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After perusing the internet for several decades...
...you people are the only one's worth your salt.
Anyone who's been here for any length of time is tolerant, thoughtful, and willing to at least explore the philosophies and knowledge of people and things you might not ever have been exposed to
before.
Can we all agree on this?
If so then many of you will not look down on me for not feeling the same way about other sites.
I spoke up, I got silenced. Yet I was not silenced here even though the rules are even more specific than sites I was silenced on due to my opinion of the mass enforced vaccinations.
So...
...where do people like me actually speak freely about things which aren't novel inventions, without violating rules, to those also capable of novel invention and thus the only one's worth talking to when it comes to changing things?
Novel invention is what is needed right now with minimal restrictions on discussion. We need to put aside past restrictions in order to forge something new.
One or more of you has the capability to create such a space.
That person isn't me as much as I wish it was.
Let me know where to sign up when it happens.
"A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift
https://en.wikipedi...i/A_Modest_Proposal
A fine example of the kind of thing that, I think, 2 fries is arguing for although its purpose is to argue against what 2 fries advocates. Can anyone spell 'irony'? [DrBob, Mar 22 2024]
Guardian article on the Satanic Temple
https://www.theguar...e-evangelical-right
Also relevant. [DrBob, Mar 22 2024]
Gab.com
https://gab.com/home
A free speech website. Some content is offensive. [sninctown, Apr 02 2024]
Web traffic estimator
https://ahrefs.com/traffic-checker
Their estimate is only from search [4and20, Apr 03 2024]
Traffic estimator #2
https://www.similarweb.com/
More optimistic or pessimistic depending on sanity checker [4and20, Apr 03 2024]
Other traffic info
https://moz.com/domain-analysis
[4and20, Apr 03 2024]
Dipshit secrets of our rotten world
https://theponzipap...of-our-rotten-world
A word of warning, sometimes paranoia and conspiracy theories can lead people into dark places. This guy styles himself as "an investigative researcher". Look after yourselves guys. [zen_tom, Apr 19 2024]
Is this how it feels to you?
https://www.gocomic...mcfadden/2024/04/30
When people on HB say this isn't the place for politics? [a1, Apr 30 2024]
Doc's "Halfbakery Field of Honor"
Halfbakery_20Field_20of_20Honor
[a1, May 03 2024]
Mentioned elsewhere
https://web.archive...com/group/overbaked
"This is what Overbaked was to be ... " [a1, May 04 2024]
Halfbakery Spell Checker
Halfbakery_20spell_20checker
By someone other than 2f... [a1, May 04 2024, last modified May 05 2024]
Bing Bang Theory .. Indiana Jones
https://youtu.be/RG...si=OH307gYtx5MQNtMR
He had no effect on the outcome of the movie. [Skewed, May 05 2024]
Another big bang theory.
https://www.wionews...-of-pandemic-718127
[doctorremulac3, May 06 2024]
Unfounded stereotypes
https://www.siasat....-to-end-it-2274114/
[doctorremulac3, May 07 2024]
As far as acceptance of homosexuality, ask them, not me.
https://www.anic.or...n-Homosexuality.pdf
[doctorremulac3, May 07 2024]
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021
https://www.legisla...sp/2021/14/contents
[calum, May 08 2024]
Calum breaks wonderful law
Littler_20England
Insults the English. Scottish prosecution to follow. [4and20, May 08 2024]
CPS Guidance (scroll down to the end for sentencing notes)
https://www.cps.gov...rosecution-guidance
[zen_tom, May 08 2024]
Child tips tran stripper
https://youtu.be/oGtseVUw-_M
4:25 [4and20, May 09 2024]
A Gen Xer who got $250,000 in student loans forgiven in Biden vote buying scam
https://www.busines...payment-genx-2024-4
...and start studying in India. Another great career decision that I've paid for. [doctorremulac3, May 09 2024]
Inflation rate under Orangemanbad vs Pedo Pete
https://www.google....MgB&sclient=gws-wiz
Better get those trans kidshow dancers into the news. [doctorremulac3, May 09 2024]
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If you want a website set up exactly how you want it, you need do it yourself. Saying you don't have skills, knowledge, time, money or time are all weak excuses. |
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[-] This not an invention. WIBNI "... someone set up a website for me like this one but without the rules I don't like." |
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Try Truth Social. Apparently you can paint your face orange & make up any old bollocks & people on there will give you their adoring attention. |
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Truth Social blocks VPNs. That's enough reason not to trust it. And I doubt I could say anything REALLY controversial there without being banned anyway. Same as here. If I were to, say, forward the idea of a beastiality cult in a serious manner I would be unwelcome in any site I know of. Or if I propose a return to nazism. Or if I advocate for pedophiles. I'm a free speech purist but there is nowhere on the internet which actually offers free speech. I believe this is by design. You can get silly but if you start attacking peoples deeply held beliefs and morals they'll attack you right back, and not with arguments. In many places it's actually forbidden by law to advance certain arguments. Try saying in North Korea that Dear Leader must die. |
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//if you start attacking peoples deeply held beliefs and morals they'll attack you right back// |
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That's probably more of a "people" problem than an "internet" problem. |
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I'm just tired of being where I can't talk freely. |
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I'm telling you right now, all societies can regulate things so that free speech does not exist and I will be the last hold out. |
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Y'all didn't silence me when everyone else did about this vaccine bullshit.
So it shows you've got some grit and... integrity. |
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That just needs to be extended to where a free-speech off-shoot of this site happens so that open minded individuals from disparate backgrounds can talk without being instantly cancelled by "people" problems. |
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I haven't met other humans on the internet willing to set aside cultural and educational backgrounds to discuss... whatever, other than here. |
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Yes [a1] it is unfortunately an WIBNI. |
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Just a sorely needed one, which I can't create by myself any more than I can hand form the plexi-glass hull for my pedal powered submarine idea. |
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As [pertinax] said. It's "people" problem. |
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...but can you admit that it is a problem needing to be solved quickly? |
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I for ten miss the ancient Usenets groups, though they probably still exist in even less moderated formats. |
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As this is not an idea & likely to be deleted at any moment I thought I'd enter into the spirit of the idea & post the following:-
//Novel invention is what is needed right now with minimal restrictions on discussion.//
//if you start attacking peoples deeply held beliefs and morals they'll attack you right back, and not [necessarily just]* with arguments//
*Apologies to Voice for amending his words somewhat.
I am not a fan of censorship generally (although I also believe that there are things that children should never be exposed to). One of it's many problems is that it forces people into opinion 'ghettoes', where they get into a feedback loop of positive re-inforcement from the like-minded, instead of exposing them to the opinions of the general population where their ludicrous, abhorrent or just plain silly opinions can be shown up for what they are or lauded to the skies for their genius. Becoming a social pariah is, I believe, a more effective deterrent (in this particular case) than any legal sanctions.
I agree with pertinax that we have a bit of a people problem and I think, before we can move forward socially & get away from much of the 'herd mentality' thinking that goes on, we need to have a bit of a revamp of the way that people are educated. Not to deny it's value but I believe we should have a bit less vocational stuff & a bit more philosophical & artistic stuff. It'll be a tough sell in the current environment!
Anyway, that's what I think! So there! And pooh to you with knobs on to anyone who disagrees! |
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// I can't create it by myself // |
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Will saying "I can't" often enough eventually make it easier for you? |
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I wasn't here when the "vaccine bullshit" occurred, but if something similar or identically far out happened on another topical subject now I think the same thing you call tolerance would occur. But I don't think it's tolerance; it's just off-topic. Is it an idea for a new vaccine? No. Is it a method for distributing or administering it? No. Is it a possible source for vaccines? No. Is it a proposed method to convince others not to take a vaccine? Maybe. And this, to me, is the only part of the idea worth discussing. The rest is opinion and prejudice. |
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// a bit more philosophical & artistic stuff.// The problem is all the philosophical stuff isn't "here's how to think and here are the ideas of the great philosophers". Instead it's "here's a race and sex who are evil. Hate them." And the art isn't "here are some beautiful things. Maybe we, too, can make beautiful things". It's "Here are some ugly things. If you don't admire them you just don't get it" Or in the case of literature, "Here are some books about how oppressed certain groups are and why a certain race and sex are evil". Even music has become "A certain race and sex made most of the music we know and admire. Let's ignore them and focus on less beautiful works made by more righteous individuals" |
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Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I don't see how telling half the human race, the half that does the great majority of the grunt work, that they're not helping is going to work out for the best in the long run. |
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The true cost of free speech is having to hear things you don't like |
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//You didn't silence me.// |
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Tried to. You just didn't take the hint. ;) |
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There are always private group chats on Redditt that you could create and invite people to. Is the Yahoo group still a thing or did Yahoo groups die off? Granted, they have rules too. The arm of the insurance underwriter snd the Congressional committee on social media is long. But that's for a reason that usually involves people getting fed whackjob ideas and then going haywire. |
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The internet needs a way to more strongly promote boring normality in all its mundane glory as its done a very good job of promoting the ill-conceived and attention-seeking sideshows. |
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Old-school: Start a group email if you really want. |
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Anyway, I'm quite certain that jutta didn't want the Halfbakery to become the last haven for loons to discuss their beefs with the tendencies of societies and governments in the day of internet connectedness to reject what they find objectionable. |
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I wish I could help. Designated free speech websites exist but tend to focus on the stuff that's banned on other websites, making them morally hazardous and borderline unusable. |
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//Will saying "I can't" often enough eventually make it easier for you?// |
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Maybe. You don't know... I am far too busy applying the skills I possess to learn the ones I do not yet know.
Someday is coming. |
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//Is it an idea for a new vaccine? No. Is it a method for distributing or administering it? No. Is it a possible source for vaccines? No. Is it a proposed method to convince others not to take a vaccine? Maybe. And this, to me, is the only part of the idea worth discussing. The rest is opinion and prejudice.// |
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It's about not being silenced just because one's opinion grates.
How many of you are glad that your jobs were held ransom without compliance to the jabs? |
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//The true cost of free speech is having to hear things you don't like.// |
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Exactly. You want tolerance?...
...then tolerate. My views on what was going down with the plandemic and the non-vaccines was not inaccurate. It was simply not narrative friendly, and anyone with a similar view to mine was silenced, degraded, fired, and vilified for more than two years by people so unwaveringly sure of themselves that they'd rather continue the narrative than admit that they got duped and accept it.
The con never stopped once it started. It only changed folks.
...but we're not allowed to speak about that anywhere across all of social media because?... |
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Why? Who has deep enough pockets to engineer that kind of hate and ostracism across talking-monkey societies overnight? |
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//Anyway, I'm quite certain that jutta didn't want the Halfbakery to become the last haven for loons to discuss their beefs with the tendencies of societies and governments in the day of internet connectedness to reject what they find objectionable.// |
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I just meant an off-shoot.
I don't want to convince complete strangers of my opinions, I wish to discuss those opinions with people who's opinions I already respect without instant dismissal.
I've interacted with all of you for more than twenty years now. I'm no loon but I have been forced to live my life by wit and intuition alone and am correct about the plandemic as well as the narrative. |
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I'm just not allowed to talk about those things. |
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Me too!
Look at how much we already have in common. |
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A few years ago I saw a group of protestors at the Twitter headquarters, asking for more censorship. It was a weekend so no staff were there. The protesters were yelling at the sign. I don't think anything changed as a result. |
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Start a blog or a subreddit and rattle on to your heart's content. You can say what you want, but I suspect that's not what you are looking for. |
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//I've interacted with all of you for more than twenty years now. I'm no loon but I have been forced to live my life by wit and intuition alone and am correct about the plandemic as well as the narrative.// |
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See, that's just the thing. No. You're fucking not correct. And nobody wants to repeat that conversation, except you. |
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We'll see.
