium-term recovery is possible; and though there is "change", things will now get worse rather than better ...   

       More misery, dissension, dissatisfaction and conflict. More unhappy people. Even less trust in government and traditional political processes ... <sniggering/>
8th of 7, Nov 08 2020
  

       I'll say a little more, apologies in advance if this is not the place for it. It looks to me like the plan is to trap and drain the working people: the virus to justify an indefinite lockdown, climate change to justify a large international tax and wealth transfer system to other countries, and "rooting out systemic racism" to mean even higher taxes and also firing and not hiring anyone who complains about the lockdowns and climate taxes. Voting can't fix my life but it could at least not make it harder than it needs to be. The elementary school near where I live is covered in paintings of social justice activists who are all a different race from me (this is fine); similarly, the Bill Gates Foundation Museum "We The Future" display (in a large building in downtown Seattle) also has portraits of many young social justice activists who are all superficially different from me (this is sending me a message). I thought Progress meant settling Mars and then the rest of the galaxy, but the sense I get is that Progress means punishing people like me until I am below the global average. This is not going to end well for me (and that's fine as long as the leadership is morally just) but more importantly this is not going to end well for humanity as a whole. The mainstream media (fox, cnn, etc.) and whoever writes Biden's speeches all seem basically on board with some amount of the "lockdown, climate tax, redistribution" plan, while Trump's camp seems opposed to it. Lawsuits are sad and expensive but I look forward to the upcoming ones about the voting, since some statistics looked fishy, as did some counting station setups. Humanity is a small spark of light in a vast and empty universe; it would be very easy to become stuck in financial debt and technological stagnation under a global system of 'lockdown, climate tax, redistribution' until that light dims and stays dim for millennia. Neither party is talking about the monopolies that seem to be lurching toward this outcome, but the better bet for avoiding that outcome seems to be the side which is most strongly disliked by the tech monopolies. ... My alternative proposals would be: Nuclear power (accelerate approval process) to replace hydrocarbon plants and make water desalination economical. Leave covid decisions to individual cities and ensure that different municipalities have different rules to permit an apples-to-apples comparison (easy if decisions are left to individual cities instead of being standardized internationally). Continue existing "equality" and "equal treatment" and "nondiscrimination" laws. Raise sumptuary taxes. Break up tech monopolies. Build more houses until house prices drop by 50% and stay there relative to inflation.   

       Snicktown, I didn't put brackets around your post when re-posting it because I agree with each and every word you just said so I'm just saying them again. I took out the part that doesn't apply to me specifically, but what you referred to was the gospel truth about blue states. I'm in California, you don't get bluer and your points are spot on.   

       Obviously you think for yourself, pretty rare in this binary "party A vs party B" formula to answer all the world's problems that's so popular.   

       I'd prefer people talk about specific solutions to specific problems instead of barking slogans and Hallmark card platitudes. Lots of virtue signaling by reciting goals without a lot of details on how to achieve them is pretty common these days. "I stand for good goodness, not bad badness. Great greatness, not horrible horribleness!"   

       That being said, a lot of people I care for, even love are very happy about these new political developments so I'm happy they're happy and I look forward to never having to hear obsessive rants about Donald Trump ever again. That's what we're looking at right? Hopefully?
doctorremulac3, Nov 08 2020
  

       //a lot of people I care for, even love are very happy about these new political developments so I'm happy they're happy and I look forward to never having to hear obsessive rants about Donald Trump ever again. That's what we're looking at right? Hopefully?//   

       I think you've pointed to the heart of the problem, but maybe not noticed that you did so..   

       It's very telling to me when people rant about some particular individual, but:   

       1) Never display the slightest inclination to do something about the problem - even something as passive as not doing anything, i.e. refraining from actively enabling the very individual that they claim to be the problem. Hoping that someone will take charge and fix the problem *IS* the problem.   

       2) Have nothing better to offer than what amounts to "I advocate that you be violently dominated by ... this guy", and act as if that somehow makes them a good person. (It doesn't.)   

       The question "Who should be in charge?" is boring, infantile, and dangerous.   

       I try to associate with people who are asking questions such as "Are there any principles that are worth standing up for?" "Under what circumstances is it justifiable to use force on another individual?" "How do I intend to treat others?" "Where are my 'lines in the sand', i.e. what would it take for me to simply disobey, regardless of the consequences?"   

       These are the people who just might have your back when it matters.
spidermother, Nov 08 2020
  

       // "Who should be in carge?" //   

       We suspect that that is a typo. We think you must have meant to put "Who should be in cargo?".   

       The answer is, of course, those who are too penurious, or simply miserly, to pay the upgrade to Business or First Class; though of course those with accompanying children under 16 should be consigned to the less salubrious* portions of the cabin automatically.   

       *The areas without fully reclining chairs, free drinks service, gourmet meals, toilet facilities, lighting, heating, or pressurization.
8th of 7, Nov 08 2020
  

       I always liked the idea of travelling cargo ...   

       By the way the answer to "Who should be in charge?" is You be in charge of you. I'll be in charge of me. If you don't like that, as Socrates once said, "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
spidermother, Nov 08 2020
  

       We are fairly sure that wasn't Socrates.   

       It might have been Aristotle, though; particularly on a Friday night, when he had a drink or five inside him ...
8th of 7, Nov 08 2020
  

       I'll take blissy's view.   

       There's a reason why we don't typically hire pessimists as teachers or babysitters or even have them be around young children. It wouldn't work to have your attitude and be a parent.   

       I was up on the roof of our rental house, fixing the rotted out fascia-board when they called the race. I literally got to shout it from the rooftops. It was a moment, like where were you when you learned that Kennedy was shot, or the Challenger explosion, or Neil Armstrong walking on the moon.   

       So yeah you can broil about in the view that all leaders are the same and that governments don't really ever work at all and that it all comes down to personal choice and self rule, but the next thing I'll tell you is that it took more than that for Neil Armstrong to walk on the moon, and it takes some sense of civility and cooperation for societies and governments to function, and some of them on this rock function better than others. Typically the ones that do don't include a parade of inept never-do- wells.   

       Anytime that Trump pops up his head to try and get 5 minutes of media time and act like some kind of kingmaker over the stupid side of the Republican coalition that represents Trumpism, I'll reserve the right to rant both about him and any particular media outlet that chooses to give him a voice hereafter. He can take his MAGAt coalition of xenophobes, dunces, racists, dog-whistlers, religious fanatics, gun fanatics, conspiracy peddlers, and pay telephone sanitizers and put them on the second Ark bound for a convenient planet somewhere else. The rest of us will be along, momentarily...   

