Half a croissant, on a plate, with a sign in front of it saying '50c'
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Vacs Elite

Dose those zombies, but a kill is still a needed last resort.
  (+1, -8)(+1, -8)
(+1, -8)
  [vote for,
against]

In this first person shooter the object is bring people back to health. The world is in disarray, the more people to help the rebuild the better.

The problem faced, is a quick decision. Is this zombie to far gone? Wrong choice and it is a wasted vaccine cartridge. They are cost lives to produce, you know. Bosses obviously need to be put down as they are not recoverable* and are incredibly infectious, totally defeating humanities stabilizing climb.

Team up, as any good human should do. Can you doctor the zombie apocalypse?, with a vacs gun. .

.

.

.

* or are they?

wjt, Sep 26 2021

This idea from Vernon is this wjt's idea from the other end of the telescope Sterilization_20for_20the_20Pseudo-Dead
also, it's not a videogame, which makes it pretty repulsive imo [calum, Sep 27 2021]

The Guardian (British Newspaper) https://www.theguar...rotest-ban-unlawful
I would recommend The Guardian as a trustworthy non-government source of investigative journalism [Frankx, Sep 28 2021]

Full Fact organisation https://fullfact.or...utm_medium=trending
Full Fact is a registered charity who "fact check claims made by politicians, public institutions and journalists, as well as viral content online." [Frankx, Sep 28 2021]

Snopes https://www.snopes....-reliable-resource/
"it’s the oldest and largest fact-checking site online, widely regarded by journalists, folklorists, and readers as an invaluable research companion" [Frankx, Sep 28 2021]

Pro-Truth https://www.protruthpledge.org/
to encourage politicians – and everyone else – to commit to truth-oriented behaviours and protect facts and civility. [Frankx, Sep 28 2021]

Deus Ex (videogame) https://www.youtube...watch?v=C8kZ3HfeqtA
conspiracy theories that aged surprisingly well [sninctown, Sep 30 2021]

Could it Be Aspergers? https://www.youtube...watch?v=LuZFThlOiJI
A lecture about a type of individual which has found a special interest that is more interesting than relating to other people. If the special interest is conspiracy theories, the results can be extraordinary, contributing to the infamy of the "chans" [sninctown, Sep 30 2021]

7 Conservative talk radio hosts https://www.busines...ath-covid-19-2021-9
[RayfordSteele, Oct 02 2021]

The young and the lungless... https://www.healthl...eople-most-affected
[RayfordSteele, Oct 03 2021]

The salmon mousse https://www.youtube...watch?v=YoBTsMJ4jNk
[a1, Oct 03 2021]

Ask your doctor ... https://www.drugs.c...anoid-disorder.html
... if an off-label prescription is right for you! [a1, Oct 04 2021]

Leo in drag? https://phys.org/ne...-self-portrait.html
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 05 2021]

Lisa del Giocondo http://monalisa.org/2012/09/11/302/
[a1, Oct 05 2021]

Stylite_20Vertical_...istancing_20Vehicle re. "Mentally ill people should be revered" [pertinax, Oct 05 2021]

Who was Leonardo, really? https://en.wikipedi...uiem_for_Methuselah
Star Trek explains all - even in a 3rd season stinker [a1, Oct 05 2021]

Lots of other "explanations" though https://www.theatla...till-abound/588757/
NB references to the "self-portrait" theory dating back at east as far as 1987 [a1, Oct 05 2021]

Where is a1? https://en.wikipedi...oad_(Great_Britain)
[Frankx, Oct 05 2021]

Elon Musk's twitter (20 march 2020) https://twitter.com...91706304512?lang=en
(covid) "Feels like the plot of Deus Ex" [sninctown, Oct 07 2021]

No, your antibodies are not better than vaccination https://arstechnica.com/?p=1802249
[a1, Oct 08 2021]

Quebec Law 105 https://www.cbc.ca/...ion-covid-1.6186744
Bars anti-vax protests within 50 metres of hospitals and schools. [a1, Oct 08 2021]

I disavow https://www.youtube...watch?v=eKwP9RpkCd8
Roll your own! Now legal in Michigan! [Voice, Oct 08 2021]

I, pet goat II https://vimeo.com/44583147
[a1, Oct 08 2021]

Hospital capacity tracking by state https://carlsonscho...19-tracking-project
As reported by the states [Voice, Oct 09 2021]

a1 https://vancouversu...ools-farnworth-says
sauce [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 09 2021]

Completely peaceful except for the trespassing, harassment, and assaults https://www.nytimes...ports-protests.html
[a1, Oct 09 2021]

BMJ article on natural immunity https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101
The BMJ is about as reputable and independent as you can get. [Frankx, Oct 09 2021]

Not the BMJ https://www.timesof...ense-than-vaccines/
+ still not peer reviewed? [4and20, Oct 09 2021]

The Lancet https://www.thelanc...21)00675-9/fulltext
UK NHS study “SIREN” [Frankx, Oct 09 2021]

Grey State (NSFW -- war movie) https://youtu.be/Gy7FVXERKFE
Violent dramatization of civil war -- think Fallujah but on this side of the world. Movie was not finished due to apparent insanity and death of the filmmaker. [sninctown, Oct 10 2021]

Excess Mortality Rates for Australia, Canada, the UK and the US https://ourworldind...try=AUS~CAN~USA~GBR
Overall deaths from all cause above what would be normally expected. [AusCan531, Oct 10 2021]

Proof that Vaccinated People CAN STILL CATCH THE DISEASE! https://www.snopes....d-one-not-smallpox/
One of these boys was vaccinated but the other wasn't. BOTH Caught the disease and both presumably could still be spreaders. [AusCan531, Oct 10 2021]

Australian Police Covid search https://www.google....ralian+police+covid
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 11 2021]

Consequences from Melbourne 'Protest' https://www.theguar...torian-headquarters
[AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

Free Speech and Social Media https://i.redd.it/c6xczkqwc6a71.jpg
Spreading misinformation kills people. [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

This is near where you live [2 Fries], were you in attendance? https://twitter.com...1433204799621660675
At least they didn't block ambulances while harassing medical staff unlike in Vancouver. [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

Australia compared to Florida https://imgur.com/yckZXrP
55,000 extra Floridians get to experience the Freedom of the Grave [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

BEWARE! 'They' are trying to control you. https://imgur.com/NfpYgD1
Do your own research. [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

Vaccines stop transmission? https://www.cdc.gov...cinated-people.html
CDC says better than tinfoil hats. [4and20, Oct 12 2021]

British Columbia Covid Stats https://imgur.com/SGQvD2x
I think, we've found the problem. [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

Nursing staff discuss what many (not all) Covid survivors face. https://www.reddit....rce=share&context=3
There's more to it than just 'Dying' or 'Not Dying'. [AusCan531, Oct 12 2021]

My entire attitude summed up in a nutshell. https://i.redd.it/o75bskzunme71.jpg
True story. [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 14 2021]

May 2019 Madonna / Eurovision song (NSFW) https://www.youtube...=VG3WkiL0d_U&t=299s
Music video featuring covid-related symbolism ~9 months before covid, gratuitous occult symbolism, and snippets from a song whose full lyrics include "fight against the English...They think we are not aware of their crimes. We know, but we are just not ready to act". It's probably nothing; no reason to be paranoid. [sninctown, Oct 15 2021]

Vaccine efficacy - see table 2 https://assets.publ...bs-clean.pdf#page=7
[Frankx, Oct 16 2021]

Reduced risk ofmre-infection after vaccination https://www.cdc.gov.../70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated [a1, Oct 16 2021]

paper on reinfection of common cold strain (coronavirus) https://www.cambrid...2B4C0E39861A9F88B01
The time course of the immune response to experimental coronavirus infection of man [Loris, Oct 16 2021]

Retail Council of Canada https://www.retailc...ements-by-province/
Proof of vaccination requeirments [a1, Oct 17 2021]

BMJ article "Vaccinating people who have had covid-19: why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?" https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101
Reviews data on immunity through prior infection and vaccination and how the USA and the rest of the world is dealing with this. [Loris, Oct 17 2021]


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Annotation:







       Dehumanizing people with mistaken beliefs [-]: there's a regrettable tradition of this, which has contributed to the sort of ambient paranoia which makes people into, for example, anti- vaxxers.
pertinax, Sep 26 2021
  

       [pertinax] were you aware that the definition of the word vaccine was changed from; “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection”?   

       If it does not provide immunity it is not a vaccine, so... I know! Let's just change the meaning of the word vaccine and scare monger the population of Earth into taking whatever we give them to stave off something with a 99.5% survivability rate.   

       Oh! And then let's target the few who are smart enough to see they're being conned and sick the general population against them.
We can call them Anti-Vaxxers so that people can attack them instead of the Con-Men perpetrating this plandemic.
  

       It'll be great and they'll be way too busy to care about Hong Kong or any rich and powerful Pedo-Island type stuff.
You watch, we'll have them lining up and begging to get jabbed with whatever we can roll off the shelves first.
Why I bet we can even make a few million before we even get FDA approval...
  

       Call me an anti-vaxxer and I will wear it like a crown.   

       well said [2 fries] !!
xandram, Sep 26 2021
  

       A vaccine is not a cure or treatment...
Voice, Sep 26 2021
  

       No, but a vaccine by definition confers immunity... or at least it used to until just slightly before this epic con job was undertaken.
(get it?... undertaken)
So now the CDC just changes the definition of that one word while enabling the previous definition to give themselves broad sweeping powers in the form of mandates.
You 'can't' argue with them... it's for your own health citizen.
  

       When you point out that only those who are vaccinated will be spreading this virus while thinking themselves as non-carriers they call you an anti-vaxxer idiot and lately on Farcebook, and I quote; "Let's just all call anti-vaxxers what they really are... infant-killing fuckwads".   

       Grab your torches and fucking pitchforks people!
It's time to bring back neighbour lynchings!
  

       Y'know, most of the time I find the stupididity of my species amusing.
Then there are other times when they do their damndest to drag me down to their level.
  

       Good luck with that.   

       They didn't change the definition of a vaccine. I just googled the effectiveness of other common vaccines:   

       chicken pox:
single dose: 82%
two doses: 92%
Measles (MMR):
singe dose: 93%
two doses: 97%
Mumps (MMR):
singe dose: 78%
two doses: 88%
Rubella (MMR):
singe dose: 97%
Flu vaccine: typically 40-60% effective.
  

       // When you point out that only those who are vaccinated will be spreading this virus //. Can you please point me to information about how ONLY vaccinated people spread the virus? I tried googling it, but maybe the rumor is dying out and I can't get any hits. (or alternately the censors are getting more effective)   

       I've also heard someone (who I would generally consider intelligent) say that more people died from the vaccine than Covid-19. I tracked that to it's source of wildly misinterpreting data one way in one case and the other in the other case, then taking it out of context and making a typographical error...   

       I don't think vaccine mandates are a good thing: that just fuels the conspiracy theorists further, and we should have rights over our own bodies. The medical establishment has made systematic mistakes before and will again. However I have seen no evidence (that stands up to more than a few minutes of scrutiny) that the established science behind Covid-19 is wrong unless there is a massive conspiracy.   

       I know one person personally who died from Covid-19. I think it happened just before Pfizer got full FDA approval, which they were waiting for. I know another unvaccinated person who VERY sick and was sure they would. Several others I've known were just miserable, and of course a few cases that weren't much worse than a flu. In my entire life I've never known anyone who died or was hospitalized because of the flu. Obviously not a scientific poll, but my personal experience lines up with the mainstream data: Covid-19 is MUCH worse than the flu, even after all the precautions people have taken. What do you say about the situations that occurred in Italy and New York City where hospitals where completely overwhelmed at the start of the pandemic?
scad mientist, Sep 27 2021
  

       // Can you please point me to information about how ONLY vaccinated people spread the virus?//   

       No, I said that only the vaccinated 'will' be spreading the virus, (future tense), while thinking that they are not carriers...
How will the virus be spread by folks who can't eat out, or travel, or gather in groups?
I ask you?
Think it through.
Only the vaccinated 'will' be spreading the virus... while blaming me for staying home and ignoring the bullshit.
  

       I'm a hermit by nature and can cook for myself.   

       I had covid, (then still called corona), didn't take up a hospital bed because I usually get at least two colds a year, and have built up my own antibodies. Taking the vaccine would do absolutely no good either for myself or for anyone else since I would still be a carrier and only risk serious side-effects by doing so. As was reported by one of the creators of the RNA vaccine but then he had his youtube video cancelled for daring to state that there are many people who should not get vaccinated.   

       Yet I should... why?
Because it will halt the spread? False.
Because it will protect others? False.
Because it will protect myself?...
...false.
  

       It's all fucking false.   

       You've been conned... and it's way easier to con people than it is to convince them that they've been conned.   

       I never said I wasn't a sucker for punishment.   

       Harder daddy!   

       None of that has anything to do with how the definition of a word can change while still holding the same weight and therefore statutes as the displaced definition without a change of policy to accompany the linguistical gymnastics.   

       Go on then.   

       Tell me how laws remain while the words used to write them change...   

       Convince me that I am not being conned.   

       ...   

       ...   

       anyone   

       Deletion of annotations do not prove me wrong.   

       Nice try though.   

       Sorry [wjt]. I didn't mean to go off on a tangent on your posting. I just, I just don't put up with bullshit, and I don't really know how to, or even want to, back down when I am confronted with it.   

       I read recently that science was a kind of system or way of thinking. Not a pic-n-mix selection box. You can't choose to believe in the bits of science that give you mobile phones and internet message boards, but reject the bits of science that give you vaccines.
pocmloc, Sep 27 2021
  

       I believe this vaccine generally works as intended. However, I also believe that there is some resemblance to some plot elements of the videogame "Deus Ex" (Eidos, 2000), specifically the Ambrosia vaccine and a plague which was created to control the population. COVID seems even more like a politically convenient pretext for war than 9/11 did. If everyone got vaccinated today, I would predict not an end to COVID, but the emergence of another strain requiring another vaccination and more bailouts, surveillance, and restrictions. The COVID response so far reminds me not of childhood vaccinations, but of the lead-up to invading Iraq. Science has thoroughly documented the ability of groups of influential people to create plots which go completely off the rails in practice, especially in domains related to international politics. I got the vaccine since that's what my leadership recommended, but I think the zombies might have the right idea here. At least the zombies aren't instigating a war. My wild guess at a better alternative would be to wear P100 masks, since this would filter the virus and not require movement controls, but admittedly this might not work due to problems such as cost, fit, and decontamination after use.   

       I give this idea a [-] for being basically a WINBI distillation of the zeitgeist, and for restarting the COVID Lawn Sprinkler Debate.
sninctown, Sep 27 2021
  

       Where I begin to agree with [2 fries] is that I think there was a Lancet study which showed that only a very small percentage of Brits who'd had Covid once were subsequently on record as getting it again. This gels with the admission by many countries that prior proof of Covid recovery is adequate proof that one can safely enter a country. But that proof usually has a time limit. So being a prior Covid recovery may give you some immunity, but for how long?   

       Where I may disagree with [2 fries]: Who's proven that having a prior case of Covid will make people less likely to spread Covid regardless, vs. the transmission rate of people who've been vaccinated?   

       Where I definitely disagree with [2 fries]: Take a visit to Worldometers.info and sort the biweekly Covid cases by rate. There are always a certain number of countries which have such high death rates per million, on a weekly basis, that a full 1% of their total population could die quite quickly. That's not recovery rate. That's gross death rate.
4and20, Sep 27 2021
  

       FFS. Again with your bullshit 2 fries?   

       [marked-for-deletion] Take your political bullshit anywhere else on the internet.   

