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The recent emphasis on male narcissism as evidenced by the "wax, don't shave" discussion has reminded me of my urban upbringing and the styles of yesteryear. There was a class of 'cool guy' ( to me, anyway, I was 10 or 11) who wore black pegged pants with a 1/2" belt, white socks, pointy black shoes
we called cockroach killers because they could reach into corners, and a light white, ribbed, sleeveless, open-necked undergarment that we called a wife beater. The hair was a waterfall of shiny curls and tipped up at the back. This look was perfected and became the uniform for what was then called hoodlums and vandals.
Given the current toxic male predilection to denude, smooth, and pamper every square inch themselves, and taking into consideration the total lack of decorum, manners, not to mention good taste, I propose a line of men's casual clothing meant to take advantage of this fad while it lasts.
The WifeBeater brand will be known as the UnderArmor killer, taking market share just on the name itself. Prominent MMA stars interviewed by Sly Stallone, all wearing the signature Arctic White WifeBeater OG Original ($92.50), will flex and preen. Nothing shows off a perfect, totally hairless, waxed and oiled torso and arms like a WifeBeater! Even slim hoodlums leaning back on brick walls look great in WifeBeaters.
Soon to introduce a feminine line of Lady WifeBeaters, betting on the highly charged baggage that name will create. If there's enough hue and cry we'll rename it Lady BallBusters. And next will be Kiddy WifeBeaters to start a new generation of MasterBeaters. We'll spin this out indefinitely. There are always enough narcissists to depend on for support. You just have to know the fad.
Rab C. Nesbitt
https://m.media-ama...M1ODI0Mw@@._V1_.jpg
"Eye will tell yew this" [Loris, Sep 14 2023]
Wife beater search trends since 2004
https://trends.goog...eater%20shirt&hl=en
[doctorremulac3, Sep 15 2023]
Are We Really Still Calling This Shirt a ‘Wife Beater’?
https://www.nytimes...-a-wife-beater.html
Article about origin of the term 'wifebeater' for clothing. [Loris, Sep 16 2023]
San Francisco Examiner, 1979
https://ibb.co/SKHTh1Z
[a1, Oct 15 2023, last modified Oct 16 2023]
[link]
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So that was in the early 90s? That's when the term wifebeater became popular. |
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That must have been a reprise of its name in the mid 50s. I never knew another name for the garment. |
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It actually wasn't from the 50s. When did you first hear it? It's first appearance in literature was early 90s according to Websters. There's a reason I'm assuming you were calling them those in the early 90s or later. |
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[Doc], wikipedia suggests otherwise. As [minoradjustments] also recalls seeing the Mona Lisa at the Met in 1963, his nostalgic turns seem to be consistent. |
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He might even be older than I am. |
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{peers quizzically at [a1], scuttles off to recalibrate radiocarbon dating device} |
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In the UK we call those vests. They have rather different connotations, being associated with Rab C. Nesbitt, a stereotypical articulate but barely comprehensible Scotsman. |
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//wikipedia suggests otherwise (link).// |
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Well aware of that. That "explanation" as to where the term came from appeared after the early 90s. |
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Yea, bros on the street in the Bronx called a t-shirt "waif beaters" because they recalled that ancient term. Uh huh. |
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"claim was spread by Paul Davidson, a film-maker, in a blog post" Double Uh huh. |
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And if it was from the 40s, how come it appeared in print for the very first time in 93 and 94? |
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So again, minor adjustments, you were using this term after the early 90s right? |
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You could be right [Doc], Good job on cross-checking references. How did you come up with the 1993-94 first appearance in print? Do you have an exact one in mind or did you infer this it from something like google NGram? |
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Also - are you calling into question [minoradjustment]'s entire account from his youth, or just that they "retconned" their memory of using that term? The latter is quite common among people of a certain age. |
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I thought this was going to be an idea for a type of egg beater only for wives. |
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//are you calling into question [minoradjustment]'s entire account from his youth// |
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Why would you think I'm calling his account of his youth into question? Not everybody comes here looking for a fight. I'm assuming he heard it after 93, 94. Either way he's the one that would know that, not me. It's a friendly question. |
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I didn't know what you were going for - that's why I asked. |
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// a type of egg beater only for wives // |