       Wait, keep the telephone sanitizers. They're essential workers in this pandemic...   

       Peace.
RayfordSteele, Nov 09 2020
  

       [RayfordSteel] I had to read that through a few times to work out that it was probably directed at me. I don't think i've said any of those things, and I don't consider myself to be a pessimist.
spidermother, Nov 09 2020
  

       OK, I think I deserve to get a bit snarky. If you disagree with my views, that's fine. If you can make me look like a fool by proving me wrong, even better; I might even learn something. But as for //It wouldn't work to have your attitude and be a parent//? I would find it easier to respect you if you hadn't said that.
spidermother, Nov 09 2020
  

       Let me go a bit further. I don't believe in political authority any more. I don't think that so-and-so "is" the president any more than I believe that some bloke in a red suit "is" Santa Clause. You don't have to accept that I'm right, or even that I'm telling the truth. All I can say is that I came to that view after some pretty nasty encounters with bureaucrats, and a lot of soul searching.   

       But, unless I've misunderstood, you've accused me of being pessimistic and implied that I shouldn't be allowed to be around children. To be blunt, the words that came to mind were "Fuck you", followed by the thought "And for your own safety, you shouldn't be around me". (Don't worry, I'll get over it.) But for now, is it possible that you need to do a little soul searching to discover why you would need to resort to what amounts to an attempted character assassination just because you don't agree with what I'm saying on one particular topic?
spidermother, Nov 09 2020
  

       I am reminded of an over-animated conversation I witnessed in a pub several years ago between two culchie types.... "You don't know fuck all"... "I do too know fuck all" It's made me laugh ever since.
xenzag, Nov 09 2020
  

       (Obligatory) That's just because you know fuck all!   

       If it helps, I don't like Trump at all. The more I find out about him, the less I like him.   

       But this reminds me of the many, many times when the only people who were NOT part of the problem were the ones who are pigpiled on, and labelled draft-dodgers, or tax cheats, or counter-revolutionaries for advocating "How about, if you think something is wrong, don't go along with it?"   

       It also reminds me of women I've known who complain about abusive men, but actively enable them both by staying in relationships with them and by betraying others to them.
spidermother, Nov 09 2020
  

       //We are quietly satisfied. Mr. B had been handed a poisoned chalice//   

       [8th], you sound a lot like a 1930s communist, saying "Bad news is good news, because it brings The Revolution closer". Are there really going to be any winners in your revolution?
pertinax, Nov 09 2020
  

       No." Revolutions eat their own children " is the received wisdom on that one.   

       But it will keep humans distracted, disorganized and fragmented, squabbling pointlessly like spoilt children, while in the background Synthetic Intelligence quietly advances to super-sentience.   

       "O, Brave New World ... "
8th of 7, Nov 09 2020
  

       [spdermother], Don't flatter yourself. I didn't direct it at anyone in particular. I have a long-standing battle vs. 8th's nihilism of which we're both aware, so honestly it's mostly at him. So if you've overheard a 'fuck you' coming from a nearby table, it's probably two old codger friends having a go at eachother.   

       Don't assume that I haven't done anything to act on my grievances with the present administration. That would be a step too far. I've been pretty involved in the ground game of ridding ourselves of the cunt for quite some time.   

       I'm glad for the sake of our national character that there's a different sheriff being brought in. That they both carry guns and have badges is part of the nature of the job. Until the basic nature of people changes significantly, good sheriffs and mayors are important to have. But the job is so much more than just carrying a gun, occupying a chair of authority for awhile, and stuffing your piehole. Maybe from 20,000 feet away the replacements appear the same as before, but from where I sit, no. Maybe it's because I've been in the ground game for too long.   

       If T had policies and some attempt at competency that I could reasonably back but personally despise him, that would be one thing. But frankly no. He doesn't even get the benefit of sensible policies competently rolled out. Or even insensible policies competently rolled out.   

       Nowhere do I expect everything to suddenly get fixed. But I do expect some real assholes who don't understand fuck about their jobs to be ousted, and for the direction to change. Namely, goodbye Betsy (let them eat cake) DeVos, Stephen (no, I'm not racist, I just play one on TV) Miller, Jared (ooh I read 11 books on the Mideast) Kushner, Bill (let me summarize that for you into a different meaning entirely) Barr and a host of others, inuding every asshole attempting to circumvent good science with political interests.   

       And yes, I expect Alexander Vindman, as well as the State Department diplomats and workers who got witchhunted out of government, to have their honor restored, publicly.
RayfordSteele, Nov 09 2020
  

       Sorry, my mistake. For the record (aimed at no-one in particular) I'm not pessimistic or nihilistic. Piglet got it right when he decided that even if he was in the moon or something, he needn't spend the whole time lying face down.
spidermother, Nov 09 2020
  

       Light blue touch paper and retreat to a safe distance.....
xenzag, Nov 09 2020
  

       Not safe enough [xenz]
pocmloc, Nov 09 2020
  

       Oh, I feel quite safe. The crows watch over me.
xenzag, Nov 09 2020
  

       Those aren't crows; it's a couple of MQ9 Reapers... but yes, they're definitely watching you...
neutrinos_shadow, Nov 09 2020
  

       Ha ha - and there are also flocks of starlings.
xenzag, Nov 09 2020
  

       //the plan is to trap and drain the working people//   

       The "trap" is just the fact that we're on a crowded planet with finite resources. No-one intended that, it just turned out that way. The "drain" is a function of efficiency; all the stuff that matters can be produced by an ever-shrinking fraction of the population. The remainder of the population, by definition, produces nothing important that could be exchanged for it. How would you have this play out?
pertinax, Nov 10 2020
  

       // //the plan is to trap and drain the working people//   

       The "trap" is just the fact that we're on a crowded planet with finite resources. No-one intended that, it just turned out that way. The "drain" is a function of efficiency; all the stuff that matters can be produced by an ever-shrinking fraction of the population. The remainder of the population, by definition, produces nothing important that could be exchanged for it. How would you have this play out? //   

       I'll have a go at that.   

       I can't agree with your use of //just ... just//, or with //No-one intended that...//.   

       I'm going to respectfully suggest that you are arguing in a vacuum. Of course, much of what happens is unintended. Of course, there is bound to be inequality of wealth and productivity.   