       (Sorry, wjt, once something is infected with this garbage, it should be culled to protect the rest.)
Loris, Sep 27 2021
  

       //Tell me how laws remain while the words used to write them change//
I took this class in 1997. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but basically - where there is ambiguity - it involves the courts adopting one of two approaches: the literal (what do the words say?) or the purposive (why do the words say what they say?).
  

       Though perhaps I took a literal interpretation of yr question, where a purposive one would have been more useful.
calum, Sep 27 2021
  

       Nothing I've said is bullshit. Being silenced about this topic is part of the propaganda. This is the only place I've found on the internet where people are smart enough to still have open minds.   

       //You can't choose to believe in the bits of science that give you mobile phones and internet message boards, but reject the bits of science that give you vaccines.//   

       Sure I can.
Didn't the same science that gave us space flight also give us Thalidomaide?
Scientists are not shining gods in lab coats and since the creator of the rna vaccine had his youtube video pulled for saying the same things as me...
...which scientists are correct and which are wrong?
  

       I have heard, [calum], that difference between those two is one of the differences between the legal traditions in, on the one hand, mainland Europe and, on the other hand, the UK; the European approach usually has a closer focus on the law's intent, whereas the British approach tends to steer closer to literalism.   

       The former approach gives you more flexibility, but requires that you place more trust in whoever is interpreting the law that day.   

       Is there any truth in that, in your experience?
pertinax, Sep 27 2021
  

       That is correct. This is also why EU legislation looks and feels very different - big long recitals and preambles, uh, preceding some very "principles-level" drafting vs what looks like computer code. That's not to say that the UK courts won't look at intent when trying to figure out what legislation is supposed to say ("look at Hansard").
calum, Sep 27 2021
  

       //Nothing I've said is bullshit.//   

       Dude, it's all bullshit.   

       the covid-19 vaccines /do/ confer some immunity. They may not be /perfect/, but as scad mientist pointed out, other vaccines arn't either.   

       You say "And then let's target the few who are smart enough to see they're being conned [...] We can call them Anti-Vaxxers so that people can attack them instead of the Con-Men perpetrating this plandemic."   

       Which is wild. What /is/ the con? What does that word, "plandemic" mean to you? We've been over that before, and you didn't have a coherent explanation.   

       You say "When you point out that only those who are vaccinated will be spreading this virus while thinking themselves as non- carriers.."   

       And then when called on it, you do some sort of weasel-wording defence.
(As far as I can tell, this relies on the non-vaccinated dutifully isolating themselves entirely, forever, and/or uniformly thinking of themselves as potential carriers when the vaccinated uniformly do.)
  

       And you're now going on about "one of the creators of the RNA vaccine" being /cancelled/ for saying /something/ - as if that proves anything.
So of course I looked into this a little, and you're probably talking about a guy called Dr. Robert Malone, who according to the website "rwmalonemd.com" (I'm sure that it's entirely impartial) is "the inventor of mRNA vaccines". Because, you know, a development like this only ever has one inventor who is entirely deserving of all the credit for everything in the field in perpetuity; no-one else was likely to be working on that independently or at all. And of course, his work in the '80s on frogs and mice means he's entirely up to date and an expert on all developments in the field over the three decades since then. And of course is also an expert in the medical regulatory environment and has full and unfettered access to all the vaccine testing data.
  

       So, realistically, the guy looks pretty pissed about not receiving credit for his work, and recently said something which can be disputed, on an extremely touchy subject where the social networks are already on a hair-trigger. And maybe what happened was that enough people paid notice to a TV appearance and complained that some of his stuff got taken down. You can probably thank the anti-vaxxers spreading misinformation for the rather aggressive response.
And ...well, I'm not in the jurisdiction of the CDC, but I don't know what game they're playing. Lots of people are confused about that, it's true.
  

       So... he's obviously pretty thoroughly cancelled. I mean he can only get articles on random news sites like the Washinton Post and low-rent scientific journals like Nature, and tweet about how he's giving interviews on TV. Having to request reactivation of his LinkedIn account, wow.   

       But... you know, what do you think that proves?   

       //Yet I should... [get vaccinated] why?
Because it will halt the spread? False.
Because it will protect others? False.
Because it will protect myself?...
...false.//
  

       I think you're wrong with at least two of those 'falses', there. It /would/ provide some protection to others around you, in the event you were exposed. It /would/ protect you, in the same circumstance.
Vaccinating any one person can't hope to 'halt the spread', of course. It's obviously a group effort. At this point, though, it doesn't seem feasible to eliminate covid-19 anytime soon, and at least in the UK we've moved on.
Loris, Sep 27 2021
  

       Counterpoint(s): Why NOT get vaccinated?
It's free (at least, it is where I live...)
It takes maybe half an hour of your time (& another 1/2 in 6 weeks)
It (probably) stops you dying of Covid-19
It keeps society from demonising you (not sure myself if that's actually a reason...)
It doesn't track you, make you magnetic, make you sick, or any other "conspiracy theory" crap

Another point to ponder: now that vaccination is widespread, those hospitalised with Covid-19 are about 1% vaxxed, 99% unvaxxed (citation needed). If the vaccine didn't work, those numbers would be wildly different.
neutrinos_shadow, Sep 27 2021
  

       Sorry [scad mientist] on longer threads I hit the end button and scroll up from the bottom to find my last anno and I completely missed yours. You make good points, but they did indeed change the definition of the word vaccine.
When you list the percentages of those actual vaccines does it refer to its effectiveness in an individual or the percentage of people rendered immune? If it is the latter then these... shots offer exactly 0% immunity and so do not qualify for the previous definition of the word vaccine.
  

       As for hospitals being overwhelmed, I think we should be spending more on medical facilities and less on military.   

       //What /is/ the con? What does that word, "plandemic" mean to you? We've been over that before, and you didn't have a coherent explanation.//   

       The con is misdirection and total control of the masses. Absolute power of course without protest.
Did you know that in the Philippines going out after curfew will now get you shot as a covid precaution? The jackboot on their necks might be wearing scrubs, but it's a jackboot nonetheless.
  

       The word Plandemic means to me that the overreaction response to this man-made virus, (whether accidentally or purposefully released), was premeditated and is being used to Stockholm Syndrome all of our societies to the point of welcoming our new overlords with open arms to save us all from the fear they have mongered.   

       "Two weeks to flatten the curve..."   

       //You say "When you point out that only those who are vaccinated will be spreading this virus while thinking themselves as non- carriers.."   

       And then when called on it, you do some sort of weasel-wording defence.//   

       Weasel-wording defence? My statement was entirely logical and need no defending. As long as un-vaccinated people are on lock down then only vaccinated people will be spreading this shit about now won't they?
Wtf is so hard to understand about that?
  

       //(As far as I can tell, this relies on the non-vaccinated dutifully isolating themselves entirely, forever, and/or uniformly thinking of themselves as potential carriers when the vaccinated uniformly do.)//   

       If both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people are carriers then why are they not both on lock-down?
Un-vaccinated I pose no more threat to you or your kids than all of the vaccinated people sitting around the restaurant you get to enjoy or walking around that resort you get to go to and I don't.
The only reason I can think of is that you've sufficiently demonstrated your willingness to conform and I have not.
  

       //I think you're wrong with at least two of those 'falses', there. It /would/ provide some protection to others around you//   

       No. No it wouldn't.   

       //in the event you were exposed. It /would/ protect you, in the same circumstance.//   

       No. No it wouldn't. Having my own immune system kick its ass without aid means that all I stand to gain is Bells Palsy or permanent double vision or an entire body rash or any number of other lovely side-effects which are kept surprisingly low-key given how much every single other aspect of this shit-show gets hyped.   

       //When you list the percentages of those actual vaccines does it refer to its effectiveness in an individual or the percentage of people rendered immune? If it is the latter then these... shots offer exactly 0% immunity and so do not qualify for the previous definition of the word vaccine.//   

       You're wrong.
Something I've noticed a lot recently is people misunderstanding data, or asking why we don't have particular measurements without thinking about how data is gathered.
In this case, (and I've seen this stated by an expert), the experiment is to track vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals, and see how many of each get covid. Then effectively the protection is how much rarer it is for vaccinated individuals to get covid than unvaccinated. Now there are /obviously/ various statistical gotchas, but also obviously you can work to take those into account.
This is in general how the values given are calculated.
So given that, this doesn't tell us whether some individuals have very good immunity and others none, or whether vaccinated individuals are each just more resistant to developing the infection, or somewhere in-between. To find that out definitively, you'd need a different experiment, which it would be hard to get past the ethics board.
  

         

       ////What /is/ the con? What does that word, "plandemic" mean to you? We've been over that before, and you didn't have a coherent explanation.////   

       //The con is misdirection and total control of the masses. Absolute power of course without protest.
Did you know that in the Philippines going out after curfew will now get you shot as a covid precaution? The jackboot on their necks might be wearing scrubs, but it's a jackboot nonetheless.//
  

       So obviously we can easily extrapolate from a mad power-play which happened in one country - to all the others? Oh, no, that would be a mistake on your part.   

       //The word Plandemic means to me that the overreaction response to this man-made virus, (whether accidentally or purposefully released), was premeditated and is being used to Stockholm Syndrome all of our societies to the point of welcoming our new overlords with open arms to save us all from the fear they have mongered.//   

       The man-made bit isn't anywhere near proven. At best it's a hypothesis. Rhetoric.
Insinuation about deliberate release, which would make no sense as previously discussed. Rhetoric.
Suggestion that there was an international, coordinated plan to manipulate societies worldwide relying on the above. Absolute bullshit. Clearly ridiculous - it doesn't even fit the basic evidence.
  

       weasel-wording defence of:
//////You say "When you point out that only those who are vaccinated will be spreading this virus while thinking themselves as non- carriers.."//////
  

       //Weasel-wording defence? My statement was entirely logical and need no defending. As long as un-vaccinated people are on lock down then only vaccinated people will be spreading this shit about now won't they?
Wtf is so hard to understand about that?//
  

       When you make multiple unstated and incorrect assumptions, you can 'prove' anything.   

       //If both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people are carriers then why are they not both on lock-down?//   

       Neither group are on lockdown, here. I don't track restrictions in every country in the world, but if that's the case for you then maybe you should say that.
Regardless, your statement is untrue for most of the world, and possibly not for Canada either, since even people on lockdown have to have some interaction with the rest of society when it becomes protracted - and in any case it's likely a rule observed largely in the breach at that point.
  

       ////I think you're wrong with at least two of those 'falses', there. It /would/ provide some protection to others around you [...] in the event you were exposed. It /would/ protect you, in the same circumstance.////   

       //No. No it wouldn't. Having my own immune system kick its ass without aid means that all I stand to gain is Bells Palsy or permanent double vision or an entire body rash or any number of other lovely side-effects which are kept surprisingly low-key given how much every single other aspect of this shit-show gets hyped.//   

       Nothing is ever completely risk-free, but given the numbers vaccinated now, the vaccines are demonstrably safe enough that it's better than being infected, at least for adults. (Given the increase in risk of covid infection with age, it's less definitive a benefit in children, at least for the individual.) I think this is now considered clear even for people who've already had a mild covid infection some time previously. The potential long-term effects of covid infection are pretty well covered and seem extensive.
Loris, Sep 28 2021
  

       [2_fries] - I don't trust our politicians or big corporations driven by profit.   

       I have no idea what names people get called on Facebook, or why. I thought it was just a way of keeping in touch with friends.   

       I don't agree with hatred, mob-rule or fear-mongering.   

       I have immediate family who are medical doctors, research scientists, and in particular, virologists.   

       All of them agree:   

       1) "science" does make mistakes   

       2) there are health risks to any vaccine   

       3) no vaccine is 100% effective at preventing an individual from getting an infection   

       But all of them also agree:   

       1) the personal health risk of infection far outweighs the risk of the vaccine   

       2) more people vaccinated means lower risk for the un- vaccinated (and those few people who, despite being vaccinated still get an infection)   

       3) the illness that those people get will be less severe, and is less likely to be passed on to others   

       And finally, every single one of them has insisted on having their own children vaccinated at the earliest opportunity.   

       These are people who have access to the very highest quality peer-reviewed independent research, the various medical safety authority assessments, all the data - and have the education and training to understand that information and assess it critically.
Frankx, Sep 28 2021
  

       [Frankx] - [+]
hippo, Sep 28 2021
  

       All excellent and reasonable points. However, I notice that I am still required to "wear mask" and "social distance" and remote work, despite being in a highly vaccinated region, since apparently there is a new strain that poses a risk to the vaccinated. This suggests to me that there is more to the story.   

       The Pro-Truth Pledge reminds me of Prak, from the Hitchhiker's Guide, who was given much too much of a sci-fi truth drug and ordered to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Which he did, and this flow of truth was so problematic that the court was closed permanently and sealed in a Chernobyl-type enclosure to stop the truth from getting out. Apparently, there were some good bits about frogs. Prak's experience rings true to my own experience.
sninctown, Sep 28 2021
  

       All you have to do, frankly, is compare the vaccination rate of blue states and red states, and the hospitalization / death rates.   

       We're so tired of hearing the belligerent bullshit. If this were my site I'd ban 2f by now.   

       Shut up and deal with it. If you feel oppressed or silenced or something by that statement, then, well, tough. Jutta has already said to take your political bullshit elsewhere.
RayfordSteele, Sep 29 2021
  

       //We're so tired of hearing the belligerent bullshit. If this were my site I'd ban 2f by now.//   

       Who are 'we'?
I am very glad it is not your site.
  

       //Shut up and deal with it. If you feel oppressed or silenced or something by that statement, then, well, tough. Jutta has already said to take your political bullshit elsewhere.//   

       Has she now?
Under what guise?
  

       Explain yourself. Now.   

       C'mon bully. I haven't got all night.   

       I'm gonna go to bed soon and you'll have to wrangle your posse to come to the rescue as to just who ...'we'... refer to?   

       ...or is it just your imaginary friends?   

       Guess I will find out tomorrow.   

       ...   

       [2fries] out.   

       I think we've been through this with the Covid Lawn Sprinker idea...that one which got the [mfd] a few months ago with a comment to the effect that this is an idea discussion site, not a politics discussion site, of which there are many. My sense of things is that this Covid stuff tends to lack whimsy and makes people upset, and the noise scares off commenters whose thoughts might be more artful and less ruggedly confrontational, and so ideas which turn into political debate get the [mfd] in order to maintain whimsy and harmony.   

       Personally, this all seems like a psyop to "salami-slice" change toward a "new normal", but I don't know if the end goal is a managed and equalized global economic system which some think tanks have been talking about, or if this is a soft bio conflict scenario between countries, or something else. Either way, since vaccinated people can still catch and spread new strains, I don't see this going away anytime soon.
sninctown, Sep 29 2021
  

       The fictitious, quick immunity boosting, vaccine, allowing the body to stage a regenerative defense, was just to implement the line, will it help the fictitious infected human or won't it.   

       The more interest part of the game is the need for a trigger decision, in increasing complex situations. Rather than the usual simple, blind, quick booting stomp out of all opposition. The society can't be formed without the right allies.   

       If you can't kill it, be cleverer about living with it. It might even become very important.
wjt, Sep 29 2021
  

       Yes, 2f she has. Did you miss it? It was in the Covid Lawn fiasco.
RayfordSteele, Sep 29 2021
  

       I get it. I'm sorry.   

       It's me. Spend decades fighting for your rights and you get a bit touchy when they look even a little bit threatened... let alone taken away.   

       I... I just, all of the shit comes from the same place, y'know? The inventions, the intuition, the art, the... knowing without knowing how you know stuff, and for me it's all the same thing. I can make no distinction between the mechanical engineering aspects of the things I am shown from my subconscious and the geopolitical things I am shown.   

       I just get shown things.   

       So...
...how am I to differentiate?
  

       If I wasn't just so damned correct all the time this would be a whole lot easier.   