I am sure enough of my gut feelings on this to have quite literally bet my life on it by refusing to comply to the jab mandates.
The class action law suits from the wrongfully dismissed and silenced doctors and nurses have begun. |
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[2f]. I share [RS]'s opinion on a lot of your beliefs - including the one that anyone besides you would like a "halfbakery without rules." Apart from the rank and file, even [jutta] has stepped in a few times to ask you take your non-invention discussions elsewhere. |
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If we start shunning the eccentrics, we'll be left with only the centrics, who can't fit on that small dot all at once. |
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Dress up your eccentricities as a new idea and nobody will complain. Well - somebody might point out prior art or that your idea is unworkable ... but that's what we're here for. Whinging, not so much. |
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Got a bun for ya 2 fries, I like your posts. Okay to bend the rules a little now and then. |
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//[2f]. I share [RS]'s opinion on a lot of your beliefs - including the one that anyone besides you would like a "halfbakery without rules." Apart from the rank and file, even [jutta] has stepped in a few times to ask you take your non-invention discussions elsewhere.// |
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Doesn't surprise me, and I didn't request halfbakery without rules, just a dedicated meeting room for halfbakers to discuss overflow conversations without graffiti to the site itself. |
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I grow tired of censorship. |
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I'm sure that you two do not speak for everybody.
Neither of you certainly speak for me. |
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So... why should I care what you think of my postings?
Are you now the thought police? |
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How about no?
How about that? |
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//I didn't request halfbakery without rules, just a dedicated meeting room for halfbakers to discuss overflow conversations without graffiti to the site itself// - and there's absolutely no reason why you can't just set up your own chat forum somewhere. Buying a domain and website hosting is easy and there are free tools for setting up a chat forum. If you're keen to have a place for uncensored conversations on any topic, why haven't you already done this? |
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Further to that, if you don't want to host it yourself - you can create a 'server' (actually a chat forum) on discord, apparently for free. |
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// I'm sure that you two do not speak for everybody. |
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For sure they speak for me. And you are a fucking loon. |
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// If you're keen to have a place for uncensored conversations on any topic, why haven't you already done this? |
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I don't think that's what he wants, honestly. I think he wants a place where he can spout his incessant nonsense without challenge, ideally with like-minded nonsense spouters. He's looking for fans. |
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// I'm sure that you two do not speak for everybody. // |
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I don't. And the only one whose opinion matters on what belongs on the Halfbakery is [jutta]. Ask her. |
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Did you just assume my gender?! Oh the outrage! |
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//For sure they speak for me. And you are a fucking loon.// |
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I'm sure they speak for the 90%, as that's how many of you were coerced into conformity by the narrative, but they don't speak for everybody and as I said before, if I'm a loon then humanity is in far worse shape than even I supposed.
I don't want fans. I barely want acquaintances. I do however want free speech.
That is something which was very nearly taken from us during this plandemic shit-show and the amount of animosity and ostracism I've had to put up with for sticking to my guns had made me a pariah and I pretty much gave up on most of society, but I have higher hopes for this crowd. |
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Maybe I will start my own site.
Maybe I should call it onlyhaters. |
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// Did you just assume my gender?! Oh the outrage! // |
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I don't know if you directed that to me or someone else. The only gender specific pronoun I've used today referred to [jutta]. |
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If we restrict ourselves to this "plandemic" narrative, any number of renowned people are agreeing about the misguided dangers of anti-Covid measures, though without mentioning some nefarious plan. RFK, Jr., despite being an improvement on memory AIDs Joe and the Orange Tang, is the heroin in his own story. |
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I just saw a report that more than a million excess deaths have occurred in seniors since Covid spikes abated. But I'd really have to check their numbers... |
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//And you are a fucking loon.// |
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This is the reason that the HB is a shadow of its former self. We used to have hundreds of visitors, now we have a couple of dozen at best. It really has become a very hate filled place. |
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Maybe we should change the name to the Trumphatery and say some final words. |
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//I don't know if you directed that to me or someone else.// |
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No your anno just beat mine to the punch.
I take it you are an early riser? |
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I might be if I slept on a regular schedule. |
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// We used to have hundreds of visitors, now we have a couple of dozen at best. // |
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Well, one traffic estimator says we have 36K a month, dropping 25% a month. A different estimator says 1.7k a month. |
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It appears that a lot of visitors find one page in a search engine, then leave in terror. This may be because the top landing pages are: |
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sex stopwatch
strip uno rules
anal tattoos
liquid meat
quicksand vortex |
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[4and20] - interesting! Can you share where you got that data? |
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//It appears that a lot of visitors find one page in a search engine, then leave in terror. This may be because the top landing pages are:// |
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Given that list, I suspect that rather, they're leaving disappointed - when they don't find pictures.
This suggests that if the goal was chasing pageviews, reinstating the halfbakery illustration scheme would be appropriate.
But again, given that list, I think I can say I'm okay with that not being the case. |
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Thanks for the links, [2 dozen] |
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I feel like an alien who just dropped into a silent poker club and everyone takes a turn grabbing someone's something. (or another). |
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Actually when I communicate with the peeps I know who have left, almost to a person they left because they grew tired or uninspired by the change to frequent let's alls, politics, and rantings and had other better things to move on to. Which is why I bone nearly every thin rant I see. |
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It occurs to me that most of the ranting on the net originates with Yanks. People blame the technology, but Yanks have had a lot to rant about and came very late to doing so. |
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(Hmm. Should I rant about that rant about yanks ranting? Naa.) |
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Wow! Looks like you've managed to get this one fully baked by just putting it out here.
Congratulations are in order.
Having said that, here comes the caveat:
The true cost of free speech is having to hear things you don't like....(to quote Calum above).
And yet, having mentioned the caveat, it still seems like a good idea, as the antithesis of the caveat is that the true benefit of free speech
is (occasionally) hearing things you really need to hear.Like said quote, for instance. Ironically. |
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Freedom of speech is a constant fight. |
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It either exists...
...or you are people that those of us in the business of ensuring freedom of speech call...
...wrong. |
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As you will all soon see. |
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Anybody want to bet that I am wrong?.. |
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Freedom of speech doesn't really exist in a last supposed bastion, the U.S. Even when speech was free, anyone could neverthelessl be fired for their politics, except, recently, gay people. |
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Not here. Not on my watch.
You are allowed to say anything you want about me or to me, and then I get to do the same.
You need not listen to what I have to say and I need not listen to what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it to the death and if you are not willing to do the same for mine... |
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...then you do not deserve the right to be heard as you do not defend it. |
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Or do you?
I don't mean to be all 'in-your-face' but I get the feeling that it is quickly approaching a crunch where it might be better if you'd considered these things and made personal decisions as to your stance before the crunch arrives. |
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Just a friendly heads-up. |
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I like you people, and it's okay if you don't like me. I'll get over it, but mark my words. |
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Attribute my words to whatever tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy-theory anti-vax big-foot believing thing you want to name me. |
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...but you mark those words nonetheless you third-eye-blind motherfuckers. |
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Mark them well. You'll see. |
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I wish there was some way I could shelter you all from seeing for yourselves. You'd all have to spontaneously jump onto my page and that's not going to happen so there is very little I can do to avert what's coming but I am just one man. |
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As long as people are willing to be led...
...the leaders will subjugate. |
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Play that scenario through enough times in your mind and you can see the only out. |
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How many of you have played it out even once? |
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Yet 'I' am to be subject to 'your' dictates?
'Your' mandates?... |
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Yeah... I don't think so. |
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I find it interesting that some of the "mentally ill" have systematically been ranting about the same thing. The dismissal usually goes something like "So intelligent, but..." |
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But people who were paranoid in the 1950s and 60s had every reason to be. We have to admit that the pressure for social conformity abated quite a bit. Maybe that's why it's coming back. The real problem of "the system" to my mind is that Anglo-Saxons organized society for quite a long time. |
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But as the saying goes, I can't see any reason to let dictators to live rent free in my head. If you're not engaged politically with other people to change things, you're just another victim shouting on the freeway. |
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There's a distinct difference between free speech and wild speech.
Some of us, (including myself, too much of the time) think free speech means complete and utter liberty to spout whatever is on their tongues before even pausing for a second or two to filter it through the mind, or even the heart. That's not free speech, that's wild speech, which can lead to getting horribly lost in one's own wilderness. But it all boils down to freedom of choice, which is everyone's right. Yet all choices have consequences, and there's the rub. |
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// How many of you have played it out even once? // I'm pretty sure one or two of us have lived in genuine dictatorships and can see how the winds blow. Those who think the danger has a name starting with T are not among them. |
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//choices (have) consequences// Most people who say that are calling for specific consequences for specific choices. Don't be disingenuous, make your request explicit. |
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Ok, I'll be specifique, because I'm wearing my poet's beret tonight and I fancy myself French.
But here it is.
You can say, either out loud, or even just in your mind, or in your heart, that there is no God, and the consequence of that, is that you'll live in a Godless world, in a Godless universe, and to me, that's an awful, hopeless consequence.
Now if that ain't free speech, I dunno what is. After all, no-one's paying me! |
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Freedom of speech doesn't really exist on a privately run online message board. |
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Does a bear listening to the sound of a tree falling in a forest when no-one's around really exist? Or was it only the tree that existed - until it fell? |
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Only if the bear is protestant. |
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If Milli Vanilli fall over in a forest does someone else make a sound?
And [marked-for-deletion] WIBNI, rant |
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I have lived in the hometown of a long reigning notorious dictator. Long after the dictator is dead, his idiot victims still worship his memory. His acolytye leads the country now, and made a law that anyone "proven" to get someone sick during Covid would get 8 years in prison. His name doesn't start with T. That's a different dictator. Not the one in Canada. |
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// I'm pretty sure one or two of us have lived in genuine dictatorships and can see how the winds blow. Those who think the danger has a name starting with T are not among them.// |
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Some of us can see the winds effects before it blows.
Names starting with T are just symptoms and not a root cause. |
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The root cause is what I am after. |
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Those assholes need to attain a bit of humility methinks. |
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And what if the root cause is you? |
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//And what if the root cause is you?// |
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If the root cause of societies problems is someone who didn't even finish high school then you're all fucked. |
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My attitude may however be the cure. I have not, and will not put up with the purposeful dismantling of western society. |
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I am not alone, and anyone thinking to enforce Sharia law here will find out very quickly just how many guns Canadians have and how good we are at hitting targets from a distance. |
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Nobody is cutting the clits off of our daughters.
Nobody is making our women subservient.
Nobody will force our boys to worship a pedophile prophet in a death cult. |
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Anybody wanting to play nice can stay.