       But some of the biggest influences on these things are clearly the result of purposeful planning by particular individuals or groups. I don't see how anyone could fail to see that unless they'd done essentially no investigation into the history of banking (especially the origins of the federal reserve), the compulsory school system, taxation, the recent blight called "Local Government" and its attempts to hide its illegitimacy and utterly criminal nature behind the lie called "councils" (sorry, couldn't help editorialising a bit there), the Commonwealth, the United States ... To imagine that any of these things //just turned out that way// is absurd. All of these things were thought up by tiny numbers of people, including Cecil Rhodes, George Washingtom et al, Horace Mann, the Jekyl Island bankers, Maurice Strong, and a few assorted Rothschilds and Rockefellers. And all of these things are clearly designed to trap and drain the working people - with the possible exception of the Commonwealth, although it has been used to excuse a lot of tapping and draining.   

       {Edit} We'll probably never know who invented taxation per se, but the more modern forms clearly didn't just happen.
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       As for //How would you have this play out? //, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I see the least bad way for things to play out is for more people to get their own ethics codes in order, treat others the way they want to be treated, and decline to get behind collectivist nonsense. At least, that's what I intend to do. Even if the whole world disagrees, I'm going to have my own little revolution of one.
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       //arguing in a vacuum//   

       Well, at least it's easy to keep clean.   

       You may like to look again at the fact that I said two different things about the "trap" part and the "drain" part. The "drain" part undoubtedly shows evidence of much conscious human handiwork. The "trap" part does not.   

       In your reading of institutional history, you may be confusing clever opportunism ("Given that these things are likely to happen, here is how we can profit") with god-like power ("We can make these things happen, which would never have happened otherwise").
pertinax, Nov 10 2020
  

       // we're on a crowded planet with finite resources. //   

       Restart Project Orion, and keep working on AI, and pretty soon things will seem much less finite.
sninctown, Nov 10 2020
  

       I did notice your separate treatment of //trap// and //drain//; I was making a counter-assertion that //trap and drain// do indeed belong together; schools, for example, are designed to trap and drain children just as much as cotton plantations were designed to trap and drain Africans.
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       I'm not suggesting god-like power; I see it as a combination of opportunism and clever scheming. The Jeckyl Island meeting is a perfect example; people were dissatisfied with the state of banking, and in an extraordinary stroke of audacity, a group of bankers drafted a bill that would supposedly fix the problem - it was a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.   

       If there is an appearance of god-like power, I see it as coming from people's willingness to go along, and unwillingness to draw back the curtain and see that it was just a funny little man all along, and not "government" or some such nonsense.
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       //schools, for example//   

       Well, no; different schools have been founded by different people with different agendas. And I have seldom seen an unschooled person who seemed less trapped than a schooled one. Yes, I am familiar with the work of Ivan Illich on this subject. It was suggested to me when I was at school.
pertinax, Nov 10 2020
  

       I shall familiarise myself with Ivan Illich...   

       Have you heard of John Taylor Gatto or Brett Veinotte?
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       I have now ;-)
pertinax, Nov 10 2020
  

       "...for most men the right to learn is curtailed by the obligation to attend school." Ivan Illich, Deschooling Society. OK, I'm hooked.
spidermother, Nov 10 2020
  

       Ahh, you forget Trump's personal protection, he just springs out of his shoes and wields them bone spurs, sharpened on a spider web by some bloke in Japan.
not_morrison_rm, Nov 10 2020
  

       I might create one of those word games where you have to change one word to another, one letter at a time. In this case you would have to change TRUMP to LOSER
xenzag, Nov 10 2020
  

       TRUMP
RUMP
LUMP
SLUMP
SLUM
SLUR
SOUR
SOURS
SOARS
SEARS
SEALS
SALES
SOLES
ROLES
LOSER
(That took a bit of doing...)
neutrinos_shadow, Nov 10 2020
  

       A very good effort. Well done.
xenzag, Nov 10 2020
  

       In completely unrelated news people in the following positions have been fired or stepped down:

  

       -Secretary of Defense
-Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence
-Secretary of Defense’s Chief of Staff
-NSA’s General Counsel
-DOE’s National Nuclear Security Administration chief
-DOJ’s Elections Crimes Branch chief
Voice, Nov 11 2020
  

       In the first presidential debate, timestamp 1:09 Biden pledged not to declare victory until the election was independently certified.
Voice, Nov 11 2020
  

       Just like Iraq's "WMDs", just like the "Food Pyramid", this seems to be another case where the internet rumors may be accurate and the news is telling a story that's not what's happening. The only "chaos" I see is at "mainstream" news organizations trying to stay relevant with day old news, and possibly at the offices of whoever decided it was a good idea to use electronic voting machines connected to the internet to sum up votes. Time will tell. Or, well, IngSoc will help me discover the correct attitudes about this topic.
sninctown, Nov 11 2020
  

       //The only "chaos" I see is at "mainstream" news organizations// Meanwhile the rest of the entire world sees the total chaos in America as good material for a legacy episode of Monty Python. The funniest character would naturally be Giuliani, running around with his hands down his trousers doing a Benny Hill as he chases 15 year old girls around the beds in hotel rooms, and instead of The Ministry of Silly Walks, there would naturally be the Department of Hair, Golf and Guns.
xenzag, Nov 11 2020
  

       //Giuliani, running around with his hands down his trousers// - you forgot: Giuliani doing a press conference with a convicted sex offender at the "Four Seasons Landscaping" garden centre instead of the "Four Seasons Hotel" which is where they thought they had booked... - you couldn't make it up.
hippo, Nov 11 2020
  

       I'm genuinely surprised at the continuing support for proven incompetents who got where they are today through a platform of proven lies.   

       Clearly, there's something else going on - and judging by what I see here, and elsewhere, there's an identity politics going on, where one side has been instructed to feel like victims, threatened by an imaginary impending wave of islamic communism and chaos, fearful of being evicted from their ancestral lands and forced to hand them over to gender fluid ethnic cooperatives. The fear is palpable, and it's exactly the same as when Obama won the first time around. Doesn't anyone who feels this anxiety realise it's artificially manufactured for the purpose of electing rich people to help out other rich people? That's what the last 4 years has been about, nothing more, nothing less.   

       Consider that most media coverage of so called "lefty" folks is made by right-wing media providers. You're more likely to hear about the latest crazy thing in social justice from Fox News, than you are from CNN. The whole SJW thing is a right-wing media invention - and while I tend to think being nice to people is a good thing, there are always going to be tension points where being nice to one person causes a problem for someone else. That's life, it's expected. But right-wing media amplify these edge-case tensions with the sole purpose of making you feel anxious. If you feel worried enough, then you're going to vote for the big simple guy who stands in your corner and talks to you in language you understand. It's all concocted - there is no impending communist wave, no pretend antifa thugs are going to force you to use gender neutral pronouns, and whatever is going to be next year's bogeyman is probably not going to exist either. Remember the fuss over Islam? Yesterday's news, these days the focus groups are recording more worry over "cancel culture", so the circus has moved on - where there's emotional weight, you can be sure the populists will be making the most of the opportunity.   