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Would it combine DNA sampling with checking for a wedding ring? It might still trip up on some modern relationship types. |
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Well. You had to be there. Speakers from Connecticut, the New York boroughs, New Jersey, and Philadelphian argot, whether part of the written record or not, will certainly verify its use in the mid-50s. Anywhere spaghetti sauce is referred to as 'gravy.' Maybe I should have gone to see the Bugs Bunny exhibit. I'm older than anyone. I can tell. |
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The wiki entry for Tank Top: "The term wife-beater reportedly became synonymous for an undershirt after a 1947 criminal case where a Detroit man was arrested for beating his wife to death, and newspapers printed a photo of the "wife beater" wearing a stained undershirt." I do lie, but not here. |
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Okay, so you actually heard it used in the 50s, okay. Weird that it's never made it to any movies or literature thought but you were there back then so you'd be the one to know. |
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// Maybe I should have gone to see the Bugs Bunny exhibit. // |
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If I had to choose one or the other, yeah - I would have preferred to see Bugs Bunny. |
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As for tracking down word usages, in some ways the internet makes it easier - to clear things up OR to confuse them. |
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// I'm older than anyone. // |
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I wouldn't advertise that fact. Look what happened to the Howard Families. |
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So minor, you could make a bit of history here by clearing up the general impression that it's from the 90s. Here's the editor from the Oxford English dictionary: |
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"In a 2001 interview with The New York Times, Jesse Shiedlower, then principal editor of Oxford English Dictionary’s American office, said wife beater started signifying the undershirt around 1997 with the rise of “rap, gay, and gang subcultures.” In 1998—a year after the term’s introduction into the American lexicon—The Orlando Sentinel published an article about parents’ concern with the offensive slang term. One year later, the Washington Post wrote about the “‘in’ shirt with the outre name.” " |
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Like I said, first documented appearance in literature was 93, 94. Very weird for a popular term to never get written down then suddenly it explodes everywhere. Could happen I guess, just kind of curious. |
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Hey, be part of history, if the genesis of a particular lexicon is being misrepresented, get the truth out there. |
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Could be another explanation, in your group people used it but it didn't get widespread for decades. Possible I guess. |
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//Given the current toxic male predilection to denude, smooth, and pamper every square inch themselves// |
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I'm just going to point out the misandry inherent in this. And in the term "male narcissism". Flip the genders and I wouldn't be able to post those things here. Well, maybe here as -- very surprisingly to me -- freedom of speech seems to be pretty good but not most places. Not without getting banned. |
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Let's try it: Female narcissism. Toxic female predilection to denude, smooth, and pamper every square inch of themselves |
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As for the idea, [-] rant. not because of the abovementioned misandrous tone but because it's just not much of an idea. |
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[Voice] Very open interactions can explain. I don't hate men; I am one. I have always thought that men were more vain than women. Women have historically taken much better care of their appearance than men, which proves my point. Men think they are irresistible in whatever shape they show up. Until recently. |
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I find the primping and fussing very entertaining, and some of the results should be modeled, or encased, in wax. |
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//I have always thought that men were more vain than women. Women have historically taken much better care of their appearance than men// |
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So when women do it, it's just women being women. When men do it, it's narcissism. |
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Don't get me wrong, I kind of agree, but that's because I like a smooth, pampered, and denuded woman. |
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It's the difference between tactics and strategy. No blame. |
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//I have always thought that men were more vain than women. Women have historically taken much better care of their appearance than men, which proves my point. Men think they are irresistible in whatever shape they show up. Until recently.// |
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Bit of a Catch 22, then. If men attempt to improve their appearance, they're vain. But if they don't, it's because they think they're already very attractive, so they're vain.