Anybody wanting to brainwash people can take a long naked walk into a blizzard. |
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If you will willingly throw a homosexual person from a roof, or stone them to death and then sleep soundly that night... |
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...then you are evil and need to reconsider your affiliations before you are eradicated by those with actual grit. |
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I'm not entirely atheist because I think that there is a creator... |
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...you fuckers telling me what that creator thinks, need to back the fuck off or find out exactly what that creator thinks about your assumptions, you arrogant pieces of shit. |
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How much time have you got? |
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2 fries, I feel a huge sadness when I read what you write about plandemics, vaccines, Islam and so on, especially when I compare it with what you used to bring to the halfbakery. I see so much less delight, so much less joy in your contributions these days. I worry about you. I want you to be happy, to have comfort in your life (something which I know from your posting history has been in short supply). Maybe you *are* happy - I have only my interpretations of your writings here to inform my conclusions. If you are, I am glad. But, still, I miss the fun of the 2 fries from before. |
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What [calum] said, AND what [hippo] said. |
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// The root cause is what I am after. // |
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"Because shock tactics rely on the public becoming disoriented by fast-moving events, they tend to backfire most spectacularly in places where there is a strong collective memory of previous instances when fear and trauma were exploited to undermine democracy. Those memories serve as a kind of shock absorber, providing populations with shared reference points that allow them to name what's happening and fight back." -- Naomi Klein |
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I just know the covid virus didn't come from a lab, follow the science. |
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1- No way can a pangolin have sex with a bat if there are lab coats in the vicinity. Lab coats are a turn-off for pangolins. Ask yourself: "Could I get it up if everybody was watching me with a clipboard in their hand while wearing lab coats?" Follow the science. |
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2- Bats likewise aren't in the mood when there's people watching. Follow the science. |
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2.5- The CCP doesn't lie about stuff, name one lie they've ever told. They've clearly told us the truth about where this beautiful natural virus came from. |
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1- An American biowarfare lab |
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3- The wet market a short drive from the totally not-where-the-virus came-from-lab (explain how somebody who works at a lab could possibly go to a wet market where everybody's crowded together face to face and spread it after catching it from the lab with documented horrible safety protocol. How they gonna get from the lab to a place 12 miles away? Take a flying saucer? It's just not possible. Follow the science.) |
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4- Bigfoot farts. (not sure about that last one) |
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5- There is no such thing as gain of function research, this has never been done, and never will be done because of like... pangolins and stuff. Follow the science. |
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Anyway can everybody stop ganging up on 2fries? It's okay to be sceptical about stuff. It's also REALLY okay to have differrent opinions. |
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And no, don't care to further discuss the subjects here. My labcoat-turning-pangolins-off theory is my final say on this. Follow the science. |
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// can everybody stop ganging up on 2fries? |
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You miss the point, doctor, he *likes* this shit, it's the whole reason he posts threads like this. It reaffirms his specialness. As I stated before, he doesn't actually want what he's proposing here (if you remember it started with an idea), he actually wants these opportunities for his inner evil magic pixie to fly its flag. How else can he show he's different? He has to be able to demonstrate that he just *knows* stuff. After all he's just a typical high school dropout otherwise. |
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I'd say a better way of putting it is, would everybody stop giving him what he wants? |
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//he's just a typical high school dropout otherwise// |
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Boy, that's a lot of hate you got going there. So if that's the case why "give him what he wants"? |
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Some thought does have to be given to the fact that nobody comes here anymore because of such insults. I personally just use the HB as a notepad myself these days. I've turned off the "giving a shit" button. |
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Nobody comes here because they got bored with it, and it's not about quality ideas anymore. I got that straight out of nobody's mouth. Everybody's had a chip on their shoulder for some time now, just ask Everybody. |
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Dunno, I just proposed printing an alien's probing finger on products that go in the butt. Maybe not as clever as the theory of relativity but close enough. |
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At least you're back to butt jokes instead of talking about cremains. Was getting worried about you. Feeling better now? |
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//I miss the fun of the 2 fries from before.// |
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My mind used to fire off ideas almost faster than I could write them down.
Funny how years of persecution for daring to stand up for the rights of the persecutors will do that to a guy.
Any of you who have read my words over the years know that I make no bones about having been surrounded by and raised by mentally ill people. I escaped it. I made my own life and determined my own meaning of what it is to be a good man. Raising children taught me that things didn't need to be the way they were while I became that man.
I was happy.
I am fiercely protective of that happiness and it relies on not being surrounded by mentally ill people wrongly insisting that I am their problem.
Societies reaction to anyone unwilling to comply with what they deemed to be in the best interests of the majority let those of us actually refusing to comply see just how easily they are swayed by rhetoric and let me see just how fragile my hard earned happiness is. |
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Anyone seeking to take it has been fairly warned. |
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As for religion, anyone who would take away the rights of others in the name of God and feel no guilt about it because it says you can in some book...
...is evil.
I was lucky enough to have had my mind kept un-brainwashed and I get to look at all religions from the outside. |
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They are, every one of them, willfull collective insanity. If a man needs some book to tell them what constitutes morality and what it means to be a 'good man', then... well then they aren't much of a man now are they?
But to blindly follow the words of a book, not even written by the one being blindly followed, who took a bride at six years of age and waged wars on others and says it's okay to stone people to death for non compliance is... |
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...Somebody help me out here, what's the proper word for such things? |
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[tatterdemalion]
You have no idea just how fringe I am. I'm just a special little attention seeking snowflake who sees things in his head which then happen.
I share those things and get shit on by people who can't see their own insanity because they are immersed in it. |
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It only takes one psychiatrist to change a light bulb, but the light bulb has to really want to change first. |
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It wouldn't work, much of what makes the HB what it is and continue to work past the point other sites might crumble is the rules and quirky structure imposed by it's stated original purpose, take them away and all you've got is an ordinary noticeboard / chat group that I suspect might crumble fast without the imposed padding of it's existing structure and rules keeping our digs and jabs (relatively, for a given value of relatively) 'civilised' |
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And forcing one to find entertaining ways to circumvent said rules of course, being amused by someones artistry at that can distract from the bruise oner just got and gives one a reason to keep coming back ;p |
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But I feel what you're saying, it still wouldn't work though I think, probably ;) |
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//Is the Yahoo group still a thing or did Yahoo groups die off?// |
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All gone [Ray], Yahoo Chat and Yahoo Groups have all been discontinued now, Groups lasted a bit longer than the chat and there was a few years I think were you could still get into the old ones you were already a member of but couldn't set up new ones but they've fully closed them now I read. |
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I could still access one of the old Paleo groups by typing an old URL (that was on an old printout I had knocking around somewhere) for one of the threads into the address bar directly a few years ago (could only read not write to it as I'd ditched the Yahoo email I used for it already and there were no new posts for a couple of years or more even back then when last I looked) but I doubt even that works any more. |
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Video may have failed to (as claimed) kill the radio star but social media it seems has succeeded with its own precursor where video failed, the chat rooms are nearly all gone, for all practical purposes, all that's left are a few outliers, the exceptions that prove the rule. |
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Or else I'm just not looking hard enough, that's always possible. |
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Just had a look at Yahoo. |
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There's nothing at all left now. |
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Yahoo Answers has gone as well (not that that's a great loss, that one of their services was always crap) all it seems that is left of what it was is news, a search engine no one uses and providing email, which means it has nothing. |
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Chat and Groups were the only things it had going for it that were worth anything to me and that I think might (if they'd kept them) still have a place in the market. |
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And those two were the first things they dumped. |
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i think reddit is your best bet for running your own low effort kingdom. |
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I was just hoping for a separate hb chatroom where those of us willing to express... whatever, could. That shit could be flung and rationally discussed without smearing the overall canvas. |
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//a separate hb chatroom where those of us who willing to express... whatever. That shit could be flung//[+] |
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You know what I meant. Things are going to hell in a hand basket but nobody is allowed to discuss it without getting cancel-cultured. |
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Let me ask you all;
What would happen to me if I went to a middle-eastern country and started a Death-To-Islam chant and collected followers? |
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Yet the reverse is to be tolerated/encouraged everywhere else? |
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How many governing pockets got lined for that to be happening?
Why is it tolerated here? Because of freedom of speech, right? |
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Well where did 'my' freedom of speech go? |
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Just ask yourselves that question. |
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// Yet the reverse is to be tolerated/encouraged everywhere else? // Is it? I've not spotted anything like that in my daily comings or goings. |
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//How many governing pockets got lined for that to be happening?
Why is it tolerated here? Because of freedom of speech, right?// |
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I don't think any government folks are super-keen on encouraging anti-government activity - see the recent crack-down on pro-Palestinian demonstrations currently. People protesting against the government, doing what you're talking about, are being marched off to prison. So to say it's being tolerated isn't true. At least not in the most obvious instance that matches most closely with your example. |
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Your freedom never went anywhere, you can still say what you like. |
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Just that everyone else has got the freedom to make up their own minds in terms of how they react and how much credence they apply to what they hear from you, or anyone else. |
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In that respect, every conversation has rules, at the very least, agreed conventions that people apply when they decide whether to participate or not. Some conversations have more active policing schemes, and there's usually some balance between these two methods of formalising some set of behaviours and conventions that a forum will operate under, ideally to optimise the number of people who will be willing to participate, if at the marginal expense of excluding some topics or behaviours. |
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See link "Is this how it feels to you?" |
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Not to dismiss valid concerns about oppression, but there's no equivalence between a real or metaphorical boot on your neck ... and having a system operator and/or a portion of the membership of a small, non-political online forum telling you to take your politics and protests elsewhere. THIS forum is meant for discussion of halfbaked inventions. |
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Good political cartoon though. |
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I've found that ideas themselves do not differentiate between physical or ideological. And, for me, since one form of expression seems to have switched off with the advent of the covid narrative, the other seems to be expanding at a rate I have no idea if I can control. |
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Fasten your seat-belts passengers. It's gonna be a bumpy ride. |
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Fun cartoon, [a1], thank you. Yeah, that's an example of fun these days. |
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What [zen_tom], [calum] and [RayfordSteele (April 1 and 4)] said. [2 fries] - if you want a site where you can say whatever you want about conspiracy theories, go and create one. It's really not hard. |
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Well... I guess I haven't spent decades with them the way I have here with all of you and don't give even half a shit as to what the public at large has to think about what I have to say. |
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I care about what the people who've known me for decades have to say about what I care to comment on. |
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...and my gut tells me that the right ears will be reached here, not out there.
No other site is like this one. Nobody who stayed posting here for any length of time stumbled in by accident.
The people who inhabit this site come from completely separate backgrounds and the only thing holding them together is a love of innovation.
There needs to be a way to allow that free-flow of information and mental capacity to continue to attract newcomers while those entrenched can discuss the actual shit going down. |
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Or rather, I can do it, if I'm given several years off my self imposed sentence but that seems unlikely. |
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I honestly don't mean to smear, but what now constitutes real life across the globe is seriously messing with my zen and... |
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...I don't really have other acquaintances smart enough to discuss these things with.