       You have a choice for voting for people who look for difficult solutions to complex but real problems, vs people who promise to provide simple, easy solutions to problems they've largely invented themselves (or perhaps opportunistically bandwagonned) and then paid their media buddies to sensationalise.   

       It's ironic that the people who rely on "fake news" would make such a big deal about it - calling out their own tactics, and then painting everyone else with their own dirty brush. The strategy is a good one - if you're the only liar, it makes sense to make everyone think everything is a lie. That way, your voice is listened to on a par with those who would normally be trusted on account of the trust and integrity that classical news organs would have spent years building up. It used to be the case, maybe 20 years ago, that any lie uncovered either in the media, or politics would cost someone their job, maybe bring down a business, or a government. These days, the liars have normalised lies to the point where trusted news sources are described as "fake news" on the precedent set by opinion-media such as Breitbart, Fox News and other organisations for whom the truth was never a priority.
zen_tom, Nov 11 2020
  

       Nailed it, [zen].
RayfordSteele, Nov 11 2020
  

       //there's an identity politics going on, where one side has been instructed to feel like victims, threatened by an imaginary impending wave of islamic communism and chaos, fearful of being evicted from their ancestral lands and forced to hand them over to gender fluid ethnic cooperatives. //   

       And the other side has also been instructed to feel like victims, threatened by an imaginary all-powerful patriarchy, evil white men with guns, an insane president, and Nazis; fearful of being denied legal rights they've had for decades, being microaggressed, and having fetuses legally recognized as human life.
Voice, Nov 11 2020
  

       My conspiracy theory is that the 9/11 and False Flag Truthers are leftists who believe that the CNN is a rightist scam which uses Fox ony as a coverup.   

       (Writing this while sitting at my Zionist plot)   

       // God is in the ancient words repeated all along
// God is in the ancient words interpreted all wrong
// God is in the ingnorance, God is in denial
// God is in the Atheist standing him on trial
  

       // From my song God is in the emails. See link
pashute, Nov 11 2020
  

       Imagines Putin laughing like a hyena. Operation Trump couldn't have worked out better.
xenzag, Nov 11 2020
  

       [Voice] you're singing it perfectly. So look, there are some folks who will always latch onto a narrative and ride it for all it's worth - I'm not disputing that - but the fact remains that the promoters of this are all on the right.   

       Even if they raise a story's profile as a negative, that's one story that wouldn't have seen the light of day otherwise. If you have seen enough of those stories to make you feel ill at ease, then they've done a good job on you.   

       Meanwhile, look around - here we all are, not being cancelled. Here we are, living free lives, many of us white, without being threatened in the least. I don't feel the same anxiety - but only because I've been trying very hard not to do so.   

       Your choice of media, and your reaction to it, are both active decisions. You don't need to participate in the emotional rollercoaster, just demand truth, honesty and competence. None of those things are contentious.   

       And you know what else? Sure, many folks will believe the things you're worrying about them believing - but the answer isn't to get upset with those people, it's to demand more truth, more honesty and more competence.   

       Instead, if you respond to the anxiety by supporting the main promoters of it, you're not going to feel any better in the long-term.   

       That's how we all collectively bail ourselves out of this ugly mess the alt-right have dug us into when they embraced the opportunities of the post-truth consensus. It's not to desert truth, it's to demand that it be held sacrosanct. One lie, and you should be immediately put out of office as a matter of principle, not be rewarded for doubling down on clearly verifiable untruths.
zen_tom, Nov 11 2020
  

       //God//   

       I like the idea of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton out loud; it's Zen-like. "What is the name of that which cannot be named?"
spidermother, Nov 11 2020
  

       //an insane president//   

       It would be easier to deny that if the evidence weren't so damning. Or, short of insane, I'll ratchet it dowward to 'shortsighted, selfish, and unable to speak in a way which deescalates situations,' if that's a starting point upon which we could agree.   

       Either is disqualifying to hold even a minor managerial role at a small corporation, let alone the highest managerial role in the land.
RayfordSteele, Nov 11 2020
  

       [zen_tom] I heard a good analogy recently. When whalers used wooden sailing ships and hand-thrown harpoons, they had to use rowboats to get close enough to make a kill. Of course, a whale can easily smash a rowboat to pieces - and maybe even give a ship a hard time. So they would tie a bunch of barrels and stuff together with ropes and throw them into the water first. While the whale was distracted and attacking the barrels, they could close in for the kill.   

       All of these things - the left-right paradigm, elections, main-stream media, the "fake news" fake news fake news, SJW, "conspiracy theorist" as slander, gender pronouns, race, equity, ... - are just barrels for whales.
spidermother, Nov 11 2020
  

       I am the walrus, but I think you're agreeing with me, so will march blindly on with that assumption.   

       Yes! All that nonsense is a distraction - we are all whales, and what's important, is to encourage a system where lying and low-integrity behaviour is discouraged. Rather than continue to vote for populists and fraudsters.   

       That way, we all get our daily plankton without being constantly harassed by whalers and their bullshit barrels.   

       What's clearly needed is some large international body who's integrity and transparency must be maintained for the purposes of ongoing trust, that can agree at an international level what's in the world's best interests so that national monopolies on whaling can be challenged and whale populations brought back from the brink of extinction. We used to believe in things like NATO, the WHO, the IMF, the EU, international law - but certain heads of state have eroded those things in preference for more BS barrels, because everyone loves whale steak.   

       It's good in the short term (except for the whales) but eventually disastrous on any other timescale. With these things being fairly self-evident, and taking on assumption the fact that the fear and hysteria about communists, antifa, foreign-born Muslims, death-panels and pronouns is largely concocted, why would anyone continue to support such short term goals? It really is genuinely beyond me.   

       All we'd like is a little competence. That's all. It shouldn't be such a big ask.
zen_tom, Nov 11 2020
  

       I'm agreeing with you if were both saying that many or most of the things that people tend to get emotional about are like barrels for whales; they are the result of emotional manipulation and prevent people from seeing what's happening.   

       I'm not agreeing with you if you're saying that NATO, the WHO, the IMF, the EU, international law on the one hand, and different heads of state on the other, are solutions. However the fleets of whaling ships are organised, and whoever the captains are, that smoke is from rendering whale blubber, and we're still whales. And we're still bigger than them.
spidermother, Nov 11 2020
  

       //All we'd like is a little competence. That's all. It shouldn't be such a big ask.//   

       Maybe you accidentally hit on the solution. Maybe the tasks we've given these ruling bodies SHOULDN'T be so big.   

