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Shotgun

Enhanced Lethality Round
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This is somewhat of a strange idea, but field tests convince me it has promise: Instead of your old buckshot round that slows over distance, and the pattern opens wide. Several cone shaped pellets made of steel similar in shape to what you find screwed on the end of pens as the basic shell. The interior is filled with lead. The force of this traveling through the air at ballistic speed allows most of the pellets to hit point first. More energy concentrated on a smaller area. Another possibility I'm trying to design is "dimpling" a .69" caliber round ball has dimples imbedded into the lead. The effect is like a golf ball, the dimples break up the air, and allow for more range, or in some cases more energy delivery at closer range.
LibertyMarch, Jul 01 2006

flechettes http://www.antipers....net/sdllc/007.html
little shot gun darts [ye_river_xiv, Jul 02 2006]

[link]






       So, not a gun at all?
coprocephalous, Jul 01 2006
  

       Care to explain the term //ballistic speed// ?
monojohnny, Jul 01 2006
  

       I was under the impression that the dimples on a golf ball only had an effect if the ball was spinning - causing lift. Also, how would you ensure the pellets leave the gun point first, or are you expecting them to magically align with the airflow?
spandit, Jul 01 2006
  

       Spandit, the dimples on a golf ball "break up the air" and allow it to travel further. Spinning is another matter--I don't know if they help or hurt the Magnus lift. Dimples should help a round lead ball to travel further. (It has something to do with laminar flow--look it up.)   

       As concerns the shaped pellets--go get some pellet gun pellets and put them in a shotgun shell. See if they hit front first. The cone-shaped pellets will probably cause more drag than they are worth. I don't think they'll hit point first unless the lead is all down in the pointy end.
baconbrain, Jul 01 2006
  

       how are pointy pellets more lethal than just standard buckshot? it's not like a point really matters at the speeds that are being achieved.   

       the buckshot allows for simpler loading, and the ability to fit more into the shell. if you have to orient the shot, it removes you ability to use standard mechanical loaders for loading a shell.   

       [liberty], shot disperses in order to cover a wider area for a reason. if you've ever shot skeet you'll realize that if you were trying to hit a moving target with a single shot or a tight group, you'd be out of luck. if you want to shoot a single bullet out of a shotgun, you can use shells that already have a single bullet in them. it would be easier and less complicated all around if you just got a rifle.
tcarson, Jul 01 2006
  

       Yes, a cone shape will naturally travel nose-first. It does tend to "hunt" a bit. It travels nose-first because of the extreme drag of the skirt edge of the cone. You can fix that by going longer & skinnier - and then you're more than halfway to re-inventing the flechette.
lurch, Jul 02 2006
  

       The dimpled shot is interesting. Buckshot often contains only a few large round shot. If dimpling produced more range by reducing drag this would be a real invention. It should not be super difficult to test. [Liberty], if you do try the dimpling scheme please report back.
bungston, Jul 02 2006
  

       Normally, I favor less lethal weapons, but I always did want more options when it came to shotgun ammo.   

       Would the golf ball dimples be used mainly on slugs? that could be a good improvement, if it works.
ye_river_xiv, Jul 02 2006
  

       in response to a suggestion that I should purchase a rifle. I would point out that shotguns I use are intended for short range im not trying to hit farther than 50-75 yd. The whole point of my quest is to produce rounds with high velocity, and more impact energy over the distance im trying to shoot. Loading a shotgun shell is actually quite simple, when one has the right equipment. In responding to the question about using the "dimples" on the slugs, yes the dimples are intended for the slug itself, as dimpling anything small such as buckshot pellets would be difficult. Another thing that would be interesting to see is what the wound will be like. I welcome suggestions about how I could go about including the dimples in the mold to try this idea.   

       Silas L
LibertyMarch, Jul 03 2006
  

       My latest idea that i am toying with is a hollow lead ball slug, hollow in the center but about 1/8" thick. It should flatten on impact quite a bit and make for less over pentration, and less recoil. I am open to suggestions as always. Any ideas how to mold a hollow lead ball?   