That's why I stumbled in and stayed. |
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So, it's back to being a wibni. |
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// ... I haven't spent decades with them the way I have here with all of you and don't give even half a shit as to what the public at large has to think about what I have to say. I care about what the people who've known me for decades have to say about what I care to comment on. // |
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Contradicted by you ignoring all of us here who say we don't want your political screeds on HB, and refusing all suggestions and offers of help to set up your own forum elsewhere. |
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Prove you care and delete this non-invention. The people who care will be happy to visit your subreddit. |
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Why are you be so obsessed with silencing people by having them delete their posts here? And you're the one to talk about political screeds. How many Trump posts have you put up here? |
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2, you got some bones and some buns. Not everybody has this weird obsession with silencing you. Leave this up. If somebody doesn't like it they can bone it, put up their contrary views or ignore it and move on. They don't have to post on it every friggin' day, basically setting up camp and living here. |
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And the idea is for a website that's similar to the HB but with some modifications so the WIBNI doesn't apply. WIBNI would be something like "Let's all start being nice to each other." |
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I have no interest in silencing anyone. [2 fries] wants to use HB to post whatever he wants, w/o regard for HB's stated intent and guidelines. The majority of responses (not just mine) have been against it, while suggesting and even offering to help him set up a forum somewhere else that he can run as he pleases. |
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You: //I have no interest in silencing anyone.// |
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Also you: //delete this non-invention// |
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He was very clear. "One or more of you has the capability to create such a space. Let me know where to sign up when it happens." Before saying this is not an idea, note the category: "Halfbakery: other sites" |
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That means it's a proposal to create another site. You can tell by the message hidden in the category specification: "other sites". |
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You're so excited to be in a group ganging up on somebody you can't even see what his idea was. |
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//You: //I have no interest in silencing anyone.//
//Also you: //delete this non-invention// //
Those two things are not inconsistent. It is possible to argue for someone to be free to say exactly what they want while also arguing that this website was not built with the purpose of enabling anyone to say exactly what they want. |
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Pick on me all you like, but have the honesty to count the votes as well as comments from everyone else that's for or against THIS idea, who else called for deletion, and the general sentiment towards posting non-inventions on HB generally. |
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Edit to add - I did it for ya... |
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Defended this idea: [2 fries], [doc], [Edie] |
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Opposed but did not EXPLCITLY ask to delete it [RayfordSteele], [tatterdemalion] |
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Asked for deletion: [a1], [hippo] |
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Did I miscount, misinterpret, or overlook anyone? |
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Hippo, again, this is an idea to have an HB clone where people ARE free to say anything they like. |
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The idea that doesn't exist that you're arguing against is this: "Change the rules for the Halfbakery." |
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Even that might be acceptable, I wouldn't care one way or the other, but that's not what this is. |
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One thing that IS fully okay is to talk about stuff un-related to the posted invention or concept which is what's happening here. |
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This is not the patent office, it's a social site. What I take umbrage with is people wanting to take other's ideas down for dumb reasons. Somebody posts "Kill All Puppies" fine, MFD, but this MFD obsession due to political or sociological differences is annoying. Also this dumb gamesmanship of "Ohhh! I found a flaw with your idea! You need to take this down! I win!" Ugh. So proud to have never MFDd anything ever. |
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With all due respect, I think [hippo] is only a demigod (demigoddess?) here. The real power is [jutta] - ask her. |
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And hippo, as far as the debate here about COVID, I'm clear on 2's view on the subject, but I have no idea what the contrary views are, just a bunch of random insults and anger. |
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Was COVID a natural event that the world science community gloriously took care of or did the world science community cause this with gain of function research that went awry or was it something else? I don't even know where many of the posters stand on this, it's just been a bunch of ad hominem stuff against the poster, or worse yet, calls for the discussion to be terminated. |
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And the downside to this simplified polarization of a complex issue is that we don't discuss the possible threat of future gain of function disasters, something that I hope NOBODY thinks isn't a potential problem to be discussed and mitigated if possible. |
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Anyway, not interested in repeating my stance, I've already said that science has proven that pangolins can't get a boner for bats when lab coats are present scientifically disproving the lab leak theory with the scienciest scientific sciencification ever, so I don't need to repeat myself. |
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Love it, 5 buns, 5 bones. That's how a good society functions, variety of opinions in a free market of ideas subject to free and open debate. Love the HB again. |
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"What [zen_tom], [calum] and [RayfordSteele (April 1 and 4)] said. [2 fries] - if you want a site where you can say whatever you want about conspiracy theories, go and create one. It's really not hard."
—
hippo, May 01 2024
Always what Hippo said. It's the only word I still believe in. |
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Frisco, My cat died, after 14 years a few weeks ago. He died at home. He received the best Hospice care possible. He never had any pain. He died from inner torment and fear of rats. So bringing up rat's asses...
I couldn't give a rat's ass about what any of you think anymore. It is nothing more than the "The Truth is Right" or something like that which has already been done on TV.
Two non-accepting males insisting upon being "right". Just like kindergartenten. |
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And speaking of Kindergarten, My best friend since 4th
grade died last Saturday. Her beautiful 24-year-old daughter had to give her CPR. It was unexpected and a shock to all. She died Saturday morning, and there was a voice message on my phone from Friday night. There was nothing on it.I missed her last words to me and I'll never know what she wanted to say. |
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But I'll feel it always, and then always again. Oh yippee, another "Zoom " service. Fake smiles with no hugs is getting old. |
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Okay, return to your childish bleh-blob. Just listen to Hippo and you will end on the right side. Becky Jones, and Frisco Jones, one vote for each of you, and as always, I'm with Hippo. |
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Sorry to hear about your friend Bliss. |
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// Opposed but did not EXPLCITLY ask to delete it [RayfordSteele], [tatterdemalion] |
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Let me correct that right away - [marked-for-deletion] nonsense rant |
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Condolences Bliss, very sorry about your friend. |
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I'm sorry to hear you lost someone [Bliss] |
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//It is possible to argue for someone to be free to say exactly what they want while also arguing that this website was not built with the purpose of enabling anyone to say exactly what they want.// |
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This website was not the same when I stumbled on it. |
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I posted Halfbakery Top Tens; and then people started posting their own favorite ideas on their home pages.
I posted Halfbakery Spring Cleaning so that people could clean up their own broken links; and it happened.
I posted Halfbakery Spell Checker so I didn't need to write everything in a Word document before copy/pasting here so I didn't look like an illiterate moron; and it happened.
I broke the site by accident once trying an ascii art thing one time and now the 30 character maximum rule exists. |
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This just seemed like the next logical extension. When tensions get high there is a side room to take shit to where we still know we are all talking with the same people. |
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The rest of the internet doesn't know me.
You people know me. |
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Thanks [bliss], always so good to see you here! You always make me smile. I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your cat and your friend - losing a childhood friend is horrible. Best wishes x |
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2 fries, I had put up a not well received idea to have basically a HB fight club where HBers could go slug it out, a field of honor thing. |
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Can't find it, was a long time ago. Don't feel like looking for it. |
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Actually it looks like it did okay, 6 to 3 bun to bone ratio. It was more bones that buns last time I checked all those years ago. Nice to see it went up. |
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//I posted Halfbakery Spell Checker so I didn't need to write everything in a Word document before copy/pasting here so I didn't look like an illiterate moron; and it happened// - did the Halfbakery implement a sophisticated spell checker at about the same time all the other websites you accessed through the same browser software also implemented sophisticated spell checkers? |
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I have no idea if it was simply coincidence, I just know that I thought it was a good idea so I posted it and then it became reality. |
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// I posted Halfbakery Spell Checker ... and it happened // |
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When was that? Before March 2006 (link)? |
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As [hippo] mentioned - HB doesn't a spell-checker built-in, but many web browsers and plugins provide that feature to any text editing field. You didn't create it, you weren't the first to think of it, and your wishing for it had nothing to do with it coming into existence. |
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I don't know what year I posted it. Several of my postings have been deleted or were lost in the 04 crash.
That has little to do with the site having changed over time or this posting being tagged a non-idea. |
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I think it is a very good idea, but maybe just a bit ahead of its time.
Like me. |
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You'd have loved my Dinosaur Extinction Theory that was deleted as being a theory rather than an idea. |
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// I have a theory that the asteroid, which caused the mass dinosaur extinction, hit the Earth at a tangent opposite to its spin, slowing the rotational speed of the planet down, and caused all them big critters to drop where they stood. // |
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Even with individual site failures, a lot is still recoverable. But I can't find your original HB spell checker idea. Still, I'm sure you did think at some time "would be nice if HB had a spell checker." And even though I didn't find it in a quick skim of archive.org, maybe you did post it. |
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That's relevant to how HB has changed over time... but only in this way: HB *doesn't* have a spell checker, and you didn't influence the course of events either way. |
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As for being ahead of your time, that dinosaur thing was your first MFD all the way back in 2003 and you groused about it even back then. Look how far you've come! |
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//you didn't influence the course of events either way// |
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So what you're saying is [2 fries] is Indiana Jones? [linky] ;) |
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//you didn't influence the course of events either way.// |
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You can edit your own dead links without needing a moderator can't you? So if this is a non-idea then so was that. I see you took the time to verify my comments and chose to focus entirely on the discrepancy.
You're a pretty negative dude. |
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Not sure what you mean about editing a dead link. I retrieved that remark from your user profile in archive.org, but couldn't find the original idea posting. A lot does get archived, but not everything. |
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As for being negative - so much of what you say sounds like nonsense and self-delusion. If you think I'm being negative for pointing that out, okay... but at least I'm more polite about it than many others. I like you and a lot of what you post - I just think you need to switch to a strain with less THC. And maybe consider micro-dosing your triptamines every other day instead of dropping a whole tab every night. |
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[bliss] So sorry for your losses. When my cat had to be put down due to serious ill health, I asked the vet to put me down with him. I was broken hearted, to a greater degree than even when my mum and dad died. I have also lost close friends of many years. I don't deal with loss very well. I find running, making the art work I do and teaching the most amazing students at Art College is a "place of refuge". I also have two new cats. (belonging to my neighbour but they prefer to live with me now that she has two dogs) I dread to think how I'll be when they go. Maybe I'll go before them for a change. |
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//Not sure what you mean about editing a dead link.// |
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I mean that that you obviously checked if everything else I said besides HB spell-checker was true or not, and that halfbakery spring cleaning led to a users ability to edit their own links on their own profile pages which stemmed from my suggestion. Not a biggie, but I take credit for the notion if not its implementation, that was all [Jutta] and the mods. |
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If this suggestion that the halfbakery could use another addition is a non-idea then so was the posting which actually caused change.
That's all. |
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//As for being negative - so much of what you say sounds like nonsense and self-delusion. If you think I'm being negative for pointing that out, okay... but at least I'm more polite about it than many others. I like you and a lot of what you post - I just think you need to switch to a strain with less THC. And maybe consider micro-dosing your triptamines every other day instead of dropping a whole tab every night.// |
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Well I think you need to listen more and attack less. |
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All of western society is currently under attack from multiple angles and speaking about it, or trying to push for a space where such a thing is possible is met with... "I just think you need to switch to a strain with less THC. And maybe consider micro-dosing your triptamines every other day instead of dropping a whole tab every night" by you, and you think that that is a valid argument against speaking up? |
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Well,.. I think that you are one of those folks I like to call Mass-debators. You enjoy arguing... and I dig that, but...
You like to make others feel small to compensate for lacking something I haven't quite put my finger on yet.