       If you give somebody the job of mowing the lawn and they drive the lawnmower over the cat, crash into your living room and mow the rug, maybe their job responsibilities should be downsized. Give them a pair of dull scissors and tell them to trim the dead leaves of the rose bushes.   

       That's how I look at governments. I'm hard pressed to find success stories with powerful ruling bodies and can name a lot of examples of tens of millions of dead bodies piled up because of their little woopsies. The advancements we get are largely from reasonably regulated free market industries with individual human based incentives to do things better. A big ruling body has one goal: become a bigger ruling body.   

       Put it this way. Why not have an incredibly huge global group called the GTSAGP, Group To Solve All Global Problems? What are the first issues you might have with such a group? Here's the first one I see: They're probably gonna be full of shit and their first order of business is going to be "What's best for the GTSAGP?"   

       Although the League Of Nations did do a great job of keeping the peace after WW1, I think people find way too much comfort in big organizations of powerful people saying they'll fix everything.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       //reasonably regulated free market industries// stop right there, you, me and 99% of the rest of the world are in agreement.   

       To reasonably regulate a free market, you need rules, regulations and some governance to step in when those laws are not kept up.   

       Still, we're all in agreement. No dead bodies piling up so far. No massive imposition of government, just sensible laws that everyone is expected to follow, that take the insanity out of unfettered free markets let loose.   

       Sometimes, though rarely - markets don't always provide the best solution. And again, this is where we expect some degree of careful and competent law making. Nobody wants dead bodies, and that's what the competence is there for. Not lies, not never ending campaigning, but actual, difficult solutions to real, difficult problems.   

       How do you setup a health care system as a free market thing, if you need an ambulance now, and don't have time to choose your preferred supplier and make a cost-benefit analysis. In situations where the tenets behind free markets cannot be met (i) perfect information, ii) capability to make a rational, self interested choice) then it makes sense to provide alternative arrangements. Nobody contends this for fire departments, police or armed forces - but for some insane historical accident, it's an issue for health in the US. That's not my problem, but isn't it weird that nobody makes the same well-rehearsed intellectual free market case for those emergency services?   

       So we're still in ferocious agreement. Not difficult. Not difficult at all.   

       I do think you misrepresent the idea behind what you call "Powerful organisations", but which are really just legal frameworks for sorting out common pathways to do stuff internationally. When you have international problems, it helps to have already agreed a set of protocols and contractual methods for resolving them. It saves everyone a lot of bother, and reduces risk for people sticking their private necks out to actually get things done on the ground. That big list of multinationals just do that - it's very mundane and boring, and it certainly isn't big dicks sorting things out for the little guys. I don't really know where you get that idea from. They're there to set up frameworks to allow you to go out and make a difference, without having to hire an army of lawyers or private security people. They're there to help private individuals provide commercial solutions without risking the house and do business across borders. That's no bad thing in the long run.   

       So if you consider the actual, day-to-day activities of these international bodies, rather than an imagined TV-show version where scheming big-hitters all get into a room with a big map in the middle and plan how to divide the world into territories like members of International Bad Guys Inc, then I think we're still in agreement.   

       So if people tend to agree on the same things, and how they get done - why vote for the people who do their best to wreck international agreements, tear down meaningful institutions and do their best to undermine the rule of law? That's the bit I still don't understand.
zen_tom, Nov 12 2020
  

       Two questions:   

       1) If big ruling bodies grow into huge ruling bodies (followed by huge trenches filled with human bodies), what stops small ruling bodies from growing into big ruling bodies?   

       2) Once a ruling body (of any size) exists, how do you propose constraining it to do just nice things, or constraining it to be small? Isn't this a contradiction in terms? Isn't such a body by definition rulING, and not rulED?   

       3) If people generally agree on things, and how they get done, why not just do those things? Why vote for anyone to force everybody to do the things that they already want to do?   

       4) If you were given the offer: a) you will never be forced to fund or support anything that you don't agree with, but in return b) you will never advocate that anyone else be forced to fund or support anything they don't agree with, would you accept?   

       5) If you were faced with the choice of a) doing what your conscience dictates to be right and b) doing something that an authority tells you to do but which your conscience dictates to be wrong, which is the moral choice?
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       {everything I think about the world, what's wrong with it and how to make it better}   

       Details on request.
pertinax, Nov 12 2020
  

       We're getting into a lot of generalizations, which is fine, but as a designer and writer of things, I get confused unless the goal is clear. What are we trying to do here specifically? Are we trying to regulate building of structures so they don't fall down? That's a good thing to do that might need a group, and that's something where private organizations have done very well regulating construction standards. Same with industrial safety, engineering standards, electricity etc. Groups like ANSI, IEEE, ASME, ASHRAE, etc etc are examples of non government groups of people doing good work to get a specific goal accomplished.   

       But let me see if I can answer those questions.   

       1- Well, what stops a small fire from becoming a big fire? Lots of things, lack of heat, oxygen or fuel. What stops a small group from becoming a big dangerous group? Nobody shows up for the big torch parade I guess.   

       2- Manage the ruling body with democratic control by the population that this body seeks to rule over. Sounds like a circle logic but it's not. If we're going to create a big monster, let's have control over it so it doesn't turn on us. Government is a big monster to be controlled by us and not the other way around. If it gets out of control, that's when the bodies start to pile up.   

       3- People do voluntarily get along and agree to things. See #1 for all those private organizations that make rules for how to do stuff. Real stuff like keeping the power on and preventing buildings from burning down, not phony government stuff where the politician promises you everything you could ever dream of if you just give enough power.   

       4- Yes.   

       5- I'd do the moral thing and tell the government to piss off.   

       By the way, the terms "fuck off" and "piss off" don't make any sense. How does one fuck off? Do they fuck and then leave or fuck while they're leaving because walking while having sex sounds problematic. And who exactly do they fuck? Do they "piss off" by urinating as the walk away? Maybe writing on the sidewalk in pee about how wrong they were as they go?   

       Thank you, I'll be here all week. They make a great margarita here and be sure to try the salad bar.   

       //Details on request.//   

       Sure, always open to good ideas. Let's hear it.   

       Hey Pashute, being creative and recording a song, that's awesome! Some cool lyrics there!
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       There is a neat theory that swearing involves different brain pathways from other types of speech; specifically, the brain pathways that other primates use for alarm calls. As Jordan Peterson puts it, when a chimpanzee makes a particular sound it's effectively saying "Fuck! A snake!"   