       It all stems from the same well and I can't turn off any aspect of it without restricting all aspects and I'm not really prepared to do that.   

       I can however leave politically sensitive thoughts unsaid if that is the general consensus. I just think it a shame that there are topics not allowed to be discussed 'here' of all places.   

       I think the rule is "no politics". The rule isn't "no alternative politics". So, if the peanut gallery prefers not to listen to us talk whimsically about the secret illuminati and their plan to print vast sums of money for themselves while people are stuck indoors worrying about worse covid strains, maybe they can just [mfd] advocacy this idea so we can all go do something else.   

       // I can make no distinction between the mechanical engineering aspects of the things I am shown and the geopolitical things I am shown. // Same here -- and I think I also have seen some of the same alternative media items that paint this covid situation in a different light: the Event 201 exercise, the 2010 Lock Step scenario, the "Madonna 2019 Eurovision" performance, the "I Pet Goat II" video, and the videogame "Deus Ex" (link), all of which seem to foreshadow or predict a covid-type event, albeit indirectly.   

       I don't know how to discuss this in a nuanced way that doesn't turn into a shouting match between "you're stupid for watching the news" and "you're stupid for not watching the news" factions.   

       Near as I can tell, someone is paying for English- language "troll farms" to generate vast quantities of alternative opinions and launder them through internet forums such as the "chans", to try to inject narratives into the public consciousness, to benefit many different agendas. Similarly, English "mainstream media" coordinate their stories to save writing costs and to drive their own agendas. The resulting collision of ideas is a bit of a mess. But the denizens of those websites learn many surprising things, which emerge as radical-seeming opinions. Not whimsical.
sninctown, Sep 30 2021
  

       //I can however leave politically sensitive thoughts unsaid if that is the general consensus.//

I think the original idea has some relevance here. If instead of vaccine, you are injecting truth goo, then deciding who to shoot with your truth goo might save them, but maybe they are too far gone. Everyone thinks they are shooting truth goo so this applies to everyone, not just you. Not saying truth is relative, just that certain truths have different priorities for different people.

So anyway, you blast your hot sticky truth goo onto some unsuspecting zombie, and maybe they are cured of their ignorance. But if they are resistant, they instead blast a load of their own truth goo right in your eye. Passions rise, and pretty soon you and this zombie are furiously blasting truth goo on each other and it's not long before other zombies are attracted and start blasting their own truth goo, and pretty soon all of you are covered, and hating it, but you can't stop. Because you are caught up in the moment, and it just feels so right.

And this continues until you and the zombies collapse in a naked heap, fully exhausted and spent, salty strings covering everything. It isn't until morning that you realize what has happened and no amount of washing can clean away the shame.
LimpNotes, Sep 30 2021
  

       I wish I was better at reading subtext
calum, Sep 30 2021
  

       [calum] it's at the bottom of the page.
pocmloc, Sep 30 2021
  

       [pocmloc]; is that the one under the Stockmarket ticker & to the left of the weather?
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 01 2021
  

       //If I wasn't just so damned correct all the time this would be a whole lot easier.//   

       You're safe.
AusCan531, Oct 01 2021
  

       I'm with 2fries on this one.
The subtext is clear to those who have eyes to see.
I feel like Jeremiah.
  

       Make a videogame that's a modern Deus Ex, delving ever deeper into conspiracy (and real conspiracy, not this lame "augmentations" discussion that plagued Human Revolution; if the studio doesn't get visited by black SUVs at least once then the game hasn't found good enough info yet) and it would probably be something the videogame community wants.   

       Or, cash in on the "vaxxmaxxing" meme and require players to get shots of all the manufacturer's vaccines (i.e. 2 shots of 5 different covid vaccines) for the high score.
sninctown, Oct 01 2021
  

       Everybody thinks they're some kind of gifted damn prophet these days. Especially all those right-wing talk radio hosts that got sick and died.
RayfordSteele, Oct 01 2021
  

       [Frankx] - [+]   

       — hippo, Sep 28 2021   

       _
blissmiss, Oct 01 2021
  

       //Everybody thinks they're some kind of gifted damn prophet these days.//   

       I just have random things pop into my head and then research them to find out whether the things I've seen in my head are true. I don't know what that means. When enough of those random thoughts tend to pan out, it makes one wonder. Is prophet the word kids are calling it these days? Who knew?   

       //Especially all those right-wing talk radio hosts that got sick and died.//   

       Did they die of covid?... or some secondary condition which has been omitted from public accounts of every corona/covid related death since April Fools day almost two years ago now?   

       It's been a long two weeks.   

       All right. I suppose if the front line fighting elite are putting there lives on the line then they should be able to react instantly without a tremor of decision.   

       How would a zombie be a identified as still having the stain of humanity anyway? a wistful gaze at a rose, a chuckle as a rat fell of a ledge or even maybe a tormented hesitation before a bite.
wjt, Oct 02 2021
  

       All of those things and more. Nuance is the key. The more you notice the higher your score.   

       Just like in real life...   

       Thanks [bliss] and [hippo].   

       And also thanks [2_fries]... //shit comes from the same place// - yeah, me too, I totally get that. Apologies If I come across as a pompous know-it-all a**hole. All perspectives are valid.
Frankx, Oct 02 2021
  

       Yes. They died of covid. See link.   

       Is there anything that you take at face value anymore? Or is it all some game played to trick you into thinking that 2 + 2 = 4?   

       As for your tboughts, maybe you just are gradually realizing that the world largely operates in patterns which are in some fashion predictable?
RayfordSteele, Oct 02 2021
  

       Maybe.
I've taken nothing at face value for a very long time.
  

       As this virus supposedly has a higher than 99% survivability rate for those without secondary health issues do you not find it suspicious that these secondary issues are never mentioned?   

       Like ever?   

       // 99% survivability for those without secondary conditions //   

       Do you realize how god-awful-fucking-serious a disease is if it kills 1% of otherwise healthy people who contract it? Even an annual flu epidemic is considered serious with a case fatality rate of 0.10%.   

       So far, COVID in the USA has killed over 0.21% of the population. That’s not the CASE fatality rate, that’s mortality across the entire population. The CFR worldwide for COVID is about 2%.   

       And we’re not done yet.
a1, Oct 02 2021
  

       What am I supposed to do with all this Truth Goo I ordered? Like a cement truck full of pizza dough, it seems to be growing and I'm not sure where to put it.   

       For complicated issues several perspectives can be true at the same time. The official story from the CDC and OSHA is of course true, just as it was true that the twin towers and building 7 all collapsed on 9/11. It might be less fraught to talk about past examples of this kind of thing. The official story about the Iran-Contra scandal was true, even though Gary Webb had some other ideas. There is no official story about social class, even though the movie 'Eyes Wide Shut' suggests a wild perspective. In fiction, the founder of the Hitchhiker's Guide spent some years // sitting in darkened rooms in illegal states of mind, thinking about this and that, and fooling around with weights // before figuring things out. Some time ago I responded to a company-wide survey with my thoughts about the "big picture", and soon after that they gave me a raise, but when I emailed my boss with some concerns (which he kindly reassured me about, and miraculously I'm still employed) a black suv blocked my road to work so I went a different way, unless I hallucinated the whole thing, which is possible; covid has been really getting to me. Am I //tbought//? Well, I have many thoughts, and there's never a dull moment when my train of thought is this far off the rails, like a derailment in Truth Goo tanker switchyards.
sninctown, Oct 02 2021
  

       // What am I supposed to do with all this Truth Goo I ordered // Make truth pizza. Hawaiian style, with bacon and pineapple, should be very pppular.
a1, Oct 02 2021
  

       //As this virus supposedly has a higher than 99% survivability rate for those without secondary health issues do you not find it suspicious that these secondary issues are never mentioned? //   

       We discussed this before, when you said:
//Why entire societies were bankrupted when the cost of placing all at-risk individuals in 5-star hotels for the duration of the pandemic would have been a fraction of the cost to society?//
  

       And I looked into it, and found that 37.6% of adults in the U.S.A have a higher risk of developing serious illness if they become infected with coronavirus, due to their older age (65 and older) or health condition. So there's obviously just no way your hotel strategy would work.   

       And the health conditions wern't wierd secret illnesses, but common things like being obese or having diabetes.
Loris, Oct 02 2021
  

       So again, being forced to take a double shot, which will not prevent me spreading a virus which my body has already battled so that I don't take up a hospital bed is complete nonsense.   

       Yet I am not allowed to dine out or travel or go to concerts or gather in any large group until I comply.
Yes that's a Canadian-centric point of view but hey, at least we don't have a curfew yet...
  

       When the numbers reflect reality. When secondary health causes are included in reports. When every false positive isn't counted as a covid death. When I am not lied to at every turn...   

       ...'then' I will consider complying.
Not before.
  

       // placing all at-risk individuals in 5-star hotels for the duration //   

       I missed that - and I’d qualify! Not overweight or diabetic, just old. And with a dodgy heart condition. And “respiratory problems,” if seasonal allergies and hay fever will get me maid service.   

       Sign me up!
a1, Oct 02 2021
  

       Work the numbers. Figure out what this fiasco has cost all businesses and citizens of this planet... and then tell me I'm wrong to think we could have removed at-risk individuals, let this virus run its course, (like it will do anyway), and the bill wouldn't have be lower than it is going to be.   

       Then try to tell me that every single covid death reported didn't have a secondary health issue which would have resulted in death with or without covid.   

       Paddlin?...   

       ...well you know that's a Covid death.   

       //What am I supposed to do with all this Truth Goo//   

       I'll take it off your hands if you can cover the cost of shipping; it'll be a useful feedstock for ... something.
pertinax, Oct 03 2021
  

       Truth Goo???   

       No. That's a covid death for sure.   

       I could mix in some alcohol or other disinfectant. perhaps gin. now there's an appetizing thought.
No need to worry too much about it. Everyone dies. Not everyone really lives.
Now just need an appropriately secure way to share an address, and a fast enough shipping method that it won't burst the vial on the way there, and we're in business...
sninctown, Oct 03 2021
  

       Well, the radio host who said his lungs felt like crap when he was perfectly fine before? That's Covid. The one guy who died of pneumonia brought on by Covid that took his response system and ran it amuck? That's Covid. Straight pneumonia is usually survivable, sometimes not.   

       I keep seeing that most of the delta patients now filling the hospitals are the young and healthy and unvaccinated. So there's your numbers ran, and you're wrong. As my wife had to have major surgery recently and that was an exciting time to try and get a room, I've been there and seen that with my own eyes. Here in Michigan, where we weren't exactly in the news for running out of space, the local hospitals were putting patients in hallways and classrooms for the night.   

       See link.   

       Calculating Covid deaths can get complicated quickly. The people who died of rather mundane medical issues because they couldn't be seen in time because the hospitals within 400 miles were full of Covid patients? How exactly do you assign those deaths? They probably would've lived if it weren't for the deathly-sick antivax clusterfucks taking up hospital beds.   

       Do I have to lay out every single death before you start to see the trends? If so, then you're falling way way short of your supposed prophecy gift. And speaking of, why didn't you warn us about all of this back in early 2019?   

       But nevermind that. Here's your chance to prove yourself. Give us your prediction for the next big conspiracy to be sniffed out and laid bare, ahead of time. Bonus points if it doesn't include someone who has a page or ten devoted to them in the news every week. And I'll even do this: as I realize that prophetic revelations don't come simply on-demand, I'll leave it as a standing invitation. Whenever the insight strikes.
RayfordSteele, Oct 03 2021
  

       // Give us your prediction for the next big conspiracy … standing invitation. Whenever the insight strikes //   

       Challenge won’t work to prove anything, at least not here on Halfbakery. HB allows editing without marking up the dates. Anybody could retcon an old post or annotation and then say “See, I told you way back when!”   

       You’ll need some more solid verification.
a1, Oct 03 2021
  

       Not to worry. We simply let 2F notify the community with a posting whenever he feels it, screen shot it then, and wait.
RayfordSteele, Oct 03 2021
  

       And I guess there’s the internet wayback machine to check for edits. I recall in other discussions at least some people do their own complete backup of HB. Carry on.
a1, Oct 03 2021
  

       //Do I have to lay out every single death before you start to see the trends?//   

       No. The news sources should already be doing that, but they're not.   

       I've been warning you guys that the shit was going to hit the fan in my lifetime for many years now.
I spent the last two decades working double-time in order to get me and my family as far from a major centre as possible to a place that has a chance of getting through what I see coming, and managed to pull it off just under the wire.
I've also already given you lot the latest thing I see coming.
  

       That our governments are going to start rounding up all of the precious metal.
That your neighbours will be conscripted to rat out anyone they suspect to be hoarding any.
  

       ...and now we wait.   

       Documented for posterity.   

       //Here's your chance to prove yourself. Give us your prediction for the next big conspiracy to be sniffed out and laid bare, ahead of time. Bonus points if it doesn't include someone who has a page or ten devoted to them in the news every week. And I'll even do this: as I realize that prophetic revelations don't come simply on-demand, I'll leave it as a standing invitation. Whenever the insight strikes.//
--RayfordSteele, Oct 03 2021
  

       //That our governments are going to start rounding up all of the precious metal. That your neighbours will be conscripted to rat out anyone they suspect to be hoarding any.//
--2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 03 2021
  

       I think this is a legitimate prediction, in that there isn't an obvious move to do that at this point. A google search for "precious metal government hoard" didn't give any current news articles, other than some buried treasure in Essex being classified as hoard and similar. There /are/ a number of questions about whether the government can confiscate it.   

       I think there should be stricter definitions of some parameters, to avoid weird ambiguous edge cases (e.g. North Korea decides to confiscate gold from citizens, or some law changes permissions for confiscation of proceeds of crime, etc).
I would consider this prediction validated when there are articles on legitimate news sites (BBC news, etc) about the governmet of a country in the set (Canada, USA, UK, Germany, France) passing a law to allow confiscation of at least one precious metal (from the set : gold, silver, platinum) held by ordinary citizens. This /must/ include that of sentimental value, i.e. wedding rings. Compulsory purchase counts.
  

       I promise that if I edit this post I will describe below what I changed, why and when.
Loris, Oct 03 2021
  

       Could be, reminds me of the Gold Seizure Act of 1933, but I'm not sure there's even a trillion dollars worth of gold in the USA.   

       Here are some covid-related predictions:
1. Covid was lab-made and deliberately released.
2. Fully vaccinated people can still get and spread covid. Most covid spread will be in vaccinated people.
3. Covid variants will get worse over time.
4. This abnormal "new normal" of "masks" and "social distancing" will continue to at least 2025.
5. The unvaccinated will be blamed.
  

       Could be worse. Instead of covid, it could have been a Bolshevik revolution based on race instead of on class, or war between Western and Eastern powers. This covid stuff is mild in comparison.
sninctown, Oct 03 2021
  

       Excellent - a forum for making predictions which hasn't been prematurely tagged as "Blatantly Idiotic"   

       I predict that, in the name of further reducing the impact of Covid, AIDS, and Global Warming, the media will change their encouragement from turning most men transexual into turning most men asexual. It will become customary for men to seek laboratory intervention to even have children, probably with each other.
4and20, Oct 03 2021
  

       // it could have been a Bolshevik revolution based on race instead of on class, or war between Western and Eastern powers//   

       Ah, those sweet days of summer when I believed things would basically turn out well. Enjoy them while they last, friend.
Voice, Oct 03 2021
  

       //Here in Michigan, where we weren't exactly in the news for running out of space, the local hospitals were putting patients in hallways and classrooms for the night.//   

       Were they? Or were they reserving empty rooms for potential covid patients and calling basically any respiratory illness covid so they could make use of at least some of those? and so they could get medicare "covid" money for a case of the flu?
Voice, Oct 03 2021
  

       I looked at the "death by Covid?" another way: by ignoring "cause of death" entirely.
(The stats I found first were for the USA, but if you know where to dig, most countries should be available...)
SOMETHING caused a massive jump in deaths (per capita) in April last year, & they remained well above "historical normal" for a long time. (It was a while ago that I looked, so can't comment on the Delta situation...)
So if it wasn't Covid causing all these extra people to die, what was it?
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 03 2021
  

       // it wasn't Covid causing all these extra people to die, what was it? //   

       The salmon mousse (link).
a1, Oct 03 2021
  

       //So if it wasn't Covid causing all these extra people to die, what was it?//   

       That is not in dispute. A new virus has been released. People with preexisting health conditions are at risk. Do everything you can to protect those people, encourage people to hand sanitize, wear a mask if you feel ill...   