I'm getting the impression that it might be an inability to actually physically fix broken things, and being able to think outside of the bag the box came in for yourself. |
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Nobody wants to talk about the current shit going down but it needs to be done. I can think of no better individuals to have said conversation with then you all. |
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Getting ridiculed for suggesting such a thing I need about the same way I need a third testicle. |
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So where do you stand [a1]? |
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When you make remarks that are hard to believe - and some that are clearly ridiculous - you should expect to get fact checked and sometimes ridiculed. |
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As a stand alone comment I would find that hard, nay, impossible to challenge ^ |
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Besides, I've always considered UFO 'enthusiasts' to share quite a bit with flat earthers, creationists and moon landing conspiracists* so any mention of things along those lines does detract from the seriousness I can oten give comments that slide into that territory whether I otherwise agree with them or not ;) |
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* Particularly after I spent some time in Marconis on site library leafing through old issues of Jane's defence magazine .. far too many old previously classified or semi-classified (ie merely industrial design secrets) drone and craft designs from the 80s that only saw print in the 90s bore striking resemblance to earlier news articles on UFO sightings from the 80s, taking UFO nuts seriously after that became a bit difficult. |
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[Add in the light speed issue and any who think aliens regularly visit us are clearly just nuts ;) particularly if they think there are multiple species doing it] |
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The stealth bomber is only the most well known example. |
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Remember all those reports of wedge shaped UFOs? I do. |
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Sure - sometimes disbelief and ridicule are misplaced. But [2f] has a pretty unfavorable nonsense to reality ratio. |
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//pretty unfavorable .. ratio// |
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Well, it's not all that bad, most of the time, it fluctuates, much like my grumpiness. |
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Besides, he was the first to address me in this space which gives him nostalgia points to counter occasional disagreement .. //Whoa! <pulls up a stump and gets comfy>// helped hook me and informed expectations of the general tone of what was coming when [Max] and others chimed in ;) |
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With surprising accuracy (so far as general impressions can be considered to have accuracy) as it happens. |
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I'll concede all of that - but in line with what [calum] said, he's gotten less inventive and less fun as time goes by. |
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//he was the first to address me in this space which gives him nostalgia points// |
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So maybe defend him when somebody's trying to get everyone to gang up on him. He's just getting hit with insult after insult after insult. Really disgusting. |
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As have I and I suspect so have we all [a1]. |
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On what topic [doc]? he's right on free speech being under threat and this is a nice idea that I think might not work, I wouldn't know about the spell checker thing but the retort that its probably the browser and he's Indiana Jones sounds plausible ;) and though I've come out against re the apparent UFO rant I'm never sure if he's LARPing as a UFO chaser in an effort to distract us all from the current spat or means it. |
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Would you have me say a thing is good I dinna believe is? |
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The only real effect of those nostalgia points is I never find myself feeling 'fed up' and irritated toward him (to date) as I might on occasion towards one or two others. |
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Plus I tapped out of too careful reading of all annos (particularly anything between the lines) somewhat after saying my piece a little while back .. I'm in the middle of a cooldown period, so I may have missed some of what you're referencing, my eyes may even have been auto-skipping anything that might offend. |
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Not talking about his posts or your responses to them, talking about the insults a1's throwing at him. |
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Agreed. I have genius relatives (though not as bright as 2fries) who have more seemingly outlandish ideas. One relative banged on and on about the Fed and bank conspiracies until (wouldn't you know it?) the 2008 crash happened. |
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Even when they're wrong, they're still marshalling a great deal of valuable information, even if it shouldn't necessarily be connected. |
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Yeah, I think the fed probably fell into the same category as "it may have come from a lab in China" .. e.g. a not unreasonable hypothesis given the circumstances that got denigrated as conspiracy for some weird tangentially attached political reason or other, probably quite a lot of people with an understanding of the banking industry who knew what subprime was and how it had been bundled into other instruments saw it all coming as an inevitability with only the exact timing uncertain .. so, not really something that needed genius to see, just someone with the right information who wasn't being proactively dumb? |
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4and20, exactly, and it's okay to be wrong. |
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For instance I was wrong once. Thought I was wrong about something but I wasn't. <--- (hilarious hijinks) |
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// Not talking about his posts or your responses to them, talking about the insults a1's throwing at him. // |
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Ha. Compared to RayfordSteel and tatterdemalion and maybe some others - I've been very kind here. No profanity, no anger - just references to the guidelines and some (relatively) gentle mockery. |
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None of those guys were doing the let’s all gang up thing. |
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Nah, you're giving me too much credit there. I'm sure everyone trading insults with him - or even offering polite criticism of his idea - is doing so of their own accord. |
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[a1], are you talking about Jesus and his Honda car? |
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Jesus drives a Toyota! He works at the Toyota research facility in Newport Beach and wouldn't consider driving any other brand. |
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I'm certain you are correct, and I'm a Toyota man myself, with both my wife and I driving 2005 Camrys. |
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But biblical Jesus drove a Honda, but didn't talk about it. |
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"For I did not speak of my own Accord" - John 12:49 |
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I fuck off for a few days and this is the shit which floats to the surface while I can't be arsed?
Allrighty then. |
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How do you like your cultures now becoming Islamic? How do you like your cultures becoming uneducated in favour of woke-ness?
How much do you like Diversity/Equity/Inclusion? |
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Let's hear your bullshit. |
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Tell me how my gut feelings have been wrong my educated contemporaries. ... and then explain why I should listen. |
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//How do you like your cultures now becoming Islamic?// |
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Let's be perfectly honest here, this isn't happening. Perhaps, given the shrinking of the world due to progress and technology, we all get to experience cultures from further afield than we might have expected to 50 or so years ago, but our culture can only be described as "becoming Islamic" if you exclude all the evidence of day-to-day life, and adopt a massive amount of alarmist bias in your point of view. I have neighbours who are Muslims, and other neighbours who aren't, and we all take each other's Amazon deliveries when we're not in, we all stop to have a chat over the fence when we're in the garden, and we all complain to one another about the prices going up - there's no "Islamification" going on, just normal people, getting on with their normal day-to-day lives. |
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//How do you like your cultures becoming uneducated in favour of woke-ness?// |
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Again, in terms of actual impacts that a normal person might experience day-to-day, I'm not aware of anything like this going on. What do we mean by "uneducated" here? To be honest, I don't really understand where anyone is coming from on this non-point. In terms of "uneducation", funding of further education here in the UK has fallen off a cliff, and recent incompetence by populist administrations hasn't helped solved that very real problem. In comparison, a made-up problem, like "wokeness" only serves to distract from real, actual, material, solvable issues. |
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Pretend problems can't help anyone, but they do hinder finding solutions to real problems because you have to wade through all this conspiracy BS after it's been amplified and turned into a story by people who'd rather govern over people who believe in ghosts, because solving made-up-stories only requires more story-telling, rather than any kind of competence. |
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//How much do you like Diversity/Equity/Inclusion?// You know what, I'm all for it. I never enjoyed being singled out when joining a new team/company/workforce, and sometimes, where toxic management were able to, they made some workshops really difficult places for someone who felt different to spend their working life. |
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[2fries] you tells us how different you are, and (rightly) expressing regret at not having been given the chances that you might have hoped for. That's what diversity/equity and inclusion is all about, righting exactly those kinds of wrongs, and working towards a world where people who are different aren't made to feel excluded. I can't see how you wouldn't want to make the world a better place on that front, considering the hard time you had of it. |
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Maybe you think "well I had it tough, so everyone else should too", and there's always a thread of personal responsibility that we have to lay at people's doors to look after themselves to some extent - you can't hand out happiness on a platter, but you can give everyone the same chance to work towards it. Just seems like common sense. Again, maybe some far-right propaganda has blown some local nonsense out of all sensible proportion, and ended up getting attributed to some global cabal of ghostly manipulators, but more likely, was just some fuck-up that was blown out of proportion. |
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//How do you like your cultures now becoming Islamic?// |
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//Let's be perfectly honest here, this isn't happening.// |
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"British birth rate is 1.4 per woman. Muslims are 6.5% of the UK population with a birth rate of 3.4 per Muslim woman. It is important to note that the proportion of the overall population who identified as “Muslim” increased from 4.9% (2.7 million) in 2011 to 6.5% (3.9 million) in 2021." |
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One study on the subject: |
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Three scenarios are considered: the zero-migration scenario where the authors assume that the Muslim population has a higher fertility (one child more per woman, on average) than other Europeans, mirroring a global pattern; a 2017 migration scenario: to the Muslim population obtained in the zero-migration scenario, the authors add a continuous flow of migrants every year based on year 2017; the mid-point migration scenario is obtained by averaging the data of the two previous scenarios. Findings - Among three scenarios, the most likely mid-point migration scenario identifies 13 countries where the Muslim population will be majority between years 2085 and 2215: Cyprus (in year 2085), Sweden (2125), France (2135), Greece (2135), Belgium (2140), Bulgaria (2140), Italy (2175), Luxembourg (2175), the UK (2180), Slovenia (2190), Switzerland (2195), Ireland (2200) and Lithuania (2215). The 17 remaining countries will never reach majority in the next 200 years." |
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If you're fine with that, okay, but might wanna see how well women's and gay's rights do in majority Muslim countries. And forget about being Jewish. Or else. |
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I mean, if you celebrate that, fine, but don't say it's not happening. |
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//4.9% to 6.5%// OK, so minimally then, I thought we were talking about something earth-shatteringly important!! |
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OK, so if you want to be picky. There is a small growth of a particular minority. |
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That's still very different to "your cultures now becoming Islamic". |
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And these silly extrapolations to between years 2085 and 2215? Well done for finding someone obsessed enough to project that far into the future for a niche scenario. Proves the point. Nothing to be alarmed by, clearly. |
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Gay and womens rights weren't great in the west 50 years go, if we're projecting towards 2085 maybe we should give a bit of leeway there as-well? If you want to adopt that stereotype, sure, but it wouldn't go down all that well with the Muslims who come to my pub. (The point here being that cultural adoption is by no means one-way - to imagine so would be to stoop to childish levels of over simplification) |
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I suppose what I'm saying, is maybe we don't have to agree with all the alarmist bs without thinking a little bit about it first? |
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I'll concede the following edit: |
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//Let's be perfectly honest here, this isn't happening// |
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//Let's be perfectly honest here, this isn't happening to any extent that anyone could possibly be alarmed by (at least not for another 50 to 100 years)// |
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Except for future women, gays or Jews. |
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But who cares about them right? My little world is my little world, future generations can go fuck themselves. |
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Run up the debt, feed the military industrial complex, continue the debt slavery of the masses and change the demographic to a more compliant population. Ohh look! Flying saucers!!! |
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I think you missed my main point. But carry on being racist if you prefer. |
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Islam isn't a race. Ironically, saying it is is incredibly racist. "Oh, you're a adherent to Islam? You must be brown." |
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Zen: "Uh oh, I'm losing a debate, better throw out a ad hominem slur and run away. |
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//Run up the debt, feed the military industrial complex, continue the debt slavery of the masses and change the demographic to a more compliant population. Ohh look! Flying saucers!!!// |
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What's this got to do with the last couple of points? It's difficult to have to keep explaining simple points over and over again, and then get a big diversion onto something totally unrelated. |
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We've identified that we might have to wait 100 years for your pretend scenario to potentially happen, due to "a study", the numbers of which don't even state their margin of error. |
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We identified that our own culture has progressed a long way in the last 50 years (and therefore by extrapolation, other cultures can too) and we identified that integrated cultures integrate and change even more so (the Muslims and Gays and Jews at my local pub all seem to get on just fine, and guess who else? God forbid, The Women!!), therefore further undermining the pretend scenario you're putting up as a straw man. |
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Then when called out on your clinging to your unfounded stereotypes, and how ridiculous they are, you drop in a big dollop of spam to divert the conversation onto some new bollocks. |
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Seriously now, are you being serious? |
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I can see why your culture is on the way out. |
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Okay [dr], but do you have anything real with which to address his point about your argument? How about, "what I'm saying is (short paragraph emphasizing the salient point you're making) |
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One main weakness our shared culture has, as stated here and elsewhere, is that so many people these days don't process rational argument, instead being groomed, or manipulated by emotional non-arguments. One can see evidence for this here on this page, if you're willing to. |