Some call this Morton's Fork. |
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[Loris] Let other reasons illustrate something. Humans are all vain; men a bit more than women. I’m talking as a species, not a neurosis or original sin. Females have developed methods for getting the best mates using complicated tactical exercises that have evolved over time. Vain males have assumed they are a gift to women, not realizing the power is not really theirs. |
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Vanity and narcissism are different things. You can primp and fuss and not like yourself very much. Don’t you know anyone like this? |
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[Doc] Don’t overthink coincidence. If the incident took place in Detroit in 1947 and we were using the term 10 years later on the east coast it was not a local tribal thing. If I was devoted to researching this I could, no doubt, find written or film references that evaded Jesse Sheidlower and his very contemporary and recent attribution to “rap, gay, and gang culture.” The actual roots on the east coast were in do-wop, Sinatra, the Philly Stomp, Brillcream, and harmonizing in the men’s room. So Sheidlower was only 50 years off. Except for the gay thing. |
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It's certainly very possible that this weird term came up in different places at different times. It certainly clicks with the average person, nobody ever said "That's a wife beater shirt" and had somebody say "Hu?". The explanation that it came from a newspaper article from the 40s is schetchy. Nobody alive saw that article, I haven't, you haven't, nobody here has. If it gave birth to the term it sure took lot of decades for somebody to actually put in into a book, movie or TV show. |
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I think it's an interesting subject. Where do words come from? Important to remember, whether it's a mispronunciation of an existing word or a new term completely, every word ever spoken by man has somebody who spoke it first. But there are other factors in the genealogy or evolution of words, it gaining widespread usage for instance. For the term wifebeater shirt, the latter clearly happened in the early 90s. |
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But as I've always said, all that's needed is one recording or example of that term in writing during all those decades between that newspaper article and the early 90s. A local term that didn't catch on? Sure. A term worthy of being in the dictionary? That happened in the early 90s unless there's evidence otherwise. |
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Here's the good news. Realllllllly easy to disprove that theory (and it is a theory). One single reference to it recorded during that half century. I'd put that out there as a challenge. |
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One thing for sure, it certainly clicked. (Bun for bringing up an interesting subject, even if that wasn't your goal) [+] |
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[Doc] Difference of concerns. Go for it. If this is your project I wish you luck, knowing you will find some filmic capo using the term in what might be a black and white movie or Dion and the Belmonts wearing wifebeaters at a sock hop. Warm up the viewing apparatus and have at it. |
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I'd need motivation, maybe a bet but then somebody else would have to do the work. |
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Checked Google search trends (link) and just shows a graph going up but doesn't go back far enough to be of any use. |
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By the way, there's something sort of interesting about this boring subject. The "waif beater" thing what was printed as true for years that I always know on it's face was BS? |
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"Paul Davidson, a film-maker, in a blog post where he claimed that the term had evolved from a medieval chain mail undergarment called a "waif-beater," and this was picked up as fact by other outlets. Davidson openly admitted in 2018 that the waif-beater story was bogus, created to trick people who believed unquestioningly anything they read on the Internet." |
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The place to look for that sort of thing is dictionaries. They really care about when words were first used in what context. |
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dictionary.com says this for "wifebeater":
::ORIGIN OF WIFEBEATER
First recorded in 1650–60 for def. 1 and in 1990–95 for def. 2; wife + beater:: |
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where the definitions are:
1 a man who beats his wife.
2 Slang: Offensive. a white, sleeveless, close-fitting man’s undershirt, often worn as an outer shirt. |
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Realistically, if you can't find a dictionary claiming otherwise, any evidence is likely to be quite esoteric, if it exists at all. |
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Y'know, if [minoradjustment]'s or anyone else says they recall and used a slang expression in their youth, it seems sort of ridiculous to say "oh no you didn't." |
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Slang expressions can exist for a long time before making it into print or other media. An expression used in one region may be unheard of elsewhere for a long time, and there's a lag between when a slang word may move from various media into a dictionary. And pre-internet - that great diffuser of language and culture - all of those paths took longer. |
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But even if you did insist (in ridiculous fashion) that the usage didn't exist until someone wrote it down - I'd have to wonder about that dictionary reference saying "1990-1995" dating and doc's mention the other days "1993-94 first appearance" |
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There could only be one "first," right? |
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//Y'know, if [minoradjustment]'s or anyone else says they recall and used a slang expression in their youth, it seems sort of ridiculous to say "oh no you didn't."// |
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The only thing more ridiculous would be to imagine someone ever said that. Nobody ever said anything even remotely close to that. This was clearly an expression that was popular where he lived in his youth. |
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Reading the actual words, it’s a wonderful thing if you can do it. |
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Pretty close [doc]. In three different annotations yesterday (9/14): |
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"So that was in the early 90s?" |
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"It actually wasn't from the 50s. When did you first hear it?" |
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"So again, minor adjustments, you were using this term after the early 90s right?" |
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After [minoradjustments] replied a second time on region and time frame, you halfway conceded |
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"Okay, so you actually heard it used in the 50s, okay. Weird that it's never made it to any movies or literature though..." |
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To me that sounds like you still don't believe him, but hey, it's hard to get into someone true mindset from a few words on screen. |
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//Y'know, if [minoradjustment]'s or anyone else says they recall and used a slang expression in their youth, it seems sort of ridiculous to say "oh no you didn't."// |
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The trouble is, memory isn't all that reliable. Even large groups of people can remember something incorrectly - it's called the Mandela effect.