       Silas L
LibertyMarch, Jul 03 2006
  

       //Enhanced Lethality Round// Is that a Bush-ism? Why, good god why, would you want to make guns MORE dangerous? Isn't there enough pain in the world already?
kuupuuluu, Jul 03 2006
  

       [Lib] - do not be discouraged about the bones. The [HB] has a large contingent which is gun unfriendly because of what guns represent. Read some of the other attempts in the gun category and you will see this to be true. .   

       Dimples in the mold: affix small hemispheres of a higher melting point metal to the interior of the mold. However, this entails a lot of mold manipulation, which you only want to do if the idea works. Here is my suggestion to test your idea, if you have the inclination.   

       Purchase some large round shot. Rubber buckshot might serve well. Hold the shot in a vice and make the indentations by hand. You could use a dremel tool and burr them in, or you could melt them in (to rubber or lead) with something hot like a solder gun. I think the dremel tool on a frozen ball would be best because the dust will fall away. This will be a little laborious, but I bet it will be under 5 minutes per ball and faster once you get good.   

       As regards pointed projectiles, it looks like shotgun slugs are already pointed, or at least some makes are. No doubt they are more aerodynamic. I am not sure that translates into a larger or worse wound.   

       As regards hollow bullets, I think you are right that they will transfer more energy to the target. However, by hollowing the bullet you sacrifice mass and consequent energy to transfer. I can only imagine thie being an issue for something like a sniper rifle, where the bullet must be very fast and aerodynamic to travel the required distance, and thus also carries a risk of penetrating clear through and transferring little energy to the target. I understand that the makers of the M16 addressed this problem by making the bullet slightly asymmetrical, causing it to "tumble" on touching the target. I do not think any of this stuff is really news. Hollowpoint bullets have been around for a while, and although I think they work to slow the bullet by increasing the shockwave at its tip, the principle is the same.   

       Lets keep the topic to golf balls fired from shotguns, shall we? I think that is a good question and might produce a real and useful invention.
bungston, Jul 03 2006
  

       //Another possibility I'm trying to design is "dimpling" a .69" caliber round ball has dimples imbedded into the lead. The effect is like a golf ball, the dimples break up the air, and allow for more range, or in some cases more energy delivery at closer range.//   

       Well, you pretty much summed it up right there; why waste your time on posting it again?
jellydoughnut, Jul 07 2006
  

       how about a gun that fires soap and dishwater....?? you point it at the sink full of dishes and fire.   

       Unless they do something extraordinary, guns are just tiresome.
xenzag, Jul 07 2006
  

       [bungston], if i could play a ound of golf with a shotgun, i'd be in.
tcarson, Jul 09 2006
  

       Have you considered just hammering on the lead ball to get the dimpled effect? Or even dropping it repeatedly on a rough surface (maybe something like 40 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper)? Its worth a shot (pun intended).   

       And as far as hollow shot, maybe try to mold them one half at a time. take half of a regular mold, fill with molten lead, wait untill it has cooled but is still soft, and mash the rounded end of an object into the center. Trim the excess lead, then but two of these pieces together, apply some heat to bond them, and there you go. Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.
Hunter79764, Jul 09 2006
  

       dimples trigger production of a turbulent layer over a moving object, and in the case of golf balls (travelling at "golf" speeds) reduce drag. It's counter-intuitive, but turbulent air has lower drag in the case of spheres, some other ballistic shapes as well. I'm just about certain that spin is not the influencing factor. I'm not sure exactly how scalable the effect is, and also at what maximum velocity you'd experience the reduction in drag. I'd say it's definitely worth a shot, if not for buck-sized shot, then at least for 0.69 (or whatever the size is) single-ball type shot.   

       please let us know how it goes, I'm actually quite interested. [+]
Custardguts, Jul 11 2006
  
      
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