       ...that's common sense.   

       Start taking away people's rights with mandates unless they conform to mass "vaccination", with something just whipped up, prior to FDA approval, and which also would not have qualified for the, recently removed word 'immune', definition of the word 'vaccine' and I get suspicious.   

       That's also common sense.   

       No. The ER was so full that they sent everyone who was not a patient back out.   

       The nurses I saw were on mandatory overtime and pretty exhausted.   

       There are ethics, and my doctor friends would slap you sideways if you even suggested that they or their hospital were gaming the system and displacing patients in doing so. Take that sick shit elsewhere.   

       BTW, the Pfizer vaccine is FDA approved, if that rubber stamp makes you feel better.   

       "Do everything you can to protect those people." Does everything we can include getting stubborn asses to wear masks or get their shots?   

       It's a good thing you weren't alive in Britain during WWII. The inconvenience of having to keep your lights doused and curtains drawn might've been objectionable.
RayfordSteele, Oct 04 2021
  

       //"Do everything you can to protect those people." Does everything we can include getting stubborn asses to wear masks or get their shots?   

       It's a good thing you weren't alive in Britain during WWII. The inconvenience of having to keep your lights doused and curtains drawn might've been objectionable.//   

       I have learned here that what you have stated is referred to as a straw-man argument. Whereby the subject of discussion is circumvented by a completely separate argument.   

       When those who think they can tell me what to do make sense I will listen to them.
Not before.
  

       You think this shit is easy for me don't you? That I'm just fucking around?   

       I'm not.   

       I gain not a single fucking thing by being frank with you folks. Not one. I tell people the things I see because it is the only way to determine if I still retain my own sanity. Seriously.
I've seen so fucking many others lose theirs that it is my greatest fear... so I check it as many ways as I can figure.
  

       The things that pop into my head are completely random. Things I couldn't possibly have concocted. So I put them out there so that I can determine weather the things I see are real or delusion, (I believe I have stated this before).   

       I will give you an example.
It is by no means proof of what I claim... but it might make you wonder as much as I do.
  

       Several years ago now it popped into my head that the Mona Lisa painting was Leonardo painting himself in drag.
So I posted it.
I have no idea why I was compelled to do so... but I did.
  

       Then, way afterwards it was discovered that the Mona Lisa is the only one of Leonardo's paintings to have the the initials L V scratched into one of the eyeballs of his paintings.   

       ...after I told you guys my prediction.   

       It is by no means proof that I was correct in my assumption, but there was no reason for me to make an assumption at all in the first place... and yet the fact that I did in order to double check myself should speak volumes. But it doesn't does it? Well it should.   

       I have no agenda.   

       I am not trying to con you.   

       I have nothing to gain by telling you the things I do besides your scorn and derision.   

       ...   

       yay me.   

       Send money.   

       I tried that, with the help of a Nigerian friend, but you wouldn't give him your bank details.
pertinax, Oct 04 2021
  

       Actually you do gain quite a bit, psychologically, at least short term. You get to maintain your narrative. You solidify your reasoning and position in your own mind, which brings comfort in the face of the risk of change or loss. It's that discomfort of potential loss of your narrative as a piece of your self-image that scares you the most I'd bet. It's in effect a self-con.   

       My "straw man" was to a similar situation. Personal action required by government edict for shared safety from an uncontrolled enemy.   

       And there was alot done during WWII by either side that didn't make a lot of sense, in hindsight. But there ain't nobody during a war that has all the information and all the time in the world to explain to the holdouts the entire backstory of why they need to do 'x'.   

       I used to get "insights" myself back when I was religiously-observant, actively defending it, and cared about such things. They were usually observations or insights or sometimes just blurry lightbulbs that lead me to hints of some surprising and beautiful conclusions or further research into what others had written about it, to find myself having the very same thoughts as those with masters in theology and such. I even reached out and engaged with an eminent professor about my thoughts and his writings, we had a nice back-and- forth for awhile about his writings and my own variations. One Mr. Alvin Plantinga. I had no theological training save my own exploration and church attendance. I felt special, and that became comfortable.   

       But you see, now I look back and shake my head and see that it was just all religion and its pseudo-logical sirens songs, and therefore a tragic waste of time about fantasy that only made inroads to reality when it needed them to sustain itself.
RayfordSteele, Oct 04 2021
  

       // I tell people the things I see because it is the only way to determine if I still retain my own sanity. Seriously. //   

       SERIOUSLY?   

       So many people here telling you you’re wrong, full of shinola, nucking futz - and THIS is how you gauge your own sanIty?
a1, Oct 04 2021
  

       //It's in effect a self-con.//   

       On the other hand, some form of self- deception may be an unavoidable part of the human condition, to the extent that the alternative is terrifying existential angst. If you're living with the terrifying existential angst, then you're probably not functioning too well, but if you've never had it, then maybe you've never got beyond self- deception.   

       Camus writes well about this, though I don't entirely agree with his resolution of it.   

       Wait; I'm getting pompous and wandering off the point, and I think the point is, if we drive away all the crazy people, then there might not be many people left, and those that are left might not be so interesting to talk to.
pertinax, Oct 04 2021
  

       It's more comfortable to say I might be wrong than to bear moral responsibity for failing to stop the covid false-flag attack.
sninctown, Oct 04 2021
  

       Genuinely curious: what is the covid false flag attack? More specifically, who is attacking, what are they attacking, how are they attacking, why are they attacking, and (least important) whose flag is being falsified?
calum, Oct 04 2021
  

       Regarding [2]'s latest prediction -- many cell phones contain precious metals. Is he not predicting that people's smart phones will be confiscated?
4and20, Oct 04 2021
  

       [4and20]; once military vehicles become electric, they'll come for your batteries...
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 04 2021
  

       Ask your doctor if anti-paranoia medication is right for you.
RayfordSteele, Oct 04 2021
  

       Y'know, there AREN'T really any approved "anti-paranoia medications" - but several are prescribed off-label. What does THAT tell you?
a1, Oct 04 2021
  

       Big picture: releasing the virus on purpose then using the resulting pandemic as a pretext for social and financial changes. And maybe this is the right thing to do.   

       Is there a pill for inability to consider more than one perspective at a time?
sninctown, Oct 04 2021
  

       Big picture. Who planned it and to whose advantage?
a1, Oct 04 2021
  

       Ha!   

       This is too rich. I guess bone structure comparisons of Leonardo's subjects has spawned a project to dig the man up to see if the Mona Lisa is indeed a self portrait.
[link]
Hahahaha...
Stop. Stop! I'm gonna pee.
  

       Remember, you heard it here first folks.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
  

       Wrong again. Lisa del Giocondo, without a doubt (link).
a1, Oct 05 2021
  

       //Is there a pill for inability to consider more than one perspective at a time?//   

       There sort-of is, and it's called dialectical logic. Unfortunately (a) it's *really* hard to swallow and digest, and (b) if it's washed down with Marxism then it doesn't work and has horrible side- effects.
pertinax, Oct 05 2021
  

       Um...   

       "The identification of the subject as Lisa del Giocondo, the wife of the Florentine merchant Francesco del Giocondo, is based upon accounts by Giorgio Vasari (1511-74). His account of the artist’s life which first appeared in 1550 is the only source up to now to name the subject and which also allowed an approximate dating of between 1503 and 1506, which means this identification came nearly 50 years after the painting. There have been doubts up to this day about the validity of these comments, as Vasari is known for his anecdotal tendancies. Leonardo himself makes no mention of the Mona Lisa in his sketches and notice books."   

       Yeah... there's some doubt.   

       Regardless of whether I lose my left testicle or not... the possibility popped into my head as a completely random thought long before any such discussion, I disclosed it to you all before any hoopla began, and now it's a thing.   

       Like I said.
Not proof one way or the other in the slightest... just really fucking strange and the fact is that I have led a lifetime of similar really strange occurrences so I share them with others.
  

       Keeping them to myself seems... pointless, while sharing them lets me determine whether I've lost my shit or not.   

       I was raised by mentally ill people. I've kinda been like steeped in it. My existential crisis came at like fourteen. If mental illness were a disease I've spent a lifetime building up antibodies.
Y'all think I'm nuts?
You should meet my kin.
  

       I'm the head warden.   

       Okay here's another insight or premonition or whatever you want to name it.   

       Mentally ill people should be revered.   

       Their minds have attempted and failed to run the gauntlet.   

       ...   

       "I" did not fail.
Got pushed way past the point where I should be drooling idiot in some sanctuary somewhere but instead I somehow made it through and now get glimpses of possibilities before they happen.
Since there are infinite realities things don't really solidify until the last instant.
I've done this before... many times.
At some point in my life there will be a single instant of time I am able to change from the last incarnation...
  

       ...because nobody else seems to be aware of the nuances.   

       ...and I have to put up with your shit while I figure it out.   

       How 'bout them apples?   

       I'm sort of with [2 fries] again. There have been quite a few mentally ill people in my family, and like [2 fries], I feared and resisted it. But, on the other hand, Kirkagaard apparently once wrote that intelligence comes from paranoia. It's certainly possible to be oversensitive, but in my family's case, people reacted by just shutting down. As a matter of fact, I hear more bizarre conspiracies from so-called sane people. It's a kind of gift and a curse trying to track ALL the nuance of the world while steadily trying to find an all-emcompassing sense to it.
4and20, Oct 05 2021
  

       The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.   

       NB: If I stop posting for a long time, contact the soundcloud rapper who calls himself "Plowman" a.k.a. "Tech Rap" from San Francisco (not me! not endorsed by me!) and tell him that this website is wondering what happened to his dark web bro sn;-from-ctown... He would know how to get in touch with me. (My employer continues to teach Critical Race Theory, i.e. racial Marxism, which violates the 14th, 5th, and 1st Amendment and would lead to a disastrous war followed by population collapse if implemented, same as the last few times countries tried this kind of thing; and several coworkers have told me I am "famous"; they didn't say why but I guess it is for not only denying my own guilt, but for ending up in a situation where it's clear that the people teaching this stuff are obviously guilty per their own teaching.) I don't expect to go anywhere, but, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
sninctown, Oct 05 2021
  

       .[2 fries], I’ll let you in on a little secrest. Nobody is ever gonna do that DNA testing, or if they do they’ll have to fake the results. Leonardo faked his death - many times! He’s been alive for centuries and been many, many great men through history (including your beloved Tesla). I saw it in a Star Trek episode and hints of it in other great literature, so it could be true.   

       Prove me wrong.
a1, Oct 05 2021
  

       //Mentally ill people should be revered. //   

       See annotations to linked idea.
pertinax, Oct 05 2021
  

       //Leonardo faked his death// So the turtles thing is true as well! My god how deep does it go
pocmloc, Oct 05 2021
  

       // a completely random thought long before any such discussion, I disclosed it to you all before any hoopla began, and now it's a thing //   

       Y’know, speculation that Mona Lisa’s model may have been a man - or even a self portrait - had been circulating at least as early as 1987 (link). That sorta deflates your claim of prophecy. It’s common on HB and elsewhere to have a “random” thought and believe nobody ever thought it before - only to find that others HAVE thought of it before. And often people have studied and dismissed some ideas before you even randomly thought of them on your own.   

       Some bakers are able to learn from that. Others provide endless entertainment by denying it.
a1, Oct 05 2021
  

       Well then I guess I get to cross; Find someone calling themselves a1 and amuse them, off my bucket list.   

       Ah, but am I really called "a1" anywhere but here? Perhaps "a1" and anyone else who seems to disagree with you is part of the conspiracy. As are the ones who seem to agree with you.   

       Trust no one!
a1, Oct 05 2021
  

       You're a plumber arn't you, A1? And an electrician.
Loris, Oct 05 2021
  

       And a steak sauce, don't forget!
a1, Oct 05 2021
  

       And the Great North Road of course [link]
Frankx, Oct 05 2021
  

       Everyone knows that conspiracies are a right-wing kinda thing. The left isn't capable.
RayfordSteele, Oct 05 2021
  

       //There are ethics, and my doctor friends would slap you sideways if you even suggested that they or their hospital were gaming the system and displacing patients in doing so.//   

       Don't put words in my mouth. I suggested they were reserving rooms for potential covid patients and gaming the system just so they could undo some of that. Thereby implying the setting aside was required. By way of coincidence I was in a Michigan emergency room a couple of weeks ago myself. The waiting room wasn't full but they were taking in one patient every hour from it. No respiratory complaints among them. Just evidence the hospital wasn't properly staffed even for a slow night. Let me guess, this too is evidence of covid.
Voice, Oct 07 2021
  

       Possibly. The nurses have become rather burnt out lately.   

       Here, have some more words. They're quite tasty...
RayfordSteele, Oct 07 2021
  

       //Just evidence the hospital wasn't properly staffed even for a slow night. Let me guess, this too is evidence of covid?//   

       Could be. I don't know about where you are but here many doctors and nurses were among those peacfuly protesting these mandates outside of the hospitals they work for.
The same hospitals they are no longer welcome to work in unless they comply to the arbitrary mandates and take shots they know no longer conform to the past definition of the word vaccine since they confer zero immunity.
  

       Government's response?
Make it illegal to protest outside of hospitals of course.
  

       Last months heroes... this months unemployed.
What a joke.
  

       // Government's response?
Make it illegal to protest outside of hospitals of course.//
  

       Is that in all of Canada, or just Quebec? (link)
a1, Oct 08 2021
  

       The trouble with facts is that there are plenty of facts to support all perspectives on any issue. Same with statistics. As long as we're blasting Truth Goo willy-nilly, here's a perspective:   

       Atlantis was a real place, located on the Atlantic mid- ocean ridge when it was above sea level. Their culture's ruins were hidden or destroyed for political reasons, but foretold periodic cataclysms / mass extinction events every 40,000 years or so, or as Lovecraft wrote: When the stars were right, [Cthulhu and friends] could plunge from world to world through the sky. The video "I Pet Goat II" appears to depict Covid as a Christ figure who leads those in the know out of the cities before the next cataclysm, in which existing towers and caves and some ancient monuments are destroyed. This is pretty much certainly the wrong understanding of events, but I like to speculate about it anyway, and it feels less dishonest than being told to wear a cloth face covering that demonstrably doesn't stop the spread rather than rolling my own high grade filtration and face shield system.
sninctown, Oct 08 2021
  

       // "I Pet Goat II" //   

       Aw man, you shouldn't reference a classic film without linking it! Everyone deserves a hallucination now and then.
a1, Oct 08 2021
  

       So here's the deal: go explain to the hospitals down south, say in Louisiana, who are filled beyond capacity exactly how it is that their wards are full of an amazing percentage of non-vaxed people, make a coherent theory that passes the laugh test, then come back to me. Until then, just no.
RayfordSteele, Oct 09 2021
  

       I got the two doses of vaccine because I see the chance as the same as me rolling round underneath a house and getting stabbed with a dirty nail. It just adds to my deck of cards to play , immunologically speaking.   

       Then again, I wonder if I make my immune system bolster looking outward , I'm up for my own cells running amuck more.   