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Voice, with great specificity, what do you disagree with? |
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Zen said there's a demographic trend but it's not indicative of the future for some reason, it's in 100 years so that doesn't count or something. Then went into tantrum mode and made some generic statement about how smart he is and how dumb I am so that debate's over. |
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So what did I say with regard to debt slavery, demographic manipulation, never ending wars etc that you disagree with? |
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Be specific, say: "There is no military industrial complex." or something then say why. |
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Be quick though, gotta run here, coffee cup's almost empty and got a busy day ahead. |
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Okay, gotta run. As always, thank you for the debate and stay free. |
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At the risk of either being interpreted as using too long words, or worse, going into "tantrum mode", I'll try continuing the debate in the spirit of mutual understanding, after all, [dr] I thought you were all about having free speech and debates and all, but it's not that I don't necessarily disagree with that bit about //industrial complex// or anything, but that it was confusing that you so suddenly changed the topic of the conversation. To put it another way, more simply, It's not that it's wrong in of itself, it's that it doesn't appear to link to what we seemed to be talking about. |
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The reason why 100 years seemed pertinent is that we were talking about how "alarming" a given scenario (Islamification of our culture) might be. I said it really wasn't happening, you said it was and gave numbers. I pointed out that those numbers indicated that it was happening very slowly, and hence probably, on balance wouldn't be that alarming. You suggested that Islam is something to fear if you're female, Jewish or gay, and I pointed out that cultures of all kinds change, and gave examples of aspects of culture that are in the process of changing to back up that point. |
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If you got upset by that exchange, then next time, do just take it more slowly. If you value debate, then it helps not to fly off the rails like that. And, it helps to try and understand what it is the other person is trying to say - I wasn't trying to be "smart", but when you ignore the same points, made over and over, it's hard to find new ways of saying the same thing. |
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Rational debate is about making a point, and then backing it up with arguments and evidence that supports your position. |
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I hope we do stay free, but I do worry sometimes. |
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So? It's called changing the subject. |
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Tell you what, if you're gonna be the arbiter of free speech, give me a list of the rules. Be specific, keep it simple and dumb so even I can understand it. I'll start you off: |
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1- Don't bring up different subjects. |
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Okay, that's rule one, you finish the list for me. And please, keep it simple or I'll get confused. Use crayons or sock puppet characters if necessary. |
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Anyway, gotta go but Zen, i might disagree with you on lots of things but I’m heartened that you too wish to stay free. That’s the core tenet of my philosophy and if it’s yours too, although we might disagree on how to achieve that, at least we envision the same goal. |
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It's something I thought I'd never say, but Doc appears to be wrong, based on recent UK politics. The most recent Muslim leader of Scotland was somehow behind a dictorial new hate speech law protecting anything transgender, which even J.K. Rowling objected to. He's gone now. He lasted roughly a year as Scottish leader, for, among other things, pushing an insane hate speech law. |
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As I understood it [4and20] that insane law was already pushed by his predecessor? |
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So, by the party rather than by him? (naturally the party leader has to be seen to support enough of what most of the party supports or he (or she) won't stay 'leader' for long) .. I also get the impression that a lot of the madder stuff the SNP have pushed through as law may be coming from the rabidly nutty Greens they had to buddy up to so they had the majority to form a solid government? .. not that they probably aren''t mad enough all on their own of course. |
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//The most recent Muslim leader of Scotland was somehow behind a dictorial new hate speech law protecting anything transgender.// |
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And outlawing saying anything critical of Islam. Read the law. |
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And it's not a caliphate yet. Yet. When it is, ask gays how well they're doing. But ask them before they get thrown off a roof. (link) |
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Pretty sure "hate crime" laws will be modified as necessary. |
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Now might a kinder gentler view of gays evolve in the future? Perhaps. The Christian church has certainly seen some progress in that direction, but in the mean time, gays ain't doing so great under Sharia law. |
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Wanna worship however you wanna worship? Great, just leave the non-compliants alone. |
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xen, I just read your comment We are related, I knew it. We must be. The deeper sorrow at Frisco's death than mom/dad, most friends, all dogs, and he was almost feral. |
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But when he graced me with his belly available on the bed in the cold of winter, it would make me cry about all the pain he was carrying when I rescued him and I guess around 4 years ago he started letting me brush and pat him. Never a lap sitter, and couldn't carry him ever. But when he was dying, and laid down and looked me straight in the eyes for at least 3 minutes, no looking away once, I knew he was my lesson from the Divine Creator. "keep loving the hard ones. They might not ever get a second chance, like you did". And so I did. |
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To the others who offered their condolences, thank you, thank you so much. Maybe people do listen to each other on here, occasionally. And just like zen, I paint every damn day and I got a replacement cat already, and he's just not the same. But It keeps me from falling into the deep dark hole to nowhere. Thanks for being my pretend son, my real daughters left me and replacements do soften the edge. You know... |
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//The most recent Muslim leader of Scotland//
You mean, First Minister of Scotland, who is a Muslim? |
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// dictorial new hate speech law protecting anything transgender//
Incorrect. The text of the legislation is freely available and sufficiently short and clear that you can read it and understand that this is not what the legislation does. |
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What is harder to understand, perhaps, is that mainstream political attitudes in Scotland do (and have since about 1960) tend towards the egalitarian and in any event further left than in England and certainly further left than they do in the US. Also hard to understand from a remove is the long and depressing tail of religious bigotry and sectarianism which still exists in Scotland, and which was and is the primary motivation for this legislation (and this tail sits ill with Scotland's self-reported Jock Tamson-ism). The inclusion of specific protection for transgender people is entirely in line with the egalitarian approach and was not meaningfully controversial within Scotland. Transgender people are as worthy of protection from hate as the elderly, or Catholics, or gay people, or the disabled. |
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There are arguments that the structure of the legislation is not great (though these are not concerns which are specific to the inclusion of transgender people within its remit). Scotland has a long and shitty history of nebulous crimes (e.g. "breach of the peace") and this legislation may prove to be no exception. However, almost all the debate about this has centred on the inclusion of trans people. This is telling. |
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//which even J.K. Rowling objected to//
The implication here is that JK Rowling is some passive bleeding heart on the subject of trans rights. Based on her tenacity when it comes to posting on twitter re trans rights ("large gametes" etc), I would be more comfortable sayings she is entering her Scott Adams phase. Even Elon Musk is trying to get her to post less monomaniacally. |
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//He lasted roughly a year as Scottish leader, for, among other things, pushing an insane hate speech law.//
Mostly because he when broke the electoral pact with the Greens over decarbonisation commitments and without the Greens to back him, his lack of parliamentary majority did him in. The hate crime bill passed by 82 votes to 32. The hate crime legislation is not why he has gone. |
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Calum said: "blah blah blah" |
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Calum buddy, I thought you were a barrister. Did you see where an "insulting" comment about a long list of butthurt unicorns can get you between 1 and 7 years in prison? Maybe that's what J.K. Rowling and others objected to. Would I be held liable if I visited Scotland? If so, I've been there, and won't miss the sheep shaggers turned anti-moralists. |
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I have never been religious and never will be. I can see how that might be a problem if a society became religious in the traditional sense. But I'd still find it strange if, like Gibbon, we blamed Christianity for the fall of the Roman empire instead of Caligula. |
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I find it crazy that one moment I'm disagreeing vehemently with 4and20 then other times, like now, find myself yelling at the top of my lungs: "SAY IT BROTHER!!" (Quietly in my head of course.) |
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I'd like to propose a test: what statements here, on the beloved Halfbakery, would result in prison time in Scotland? Because that sort of puts some perspective on this doesn't it? |
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//a long list of butthurt unicorns//
The list, for reference, is age, disability, race, colour, nationality, ethnic or national origins, religion (or perceived religious affiliation), sexual orientation, transgender identity, variations in sexual characteristics. |
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Yeah, a bit of misinformation going around here, clearly. |
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The Hate Crime law doesn't do or say anything that didn't already exist elsewhere, just tweaked the categories for what qualifies under the law to include age, and a new definition for transgender. |
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Under that law, an assault on someone with a protected characteristic becomes "aggravated" and is considered more serious as a consequence. |
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Then there's crimes of racially aggravated harassment and stirring up of racial hatred. Neither of which I expect anyone is immediately planning on committing right now. |
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The test for the offence remains the same as it is under the (English/British?) Public Order Act 1986, so that for a stirring up racial hatred offence to be committed, a person must behave in a manner that: |
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i) - a reasonable person would consider to be threatening, abusive or insulting, or communicates to another person material that a reasonable person would consider to be threatening, abusive or insulting, *and*
either–
ia) in doing so, the person intends to stir up hatred against a group of persons based on the group being defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origins, or
ib) a reasonable person would consider the behaviour or the communication of the material to be likely to result in hatred being stirred up against such a group.
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So it's certainly not the "anti-freedom-of-speech" type of thing it's being painted as here, that would be disingenuous at best. And most of it was already entrenched in 40+ years of accepted British law. |
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Someone mentioned J.K. Rowling who pretended to flaunt the law by continuing to say the usually relatively low-key things about transgender people that she normally says, and was found to be perfectly in her rights to do so. |
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To put it another way, to fall foul of the law, you have to both insult/threaten or abuse someone, with the intention to stir up hatred against a group of people, or in a way that a reasonable person would consider likely to result in hatred being stirred up against a group of people. |
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Those definitions already existed under the 1986 act, it's just that they can now be considered "aggravated" if linked to a group considered as having a protected characteristic - so despite all the right-wing hot air, there's not much new here to get het up about. |
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//I'd like to propose a test: what statements here, on the beloved Halfbakery, would result in prison time in Scotland? Because that sort of puts some perspective on this doesn't it?// |
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Any statement that would put you in prison post Scotland would have put you in prison after 1986 in the rest of Britain. Since none of us (as far as I'm aware) could be considered by a reasonable person to be seeking to bring about the racial harassment or are an incitement of racial hatred mentioned in those laws, I think you, and pretty much everyone else here is quite safe. |
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// Calum buddy, I thought you were a barrister. Did you see where an "insulting" comment about a long list of butthurt unicorns can get you between 1 and 7 years in prison? Maybe that's what J.K. Rowling and others objected to. Would I be held liable if I visited Scotland? If so, I've been there, and won't miss the sheep shaggers turned anti-moralists.// |
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That's a very passionate response, and if it were true about getting 1-7 years for insulting someone, I can imagine how one would arrive at that level of excitement. Sadly though, it's based on a deeply flawed understanding of the law. But should anything ever come close to being passed like that, sure that would be really problematic. Thankfully, freedom prevails once again, despite the far-right trolls who continue to deliberately spread misinformation at the soonest opportunity. |
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In the UK, a "reasonable person" is never a reasonable person. It is government overreach. |
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Maybe, it'd be interesting to see the list of people found guilty under the 1986 law, and this extended version. There should be some records, facts, that we could look into, all criminal trials are recorded for posterity so it should be publically available information. |
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I'm not currently aware of any miscarriages of justice along these kinds of lines, would be interesting to look into the facts to see if there were any maybe? |
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Interesting but irrelevant. Did you look at the Scottish law? Took me less than a minute to find the 1-7 year prison term for, among other things, "insults". |
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I think you must have misread it, post a link, the law I read (and quoted from in my anno before (links in the links section)) fairly clearly stipulates that the insult or threat must also be intended, or reasonably interpreted to intend to incite hatred against a group of people. That's quite a big difference from (for example) calling someone a "silly billy"? |
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Whatever. It's still a matter of interpretation, and cruel and unusual punishment should never be on the books. Why am I not shocked that it started in England first? |
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//Whatever// Ha, funny isn't it how the truth is so less exciting than all the made-up nonsense! If only there were a way to look up and find out about publically available facts? |
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These laws are fascist and un-necessary. We already have laws against engaging in a conspiracy to commit a crime. |
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In a free country it's okay to say "I hate the Foozies people! They suck!" |
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Then, being a free country, the Foozies respond: (because it's a free country) "No, actually you suck." |
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This has the bonus of the people who are Fooziephobes being exposed, and that's a good thing. |
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But if the anti Foozie in a free country says "I'm going to attack Foozies." you GET FUCKING WARRANT! and investigate him. Then, whether he's just some loser or a serious threat, you tell him "We need to know if you're actually planning on hurting people and because of what you've been saying we need to assume that's a possibility so we got a warrant to watch you. You hurt a Foozie we're gonna hurt you. And if we find out you've got actual plans THEN you're going to prison." |
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Or you could enact facist laws that aren't gonna deter anybody who's actually got plans to do somebody harm. |