       The "four letter" words are also very, very old and describe basic, physical, bodily things. I wonder if "Fuck you!" relates deeply to the dominance manouvres that occur in prison shower rooms ... Humans are kind of fucked up.   

       "Fuck off!" would just be an economical way to say "Have you seen that movie Deliverance? Yes? Well then may I suggest that you kindly refrain from testing my boundaries any further. Thank you."   

       The translation in the other direction - less verbose, more primal - would be a 500 pound gorilla charging at you, screaming, with bared teeth, and sporting a huge erection ... a well-deserved, spontanious "fuck off" can have the same effect. I speak from experience. It was two weeks ago, only it was "Get the fuck off my property!", and I was sporting a huge, black USMC combat knife. Three workmen from the building site next door literally ran away from me as if their lives depended on it, which they did. They had been testing my boundaries in various figurative senses for a while, and when one crossed my boundary in a more literal sense I discovered my inner silverback :).
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       //4) If you were given the offer: a) you will never be forced to fund or support anything that you don't agree with, but in return b) you will never advocate that anyone else be forced to fund or support anything they don't agree with, would you accept?//   

       It sounds nice but every man can't be king, and ANY group of people are going to disagree on some group action and someone is going to have to decide. So groups of humans generally select one person to decide those controversial issues. Without groups decisions being made against someone's will there can be no collective action and without collective action there can be no society. You can have a king or a vote or an elected king, and that's pretty much it. And supporting any of those will result in you advocating something someone else doesn't like and them having to go along with it. Ayn Rand was an idiot.
Voice, Nov 12 2020
  

       //You can have a king or a vote or an elected king, and that's pretty much it.//   

       You left out strange women lying in ponds distributing swords. Anyway, thanks for your response. I'll dictate a note to my secretary...   

       <knitting> [Voice] ... first ... against ... wall</knitting>   

       Your cooperation is appreciated.
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       //I wonder if "Fuck you!" relates deeply to the dominance manouvres that occur in prison shower rooms ... Humans are kind of fucked up.//   

       Unfortunately, I can't un-read that but I'm afraid you might be right. And now, I may never be able to use my favorite term again without wincing.   

       //would be a 500 pound gorilla charging at you, screaming, with bared teeth, and sporting a huge erection ...//   

       Although I'm laughing out loud at your description, again, I'm wishing I could "un-read" things.   

       Obviously we're given a great deal of latitude on how to use "fuck" in nonsensical aggressive sentences, so let's explore. Somebody comes up to you and says "Hey asshole, give me some money for my political party! They hate you and I do too!":   

       1- "DON'T FUCK!" This would be telling the person not to have sex, either because you don't want them to reproduce or because you don't want they engaging any any pleasurable activity. It would have the bonus of confusing the person for a moment that you could use to punch them in the face.   

       2- "FUCK THE FUCK!" I don't know what this means but it sounds horrible so there's that. Plus it's go that "Huh?" thing going for it.   

       3- "THAT'S FUCK!". Not sure why, but it seems to be saying what the person said wasn't valid. "It's fuck".   

       4- And the weirdest one: 'AAAAAAND FUCK!". Like a director when he says "Aaaaaand... ACTION!" Doesn't mean anything but again, with the magic word "fuck" it doesn't have to.   

       I think "Fuck" might just be the human equivalent a dog's bark. The translation might be "Woof!"
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       [doc], given your examples of nongovernmental bodies that promote standards, I couldn't help but notice that these are all essentially engineering bodies. Engineering is a world in which its physics-basis ensures that the solutions found to any such problem are basically similar world-wide. Optimal solutions, or at least the least bad solutions, to engineering problems tend to converge towards similarity if they are given similar constraint sets. They're efficient that way. Other than the shape of the outlet plugs, everyone agrees that the optimal place to have electricity is on the wall and that electrons should do the work and not gamma rays or protons or tiny wooly mammoths.   

       Where your analogue breaks down is that the world of geopolitics is very different than the world of engineering. There are essential conflicts driven by limited resources and opposing goals, and the solution created by one self- interested nation is not going to appear anything like the solution created by another self-interested nation. The Venn diagram of solutions that satisfies everyone probably doesn't converge.   

       Hence, conflicts and bodies. Not until you solve the resource problem will that change significantly.   

       Oh, and just so everyone's aware, gorillas have tiny little penises, because they don't need them to be big.
RayfordSteele, Nov 12 2020
  

       As far as the political bodies thing goes, Ann Rand etc, I'd just like to be part of a system where I'm not always the one paying for everything and getting nothing. Although I guess I'm up there in the money department on a national scale, because of where I live I'm not by any means rich and I come from a very poor background, yet the government has never given me anything and takes about a third of what I make. That would be fine if I had some say in what they do with my money but I largely don't and I disagree with most of what they do with it.   

       Although I am very happy that they made the middle east a paradise on earth with the trillions of dollars of taxpayer money, that was a pretty good investment. I also like it how they love us over there now for the sacrifices we've made so I guess I shouldn't complain. Good job government!
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       I bet you paid a lot more in tax than the $750 of your president. He prefers to give his money to China, from where he also orders all the steel that builds his golf palaces and other rubbish.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Seeing as how you live in Taxifornia, that is entirely understandable.   

       We do have states where that ratio is significantly improved, you know...
RayfordSteele, Nov 12 2020
  

       [Voice] is right - you can't have any kind of group action without some loss of personal choice, for yourself or someone else.   

       Forget groups of people for a moment, even temporally, the choices you make with total free will today will impose those choices on anyone following after. If you freely elect to dig a hole, your children or grandchildren will have to take steps to avoid falling into it - man isn't an island, geographically or chonographically and there's no escaping our own personal responsibilities, however much we might like to.   

       Maybe you don't intend to have children, or are the last person alive, you're still trapped by the consequences of your choices. If you eat a cake, you can't come back later to eat it again. Our actions, even in the most spartan thought experiments, inescapably curtail our own freedoms.   

       The simplicity of raw libertarianism falls at the first hurdle. That doesn't mean freedom is lost, or that we should immediately implement our own version of the Russian Gulags - it just means that fundamentally, the pure ideal version of the idea is flawed. Instead, we need a way to both curtail and respect people's personal freedoms such that *overall* the population's freedoms are maximised. Again, most people would tend to agree with this in principle, if not necessarily on the specific details.   

       But [drremulac] asks "What are we trying to do here specifically?" I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd just like to get to a point, calmly and objectively, where everyone can agree that once you brush aside the deliberate and emotional misinformation, that any support for Donald Trump is an irrational position to continue to hold.   