       Well, I have to die of something.
wjt, Oct 09 2021
  

       Just because people are actually getting sick and dying of covid, and the vaccine is successfully preventing people of dying of covid, doesn't mean there isn't a grand conspiracy.
sninctown, Oct 09 2021
  

       //go explain to the hospitals down south, say in Louisiana, who are filled beyond capacity//   

       In Louisiana hospitals are reported by the state to be at 0-25% capacity due to covid. Linky.   

       So my explanation is that you are getting your news from a source that is lying to you.
Voice, Oct 09 2021
  

       //Just because people are actually getting sick and dying of covid, and the vaccine is successfully preventing people of dying of covid, doesn't mean there isn't a grand conspiracy.//   

       Never let a good crisis go to waste.
Voice, Oct 09 2021
  

       ^ (+)   

       //Is that in all of Canada, or just Quebec?//   

       It is being written into law here as we speak.
[link]
  

       Coming soon to a neighbourhood near you...   

       Let me know what actually passes in BC. Quebec’s laws 105 seemed very reasonable. Far short of outlawing protests, it only set up a buffer zone of 50 metres to prevent protesters from blocking entrances or intimidating people.
a1, Oct 09 2021
  

       Protests here were completely peaceful. Decades of pro-life etc. protests have peacefully been held in front of hospitals... no problem.   

       Suddenly health care professionals are no longer allowed their own voice.   

       ...and you think there is no con?   

       ...   

       really?   

       What, they’ve lost he ability to speak? They cannot write? They’re chained up in some dungeon without food or water or internet access or homing pigeons?   

       When they start rounding you up and putting you in camps because of your racial heritage, then you can complain that they’ve gone too far.
RayfordSteele, Oct 09 2021
  

       // Protests here were completely peaceful //   

       “Here?” Your town or province, this week? All of Canada in the past month or year? Reports of not completely peaceful incidents (link) must be fake or exaggerated.   

       Yet none of the laws you’ve cited (even the proposed ones not yet passed) prohibit protests. They prohibit the protestors getting too close to the doorways, from harassing or intimidating people entering or leaving the clinics. Similar laws have been in place for years to protect abortion clinics.
a1, Oct 09 2021
  

       //When they start rounding you up and putting you in camps because of your racial heritage, then you can complain that they’ve gone too far.//   

       Well see, you want to shut the gate 'before' the horse gets out. Not much use complaining after it gets out.   

       //“Here?” Your town or province, this week? All of Canada in the past month or year?//   

       Doesn't matter. What does matter is that you've chosen to attack the periphery of my statement while trying to ignoring the important part about doctors and nurses, (who probably know more than you or I), protesting arbitrary mandates based on a non-vaccine which will have them blackballed from the medical community for daring to resist.   

       To reiterate;   

       These non-vaccines will not stop the spread of the virus, they will not help me fight off a virus I've already gotten over, and they will not protect others from me.
Yet I am to be punished until I comply.
  

       It's a con for power and the more people who capitulate the greater the level of hatred directed towards those who refuse to.
It is almost impossible to convince someone they've been conned.
  

       [2_F] You might find this BMJ article interesting [link]   

       The BMJ is probably the most robustly incorruptible medical publication in the UK. Published by the BMA (Trade Union for doctors and physicians).   

       The article supports your position about natural immunity and there being questionable value in having a vaccine if you’ve already tested positive for COV-19
Frankx, Oct 09 2021
  

       From my link:   

       "The study also found that when recovered patients boosted their natural protection with a single vaccine shot — as recommended by Israeli health officials — their protection reached new highs, and they had approximately half the infection risk of other recovered patients."
4and20, Oct 09 2021
  

       The Lancet [link] publishes a report (the SIREN study) that shows prior infection to give at least 90% protection against re-infection.   

       So it seems likely that a vaccination after infection does boost immunity further, it also seems to be the case that the risk of side-effects also increases. It’s not clear whether the residual 10% risk of infection outweighs the risk of serious side- effects.   

       Also worth noting that across all vaccines, protection against infection is in the 65-85% range, but protection against serious illness (hospitalisation) is in the mid-90%.   

       And both natural and vaccinated protection fade significantly with time.   

       So still: if you’re unvaccinated and haven’t already had COVID, get the vaccine.
Frankx, Oct 09 2021
  

       There are a number of countries and/or islands which have gone largely unvaccinated for more than 18 months of the pandemic, and yet they still experiences waves of exceptionally high covid case numbers and deaths. I was considering using the graphs of daily cases per country on Wikipedia to guesstimate timespan between peaks, but my guess is that prior Covid recovery is not producing either lasting immunity or preventing retransmission.
4and20, Oct 09 2021
  

       // Yet I am to be punished until I comply. //   

       Yes, we did this to punish you personally. The other millions of deaths and worldwide social and economic impacts were merely collateral damage.   

       If only you would get the damned vaccine so we could track you better. Selfish twit.
a1, Oct 09 2021
  

       See?
That's what I don't get. I am somehow now considered selfish because I refuse to place myself in harms way because some other talking monkey tells me to.
  

       If the jab doesn't do a damned thing to protect others then society, with it's unwarranted, unconstitutional, and possibly illegal pressure, is welcome to go piss up a rope.
I know it's hard to admit you've been conned but ain't no number of ya draggin me into it just because the con was too big not to fall for.
  

       Individual humans are smart and usually rational.
Groups of people are a panicky critter which quickly becomes a mindless mob easily manipulated by whomever controls the media doled out.
They don't tell folks that doctors nurses and police men are protesting this bullshit, they just keep hammering the population with ever increasing doom'n'gloom stories while handing out small rays of hope just slightly prior to slamming down more restrictions because we somehow ruined the opportunity to be good we were given by people who have assumed power over our lives...
  

       ...because you give it to them!   

       I don't.
Deal with it and get off my back.
  

       Everyone is free to make choices for themselves but they have to take the consequences of that choice.   

       Wanting expensive help when options are there to limit the cost seems a bit harsh on the rest of us.   

       Then again, we mercifully treat idiots that don't use seat belts.
wjt, Oct 09 2021
  

       I didn't take up a hospital bed, I healed. I've avoided going to doctors my whole life unless I need to be stitched up because Murphy really likes me and because it hurts.
Not one of them have ever listened when I tell them that anesthesia doesn't work so good on me so I've had a dentist with a waiting room full of kids crack a tooth with no freezing and extract it in three pieces while trying not to scream. Another severed the nerve in my jaw with the syringe. I woke up three separate times once during the same endoscopic procedure and can no longer brush my back teeth without retching.
etc.
etc.
  

       I'm not taking up your hospital beds.
Give me my fucking rights back.
I'll take my chances... as is my right.
  

       Hands up.   

       Who's been put through Stockholm syndrome before?
<raises hand>
  

       Anybody?   

       <raises hand>
<twitches lower eyelid>
sninctown, Oct 10 2021
  

       So weight on ethics rather than laws. I'll agree with that.
wjt, Oct 10 2021
  

       // I'll take my chances... as is my right //   

       Go ahead. Stay away from others as much as you can and make sure they know your position so they can decide if they want to keep their distance from you.
a1, Oct 10 2021
  

       //Stay away from others as much as you can and make sure they know your position so they can decide if they want to keep their distance from you.//

Is that because vaccines don't work or...?
LimpNotes, Oct 10 2021
  

       Sorry to hear that [sninctown].
<eyelid twitches a little in response>
Con-dar is one of my side-effects. I am overly sensitive to being conned and I loathe those who use others entirely.
  

       Good luck trying it twice is all I can say.   

       //Go ahead. Stay away from others as much as you can and make sure they know your position so they can decide if they want to keep their distance from you.//   

       Will that keep them safe?   

       Your medical history has never been and is still none of my fucking business.
(I'm debating hanging that as a sign on my front door)
How long before the hospitality industry can no longer host you without compliance?
  

       Fools.   

       These non-vaccines are a placebo to keep 'free' societies quiescent until it's too late to do anything about what's happening in places not yet effected near you.   

       ...   

       Let's hear some feedback from our Aussie contingency.   

       You guys still allowed to share news from down-under? Shit went sideways fast didn't it?   

       First they came for the anti-vaxxers...   

       No wait. First they disarmed you all... and then they came for the anti-vaxxers.   

       My bad.   

       Can't speak for the other states, but here in Western Australia, things continue fine. There are virtually no restrictions on normal life, except it's a hassle visiting other states. The other day, I was passed by a lone cyclist who was playing amplified songs about conspiracy by the CDC (which doesn't exist in Australia). This cyclist was riding through a park which was full of families who didn't have to wear masks or social-distance, for the simple reason that we have successfully kept the virus out.   

       There are a few stickers around on lamp-posts urging revolt against the new normal, except that the new normal is very similar to the old normal, so there's really not much to revolt against.   

       That's how it is here in reality. What have you been hearing, [2 fries]?
pertinax, Oct 10 2021
  

       Well I'm glad someone's optimistic. What happens next, when covid infections inevitably continue despite the vaccinations?
sninctown, Oct 10 2021
  

       Most likely, we'll eventually have to open our borders for economic reasons, at which point infections will start (and I emphasise "start", not "continue") and hundreds of people will die. But that'll be better than the thousands of people who would have died if we'd opened up before getting vaccinated.   

       It's a pity, because literally no-one in this state has died from COVID* in more than a year. However, it became inevitable because other jurisdictions failed to wipe out the virus when they had the chance.   

       *neither from COVID, nor with COVID, nor by, in or on COVID.
pertinax, Oct 10 2021
  

       You of all people shouldn't believe what you see in the media [2 Fries]. Pertinax has it right. If our state had the same Covid death rate per Capita as the US we would have had 5,500+ deaths. We've had 9. Total. From the beginning. Everything is wide open here, my wife and I went to a fully- crowded restaurant last night - not a mask in sight. I speak DAILY to people in the eastern parts of Australia and they're mystified at the wild-eyed reports that are showing up in the media about how terrible their lives are. (Hint: They're not). Go onto the /r/Australia subReddit on Reddit to see what real Australians think about these reports.   

       If Australia as a whole had the same death rate per Capita as Canada, we'd have 19,980 corpses instead of 1,432. Those 18,858 lives mean something to us. I know, I know, many of those still living people may have other health issues and "ve must let zee veak perish" for the good of society and all, but I'd rather not.   

       I suspect my own father *may* have died of Covid in Canada this Xmas, but by the time a family friend told me he'd really been struggling to breath the prior week, he'd already been cremated and no tests were ever done. Doesn't matter to him after the fact I guess, but I bet there's tonnes of other cases which aren't identified because the 'person was old anyway'. Have a look at the 'excess mortality' chart [link] which shows that the plague nations like the UK and US have mortality rates 18% and 24% above expected levels while Australia...doesn't.   

       The virus WILL come to Western Australia and probably it will be soon. We're finally getting an adequate supply of vaccines but have only 50% of the 16+ folks vaccinated yet. My family of 5 is double-jabbed as of 2 days ago and we've done all we can reasonably do. I just hope we continue to ignore our tiny contingent of anti-vax whack-a-doodles and get somewhere near the levels to provide herd immunity. After that, it's just 'herd thinning'.   

       I have been in and out of hospital for some treatments and talk to the staff. They are petrified of an outbreak here and are all vaxxed themselves. As for the whole 'You'll get it anyway and natural immunity is best' line - maybe. But I'd rather be vaxxed first THEN get a breakthrough case with a 19x less chance of serious illness or death. That whole '1 in 50 chance of dying' thing doesn't appeal.   

       And if I needed a gun, for some reason, I could get one but doubt it would help much against a virus. Unless someone can tell me how it would.   

       ...   

       ...   

       anyone?
AusCan531, Oct 10 2021
  

       // And if I needed a gun, for some reason, I could get one but doubt it would help much against a virus. Unless someone can tell me how it would. //   

       Easily. A lead weight (115 grain or somewhat larger) injected in your adversaries before they get too close may protect you from infection. But you need a lot of them (one per adversary) and there’s a lot to clean up. Or one could administer a single dose into their own temple or mouth to protect against all other harms.   

       Overall, vaccines are more practical than bullets.
a1, Oct 10 2021
  

       //Have a look at the 'excess mortality' chart //

Good resource. What the hell happened in Peru!?
LimpNotes, Oct 10 2021
  

       //That's how it is here in reality. What have you been hearing, [2 fries]?//   

       That your police are granting themselves excessive power.
That they've locked down your citizens.
That they are shooting rubber bullets at protesters.
That Farcebook banned any news coming out.
  

       The rumour
(though I'm pretty sure this is a false one... at least I hope it is),
is that if you get pulled over down there and don't have proof of vaccination the cops will inject you themselves.
  

       It's very simple: The obedient are permitted all other liberties for now, and so they don't feel repressed. Only those who disobey will notice any significant repression. And for those who believe the official statements obedience with this demand is something they would perform without any duress. To such people those unwilling to conform are on the other team and therefore are evil and not worth worrying about.   

       If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say something about slicing rights away from the populace one at a time and that the right to refuse medical treatment is a pretty damned important one.
Voice, Oct 10 2021
  

       I don't agree with everything the government is doing - that never happens anyway. But it ain't what you see in the media and the VAST majority of the people are fine with the new rules until we get the vax rates up.   

       I know [2 Fries] everyone but you is being conned, you see the truth and you're tired of 'being right'. You remind me of the guy in the 200 person marching band who, after the big parade, states proudly to his mother - "Did you notice that I was the only one in step!"   

       [2 Fries] You should know better than to go onto Facebook. Most of what you've heard is rubbish.   

       [Voice], I'm happy to give as much airtime to people going on about their 'rights' as they want as they like - on the proviso that they give equal time to their responsibilities.   

       Seriously you guys, hypothetically, WHAT IF there really was a virulent pandemic ripping through the population (Ebola or such) and you're in charge. What WOULD you guys do other than limit the spread through lockdowns & restricting travel until a vaccine could be developed? What would you do with those numnies who insist upon 'their rights' so they can go to Starbucks anyway - no matter the consequences to anyone else?
AusCan531, Oct 11 2021
  

       //The rumour//   

       You are correct: it's false.   

       The steady increase in the powers of police and government ministers *is* a real phenomenon, and you're right to be worried about that, but that's been going on at least since 9/11, and is only incidentally COVID- related.
pertinax, Oct 11 2021
  

       //but that's been going on at least since 9/11, and is only incidentally COVID- related.//   

       Yep... seriously premeditated. Long-con for sure. As far as I can tell been around since Christ was a cowboy.   

       //[2 Fries] You should know better than to go onto Facebook. Most of what you've heard is rubbish.//   

       You've met me and you should know better than to assume that my friend. This ain't my first rodeo.
Just Google "Australian police covid" and start reading the headlines.
  

       //so they can go to Starbucks anyway - no matter the consequences to anyone else?//   

       That's my whole point!   

       What are the consequences you incur by my noncompliance?   

       What are they?!   

       Non-vaccinated or un-non-vaccinated, I can still give this virus to your kids... but one of those "types" of people can come for dinner at your house, and one of those "types" of people can not...   

       ...because you've been told so.   

       I just see folks buying into being told that they are "types".   

       Everything I said, besides the cops sticking you with needles themselves, was taken directly from news sources.
Here, I will do it for you. [link]
  

       That cop-injection thing is just a verbal rumour going around from friends and family of people living there.   

       The rest of what I said is bang on the money.   