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Best part is the dumb premise of "If we outlaw hate, people will start loving each other." That's not how love and hate works. |
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This is just 1984 mind control garbage. |
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// reasonably interpreted to intend to incite hatred against a group of people. // |
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This is Zen's idea of an impossibly high threshhold of proof. But then, he finds strange things amusing. |
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I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just pointing out the material differences between what you said it was, and what it actually is. |
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It doesn't really do or say anything extra that the 1986 Act didn't already do or say. |
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You can argue against that all you like, just try and do it in a factual, rational way, rather than get triggered by recent right-wing misinformation. |
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If you really don't like a 42 year old bunch of English law, that's fine by me, strange that you'd pick up on it, or be so obsessed by it right now though, given that nobody you can mention has been affected by it, or that you're not 100% clear on what it is or where it came from. It's almost as though you've picked up on a recent talking point from...where I wonder? Are you a legal geek, who's just into this kind of thing? |
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One reason things like this are important is that people like [2fries] get snowballed in to all this freely bounced around, manufactured misinformation that's there to trigger an emotional response. That guy I posted a link to, the one who set himself on fire the other week, he didn't know how to process all this misinformation either. |
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It's hard enough trying to make sense of the world without badly researched crap getting thrown out into what should be a "good faith" type of debating environment. In good faith, we'd all like the same thing - it's just we have to wade through all this misinformation to get there. |
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2fries is in Canada and, strange to say, even though Trudeau is Quebecois, they're also intent on fascist British law. You are by no means unique in being a Brit who pooh-poohs every overreach, but don't lie about it and don't complain when it comes for you. |
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Like I said, I'm not here to defend British law, just to correct the recent far-right talking points that seek to drive us more quickly to the kinds of fascist outcomes we'd all, if we stop and think about it, like to avoid. |
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The recent British Government has been a disaster in terms of flouting its own and international law. But I'd rather we stick to having governments that stick to the rule of (often imperfect) law than the more recent, populist shift towards governments that are less constrained by any specific inconveniences the law might provide. |
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The authoritarian far-right are actively seeking to achieve that end, and it's from those kinds of sources that these sorts of stories emerge, pretending that x-is-y and whipping up emotion to put the kinds of authoritarians into power that would very quickly result in (and in some parts of the world, have very much already resulted in) some egregious and possibly irreversible overreach by state machinery. |
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If you agree with me (and I hope you do) that people should be free, then the continued erosion of rationality and public institutions by the authoritarian right through these kinds of misinformation tactics needs to be checked whenever and wherever possible. |
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Any government, left or right, can put people in prison with that law's wording, with very little difficulty. I hope for your sake you agree. |
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Point is, law is murky, and often based on precedent. So, if for 42 years, the law has said X, and for 42 years, it's been interpreted as X, then to suddenly reinterpret it as Y would be, assuming we've not yet sacked or re-appointed the judiciary, a tall order. Given that the new law doesn't say anything materially new around the point at hand, then there's at least 42 years of precedent to fall back on. |
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Like I said, I'm not here to defend a generation of British law, just trying to maintain some factual basis for discussion. |
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The Scottish and English laws do not appear exactly the same to me. I'll leave it to someone who cares about Scottish law to say whether they follow English precedent. Or if the English even do so. But thanks for another reason not to visit England. |
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Are we pretending there is no authoritarian left in the West? Very well, carry on. |
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If you mean the Thatcher government of 1986 who crafted the wording that [420] suddenly has taken a disliking to, I don't think they qualify. |
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That's just it, there is no organised Authoritarian Left. There are fringes of progressives who dye their hair and get the occasional racy tattoo, but they have no funded media outlets, they are nowhere in government, their only amplification across funded media is by the far-right who deliberately pick up on the craziest most loony types to construct pre-existing narratives to further enrage normal people who get sucked into this kind of thing. |
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Yes, there are some liberal leaning outlets who still try to promote balance and truth - but they get branded as "far-left" these days. Yes perhaps there is the occasional amateur level biased outlet who too easily panders to the left-wing talking points, but they're so painful and cringeworthy to watch they don't seem to get much airtime. |
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Fox got fined 800 million dollars last year to settle a case where they'd been caught spreading false right-wing conspiracy theories...and they're still in business! How much must that business be worth? And why is it that their perspectives so slavishly follow the fortunes of the Republicans in the US and their international friends and allies? Injecting right wing talking points into the public awareness is a literal *Industry* in a way that no left-wing equivalent exists. |
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Can anyone think of an equivalent business, that takes in that much income, who works on the left, actively promoting false stories in the face of facts and counter evidence? |
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Has any left-wing media outlet (assuming there are any) been fined or proven to be spouting lies and misinformation in the way that has been proven on the scale evidenced by the right? |
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Serious, questions - not trying to be an arsehole*, just presenting a rational, evidence based perspective. |
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*that comes naturally (budum-tish!) |
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[zen] I disagree with the premise of your questions. As such I don't think we'll be able to have a productive argument. |
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There are no left wing media outfits and if there where they would not lie? |
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I gotta say, in a weird way part of me is kind of envious. |
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Not interested in your envy [doc] - some examples or evidence to support your (implied) position would be courteous though. |
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You clearly don't understand what I just said. |
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As for your last request, what's in it for me? |
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Debate, curiosity, freedom, truth, integrity, decency? |
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Nope, but if you value those things yourself, one would imagine taking things seriously, rather than coming at this kind of thing like it's a sports-game, if you've got a team, and you want to support them, fine, but don't pretend you're interested in "debate", if you're not interested in backing up your arguments. If you're on the Red team, come what may, whatever they might do, or say, that's cool. Just be open about it. |
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I'm an interested outsider, I don't get all the shows you might be surrounded by. I just get the real-world reporting about media-linked court cases (Alex Jones, Fox), sackings (Tucker Carlson), prison sentences (Roger Stone, Steve Bannon), and it seems pretty singular in terms of who's on the side of freedom, and who's looking to buy and corrupt the media wherever possible. |
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If I'm wrong, I'm interested and curious enough to find out why. If you can't or don't have the information to help show me why I'm wrong, I don't expect you to "switch teams", but as we continue this "debate", it is interesting how one sided it's looking, at least from an impartial, outsider's perspective. |
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Okay, that was a bit harsh. I'll try to be nice in the face of a fussillade of puerile insults but no guarantees. |
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What did I say that's incorrect? Be specific. I know since you're a devoted member of a group you assume everybody else is, but I think for myself. Right or wrong, I arrive at my own conclusions like a big boy. |
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So when you're trying to criticize me, don't just list a bunch of names your brain farmers have declared enemies of the hive mind assuming I blindly follow them like you follow your, we'll kindly call it "collective consciousness". |
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So with great specificity, tell me what I said that was incorrect. |
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It just seems disingenuous for someone who's usually so keen to promote debate, who talks so readily about freedom of speech and similar ideals to be so easily shut down about opinions they've shared without any apparent critical thought or backup. |
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I would have expected you to have something more to back up the ideas you so readily share here. I am giving you a polite, respectful opportunity to explore those opinions, and really find out what's behind them, dig into something meaningful. |
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If that's not something you're interested in, curious, what are you doing here? What's the purpose of all this? |
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And if there's no purpose, then shouldn't we accept the [marked-for-deletion]? |
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With great specificity, tell me what I said that was incorrect. |
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//With great specificity, tell me what I said that was incorrect.// |
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You've not said anything *coherent*. Only "There are no left wing media outfits and if there where they would not lie?" |
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And then I asked for an example. For some reason, you didn't like that. |
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I gave examples of what I was talking about, and then when you rebutted that, I asked you to give examples of what you're talking about. Seemed fair at the time, no? That list of names isn't from a "brain farm"(???) just a list of people associated with the right-wing-media who have been found criminally liable in the courts for a range of actual crimes. |
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Given you were suggesting that there's an equivalent set of behaviours on the "left", I was interested in finding out what or who they might be, so we could have a civil and fact based conversation and compare points of view. |
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I didn't spot any "puerile insults", and certainly not a fussillade's worth! |
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Seriously, I don't know why you're so touchy. I'm just asking simple questions - none of which should make you feel defensive. You've got an opinion, great - if I ask you to back it up, that's not an attack, it's just showing interest. Please try to chill out in terms of the attacks, I'm really not trying to be unpleasant, but you seem to keep getting the wrong idea. |
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//You've not said anything.// |
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Well then it would be hard to support my point when I didn't make one. |
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Here, I'll get you started, at one point I said: "Run up the debt, feed the military industrial complex, continue the debt slavery of the masses and change the demographic to a more compliant population." |
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So which of those do you think isn't happening? Forget about Tucker Carlson for a minute, I know it's hard, but concentrate. It's only you and me. Focus. |
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And as I've already pointed out, there doesn't need to be one Wizard Of Oz style character behind the curtain pulling all the strings. Things do actually happen without 100% concensus or control of one ruling agent. So my not producing a picture of some guy at a control panel hitting a button that says "Run up the debt" doesn't prove the debt isn't getting run up. |
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And I'll address your referring to "actual crimes" as proof of the evil of "my side". Can you dispute the fact that actual courts in the actual Soviet Russia and Mao's actual China found actual crimes when shipping millions to actual gulags? Yes, courts are run by humans, and humans can be evil. |
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Okay, that being said, go. |
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Not sure why you want to change the subject again, all of a sudden. |
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//"Run up the debt, feed the military industrial complex, continue the debt slavery of the masses and change the demographic to a more compliant population."// |
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Debt is a problem, agreed. |
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The military industrial complex, yep, another problem. |
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Continue debt slavery of the masses - that's kind of number one again, though I guess this means private, rather than public debt. |
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Change the demographic to a more compliant one - not so sure about this one, not seen any evidence of this. If this is true, then so-called "wokeism" would be in conflict with this aim, given all the demonstrations and non-compliance that comes as a result - but again, I'm not sure why we're talking about these random things. |
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I suspect that the 3 things out of that collection of 4 could be things that we could solve with sensible government, but what's frustrating is that we keep getting side-tracked onto these right-wing talking points about trans-issues, or wokeism or whatever, by very, very rich people who have realised that if they get their hands on the keys to power, they can get much, much richer. |
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A good method of getting those keys is to manipulate the media, using some of the methods we were talking about earlier, and doing that means making deals, corrupting the media to seed stories that distract and invent shadows and stories that don't exist, or which misrepresent the facts, to help people get into power who promise they will solve those non-existent problems. Currently, this venal ambition for power appears to be a uniquely "right" wing thing, the traditional right having been eaten by the new-style populist, corrupt right that we see today in the UK and especially in the states. There is no longer any sensible "right" who are interested in (for example) reducing debt. It's all culture wars and corruption these days. |
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And when these types of people get into power, boom, more debt, more industrial complex, more debt slavery. Not good. Bad. It's not sides, it's corruption. |
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I contend that we should be trying to avoid these outcomes, but we keep getting distracted by the right-wing media who are in the pocket (as demonstrated by the evidence I was talking about earlier) of those wealthy individuals whose aim it is to further consolidate their wealth. |
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//Can you dispute the fact that actual courts in the actual Soviet Russia and Mao's actual China found actual crimes when shipping millions to actual gulags? Yes, courts are run by humans, and humans can be evil.// Are you suggesting the American court system is as corrupt as Soviet or Maoist Russia and China? |
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If it's your contention that those 3 things are being deliberately furthered by some deliberate conspiracy, I personally doubt it. |
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They're systemic problems caused by the system we have, and are made worse by the short-termist, populist democratic system we live under. |
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Sadly, that democratic system is egregiously undermined by the weakness/corruption in the media that I was talking about. |
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If you want to solve those weaknesses, then you need to solve the media-weakness first, because currently, that's being exploited to enable extremely wealthy people and foreign governments, who have no interest in solving any of those systemic problems, to exploit the democratic system, and thereby consolidate power. |