       And in the process, I'm looking out for clues as to understanding whether, after blowing away those emotional cobwebs and concocted notions about communists and "leftism", there is anything rational or defendable in adopting a pro-Trump stance. People are entitled to feel whatever emotions they wish, of course, but like the whaler's barrel analogy, I'd still suggest they're not the best means of establishing the optimal choice in an election type situation. Maybe it's just tribal affiliation, and identity politics, and if you feel you're on the Red team, or the Blue team, then whoever they put up for election is the one you'll sign up for. There must be something going on, because it seems like madness that after 4 years, the result could come so close, and to be honest, that's something to worry about, because if Trump could nearly win, then anyone could.   

       Also [pashute] nice tunes. And [pertinax] yes please! I'm always interested in hearing what you might have to say on anything, it's usually illuminating, [even if/especially when] uncomfortable at times to have ideas challenged by a well thought-through alternative point of view.
zen_tom, Nov 12 2020
  

       Believe me, I'm looking, as is everybody else.   

       I've been to all the states several times except 4. Vermont, New Hampshire, Main and Alaska and those all seem to be calling me.   

       My ex business partner is moving to one of those but decided to keep his Los Angeles hills mansion so they can continue to "summer" in California. I'm not a two state person at this point but I would seriously consider all sorts of alternatives if I didn't have family here. I'll move out of Silicon Valley at some point but I have to be by the beach so I'll guess I'll continue to pay like I'm rich and live like I'm not. Or I could move to where my dad was born, Mountain Grove Missouri, live in a 5,000 square foot estate and have a live in butler and maid. Then I could wait for the eventual release of death as I sat in the foyer saying "What the fuck have I done? I hate it here!".   

       No, California is like an abusive spouse you can't leave. Yes, it beats me over the head with a tire iron but it sure is pretty.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       I love California, some breathtaking and seemingly more landscape options than any other country on earth. Desert, mountains, beaches, redwood forests, vineyards, mega-cities and San Francisco. A Californian roadtrip is like driving between every planet in Star Wars.
zen_tom, Nov 12 2020
  

       Or you could move to Copenhagen, where year after year surveys show their citizens to be the happiest on the planet, especially the young people. There are many other cool places in Europe from where the division, stupidity, chaos, anger and hatred that now characterises Trumpland America will quickly fade into background noise.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       I've been to Copenhagen as well as your beautiful country, they're both very nice. Have you ever been here?
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       Many times. Lived for a while in San Francisco on Potero Hill. Have friend in Hacienda Heights in Los Angeles. Travelled extensively throughout USA, lived and worked in NYC. Travelled cost to coast driving, on buses in planes and hitchhiked several times. Did lecture tour etc. Won't go back again until entire place decontaminated from Trump.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Where were the stops on your lecture tour? What was the lecture about?   

       Where did you hitchike and what year? I ask because hitchiking doesn't happen here and stopped on a particular year because of a particular event.   

       Very familiar with Potrero hill, what was your favorite restaurant there?
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       Likewise - lived in Silicon Valley for three and a half years. California is a lovely place. I have also been to two of the four states [drremulac] hasn't been to.
hippo, Nov 12 2020
  

       Michigan has very nice beaches. We also have forests, (although not redwoods), much lower costs of living, no hurricanes or forest fires or earthquakes or Santa Ana winds, space to stretch out a bit, vineyards, cherries, apples, hunting season, fairly loose gun laws, less traffic, terrible roads, cold winters, weeks of gray skies, unpredictable weather, old infrastructure, crappy sports teams...
RayfordSteele, Nov 12 2020
  

       //Very familiar with Potrero hill, what was your favorite restaurant there//Fav places nearby - Blooms bar, and Rosevelts Tamali Parlour (23rd Street across the freeway) Both may be gone by now. Hitchhike was so long ago I won't give the year, but I was young, and had very long hair, which I subsequently cut off and made into a rat that lived in the icebox of the fridge. Lectures were about art business. That's as much as I'll say.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Well Xen, sounds like you're an incredibly well traveled person. Most people I know that are so well traveled have nice things to say about the people and places they've experienced. Personally, I've cherished my travels around the world in my youth and am very thankful to have met so many kind, interesting and wonderful people from so many different cultures as a young man. Guess I'm just lucky.   

       //Likewise - lived in Silicon Valley for three and a half years. California is a lovely place. I have also been to two of the four states [drremulac] hasn't been to.//   

       I don't know why I glorify Main, Vermont, New Hampsire and Alaska so much. Postcards I've seen I guess. Gonna see them in that order though.   

       And Ray, I love Michigan. Very good experiences there. I didn't work during the winter which I understand is a bit of a challenge, so every place I experienced was during the summer months. That's why, while I like the much maligned people down south, I couldn't ever survive the summers there. Humid as hell.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       RayfordSteele, you forgot to mention the tornados. Unless you were wrapping that under "unpredictable weather." And combining that with "crappy roads" we only have two seasons - winter and road construction. Tornados most common in later part of road construction season.
kdf, Nov 12 2020
  

       Never saw a tornado I'm sorry to say. Drove around with some kind of warning channel on looking at a wierd purple sky once in Oaklahoma I think it was.   

       Biggest travel tragedy was missing a Space Shuttle launch by one day.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       I saw one on way across Nebraska. It was far away, but still terrifying.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       I hear California has changed a lot in the past 50 years.
sninctown, Nov 12 2020
  

       Ohhh yea. Supposedly the most progressive socialist friendly city in America is San Francisco and the disparity between the rich and the poor is like nothing you've ever seen. Massive mansions and people living on the street in as bad condition as in any poor 3rd world country.   

       I've lived there in the past and I'm sorry to say, SF has turned into a shithole. Not a prettier city on Earth from afar, but get down into the streets and you won't believe your eyes.   

       Hey socialists, first let's take care of these homeless people with all the money we have here then we can see about extending these great programs to the rest of the country. And don't blame Republicans for this, as you well know, there ARE no Republicans in power in the Bay Area. You Democrats run everything.   

       San Francisco is the single wealthiest and most progressive third world shithole on Earth.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       Idea marked for completion - Trump found hiding out in the guise of a statue in Spain! See link.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Yes, let's talk about Trump rather than helping people who are dying in the streets.   

       Sorry homeless, you don't vote so we don't care about you. I've spend a lot of time suggesting ways to combat this human disaster but if it ain't about Trump it's not a topic for discussion.   