       Loss of freedoms // that's been going on at least since 9/11 // doesn't sound good... i don't want to get too controversial here so instead i humbly submit a few out-of- context quotes from "Deus Ex" (2000), an entertaining videogame:
- Ask me, I think the government [C4'd the statue]. They want people to think the NSF are terrorists.
- For a hundred years, there’s been a conspiracy of plutocrats against ordinary people.
- I think the government made the plague on purpose to get rid of the population growth.
- UNATCO assumes that people are incapable of protecting themselves and therefore should submit to surveillance and intimidation by an outside force.
- The Gray Death is a man-made virus. Everyone up to the President is at UNATCO's mercy as long as UNATCO controls the supply of Ambrosia.
sninctown, Oct 11 2021
  

       I'm sorry [2_F] - I think some of this debate gets heated because we're all agreeing on some stuff without actually being explicit about what we're disagreeing on. I'm grateful that because of this debate I looked up the effectiveness of natural immunity - which was enlightening.   

       So, a summary of the main points of contention (and my position on each)   

       1) COVID-19 vaccines are ineffective: No. 65%-85% protection from infection, ~90% protection from life-threatening illness   

       2) Natural Immunity is more effective: Yes, probably. ~90% protection from infection. But you have to suffer a life-threatening illness to get it   

       3) COVID-19 is an engineered virus, deliberately released from a Govt-sponsored lab (in Wuhan/somewhere else): No. So many reasons.   

       4) The Government is corrupt (or perhaps politicians have their own selfish interests): Yes. (extent depends on which politician/government)   

       5) The Government want to limit the rights of the individual: Yes. This is fundamental in the concept of Government   

       6) The Government has passed legislation during the COVID pandemic that undermines rights: Yes. UK Gov. have rushed through some dodgy legislation while people weren’t paying attention   

       7) Big Pharma routinely lies to us, and have friends in the Govt: Yes, quite likely.   

       8) Big Pharma have rushed vaccine production, and lied to us about effectiveness and side-effects: Kind of. Vaccine development, testing and production was rushed. Effectiveness figures have been revised downward. Side effects have been downplayed   

       9) Big Pharma lied to us and used their friends in authority to knowingly release ineffective and dangerous vaccines just to make money: No.   

       10) The Govt/Scientists knew this was coming: Yes. Epidemiologists and virologists have been warning for decades that a major pandemic was imminent. Many Govts did not pay enough attention because they did not understand the risk.   

       11) The Govt had plans for this: Yes, in response to the warnings from scientists, some Governments had some emergency preparedness plans in place. Probably not enough though.   

       12) The Govt want to take away your guns: Yes. Nations with fewer guns have fewer gun-related crimes.   

       13) The Govt can read all your emails, social media, etc: Yes. But they’re probably not that interested.   

       14) If you talk negatively about the vaccine on social media, you’ll be “silenced”: Yes. FB and others are blocking “antivax-type content” because some people who get convinced not to have the vaccine will die. Misinformation genuinely costs lives.
Frankx, Oct 11 2021
  

       // I'm happy to give as much airtime to people going on about their 'rights' as they want as they like - on the proviso that they give equal time to their responsibilities.//   

       The right to free speech? That's a pretty important one. Too bad you've immediately crippled your conceptualization of even that as you conflated allowing people to talk about rights with allowing people to have rights. At this point you may as well be arguing about which boot heel is softest on one's face.
Voice, Oct 12 2021
  

       Okay [2 Fries], I amend my previous comment to say that it's *mostly* BS. Like I say, I speak to people in Melbourne and Sydney almost daily.
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       [Voice] Yep,Free speech is an important right. Doesn't mean anyone is forced to listen to you or call you out when they think you're full of it. Once again, another anti-vaxxer going to lecture me about the importance of 'their rights' with nada to say about their responsibilities.   

       Actions have Consequences - and not only to the 'free speaker'. This time, these 'protesters' in Melbourne who were smashing down office doors also nicely managed to spread Covid around a city which was working hard to eliminate a minor break-out. Now other people will get ill and possibly die because of it.   

       I know you guys think the virus (or its consequences) are fake news. The Vaccine is fake news. The lockdowns are fascism, etc. but neither [2 Fries] nor [Voice] answered my question: "WHAT IF there really was a virulent pandemic ripping through the population (Ebola or such) and you're in charge. What WOULD you guys do other than limit the spread through lockdowns & restricting travel until a vaccine could be developed? What would you do with those numnies who insist upon 'their rights' so they can go to Starbucks anyway - no matter the consequences to anyone else?"
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       // "WHAT IF there really was a virulent pandemic ripping through the population (Ebola or such) and you're in charge. What WOULD you guys do other than limit the spread through lockdowns & restricting travel until a vaccine could be developed? What would you do with those numnies who insist upon 'their rights' so they can go to Starbucks anyway - no matter the consequences to anyone else?"//   

       So this is a dress rehearsal is it?   

       These non-vaccines will not stop the transmission of this virus. It will run its course and all we can do is slow it down. I agree with this.
Wash your hands.
Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing or just get the chills.
Take whatever preventive medicines present themselves if you feel that you are at risk.
Common sense.
  

       What are my responsibilities exactly?   

       Putting myself in harms way so that you can get your placebo and pretend that you are safe from all of this if I conform?   

       Yeah... no.
How about no?
  

       You are still a carrier. I am still a carrier.
Believing that one of us deserves rights the other does not is not what I call sane.
It is a conditioned response whether you want to admit it or not.
  

       This plandemic has nothing to do with saving the masses.
Quite the opposite if my gut is correct yet again. You have no idea how much I hope it's wrong this time.
  

       I guess we'll see won't we? Either way, keep your definition-changed non-vaccines the fuck away from me just because I bloody well said so.   

       I need no other reason, as I have not given away the right for anyone else to demand one, so any other reason you can also think of will do just fine.   

       Label me whateverthehellyouwant... I ain't budging.   

       The only herd immunity being built globally is against Stockholm Syndrome.
You'll see.
  

       So no serious answer to my question but a bunch more paranoid "it's all a plandemic" BS. You say I'm not sane while going on about shadowy forces in the background always planning nefarious ways to 'get you' and hold you down. You're the only one smart enough to see through this because of your 'gut'.   

       You do that while I'll do my bit to keep my fellow citizens alive. PS, beware of 'big lifejacket' [link]
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       TRUTH GOO
sninctown, Oct 12 2021
  

       Can anyone show us that vaccines have zero or little impact on the likelihood of transmission?   

       Because here's what the CDC claims: "Studies from multiple countries found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(171-176) "
4and20, Oct 12 2021
  

       Hi AusCan531, I'll try & give you a serious answer.

For me lockdown & travel restrictions are not a serious problem & they clearly slowed down the spread of the virus (masks are a joke though; most people don't wear them properly & re-use the same one. That seems to me to be what Bruce Schneier would call 'security theatre').

However, politicians world wide have seen the crisis as an opportunity to grant themselves additional powers that are not going to go away. At no point was there an appeal to people's common sense. Nope. Straight to emergency measures. Clearly governments did not & do not trust citizens to act responsibly. Is it any wonder that many citizens reciprocate the feeling?

So, for me, this reflects a much deeper political issue that goes well beyond the virus. Am I an anti-vaxxer? No. I've had vaccinations a-plenty. But things like Covid passports set my alarm bells ringing. In the UK there have been several attempts to introduce ID cards. All of them defeated because they impact on people's freedom & change the relationship between the government & citizens. And now we see that once again they are trying to sneak them in under cover of a health crisis.

COVID may be the casus belli but it is not the true agenda. Is there some enormous conspiracy? Nope. There doesn't have to be. People in power are opportunistic & grab for more power when the chance comes their way. So don't give them the opportunity. Get your vaccination or don't. People who do shouldn't have too much to fear from those who don't. Those who don't have no excuses if they contract the disease. But, in this day & age, compulsory anything leads to compulsory monitoring.

Fishbone for the idea wjt, because of the political agenda it represents, although I kinda like the helping not shooting idea of the game.
DrBob, Oct 12 2021
  

       Thanks Dr Bob. Great anno. Depending upon which way you look at it, there are 2 sayings which may be relevant:   

       "Just because someone is paranoid, it doesn't mean they don't have enemies."   

       and the one I think fits best   

       “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." - Sigmund Freud.   

       I don't care too much if some individuals choose to bunker down into their position that the virus or the vaccine or the entire medical community is all an evil plot then choose not to get the jab personally. I do care that they insist on propagating that conspiratorial nonsense out to others - especially on this otherwise happy little website. I was going to ignore it this time round and move on until there was a specific request to hear from the Aussie contingent who were presumably under the jackboots of fascism or such hyped up nonsense. . I responded.
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       // I responded.//

Yep. Ditto on that! :)
DrBob, Oct 12 2021
  

       I think the whole issue really summarizes to an argument of ends justifing means.
1. The vaccine is good, therefore forcing everyone to get vaccines is good.
2. Forcing people to get vaccines is bad, therefore the vaccine must be bad.
3. The vaccine is good, but forcing people to get the vaccine is bad.
4. The vaccine is bad, but forcing people to get the vaccine is good.
I think most people fall into camp 3. But most arguments are between camps 1 and 2.
Members in camp 4 just keep hoping but don't really discuss it.
LimpNotes, Oct 12 2021
  

       My position on many things like this is:
Educate first, legislate later.
Very few people complain about wearing a seatbelt, because we have all learned that it's actually a good idea. Some people still don't "get it", & those people get fined when they are caught (depending on local laws).
Likewise, vaccines. We are in the "cross-over" period; much education has been done, but some people still haven't learned yet, so laws etc are being put in place.
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 12 2021
  

       //Educate first, legislate later.//   

       That's all well and good, until thousands of people are dying daily. Dying isn't the only downside - surviving can have costs too. [link]   

       Believe it or not, I have sympathy for the position of people against being 'forced' to vaccinate. I mean, my family and I done so willingly, but that position has merit and it's certainly something worth discussion - even heated discussion. I haven't forced my employees to do so even though I legally could.   

       That's very different though than saying 'the virus was planned' 'it's no worse than the flu' 'the vaccine doesn't work' 'the vaccine does work but it's full of brain-controlling nano- chips or whatever' and spreading misinformation trying to convince other people not to get the jab. I also don't go for the "You're all conned fools, I'm always right and you'll see - you'll ALL see mwuhhahahha" BS.
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       Nice summation [limpnotes] but I'd add one more category   

       5. The Vaccine is good and people not getting it contributes to 10s or 100s of thousands of unnecessary deaths, which is kinda bad and should not be encouraged.
AusCan531, Oct 12 2021
  

       I like it. I think there are more. Another thought that comes up about cons. In sales, if you have a genuinely beneficial product, and your prospect doesn't trust you, they will think you are conning them and you will fail to make a sale, but it's your fault as a salesperson if that happens. You have failed to establish trust, and I think that has been an issue since the beginning. Now salesmen can't force someone to buy into something, but leaders can. So it's not really about poor salesmanship, it's about poor leadership. People listen to leaders and they resist tyrants.

Sales often relies on emotional appeals, but certain emotional appeals related to covid rely on fear, obligation, and guilt (FOG) and these are the same tools that emotional manipulators use in abusive relationships. It's not surprising that people are recognizing that and being triggered by it and resisting it. But again, that is the fault of the salesman or leadership. If there is a legitimately valuable product, that isn't selling FOG, then start using those sales pitches.

All the people who can be sold on FOG, are already sold. And like a salesman who needs to adjust his pitch for that client he can't close, I think everyone would benefit if we could evolve some new reasons to buy. For those hard to close clients.
LimpNotes, Oct 13 2021
  

       ^Umm if avoiding death and lingering ailments ain't good enough, then good luck to you. Although...Vax rates DO go up when people are offered free donuts or lottery entries so you may be onto something. Blow me down if I know why the first isn't enough but the second is.
AusCan531, Oct 13 2021
  

       Meh. People buy for different reasons. What sold you or me might not sell the next guy. But at the bottom of it all is trust. A salesman that isn't trusted, can't sell anything. And I think that is where leadership has made mistakes. In destroying trust. I think problems will continue until it can be restablished.
LimpNotes, Oct 13 2021
  

       I did answer your question [AusCan], not that there is any one brain running this show but if it were up to me I would institute exactly what I said.
Common sense.
  

       This virus will run its course and all we can do is slow it down.   

       Restricting personal freedoms while every single person remains a carrier is an arbitrary bias not based on logic. It is based on control and too many chefs in the kitchen.   

       As long as mandates are not based on logic then following them only enables the establishment of a very dangerous precedence which I for one am not on board with.
That's all.
  

       I speak for not one single person other than myself...
...but I highly doubt I am alone.
  

       I've just lost the few fucks I had to give about how other people's offence somehow became my responsibility.   

       ...   

       What exactly 'was' my responsibility again? You didn't really answer.   

       // What exactly 'was' my responsibility again? //   

       "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the Law, all the rest is commentary."
a1, Oct 13 2021
  

       [a1]; where is that version of the Golden Rule from? It reads like it's (a translation) from the Qu'ran.
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 13 2021
  

       Good words, but what is the meaning?   

       It's obvious to me from the rhythm of history that // COVID-19 is an engineered virus, deliberately released // but admittedly it's a bit out there to consider this. Oh well, I tried (to persuade the people to call for something less destructive). Presumably I will be wrong, and my wrongness will become obvious within the next year, as rising vaccination rates eliminate covid transmission. Ah well. At least these days it's marginally acceptable to wear a respirator to buy groceries, which looks very cyberpunk.
sninctown, Oct 13 2021
  

       [neutrinos_shadow] - various sources, but mostly cribbed from Rabbi Hillel the Elder. It was his reply to a gentile who sarcastically asked to be taught the Torah while he stood on one foot.
a1, Oct 13 2021
  

       // from the rhythm of history //   

       Hmm? Is there a history of engineered viruses being intentionally released?
a1, Oct 14 2021
  

       //"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the Law, all the rest is commentary."//   

       Great.
I agree to these terms and conditions and in addition also promise not to use my power to turn your friends/neighbours /relatives/employers /etc... against you until you conform to my will even if I wouldn't mind that being done to me.
  

       Deal?   

       //that version of the Golden Rule//   

       I believe it's traditionally known as "the Silver Rule", since, unlike the golden rule, it does not ask anyone to be actively helpful.   

       (I'm not making a polemical point here, just being a history- of- ideas nerd; carry on, everyone).
pertinax, Oct 14 2021
  

       // I agree to … not to use my power to turn your friends/neighbours /relatives/employers /etc... against you //   

       Thank you for this. Just curious though, do you believe you have this power?
a1, Oct 14 2021
  

       Yes, however actually using those powers is superfluous in this case, when one's charming personality suffices.
sninctown, Oct 14 2021
  

       //Thank you for this. Just curious though, do you believe you have this power?//   

       I was asked what I would do if I was in charge so I Just assumed I must have been offered the position.   

       First, this virus is never going to "run it's course". At least not for decades. At this point it has multiple animal reservoirs, and is widely considered endemic. So a decision to not get what protection you can is not just short term.   

       Second, of course everyone "could" be a carrier. But your odds on being one are somewhere between 3:1 and 9:1 worse if you aren't vaccinated. The Israeli data, which had some of the worst numbers to date showed that you were 3x more likely to have a Covid infection if you weren't vaccinated than if you were. Various studies where the complete population of an area were tested regularly produced significantly better numbers.   

       And every one of those vaccinated people who don't get it also don't pass it on. And that's why vaccine mandates exist, and have as long as vaccines have existed. Just as our laws prohibit the freedom to drive drunk, they are permitted to prohibit the freedom to spread infection unnecessarily. This prohibition represents a compelling government interest, vaccination is narrowly tailored to achieve it, and is the least intrusive way of achieving that interest.   

       And yes, that last sentence represents the total requirements of strict scrutiny.
MechE, Oct 14 2021
  

       Ooh, compelling government interest. Hold on a minute, let me get my head in just the right position for some serious boot licking. If it's good for the government it's good for all of us!
Voice, Oct 14 2021
  

       Strictly speaking, vaccination works *against* the government's interest, to the extent that, if lots of old people died a little earlier, then governments could stop paying their pensions and (depending on jurisdiction) health benefits.   