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Whoa there cowboy, let's keep it to one question at a time. |
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For starters if you wanna have a debate you might want to start with basically agreeing with almost everthing I said. Nobody wants to watch a football game where the other player says "Here, let me help you cross my goal line." |
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So we'll pick one subject, //we keep getting side-tracked onto these right-wing talking points about trans-issues.// |
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Which is exactly what I've said several times, the only thing you're wrong about is this being a right wing issue. The right didn't bring this up, the left started it, purposefully creating an issue where there wasn't one. Trans adults have been around for a long time. Trans adults dressing and dancing sexually in front of children is new. The "right" obediently reacted, but they were supposed to, this was on purpose, as are all these pornographic childrens books the left are putting out there. I'll assume you don't support this. |
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It's an op, as I've said. Want a new war because the previous president screwed over the militay industrial complex by ending the two wars we were cashing in on in the middle east and preventing one over in North Korea by the hated, unforgivable crime of meeting and discussing a path towards peaceful co-existance? The same guy who told the Chinese leader at a face to face meeting "Hey, I just bombed Putin's troops in Syria, now what were we talking about?" (paraphrasing) thus demonstrating we were not to be fucked with, which is the best way to keep the peace? They did the same thing to Regan when he ended the cold war. You mess with the military industial complex they're coming after you. Luckily they've got their man in office now. 3 wars and counting. And boy is the money (and blood) flowing like never before! Ka-ching!!! |
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So to distract the masses, bring out the trans sex shows for kids. Serves two purposes, distracts, and makes people who never gave a damn about trans people suddenly hate them. Divide and conquer, you see it in everything the globalist elites do, be it race, sex, religion, you name it. Pick your side because we need to all hate each other. |
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Pick a side, where have I heard that very recently? |
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By the way, lots of people complaining about political debates here, maybe we give it a rest. I'm not good at backing off from a challenge so the ball's probably in your court on that one. |
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I know, tell you what, let's call it a draw. |
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//Which is exactly what I've said several times, the only thing you're wrong about is this being a right wing issue. The right didn't bring this up, the left started it, purposefully creating an issue where there wasn't one.// |
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The "left" if there is such a thing, didn't start anything. There might be some teenagers and youth activists somewhere who raised ongoing issues and inequities, but anything further than that has been 100% blown out of all proportion by the right to get people like you angry. |
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//Trans adults dressing and dancing sexually in front of children is new.// I suspect this is bullshit, if it ever did happen in a single instance, sure, close it down, but let's be really honest - this isn't a problem that's happening across America (or anywhere). It makes a *great* story, but it's not a real one. It's simply not happening. |
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// as are all these pornographic childrens books the left are putting out there. I'll assume you don't support this. // No, but I don't support aliens living in my butt either, and that's just as rooted in reality! What pornographic childrens books are these then? Is this another Fox story? Another Info-Wars exclusive? |
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//It's an op// - 100% agreed - it's definitely an op. |
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//Bring out the trans sex shows for kids. Serves two purposes, distracts, and makes people who never gave a dam about trans people suddenly hate them. Divide and conquer, you see it in everything the globalist elites do, be it race, sex, religion, you name it. Pick your side because we need to all hate each other.// |
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I'd suggest that division doesn't help good government, it fouls everything up in contentious pointless debates that stop anything sensible being done. If you don't like division, then why support the people who have been shown to actively promote it? (Fox, Infowars, Breitbart etc?) |
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So, which side are you going to pick? The one with the imaginary trans sex shows? Or the one where people try and solve the national debt? |
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If you want to stop it there, fine by me. I'm not trying to change your mind, just maybe look into things in a bit more depth. We don't need to play that out here. |
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//The "left" if there is such a thing// |
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So there's no left, there's only correct about everything all the time, duh, and the right? |
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//Trans adults dressing and dancing sexually in front of children is new.// I suspect this is bullshit, if it ever did happen in a single instance// |
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Whoa, there are videos, you really need to do your research. And not getting it from me, do it yourself. |
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//So, which side are you going to pick?// |
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My side, I'm not joining yours or any other cult. |
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Post one video. I dare you. And, if there is a single video, it's still not a nationwide epidemic, just some loon who's probably been locked up by now. Doesn't stop Fox making it into a massive deal and politicising it for the $$$. |
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And, if it *is* a nationwide epidemic, nobody's forcing your children to go. Just stay away. |
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What's that got to do with politics is the real question? |
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I nominate this to be the politics thread, and propose no serious politicking take place on any other idea. |
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And I nominate Zen to do his own research, not doing it for him. |
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And at some point we're gonna have to put some money on these things. Gotta be something in it for me. |
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Without some consensus on what's going on, I'm wasting my time responding to repeated "XYZ never happened, and if it did..." statements. |
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You know, occurs to me that whenever I'm talking to the self annointed, they pick my side for me. |
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I actually said the trans thing (that the left started, not the right) was a waste of time and a distraction. Somebody actually thinking outside the mindset of this imagined binary where everybody thinks 100% one way or the opposite might be able to focus on actual issues, not what "side" somebody's on. |
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So since we're in total agreement on that, let's move on to how is your "side" going to pay off the debt like you said. After it ships billions of dollars overseas to totally awesome new wars to civilize Europe, the Middle East and Asia of course. |
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Personally I don't think it's supposed to ever get paid off. That's the debt slavery I was talking about. You have a society crushed under unpayable debt, you control that society. |
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Now if you've got the solution love to hear it. Hopefully it doesn't JUST consist of throwing Tucker Carlson, and those other guys you named in prison, but hey, if you can show how that would work I'd be willing to listen. |
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Fuck! I spent like an hour copy/pasting things and then replying to them to have it just disappear so I'm a bit pissed and you all get to hear it just natural now. |
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Fuck Sharia law!
You want to escape the current shit-hole you are subjected to, then don't try to turn the the place you are escaping to into the same third-world shit-hole you came from. |
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Fuck your prophet and fuck you unless you want to understand personal freedoms. If you don't want to understand personal freedoms then go back to the very shit-hole you are trying to escape! |
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Way'y'go. B-bye. Back where you came from if you don't like freedoms. We ain't taking your shit. You'll see, you don't want to see, but you'll see. |
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Otherwise stop taking over our universities. Stop taking over our roadways. Stop insisting that anybody else should give a shit about what what you claim without-proof is true and chill the fuck out before we decide to run you fuckers out on a rail. |
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'We' aren't doing this jihadist bullshit anymore. Grow the fuck up you stone-the-infedel-apostate pieces of shit. |
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either way, you'll find out. |
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Well... not quite. I will make one more statement. |
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Any man, consenting to having the clitorus, (funny how the word clitorus flags as a misspelling here), removed from their daughters so that their daughter's future husbands don't need to pleasure them in order to keep them faithful... |
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...must be like 'really' insecure.
I am not the most 'well-endowed' of males on the planet, I'm average at best, but I've done my level best to ensure that any female desiring the Frie-ster attained orgasm at least once before I ever considered instituting that reciprocation wouldn't be considered unwanted. |
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It goes a long way. Women able to experience orgasm respond differently when the male gives a shit or not. |
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How does one bring a woman without a clitorus to orgasm?
Why am I subject to death if I become Muslim, (strangely not flagged as misspelling though the word clitorus is in the English dictionary), and then change my mind afterwards? |
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In my opinion , if a book can make you give up basic morality... |
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...then you were already willing to give it up beforehand. |
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By all means, prove me wrong. |
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I suspect the only culture in Canada doing many clit jobs are the parents of "transgender" kids. Wow, 2fries, way to go random. You may also be forgetting the G spot, but then you always do. |
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Although I once read that up to 25% of Canadians had been molested as children. I wonder how that compares to France. |
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And there's the problem, [2 fries] and the reason this idea is [marked-for-deletion]. You're not discussing the idea you've posted; you've turned this idea *into* the idea you posted - a place where you can spout whatever you like about your personal obsessions and what you believe makes you a special person. |
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Since Zen never told me how his "side" was going to fix the debt crisis, maybe they can start by not running up hundreds of billions of dollars in tax payer debt buying votes by having working men and women pay off the debts of students who made bad calls like getting a hundred thousand dollars in debt for a friggin' art degree. |
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He announced a plan for another 150 BILLION taxpayer dollars being used to buy votes from an additional 4.3 million voters. |
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The Supreme Courts just knocked down his ALMOST HALF A TRILLION DOLLAR VOTE BUYING SCAM but the administration is still at it. My favorite part is where even rich kids get taxpayer payoffs, because this is about buying votes, and a rich kid's votes are worth just as much as a struggling poor kid's votes. |
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This after I saved for years to put my daughter through college costing me almost $150,000. Now I'll have to spend the rest of my life paying off other kid's "educations" including ones like this loser that ran up a quarter of a million dollar debt studying VIOLIN. My best friend who played an amazing violin played at clubs on weekends after graduating from Stanford on a full scholarship with a degree in physics and a successful career making big bucks in the video game business. Not by paying some scam college $250,000 to learn how to play in instrument. I made my living in my youth playing an instrument and played to hundreds of thousands of people in my career. How did I learn my instruments? Taught my damn self! |
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So is that how your "side" is gonna fix the debt crisis zen? |
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(2fries) I forgot about that. Pretty gruesome, but important to remember when watching this group wanting to "spread the word." |
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4and20, can we get back to disagreeing about everything? This agreeing on every single point that comes up is getting boring. |
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[doc] I don't have a side, but if forced to choose one, it would tend to be the one that's not steeped in evidence of clear and present corruption. |
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But for the (last time), before you distract by bringing transgender stuff into the conversation again, I'd suggest one path to solving real problems would be to stop all the woke culture-wars that distract from them, and concentrating on solving the problems. |
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You suggest that those distractions come from the left, and I'd point again at how the funded right-wing media are the ones who keep bringing it up. |
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In this conversation,*you* keep bringing it up. Go back and see what you said. |
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If you think it's a distraction, then stop talking about it. You're literally distracting yourself. |
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In terms of possible solutions to some of the real problems you outlined, here's a quote I made in that general direction from yesterday. |
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"I contend that we should be trying to avoid these outcomes, but we keep getting distracted by the right-wing media who are in the pocket (as demonstrated by the evidence I was talking about earlier) of those wealthy individuals whose aim it is to further consolidate their wealth." |
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Not sure why you continue to get upset with someone who's broadly agreeing with you on this. |
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//I don't have a side, but if forced to choose one, it would tend to be the one that's not steeped in evidence of clear and present corruption// |
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How many millions did your guy Biden get from China that went to shell companies that don't even purport to provide any goods or services? |
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And are you aware that evidence just came out that in the case of those boxes shipped to Mar-a-lago with the papers marked "TOP SECRET" thrown all over the floor were brought there by the FBI and they admitted printing them themselves? Don't believe me? Please, look it up for yourself, use any news source you want, but try to use a little critical thinking. |
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That being said, we are in agreement that there's rampant corruption in our government, only difference is I say it's on both sides, but mostly from the Democrat party, you say "your side" is pure as the driven snow. |
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But boy oh boy does that trans distration work. I got real specific about the debt and what did you respond with? |
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This is really frustrating. |
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My point - throughout the entirety of this thing has been to point out the corrupt media that spits out the culture wars. |
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I've got no view either way about Biden, or US fiscal policy. |
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It's got nothing to do with me. |
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And, it's none of my business. |
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But the argument I've been making all this time, has been the same. You've been having a different collection of random arguments, which seems to explain the lurching from one topic to the next without a coherent or consistent thread or point. |
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OK, I get that you don't like Joe Biden. But that's not really what I was talking about. To fix debt, you spend less. Or, you increase growth and taxes. But that's just the latest topic of your wildly swinging conversation which seems to be only about supporting your team. I get that. |
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I'm not going to try and get through any more, because it's largely going around in circles. |
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