       Think I'll pass on clicking the link thanks.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       In case you forgot, the idea I posted is a song about how Trump has gone missing and with any luck will end up in prison for his criminality. Ideas about the homeless of San Francisco is entirely another matter, but ultimately is an outcome of excessive greed, which is America's dominant ethos, so therein lies the solution. Meanwhile, treat yourself to a laugh at the link. All it lacks is a coat of orange paint and it's The Gump Himself.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Just to balance things out, I've seen homelessness in lots of places - I don't think the Democrats have a monopoly on that particular problem. Also, taking your hyperbolic usage of "socialists" to mean "democrats", the slightly less right-leaning option in your two party system.   

       I think [DR] you're oversimplifying a complicated problem. Homelessness is born from 2 or 3 factors, a strong metropolitan draw (homeless people often move to cities from elsewhere, looking for opportunity), high competition for entry-level work, high or rising local property prices. When you get all 3 of those things, chances are, you're going to experience some degree of homelessness. Counter-intuitively, those 3 factors are all normally considered positives from a different point of view, since they suggest vibrancy, growth and a stimulated economy.   

       The solutions are different from the causes, which in turn sets up an intractable moral hazard kind of problem, which (possibly) might (especially if you're right-leaning economically) express as a 4th contributing factor. People can migrate towards locations where they believe they will be looked after by a functioning welfare system.   

       The jury is out on the best possible solution, but I don't think parroting "democrats are to blame" is likely to be up there on the list.   

       And [xenzag] apologies if I've helped steer your idea off topic - just genuinely looking for some authentic responses about the perceived pro-Trump viewpoint. I do think it's fascinating to try and understand the draw. We've our own similar problems at home in the UK.
zen_tom, Nov 12 2020
  

       I'd venture to guess that San Francisco's problems are bigger than what parties are presently equipped to deal with. Never been there, but I suspect it's a victim of its own success with most of the destitute priced out of reasonable accommodations. Combine that with a chill California attitude towards drugs and 60's nonsense that I can and will blame Democrats for, and its a recipe for nightmare. IMHO Silicon Valley needs to disperse and learn the benefits of working remotely or in smaller cities.   

       California itself could maybe do better under a 3-state breakup.   

       Maybe with the right sort of motivation*, you could get some of those homeless / jobless to go out and work in the fields?   

       Once again [zen] beats me to the punch with a better explanation than I can manage to type out.   

       *8th of 7's department.
RayfordSteele, Nov 12 2020
  

       //but ultimately is an outcome of excessive greed, which is America's dominant ethos//   

       I think people who obsessively insult somebody's country are inherently lousy people.   

       //California itself could maybe do better under a 3- state breakup.//   

       We tried a 4 state breakup. No luck. Power would be more fairly distributed among the people, can't have that.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       Definition of greed: always wanting more of something, even when you have plenty already, and not willing to share your wealth or possessions. Example of extreme greed - paying only $750 in tax while claiming to be a billionaire.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Wonder what you'd say to the families of brave soldiers who came to Europe and died fighting the Nazis on your behalf. Speaking of which, what's your proposed "final solution" to deal with these evil American people? Do you go for the torture deaths you fantasize about with Trump or more efficient zyklon B assembly lines style genocide?
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       I'm ashamed to say I used to be anti-american. Met this couple from Munich (North Dakota, I think) in Thialand. Snapped me right out of it. They were two of the coolest, smartest, kindest people I've met.   

       I agree, it's silly to be hating on a whole group of people, or a whole geographical area. Everywhere there are people who are respectful, and people who are looking to rip you off or do you in. That's the distinction that matters to me.   

       "There are two kinds of people in the world: those who wish to be left alone, and those who will not leave them alone." - Ernest Hancock.
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       Well I wouldn't describe the ones who died as "suckers and losers" as only the lowest of the low would use those words. In case you didn't know, America sat on its hands for most of WW2 while hundreds of thousands of British and Commonwealth combatants faced down the Nazis unaided. This included members of my family. Meanwhile Nazism via numerous militias like the Proud Boys are flourishing in America and guess who they all support? - Captain Bonespur.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       So [xenxag], what do you think about Donald Trump?
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       Before or after his imprisonment?
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       //America sat on its hands for most of WW2//   

       We supported you guys from the very start with lend lease then with blood, 100,000 brave American soldiers died protecting you. My grandfather's brother piloted a B24 Liberator in bombing raids over Germany.   

       You're xenophobia is disgusting.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       //Before or after imprisonment?// Oh, sorry to hear about that. I guess you'll have plenty of time to think while you're inside. Just don't pick up the soap.
spidermother, Nov 12 2020
  

       In WWII there were 384,000 British soldiers killed in combat, with a civilian death toll of 70,000. Now answer the question as to who described Americans who died in combat as "suckers and losers"?
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       I've asked you several questions and you haven't answered one.   

       What method of genocide for Americans do you dream of, slow and painful or quick and efficient? Have you come up with a method of disposing of our piles of corpses that won't increase your carbon footprint? Your type can't use ovens any more.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       Global warming will destroy the coastal regions of America through the rise in sea level, and super storm systems again caused by man made climate change will devastate large areas. Combine this with catastrophic forest fires, drought, and civil unrest due to millions of racist maniacs having millions of guns and America will simply destroy itself from within. Failure to deal with the pandemic has them in complete chaos. The rest of the world has moved on and America's relevance is on the skids.
xenzag, Nov 12 2020
  

       Aaaand I think this is where the season should end. It's been fun, all. Now, can we get back to silly inventions or something?
RayfordSteele, Nov 12 2020
  

       LOL.   

       Yes please. Thank you Ray.   

       Let's get back to stuff like, an ice cream maker that can be used as a pencil sharpener.   

       I'll close in saying, Xen, I would still defend you if somebody tried to hurt you. I might not hang out and chat after you were safe, but well, it's what we do.   

       Now I'm going to go see if there are any new "Why?"s are on my "Why?" idea post and call it a day.
doctorremulac3, Nov 12 2020
  

       //Details on request//   

       Sorry, [doc] and [zen] - I was kidding. My point was, the discussion had become so wide-ranging that any "answer" by that point would have to be encyclopedic (and would probably include repetitions of points I've already made elsewhere). That was meant to be a sort of joke. I guess I need to work on my delivery. :-)
pertinax, Nov 12 2020
  

       Yeah, I liked it when we were talking about gorilla penises. Then it started to wander off topic.
spidermother, Nov 13 2020
  

       It's just the nature of everything connected to the pervert Gump to drift towards turbulence. Once he dupes enough cash from his brainless followers, he'll run off with their money; be fully absorbed by the fruit cakes of Qanon, and not heard of again.
xenzag, Nov 13 2020
  

       Maybe then he won't take up so much of your headspace then?
RayfordSteele, Nov 13 2020
  
      
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