       Clearly, some fiendishly cunning double bluff is in play here.
pertinax, Oct 14 2021
  

       Yep. Layers. Mostly psychological in nature.   

       //First, this virus is never going to "run it's course". At least not for decades. At this point it has multiple animal reservoirs, and is widely considered endemic. So a decision to not get what protection you can is not just short term.//   

       Oh its gonna run its course all right. There's no stuffing the Genie back into the bottle.   

       Well, first off that decision to accept or not accept protection is mine to make, not societies, and since I survived the first wave of it my body has produced it's own antibodies so getting jabbed will do neither myself or the public at large a damned bit of good. It's not about protecting us, it's about compliance.   

       //Second, of course everyone "could" be a carrier. But your odds on being one are somewhere between 3:1 and 9:1 worse if you aren't vaccinated. The Israeli data, which had some of the worst numbers to date showed that you were 3x more likely to have a Covid infection if you weren't vaccinated than if you were. Various studies where the complete population of an area were tested regularly produced significantly better numbers.//   

       Now see those numbers are saying two different things.
Carrying the covid virus on your person and having a covid infection are not the same thing are they? Yet you would swap one for the other as proof.
Since only the "vaccinated" will be travelling, then only "vaccinated" people will be spreading this outside of the lock-down areas arbitrarily imposed on non-compliers.
  

       //And every one of those vaccinated people who don't get it also don't pass it on. And that's why vaccine mandates exist, and have as long as vaccines have existed.//   

       Blatantly not true. If there is any disinformation to point your finger at it is that assumption. That as long as you comply with the shots you are not a carrier.
Total horseshit.
  

       Vaccine mandates exist because they were based on the previous definition of the word 'Vaccine'. Actual vaccines conforming to the previous definition which was changed to facilitate this shit-show confer immunity to the percentage of people they are effective on.   

       Immunity!   

       That word was removed from the definition and these Non-Vaccines confer immunity to exactly zero percent of the population and since the mandate laws were written with the previous definition in mind these Non-Mandates are invalid. They have been shoved down our throats through verbal sleight-of-hand.   

       No immunity?   

       Then it is not a vaccine. It is a pharma-band-aid masquerading as a vaccine while assuming the sweeping powers attributed to the real McCoy.   

       Sounds to me like we need to start calling these mandatory shots something other than the word vaccine because it is the crux which this entire con pivots on.   

       How about we call them what they really are, inoculations, just like the flu shots which don't allow governments the power to take away an individuals rights when they they say "Thanks but no thanks."   

       How about that?   

       You do realize that back when the word was created, they had significantly less understanding of the mechanics of immunity, don't you? You're conflating historical etymological imprecision with intentional deception.   

       And you still haven't adequately answered the question concerning an Ebola strain breakout.   

       And Ian Watson's short quip fails to address the truly deranged.   

       If it's all just hype, then why not prove it? Go wander around the COVID wing, give a big ole hot kiss to the first younger ventilated patient you see, and report back in a couple months. Be sure and wear a sign though declaring your intentions so people can avoid you like the plague.
RayfordSteele, Oct 15 2021
  

       //You do realize that back when the word was created, they had significantly less understanding of the mechanics of immunity, don't you? You're conflating historical etymological imprecision with intentional deception.//   

       I am saying that not one single individual human has been rendered immune to this virus yet rights over my life have been assumed based on past definitions not current ones. These things are usually publicaly debated before changes occur. That has not been the case this time... comply or you will lose your standing in society and job citizen. No arguments!   

       //And you still haven't adequately answered the question concerning an Ebola strain breakout.//   

       Haven't I? I remember answering, "logic and common sense" what do you remember?   

       //And Ian Watson's short quip fails to address the truly deranged.//   

       Ah, I see you clicked on my profile page. Yes I totally agree with your assessment of his quote which is why I added the proviso about not subjecting others to segregation even if that is something I would be onboard with.   

       If the rules are insane, then those making the rules need to go.   

       No, I clicked on your link.   

       I don't see anything terribly detailed. What are the specifics of your plan. Remember, time is of the essence.
RayfordSteele, Oct 15 2021
  

       Plan?   

       Personally? Or Emperorially?   

       I see you added this bit to the mix after I began to reply to you;   

       //If it's all just hype, then why not prove it? Go wander around the COVID wing, give a big ole hot kiss to the first younger ventilated patient you see, and report back in a couple months. Be sure and wear a sign though declaring your intentions so people can avoid you like the plague.//   

       ...and if I did? Would that snap you all out of it?   

       But you do realise that the anti-vaccine conspiracy is a deliberate mis-information campaign by the Russian secret state agencies to undermine stability in western democracies?
Frankx, Oct 15 2021
  

       I'm thinking you've already snapped something.
RayfordSteele, Oct 15 2021
  

       //compelling government interest// You do understand that that particular phrase is a legal term, correct? And that keeping it's citizens alive has always been considered one.
MechE, Oct 15 2021
  

       //Blatantly not true. If there is any disinformation to point your finger at it is that assumption. That as long as you comply with the shots you are not a carrier//   

       I agree that isn't true, because it isn't what I said. I said that if you get the vaccination you have a greatly reduced chance of being a carrier. Which is true. The risk from a vaxxed population is hugely lower than an unvaxxed population. A vaxxed and tested population, which is what most countries are requiring for travel is even lower.   

       // That word was removed from the definition and these Non-Vaccines confer immunity to exactly zero percent of the population and since the mandate laws were written with the previous definition in mind these Non-Mandates are invalid. They have been shoved down our throats through verbal sleight-of-hand.??   

       And that simply isn't true. If they result in a 2/3 reduction in infections (infections, not cases), that is conferring immunity on 66% of the population. That's how every vaccine has worked in the past, and it is how this one works. For some reason the fact that these vaccines were FIRST authorized because they reduced severe illness and death has resulted in anti-vaxxers ignoring fact that we've since determined that they prevent infections as well.   

       PS Inoculating with a non pathogenic or weakened pathogenic material is vaccination.
MechE, Oct 15 2021
  

       Also, the earlier definition (pre-covid) was:   

       //a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease//   

       If a vaccine automatically created full immunity, it would not be possible to "increase" immunity. It would be a binary yes or no. So even that definition agrees that something that gives partial immunity is still a vaccine.
MechE, Oct 15 2021
  

       The MMR vaccine has been around forever and doesn’t have 100% effectiveness.
RayfordSteele, Oct 15 2021
  

       // You do understand that that particular phrase is a legal term, correct?//   

       Yes, but I don't particularly care. A person only has the rights they're willing to defend, and stepping down as soon as you hear some legalese is not part of that.   

       //And that keeping it's citizens alive has always been considered one.//   

       Among many other more repressive ones, yes. But again I don't care. If the people are willing to give up their rights the moment they're read a law or even a riot act they'll soon be under the rule of a dictator. Have your tea back straight from the sea!
Voice, Oct 15 2021
  

       //it isn't what I said. I said that if you get the vaccination you have a greatly reduced chance of being a carrier. Which is true.//   

       How so?
Tested I agree with.
Mandated to conform I do not agree with.
  

       // that is conferring immunity on 66% of the population. That's how every vaccine has worked in the past, and it is how this one works.
PS Inoculating with a non pathogenic or weakened pathogenic material is vaccination.//
  

       Am I not completely immune to Polio? You're telling me my kids can still get Polio after their 'vaccination'?
Not one single human being on Earth has been given immunity from this. We're in for the long haul.
  

       I've already been inoculated with the full strength pathogenic material in question, (I will leave the pathonogenic material in question unnamed since it seems to want to change its name every so often) and decline participation in this particular conformitorium.
Thanks to whom-it-may-concern for the offer/opportunity/ultimatum, but no thank you.
  

       Are we done then?
Even though I didn't jump through your hoops I can go to movies and take my wife out to dinner again?
  

       That'd be great. Our anniversary isn't too far away so if you rule making folks could get your shit together before June or so that would be totally awesome.   

       Totes luv, thnx fam.   

       // Can I go to the movies and out to dinner ? //   

       Sure. Will you shower and put on clean clothes? Will you even WEAR clothes? If you have to use the toilet, will you be good enough to go to the restroom instead of relieving yourself on the theatre floor or restaurant chair?   

       You’re not giving up any rights in abiding to social conventions. You’re not oppressed if refused service for showing up as a smelly, unwashed choom. And that’s where we’re at right now on masks and vaccines. Yelling “you can’t make me” like a toddler who doesn’t want to wear pants doesn’t convince anyone that you’re a brilliant sage. Quite the opposite.
a1, Oct 16 2021
  

       You don't get to decide what everyone else does. Half of the nation doesn't get to decide that. Nor do you or half the nation get to decide what's good and right. A comparison to social conventions that go back thousands of years is laughably inappropriate.
Voice, Oct 16 2021
  

       //You don't get to decide what everyone else does.//   

       That's true. However, a restaurateuse does get to decide what people may do in her restaurant, and executives of an airline do get to decide what people may do on their aircraft, and the principal of a school does get to decide what people may do in their school.   

       There's a good case for setting up a recognised system to certify past- infection status alongside the systems for certifying vaccination status which are now emerging. However, until such a system exists, you can understand why people with responsibility for their customers' safety are insisting on vaccination.
pertinax, Oct 16 2021
  

       // You don't get to decide … Half of the nation doesn't get to decide //   

       “I don’t wanna, you can’t make me, nobody can tell me what to do! WAAAAHH!”   

       Actually I don’t care if [2f] or anyone else chooses not to get vaccinated - as long as they stay away from other people.
a1, Oct 16 2021
  

       // However, a restaurateuse does get to decide what people may do in her restaurant//   

       No they are being told what their decision is under threat of having their license revoked.   

       //and executives of an airline do get to decide what people may do on their aircraft//   

       No they are being told what their decision is to be under threat.   

       // and the principal of a school does get to decide what people may do in their school.//   

       No they don't. They are told their decisions about who is and isn't allowed through their doors.   

       //Actually I don’t care if [2f] or anyone else chooses not to get vaccinated - as long as they stay away from other people.//   

       Why is that?.. and do try a little logic instead of just name-calling while insisting that I am the one acting like a child.
If you are "vaccinated" then how am I a threat to you? You refuse to answer that.
Inoculations do not confer the right to enforce mandates. My employer isn't blackmailed into firing me if I didn't get the flu shot this year... and nobody so far has answered my question about being immune to Polio.
  

       No-immunity = Non-vaccine = Illegal-mandates   

       You've been fear-mongered into segregation and now gleefully discriminate against people who refuse to be fear-mongered as we are divided before being conquered and you deem it a "social convention".   

       You spew hate and are not rational.   

       //Am I not completely immune to Polio? You're telling me my kids can still get Polio after their 'vaccination'? Not one single human being on Earth has been given immunity from this. We're in for the long haul.//   

       The CDC has a page on this, it says: ::Two doses of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) are 90% effective or more against polio; three doses are 99% to 100% effective.::
...
::It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV.::
  

       So it looks like the polio vaccine gives pretty good protection for a good number of years. But not quite a perfect 100%, and maybe not for life.[1]   

       The thing to recognise here is that different viral diseases have distinct biology. Just like, say, different predators (wolves, lions, bears, crocodiles, etc) are different. If you absolutely positively have to trek on foot by yourself through their territory, there are probably things you can do to defend against all of them. But they're not necessarily completely protective.   

       In this case, covid-19 is a coronavirus, which is the sort of virus which causes the common cold. It's widely recognised that you can get a cold more than once - in fact several times a year. Conversely, diseases like measles are generally once-in-a-lifetime infections. [2]   

       'Common cold' viruses seem to have the ability to minimise how much they provoke the immune system, and the resistance induced by infection seems to fade. So there was certainly a concern that protection conferred by the covid-19 vaccines wouldn't last very long. However, as I understand it, as time goes on the data does seem to support longer-term protection against all of infection, morbidity and mortality.   

       I've also seen it reported that being vaccinated after having covid boosts resistance significantly, so even if you think you've had the disease, it's still worth getting vaccinated, particularly if you're older.   

       --   

       [1] That doesn't matter so much, because vaccines confer a population-level benefit. If 'everybody' is vaccinated, then any sporadic cases (from other, unprotected populations, or animal reservoirs) won't spread very much, so won't become outbreaks. Meaning that those with only partial protection probably won't be exposed to the disease anyway. Obviously, this falls down when people become complacent and don't bother to be vaccinated.   

       [2] I believe there already exist a number of vaccines which need the occasional booster to extend protection. There's not really any controversy over this; it's just how it is.
Loris, Oct 16 2021
  

       Thank you that was very informative. I have only one bone of contention with what you've written.   

       //It's widely recognized that you can get a cold more than once - in fact several times a year.//   

       Ah but you can't catch the same cold twice.
"When you get sick, you develop antibodies for the virus serotype you’ve caught, Dr. Greninger explains. This keeps you from catching it again right away. But those antibodies won’t necessarily protect you from other forms of the virus.
  

       Say you catch the serotype HRV (human rhinovirus)-A60, then improve right as your partner catches HRV-C17. You could get the common cold again if your body is vulnerable to that new rhinovirus serotype."   

       So you can't catch the same cold twice and since I've already been inoculated with the active virus in question only variants of this crap can get me, and since my immune system has produced antibodies on its own without landing me in a hospital I will fight off variants more easily than I already fought off the original.   

       Therefore I 'am' vaccinated and have actual immunity to the original virus unlike the folks coerced into taking 'shots' under the threat of unemployment and becoming outcast.
I have arranged my life in such a way that these threats do not work on me and I will not be bullied into compliance by society ostracizing me.
  

       If you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized... If all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest.   

       // I don’t care anyone chooses not to get vaccinated - as long as they stay away from other people.//   

       // Why is that… ? //   

       To reduce the rate of spread of disease in the population at large.
a1, Oct 16 2021
  

       Yet you are still a carrier after vaccination.   

       // but you are still a carrier after vaccination //   

       No, one is *potentially* a carrier, if they contract COVID after vaccination (or get infected again after having it, as could still happen to you - link). But breakthrough and repeat infections rates are much lower among the vaccinated, and community spread is less in areas with higher vaccination rates.
a1, Oct 16 2021
  

       Well soon there will be very 'very' few of us, not because the virus killed us but because capitulation is mandatory or else, and not one 'anti-vaxxer' will be spreading it around the planet on airliners so unless the virus remains on surfaces long enough to be transported some other way then you'll only have yourselves to blame.   

       Maybe then you will all snap out of your mass hysteria.   

       // Maybe then you’ll snap out of your mass hysteria //   

       Time will tell. Check back with me late next year on that.   

       A related curiosity, [2f] - and I’ll understand if you choose not to say or even completely ignore the question - is Mrs. 2f either vaccinated or recovered from COVID?
a1, Oct 16 2021
  

       //Time will tell. Check back with me late next year on that.//   

       Hey! I was going to say that!   

       Well, the way I look at it is that 'your' medical history has never been and is still none of my damned business, so the same holds true in reverse, but I will answer your question so you'll know where I am coming from.   

       My wife is debating getting vaccinated. We don't think she's had the virus because we had bought our new place and I lived alone here alone in my camper for that first winter when I got it.
She and I have however seen a few of these media-down-played side effects for ourselves like permanent double-vision and all-over body rashes, blood clots, our cleaning lady's neighbour had a stroke and such.
She is her own woman and would gladly tear-me-a-new-one if I tried to tell her what she should do.
She's like me but the feminine version. Not much of a childhood, abused, mother at seventeen, grew up quick.
She doesn't take any shit either... "especially" mine. (bless her)
  

       My children are adults and also make their own decisions. They hear my views but we taught them early that their decisions have consequences and that we love them without judgment.
So I have not asked my son if he is vaccinated, (like I said, he's a man now that's his business and he will tell me if he chooses to), and my daughter has had her first dose, (even though she has had the virus and built up her own antibodies), because she can't get a job if she doesn't get vaxxed and wants to make it on her own without relying on Mom and Dad.
  