Which isn't to say that minoradjustments is wrong - a word is often going to be used fairly widely before it's written down - at least, anywhere it will be preserved - but I would say it's not unreasonable to require evidence to be /convinced/ as opposed to extending the benefit of the doubt. |
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A1, you’re an idiot. I asked when he said it guessing the timeframe on multiple occasions. The first time he elucidated it I accepted it obviously. God you’re obnoxious. |
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[Loris] Leaving out reasons is suspect? And why is it down to me to prove anything? I was there. Go fish. If my memory is faulty or the result of magical thinking I can live with it. I prefer to. It's all I've got. It's a good story and it put a burr under your saddle, so call it even [+][-]. |
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Well I buy it.
Wifebeater would have been an extremely derogatory term and wouldn't have made it into print or film back then.
They had some class. |
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That’s actually a good point. |
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//But even if it seems reasonable to ask for proof - how would you find proof of a usage that wasn’t written down anywhere?// |
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If it were my job (it's not, it's the lexicographer's), I would be looking for it to be written down, or possibly used in context in a film or audio recording of some sort.
Diaries and private correspondence seem to be acceptable sources - see for example the first attested use of OMG ("Oh My God") in 1917.
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//[Loris] Leaving out reasons is suspect?// |
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//And why is it down to me to prove anything?// |
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You make a claim, it's up to you to substantiate it. That's how it works. |
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//I was there. Go fish. If my memory is faulty or the result of magical thinking I can live with it. I prefer to. It's all I've got. It's a good story and it put a burr under your saddle, so call it even [+][-].// |
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You seem to think that I'm annoyed. I'm actually just commenting on the abstract theory. I don't have a problem with what you believe, but if something seems under-supported, I may point that out. |
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//Wifebeater would have been an extremely derogatory term and wouldn't have made it into print or film back then.// |
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Without checking myself, I imagine there really was a newspaper image of a guy in a vest in Detroit in 1947 with the legend "wifebeater". This is however considered to refer to the primary usage though i.e. domestic abuse. We can infer that it's not a taboo word - that is, it's not censored for general sensibilities. This puts it ahead of many words which were flat out banned, yet still there is copious evidence of useage for.
To use a word, particularly in writing, the communicator will generally want to be reasonably confident that the word would be understood by the recipient, or it doesn't get used. If a word isn't used at all, it doesn't count. |
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Given all that, it seems unlikely to me that the word was widely used with no documented evidence for over 30 years. I can believe it was used parochially. But I can also consider alternatives as plausible. E.g. in the early 90s, when there was a fad for wearing clothing in this style, someone saw this archived newspaper report, joked about it with their friends, and it caught on as a word - first locally, then throughout the USA.
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Wikipedia kind of implies continuity of the second usage from 1947 - but only with articles from 2018 and later, and of those, none back it up. One makes the claim with no evidence, the second is from a dictionary and says it's not true, and the third says it's a popular claim in the blogosphere but has no evidence and is probably a myth - they couldn't find the original wifebeater article from 1947 in news archives. And also some other evidence that it originated in the 90s which I won't repeat; I'll link the article directly instead. |
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[Loris] Lacking other resources I'm stymied. |
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(Rewritten to expand on an earlier versuon) |
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Snopes recently referenced an essay from 1979 that mentions someone wearing a "wife-beater undershirt. I've linked a clipping. |
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As [Loris] pointed out "To use a word, particularly in writing, the communicator will generally want to be reasonably confident that the word would be understood by the recipient. " The 1979 piece should be convincing to anyone that the term was used and understood well before that. |
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I also find it interesting that other dictionaries and online sources missed this one. I'm happy that Snopes found it. I'm sure there are earlier references that would be even harder to find - and think it very likely it was used in slang as far back as [minoradjustment] recalls. |
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I thought I did, let me check. |
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Edit: I thought I found a 1951 reference but deleted it. It was published in a digest of cases covering a long time period and I got the date wrong (embarrassed!). |
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I left the 1979 clipping up though. Isn't that a lovely, evocative bit of writing? |
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[a1] “sullen amusement” goes perfectly with wifebeaters. |
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The essay isn't about clothes though, it's about how this unnamed west coast town is affected by gas prices and shortages. And he doesn't have to explain what a wife-beater IS, clearly his audience in 1979 already understood it. I'm delighted Snopes found it and really surprised OED and other reference sources thought the origin was so much later. |
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I'm eager to see if I can find an even earlier one. |
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