       I'm not the bad guy you are fabricating in your head and I do not impose my will on others, (not that I couldn't)... and I also don't allow it in return.   

       ps   

       I felt it only right to show this anno to my wife before I posted it because it contains her personal information and she says;   

       "Well that's none of his fucking business."   

       What can I say. I knew she was for me the first moment I laid eyes on her.
We're soul mates.
  

       //Ah but you can't catch the same cold twice.//   

       Yeah, but no.
That is, it's true in the short term but not the long term.
  

       If you look closely at the quote you gave, you'll see they also imply this: "...This keeps you from catching it again /right away/. ..."   

       Or you could look at the literature. For example, from the abstract of "The time course of the immune response to experimental coronavirus infection of man", published 1990 and online 2009 (link). (this is only part of the abstract, but I've extended the quote to include a caveat it would be dishonest to exclude)
::In this group [definitely-infected individuals], antibody concentrations started to increase 1 week after inoculation and reached a maximum about 1 week later. Thereafter antibody titres slowly declined. Although concentrations were still slightly raised 1 year later, this did not always prevent reinfection when volunteers were then challenged with the homologous virus. However, the period of virus shedding was shorter than before and none developed a cold.""
  

       I've only read the abstract, so I'm trusting them on this, but I don't feel like there's any particular reason to be suspicious of this finding.   

       So after a year you can be reinfected with exactly the same strain of a cold virus - but if you are it doesn't seem to be as serious.   

       Unfortunately, longer-term studies are progressively harder to do, so there may not be many of them. However, another more recent paper investigated blood antibody data from healthy individuals covering 10 years didn't find long-term protection - it was titled "Seasonal coronavirus protective immunity is short-lasting". And at least one other study found similar, looking at RNA data to identify reinfections.   

       While we may /hope/ that some reduction in the seriousness of the infection would be retained, that isn't definitive, and I think it's clearly unlikely to improve without a fresh challenge. Given the greatly increasing lethality of Covid-19 with age, I'd say it was foolhardy to assume that reinfection after a few years would be milder.
Loris, Oct 16 2021
  

       None of that makes me think that it is less foolhardy to allow pharma companies to dictate mandates based on the previous definition of vaccine which didn't have the word immunity removed from it.   

       Take their boot off our throats... and we'll talk.   

       //Therefore I 'am' vaccinated and have actual immunity to the original virus unlike the folks coerced into taking 'shots' under the threat of unemployment and becoming outcast. I have arranged my life in such a way that these threats do not work on me and I will not be bullied into compliance by society ostracizing me.//   

       You don't mean you're vaccinated, you mean you have immunity due to previous infection. That may be a semantic issue, but I strongly feel that it is important that words have specific meanings, to avoid misunderstandings.
You keep saying that the vaccines don't confer immunity. This is wrong.
I'm also reasonably sure /I/ didn't threaten you.
  

       //If you have to be persuaded, reminded, pressured, lied to, incentivized, coerced, bullied, socially shamed, guilt tripped, threatened, punished and criminalized... If all of this is considered necessary to gain your compliance - you can be absolutely certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest.//   

       Of that list of words and phrases, some are innocuous (e.g. "persuaded", "reminded"), some are probably predominantly by other groups than those invested in vaccination (e.g. "lied to", "bullied"), and some shouldn't be happening, and probably arn't in any real way, over most of the world (e.g. "punished", "criminalized").   

       It seems like you might just be annoyed that there are certain rules recently or in the process of being introduced which would restrict what you can do as an unvaccinated individual.
I don't know what those are, so I've no idea how punitive that is.
Where I am - the UK, there are various rules, but there is typically an alternative way for unvaccinated individuals to qualify. For example, taking a (free, self-administered) lateral flow test within the 72 hours prior to an event.
I think there are plans to make vaccination mandatory for patient-facing health care workers and nursing-home staff. And honestly, I'm okay with that.
  

         

       //None of that makes me think that it is less foolhardy to allow pharma companies to dictate mandates based on the previous definition of vaccine which didn't have the word immunity removed from it.//   

       Um, what? I don't understand what you're getting at here.
Loris, Oct 17 2021
  

       //No they are being told//   

       I think you'll find that varies by jurisdiction. Some nations, and some states, are more dirigiste, others are more laissez-faire. Different places have different responses to the virus. That's because there is no global conspiracy.
pertinax, Oct 17 2021
  

       // 'your' medical history has never been and is still none of my damned business //   

       Well, thank you for being so forthcoming in spite of that. And in fairness I’ll share that I got my 3rd shot last week. I didn’t have any trouble getting scheduled for the booster - being an old fart with underlying medical conditions does have SOME perks.   

       In the more general sense, in many circumstances it’s very reasonable to inquire about others’ medical history. You can tell ‘em to feck off if you want, but don’t be surprised if they decide they don’t want you around.   

       // I’m not the bad guy you’re fabricating in your head //   

       I don’t think you’re a bad guy. But even the finest, best intentioned folks can make unwise choices. The kicker is that your choices can affect others, so sometimes they ARE other folks’ business - like it or not.
a1, Oct 17 2021
  

       Wow, okay, hold up a sec. geez.   

       // you mean you have immunity due to previous infection. That may be a semantic issue, but I strongly feel that it is important that words have specific meanings, to avoid misunderstandings. You keep saying that the vaccines don't confer immunity. This is wrong. I'm also reasonably sure /I/ didn't threaten you.//   

       Yes. I have immunity from a previous infection. Is that somehow less protection than these shots? If not. Where is the exception?
I didn't mean that /you/ threatened /me/. Humanity is being caged... it's got fuck all to do with me.
I keep saying... no keep asking, if not one single person taking these shots is completely immune to "the same cold twice" in a short period of time then how are the mandates themselves legal when they were based on the previous definition, and how have certain portions of the public been coerced into getting shots they either don't need because of natural antibodies or shouldn't accept because it poses a greater health risk than the virus?
  

       Because it's mandatory.
Get back in line citizen.
  

       //It seems like you might just be annoyed that there are certain rules recently or in the process of being introduced which would restrict what you can do as an unvaccinated individual.//   

       Nope. I'm looking at the bigger picture and not filtering out all of the stuff not only happening in my neck of the woods.
As I've said, I made sure to figure out how to remove myself from the shit I see coming. It's not going to be "only over there" for long.
  

       ////None of that makes me think that it is less foolhardy to allow pharma companies to dictate mandates based on the previous definition of vaccine which didn't have the word immunity removed from it.////   

       //Um, what? I don't understand what you're getting at here.//   

       The definition of the word 'vaccine' changed just prior to this pandemic by omitting the word immunity, and switching it to 'protection from', allowing pharma to assume through governments the power of mandates to save us all from something "we" didn't release and now need protection from.   

       You will take the required shot citizen... or you will be unemployable.   

       //I think you'll find that varies by jurisdiction. Some nations, and some states, are more dirigiste, others are more laissez-faire. Different places have different responses to the virus. That's because there is no global conspiracy.//   

       ...and yet the entire globe changed over night. Two weeks to flatten the curve remember? How long before that is no longer remembered? Humans are short lived critters.   

       //I don’t think you’re a bad guy. But even the finest, best intentioned folks can make unwise choices. The kicker is that your choices can affect others, so sometimes they ARE other folks’ business - like it or not.//   

       All I can say is... ditto.   

       Even if these world bankrupting choices are being made by the finest folks with the best of intentions then they can affect me, and those unwise choices ARE my business.   

       Like it or not.   

       A friendly reminder for all sports teams: hospitals are not a place to stage your games. Even in the richest countries hospitals are only places to die. If, for example, viral load is what makes Covid so dangerous, why in the double hockey sticks are the worst Covid cases jammed side-by-side into the same Covid hothouse of a room?
4and20, Oct 17 2021
  

       //Yes. I have immunity from a previous infection. Is that somehow less protection than these shots? If not. Where is the exception?//   

       The short answer is it may be, the long answer is we're not sure and it's complicated.
I found a BMJ article (link) which goes over this in some detail. One concern is, for example, that many people who think they've had covid actually haven't. These would be a pretty significant exception.
I think the general consensus is that having an actual covid infection gives about the same protection as vaccination. In much of the world, a proven infection (i.e. a lab-administered positive test) is considered sufficient, in at least the short term.
However, I think it's also generally considered that vaccination after infection will boost immunity and be beneficial, different countries have different processes in that regard.
  

         

       //I keep saying... no keep asking, if not one single person taking these shots is completely immune to "the same cold twice" in a short period of time then how are the mandates themselves legal when they were based on the previous definition, and how have certain portions of the public been coerced into getting shots they either don't need because of natural antibodies or shouldn't accept because it poses a greater health risk than the virus?//   

       You're making claims you can't support. How do you definitively know what the experts explicitly state there are uncertainties over?
And what is this coercion? Needing to be vaccinated before getting a job interacting with the most vulnerable to infection?
How dare they inconvenience someone who only wanted money and didn't care about their patients!
  

       //Because it's mandatory.//   

       Where? Not here. Not most of the world. Possibly not /any/ of the world.   

         

       //////None of that makes me think that it is less foolhardy to allow pharma companies to dictate mandates based on the previous definition of vaccine which didn't have the word immunity removed from it.//////   

       ////Um, what? I don't understand what you're getting at here.////   

       //The definition of the word 'vaccine' changed just prior to this pandemic by omitting the word immunity, and switching it to 'protection from', allowing pharma to assume through governments the power of mandates to save us all from something "we" didn't release and now need protection from.//   

       It seems like a wierd semantic argument over a definition change no-one in the field thinks is important enough to worry about (I don't even know where you're getting it from - googling suggests it was a dictionary definition, or perhaps a minor clarification by the CDC), and implying a vague malevolent intent by "pharma companies".
Repeatedly going on about this and disregarding all other evidence makes you look like a frothing conspiracy nut.
  

       ..   

       // If, for example, viral load is what makes Covid so dangerous, why in the double hockey sticks are the worst Covid cases jammed side-by-side into the same Covid hothouse of a room?//   

       Most places have limited resources to spend on medicine, so it makes sense to be efficient.
If the medical system is stretched to its limit, it's imperative.
Once someone is infected with a particular strain of virus, the vast majority of virons their cells are exposed to come from within their own body. A few more won't make any difference.
(I should say that cross-contamination could be important in evolution of the virus - if there were significantly different strains - recombination might be a problem, but this is essentially a rare event, and my guess would be that this is more likely to happen in multiply-infected individuals in the community.)
Loris, Oct 17 2021
  

       //You're making claims you can't support. How do you definitively know what the experts explicitly state there are uncertainties over?//   

       Common sense.
People who have already contracted the virus have developed their own antibodies and yet are still 'forced' to be vaccinated.
Younger people with kick ass immune systems are 'forced' to risk the side effects even though they could shrug off this virus.
People with underlying health conditions for whom the shots are almost guaranteed to be detrimental are forced to take it.
They are now mandating that all children over the age of five must be vaccinated to attend school.
etc.
etc.
  

       //And what is this coercion? Needing to be vaccinated before getting a job interacting with the most vulnerable to infection? How dare they inconvenience someone who only wanted money and didn't care about their patients!//   

       Last months heroes... this months unemployed.   

       //Because it's mandatory.//   

       Where? Not here. Not most of the world. Possibly not /any/ of the world. ////googling suggests it was a dictionary definition, or perhaps a minor clarification by the CDC), and implying a vague malevolent intent by "pharma companies". Repeatedly going on about this and disregarding all other evidence makes you look like a frothing conspiracy nut.//   

       Where?
Canada. Kind of hard to talk about anywhere else since all local news sources talk about nothing other than case counts, numbers of ICU patients and Covid deaths.
The constantly repeated phrase we hear is.
Think local, shop local, listen local... and be safe.
  

       This minor clarification of definition allows governments to assume the power of mandates and force citizens to take untested drugs even before those drugs had FDA approval.   

       No frothing... just conspiracy.   

       Take the vaccine or..
No restaurants.
No movies.
No gatherings.
No job.
  

       They did exactly what I said they would do, they loosened restrictions here just before Thanksgiving so that they could tell us all how badly we handled the opportunity we've been given to just be good little citizens so they have no choice but to impose harsher restrictions now...   

       ...for our own good.   

       No froth at all.   

       // Take the vaccine or.. No restaurants. No movies. No gatherings. No job. //   

       That would be great if it were true. But last time I checked (like, two minutes ago), it’s not 100% true anywhere in Canada. See link from Retail Council of Canada outlining which venues do and do not require proof of vaccination.   

       I don’t want to go to a restaurant, gym, hotel, etc… any place where people congregate indoors … if the owners can’t confirm for me that their entire staff is vaccinated. And that they’re limiting access to clientele who are likewise protected.   

       That’s because I’m cautious. Even being 3x vaccinated myself, I don’t trust that I’m completely immune, or that even someone who recovered from COVID is. This is all about risk management and each jab improves the odds.
a1, Oct 17 2021
  

       //Common sense.//   

       Ah, that. If only the experts with their years of study and work on the topic had your common sense.   

       After all, without common sense, people wouldn't know that trees are made of soil, the moon is shadowed by the earth on a monthly cycle, and it's best not to switch in the Monty Hall problem.   

         

         

       ////Where?////
//Canada. //
  

       //This minor clarification of definition allows governments to assume the power of mandates and force citizens to take untested drugs even before those drugs had FDA approval.//   

       So why do you even care about the FDA? Why don't you pay attention to Health Canada's HPFB?   

       From Heath Canada's website:   

       ::Regulating drugs and vaccines sold in Canada
Drugs, including vaccines, are regulated under the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations. They must meet the regulatory requirements for safety, efficacy and quality before they can be sold in Canada. Health Canada's regulatory process involves:
  

       authorizing the use of a product in a clinical trial
reviewing data and evidence to provide a product market authorization and
monitoring and assessing the safety and effectiveness of a product once it is on the Canadian market
We have authorized certain products to treat COVID-19 and its symptoms.
  

       On December 9, 2020, we authorized the first vaccine in Canada for the prevention of COVID-19.::   

       Clicking through to a new page, I'm told it has now authorised four Covid-19 vaccines - those from Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and Janssen (Johnson & Johnson).   

       So the vaccines have clearly been evaluated by your local health regulator, and the testing found to be good. The USA heath system is pretty FUBAR, and it's regulatory system is probably a bad role model to idolise.
Loris, Oct 17 2021
  

       //So why do you even care about the FDA? Why don't you pay attention to Health Canada's HPFB?//   

       Because the US is the big bad bully on the playground and Canada is its little buddy. Anything done by the big bad bully affects the little buddy.   

       It's not the drugs I have a problem with. Its the mandatory part.
You will not question. You will get back in line and take whatever we tell you to take citizen.
It's mandatory.
Think local, listen local, shop local and be safe.
  

       ps   

       Trees aren't made of soil.   

       //Trees aren't made of soil.//
OK, nutrients etc FROM soil, & water & atmosphere & sunshine & love... happy?
neutrinos_shadow, Oct 17 2021
  

       //ps
Trees aren't made of soil.//
  

       Yeeeeessssss.....
Loris, Oct 17 2021
  

       Ever since the 2016 South Korean political scandal which revealed that their president really was taking orders from a secret cult, my go-to explanation for confusing and divisive political events is "there appears to be a secret cult controlling events from behind the scenes". Fortunately for me, no one listens.
sninctown, Oct 17 2021
  

       Petition to rename this the Vaccine Debate Club and possibly move it to new category other:general:discussion
Voice, Oct 17 2021
  


 

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